Turning an idea into a product?

[onearmedbandit]

Hey peoples, yes I know I could google it but rather than sifting through 2,675,478 pages of shit, I thought I'd ask here as surely someone here can help, and with relevant NZ input.

So the gist is I have an idea for a product that I can see being affordable to everyone that would have a need for it, solves a problem, is easy to use etc etc etc. I haven't drawn up plans for it yet, I've been going over it in my head for the past month and this morning I think I stumbled onto how to make it work easily. So what do I do? If it's as good as I think it is I want to protect my idea. Then I'll need someone (an engineer) to knock one together for me (once I've got the final design sussed), then if it's all go I guess I'm going to need some capital behind me to start manufacturing.

So where do I start?


(Man I feel like a bit of a 'dreamer' with this idea, but it's just me being cynical towards myself, if someone else came to me with this I'd think it's a goer...)

[Pussy]

Not this, is it, Fraser?? :)


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[onearmedbandit]

Ah fuck, beaten to the punch by Mr Bean.

No, no it's not lol.

[mashman]

We googled for a while to find someone who may be able to manufacture what we're looking at. Next step is to go and have a "chat" with them (currenty sweating over wether to patent or not), and then see if we can get it to market, or at least climb aboard shanks pony and try to find a market or two...

It'll be interesting to watch the thread, and iffen we find out anything useful along the way, then we'll post it up :).... good luck OAB

[onearmedbandit]

Thanks mashman. Yeah I figured getting it made would be the first step before obtaining a patent, but what's to stop the outfit that makes it from making their own version if the idea isn't patented?

[bogan]

Does dragon's den still run?

Not too sure, but if you figure it out let me know! If it's simple/affordable it may be fairly easy to knock a prototype together? get different people to make different bits if you are worried about IP. If it's motorcycle related and you want an engineers opionion, in confidence, give me a PM.

[mashman]

Thanks mashman. Yeah I figured getting it made would be the first step before obtaining a patent, but what's to stop the outfit that makes it from making their own version if the idea isn't patented?

:rofl: aye, same dilemma here. Oh to have such trust in people eh... you go first, if you get shafted we'll patent ours :shifty:

[bogan]

Thanks mashman. Yeah I figured getting it made would be the first step before obtaining a patent, but what's to stop the outfit that makes it from making their own version if the idea isn't patented?

Ideally, ethics, good luck with that shit these days though! I've heard from workmates that patenting is tricky buisness, as long as anothers design is 10% (iirc) different, it's all good. And if it's still in the design stages, chances are your own stuff will be 10% different by the end. Also, if you don't write the patent properly, it becomes way easier to bypass.

[onearmedbandit]

Does dragon's den still run?

Not too sure, but if you figure it out let me know! If it's simple/affordable it may be fairly easy to knock a prototype together? get different people to make different bits if you are worried about IP. If it's motorcycle related and you want an engineers opionion, in confidence, give me a PM.

If Dragon's Den was still running I'd be up there in a flash. I've just drawn out a basic plan of it, and it appears that it will work as designed. Good idea about getting different people to make the different pieces. Ideally it's going to be a singular complete unit, but the prototype could easily be made of 4 or 5 separate components.

[ac3_snow]

"What is Innovate! Manawatu?

Some of you might have heard about this initiative or seen our posters going up around campus. This inventors/entrepreneurs competition is brought to you by the BCC and Palmerston North City Council with the aim of developing sustainable business in the Manawatu. Massey University is one of our four key sponsors (Innovation Partners), the others being The Radio Network, Manawatu Standard and Jumprope.

Over March-May 2011 inclusive we’re looking for people with great ideas for an invention, business or service who want the opportunity to access the resources and support to make their idea real. There is a $20,000 cash prize up for grabs for the winning entry and other minor prizes too. Innovate! Manawatu is all about helping people turn their ideas into thriving business. The competition is open to anyone - inventors, scientists, students, researchers, garage inventors and of course you!

See our website www.innovatemanawatu.co.nz for details."
234426

I'm organising something similar on the Albany Massey campus up here, but what I'm doing is just for students. From what I understand the event in Manawatu is open to any and everyone, sure they wouldn't mind long distance entries either.

surely $20,000 would help getcha goin?!

[trumpy]

I used to, along with a friend, have a Technolgy Transfer company alongside our other business activities. We eventually gave it up because the inventors nearly drove us nuts! Most were hugely unrealistic about what they were going to get out of it, especially if they were getting paid royalties, which is often the way if you have no cash of your own to invest. We spent 6 months trying to convince an inventor that after the investor had fronted up with US$60,000 for the worldwide patent, another US$350,000 in manufacturing set up costs and that much again for marketing he was unlikely to get 50% of net profit as a royalty (the accepted figure being closer to 6% to 8%). 100% of nothing is still nothing which what he now has.
Having said that you can go in "softly, softly" yourself and control as much of the process as you can.
Patents costs are considerable and not worth the cost unless you are pretty sure about the product. Design copyright is much cheaper and quite effective. To further protect yourself never give one company the job to produce the whole prototype. Split it up and give different parts to different companies so no one gets to see the complete product except you. This should be no problem if the parts have been drawn up properly.
If the product manufacture is going to require tooling this could add considerably to the prototype cost and needs to be factored into the manufacturing cost. We have always preferred to own our tooling so, should a manufacturer not deliver to spec, you can go somewhere else.
There's lots more to this process that you need to know and I will try to add some more when I get a spare moment.

[onearmedbandit]

surely $20,000 would help getcha goin?!

$20,000 would surely help, although call me paranoid but I'm hesitant to put my idea out in the public domain yet without full control on it. The idea is so simple, so obvious that really I'm surprised it hasn't been done before, well at least from my searching it hasn't.

[Daffyd]

Get a good patents lawyer.

[bogan]

"What is Innovate! Manawatu?

Some of you might have heard about this initiative or seen our posters going up around campus. This inventors/entrepreneurs competition is brought to you by the BCC and Palmerston North City Council with the aim of developing sustainable business in the Manawatu. Massey University is one of our four key sponsors (Innovation Partners), the others being The Radio Network, Manawatu Standard and Jumprope.

Over March-May 2011 inclusive we’re looking for people with great ideas for an invention, business or service who want the opportunity to access the resources and support to make their idea real. There is a $20,000 cash prize up for grabs for the winning entry and other minor prizes too. Innovate! Manawatu is all about helping people turn their ideas into thriving business. The competition is open to anyone - inventors, scientists, students, researchers, garage inventors and of course you!

See our website www.innovatemanawatu.co.nz for details."
234426

I'm organising something similar on the Albany Massey campus up here, but what I'm doing is just for students. From what I understand the event in Manawatu is open to any and everyone, sure they wouldn't mind long distance entries either.

surely $20,000 would help getcha goin?!

:lol: fuck I need to get out of my office (manawatu massey) more, first I've heard about this. Will have to look into that :yes:

[Swoop]

A mate did something similar a year or so back.
He came up with a much improved model of a piece of racing hardware.
He engineered the prototype himself and then took it to an engineer with cnc equipment.
There were 3-4 evolutions created which solved problems and developed the idea. They lived under his bench in a cardboard box (useless in reality, but served their purpose).
He did not patent or copyright the product! The reasons were that the chinese could steal it easily & legal action would be a waste of money trying to pin the fuckers down. (Lawyers being the only winners).
He used the product heavily in his sport and other orders came in.
In the end an Australian company who has a global market came along. After protracted negotiations they bought him and a partner out, requiring ALL documentation, plans, prototypes and even computer hard drives.
Financially he did very well.

[onearmedbandit]

Thanks Trumpy. I came up with this idea to solve a problem that affected me, then I realised it could be sold and money could be made. Unlike your experiences if someone offered to front the costs I'd be happy to receive that 6-8%. If however I need to source my own funding then I'll be expecting to be fully in control.

As far as tooling goes I really don't see too much involved. 90% of it is very straight forward, the last 10% isn't overly complex but it will need further developing before it's turned into a working product.

[onearmedbandit]

A mate did something similar a year or so back.
He came up with a much improved model of a piece of racing hardware.
................<snip>..........
In the end an Australian company who has a global market came along. After protracted negotiations they bought him and a partner out, requiring ALL documentation, plans, prototypes and even computer hard drives.
Financially he did very well.

Thanks Swoop. I'd be quite happy for this to scenario to play out the same way your mates did, wouldn't we all though.

Keep the feedback coming peoples, I'm learning lots and getting more enthused about it all by the minute, which funnily enough is stressing me out more and more by the minute...

[Buyasta]

He did not patent or copyright the product! The reasons were that the chinese could steal it easily & legal action would be a waste of money trying to pin the fuckers down. (Lawyers being the only winners).
I think this is a fairly good point, a patent will only get you so far - even if you get one you'll still get Chinese clones if it's successful, and for that matter even in countries with strong patent laws, some companies will ignore patents if they can make more profit off a product than it'll cost them in legal fees, as evidenced by this (http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101007/full/news.2010.525.html) charming display of how "ethical big business" need not be an oxymoron. :rolleyes:


We considered patenting; we prepared a patent and it was nearly filed. Then I had an interaction with a big, multinational electronics company. I approached a guy at a conference and said, "We've got this patent coming up, would you be interested in sponsoring it over the years?" It's quite expensive to keep a patent alive for 20 years. The guy told me, "We are looking at graphene, and it might have a future in the long term. If after ten years we find it's really as good as it promises, we will put a hundred patent lawyers on it to write a hundred patents a day, and you will spend the rest of your life, and the gross domestic product of your little island, suing us." That's a direct quote.

[Swoop]

I think this is a fairly good point, a patent will only get you so far
Quite so. The renewal fees associated with the patent add up over the years...

[bogan]

Another question for those in the know about patenting, what happens when you don't bother, can somebody else recreate and patent your shit (i'm guessing/hoping not) and what about them patenting possible obvious developments to what you design?

[steve_t]

Check out the Intellectual Property Office

http://www.iponz.govt.nz/cms

[tigertim20]

Thanks mashman. Yeah I figured getting it made would be the first step before obtaining a patent, but what's to stop the outfit that makes it from making their own version if the idea isn't patented?

Interesting thread. I would start by looking into what exactly you need to do to Obtain a patent. You may not actually need to have a working prototype to get the patent, if thats the case, then sweet, do the design etc and get the patent.

Second option, is approach a company that would be capable of building one for you. Have a lawyer write up a contract that states the following basics.
Its YOUR idea, and this company will build the prototype for you, AND AGREES TO NOT STEAL THE IDEA, and in return, if you can get it into production, they have the first right of refusal for mass production. You may even find they will provide the capital required to get it up and running, OR even buy the idea off you altogether.

Id be looking at patent stuff first though, that narrows down your second step alot more.

Good luck!

[CookMySock]

Split it up and give different parts to different companies so no one gets to see the complete product except you.Until the chinks buy one and reverse-engineer it, like they have done with everything else. :(

[Maha]

I had an idea years ago..coffee bags! like tea bags only with coffee..most around me at the time laughed and asked why?
I see now you can buy coffee bags.

My other idea of having rear view mirrors stuck the a riders helmet so the pillion can see whats going on behind has yet to be taken seriously.

[oneofsix]

I had an idea years ago..coffee bags! like tea bags only with coffee..most around me at the time laughed and asked why?
I see now you can buy coffee bags.

My other idea of having rear view mirrors stuck the a riders helmet so the pillion can see whats going on behind has yet to be taken seriously.

Don't let those who lack your imagination put you off. Though the reviw mirrors for pillions could use some work :rolleyes:

[Drunken Monkey]

Thanks mashman. Yeah I figured getting it made would be the first step before obtaining a patent, but what's to stop the outfit that makes it from making their own version if the idea isn't patented?

A good contract should stop that, even without a specific patent on the idea you can protect the work that is done for you.

[Drunken Monkey]

Another question for those in the know about patenting, what happens when you don't bother, can somebody else recreate and patent your shit (i'm guessing/hoping not) and what about them patenting possible obvious developments to what you design?

In short, yes. You can have it changed through lengthy legal proceedings if you've got good evidence that you came up with the idea before them (dated drafts, written communication with others discussing key points), and even then you'll have to prove they didn't independently come up with the idea.
In short the advice from patent lawyers is no matter how expensive it looks to do the patent paper work early, it's always cheaper than trying to work out a mess later.

A couple of my friends work at Baldwins if someone does need a contact in patent law.

[Drunken Monkey]

Don't let those who lack your imagination put you off. Though the reviw mirrors for pillions could use some work :rolleyes:

Imagine what one of those would do to your neck if it catches on something (like when you fall off in an accident)!

There's already a trade off with helmets, there's still an outside chance the extra weight of the bloody thing on your head can increase the trauma to your neck. I want my helmet to reduce my injuries, not make them worse.

Unless of course your mirrors are small, close to the eye and inside the helmet. Maybe fibre optics through the shell to redirect the image. But stuck on the outside? No effing way.

[Maha]

Imagine what one of those would do to your neck if it catches on something (like when you fall off in an accident)!

There's already a trade off with helmets, there's still an outside chance the extra weight of the bloody thing on your head can increase the trauma to your neck. I want my helmet to reduce my injuries, not make them worse.

Unless of course your mirrors are small, close to the eye and inside the helmet. Maybe fibre optics through the shell to redirect the image. But stuck on the outside? No effing way.

Yet another detractor...:rolleyes:

[steve_t]

My other idea of having rear view mirrors stuck the a riders helmet so the pillion can see whats going on behind has yet to be taken seriously.

Those bastards at Reevu stole your idea and modified it. Sue them :spanking:

I'm sure a mirror stuck to the back of my helmet would only lead to my pillion looking at herself :rolleyes:

[Maha]

Those bastards at Reevu stole your idea and modified it. Sue them :spanking:

I'm sure a mirror stuck to the back of my helmet would only lead to my pillion looking at herself :rolleyes:

I tried one of those helmets on last week, they work, but not for me sorry.
And yes, the constant adjusting of the mirrors would be a concern for the rider.
Mmmmmm didn't think of that.

[steve_t]

I tried one of those helmets on last week, they work, but not for me sorry.


Yeah? Too distracting? Glare from the sun behind? Don't want to look at your pillion's face? :Pokey:

[Drunken Monkey]

Yet another detractor...:rolleyes:

Don't let me stop you. I'm sure you'll make millions.

[Grasshopperus]

Another question for those in the know about patenting, what happens when you don't bother, can somebody else recreate and patent your shit (i'm guessing/hoping not) and what about them patenting possible obvious developments to what you design?

if you don't bother to patent and you actually start producing the product then if someone else tries to patent it you'll have a case of "prior art". If you can demonstrate that the product existed before the patent was lodged then you can overturn the patent application or ruling.

Patents cost heaps and don't actually protect your idea. You still have to go out and "sue" other people if they're stealing your idea. So you have to budget not just for the patenting fee but also any cost involved in defending it (if defending it is even possible, try forcing a foreign company to stop making your product in Asia or Eastern Europe).

Another byproduct of applying for a product is that your design is out there for the world to see; checkout http://www.google.com/patents for example, here's a patent for a guided missile http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=TH0XAAAAEBAJ it's not enough to get one made but it's a nice headstart eh. If you don't patent it, and no designs are available then at least the competition has to go through the lengthy process of reversing the design. No one commits to tooling without prototypes, trial-and-error, testing etc. this takes time. A product in hand AND design documents makes that sort of thing a lot easier for the bastards.

[Brian d marge]

Cant help with how , but can say "do it"

My idea is of Earthquake proof survival office furniture ! when u dive under your desk its a survival capsule , strong enough to take a big ole beam falling on it , equipped with mobile phone charger and water and food

good luck

Stephen

[Swoop]

Patents cost heaps and don't actually protect your idea. You still have to go out and "sue" other people if they're stealing your idea.
Interestingly Frank Whittle (inventor of the jet engine) took out patents on a lot of his ideas.
They were published and gave the Germans lots of good ideas for their version.
Long story short... his investors made a good return but he got nothing.

[imdying]

My idea is of Earthquake proof survival office furniture ! when u dive under your desk its a survival capsule , strong enough to take a big ole beam falling on itYou mean like a coffin? :laugh:

[Banditbandit]

Thanks mashman. Yeah I figured getting it made would be the first step before obtaining a patent, but what's to stop the outfit that makes it from making their own version if the idea isn't patented?

Talk to a patent lawyer first - it's not as hard to get a patent as you think. I understand you just need to have enough information to clearly identify your idea and distinguish it from similar ideas. Then, an engineer who makes the prototype can't steal your idea.


If Dragon's Den was still running I'd be up there in a flash. I've just drawn out a basic plan of it, and it appears that it will work as designed. Good idea about getting different people to make the different pieces. Ideally it's going to be a singular complete unit, but the prototype could easily be made of 4 or 5 separate components.

A basic plan is all you need to apply for a patent.

[Brett]

I think this is a fairly good point, a patent will only get you so far - even if you get one you'll still get Chinese clones if it's successful, and for that matter even in countries with strong patent laws, some companies will ignore patents if they can make more profit off a product than it'll cost them in legal fees, as evidenced by this (http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101007/full/news.2010.525.html) charming display of how "ethical big business" need not be an oxymoron. :rolleyes:

Intellectual property theft or re-engineering around the patent is a really big problem. There are really 3 ways that this can be managed:

1) Be particularly vigilant about who you use for design and manufacturing processes so that your IP is protected. However, once your product is on the market, the minute a Chinese company takes an interest in copying it, patent or none, it will be copied and on the market within a week.

2) Spend vast sums of money designing intellectual property and patent security and then be ready to very very vigilantly protect it. However, not all that difficult to circumvent.

3) Be very good at designing the marketing of the product. Marketing is more than just advertising, it is the all encompassing way in which your product, company and brand image is perceived by the market. Everything about the product from its design, aesthetics, the augmented product, customer service EVERYTHING needs to be very well stitched together providing an image of authenticity, value and quality. This is not as hard to do as it sounds, in essence it is about ensuring that the product and business is designed to be and continues to be, better than the competition.

Let those who are the target market be in no doubt that it is the original, the genuine article, designed and manufactured by someone like them who had the same need to be filled and sought to do it in the best way possible. They didn't copy someone else's design to make a quick buck.

A golf club designed by Nike or whoever, released today can be copied (bloody well too, that most would never know the difference) and on the market by this time next week. What keeps people buying the genuine article..? The perceived value carefully created by Nike through marketing.

Clearly from the undertones of what I have written above, I am a protagonist for option 3. (partially based on experience and learning).

However, choosing the likes of option three does not mean that you forego the other elements. Instead, you would combine the three but with a clear focus on the marketing element.

See www.obo.co.nz for a company that achieved all of this pretty well. Simon the owner is a product design genius and lectures in Marketing for Massey University.

Good luck!

FYI If you would like to have a confidential (I would suggest that any consultants engineers etc that you chat to sign confidentiality agreements!!) chat re: your product etc feel free to PM me. I am going through something similar at the moment.

Cheers

Brett

[Brett]

Interestingly Frank Whittle (inventor of the jet engine) took out patents on a lot of his ideas.
They were published and gave the Germans lots of good ideas for their version.
Long story short... his investors made a good return but he got nothing.

There are people (businessmen and lawyers) who make a living from filing patents and sueing for breach of said patents when someone develops something too similar to their patent. IE...easy way to get royalties from someone else's hard work and risk taking.

[onearmedbandit]

Thanks for all your input peoples. I've managed to get an investor on board with my idea (albeit slightly adapted but not changed) and we are now in the process of getting a complete unit made up. I've made a mock-up of it and it appears to work perfectly. Next step is actually getting the finished product into our hands and onto showroom floors. Stay tuned. I'm quite excited about this, but am also prepared that it may not come to fruition. But hey if you don't try...

[steve_t]

Let us know if you need more investors. I'd be happy to sign a confidentiality agreement to look at the concept. If you're all good for capital, I can't wait to see it. Hopefully, it'll sell like hotcakes!

[onearmedbandit]

PM sent thanks.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Next step is actually getting the finished product into our hands and onto showroom floors. Stay tuned. I'm quite excited about this, but am also prepared that it may not come to fruition. But hey if you don't try...

Awesome! Best of luck with it mate!

[CookMySock]

Interestingly Frank Whittle (inventor of the jet engine) took out patents on a lot of his ideas. They were published and gave the Germans lots of good ideas for their version. Long story short... his investors made a good return but he got nothing.Maybe all this is the reason the patent scheme was invented? Everyone seems to accept that the patent scheme was introduced for inventors by inventors, to protect inventors - but is this the truth?

Perhaps it was introduced by big business for big business to protect big business? It sure seems that inventors are better served to keep their big mouth shut than publish their idea in excruciating detail for all and sundry to read. :woohoo:

[oneofsix]

Maybe all this is the reason the patent scheme was invented? Everyone seems to accept that the patent scheme was introduced for inventors by inventors, to protect inventors - but is this the truth?

Perhaps it was introduced by big business for big business to protect big business? It sure seems that inventors are better served to keep their big mouth shut than publish their idea in excruciating detail for all and sundry to read. :woohoo:

Invented to encourage inventors but hi-jacked by big business and governments. Like anything good and well meaning will be hi-jack by those only interested in money and/or power.

[Brett]

Thanks for all your input peoples. I've managed to get an investor on board with my idea (albeit slightly adapted but not changed) and we are now in the process of getting a complete unit made up. I've made a mock-up of it and it appears to work perfectly. Next step is actually getting the finished product into our hands and onto showroom floors. Stay tuned. I'm quite excited about this, but am also prepared that it may not come to fruition. But hey if you don't try...

Well done mate, hope it all comes together!

[onearmedbandit]

Dropped the plans off to the fabricator today, should have version 1.0 in my hand<s>s</s> by the end of next week. Then it'll be a small matter of assembly and trial. I fully expect to have to further refine the design, but that doesn't deter me at all.

[onearmedbandit]

Picked it up today, well the 3 main components anyway. Wow this is quite cool, I've created something tangible from just a rough sketch on the back of an old envelope. The stage I'm at now is trialling it in it's basic form before committing to this design. I've identified one area where I want to slightly modify it, thanks to it's design this is an easy mod.

Full steam ahead.

[DrunkenMistake]

Picked it up today, well the 3 main components anyway. Wow this is quite cool, I've created something tangible from just a rough sketch on the back of an old envelope. The stage I'm at now is trialling it in it's basic form before committing to this design. I've identified one area where I want to slightly modify it, thanks to it's design this is an easy mod.

Full steam ahead.
Awesome man, I cant wait to see what it is!

[steve_t]

Awesome man, I cant wait to see what it is!

Me too. This had better be exciting, amazing, and innovative!! No pressure :innocent:

[bogan]

:2thumbsup watching with interest :wait: