Quality of IT contractors? Expectations?

[Oakie]

We are too small a company to have an IT person so we have a guy who runs an IT service come in when we have problems. Great guy and not at all your IT geek stereotype.

He's not the most reliable timekeeper though and when he says he'll be in Thursday afternoon that usually means Friday afternoon. We accept that though and he is always prompt when we have a critical issue (like server not happy post-earthquake).

Not really a great invoicer but does give us a good rate and seems to charge not by how long something did take when there are problems but by how long something should have taken if it had gone smoothly. So we accept that too.

He knows his stuff but sometimes things things seem to take a few days to get finished. He does go the extra mile though and even became a distributor of a product so he could try it on our system to solve a problem so we accept his slow and steady approach which we think comes about due to a large customer base.

What are your expectations or experiences of these 'sole-trader' guys if you have used them? Should we expect more - count ourselves lucky - accept what we have?

[Smifffy]

So what is the problem?

[Usarka]

Poor at managing expectations, poor record keeping, can't tell you how long something will take...... He sounds exactly like a stereotypical IT geek.

[KiWiP]

Have you told him your expectations?

He may not be aware that his delays cause you real problems. He's a supplier, you are his client. It's your responsibility to tell him what you expect and his to deliver. If he can't meet your demands find a new geek or pay him more money to push yourself up his priority list

[firefighter]

Poor at managing expectations, poor record keeping, can't tell you how long something will take...... He sounds exactly like a stereotypical IT geek.

He sounds like a mechanic! hahahahaha :rolleyes: (well, the exception being that a mechanic will charge you more than it should cost).

[Latte]

Sounds unmotivated. He exchanges cheap rates and going the extra mile for not being pressured. He probably walks away from customers that "need it now" (even though they dont).

If it's truly critical, does he make the effort? That's the decider.

It's how I operated :D

[Smifffy]

Have you told him your expectations?

He may not be aware that his delays cause you real problems. He's a supplier, you are his client. It's your responsibility to tell him what you expect and his to deliver. If he can't meet your demands find a new geek or pay him more money to push yourself up his priority list


Yeah I was thinking that last bit too, perhaps a monthly 'retainer fee' or something?

[Usarka]

He's a supplier, you are his client. It's your responsibility to tell him what you expect and his to deliver.

WTF - who do you work for? I'll make a note to avoid dealing them....

A customer should not have to tell a supplier to be on time or deliver something when they say they will. It's called being professional. A concept that a lot of IT people can't fathom.

[KiWiP]

A customer should not have to tell a supplier to be on time or deliver something when they say they will. It's called being professional. A concept that a lot of IT people can't fathom.

True but if he's turned up a little late, then later then ridiculously late and nobody says anything he may think it's OK. I agree it's a fucked up way to run your business but if you're unhappy with the service you have to tell the supplier. That's my point. And yes many IT guys are wankey demigods but many (like my guy at work) are absolute diamond geezers.

[Mental Trousers]

Critical shit gets dealt with in a timely manner, that's really all that matters. Anything else is inconvenient, but someone else will charge you twice his rate and log all the time on your calls, travel, researching the problem etc. You will end up with a much, much larger bill from someone more professional.

Usually, you get what you pay for, but it sounds like you're getting more than your money's worth (mainly in unbilled time). Go to someone else and their invoices will make your eyes water. Give him a hurry up and he might just move on cos he doesn't want the hassle.

[Oakie]

So what is the problem?
One job has taken a few weeks to work through and questions are being posed from above as to whether he is the best we can get.


Poor at managing expectations, poor record keeping, can't tell you how long something will take...... He sounds exactly like a stereotypical IT geek. Ok. He's not a nerd then. Good bloke to have a beer with type of fella. Explains tech stuff in plain English and doesn't come off all superior.


Have you told him your expectations? He may not be aware that his delays cause you real problems. Good point.


If it's truly critical, does he make the effort? That's the decider. :D
Yes he does. Bottom line is that if the server goes down I'm confident of same day service


Yeah I was thinking that last bit too, perhaps a monthly 'retainer fee' or something? That is something we discussed today. Thought we might get him to give us a regular monthly 3 hour 'system maintenance' session.

Wow. 'multi-quote' rocks!

[MaxCannon]

What does your contract with him say ?
We have contract clients and casual clients.
Contract clients go on a plan, have service agreements, get priority treatment.
Casual clients get things done when we have time.

My experience of one man bands is that we end up cleaning up after them. They don't maintain any documentation, often don't follow best practise and generally don't give good response times.
There are of course exceptions.

I'd suggest if you rely on your computers to run the business you need a managed service provider.
You'll get a contract and pay a set fee for a set level of service.

We have 3 plans, standard, professional and premium.
At the top level everything is included and you say :jump: we say "how high?".
But we don't operate in Christchurch, only the North Island.

[Oakie]

Critical shit gets dealt with in a timely manner, that's really all that matters. Anything else is inconvenient, but someone else will charge you twice his rate and log all the time on your calls, travel, researching the problem etc. You will end up with a much, much larger bill from someone more professional.

Usually, you get what you pay for, but it sounds like you're getting more than your money's worth (mainly in unbilled time). Go to someone else and their invoices will make your eyes water. Give him a hurry up and he might just move on cos he doesn't want the hassle.

Pretty much my personal opinion too. Good to hear someone else express it.
The situation may possibly our fault a little for assuming he would realise that a particular job was critical to us because of it's nature when perhaps we should have said 'this is critical'.

[Oakie]

What does your contract with him say ?
We have contract clients and casual clients.
Contract clients go on a plan, have service agreements, get priority treatment.
Casual clients get things done when we have time. .

No contract. I guess we'd be a casual client as we only get him when we need something. We are a not-for-profit so a proper contracted service or a hosted service is probably a bit out of our budget.

[Smifffy]

Pretty much my personal opinion. Good to hear someone else express it.
The situation may possibly our fault a little for assuming he would realise that a particular job was critical to us because of it's nature when perhaps we should have said 'this is critical'.

Yeah, because that problem wasn't apparent in your 1st post.

Still you may tell him you need it a bit sooner, and he may still walk, or he may say "yeah it's a real pita of a job, but I know this dude who could help me out for a day or two and we could knock it off, if the budget stretches..."

[jonbuoy]

We are too small a company to have an IT person so we have a guy who runs an IT service come in when we have problems. Great guy and not at all your IT geek stereotype.

He's not the most reliable timekeeper though and when he says he'll be in Thursday afternoon that usually means Friday afternoon. We accept that though and he is always prompt when we have a critical issue (like server not happy post-earthquake).

Not really a great invoicer but does give us a good rate and seems to charge not by how long something did take when there are problems but by how long something should have taken if it had gone smoothly. So we accept that too.

He knows his stuff but sometimes things things seem to take a few days to get finished. He does go the extra mile though and even became a distributor of a product so he could try it on our system to solve a problem so we accept his slow and steady approach which we think comes about due to a large customer base.

What are your expectations or experiences of these 'sole-trader' guys if you have used them? Should we expect more - count ourselves lucky - accept what we have?

I´d be happy with what you have, if he´s not full time and on an "as and when needed basis" you can´t expect him to drop other jobs he might be doing to get to a minor issue you might have or be on standby waiting for your call. Might have the best intentions of getting to you on Thursday afternoon but sometimes a 5 minute job can turn into a 5 hour job.

If he´s a one man band that would explain the slow invoices - he´s got to find time in between jobs to sit down and draw up the invoices - during which the phone rings with an urgent job, in between working invoicing and paperwork he has to try and squeeze a personal life in.

[Usarka]

Just think of it like a builder.

Would I hire a "handyman" to do odd jobs/fixups on the house? Probably.

Would I hire a professional builder to build a new home? Probably.

[Mental Trousers]

The situation may possibly our fault a little for assuming he would realise that a particular job was critical to us because of it's nature when perhaps we should have said 'this is critical'.


No contract. I guess we'd be a casual client as we only get him when we need something. We are a not-for-profit so a proper contracted service or a hosted service is probably a bit out of our budget.


That is something we discussed today. Thought we might get him to give us a regular monthly 3 hour 'system maintenance' session.

Sounds like there's definitely room for improvement in your organisations relationship with this dude. One problem with your current relationship seems to be communication, ie he may not be aware how critical the job is that's taken weeks so far because he wasn't told.

Good communication is an absolute must, but the type of customer you are has a baring as well. For instance, something that a casual customer regards as critical will take a backseat to something a regular customer regards as important.

A small number of regular hours could be beneficial for both of you as he'll have something to plan around and you'll be more than a casual customer to him.

[Pascal]

We are too small a company to have an IT person so we have a guy who runs an IT service come in when we have problems. Great guy and not at all your IT geek stereotype.

His good points:

He charges you for what it should take.
Fixes critical problems quickly.
He is willing to go the extra mile.
He is cheap.


His bad points:

He is late.
He is unprofessional.
He is lax in record keeping.


Personally, he sounds exactly like the busy sole-trader type of IT business. They're usually run off their feet, chasing problems and have their heads stuffed fulla bits trying to decipher the different problems different customers are having. Can you imagine what his tax records look like?

Not an excuse though.

With all the technology at his fingertips he should know to set appointments, track his time and so forth. He should know how to estimate and quote unless ... well.

He may simply be unaware of what is going on. A lot of IT people that started out as IT people and have not worked in a company where that type of attention and professionalism are required will simply not know that is how it should be done. Fuck, I was a software geek for 10 years before I got into a more corporate type environment where every minute of every day working needed to be budgeted, tracked and paid for by a client. It's a learning curve.

On the other hand, you are getting what you're paying for. So you have 3 choices, I think:


Chat to him as a friend and point him in the right direction. This could be good for him and you as you keep the good bits of your relationship with him and clear up the bad bits. And help him improve his relationship with customers as well.
Stick with him as he is if things are acceptable and priced right. You get what you pay for.
Find a different supplier to work through if things are not acceptable. This may very well end up costing more, but ....

[BuzzardNZ]

why not hire an Indian, they are outsourced to do IT work and come very cheap ;)

[motor_mayhem]

As long as it's not because you're only telling him half the problem, or maybe some of his other customers are.

Fairly often people in general who use IT but have no understanding of it expect that like the internet, diagnosis and repair will be instantaneous and every tech will have memorised the source code of every os and specs of all brands of hardware. If you find a cheap one that's still reliable on the emergency stuff and otherwise provides fixes that work I would say hang on to them. I used to work as a tech and got charged out at an hourly rate equivalent to a handful under half of my weekly wage. Given it was in the corporate sector though...

[Oakie]

... you can´t expect him to drop other jobs he might be doing to get to a minor issue you might have or be on standby waiting for your call. Might have the best intentions of getting to you on Thursday afternoon but sometimes a 5 minute job can turn into a 5 hour job.

Agreed and understood. That's why I accept him saying he's coming Thursday and then turning up on Friday. It's happened often enough at our place that he comes in for a ten minute job and walks out an hour later. In fact, unless it's critical I add 24 hours to the time he says he'll be there anywhere. It's actually a bit of a joke between us now.

[CookMySock]

You'll probably find he's much like you - too small to have a receptionist do his time management for him, not enough money in it to have an invoicing/accounts person - both jobs he hates but has to do when he gets around to it.

"Service" doesn't mean that people are robots, despite what the new business age ethic tells you. It means that they have a heart and they want to help.

[Smifffy]

It still seems to me like the only real problem is this project thing.

How about having a quiet word and asking him straight: "What would it take to have this thing finished by such and such a date?"

Explain that it is being looked at from on high.

He may not even want/be able to do it and is too shy to say anything and just soldiers on. He may need you to buy him a book or fund a course, or lease another computer for the duration of the project,. or buy some software or something.

The rest of it seems to be well in control, from what you've posted so far.

[Oakie]

It still seems to me like the only real problem is this project thing.
How about having a quiet word and asking him straight: "What would it take to have this thing finished by such and such a date?"

There have been two major headaches being attended to over a period of weeks and oddly, he seems to have found a workaround for one yesterday and the other one seems to have reached a breakthrough point today.

[Smifffy]

There have been two major headaches being attended to over a period of weeks and oddly, he seems to have found a workaround for one yesterday and the other one seems to have reached a breakthrough point today.

Maybe he was waiting to hear back from a guy on a forum somewhere?

:msn-wink:

[Oakie]

Maybe he was waiting to hear back from a guy on a forum somewhere?

:msn-wink:

Ha ha. Nice. :clap:

[Mental Trousers]

There have been two major headaches being attended to over a period of weeks and oddly, he seems to have found a workaround for one yesterday and the other one seems to have reached a breakthrough point today.

Most techs (computer people in general actually) will tell you they can do anything and end up committing to things they should hand off. However, given time they'll figure it out. Sounds like what's happening here.

[The Stranger]

Pretty much my personal opinion too. Good to hear someone else express it.
The situation may possibly our fault a little for assuming he would realise that a particular job was critical to us because of it's nature when perhaps we should have said 'this is critical'.

I must say, I'm pleased your location was listed as Christchurch as it sounded suspiciously like you were talking about me.

I must confess though, you have to prioritize your work load. There just is no other way to do it. I base my priority mostly on what I percieve the business need to be and that's going to vary by comapny and situation. If x is mildly inconvenienced and y just can't work, well y is going to get my time. So yes, sometimes you may need to say 'this is critical' if it really is.

One thing I find difficult to deal with is getting to site to fix something, then you get to site and find there are 3 more problems they want fixed. Mostly you try and squeeze them in - delaying the next job - because you are there. Sure, sometimes you just got to say seeya, I'll be back later, but mostly you try and squeze it in.

The other difficulty is that computers are not like say an engine. With an engine there is pretty much a finite number of possibilities to go wrong. The number of possible combinations of software packages, service packs, operating systems, drivers and hardware etc is enormous. It is very difficult at times to accurately estimate how long you are going to spend at a job and therefore what time you will get to the next job.

I will confess that pretty much the only times I am likely to be at a job on time are if it's first job of the day or if there is a real problem.

That said too, my clients know they can call me anytime of the day or night (and regularly do) and that I'm happy working out of hours. I find it far easier and I'm working a damn sight quicker when they aren't there (no disruptions and can often work on several machines at a time) - and yes it does cost them less as a result.

[Hoon]

No contract. I guess we'd be a casual client as we only get him when we need something. We are a not-for-profit so a proper contracted service or a hosted service is probably a bit out of our budget.

To be honest I think you have got it good considering you don't have a monthly contract i.e. a standard monthly fee which covers x support hrs, y maintenance tasks and z response time, anything outside that being chargeable.

As an ad-hoc customer you will always come 2nd to contract customers. If your IT guys deals solely with ad-hoc work then good on him but if it were me I would be encouraging you to enter into a formal contract, otherwise gradually phase you out over time depending on my workload.

Thats just me and it's good that there are guys like your man who cater to the small business minor IT needs but you have be realistic and understand that you can't be expecting VIP treatment when you're eating at McDonalds. If you don't accept this then you'll just end up at Burger King instead.

[avgas]

Sounds unmotivated. He exchanges cheap rates and going the extra mile for not being pressured. He probably walks away from customers that "need it now" (even though they dont).
There is actually a point here.

As an engineer my time is charged out, and lately I have been getting lazy.
I can't be arsed doing things or chasing jobs.

The only thing I can put it down to is my charge out rate has dropped, and with my current company I am being charged out at half of what I was 3 years ago (previous company). I have no value in my work, so I add none.

If you want him to improve in any way. Put your money where your mouth is - set up a proper service agreement where he gets paid more, providing he improves his service.

[Gremlin]

Just to give you another perspective, which Stranger touched on (I work for a company that businesses outsource their IT to). I can plan a day of work nice and beautifully, get one call in the morning, and throw out my day.

I love to plan, but even after years, estimating how long a job will take (unless its something easy) is difficult and complex. Then one rings with an urgent job, so unfortunately, others have to wait, or, I get "Oh, while you're here..."

On the bright side, I wake up every morning, having no idea if my day is going to go according to plan.

The squeaky wheel gets the oil, we're all human, and sometimes something can drop off the list, if it's come by txt, or call. I often ask my client to send me an email with the details, as I use my emails heavily.

Communication is vital, so everyone is on the same page.

[Oakie]

One thing I find difficult to deal with is getting to site to fix something, then you get to site and find there are 3 more problems they want fixed.

Guilty as charged although we never ambush him with big stuff..

[The Stranger]

Guilty as charged although we never ambush him with big stuff..

They never do, just 3 or 4 small jobs that weren't worth mentioning that take an hour or 2. Pretty much throws the whole day out and leaves the next guy wondering why the computer guy is never on time.
Hey, not complaining, just informing - it's the nature of the beast right.

[scott411]

we have a similar arrangement with a contractor, he is sometimes late, but always fair with pricing, i can do most of the easier stuff so he does not get called in to much, he also has remote access so if we have urgent stuff he can check up,

at one stage he did try to get bigger and employ someone else, the guy he employed was useless at actually fixing stuff, so he has gone back to a one man band and the service is better, i am happy with his service and if he is told it is urgent we are always there pretty quick,

the bigger company we used before was hopeless, they would send young guys out and they would attempt to fix the problems, normally cause something else, claim it was not them and try to leave, my opinion was always, the problem was not there before you came, so it is your fault, we used to test the sytems before he was allowed to leave the building,



The other difficulty is that computers are not like say an engine. With an engine there is pretty much a finite number of possibilities to go wrong. The number of possible combinations of software packages, service packs, operating systems, drivers and hardware etc is enormous. It is very difficult at times to accurately estimate how long you are going to spend at a job and therefore what time you will get to the next job.

with electrical ignition systems, carbs/injection, and now computers controlled efi and engine management it can be just as hard to sort out engine faults as well,

its lucky microsoft does not build motorcycles, "yes they just fall over sometimes, just pick it up and restart it, that normally fixes it"

[The Stranger]

with electrical ignition systems, carbs/injection, and now computers controlled efi and engine management it can be just as hard to sort out engine faults as well,


Yep, not trying to put trivialise their work or put machanics down or something, but load Norton Antivirus on the engine computer then then take it into the shop and see how they get on. That shit can stop anything working properly.

[scott411]

Yep, not trying to put trivialise their work or put machanics down or something, but load Norton Antivirus on the engine computer then then take it into the shop and see how they get on. That shit can stop anything working properly.

having had my battles with Norton in the past as well I know that well,

[Gremlin]

That shit can stop anything working properly.
Including it's own uninstall... Sometimes it just doesn't want to go away...

[Oakie]

They never do, just 3 or 4 small jobs that weren't worth mentioning that take an hour or 2. Pretty much throws the whole day out and leaves the next guy wondering why the computer guy is never on time.
Hey, not complaining, just informing - it's the nature of the beast right.

Can happen the other way too. Our guy came in the other day to finish one of his projects. After he finished I said, "Hey come and look at a monitor for me. It fell of it's desk in the earthquake. The surround is broken and apparantly it doesn't work now. You just need to stand at the door look at it and tell me it's broken so we can tell the insurance company our IT guy said it's broken and needs to be replaced. Instead of just doing that though, he fired up the attached PC, worked out the guy's password and spent 10 minutes getting the display working including a check of the video card. Probably at no charge. I think sometimes they enjoy a challenge, even if it does make them late for the next job. Oh, I did come up with a timekeeping incentive for him a couple of months back too. Told him I'd make him a cup of tea of he got to us by 3.30pm. One day he even turned up early so he got a biscuit with his tea that day. Milk, no sugar.

[Latte]

Yep, not trying to put trivialise their work or put machanics down or something, but load Norton Antivirus on the engine computer then then take it into the shop and see how they get on. That shit can stop anything working properly.

+1 - norton used to have a "definition of a virus" on their home page - impossible to remove, degrades system performance, sends information without authorisation across the internet - and some other stuff..... funnily enough it described their product to a T.

[scracha]

too. Told him I'd make him a cup of tea of he got to us by 3.30pm. One day he even turned up early so he got a biscuit with his tea that day. Milk, no sugar.

LOL. Fresh coffee, friendly ladies and biscuits are all good incentives for IT types.

That said, I nearly* always ring customers if I'm going to be more than 15 minutes outside the appointment. I don't think its asking too much for any service agent to call up as soon as they know they won't be on time. Convey this to your IT guy.....you may be pleasantly surprised.

Tell your IT guy to use some form of online invoicing/time tracking software. That way he's not coming back at 7pm to do an hour of paperwork and the customer can see how long it takes to note down all these technical details. If he's anything like me, he'll have probably seen 10 different customers, had 25 emails, 10 text messages (I hate customers that text), a couple of dozen phone calls and not remember what he did 2 hours ago, never mind the details of the job in the morning.

As for comments about unprofessional, poorly documented jobs. There's good and bad. I've seen both excellent and hellish work done by major IT firms. Some (not all) of these large firms can be the prima donna's who are extremely difficult to work with. Some even tell the customer a pack of lies and try and pin all the faults on small outfits like mine**. A lot of it still depends on the guy/gal on the ground and if you've got somebody you can work with who's competent, honest and charges reasonable rates then my advice is to stick with them.


Outsourcing to India. Yeah...a few customers have responded to the phone calls and emails from "Mr Smith in Bangalore". Most come back.

Umm...Norton. I've actually found Norton Internet Security to be a reasonable product for the last couple of years. Bloody awful from about 2000 to 2008 though.

*I'm human...sometimes I get so engrossed in fixing something I lose track of time
**not that I don't make the odd fuck up...but I put it right and don't go out of my way to badmouth and highlight other firms mistakes.

[Oakie]

Umm...Norton. I've actually found Norton Internet Security to be a reasonable product for the last couple of years. Bloody awful from about 2000 to 2008 though.

True. It was a resource hungry dog back then but when I got it on my new PC 15 months back I was pleasantly surprised. So surprised that I paid for it when the trial period ran out and happily renewed the licence last month. This from a guy who used free AVG for years.

[pete376403]

. I think sometimes they enjoy a challenge, even if it does make them late for the next job. .

Some IT guys need to know when to give up - I've seen many cases where "I'm not going to let it beat me-itis" occurs and then the job ends up with a charge that far exceeds its value - printers are a prime example. More than an hour or two and it becomes cheaper just to buy a new one. Not too good for the planet but accountants don't seem to care about that.

[warewolf]

with electrical ignition systems, carbs/injection, and now computers controlled efi and engine management it can be just as hard to sort out engine faults as well, Computers have a much larger set of possible systems/components and connections, and therefore things that can go wrong. They are very much built to a price in the sense that they are not made to interact with everything else out there, in every possible way, but rather it is expected they are administered by ppl who know what they are doing... ain't always so. Motor vehicles are quite crude, simple and robust in comparison. And they only tend to break individually...

[warewolf]

Some IT guys need to know when to give up - I've seen many cases where "I'm not going to let it beat me-itis" occurs and then the job ends up with a charge that far exceeds its value - printers are a prime example. More than an hour or two and it becomes cheaper just to buy a new one. Not too good for the planet but accountants don't seem to care about that.You get the opposite as well, not wanting to spend on capital but happy to pay expenses. I recently handed off a job as wasting everybody's time & money, trying to get a (different) printer working like an existing one, which the next engineer eventually did sort out. Would have been better to buy another printer the same as the first one, for lots of good reasons.

[Gremlin]

If he's anything like me, he'll have probably seen 10 different customers, had 25 emails, 10 text messages (I hate customers that text), a couple of dozen phone calls and not remember what he did 2 hours ago, never mind the details of the job in the morning.
Just as an aside, I've found a Blackberry (plus BES server) and Addonis (available for a couple of other platforms as well I think) really good.

Logs all inbound and outbound calls to your calendar (on day and time, for duration), able to send data between email/calendar/tasks, prompts to add new numbers to your contact list and also a blacklist for incoming calls.

Really handy for trying to keep an idea of the day, especially when you have been too busy during the day, to write down everything you did. Then you have the power of outlook/exchange to search through everything if you want a summary, as all my clients have their company code in their name, in my contact list.

[scracha]

Just as an aside, I've found a Blackberry (plus BES server) and Addonis (available for a couple of other platforms as well I think) really good.


Thanks, I will look into that. My prehistoric Windows PDA has been struggling with the sheer amount of contact info I've got in it.

[Gremlin]

My prehistoric Windows PDA has been struggling with the sheer amount of contact info I've got in it.
I retired my PDA many years ago. :lol:

Even the Nokia smartphones (E71, E5) seem to handle over 1000 contacts syncing up (just takes time). The real advantage of Blackberry is stuff like txts, settings on the phone etc, are also backed up, so switching device is easy, and you have remote wipe.

BEX Express is now free, no CAL's required, so the increased cost is Telecom/Vodafone charging more for Blackberry data.