Emergency braking: Clutch or de-clutch?

[Tunahunter]

Some interesting comments here

http://bettermotorcycling.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/emergency-braking-clutch-or-de-clutch/

[ac3_snow]

well wotdoyaknow! very interesting read. I was a subscriber to the "leave the clutch engaged untill the last minute" method. Made sense to me, for both bikes and cages.
Be interesting to know if the same is true with cars..

[Banditbandit]

Far Out!!! So I've been doing it right

That's not a conscious decision. In an emergency I generally grab everything and stand on everything. I think it's an addrenalin reaction.

However, after some thougth, I'm inclined to think that pulling in the clutch lever means you're also puling the brake lever harder ... Think about it - right hand, squeezing brake lever, left hand no action - that's likely to mean the right hand is not applying as much pressure as it might ...

If you grab both levers and squeeze, you're more likely to be applying maximum pressure through the right hand to the front brake lever ... and stopping faster

[CookMySock]

In an emergency, I don't think you should be pissing around with the clutch. 100% brain power to the task at hand, and stand the fucker on its nose and concentrate!

Also I'd like to suggest the few percent difference they got could easily be put down to other factors.

I learned huge amounts about braking at a track day. It's insane how quick your bike can stop, and how all the wriggly scary shit it does under maximum braking can safely (in a straight line in the dry) be ignored, and I suggest THAT is the best way to learn how to pull up in the shortest possible space. Clutch - irrelevant.

edit: There is also the situation where the final drive will give a loud chatter-chatter-chatter when the rear starts to lock. I find this very valuable indeed when trying to figure out how much braking pressure to apply.

[p.dath]

Check out my blog on emergency braking. I discuss the most common methods taught, which tend to vary based on where you live in the world.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/entry.php/1453-Motorcycle-Emergency-Braking

My preference is to immediately engage the clutch.

I help out at NASS, and I can tell you a lot of riders have a problem with closing the throttle during emergency braking. If you immediately close the clutch then this is not an issue. If you delay doing this then you will drive the engine against the brakes - and I guarantee you that your stopping distance will be much greater in this case.

The emergency braking control over a motorcycle should not be using your cognitive brain power. It should be something you have learned to do automatically. And you can achieve this by simply practising emergency braking again and again till it is automatic.

[p.dath]

Also I'd like to suggest the few percent difference they got could easily be put down to other factors.

I can tell you with the new riders we help that it often halves (yes, halves) their stopping distance by simply engaging the clutch immediately.

[cheesemethod]

I can tell you with the new riders we help that it often halves (yes, halves) their stopping distance by simply engaging the clutch immediately.

I remember when I was starting at NASS I found exactally the same thing, but that is also because I was using about 20% of the braking that I had available.

Personally I prefer only touching the clutch when I'm almost stopped. I've always felt that pulling the clutch in makes the bike feel unstable and makes it easier to lock up the rear. Distance wise for me it makes stuff all of a difference, so I'd rather be in control and ready to get on the power - stopping might not be your only option in hazard avoidance.

[Usarka]

+1 for not even thinking about it, do what comes natural and concentrate on braking.


I can tell you with the new riders we help that it often halves (yes, halves) their stopping distance by simply engaging the clutch immediately.

Probably because its the natural thing to do, and therefore removes the extra cognitive processing required. Ie. if "halves the distance" is true it'll be down to brain rather than braking.

[Headbanger]

I engage the clutch just before the stall, but most of the time I'm back on the power to control the bike and getting myself into a safe line of travel.

Coming from many years of dirt bikes, I'll stand on the brakes, slide the bike where I want her, and crank the fucker back open.

Played havoc on the gearbox when I rode a Harley :shit:

[schrodingers cat]

First the brake.
Everything else is seconday.
It takes approx 0.15 - 0.2 sec for the rear to unload at all


First the brake. HARD

[bogan]

I help out at NASS, and I can tell you a lot of riders have a problem with closing the throttle during emergency braking. If you immediately close the clutch then this is not an issue. If you delay doing this then you will drive the engine against the brakes - and I guarantee you that your stopping distance will be much greater in this case.

I always position my levers/hands such that to grab a handful of brake is to be off the throttle, thought that was how it was sposed to be done, is this not the case?



The emergency braking control over a motorcycle should not be using your cognitive brain power. It should be something you have learned to do automatically. And you can achieve this by simply practising emergency braking again and again till it is automatic.

In either case the rear will likely skid/skip anyway so do whatever comes naturally, for me it's to grab the clutch too, but I learnt that from off-road too.

[javawocky]

Break heard and gear down and let engine breaking help you out.

If the back wheel locks you will instantly know by the stopped engine an can let of the rear break to regain control.

If its not engage you will only know the rear is locked up when it starts coming around, you let go the rear break and the locked rear snatches traction and causes the bike to become unstable.

My 2c

ps. a slipper clutch is a great help here as it limits rear wheel torque.

[CookMySock]

If the back wheel locks you will instantly know by the stopped engine an can let of the rear break to regain control.This advice has helped me out a few times. I've never stepped the tail out from over-braking it, but the chatter-chatter-chatter from the final drive is very clear warning to "please release pressure from the rear brake" or else :bye::bye::bye:

[LBD]

Maybe we should clarify the defination of engage and disengage the clutch....pulling the clutch lever DISENGAGES the clutch....


"On most motorcycles the clutch is operated by the clutch lever located on the left handlebar. No pressure on the lever means that the clutch plates are engaged (driving), while pulling the lever back towards the rider will disengage the clutch plates through cable or hydraulic actuation, allowing the rider to shift gears or coast."

[p.dath]

Personally I prefer only touching the clutch when I'm almost stopped. I've always felt that pulling the clutch in makes the bike feel unstable and makes it easier to lock up the rear.

You should not be concerned about locking up the rear under emergency braking. If you are braking hard the rear often locks up, because the weight comes of the rear tyre. As the rear tyre has less and less traction with the ground it becomes easier and easier to lock up. At this point the rear brake has pretty much no input. Hence it makes no difference weather it locks up.

Likewise pulling the clutch in should not have an impact on bike stability while emergency braking. Pulling the clutch in removes power from the rear wheel. The rear wheel has little weight on it, and little traction, and hence little drive. And ideally, you want the rear wheel to have no drive - otherwise it is fighting the brake.

Locking up the front affects bike stability. Commencing emergency braking while not upright and balanced affects bike stability. But I can't see the how the clutch should affect it once the weight is transferred onto the front wheel.


I always position my levers/hands such that to grab a handful of brake is to be off the throttle, thought that was how it was sposed to be done, is this not the case?

In either case the rear will likely skid/skip anyway so do whatever comes naturally, for me it's to grab the clutch too, but I learnt that from off-road too.

People are of all different heights, with different arm lengths, and different size hands. A lot of bikes simply can't be adjusted to achieve this. And even then, I'm not sure that is a good idea, as it makes learning to blip and brake while changing down difficult. You really (for a road bike) should be able to operate both the throttle and the front brake at the same time, as opposed to either or. But that is my personal opinion, and others will think differently. :)

The rear will not slip "out" under emergency braking if you commence emergency braking while upright on a flat service. It will simply slide in a straight line. Done it many times in practice. Many times. Once again, a rear wheel lock up/slide under emergency braking is not an issue - and is in fact likely if you are braking hard - because the weight rapidly transfers to the front wheel. No weight on the back wheel means very little traction. Consider the case when the rear wheel is completely off the ground ... if you have the rear brake engaged the rear wheel should be 100% locked up.


Break heard and gear down and let engine breaking help you out.

If the back wheel locks you will instantly know by the stopped engine an can let of the rear break to regain control.

If its not engage you will only know the rear is locked up when it starts coming around, you let go the rear break and the locked rear snatches traction and causes the bike to become unstable.

My 2c

ps. a slipper clutch is a great help here as it limits rear wheel torque.

There are a lot of schools of thoughts on this one. Personally, I am convinced that road bikes with disc brakes can supply greatly more braking effort that engine braking. And if the disc braking provide more braking force than engine braking, then the engine is guaranteed to provide driving force against the brakes making the scenario worse. Basically it's a personal decision for a riders. Brakes are designed to remove energy from the system. Engines are designed to add energy to the system.

If you are emergency braking to a complete halt who cares about the rear wheel. If you are "brake and escaping" then you don't have to worry about the rear wheel until you want to drive out again, and even then nothing much is going to happen until weight returns to being on the rear wheel again - which is likely to stop a lock up anyway. The whole issue self resolves a lot of the time.


A slipper clutch saves you against the disaster of changing down and not having the revs high enough (usually because you got the blip wrong), which would normally result in a rear wheel lock up. It's an interesting thought you raise. My thoughts are that if you use the method of immediately pulling in the clutch then a slipper clutch will do nothing. If you leave the bike in gear and simply close the throttle then the engine RPM will be held by the rear wheel, and have no impact. If you attempt a rapid down change with no blip then it might help you. But that's a lot of "ifs" and "buts".

My 2 cents. :)

[Metastable]

I'm with P.dath on this one.

Your limiting factor when you are emergency braking is how hard you can hit the brakes. The engine isn't going to provide any significant deceleration in an emergency. It becomes second nature if you practice enough to grab the clutch and the brake at the same time..... while you are grabbing them you stab the rear and as you quickly load the front you start to reduce pressure on the rear if you are on a sportbike.... a cruiser is different, you'd stay on the rear with more pressure.

This all has to be second nature and you can't be thinking through it. You need to practice A LOT and you need to practice from whatever the fastest speed you ride at.... otherwise you won't know what your bike will do until it is too late.

Another advantage like P.dath said, if you have the clutch pulled in, then you won't accelerate accidentally. Also, be careful with parking lots, they can be dusty and the front will lock much easier... just be ready to let go of the front brake, so that you don't tuck it.

[CookMySock]

Locking up the front affects bike stability. Locking the rear affects stability too. If you do manage to lift the rear wheel, ANY braking during that time whatsoever with the clutch in will completely stop the rear wheel turning, with the resultant mini-slide to restart it once it touches down assymetrically. If you are really unlucky this mini-slide will turn into a maxi-slide and then you are on your arse. :bye::bye::bye:

Dealing with an obstacle on the open road at 120k mid-corner is completely different to experimenting in a carpark, and in the end its the former that kills motorcyclists. There is also the situation that most of the time the disaster is averted by the time you have scrubbed 50k off your speed, so coming to a complete halt is not relevant.

in the wet, actively shut the throttle and apply both brakes firmly and evenly, releasing somewhat either to steer if you judge that to be safer than braking in a straight line, or if you detect any step-out, wriggle, or otherwise.

In the dry, actively shut the throttle and engage brain fully if it wasn't already, and belt both brakes really fucking hard and then modulate them to deal with any unfolding dramas as they arise. The bike will buck and dance around, but it will pull up a lot quicker than you think. You don't have time to piss around the the clutch, and your left hand fingers are better off wrapped firmly on the bars carving some expertly laid-out curve that gets you around the situation, because plain as day you are unlikely to be completely stopped before you reach it.

If you are going to practice this, and you should, get on the track and do it please, or else you might end up under a truck going in the opposite direction. :bye::bye::bye:

[Crasherfromwayback]

First the brake. HARD

First the brake gently and squeeze it progressively and smoothly harder to avoid locking the front wheel.

[bogan]

People are of all different heights, with different arm lengths, and different size hands. A lot of bikes simply can't be adjusted to achieve this. And even then, I'm not sure that is a good idea, as it makes learning to blip and brake while changing down difficult. You really (for a road bike) should be able to operate both the throttle and the front brake at the same time, as opposed to either or. But that is my personal opinion, and others will think differently. :)

In my opinion one of the first things any new bike owner should do is adjust the levers to suit their riding position. If they ain't set up right, you can get fatigue much quicker, loss of brake feel and less control under braking, etc. If it still ain't right look at getting some different bars/clip-ons (I tried grinding the stops off my clip-ons for more adjustment, then eventually went to dirtbike style bars on my current bike). I mean, you wouldn't ride with a helmet the wrong size, your bike should fit just as good.
You can still blip, and operate them both at the same time (not that I can see why you would need to), just not under heavy braking, at which point you can just slip the clutch for a bit on downshifts if needed.

[CookMySock]

First the brake gently and squeeze it progressively and smoothly harder to avoid locking the front wheel.And I guess there is the matter of compressing the front forks in a sane manner.

[Crasherfromwayback]

And I guess there is the matter of compressing the front forks in a sane manner.

Well if you brake like that, that'll happen. Goes hand in hand.

[p.dath]

Locking the rear affects stability too. If you do manage to lift the rear wheel, ANY braking during that time whatsoever with the clutch in will completely stop the rear wheel turning, with the resultant mini-slide to restart it once it touches down assymetrically.

The thing is, if your emergency braking to a complete halt the rear wheel shouldn't be having weight come back on it till the bike is at a near standstill.


Dealing with an obstacle on the open road at 120k mid-corner is completely different to experimenting in a carpark, and in the end its the former that kills motorcyclists.

You can't emergency brake hard mid corner in the situation you describe. The bike needs to be upright and the rider balanced before commencing emergency braking. If you are mid corner and commence an emergency brake the bike will stand up and there is a good chance you'll go wide on the corner and go off the road.

Obstacle avoidance going around a corner is a different issue. I would not advocate anyone pull in the clutch and engage both brakes in that scenario.


There is also the situation that most of the time the disaster is averted by the time you have scrubbed 50k off your speed, so coming to a complete halt is not relevant.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe there is both a need for emergency braking to a complete halt, and "brake and escape".


In the dry, actively shut the throttle and engage brain fully if it wasn't already, and belt both brakes really fucking hard and then modulate them to deal with any unfolding dramas as they arise. The bike will buck and dance around, but it will pull up a lot quicker than you think. You don't have time to piss around the the clutch, and your left hand fingers are better off wrapped firmly on the bars carving some expertly laid-out curve that gets you around the situation, because plain as day you are unlikely to be completely stopped before you reach it.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Humans have a limited cognitive resource, and in an emergency it is usually used on the danger, not a thought out response. That's why emergency braking needs to be an automatic response - you have little cognitive ability to process what to do at the time.
Learning to engage the clutch immediately, being a single action, sounds a hell of a lot easier than learning to modulate your front and rear brake based on the feedback from the bike.

I'm also of the opinion, and I know it is not easy to achieve in an emergency, that you should not have a death grip on the bars. So I would not agree that you should have your left hand "tightly" wrapped around the bars. Have a tight grip however does cause the bike to "dance" around as you say, as it turns your body into a pivot around the bars, as the energy transfers via your arms, rather than in a straight line through the bike.


If you are going to practice this, and you should, get on the track and do it please, or else you might end up under a truck going in the opposite direction. :bye::bye::bye:

Although I do advocate practice on a track, I personally believe the kind of braking you do on a track is completely different to emergency braking on a road.
Typically on a track you brake from much higher speed, so the time for weight to transfer from the rear to the front is much less. Also on a track you typically do not want to bring a bike to a halt - what you are trying to do is to reduce your speed for entering a set of corners (not for a straight line) and to set yourself up for the next set of corners. Also on a track you typically want to be able to drive out of a corner - once again, completely different to the situation on a road where you are braking to save your life.


First the brake gently and squeeze it progressively and smoothly harder to avoid locking the front wheel.

+1. This is my preferred approach as well.

[cheesemethod]

You should not be concerned about locking up the rear under emergency braking. If you are braking hard the rear often locks up, because the weight comes of the rear tyre. As the rear tyre has less and less traction with the ground it becomes easier and easier to lock up. At this point the rear brake has pretty much no input. Hence it makes no difference weather it locks up.

You're making the assumption that all emergency braking is done upright on a flat piece of perfect asphalt in the dry. A while back on my 400 suzuki I was heading toward a roundabout a touch too quick, then realised I had to stop for traffic coming from my right. It wasn't raining but had done so quite heavily about 15 minutes before. The rear locked up and slid to the left with the camber of the road. I ended up stopped just before the give way lines facing 45 degrees to the right of straight, barely managing to hold the bike up. I was very lucky that I didn't end up on the ground. So I have to disagree with you there, it makes a big difference if you lock the rear up, especially in less than ideal circumstances.



Likewise pulling the clutch in should not have an impact on bike stability while emergency braking. Pulling the clutch in removes power from the rear wheel. The rear wheel has little weight on it, and little traction, and hence little drive. And ideally, you want the rear wheel to have no drive - otherwise it is fighting the brake.

The fight between the engine and the rear brake is one that the rear brake will always win (unless you are still on the throttle). I prefer to still have the driveline engaged as it gives me a buffer which prevents the rear wheel locking up.

[george formby]

Locking the rear affects stability too. If you do manage to lift the rear wheel, ANY braking during that time whatsoever with the clutch in will completely stop the rear wheel turning, with the resultant mini-slide to restart it once it touches down assymetrically. If you are really unlucky this mini-slide will turn into a maxi-slide and then you are on your arse. :bye::bye::bye:

Dealing with an obstacle on the open road at 120k mid-corner is completely different to experimenting in a carpark, and in the end its the former that kills motorcyclists. There is also the situation that most of the time the disaster is averted by the time you have scrubbed 50k off your speed, so coming to a complete halt is not relevant.

in the wet, actively shut the throttle and apply both brakes firmly and evenly, releasing somewhat either to steer if you judge that to be safer than braking in a straight line, or if you detect any step-out, wriggle, or otherwise.

In the dry, actively shut the throttle and engage brain fully if it wasn't already, and belt both brakes really fucking hard and then modulate them to deal with any unfolding dramas as they arise. The bike will buck and dance around, but it will pull up a lot quicker than you think. You don't have time to piss around the the clutch, and your left hand fingers are better off wrapped firmly on the bars carving some expertly laid-out curve that gets you around the situation, because plain as day you are unlikely to be completely stopped before you reach it.

If you are going to practice this, and you should, get on the track and do it please, or else you might end up under a truck going in the opposite direction. :bye::bye::bye:

Glad you mentioned another scenario. I don't think I have ever had to bring the bike to an emergency stop on a dry, straight, well surfaced bit of road. Certainly had to scrub off speed & change my line quickly but that is relatively simple.

Emergency braking mid corner, in the wet, on a dodgy road surface or in limited space requires a huge amount of thought, instantly. To have a hope you need to know how the environment will affect the bike before the emergency presents itself, you have to be riding "aware".

In this case I do what I have too, front brake, rear brake, clutch or de-clutch, slide the back end to straighten the bike up etc, whatever it takes to keep the skin on. But it all starts from knowing whats under your wheels & around you before you react.

The best technique is the one that works at the time. IMHO

[p.dath]

You're making the assumption that all emergency braking is done upright on a flat piece of perfect asphalt in the dry. A while back on my 400 suzuki I was heading toward a roundabout a touch too quick, then realised I had to stop for traffic coming from my right. It wasn't raining but had done so quite heavily about 15 minutes before. The rear locked up and slid to the left with the camber of the road. I ended up stopped just before the give way lines facing 45 degrees to the right of straight, barely managing to hold the bike up. I was very lucky that I didn't end up on the ground. So I have to disagree with you there, it makes a big difference if you lock the rear up, especially in less than ideal circumstances.

I did say you need to have the bike vertical and be centred on the bike beforehand ...




The fight between the engine and the rear brake is one that the rear brake will always win (unless you are still on the throttle). I prefer to still have the driveline engaged as it gives me a buffer which prevents the rear wheel locking up.

The problem is the fight results in the braking distance being increased - not what you want in an emergency stop.

[oneofsix]

I did say you need to have the bike vertical and be centred on the bike beforehand ...

Interesting take because the bit that took my attention from cheesemethod's post was the chamber. Even if the bike is upright the chamber could slide the rear wheel out. Its when the rear tries to pass the front that scares me.

[cheshirecat]

No matter what method is taken to brake bear in mind the human brain requires a thousand repetitions of the same action before it becomes a subroutine, ie happens on reflex without having to think about it.

So if practicing allow time to perfect, don't expect a few attempts in a car park or race track to do the job. What the brain does in an emergency is not always what you want.

[cheesemethod]

I did say you need to have the bike vertical and be centred on the bike beforehand ...
And that's how I started. I'm saying the camber of the road is what I think caused the bike to slide out to one side. Now while I have control over whether my rear brake is locked or not, I sure don't have control of the shape of the road under me. Perfect world techniques are rubbish, especially in New Zealand, because we are so rarely on perfect roads in perfect conditions.



The problem is the fight results in the braking distance being increased - not what you want in an emergency stop.
If the rear wheel were to lock regardless of clutch in or out, how would that make any difference to the stopping distance? (Note this is using your argument, not mine, I still don't think the rear should be locked at all)

[bogan]

The problem is the fight results in the braking distance being increased - not what you want in an emergency stop.

have you read the article in the OP? There was half a meter difference over 40m, I don't think the testing done is enough to say that pulling in the clutch is better in the best case scenario, and no evidence to say it is better in others.

[george formby]

have you read the article in the OP? There was half a meter difference over 40m, I don't think the testing done is enough to say that pulling in the clutch is better in the best case scenario, and no evidence to say it is better in others.

Yeah, I think squeezing both levers probably results in a fractionally quicker reaction & possibly a slightly more confident brake squeeze but I do not think their is a physical effect on the bike, not enough info to imply that anyway.

[javawocky]

Just typical, few minutes ago while riding in the lightly wet conditions Carpet Court sales rep suddenly changes lanes into median strip which I was on. Was already slowing about about 40kph and had to - sort of - emergency brake.

Think I followed my own advice? No :facepalm: I pulled the front the clutch and the back, locking the back up a little on the wet pain. However the front was where my attention was, applying enough but not too much to lock it up.

Which got me thinking on the rest of the ride back...

This whole discussion changes heaps when you consider the speed from which you are stopping. From hight speeds, like on a track you want the back turning to keep you pointing in the right direction.

I don't want the back coming around on me when going at high speed, its just dangerous. I think at slow speeds its far less of an issue if you get a rear lockup.

Interesting discussion which will no doubt be derailed by Katman at any moment.

[CookMySock]

You can't emergency brake hard mid corner in the situation you describe. The bike needs to be upright and the rider balanced before commencing emergency braking. If you are mid corner and commence an emergency brake the bike will stand up and there is a good chance you'll go wide on the corner and go off the road.You don't get to choose. Nature will choose the moment and if you are going to argue that its "outside the rules" then it's going to slap your face with it at the least expected moment. Thats the nature of the beast.

You can emergency brake mind-corner. What you cannot do, is use 100% of what you had when upright, and therein lies the maths.

All of this is up to the end user to evaluate for themselves. Get on the track and belt the bike into corners and brake and note what it does. Yes it will alter its geometry, and yes you better figure it out, or else forget all this development-riding crap and just tour around quietly and hope you never need it. :shutup:

[george formby]

You don't get to choose. Nature will choose the moment

Exacary how I think about it. Tis why you have to think how you react. Through awe inspiring talent & mind boggling skill ( pure luck + 20 odd years riding ) I had to throw the anchor out mid corner & stayed up, I hit the back brake hard, the front not particularly & as the bum swung round & the bike stood up managed to load the front up enough to avoid the car reversing at me without crossing into oncoming traffic. Not nice & I was not thinking about what the most effective way of stopping was, just about avoiding the multiple ways I could hit a car. Doing about 70kmh at the pucker point & I do not want to try it again. Wide bars & extra suspension helped more than technique I think...:blink:

[Brett]

Personally I always disengage the clutch on hard emergency stops. Firstly, rear wheel is usually only just skimming the ground anyway, secondly...if emergency braking near or around bends, swing arm chatter is a bitch. Anyone who has ever done some fast road/track riding knows the feeling of going into a corner too hot or dropping down gears a tad early and getting the arse end bouncing around like J-Lo.

Of course, if you have a slipper clutch the above is mitigated to a certain degree.

[Brett]

As Javawocky said...speed is a big factor. high speed, fast stops I leave clutch enganged. slow speed, around town e-stops I dis-engage.

[Usarka]

I don't want the back coming around on me when going at high speed, its just dangerous.


Disagree. Sports bike riders always like to brag about how big there balls are saying they don't need the rear brake because they brake so hard the back is off the ground. If you can manage an airborne rear tyre under braking then you should be able to manage a locked rear tyre. If your worried about what happens when you come off the rear brake, then DON'T!

In the context of an emergency upright maximum braking stop a locked rear wheel is not high on the list of priorities. If you're not upright you shouldn't be maximum braking. If you are and it locks leave it locked. IMHO & taught by prof instructors.

[p.dath]

And that's how I started. I'm saying the camber of the road is what I think caused the bike to slide out to one side. Now while I have control over whether my rear brake is locked or not, I sure don't have control of the shape of the road under me. Perfect world techniques are rubbish, especially in New Zealand, because we are so rarely on perfect roads in perfect conditions.

To suggest that practising emergency braking is pointless (is that what you are suggesting - not sure) because it doesn't work out in some scenarios is not a good reason to give up on learning how to do it.


If the rear wheel were to lock regardless of clutch in or out, how would that make any difference to the stopping distance? (Note this is using your argument, not mine, I still don't think the rear should be locked at all)

Because the rear wheel takes longer to slow down (and lock) when it is being driven by the engine. Even if you don't lock the rear wheel, you still don't want to be driving it using the engine during an emergency braking session.


have you read the article in the OP? There was half a meter difference over 40m, I don't think the testing done is enough to say that pulling in the clutch is better in the best case scenario, and no evidence to say it is better in others.

I did. In fact, if you read my BLOG on emergency braking you'll see I sited it a year ago. So yes, I am well familiar with it.
I guess I have watched a lot of people practising emergency braking, and have observed the impact it makes when pulling in the clutch.

But back to the article, in the worst case your no better off, and in the best case you'll stop in a shorter distance. Sounds a good reason to do it to me ...


You don't get to choose. Nature will choose the moment and if you are going to argue that its "outside the rules" then it's going to slap your face with it at the least expected moment. Thats the nature of the beast.

You can emergency brake mind-corner. What you cannot do, is use 100% of what you had when upright, and therein lies the maths.

All of this is up to the end user to evaluate for themselves. Get on the track and belt the bike into corners and brake and note what it does. Yes it will alter its geometry, and yes you better figure it out, or else forget all this development-riding crap and just tour around quietly and hope you never need it. :shutup:

To me, emergency braking is bringing a motorcycle to a stop in the minimum distance. It may mean something different to you. Perhaps that is where we are at odds.

From my point of view, the fact that emergency braking is required at all is only because the rider has failed to notice they are entering a situation of increased danger, and have failed to respond to that threat. I know we don't agree on this one, but I don't believe it's natures choice when your going to get into trouble - it's the riders for failing to be aware of the situation - at least 99% of the time.

I've had plenty of track training sessions. "Belting" into a corner and using your brakes on the track has nothing to do with trying to bring your motorcycle to a stop in the shortest distance. Braking on a track (and granted, it is hard braking) is all about setting yourself up for a set of corners.

Emergency braking is about responding to something that you didn't expect. Something you didn't plan. Do see how this is quite different to braking on a track?
Emergency braking is about shedding a lot of speed because you have to - because you have no choice - because your life might depend on it.


As I say, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[george formby]

Braking threads are always good for different points of view & schools of thought.:yes:

For novice riders reading this may I just say that THE most important thing is practice & training.

As you were.

[bogan]

But back to the article, in the worst case your no better off, and in the best case you'll stop in a shorter distance. Sounds a good reason to do it to me ...


What is the confidence interval on their results though? In the best case you may be better off, and in the worst case you may have the back swing round on you. I reckon leaving the clutch alone may provide benefits in non-ideal situations, and pulling it in only provides small/negligible benefits in ideal situations.

After thinking more on it, I think (hard to recall as I don't have many oh fuck moments) I leave the clutch alone at higher speeds, and pull in at lower (though this is usually a conscious decision so I don't stall I think).

Obviously it makes more sense to learn and use a single technique only, so which one is best for all emergency braking situations?

[cheesemethod]

To suggest that practising emergency braking is pointless (is that what you are suggesting - not sure) because it doesn't work out in some scenarios is not a good reason to give up on learning how to do it.

No, I definately agree on practicing it. Just saying that my personal preference is to stay in control therefore have more options, even if it costs me another foot or two of road. I prefer to develop a skillset keeps me safe regardless road and environmental conditions. In my opinion the safest way for me to do that is not to lock the rear wheel and to keep the engine at the ready.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Because the rear wheel takes longer to slow down (and lock) when it is being driven by the engine. Even if you don't lock the rear wheel, you still don't want to be driving it using the engine during an emergency braking session.




The rear wheel isn't being driven by the engine when the throttle is chopped from revs. Im sure you've noticed your bike slow down when you only shut the throttle down...It's called engine braking.

[Ocean1]

First the brake gently and squeeze it progressively and smoothly harder to avoid locking the front wheel.

Yes, get more weight on the front so it'll take more braking force, which gets more weight on the front....

I remember seeing several surveys done by reputable sources about whether to grab the clutch in emergency braking early, late or not at all. Their results varied, so I did some of my own trials. I expected best results from declutching late, once the braking sequence was well in hand but well before stalling it.

What I found was that I was a couple of metres better off leaving the bloody thing alone alltogether. Even dropping a couple of percent of my focus from the braking feedback / load loop cost me more than the little bit of drive from the almost-stalled engine.

I still don't do it though. I learned in the dirt, where a fairly high percentage of my brake work is emergency braking. :shit: It's just too hard to change habits as old as mine.

Although I'm making progress with the two-finger braking thing, on account of some good lessons from adverse effects of the BIG GRAB technique on the Buell.

[Banditbandit]

First the brake gently and squeeze it progressively and smoothly harder to avoid locking the front wheel.

In an emergency ??? I definitely don't gently squeeze .. I stand on everything ..

[slofox]

I find I chop successively down through the gears under hard braking...dunno why - just do it.

Slipper clutch helps with the lock-up problem...

[AllanB]

Darn where is SKIDMARK?

I mean he could brake from 160 in 4 metres .........

[Crasherfromwayback]

In an emergency ??? I definitely don't gently squeeze .. I stand on everything ..

Hahaha..most riders do mate. But if you squeeze them progressively harder you'll be amazed how hard you can squeeze them without locking the wheel. Grab a handful and normally you'll simply lock the wheel and hit the deck.

[george formby]

Hahaha..most riders do mate. But if you squeeze them progressively harder you'll be amazed how hard you can squeeze them without locking the wheel. Grab a handful and normally you'll simply lock the wheel and hit the deck.

I had a squirt on a Fireblade a wee while back & one of the first things I did was test the brakes, pretty much as you described. The distance from 100kmh to falling off in suprise was FA. Unlike my bike I could just keep on loading the front & it buried itself into the road, stopping in way less time than I expected.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I had a squirt on a Fireblade a wee while back & one of the first things I did was test the brakes, pretty much as you described. The distance from 100kmh to falling off in suprise was FA. Unlike my bike I could just keep on loading the front & it buried itself into the road, stopping in way less time than I expected.

Aye. Even in the wet you'd be amazed how hard you can squeeze 'em, if you're nice and progressive (smooth). It's sudden inputs of ANY type a bike doesn't like.

[The Stranger]

I can tell you with the new riders we help that it often halves (yes, halves) their stopping distance by simply engaging the clutch immediately.

Engaging? really? so you recommend they don't pull in the clutch.

[Brett]

Disagree. Sports bike riders always like to brag about how big there balls are saying they don't need the rear brake because they brake so hard the back is off the ground. If you can manage an airborne rear tyre under braking then you should be able to manage a locked rear tyre. If your worried about what happens when you come off the rear brake, then DON'T!

In the context of an emergency upright maximum braking stop a locked rear wheel is not high on the list of priorities. If you're not upright you shouldn't be maximum braking. If you are and it locks leave it locked. IMHO & taught by prof instructors.

Not really about having big balls, nor is it really a bragging thing. Just noticed it with most sports bikes I have owned (with weight distribution being more forward of the C.O.G.) that when I really brake hard, be it on a race track slowing down for a hair pin or a quick stop on the road, my back wheel will only just touch the road. I have had the back wheel lift on occasion under a really hard stop (intentional stoppies excluded of course).
But agree, holding the back wheel in check while locked up is not really anything difficult nor special.

[awa355]

You are riding a big cruiser with most of the weight over the rear, a longer wheelbase etc. Less forward weight transfer?
How would you alter ( if at all) your emergency braking procedure over that of a high powered sportsbike?

I'm thinking of the usage of the rear brake here.

[Crasherfromwayback]

You are riding a big cruiser with most of the weight over the rear, a longer wheelbase etc. Less forward weight transfer?
How would you alter ( if at all) your emergency braking procedure over that of a high powered sportsbike?

I'm thinking of the usage of the rear brake here.

You can use (and get away with using) far more rear brake on a fat old cruiser. Still wanna use as much of the front as you can chuck at it though.

[The Stranger]

You are riding a big cruiser with most of the weight over the rear, a longer wheelbase etc. Less forward weight transfer?
How would you alter ( if at all) your emergency braking procedure over that of a high powered sportsbike?

I'm thinking of the usage of the rear brake here.

Look at a sport bike or trailie under brakes. The bike tends to rotate around the front wheel as the front forks compress adding even more weight to the front.

On a big cruiser that effect is not so pronounced. Sure teh forks will compress and you still get more weight and stopping power from the front. But because the geometry and lower, more rearward center of gravity the bike isn't pressing the forks down. Instead its trying to push the front wheel out - i.e it locks easier.

By observation, when you get a front wheel lock on a cruiser it appears that there may even be a form of negative castor effect as they seem to wash out easier.
I say that because we frequently see sport bikes lock the front without any problem, yet invariably when we see a cruiser lock the front we see the bars go round and the bike go down.

So, in answer to your question. The rear is certainly important on a cruiser. The front is still more important. We suggest you focus on the front first get that working right then the rear. If you have 70% braking force on the front, you may as well take 100% of that first before you focus on the other 30.

[kiwi cowboy]

Break heard and gear down and let engine breaking help you out.

If the back wheel locks you will instantly know by the stopped engine an can let of the rear break to regain control.

If its not engage you will only know the rear is locked up when it starts coming around, you let go the rear break and the locked rear snatches traction and causes the bike to become unstable.

My 2c

ps. a slipper clutch is a great help here as it limits rear wheel torque.

I agree with this post and gearing down while braking should become automatic through practice as being in the right gear should you need instant power is as important imo.

[Okey Dokey]

Gosh, I really hestitate to post when both sides have been argued so well. I will say that, personally, I don't think it is a good thing to practice emergency braking pulling in the clutch as soon as the front brake is applied. Your right hand is not "wired" to your left one. They can act independently and you can practice and train them to do so.

It is good to encourage practice for all riders. I have locked up my rear practicing, and guess what, I didn't die, and learned to release it immediately and not to stomp on it next time. That is what practice is for.

Like others have said, I clutch right at the end of my braking to avoid stalling. Otherwise my focus is on the brake controls.

[Crasherfromwayback]

By observation, when you get a front wheel lock on a cruiser it appears that there may even be a form of negative castor effect as they seem to wash out easier.
I say that because we frequently see sport bikes lock the front without any problem, yet invariably when we see a cruiser lock the front we see the bars go round and the bike go down.

.

Not saying you're wrong...but I dunno about that. As a practice thing I used to do on my moto-x bikes at the beach, I used to ride for as long as I could with the front wheel locked on the juice. Simply to understand what the front end felt like locked, and to learn how to control it. I think it's easier to do that with a bike with more rake (as in dirt bike and cruiser) than a full on sports bike with a steep rake.

[kiwi cowboy]

Look at a sport bike or trailie under brakes. The bike tends to rotate around the front wheel as the front forks compress adding even more weight to the front.

On a big cruiser that effect is not so pronounced. Sure teh forks will compress and you still get more weight and stopping power from the front. But because the geometry and lower, more rearward center of gravity the bike isn't pressing the forks down. Instead its trying to push the front wheel out - i.e it locks easier.

By observation, when you get a front wheel lock on a cruiser it appears that there may even be a form of negative castor effect as they seem to wash out easier.
I say that because we frequently see sport bikes lock the front without any problem, yet invariably when we see a cruiser lock the front we see the bars go round and the bike go down.

So, in answer to your question. The rear is certainly important on a cruiser. The front is still more important. We suggest you focus on the front first get that working right then the rear. If you have 70% braking force on the front, you may as well take 100% of that first before you focus on the other 30.

Reguarding your last paragraph here mate i would have to dissagree on getting the front working on a cruiser first.
Just my opinion but when i owned my intruder i found under hard braking it was better to hit the rear a split second before the front as it seamed to have the effect of sucking the whole bike down then the rear and front worked in unisen but if the front was on first it diddnt compress the rear suspension and the rear diddnt have the same bite.
Might have just me but would be interested in other peoples views on this.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Reguarding your last paragraph here mate i would have to dissagree on getting the front working on a cruiser first.
Just my opinion but when i owned my intruder i found under hard braking it was better to hit the rear a split second before the front as it seamed to have the effect of sucking the whole bike down then the rear and front worked in unisen but if the front was on first it diddnt compress the rear suspension and the rear diddnt have the same bite.
Might have just me but would be interested in other peoples views on this.

To a certain extent, they say this'll work on full on race bikes as well. I think it's a valid point of view on cruisers, but not so on sports bikes. I tend to think when hard out on the front picks on a sports bike, the rear only settles it a little and stops it swinging round and trying to overtake the front wheel. Right up to the point that the rear wheel is off the deck.

[kiwi cowboy]

To a certain extent, they say this'll work on full on race bikes as well. I think it's a valid point of view on cruisers, but not so on sports bikes. I tend to think when hard out on the front picks on a sports bike, the rear only settles it a little and stops it swinging round and trying to overtake the front wheel. Right up to the point that the rear wheel is off the deck.

I dont try it on my race bike- i only ment it for cruisers.
My race bike gets the front hard progressivly and yes the first few times on the track it amazed me how hard you could actually get on it and the back only a little bit at the same time changing down.
I do use the rear sometimes mid corner or on a double apex corner to settle the bike which works quite well but im getting off topic sorry.

[CookMySock]

To suggest that practising emergency braking is pointless (is that what you are suggesting - not sure) because it doesn't work out in some scenarios is not a good reason to give up on learning how to do it.Well, no, but laboratory conditions are not where it matters. Perhaps you CAN save a few meters braking with the clutch in, but when the shit hits the fan perhaps your attention is better focused on other things.


Because the rear wheel takes longer to slow down (and lock) when it is being driven by the engine. Even if you don't lock the rear wheel, you still don't want to be driving it using the engine during an emergency braking session. [....] I guess I have watched a lot of people practising emergency braking, and have observed the impact it makes when pulling in the clutch.I agree with you, but I submit that closing the throttle is enough. Later in the evasive manoevre I agree that either the clutch will have to come in, or a downchange selected, but normally at least 50% of your speed and 99% of the problem is gone by then.


To me, emergency braking is bringing a motorcycle to a stop in the minimum distance. [....] Emergency braking is about responding to something that you didn't expect. Something you didn't plan.You see, these are two different things. I can pull my bike up in the shortest possible distance as a technical demonstration, but in the real world things are not so cut-and-dried.

Ie, it is easy to make some scientific demonstration, but out in the wild there are too many variables. An important thing to remember is, at open road speeds it is very likely indeed that you physically do not have the stopping distance required. A new plan must be hatched in the blink of an eye, and that may amount to standing the bike up for 1.2second and belting the brakes really hard, then to 25% brake and scrape a footpeg one side, swerve hard over to the opposite side braking very hard indeed for the 0.5second the bike is upright, releasing to 25% as you scrape the opposite footpeg. With such actions set in motion your technical demonstration (while correct in a straight line) is largely obsoleted by more pressing demands.

That blink of an eye is all you get, and you don't want to be futzing with the irrelevant or overtly subscribing to some laboratory ideal, or else you are going to taste 4WD bumper today.

I don't think we disagree. Your point is, in ideal conditions "pulling the clutch in helps." I concur. But I suggest the wider picture applies.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I do use the rear sometimes mid corner or on a double apex corner to settle the bike which works quite well but im getting off topic sorry.

No problem. As good a time to talk about that as any.

[The Stranger]

Not saying you're wrong...but I dunno about that. As a practice thing I used to do on my moto-x bikes at the beach, I used to ride for as long as I could with the front wheel locked on the juice. Simply to understand what the front end felt like locked, and to learn how to control it. I think it's easier to do that with a bike with more rake (as in dirt bike and cruiser) than a full on sports bike with a steep rake.

As I say, it's simply a product of observation and I accept that I may well be wrong that regard.
I honestly can't recall seeing a sport bike go down during emergency braking, but I can recall 3 cruisers. In all those cases as the front locked the steering snapped to full lock then the bike went down.
I'd like to believe that it's not just that cruiser riders are less skilled than sport bike riders.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I honestly can't recall seeing a sport bike go down during emergency braking, but I can recall 3 cruisers. In all those cases as the front locked the steering snapped to full lock then the bike went down.
I'd like to believe that it's not just that cruiser riders are less skilled than sport bike riders.

Plenty of road race bikes going down on the picks though, as compared to moto-x bikes (the rake thing).

And plenty of sport bike riders would argue they are better!

[Metastable]

To a certain extent, they say this'll work on full on race bikes as well. I think it's a valid point of view on cruisers, but not so on sports bikes. I tend to think when hard out on the front picks on a sports bike, the rear only settles it a little and stops it swinging round and trying to overtake the front wheel. Right up to the point that the rear wheel is off the deck.

IMO, and the way I have done it..... it is merely a very quick stab (and release) of the rear brake on a sportbike as you are loading the front. On a cruiser I'd keep on the rear brake during the entire stop.

If you practice emergency braking on dirty road you can practice locking and releasing the front.... and yes you can lock the front on a sportbike, been there done that... twice.


Also - it was interesting hearing you talk about locking the front while on the gas. Apparently Jason Britton did that at highway speeds on a Hyabusa during the journalist launch in the US of their 2nd generation bike. It caused a huge flat spot on the front tire. (disclaimer - that is completely nuts.... so don't try it unless you are in controlled conditions with an ambulance nearby :D )

[Crasherfromwayback]

and yes you can lock the front on a sportbike, been there done that... twice.


Didn't actually say you couldn't. Done it many time myself road racing, especially in the wet. Just more likely to end up on your head than on a dirt bike etc.

[Metastable]

Didn't actually say you couldn't.

Oh I know you didn't.... I was responding to another post saying it is hard to lock the front on a sportbike ...it is, but it can be done. :yes: What you say is typically bang-on IMO.

[rdkls]

Talked with you about this on Wednesday hey Phil.

My opinion is that the fewer things you have to give attention to the better, especially when in danger / shitting thyself.

According to the study you mention, and this is also what I would intuitively guess, optimal braking = reducing all forward forces i.e. clutch and back brake, and no doubt holds if you put a smart multitasking robot on the bike.

But in the real world, in an emergency, I really don't think my brain is going to go "ok left hand you pull all in, right foot you apply a bit but don't lock up my rear, now right hand squeeze a bit, now progressively harder";

I'd rather just be optimal with the front.

If learners still have throttle open, check lever position and drill that out properly.

I also think, for learners, it's most important to be taught and drill progressive braking. The mnemonic I was taught was "set up, and squeeze".
Understanding and practicing this made the biggest improvement to my braking.
In searching I see this is more common in Australia as it seems to be in all learners' motorcycle books e.g. http://www.scribd.com/doc/6358130/Riders-Handbook (p.20)

[p.dath]

Engaging? really? so you recommend they don't pull in the clutch.

My error. I try to say "pull the clutch in" to avoid that mistake.


My opinion is that the fewer things you have to give attention to the better, especially when in danger / shitting thyself.

I'll go further, and say that your unlikely to be able to devote hardly any cognitive input during an emergency to motorcycle controls.


But in the real world, in an emergency, I really don't think my brain is going to go "ok left hand you pull all in, right foot you apply a bit but don't lock up my rear, now right hand squeeze a bit, now progressively harder";

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe you will have the cognitive ability to think about it at all, which is why is say it has to be an automatic reaction, and you can only make it an automatic reaction through practice.

Also, I only discuss a two step process. Pull in clutch with left hand and apply full rear brake. Second step, progressively pull in front brake harder and harder.

And you'll also notice that I tell riders not to worry about locking up the rear wheel, and that indeed at a lot of them do at the practice - and absolutely nothing bad happens.
And as I have said previously, getting a rear wheel lock is not uncommon once a lot of weight is on the front wheel because the rear wheel has reduced traction.

You'll also note that I get new riders to experiment with front and rear only brake inputs, so they can learn what works best for them.



I'd rather just be optimal with the front.

Seems a waste not to using a braking mechanism when your trying to brake in the shortest possible distance. But different techniques work for different people on different bikes, and as I say at the practice, there are many methods and you need to find what works best for you, but that I can only teach one at a time.


If learners still have throttle open, check lever position and drill that out properly.

The problem with this single focus on lever position is that it compromises other techniques that need to be learned, such as being able to brake and blip and change down at the same time. There are times when you need to do this to loose a lot of speed quickly but without the intention of bringing the bike to a halt. You may simple need to ditch a lot of speed quickly before going around an obstacle.


I also think, for learners, it's most important to be taught and drill progressive braking. The mnemonic I was taught was "set up, and squeeze".


And that technique sounds fine to me as well. You just need to start getting some weight on the front wheel, smoothly.

[bogan]

The problem with this single focus on lever position is that it compromises other techniques that need to be learned, such as being able to brake and blip and change down at the same time. There are times when you need to do this to loose a lot of speed quickly but without the intention of bringing the bike to a halt. You may simple need to ditch a lot of speed quickly before going around an obstacle.

It's not a single focus, it's about ensuring the bike is set up correctly before learning any habits. And as I've said before, you can still blip with that lever setup, it just requires a conscious decision, while no throttle when under heavy braking is automatic.
Do you check the lever positions for the learner riders you teach at all? All the stuff I've read suggests this is one of the first things to do.

[p.dath]

Do you check the lever positions for the learner riders you teach at all? All the stuff I've read suggests this is one of the first things to do.

Only those having problems with the levers. 99% of them have no issue.

[CookMySock]

I don't believe you will have the cognitive ability to think about it at all, which is why is say it has to be an automatic reaction, and you can only make it an automatic reaction through practice.Everyone is different, and while I do not disagree with you here I suggest many have the ability TO ACTUALLY USE THEIR BRAIN under stress.



And you'll also notice that I tell riders not to worry about locking up the rear wheel, and that indeed at a lot of them do at the practice - and absolutely nothing bad happens. And as I have said previously, getting a rear wheel lock is not uncommon once a lot of weight is on the front wheel because the rear wheel has reduced traction.NO! Is all emergency braking in a straight line? What are the consequences of locking a rear wheel when the emergency braking is on a curve? What is the benefit to the rider WHATSOEVER for locking the rear wheel? :facepalm:
Answers: no, lowside, none.



The problem with this single focus on lever position is that it compromises other techniques that need to be learned, such as being able to brake and blip and change down at the same time. There are times when you need to do this to loose a lot of speed quickly but without the intention of bringing the bike to a halt.How does blipping the throttle help you "lose a lot of speed quickly"? Why are you drilling it as an emergency procedure then?

[bogan]

Only those having problems with the levers. 99% of them have no issue.

Maybe you should extend that to cover problems that could be caused by improper lever position as well, it's such a simple thing to check and fix (generally) and makes a huge difference.

[Oscar]

The nuances of technique mean very little unless the rider has practised emergency ‎stops until they become second nature. I also doubt that where the rider has reached a ‎high level of proficiency, the timing of the clutch application would make much ‎difference in stopping distance.‎

I also had a smile looking at that web site where he made comment about the “..lay ‘er ‎down.." technique. In thirty odd years of racing, abusing, watching and generally ‎riding the shit out motorcycles I have never seen a rider deliberately laying it down. In fact the opposite is true - there are any number of guys out there with injuries caused by hanging on until the last possible second in the hope of saving it (check out Mike Doohan and Aaron Slight's fingers). ‎It is actually quite a difficult thing to pull off deliberately and I suspect it’s a ‎convenient excuse after crashing due to the over application of the rear brake..‎

[Crasherfromwayback]

there are any number of guys out there with injuries caused by hanging on until the last possible second in the hope of saving it (check out Mike Doohan and Aaron Slight's fingers).‎

Probelem being Oscar, think you'll find their injuries were from getting the hand trapped by the lever and or handle bar and having the flesh ground off them. Can't be so sure of Doohans, but I know that's what happened to Slighty. Ground the top of his hand away badly.

[Oscar]

Probelem being Oscar, think you'll find their injuries were from getting the hand trapped by the lever and or handle bar and having the flesh ground off them. Can't be so sure of Doohans, but I know that's what happened to Slighty. Ground the top of his hand away badly.

Yeah, I talked to Aaron just after he'd had the skin grafts.
My point was that I've heard guys saying that they "layed 'er down" as if it was a deliberate option, not the result of losing control. The likes of Slighty and Doohan have their hands on the bars until the very last second in because they know that with a leetle bit more time/luck/skill they can save it...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yeah, I talked to Aaron just after he'd had the skin grafts.
My point was that I've heard guys saying that they "layed 'er down" as if it was a deliberate option, not the result of losing control. The likes of Slighty and Doohan have their hands on the bars until the very last second in because they know that with a leetle bit more time/luck/skill they can save it...

Aye. I was at Boyle Kawasaki when he did it, and he often popped in to say "Hi" when he was having the treatment done. It was WELL ugly! Problem being, especially if you loose the front....you can get a hand trapped before you know it. But I'm sure you know that...hell...we all do!

Go Stoner!:innocent:

[Ocean1]

there are any number of guys out there with injuries caused by hanging on until the last possible second in the hope of saving ‎

:yes: With apologies to Bob Hoover: If you're faced with a crash don’t cheat on your machine, ride it as far into the crash as possible.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Once the fat lady has sung...I tend to want to stay as far away from my bike as possible!

[Oscar]

Once the fat lady has sung...I tend to want to stay as far away from my bike as possible!

I had a car turn right in front of a RZ250 I was riding years ago.

A bystander told me that I had the back wheel a foot off the ground when I hit the car. I hung on until impact and thought I'd saved it - I got that baby pulled up real smart - but I hit the car with just enough speed to put me over the bars and face first on the bonnet. I guess that because the front suspension was under full compression when I hit (and I can't have been doing more that 30km/h), the frame snapped behind the steering head:facepalm:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I had a car turn right in front of a RZ250 I was riding years ago.

A bystander told me that I had the back wheel a foot off the ground when I hit the car. I hung on until impact and thought I'd saved it - I got that baby pulled up real smart - but I hit the car with just enough speed to put me over the bars and face first on the bonnet. I guess that because the front suspension was under full compression when I hit (and I can't have been doing more that 30km/h), the frame snapped behind the steering head:facepalm:

Hey...didn't Aaron wreck an RZ250 in the side of a car as well!!?? I near cut one in 1/2 with a Z1R.

[p.dath]

NO! Is all emergency braking in a straight line? What are the consequences of locking a rear wheel when the emergency braking is on a curve? What is the benefit to the rider WHATSOEVER for locking the rear wheel?

I disagree. Emergency braking, the task of trying to bring a bike to a stop in the shortest distance, is done in a straight line.
Perhaps I am naive and too inexperienced. I'm not a great rider. I can't imagine a scenario where I would be attempting to emergency brake on a corner. You might as well just just surrender and decide where you are going to run off the road if you are planning on using braking to save your life while mid-corner. To me, if you run into a situation mid-corner, then you into a situation of planning how to best evade the danger, rather than stopping in the shortest distance possible using all the braking force you can muster.

I still do not believe it is a good practice to try and use as much braking force as you can in a corner. I can agree to using some rear brake, but I don't know if I would personally use this for an emergency scenario.


How does blipping the throttle help you "lose a lot of speed quickly"? Why are you drilling it as an emergency procedure then?

We don't drill on blipping down for emergencies. I mentioned that with regard to the comment that someone made about adjusting their brake so they could only apply it with the throttle closed - which would prevent blipping. You should be able to operate the throttle and front brake at the same time - or you simply can't blip while braking.

I'm really surprised by that comment (about how does blipping help reduce your speed quickly), especially since you have spent time on the track. I do think a track is a great place to learner blipping, and I do think it applies directly to the road, just not as intense.

With emergency braking, where you are trying to brake to a speed of zero, I advocate relying on the brakes rather than the engine to get your speed down.

However, when you are not actually trying to bring the bike to a halt, but are instead trying to set the bike up for a corner, then you tend to only use the front brake and engine braking. You are not trying to actually stop the bike, but choose a setup with a given entry and exit speed for the corner, which also involves specific gears. In this case, you will be wanting to brake with your front brake, while blipping and changing down to get into the gear you want to be in for the start of your corner set. Each blip down often leaves you near the top of your rev range, and because of this you get a significant engine braking effect (thank you compression).

Personally when I'm on the road I don't tend to ride as far up in my rev range as when I am on the road. But if I wanted to loose speed quickly, rather than blipping and changing down 1 gear, I could (revs permitting) blip and change down two gears. And thanks to the effect of compression (plus other effects that exceed my knowledge), the engine would apply a considerable braking force helping me loose a lot of speed quickly.

Bit of a ramble. But hope that explains my thinking. Like I say, there isn't one correct answer.

[bogan]

I disagree. Emergency braking, the task of trying to bring a bike to a stop in the shortest distance, is done in a straight line.
Perhaps I am naive and too inexperienced. I'm not a great rider. I can't imagine a scenario where I would be attempting to emergency brake on a corner. You might as well just just surrender and decide where you are going to run off the road if you are planning on using braking to save your life while mid-corner. To me, if you run into a situation mid-corner, then you into a situation of planning how to best evade the danger, rather than stopping in the shortest distance possible using all the braking force you can muster.

Emergency braking is done whenever there is an emergency! you can't pick that it is only going to be in a straight line :blink:

I think the use of rear brake could be more critical on a corner, as you won't be applying as much front brake so there will be far less weight transfer, allowing the rear to do more work in slowing you down.

As long as you leave yourself enough of a traction 'buffer', you can identify an emergency situation mid corner, use the buffer to slow down, thus freeing up even more traction to decelerate even quicker. The notion that you should just give up and bin it is absurd.

Also, some blip, some slip the clutch, some have slipper clutches, some just bang it down, there is no requirement that blipping is always an option, it comes down to whatever the rider feels best doing, much like the use of clutch in a hard stop.

[CookMySock]

Emergency braking, the task of trying to bring a bike to a stop in the shortest distance, is done in a straight line.What you are referring to, is setting up cones, motorcycle, and rider, in a controlled environment, and conducting a scientific experiment. In the real world you don't get to do that. All sorts of shit leaps out in front of you on a daily basis, especially out of the city where the roads are not regularly swept by traffic.



To me, if you run into a situation mid-corner, then you [have] a situation of planning how to best evade the danger, rather than stopping in the shortest distance possible using all the braking force you can muster.Exactly exactly exactly! :yes:


I still do not believe it is a good practice to try and use as much braking force as you can in a corner. I can agree to using some rear brake, but I don't know if I would personally use this for an emergency scenario.You really need to scrub off all the speed you are able, and you need to do it early. If you are fast running out of stopping room at least your options are opening more and more as distance expires less and less rapidly as speed comes off. In the end if you are still unable to stop, you can swerve and avoid the obstacle at low speed or hit it square on and leap over it.

If your brain just doesn't work this way and you'd prefer it did, then I'd suggest you took up a fast-paced sport such as squash or paragliding, and forced yourself to think on your feet.



I'm really surprised by that comment (about how does blipping help reduce your speed quickly), especially since you have spent time on the track. I do think a track is a great place to learner blipping, and I do think it applies directly to the road, just not as intense. With emergency braking, where you are trying to brake to a speed of zero, I advocate relying on the brakes rather than the engine to get your speed down.I think you will find racers stamp the fuck on all the brakes and just mash it down gears with the tacho hovering around redline - not quite the same way we'd treat our roadbikes, but in the end they have "emergency braking" down to a fine art - if they want to stay in front that is. For myself, I stamp on both brakes hard and keep going down gears without blipping, all the time leaving my "locked wheel" detector running.


Personally when I'm on the road I don't tend to ride as far up in my rev range as when I am on the road. But if I wanted to loose speed quickly, rather than blipping and changing down 1 gear, I could (revs permitting) blip and change down two gears. And thanks to the effect of compression (plus other effects that exceed my knowledge), the engine would apply a considerable braking force helping me loose a lot of speed quickly.For sure. I simply roll off the gas and one finger the front brake. Not worth the drama playing a song on the gearbox and the lean overrun jet unless she's really cute, in which case its big blue flame time!

Keep doing what you're doing! I wish there were opportunities to mentor down here, though I expect I would be bluntly excluded. Oh well.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I think you will find racers stamp the fuck on all the brakes and just mash it down gears with the tacho hovering around redline - not quite the same way we'd treat our roadbikes, but in the end they have "emergency braking" down to a fine art - if they want to stay in front that is. For myself, I stamp on both brakes hard and keep going down gears without blipping, all the time leaving my "locked wheel" detector running.

.

I think you'll find racers caress the brakes very gently. We just squeeze 'em harder than the average street rider, due to extra traction avail etc.

And if you don't have a slipper clutch...simply banging down gears will have your back wheel hopping like a bitch if you're not blipping the throttle.

[LBD]

I disagree. Emergency braking, the task of trying to bring a bike to a stop in the shortest distance, is done in a straight line.
.

Try emergency braking in a straight line...on a left hander with oncoming traffic and see where that gets you.....

[CookMySock]

[...] caress the brakes very gently [...] squeeze 'em harder than the average street riderYeah thats what i meant. :blink:

[p.dath]

For myself, I stamp on both brakes hard and keep going down gears without blipping, all the time leaving my "locked wheel" detector running.

If you have a slipper clutch then you could just stamp down the gears, but if you don't have a slipper clutch you have to rely on your expert human feedback system to detect the rear wheel locking during a change down.
Which one of these is your "locked wheel detector"?


Keep doing what you're doing! I wish there were opportunities to mentor down here, though I expect I would be bluntly excluded. Oh well.

I don't class myself as a mentor (insufficient experience). I'm more of an organiser, and try to get experienced riders along. But sometimes there just aren't more experienced riders available on the night, so I have to step in with my limited knowledge.

If you are every on the North Shore of Auckland on a Wednesday night your welcome to come along and participate or watch, on bike or come via car and watch. If you be great to replicate the NASS idea further around the country - of bikers helping bikers.

They do have a mentor programme on KB, but I have no idea what is involved in getting on it. And as you say, it can be contentious.

[Spearfish]

Gets tricky if you jump from a machine with both levers as brakes to one with a clutch, so I tend to squeeze both in emergency braking situations to cover my bases, the humour comes in relating to the foot brake I cant do the same thing on both without ending up standing up on one of them.:facepalm:

[george formby]

I disagree. Emergency braking, the task of trying to bring a bike to a stop in the shortest distance, is done in a straight line.
Perhaps I am naive and too inexperienced. I'm not a great rider. I can't imagine a scenario where I would be attempting to emergency brake on a corner. You might as well just just surrender and decide where you are going to run off the road if you are planning on using braking to save your life while mid-corner. To me, if you run into a situation mid-corner, then you into a situation of planning how to best evade the danger, rather than stopping in the shortest distance possible using all the braking force you can muster.

I still do not believe it is a good practice to try and use as much braking force as you can in a corner. I can agree to using some rear brake, but I don't know if I would personally use this for an emergency scenario.




I have experienced a mid corner emergency. I guess I must have been doing something right because my speed was such that it did not turn into a collision. I used everything I had to slow & maneuver the bike without crossing the centre line which would have been potentially fatal. I stood the bike up for maximum front braking but had it sideways so I was braking into the corner not towards the centre line.
Without the experience I had off road I doubt very much I could have done this.

Emergency braking is whatever it takes to stay upright in the circumstances. Practicing in a flat, dry, controlled environment only in a straight line is a limited set of skills.

The single biggest influence that has kept me out of the poo when my eyeballs are pressed against the visor is looking where I want to go, avoiding object fixation & going for the gap, whether it be mid corner, in the rain or avoiding city traffic. You have to ride the bike right through the incident, shaving a meter off your best stopping distance in a car park somewhere ain't worth squat when the chips are down & fate throws a load of unknowns at you.

[CookMySock]

[...] if you don't have a slipper clutch you have to rely on your expert human feedback system to detect the rear wheel locking during a change down. Which one of these is your "locked wheel detector"?The final drive (chain!) and rear wheel gives a really loud chatter-chatter-chatter when its starting to lock up. You can quite safely practice this yourself (*standard disclaimer applies kthx) by braking harder and harder with the rear only in a straight line on a dry road. You should begin the manoevre at about 40km/hr and about 3,000rpm ish with the clutch lever fully released, and just add more and more rear brake until you get the the chatter. Normal engine operation = no skidding, chatter-chatter = starting to lock, engine goes silent = release the fucker pronto!


I don't class myself as a mentor (insufficient experience). I'm more of an organiser, and try to get experienced riders along. But sometimes there just aren't more experienced riders available on the night, so I have to step in with my limited knowledge.Well you are doing a good thing, and you must be doing other things right as well, to get invited in the first place.


If you are every on the North Shore of Auckland on a Wednesday night your welcome to come along and participate or watch, on bike or come via car and watch. If you be great to replicate the NASS idea further around the country - of bikers helping bikers.Thank you, I value that greatly.


They do have a mentor programme on KB, but I have no idea what is involved in getting on it. And as you say, it can be contentious.Apologies and respect to the current Mentors, but those who appoint the Mentors are more interested in cock sucking the oldskool than having anyone actually speak sound logic. Until that changes anyone who hasn't been riding for the last 75 years and is a good mate of the the hierachy is just wasting their time trying to make any valuable contribution. Anyway in the end, I should probably just go look after myself and those who love me.

Thank you for the interesting exchange! I DID manage to learn a few things there as well. I'd shake yer hand, but a friends request will have to do in the meanwhile.

:cool::ride:

Steve

[Metastable]

..... you'll find their injuries were from getting the hand trapped by the lever and or handle bar and having the flesh ground off them.

(Sorry for the slight thread derailment)

It is like an epidemic with road racers.
Troy B.
McWilliams
Roger L. Hayden
Crutchlow (very recently)
and I know I am forgetting of at least 1 more that was withing the last year or two...
plus one guy at the last trackday I was at.... he lost 2 fingers from one hand.... but it was never clear as to why.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Then there's Doug Polen losing most toes and a fair bit of his foot in the chain and sprockets of his Ducati...

[gatch]

You should not be concerned about locking up the rear under emergency braking. If you are braking hard the rear often locks up, because the weight comes of the rear tyre. As the rear tyre has less and less traction with the ground it becomes easier and easier to lock up. At this point the rear brake has pretty much no input. Hence it makes no difference weather it locks up.



I disagree. The rear wheel while it is spinning is effectively a gyro yes ? The stabilizing effect of the rear wheel turning could be the difference between a crash and a safe E stop.

And if you are having to E brake mid turn, a back wheel lock up could well kill you as fast as the obstacle you are trying to avoid..

[gatch]

(1) If you are fast running out of stopping room at least your options are opening more and more as distance expires less and less rapidly as speed comes off. In the end if you are still unable to stop, you can swerve and avoid the obstacle at low speed or hit it square on and leap over it.

(2) I think you will find racers stamp the fuck on all the brakes and just mash it down gears with the tacho hovering around redline - not quite the same way we'd treat our roadbikes, but in the end they have "emergency braking" down to a fine art - if they want to stay in front that is. For myself, I stamp on both brakes hard and keep going down gears without blipping, all the time leaving my "locked wheel" detector running.

(3) Keep doing what you're doing! I wish there were opportunities to mentor down here, though I expect I would be bluntly excluded. Oh well.

1. NO. FFS as you get closer to your obstacle your options are fast running out. Especially if you are carrying too much speed to stop in time. I am not a physics teacher, but someone who knows the math can tell you better than I.

2. IF you try this "mash and stamp" racer technique of yours, you will find youself waking up in an ambulance. Or not.

3. FOR GOOD REASON. YOU WOULD SEND SOMEONE TO THEIR DEATH.