Another one bites the dust

[Oblivion]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10714935

Should I be surprised? :gob:

[Usarka]

Why exactly are you wondering if you should be surprised?

[ynot slow]

Can see Katmans' views on crashes almost when this is written,not doing our cause to lower fees etc any bloody good.
Assuming the reporting on erratically riding can be proved.

[FJRider]

Considering the state of a lot of the roads in Christchurch at the moment ... to someone who is unfamilar with motorcycles .. the riding style may look "erratic" ...

Save the silly comments untill the facts come out ...

[Mekk]

Could have been erratically avoiding the van.

[Katman]

(Before anyone starts, I'm not speculating on this accident - I'm speaking generally.....)

It is imperitive that we, as a whole, become intolerant of avoidable accidents.

Until there is widespread condemnation from within ourselves for inattentive and/or irresponsible riding nothing much is going to change.

"Aw bugger, don't worry though, bikes can easily be replaced" is such a piss weak attitude to adopt.

[Katman]

And........

We need to stop searching for ways of trying to explain an accident off as "unavoidable" and rather, look for ways of seeing how it could well have been avoidable. (And not the usual piss weak argument of - "yeah well, I suppose I could have stayed home that day instead").

[ynot slow]

Considering the state of a lot of the roads in Christchurch at the moment ... to someone who is unfamilar with motorcycles .. the riding style may look "erratic" ...

Save the silly comments untill the facts come out ...

Shoot the messenger why don't you.How many people will read this story and think "typical dickhead driver(yep all drivers)"without waiting for facts,whether road was to play or not is unimportant to those people.

[Elysium]

The story seems to imply the rider is somewhat at fault by his 'erratic driving' as described by witnesses. No I'm not surprised by this but at the same time I'm getting tired of reading this sort of shit in the media.

Katman you're cunt but have to agree that there needs to be more of an effort from us to stop this shit from happening. I'm really starting to get sick of seeing riders out there going hard out in town and wearing fuck all protection.

Example being someone living in my street who rides a Kawaka ZX6 up and down my street almost daily at around 80-100km/h and only wearing shorts, shit and shoes. :oi-grr:

[Usarka]

FFS the guy may have had a stroke or something. It's sad that people automatically assume he was riding like an idiot without any proof. Twats.

[Elysium]

FFS the guy may have had a stroke or something. It's sad that people automatically assume he was riding like an idiot without any proof. Twats.

True he may have had a heart attack. Will have to wait until the full story comes out. No one is implying this guy was at fault, just that the media has made look that way.

[onearmedbandit]

Lets assume the guy was riding like a tool. A 42yr old tool. How many other 'middle-aged' guys do you see acting like tools on the roads in cars? Shed loads. You know the type, shaved head, goatee, identical mate in the passengers seat, driving a 89 EA Fairmont. Are these guys reachable? Do they give a fuck about fines? Do they give a fuck about other people? Do they give a fuck whether they have a license or not?

Is it honestly motorcyclists responsibility for these guys? Do we tar all car drivers with the same brush when we bump into Shane and Dazza in the Fairmont? My point is, there are idiots everywhere, we will never get rid of them. And so we will always have stories like this, assuming the guy was riding like a tool.

If it turns out it was as the media have portrayed it, I wouldn't be surprised to learn it's a Triumph Speed Triple or Four. I've seen one getting around in that area of recent, guy rides like a maniac with or without a passenger. I've been next to him at lights and he'd be about that age group too.

[Toaster]

FFS the guy may have had a stroke or something. It's sad that people automatically assume he was riding like an idiot without any proof. Twats.

Agreed.

Media... when have they ever reported facts? As usual they dig for opinion that sells headlines at the expense of those involved.

[Toaster]

It is imperitive that we, as a whole, become intolerant of avoidable accidents.

Until there is widespread condemnation from within ourselves for inattentive and/or irresponsible riding nothing much is going to change.

Agreed. One thing I do as an individual is start the ride by reminding myself to focus and be prepared for anything, making sure concentration is 100%. Then at the end asking myself what I could have done better, rather than accept the status quo with my own riding.

It's about fun, but also and making it home safe to ride another day.

As my 3 year old son tells me when I leave... "Daddy be sensible, be smart, be safe". Yes he is only 3.

[over5tayer]

Agreed.

Media... when have they ever reported facts? As usual they dig for opinion that sells headlines at the expense of those involved.


if it became habit for every rider to attach a camera before they saddled up the media would be forced to report the facts. We could all then benefit from the incident by having Katman critically analyse the shit out of the video - pointing out everything that the rider did wrong and what they should have done right.

[Toaster]

if it became habit for every rider to attach a camera before they saddled up the media would be forced to report the facts. We could all then benefit from the incident by having Katman critically analyse the shit out of the video - pointing out everything that the rider did wrong and what they should have done right.

Digital media headlines are issued quickly and without regard for the facts. Retractions usually make a couple lines in the middle pages long after the story hype is gone.

[over5tayer]

Digital media headlines are issued quickly and without regard for the facts. Retractions usually make a couple lines in the middle pages long after the story hype is gone.


the initial media stories released seem to be driven by the 'hunch' of what the first officer on the scene believed to have happened. If the cops viewed the footage straight away (they all have laptops in their squad cars) then they could at least make a half accurate report on what actually happened.

[MSTRS]

the initial media stories released seem to be driven by the 'hunch' of what the first officer on the scene believed to have happened. If the cops viewed the footage straight away (they all have laptops in their squad cars) then they could at least make a half accurate report on what actually happened.

I don't think it would make any difference.
We all know "the camera doesn't lie"...but we also know that a camera cannot capture everything, either. Also, a camera can give a somewhat distorted impression of what happened.
Besides, who in their right mind is going to include their speedo in the frame? :innocent:

[Katman]

if it became habit for every rider to attach a camera before they saddled up the media would be forced to report the facts.

Now there's a scary thought. :facepalm:

[swbarnett]

Assuming the reporting on erratically riding can be proved.
Doesn't have to be proven. Just the insinuation is enough, whether it's true or not. It is irresponsible of anybody in an official capacity to speculate publicly before the investigation is complete.

[James Deuce]

As my 3 year old son tells me when I leave... "Daddy be sensible, be smart, be safe". Yes he is only 3.

Yet when he's 13 he'll spray white spirits on his pubes and set fire to them because someone dares him to. Unfortunately they don;t stay the same through out their development.

[James Deuce]

if it became habit for every rider to attach a camera before they saddled up the media would be forced to report the facts.done right.

Fucking shut up. Jeebus save us!

[over5tayer]

it was just an idea... bad rep was kinda harsh :(

[oldrider]

Yet when he's 13 he'll spray white spirits on his pubes and set fire to them because someone dares him to. Unfortunately they don;t stay the same through out their development.

Not to mention sticking a "skyrocket" up his arse and lighting it .... man there are some fuckwits out there! :shit:

Of course in my day we ..... err what did we do again .... thinking ... thinking .... oh yeah, we were just as silly too! :facepalm:

[James Deuce]

oh yeah, we were just as silly too! :facepalm:

Yeah, there was this one time at band camp when someone brought out the nugget. I think it was supposed to be funny.

[Usarka]

Not to mention sticking a "skyrocket" up his arse and lighting it .... man there are some fuckwits out there! :shit:


Can't get skyrockets now. Have too make bombs off the internets instead.

[swbarnett]

As my 3 year old son tells me when I leave... "Daddy be sensible, be smart, be safe". Yes he is only 3.
This sort of thing really scares me. A 3 year old should be experimenting with life, not worrying about life's risks. Our society has become so risk averse that it's starting to seriously get in the way of living. So a few people die, so what? We all die at some point. If I happened to know one of them then it would hurt but, quite frankly, we care far too much today about people we've never had anything to do with. Before the advent of mass media the general mortality rate was a lot higher than it is today. Did the average member of the public really care? No, they didn't, because they didn't get to hear about it. They just got on with their lives in blissful ignorance.

Now I'm not saying that there weren't things that needed to change because the risk was unacceptable. What I am saying is that most, if not all, of these have already changed and we have now moved on to the lesser risks that just aren't a problem in daily life.

Do I wish the road toll was lower? Of course. However, it has become clear to me that the cost of reducing it any further (if this is even possible) is just plain too high. Just look at all the monitoring technologies that are being considered for all motor vehicles. In the name of saving ONE life the true life of that person, and the rest of us, is being systematically taken away.

Life involves risk. This will never change. Because of this we have been hard-wired by evolution to cope with it to the point that we actually require a certain level of risk or we go mad (just look at the popularity of extreme sports).

[Katman]

Do I wish the road toll was lower? Of course. However, it has become clear to me that the cost of reducing it any further (if this is even possible) is just plain too high.

Sometimes you sound weird and other times you talk a load of shit.

We could reduce the toll without one single cent being spent.

[onearmedbandit]

Kids at 3yrs old are only really repeating what they've heard from others.

[Oblivion]

Sometimes you sound weird and other times you talk a load of shit.

We could reduce the toll without one single cent being spent.

Will that happen? Most likely not. All the governments that have been and gone, have had this innate sense that all problems can get fixed by throwing money at it.

As soon as someone makes a suggestion, they reach for their checkbook.

[Katman]

Will that happen? Most likely not.

For the sake of the future of motorcycling in New Zealand we had better start fucking trying.

[swbarnett]

We could reduce the toll without one single cent being spent.
You have a very poor understanding of human nature.

This we you talk about consists of a disparate group of individual humans. Within any group of humans you will get those like you that believe survival is more important than living, those that throw caution to the wind in the name of adrenalin and those like me who are somewhere in the middle. It is unrealistic to expect every individual in any given group to act in a way that will remove any chance of harm.

To live too safe a life is to not live at all.

What constitutes "too safe a life" varies from one person to another and cannot be imposed from outside.

[Katman]

Within any group of humans you will get those like you that believe survival is more important than living


You still haven't figured me out at all, have you?

I'm not primarily crusading to ensure the survival of individuals, I'm crusading to protect the future of motorcycling in New Zealand (and in doing so, protecting many of the very liberties you seem so happy to espouse).

[Usarka]

What constitutes "too safe a life" varies from one person to another and cannot be imposed from outside.

And sometimes varies between an individuals stages in life.

A lot of these preachers weren't always angels in years gone by. I often wonder how they would have reacted to being told how to ride when they were young(er) or more risk-orientated. My guess is the first word of the reply would have been Get.

[Katman]

A lot of these preachers weren't always angels in years gone by. I often wonder how they would have reacted to being told how to ride when they were young(er) or more risk-orientated. My guess is the first word of the reply would have been Get.

As society evolves/regresses (take your pick), the idea of "do as I say - not as I've done" becomes a perfectly valid argument.

[swbarnett]

For the sake of the future of motorcycling in New Zealand we had better start fucking trying.
It takes such a small percentage of motorcyclists being idiots to engender bad public and government feeling that this is just totally unrealistic. Better to just keep living our lives as we see fit and fight any attempt to force us to do otherwise.

[Edbear]

Agreed. One thing I do as an individual is start the ride by reminding myself to focus and be prepared for anything, making sure concentration is 100%. Then at the end asking myself what I could have done better, rather than accept the status quo with my own riding.

It's about fun, but also and making it home safe to ride another day.

As my 3 year old son tells me when I leave... "Daddy be sensible, be smart, be safe". Yes he is only 3.

Smart boy, musta inherited his mother's brains.... :innocent:

[swbarnett]

You still haven't figured me out at all, have you?

I'm not primarily crusading to ensure the survival of individuals, I'm crusading to protect the future of motorcycling in New Zealand (and in doing so, protecting many of the very liberties you seem so happy to espouse).
Actually, I applaud your motives. But what comes across is that you are trying to save motorcycling by having every motorcyclist ride in a way that doesn't look dangerous to those that know nothing about riding (whether it is in fact dangerous or not). It also appears that you want to reduce the road toll to zero. I don't believe that either of these outcomes are achievable.

Although you and I are after the same outcome I take a different view of what has a chance of achieving it. You can't change the attitude of everyone in any given group (if that group is large enough). The best you can hope to do is change the attitude of the majority. If the majority of motorcyclists already ride resonsibly then trying to get the rest to ride responsibly is tantamount to flogging a dead horse. Far better to attempt to change the attitude and perception of the majority of the non-motorcycling public as without a majority of negative feeling motorcycling is safe.

[Katman]

If the majority of motorcyclists already ride resonsibly then trying to get the rest to ride responsibly is tantamount to flogging a dead horse.

If 60% of motorcyclists are riding responsibly and we're still copping the flak we are then those 60% better start kicking the 40% in the fucking arse.

[Oblivion]

If 60% of motorcyclists are riding responsibly and we're still copping the flak we are then those 60% better start kicking the 40% in the fucking arse.

At least we are not giving them lectures on how to be safe and all that. That'll really keep the figure down :facepalm:

[Katman]

At least we are not giving them lectures on how to be safe and all that. That'll really keep the figure down :facepalm:

No, we're excusing their mediocrity/stupidity instead.

[Oblivion]

No, we're excusing their mediocrity/stupidity instead.

Had a quick look at your post before thinking, and I swear I saw exploited :lol:

[swbarnett]

If 60% of motorcyclists are riding responsibly and we're still copping the flak we are then those 60% better start kicking the 40% in the fucking arse.
I see where you're coming from and I wish it were that simple.

You could have 99% riding responsibly and the public attitude and perception of motorcyclists would probably not change. However, if 60% of the voting public had a good attitude towards motorcyclists then the government would have no mandate to come down hard on all of us because of the remaining 1%.

[Katman]

I see where you're coming from and I wish it were that simple.


Therein lies your problem.

It actually is that very fucking simple.

[Ocean1]

Therein lies your problem.

It actually is that very fucking simple.

He's not the one with a problem.

And if you stuck to fucking simple you'd be considered well qualified to speak on the subject.

[swbarnett]

Therein lies your problem.

It is actually very fucking simple.
Yes, on the surface it looks that way. If it were noone would leave school without being able to read or write.

Remember the saying:
You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

You can't teach people that don't want to learn.

[Oblivion]

Yes, on the surface it looks that way. If it were noone would leave school without being able to read or write.

Remember the saying:
You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.

You can't teach people that don't want to learn.

And that can make things worse than they already are.

[Katman]

You can't teach people that don't want to learn.

When some people hear the words "you're a fucking cock" often enough it often leads to them them sitting down one day and wondering why people are always saying it. Often that leads to a reassessment of their direction.

(Not me though, of course). :msn-wink:

[James Deuce]

(Not me though, of course). :msn-wink:

And with good reason.

[swbarnett]

When some people hear the words "you're a fucking cock" often enough it often leads to them them sitting down one day and wondering why people are always saying it. Often that leads to a reassessment of their direction.
While this is true in some cases it will not always work. Depending on the person on the receiving end it can also lead to a pathological resentment of society in general. Thus leading to exctly the opposite result that was intended.

[Katman]

While this is true in some cases it will not always work. Depending on the person on the receiving end it can also lead to a pathological resentment of society in general. Thus leading to exctly the opposite result that was intended.

I can live with a 1:10 ratio.

[Conquiztador]

I am fuckin sure this whole thread is a repost... Or a c/p. :yawn:

[Katman]

I am fuckin sure this whole thread is a repost... Or a c/p. :yawn:

Unfortunately, you're not far wrong.

[Spearfish]

if it became habit for every rider to attach a camera before they saddled up the media would be forced to report the facts. We could all then benefit from the incident by having Katman critically analyse the shit out of the video - pointing out everything that the rider did wrong and what they should have done right.

Unfortunately many cant fit a camera and record the events leading up to a crash because their insurance company don't want them to admit liability.

[swbarnett]

I can live with a 1:10 ratio.
If you reach 1 rider in 10 you will perhaps save a life or two but you won't change the public perception of motorcycling. What you may do is alienate some of the other 9. By all means try and educate but telling someone repeatedly they are a dickhead is seldom a good idea.

[James Deuce]

If you reach 1 rider in 10 you will perhaps save a life or two but you won't change the public perception of motorcycling. What you may do is alienate some of the other 9. By all means try and educate but telling someone repeatedly they are a dickhead is seldom a good idea.

TO be honest, who the fuck cares. Most motorcyclists are ignorant cunts.

[swbarnett]

TO be honest, who the fuck cares. Most motorcyclists are ignorant cunts.
Too true. Although I prefer the term Rebel

[Katman]

Although I prefer the term Rebel

How truly fucking sad.

[Flip]

You are a sad cock.

[James Deuce]

You are a sad cock.

Good man! But you could have made it less stilted by using "you're" instead of "you are".

[Flip]

Point taken.

You're a sad cock Katman.

Much better.

[James Deuce]

Don't leave me out. I happen to agree wholeheartedly with Mr Katman.

[Oblivion]

I've got popcorn. Who wants some :corn:

[Kickaha]

Don't leave me out. I happen to agree wholeheartedly with Mr Katman.

As do I

My partner said I should be in porn because I'm a big cock

[Toaster]

This sort of thing really scares me. A 3 year old should be experimenting with life, not worrying about life's risks.

A tad OTT there fella.

He got the quote from watching a kids "big trains" video and says it because his mother always says to me to be safe when I go out for a ride.

Chill.

[Toaster]

Yet when he's 13 he'll spray white spirits on his pubes and set fire to them because someone dares him to. Unfortunately they don;t stay the same through out their development.

Hehe! Did it hurt Jim?

[Toaster]

the initial media stories released seem to be driven by the 'hunch' of what the first officer on the scene believed to have happened. If the cops viewed the footage straight away (they all have laptops in their squad cars) then they could at least make a half accurate report on what actually happened.

Media say what they like based on third party reports more often than attending police.

No they do not have laptops in all the cars.

As you say... make a half accurate report.

[Voltaire]

Hey Katman...I bet your keyboard and mouse gets more use than your Katana...


"Keyboard and Mouseman....Superheroes Saving Motorcyclists From Themselves Since Way Back":innocent:

[swbarnett]

How truly fucking sad.
Maybe I should'ce added a "p/t".

[swbarnett]

A tad OTT there fella.

He got the quote from watching a kids "big trains" video and says it because his mother always says to me to be safe when I go out for a ride.

Chill.
Perhaps, but today's focus on safety is a bit OTT as well. It's threatening to destroy all that's good about life.

[jafar]

Too true. Although I prefer the term Rebel

Isn't that a gang ??:facepalm:

[ClutchITUP]

When some people hear the words "you're a fucking cock" often enough it often leads to them them sitting down one day and wondering why people are always saying it. Often that leads to a reassessment of their direction.

(Not me though, of course). :msn-wink:

you're a fucken cock

[98tls]

you're a fucken cock

Perfect then,you sound like a cunt.Amazing innit theres only the interweb between you and your perfect match.:love:

[FJRider]

Perfect then,you sound like a cunt.Amazing innit theres only the interweb between you and your perfect match.:love:

He's just another that can't come up with an original thought ... I like to think of them as a "key-board parrot" ...

[98tls]

He's just another that can't come up with an original thought ... I like to think of them as a "key-board parrot" ...

No idea havent read the thread just caught that bit at the end.:shutup:

[FJRider]

No idea havent read the thread ...

No need ... :facepalm:

[idb]

Agreed. One thing I do as an individual is start the ride by reminding myself to focus and be prepared for anything, making sure concentration is 100%. Then at the end asking myself what I could have done better, rather than accept the status quo with my own riding.

It's about fun, but also and making it home safe to ride another day.

As my 3 year old son tells me when I leave... "Daddy be sensible, be smart, be safe". Yes he is only 3.

That doesn't sound like having fun at all, that sounds like an OSH procedure...

[ClutchITUP]

We all know Katman is a riding god an would never ride dangerously or bring motorcycling into disrepute. unless hes on the coro drinkin an speeding that is

He spends hours trying to get HIS message across I for once was agreeing with him i.e if you tell someone they are a fucken cock enough maybe he will one day sitdown an relise, He is not showing any respect to a biker that is no longer here
with another 7 page long katman knows best thread

Cunt = usefull. thanks

[Kickaha]

He is not showing any respect to a biker that is no longer here

Just because someone is either a biker or dead or a combination of both doesn't automatically mean they should be respected

[ClutchITUP]

I dont like to disrepect anyone that I know nothing about. I know enough about katmans message to know I dont respect him or his arguement but then Im young enough to enjoy life instead filling KB with pointless dribble instead of giving the wife a good rodgering

[Kickaha]

I know enough about katmans message to know I dont respect him or his arguement

He has a pretty shit way of delivering his message but it one that is well worth taking onboard unless of course you're dumb enough to think the safety of motorcyclists and accident avoidance isn't worth bothering with

[FJRider]

He has a pretty shit way of delivering his message but it one that is well worth taking onboard unless of course you're dumb enough to think the safety of motorcyclists and accident avoidance isn't worth bothering with

It's those that can't ... or won't be told ... that make the most noise ..

Where accident avoidence isn't an issue ... untill ... they're in the middle of one ...

[sinfull]

I dont like to disrepect anyone that I know nothing about. I know enough about katmans message to know I dont respect him or his arguement Could you possibly elaberate ? No, not on what you just said, more pertaining to what the message is that KM tries to get across ?

but then Im young enough to enjoy life instead filling KB with pointless dribble instead of giving the wife a good rodgering


unless of course you're dumb enough to think the safety of motorcyclists and accident avoidance isn't worth bothering with You forget the pack mentallity that KB produces, that has these guys coming along for a poke and kick because they aint alone in the attack ! But then he's young enough to enjoy life, filling KB with pointless dribble instead of giving the wife a good rodgering !

[Toaster]

That doesn't sound like having fun at all, that sounds like an OSH procedure...

It sure beats lying in a hospital bed because you screwed up.

[Toaster]

Isn't that a gang ??:facepalm:

No, it is a club for motorcycling enthusiasts.

[idb]

It sure beats lying in a hospital bed because you screwed up.

Do you go through the same process with everything you do?
It's also no fun to spill boiling water on yourself, to twist your ankle when you get out of bed, to bang the freezer door down on your head when you close it.

[jafar]

No, it is a club for motorcycling enthusiasts.

TUI on its way to you mate :drinkup:

[Edbear]

It sure beats lying in a hospital bed because you screwed up.

I can vouch for that.... :yes:

[shrub]

We could reduce the toll without one single cent being spent.

The thing is, we are reducing the road toll. When did you last have an off? Mine was in 1986 and I would guess most of the people posting in this thread have a similar story. You and I ride with our brains engaged (most of the time) because I am allergic to pain, can't afford time off in hospital and can't bear the thought of hurting my bike. I (and I'm guessing you) have done stupid shit like slam on the front brake in the middle of a corner because I didn't know better, I have ridden crap bikes with no brakes and rubber frames that have spat me off and I have gone for a ride at the end of a bottle of tequila (and then spent 2 months in hospital).

I doubt the stats are available, but I would make an educated guess that most serious bike crashes, including SMIDSYs, involve riders who lack the experience and skill to ride safely and keep their bikes in tip top order. People who come into a corner overcooked and don't know to push hard on the inside handlebar instead of braking; people who use their footbrake to slow down; people who ride pissed or tired; people who have bugger all wet weather and/or gravel experience. People who lack the skills and experience you and I have learned from hundreds of thousands of kms and many years riding. I would also be interested to know how many of them were wearing full gear, how many kms they rode a year, how many had undergone training and how many either diligently maintained their bikes or had them regularly serviced.

Yeah, the easiest way to cut the bike crash rate is for motorcyclists to lift their game, but which motorcyclists? I'm not arrogant enough to claim I can't improve my riding or that I'm always on top of my game - I do stupid shit too, and sometimes I still find that red mist descending (less and less these days), but when I do fuck up and ride like a dick I know it, and I feel stupid when it happens.

I personally think there are very few riders out there who deliberately set out to ride dangerously because the results of coming off range from fucking horrible to incredibly fucking horrible. I do however think most riders who come off did so because they didn't know better or had bad habits, and that means the most effective way to improve the bike crash rate is to find people who lack the skills and who do stupid shit like stomp on the footbrake to slow down like they do in their cars, and teach them how to stay upright.

And on that note, it's a sunny day, I have done all the work I had in my to do list and I am off for a ride.

[shrub]

BTW I got pulled over by a cop a few years ago because they thought my riding was erratic - I had just had a new back tyre fitted and was gently weaving from side to scrub it in. When I explained the cop said "next time don't buy tyres with wax on them". Excellent idea, if Don opens shop again I'll ask him for wax-free tyres next time.

[Katman]

Personally, I cringe when I hear motorcyclists talk of riding motorcycles as 'fun'.

It may be semantics but I believe the use of the word 'fun' indicates a lack of recognition of the fact that riding a motorcycle is something that needs to be taken seriously.

[idb]

Personally, I cringe when I hear motorcyclists talk of riding motorcycles as 'fun'.

It may be semantics but I believe the use of the word 'fun' indicates a lack of recognition of the fact that riding a motorcycle is something that needs to be taken seriously.

Well...in that case you and I ride for different reasons.

[Usarka]

Quick hide it really is the fun police!

[Toaster]

Do you go through the same process with everything you do?
It's also no fun to spill boiling water on yourself, to twist your ankle when you get out of bed, to bang the freezer door down on your head when you close it.

Ridiculous comparison.

All I said was I take a moment to think and prepare before riding. I try to give myself the best chance of surviving, having been very close to not surviving in the past. That crash nearly destroyed my life costing me almost all I had.

It is also something taught at a professional riding course, to switch on before riding and be alert.

If you want to ride around without regard for the risks, go ahead.

[Toaster]

I can vouch for that.... :yes:

Thanks Ed, case in point.

[Maha]

Personally, I cringe when I hear motorcyclists talk of riding motorcycles as 'fun'.

It may be semantics but I believe the use of the word 'fun' indicates a lack of recognition of the fact that riding a motorcycle is something that needs to be taken seriously.

Not when you're in 'the zone'.

[Edbear]

Personally, I cringe when I hear motorcyclists talk of riding motorcycles as 'fun'.

It may be semantics but I believe the use of the word 'fun' indicates a lack of recognition of the fact that riding a motorcycle is something that needs to be taken seriously.

Perhaps for some that may be the case, however there are many activities pursued for fun that require high levels of skill and awareness. After 40 years, I still, (or did until my accident), ride for the sheer fun and enjoyment of riding above all other reasons.

Yes, we do need to be aware of what we're doing, there are precious few activities that don't carry risk and we should not be too cavalier about riding or skiiing, or mountain climbing or flying etc. But if you're not having fun, why do it?

[Katman]

But if you're not having fun, why do it?

I see a distinction between 'fun' and 'enjoyment'.

As I said, it may be semantics or it may just be a different state of mind.

[Edbear]

I see a distinction between 'fun' and 'enjoyment'.

As I said, it may be semantics or it may just be a different state of mind.

LOL!!! You could be right, I do enjoy having fun, though... :innocent:

[idb]

Ridiculous comparison.

All I said was I take a moment to think and prepare before riding. I try to give myself the best chance of surviving, having been very close to not surviving in the past. That crash nearly destroyed my life costing me almost all I had.

It is also something taught at a professional riding course, to switch on before riding and be alert.

If you want to ride around without regard for the risks, go ahead.

I have a very well developed sense of self-preservation.
I've also spent some time in hospital due to a prang.

I'm getting on your case a bit and I'm sorry, but I admit that I get bored reading about how deadly dangerous riding a bike is and how everyone else on the road is out to kill us etc etc.
You brought the dramatics into the thread when you mentioned your young son pleading for you to be careful.
I don't understand why some people are even riding a bike if they are so damned terrified by it.

I make sure I have good gear that I always wear, I ride within myself (except for the odd red mist moment - if I'm being honest), I use common sense.

To me, it's fun, I don't analyse it too much...it just is.
The day I feel the need to fill out a Hazard ID sheet before going for a ride and carry out a debrief afterwards is the day I'll stop.

Again, I'm sorry if I dumped on you, we're obviously different types of people...but that's OK too...

Rant over...I feel a bit better.

[Katman]

To me, it's fun, I don't analyse it too much...it just is.


I liken 'fun' to how children play with 'toys'. (Absolutely no offence intended to you - I'm simply trying to explain my viewpoint).

I don't see road bikes as 'toys'.

[MSTRS]

Recreational enjoyment or fun. Amounts to the same thing.

[idb]

I liken 'fun' to how children play with 'toys'. (Absolutely no offence intended - I'm simply trying to explain my viewpoint).

I don't see road bikes as 'toys'.

Fair enough, no offence taken...my bikes are my toys though...

[Katman]

Fair enough, no offence taken...my bikes are my toys though...

And maybe sub-consciously you're making the same distinction I am - without getting caught up in semantics.

Unfortunately there are far too many motorcyclists who see their bike as nothing more than a Tonka truck in a sandpit.

[Oblivion]

Unfortunately there are far too many motorcyclists who see their bike as nothing more than a Tonka truck in a sandpit.

They are near indestructible though. The Tonka trucks that is. :facepalm:

[Usarka]

All I said was I take a moment to think and prepare before riding. I try to give myself the best chance of surviving, having been very close to not surviving in the past. That crash nearly destroyed my life costing me almost all I had.

It is also something taught at a professional riding course, to switch on before riding and be alert.

If you want to ride around without regard for the risks, go ahead.

Yet you still choose to ride regardless of the fact that driving a car is a safer option. Acceptable risk is not an absolute, one person can not say "this is what I choose" and expect others to do the same.

BTW - I'm almost in the same camp as you, and I don't always ride like a nana at 90kph (compared to myself but probably uber-tame compared to others), just as I go kite surfing and other "fun" risky activities even though one more knock to the head will probably = vegetable patch. I think the "message" should be risk mitigation, not risk elimination otherwise we should all hang the keys up and buy a toyota starlet.

[Katman]

I think the "message" should be risk mitigation, not risk elimination otherwise we should all hang the keys up and buy a toyota starlet.

Good for you.

I knew you'd eventually get it.

[Usarka]

Good for you.

I knew you'd eventually get it.

No this has been my belief all along. In fact I'll bet $1000 that I haven't crashed a bike more recently than you, (therefore I could easily argue that I am a safer rider than you). Willing to put money where mouth is?

You're extremism envokes a natural human response to fight back which I will continue to do as I think it does more harm than good. In fact sometimes I think of you harping on when I'm riding and it makes me go faster. And I know it gives you wood to know that people think of you when riding, but not quite the same result you're hoping for eh.

[Katman]

You're extremism envokes a natural human response to fight back which I will continue to do as I think it does more harm than good.

Fuck off dickhead - what's extreme about wanting to slash our accident figures so we cop less heat from the powers that be?





(Fuck me, anyone would think I was trying to slap a fucking jihad down on your arse).

[Usarka]

Fuck off dickhead - what's extreme about wanting to slash our accident figures so we cop less heat from the powers that be?

Do you really want me to go and quote all your posts?

Not up for the $1000 bet poofter?

[Katman]

Do you really want me to go and quote all your posts?



Quote away.

[Usarka]

Quote away.

No I've got better things to do like floss the cat. Found this one though


I'm a hypocrite and have no balls

[Katman]

No I've got better things to do like floss the cat.

Fail.<hgvhgvhjv>

[Usarka]

Fail.

Oh man you got me with your superior wit and intellect.

Seriously dude either lay off the crack or go see a doctor.

ps - I'm loggin off so you can even have the last word....

[sinfull]

Personally, I cringe when I hear motorcyclists talk of riding motorcycles as 'fun'.

It may be semantics but I believe the use of the word 'fun' indicates a lack of recognition of the fact that riding a motorcycle is something that needs to be taken seriously. I take riding my motorcycles seriously Steve !


I see a distinction between 'fun' and 'enjoyment'.

As I said, it may be semantics or it may just be a different state of mind.
State of mind ? Does the term blowing cobwebs out ring a bell here mate ? I ride because it brings a different state of mind (think skydive) Am i the only one here who rides because it is far more dangerous than driving ?


I liken 'fun' to how children play with 'toys'. (Absolutely no offence intended to you - I'm simply trying to explain my viewpoint).

I don't see road bikes as 'toys'. Did you play with fire crackers ? I made my own !


No this has been my belief all along. In fact I'll bet $1000 that I haven't crashed a bike more recently than you, (therefore I could easily argue that I am a safer rider than you). Willing to put money where mouth is?

You're extremism envokes a natural human response to fight back which I will continue to do as I think it does more harm than good. In fact sometimes I think of you harping on when I'm riding and it makes me go faster. And I know it gives you wood to know that people think of you when riding, but not quite the same result you're hoping for eh.
Lets not take away Steves message ! Ride responsibly, each rider is responsible for their mistakes ! Ride to your limits, I DO !

I will not be responsible for those who should never be sitting apon a bike however and i fear there are many who should never go there !

[dipshit]

I don't see road bikes as 'toys'.

Same for me. I don't think of my road bike as a recreational toy like a skateboard or jet ski or motocross bike or such... but as a form of transport that needs to be taken seriously as it could take your life. More like as if owning and having light plane out in the garage.

Even though riding/flying is enjoyable.

[idb]

I also love playing with my Claymore mine collection.

[sinfull]

Same for me. I don't think of my road bike as a recreational toy like a skateboard or jet ski or motocross bike or such... but as a form of transport that needs to be taken seriously as it could take your life. More like as if owning and having light plane out in the garage.

Even though riding/flying is enjoyable. But that is where we differ (ok not just there) my bikes are just for my enjoyment, i don't commute on em (god forbid) they are just toys ! My bike/s may have caused a couple of severe burns on my person, but it/they will NEVER take my life ! My own stupidity or inattention while riding it on the other hand, MAY ! (Katmans Message ? It's been a while so i may stand corrected)

[Toaster]

Yet you still choose to ride regardless of the fact that driving a car is a safer option. Acceptable risk is not an absolute, one person can not say "this is what I choose" and expect others to do the same.

BTW - I'm almost in the same camp as you, and I don't always ride like a nana at 90kph (compared to myself but probably uber-tame compared to others), just as I go kite surfing and other "fun" risky activities even though one more knock to the head will probably = vegetable patch. I think the "message" should be risk mitigation, not risk elimination otherwise we should all hang the keys up and buy a toyota starlet.

That is what I am trying to say. It is always only mitigation, not elimination.

Because I choose to ride, there is always risk. I mitigate it as best as I can rather than let my own choices increase risk. I have a family I want to come home to, so I ride, but I ride defensively - that does not mean its always slow either. I pick my moments.

[sinfull]

I have a family .Is it just me that rides away from mine ?

[Pussy]

Is it just me that rides away from mine ?

No, it's why yours encourages you to ride so much!! :p

[Toaster]

Is it just me that rides away from mine ?

She upgraded my life insurance. Maybe I should check the brake-lines.....

[Pussy]

Awww sorry, Bill! Have a cuddle! :)

[sinfull]

She upgraded my life insurance. Maybe I should check the brake-lines..... Just seen what your riding now !!! And yepppp ! Awww lol you mean ya Mrs might..... nah surely she wouldn't be able to find brake lines on that bike hahaha, mate think about it ?? Have you ?

[sinfull]

Awww sorry, Bill! Have a cuddle! :) Awww thanks John ! Hey you know me mate and well i'm not one for this one sided non reciprocation stuff sooooo....... Have a kid ! :crybaby: No nappies required here, 23yr old, so if he shits himself it's cause i'm nearing home and he's still here !

[Pussy]

See you at Manfeild on Monday, Bill?

[buellbabe]

You still haven't figured me out at all, have you?

I'm not primarily crusading to ensure the survival of individuals, I'm crusading to protect the future of motorcycling in New Zealand (and in doing so, protecting many of the very liberties you seem so happy to espouse).


Well I get what you are saying and you are totally on the money. People need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Its a fact that there is an agenda to get motorcycles off NZ roads. And I heard that from a cop...who just happened to be riding with me on the way to welly to protest at the acc hikes.

WE are the only ones who can change things, like someone else already posted ...ride to live...live to ride...

It ain't rocket science.

[swbarnett]

Well I get what you are saying and you are totally on the money.
The trouble with Katman is that, although his message is on the money (most of the time), his delivery leaves a lot to be desired. He expects EVERY biker to listen to him like he's god himself.

The trouble with bikers is that a lot of us are rebels by nature. This means that it's totally unrealistic to expect every one of us to listen to the hard truths of life. Especially when the message is being rammed down your throat. Remember, you catch more flies with honey...

[Katman]

The trouble with Katman is that, although his message is on the money (most of the time), his delivery leaves a lot to be desired. He expects EVERY biker to listen to him like he's god himself.


Gimme a break. That argument's growing mould.

It's got nothing to do with the delivery - it's simply that the message itself galls many motorcyclists.

And even more galling to those same motorcyclists is not just the fact that they are reading the message (I'm certainly not the first to be advocating a dose of 'wake the fuck up to ourselves') but rather, the fact that I'm still here giving the same message unlike the others in the past who have either been successfully bullied into silence or simply given up trying.

[jellywrestler]

Is that you Simon Barnett, the kiddies game show host?????

[swbarnett]

Gimme a break. That argument's growing mould.
The reason that I think you are expecting EVERY biker to listen to you is that you've stated that it is within our power as motorcyclists to save motorcycling from the politicians simply by uping our game and it will take EVERY motorcyclist riding in the manner which you prescribe* to achieve that.


It's got nothing to do with the delivery - it's simply that the message itself galls many motorcyclists.
I agree that the message does gall some (the truth will often hurts). But simply telling someone they're a dickhead repeatedly will more often than not result in the dickhead just being more set in their ways.


And even more galling to those same motorcyclists is not just the fact that they are reading the message (I'm certainly not the first to be advocating a dose of 'wake the fuck up to ourselves') but rather, the fact that I'm still here giving the same message unlike the others in the past who have either been successfully bullied into silence or simply given up trying.
I applaud the fact that you're still trying. I really do. However, banging your head against a brick wall repeatedly trying to break through only results in a bloody head.


*Which I agree with by the way.

[swbarnett]

Is that you Simon Barnett, the kiddies game show host?????
Nah, not me.

[Katman]

However, banging your head against a brick wall repeatedly trying to break through only results in a bloody head.


No great loss - I've always looked this ugly.

[pritch]

It's got nothing to do with the delivery -

May I respectfully disagree? It is definitely the delivery, and on at least two occasions that come to mind, the timing thereof.

The basic message may be sound but there are a significant number of people on KB who on seeing "Katman" just switch off. Or send abuse. None of which is presumably achieving what you are after?

[Katman]

May I respectfully disagree?


You can if you like - as long as you don't mind me respectfully disagreeing with you.

The most effective timing for any message is when it has the most impact.

Many on here just use the timing excuse because they'd rather the whole thing just quietly die down till it can effectively be swept under the carpet.

[Latte]

everyone gets his message though - all of you have said "The message is sound, the delivery sucks" if he'd been limp wristed about it there's a good chance no one would remember/care what he has to say.

It's easy to read the sign, while you're taking pot shots at it.

[oneofsix]

everyone gets his message though - all of you have said "The message is sound, the delivery sucks" if he'd been limp wristed about it there's a good chance no one would remember/care what he has to say.

It's easy to read the sign, while you're taking pot shots at it.

don't agree. Message gets lost because of the reaction to the delivery. As granny used to say you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. For his message to get through people have to read and THINK about it, not just react to his delivery. Now I am being kind and assuming he has a message cause he and you say he has one and isn't just being an anti-biker grump or troll.

[Katman]

Message gets lost because of the reaction to the delivery.

The message would get lost a whole lot quicker if there was no reaction.

The reaction is merely the raw nerve that I've brought to the surface.

[Latte]

don't agree. Message gets lost because of the reaction to the delivery. As granny used to say you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. For his message to get through people have to read and THINK about it, not just react to his delivery. Now I am being kind and assuming he has a message cause he and you say he has one and isn't just being an anti-biker grump or troll.

Definitely a different view point from mine, nothing wrong with that. I guess people react differently to the same situations.

Admittedly I haven't been around here a long time, but from when I've started to now, more people are openly agreeing with Katman's message. (I believe a lot of people do agree with what he's trying to get across, but choose not to state it, just because it's him).

My opinion is he's mixing the stereotypical "American Drill Sargent" approach of creating a common enemy (himself) and "all publicity is good publicity".

His message is there, it's blatant (to me at least).

[marie_speeds]

The trouble with Katman is that, although his message is on the money (most of the time), his delivery leaves a lot to be desired. He expects EVERY biker to listen to him like he's god himself.

You mean he isn't? :facepalm:

I for one like what he has to say..... As a fairly new road rider, his message makes sense. I have spent a lot of time reading through various threads on this site, and seem to think that the disagreements stem from the fact that many of the people on this site agree with him but would rather go to the dentist for a tooth extraction without drugs than admit he is right.

[Edbear]

The message would get lost a whole lot quicker if there was no reaction.

The reaction is merely the raw nerve that I've brought to the surface.

No, it's your delivery and the attitude that comes across, rightly or wrongly.


Definitely a different view point from mine, nothing wrong with that. I guess people react differently to the same situations.

Admittedly I haven't been around here a long time, but from when I've started to now, more people are openly agreeing with Katman's message. (I believe a lot of people do agree with what he's trying to get across, but choose not to state it, just because it's him).

My opinion is he's mixing the stereotypical "American Drill Sargent" approach of creating a common enemy (himself) and "all publicity is good publicity".

His message is there, it's blatant (to me at least).

Could be, I'd be inclined to tell the Drill Sargent where to stick his attitude... :shutup:


You mean he isn't? :facepalm:

I for one like what he has to say..... As a fairly new road rider, his message makes sense. I have spent a lot of time reading through various threads on this site, and seem to think that the disagreements stem from the fact that many of the people on this site agree with him but would rather go to the dentist for a tooth extraction without drugs than admit he is right.

But you're a nice intelligent person who doesn't over-react... :innocent:

[Dogboy900]

I just wonder how many people have had an off but will not post up here about it because they can't be bothered putting up with the shit they know will follow.

If people post about an accident giving details and looking at the cause it helps us all look at what we would have done or can do in that situation.

hearing "you could have avoided it but I won't tell you how, you deserved it" helps no one in my opinion

[Katman]

If people post about an accident giving details and looking at the cause it helps us all look at what we would have done or can do in that situation.


And it would be great if that were the way it worked.

In reality though, we more often than not hear how the accident was totally unavoidable - and any suggestion that it might well have been avoided falls on deaf ears, blind eyes and loud mouths.

[MSTRS]

Sometimes an 'accident' is a fatal, and discussion of the causes etc is not allowed. Whilst I understand the reason/s for this, it is a shame, since no-one ever wants to discuss such things when they are 'old news', or a theoretical situation.
For the record, Katman has never wavered in his condemnation of idiot-riding - his only failing is that he doesn't get into discussions of good riding practices. Sadly, this causes many to ignore what he says - and some of those are no longer with us.

[Oblivion]

Sometimes an 'accident' is a fatal, and discussion of the causes etc is not allowed.

Why not? If we all discuss what caused ________ to crash, surely we could come up with a generalized safety code for motorcyclists to follow. Hell, If we push hard enough, we could revamp the pathetic rode code to include these things.

[Latte]

Sometimes an 'accident' is a fatal, and discussion of the causes etc is not allowed. Whilst I understand the reason/s for this, it is a shame, since no-one ever wants to discuss such things when they are 'old news', or a theoretical situation.
For the record, Katman has never wavered in his condemnation of idiot-riding - his only failing is that he doesn't get into discussions of good riding practices. Sadly, this causes many to ignore what he says - and some of those are no longer with us.

Yes, quite often in threads "lets wait for the facts before jumping to conclusions" a week later and the thread is gone. When the facts (coroners report, court hearing, whatever) are released it never gets the light of day. Shame really.

[MSTRS]

Why not? If we all discuss what caused ________ to crash, surely we could come up with a generalized safety code for motorcyclists to follow. Hell, If we push hard enough, we could revamp the pathetic rode code to include these things.

I agree. But a site rule was made a long time ago. No discussion on fatals UNLESS the (dead) poster has ticked the OK box in their UserCP, and UNLESS their family are happy for said discussion to take place.
Families often come into KB after losing their loved one, for all sorts of reasons, but I doubt that they want to read all the bullshit that often accompanies such threads.

[idb]

I obviously don't take it all seriously enough.
I don't generally feel the need to critically analyse anyone else's riding, or complain about the authorities or other road users' attitudes to us, nor do I feel the need to bare my motorcycling soul to this forum or anyone else.
I do it because I enjoy it and for no other reason.
That probably makes me as shallow as a birdbath but, apart from the odd bitch every now and then about some wanker that has particularly pissed me off I'm not interested in getting into activism or preaching to others.

My bikes are toys to me and I ride them for fun...there I've said it and I don't care...ahahahahaaaaaa!!!!

[Katman]

I obviously don't take it all seriously enough.
I don't generally feel the need to critically analyse anyone else's riding, or complain about the authorities or other road users' attitudes to us, nor do I feel the need to bare my motorcycling soul to this forum or anyone else.
I do it because I enjoy it and for no other reason.
That probably makes me as shallow as a birdbath but, apart from the odd bitch every now and then about some wanker that has particularly pissed me off I'm not interested in getting into activism or preaching to others.

My bikes are toys to me and I ride them for fun...there I've said it and I don't care...ahahahahaaaaaa!!!!

And that's fair enough.

It's just that some of us are getting sick and fucking tired of being penalised for the bad form of others.

[swbarnett]

It's just that some of us are getting sick and fucking tired of being penalised for the bad form of others.
And therein lies the crux of where we differ (I assume you mean that bad form of other motorcyclists).

We are not being penalised for the bad form of other motorcyclists. We are being penailsed because of the emotive, misguided, fear driven thinking of the nanny state.

This will only change when they get it through their thick skulls that they have no right to try and save me from myself. And that applies to life in general, not just motorcycling.

[Katman]

This will only change when they get it through their thick skulls that they have no right to try and save me from myself. And that applies to life in general, not just motorcycling.

Yeah right, and in the meantime the Motorcycle Accident Research & Development Team continue to extract money on our behalf while we sit back and mutely tolerate their perfomance.

[swbarnett]

Yeah right, and in the meantime the Motorcycle Accident Research & Development Team continue to extract money on our behalf while we sit back and mutely tolerate their perfomance.
To what "Motorcycle Accident Research & Development Team" do you refer? Google finds nothing when this phrase is used.

[Katman]

To what "Motorcycle Accident Research & Development Team" do you refer? Google finds nothing when this phrase is used.

I was being facetious - I made the name up.

[idb]

I was being facetious - I made the name up.

Well great...now I have to start questioning what I read on the internet?!

[Edbear]

Well great...now I have to start questioning what I read on the internet?!

"You must spread..." :bye:

[swbarnett]

I was being facetious - I made the name up.
Makes sense. That'll teach me to try and use my brain when I've been woken up at 1am for work.

I take in the "them" in "their perforance" is the poor performing motorcyclists you referred to earlier?

If you're preaching to any group there will always be some that are so pig-headed and set in their ways that no amount of preaching will get through.

To save motorcycling from TPTB we must convince them (TPTB) that this minority will find some other way to be reckless if they can't ride. We must get the message through that the tool of their distruction, the motorcycle, is not the problem. Afterall, a gun is not dangerous unless someone has their finger on the trigger.

[Katman]

If you're preaching to any group there will always be some that are so pig-headed and set in their ways that no amount of preaching will get through.


I agree entirely.

A single voice will never get through to them.

A collective voice though might have greater powers.

[tri boy]

Shut your lil bike shop, and become a preacher.
Fuck your boring.

[Katman]

Fuck your boring.

Leave my boring out of it.

[swbarnett]

A collective voice though might have greater powers.
Even with a collective voice there will always be some (although probably a smaller number) you can't reach.

[Katman]

Even with a collective voice there will always be some (although probably a smaller number) you can't reach.

Fair enough - let's reach the ones we can then.

[idb]

.......... We must get the message through that the tool of their distruction, the motorcycle, is not the problem. Afterall, a gun is not dangerous unless someone has their finger on the trigger.

Bikes don't kill people.........

[idb]

Fair enough - let's reach the ones we can then.

Don't waste your time here...I'm beyond reach, I admit it.

[Katman]

Don't waste your time here...I'm beyond reach, I admit it.

I'l leave you to the Salvation Army.

[FJRider]

I'l leave you to the Salvation Army.

They have better things to do ... :facepalm:

[idb]

They have better things to do ... :facepalm:

It's OK, I'll just curl up in the corner, suck my thumb, rock backwards and forwards and hum quietly to myself for an hour or two.
I always feel better afterwards.

[FJRider]

It's OK, I'll just curl up in the corner, suck my thumb, rock backwards and forwards and hum quietly to myself for an hour or two.
I always feel better afterwards.

Sweet ... just don't make too much noise ... ok ... :sunny:

[Conquiztador]

My opinion is he's mixing the stereotypical "American Drill Sargent" approach of creating a common enemy (himself) and "all publicity is good publicity".


Nah. He is just thinks he has the only answer. Like Jehovas.


Yeah right, and in the meantime the Motorcycle Accident Research & Development Team continue to extract money on our behalf while we sit back and mutely tolerate their perfomance.

At the end there is fuck all we can do. Might as well enjoy it before the laws cramp our style.


"You must spread..." :bye:
Did it for ya.


(I still recon this whole thread is a c/p!!!)