Wellington City Council, parking charges. MAG-NZ correspondence

[NONONO]

Our Wellington Rep talking to WCC this week.
The responses have been staggering.
StonY, as you seem to be on his mailing list, can you give him a heads up, before we give him a kick up the arse.

Reprinted below, with my final addition as of tonight.

To



Stephen Carruthers

Transport Planner
Infrastructure
Wellington City Council

DDI (04) 803 8699
Cell 021 2278699





My dear Mr Carruthers.

I refer to your email correspondence with a fellow member of MAG-NZ, reproduced below.


Anthony,

The reason these things have been looked at is due to the question, "why should motorcyclists get free all day parking when no other mode does". People argue that motorcycling should be encouraged for environmental reasons, however I have seen no evidence to back that up. If, as the research shows, motorcycling is less safe and less environmentally friendly should motorcycling be encouraged above any other mode of transport.

Kind Regards,

Stephen Carruthers

Transport Planner
Infrastructure
Wellington City Council

DDI (04) 803 8699
Cell 021 2278699
Stephen.Carruthers@wcc.govt.nz





From: Wellington MAG [mailto:wellington@mag-nz.org]
Sent: Tuesday, 22 March 2011 11:43 p.m.
To: Stephen Carruthers
Subject: Re: Wellington parking


Hi Stephen

In that case can I take it you are also investigating the accident stat’s for cyclists, cars and buses, along with investigating where the responsibility for the accident falls. Could you also for my own interest elaborate on the reasoning behind collating this information and explain the actual bearing this has on provisioning of parking spaces. As on the face of it, it seems an odd statistic to take into consideration for the purpose at hand.
Apologies if this comes across as a negative response to your question, that is not my intention, I just want to understand the process you are going through.

Kind regards
Anthony
Motorcycle Action Group of NZ Inc
www.mag-nz.org
www.cheesecutter.co.nz
www.nzrav.org



From: Stephen Carruthers
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 12:42 PM
To: 'Wellington MAG'
Subject: RE: Wellington parking

Hello Anthony,

It does not hold huge significance, but is rather is part of the background information on the mode of transport in general. I have been using information from the CAS database which comes from the police reports. Yes I have numbers of the increase in motorcycles use and that is taken into account. Cheers.

Kind Regards,

Stephen Carruthers

Transport Planner
Infrastructure
Wellington City Council

DDI (04) 803 8699
Cell 021 2278699
Stephen.Carruthers@wcc.govt.nz


From: Wellington MAG [mailto:wellington@mag-nz.org]
Sent: Monday, 21 March 2011 6:39 p.m.
To: Stephen Carruthers
Subject: Re: Wellington parking


Hi Stephen

Can you confirm two things, firstly since we are talking about the issues surrounding parking in Wellington, where is the relevance in motorcycle crash statistics and secondly what is the source for your information on such statistics and have you taken into consideration the increases in the number of registered motorcycles in Wellington.

Kind regards
Anthony
Motorcycle Action Group of NZ Inc
www.mag-nz.org
www.cheesecutter.co.nz
www.nzrav.org



From: Stephen Carruthers
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 11:52 AM
To: mailto:byron.cummins@dulux.co.nz
Cc: Paul Ellen ; brent.hutchison@dia.govt.nz ; 'Anthony Foreman' ; Jon Visser
Subject: RE: Wellington parking

Hello,

At our meeting it was agreed that the motorcycling groups would provide us with information on crash data and environmental issues as it was stated there was contrary information to what we have. If that information is available I would be interested in obtaining it so that I can incorporate into any further work that I do. Cheers.

Kind Regards,

Stephen Carruthers

Transport Planner
Infrastructure
Wellington City Council

DDI (04) 803 8699
Cell 021 2278699
Stephen.Carruthers@wcc.govt.nz


Mr Carruthers,

I would ask you to please confirm the above as a true record of your correspondence with our Wellington representative.

Could you also provide me with contact details for your direct superior/direct report at WCC.

Thank you in advance.

[NONONO]

Seems Mr Carruthers thinks it is 2009 and not 2011...
How many fkin times do we have to deal with the same shit from the same shitheads?
Sorry Brent, but really, if this is the level of awareness that the WCC have regarding these issues...that's bloody poor from the largest bikers rights organization in Wellington (currently).
We need to talk about how we work together better, and no more bullshit.

[Hitcher]

It seems to me that MAG-NZ is wasting Council time and chasing red herrings that have little relevance on the issue in question, vehicle safety being one such red herring.

The issue, as I understand it, is one of equity. People who bring cars into the city have to pay for the priviledge. It costs money to provide parking space, particularly for vehicles that spend all day in them. This is either a cost to the ratepayer or to the owner of that space, or to the owner of the vehicle, if a charge is levied.

Motorcycles may be smaller than cars, but they still require room to store. The cost per vehicle may be less than for a car, but there is still a cost. Council has to weigh the benefits of allowing unfettered motorcycle parking with the cost of that. The cost is complex as it also involves such things as congestion which has implications for the city's roading and public transport network.

MAG-NZ would be better to pursue a discussion along those lines rather than wasting time on an ultimately unwinnable "my accident stats are better than yours" debate. And that discussion would be better had with elected Councillors, rather than with Council officers, as this is ultimately a policy matter involving politicical trade-offs.

Threatening Council officers is never a good look. Anybody who does that has generally lost the argument or the point.

[NONONO]

As usual Hitcher, you manage to miss the point, deliberately I would suggest, wide of the mark.
The point of this post, glaringly obvious to all but your good self, is that WCC and it's road planning and transport division appear amazingly ignorant of the issues.
It appears that senior officials of WCC have taken little notice of the 2 year debate and are asking questions that anyone, who has taken the time to research even the briefest of information themselves, (your good self excluded) would find laughable at this point.
The WCC is arguing accident stats, not MAG-NZ. We are are pointing out that accident stats have NO bearing on this issue, you appear to think differently.
You still don't get it.
After all this time, after all this debate, I for one can not waste one more breath on such as you.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

It was my understanding that the current free parking for motorbikes concession was due to the the fact that all "pay and display" parking spaces in wellington require a ticket to be displayed on the vehicle.

As motorbikes are unable to securely display a ticket (mainly due to wind and theft), and hence are unable to uitliise pay and display spaces, the free motorbike parking spaces were given as a concession.

Not being funny here but I really think you should have re-iterated this point to the council officer in your first e-mail rather than getting caught up in the "which mode of transport is better" argument.

I doubt that WCC wishes to change back to a parking meter system, as the loss of revenue alone (when compared to pay and display) would probably be far in excess of the loss of the revenue opportunity from the motorbike parking concession.
They must have calculated this the first time around and these calculations should still hold true.

[Paul in NZ]

Yes - the costs for parking are 'complex' and yes it is expensive to provide BUT without the provision of the right resources for parking the city would become a wasteland and all retail and most ofice activity would become mostly untenable.

The council needs to provide the correct mix of parking and public transport for the city to thrive.

The question is, or at least should be - how much does free parking for motorcycles actually cost to provide vs how much economic activity do they generate?

However - the real issue will be that there is a motocycle hater or someone who has identified a soft group to target inside the wider group of private transport users and now its become 'an issue'... Yippee...

[The Baron]

On one day, every motorcycle in Wellington should park in one car park. Same price?

[pzkpfw]

On one day, every motorcycle in Wellington should park in one car park. Same price?

Which spaces? You realise the multi-bay parks are banned for bikes?

[bogan]

Not being funny here but I really think you should have re-iterated this point to the council officer in your first e-mail rather than getting caught up in the "which mode of transport is better" argument.

Good point, however putting the wellington transport planner right so he doesn't come up with other schemes to keep bikers out is a task worth doing too I think.

[Ocean1]

Yes - the costs for parking are 'complex'

They might be, if they were based on the cost of supply in a competitive market. They’re not, of course, and there’s just one variable an effective monopoly needs to quantify in order to price their product: the highest price the captive market will stand.


The question is, or at least should be - how much does free parking for motorcycles actually cost to provide vs how much economic activity do they generate?

The question might normally be “how much will the motorcycle parking market pay”, as above. However, the council answered the price question when they accepted a quote for car parking systems unsuitable for motorcycles and offered free parking as a sort of sop instead. Free. Anathema to the commercial monopoly. It was never going to survive.

So now they want their cake, (cheap parking control systems) and they want to eat it too, (charge motorcycles as much as the market will bear, same as everyone else). Like any other monopoly they’re behaving in a way that would see any normal commercial entity fail, rapidly and without hope of survival. It’s our civic duty to thwart any monopolistic gouging practices and to hold them to account for any breach of the original deal in regard to free motorcycle parking in any manner available to us, the customer.

[BMWST?]

Yes - the costs for parking are 'complex' and yes it is expensive to provide BUT without the provision of the right resources for parking the city would become a wasteland and all retail and most ofice activity would become mostly untenable.

The council needs to provide the correct mix of parking and public transport for the city to thrive.

The question is, or at least should be - how much does free parking for motorcycles actually cost to provide vs how much economic activity do they generate?

However - the real issue will be that there is a motocycle hater or someone who has identified a soft group to target inside the wider group of private transport users and now its become 'an issue'... Yippee...

this is the crux off the issue.The only arguement that has any relevance is that 1 motorcycle takes up less space in the system than one car.logic also says that the typical motorcycle will have less emmisions that the typical car.(can we produce those numbers?.)
However the council dont want cars parked on the street all day,they want those spaces for temporary parking through out the day,and that makes sense.There is absolutely no reason that motorcyclists should be free(aprt from the self imposed issue for the council).The only justification is that the council sees that free (or cheaper) parking for motorcyclists has some benefits for the city.These are the arguments we have to counter or promote.
And as a Wellington ratepayer who works out of Wellington these are the issues i expect the council to look at.
Veiled threats wont do anything for the argument.
I am not sure that the pay and display argument is the only reason.When i worked in the city years and years ago(i am talking 1980),motorcycle parking was free then too.

[Smifffy]

Which spaces? You realise the multi-bay parks are banned for bikes?

Yet the council say they are going for equity?

I agree with what Hitcher posted earlier, this argument is about equity.

[Mully]

.logic also says that the typical motorcycle will have less emmisions that the typical car.(can we produce those numbers?.)


That's a slippery slope to get involved in - my 1400 uses as much petrol as a small car to commute, plus I go for rides of a weekend which I wouldn't do in a car.

Less congestion, certainly. But I wouldn't care to claim fewer emissions. I suspect someone in WCC's headquarters has congestion as a KPI for his bonus, but that no-one has emissions on their KPIs - certainly short-term.

Perhaps Wellington's motorcycling community should all forgo motorcycles for a couple of days and decide to drive (and park) into the WCC area instead to make their point. Possibly with a sign in the window to that effect so other commuters are aware of the action.

[BMWST?]

That's a slippery slope to get involved in - my 1400 uses as much petrol as a small car to commute, plus I go for rides of a weekend which I wouldn't do in a car.

Less congestion, certainly. But I wouldn't care to claim fewer emissions. I suspect someone in WCC's headquarters has congestion as a KPI for his bonus, but that no-one has emissions on their KPIs - certainly short-term.

Perhaps Wellington's motorcycling community should all forgo motorcycles for a couple of days and decide to drive (and park) into the WCC area instead to make their point. Possibly with a sign in the window to that effect so other commuters are aware of the action.

thats my point....not every car that comes in to town is a modern cat equiped efficient car,and not every bike is a 20 yr old two stroke...Thats why i said typical.Surely the average motorcycle commuter will have less impact on the enviroment than the average car commuter.

[bogan]

logic also says that the typical motorcycle will have less emmisions that the typical car.(can we produce those numbers?.)

I'm not aware of any big studies carried out on fuel efficiency/emissions, so no. Comparing those of various bikes to cars isn't up to much as there is so much variation of engine sizes/types in each class anyway. However much less weight, and smaller frontal area make a good case for bikes using less fuel (I know mine does!)

[James Deuce]

thats my point....not every car that comes in to town is a modern cat equiped efficient car,and not every bike is a 20 yr old two stroke...Thats why i said typical.Surely the average motorcycle commuter will have less impact on the enviroment than the average car commuter.

Only from the amount of resources used to make the motorcycle, and even then when you look at some manufacturing techniques the waste byproducts are potentially less environmentally friendly than building a small, economic car.

Motorcycle emissions are more toxic than car emissions, both lightly aged motorcycles and brand new ones. There simply isn't the space to install the scrubbers cars get for their emissions control on a motorcycle. One area which is focused on heavily in emissions testing is Oxides of Nitrogen and bikes produce between 5 and 30 times as much depending on how they are operated to a car of the same cc rating. A modern 1 litre car will make a litre sportsbike look like a burning oil refinery in terms of exhaust toxicity.

If you get into the emissions fight make sure you bring all the data to the fight and be happy to concede certain points or you may find yourself clutching a broken pencil while staring down the barrel of a howitzer.

The only "fight" that can be reasonably entertained is parking congestion. Bikes are already a lot more expensive to run than a car. Add parking to the cost of running one and the council risks forcing people on bikes into cars (most bikers I know won't entertain the thought of public transport) thereby increasing the demand for car parking spaces. That may well be the ultimate outcome they are after.

[James Deuce]

I'm not aware of any big studies carried out on fuel efficiency/emissions, so no. Comparing those of various bikes to cars isn't up to much as there is so much variation of engine sizes/types in each class anyway. However much less weight, and smaller frontal area make a good case for bikes using less fuel (I know mine does!)

The frontal area argument holds no weight as a bike's cd is usually between .45 and .60, while the average small car (I've used a Hyundai i30) is .329. The less weight argument holds no weight with me personally as I've previously posted the comparative consumption and running costs between my old '05 Z750 and my '99 Ford Ka (cd of .36). The Ka beats the bike hands down, being some $2500 a year less expensive to run.

[Mully]

The only "fight" that can be reasonably entertained is parking congestion. Bikes are already a lot more expensive to run than a car. Add parking to the cost of running one and the council risks forcing people on bikes into cars (most bikers I know won't entertain the thought of public transport) thereby increasing the demand for car parking spaces. That may well be the ultimate outcome they are after.

The cynic in me wondered idly if they were trying to force people into their flash new trains (that don't work)...

Make it too hard/expensive to ride = take a car; then
Make it too congested to drive = take the train.

But a local Gummint would never be so cynical, right?

[Paul in NZ]

The cynic in me wondered idly if they were trying to force people into their flash new trains (that don't work)...

Make it too hard/expensive to ride = take a car; then
Make it too congested to drive = take the train.

But a local Gummint would never be so cynical, right?

The trains hardly come into it.

The ideal planners city would have heaps of high density housing for the workers and low density utopia for the clever and wealthy... You know, clever people like planners etc.....

Fuck them - the cunts should do their bloody job and deliver us a city we WANT that includes morons like us with thumping great motorbikes we dont need and kayaks and boats and all the other munt Kiwis want not some educated idiots MA thesis euro desire....

Dont get into arguments with them - talk to their bosses the elected ones and tell them that we the people are not bloody HAPPY and this is anti Kiwi - Kiwis bloody LIKE stupid motorbikes and we like Burt Munro and other dumb shit, tell to pull their heads outta their arses...

[bogan]

The frontal area argument holds no weight as a bike's cd is usually between .45 and .60, while the average small car (I've used a Hyundai i30) is .329. The less weight argument holds no weight with me personally as I've previously posted the comparative consumption and running costs between my old '05 Z750 and my '99 Ford Ka (cd of .36). The Ka beats the bike hands down, being some $2500 a year less expensive to run.

and air friction is proportional to Cd multiplied by area, bike area is about a quarter that of a car, so even with a higher drag co-efficient, you are still much more efficient on a bike. As I said, comparing various bikes with various cars isn't up to much because of the huge variation in both. Perhaps general opinion could be used as an indication of a broadly sampled anecdotal evidence?

[Ocean1]

flash new trains

Trains, if I might add, with, (at truely huge costs in terms of bums-on-seats revenue) dedicated bycicle storage facilities.

Wonder if the Buell will fit in there...


(that don't work)...

They work fine.

Think, dude, a politician entering a local body election and who desperately wants a public display of the sort of solid, real infrastructure he's supposedly responsible for supplying sets the delivery date with absolutely no reference to the contract schedule. What’s the likely outcome?

[Mully]

Trains, if I might add, with, (at truely huge costs in terms of bums-on-seats revenue) dedicated bycicle storage facilities.

Wasn't there something in the paper the other day that full-sized (i.e. not foldable) bicycles aren't allowed at peak time or some such? I only half read the story.....


Think, dude, a politician entering a local body election and who desperately wants a public display of the sort of solid, real infrastructure he's supposedly responsible for supplying sets the delivery date with absolutely no reference to the contract schedule. What’s the likely outcome?

Ah, I thought it was the train company setting unrealistic schedules. I stand corrected then....

TBH, I'm not 100% up to speed on the Wellington train situation apart from the rumblings I hear occassionally (should have been going on X day, but it turned to shit, etc). I seem to recall something about the power being wrong for the new ones or some such.

[Ocean1]

I seem to recall something about the power being wrong for the new ones or some such.

What, they ordered 110 volt jobbies?

The industry is hidebound by regulations a century old, but I've had a bit to do with Kiwirail's engineers, they're pretty good.

[cheshirecat]

There was a study done the UK which discovered that trains are more inefficient than cars, when you add in the cost and resources for the power they consume - I'm trying to dig it up). it would make the Welly train (I hesitate to use the word system) extremely ineffectve, especially as they seem virtually empty outside peak hours.
There is nothing stopping car drivers getting a scooter and paying for their investment within the year except for the ongoing rise in petrol, parking costs and lack of two wheeled parking space.

It's far to much for WCC to have the imagination or gumption to deal with this and act positively. And they call themselve a creative capitol!

[James Deuce]

Perhaps general opinion could be used as an indication of a broadly sampled anecdotal evidence?

It is possible that the bike's higher cd becomes an issue when you ride everywhere at 200km/hr plus. I've watched sad individuals fill up 916's every 90 kms. Still got to the destination first.

I didn't use anecdotal evidence. I collected and published my findings on KB over a 6 month period for the bike and 3 month period for the car. I also documented the wildly different consumption figures between different fuel companies.

BIke engines are not designed for economy, even the ones that supposedly are. If they were they wouldn't rev past 4,500 rpm and peak torque would be between 1500 and 2500 rpm and they'd probably be turbo-diesel.

If you really want a pissing match I'm more than happy to go and get a bunch of figures for both cars and bikes and the general conclusion will be that cars are more fuel efficient than bikes, especially considering their weight and load carrying capacity. 6.9l/100km is not a good fuel consumption figure for a 200kg bike with an 1125cc engine cruising at 100km/hr, which is what the Buell would do before I killed it. Plenty of 2 litre MPVs can do better than that

[bogan]

If you really want a pissing match I'm more than happy to go and get a bunch of figures for both cars and bikes and the general conclusion will be that cars are more fuel efficient than bikes, especially considering their weight and load carrying capacity. 6.9l/100km is not a good fuel consumption figure for a 200kg bike with an 1125cc engine cruising at 100km/hr, which is what the Buell would do before I killed it. Plenty of 2 litre MPVs can do better than that

Please do, cos I still reckon bikes are more efficient, but will change my tune if you supply enough evidence to the contrary. Make another thread for it though, no point clogging this one further.

[FJRider]

.... If, as the research shows, motorcycling is less safe and less environmentally friendly, should motorcycling be encouraged above any other mode of transport ???



As far as relevence to accident statistics goes ... that little line may explain his reasoning ... or at least an excuse for ..

[BMWST?]

ok some food for thought
http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/Documents/NZ_Vehicle_Fleet_Statistics_2010.pdf

according to this document the travel weighted average fleet member is a 2300cc 12 yr old,(this may well include motorcycles with ) an average fuel economy of 10 l per 100 k and a co2 emmisions of 230g per k
the same document implied the average motorcycle is just over 550 cc,but i couldnt find c02 emmisions date

[Hitcher]

I for one can not waste one more breath on such as you.

And people wonder why I don't join organisations like MAG. Not content with abusive bullying of Council officials, you've now started on me. Whatever happened to professionalism in the ranks of lobby groups?

If you want a scrap about this online, please let me know.

[bogan]

And people wonder why I don't join organisations like MAG. Not content with abusive bullying of Council officials, you've now started on me. Whatever happened to professionalism in the ranks of lobby groups?


So you judge groups not by what they stand for, but by their members conduct? Fuck you must have trouble come voting time :rolleyes:

[Hitcher]

So you judge groups not by what they stand for, but by their members conduct?

Yes, particularly members in leadership and representational roles. Deeds count more for me than mere words, particularly from organisations that claim to be acting in my best interests.

[apes]

The frontal area argument holds no weight as a bike's cd is usually between .45 and .60, while the average small car (I've used a Hyundai i30) is .329. The less weight argument holds no weight with me personally as I've previously posted the comparative consumption and running costs between my old '05 Z750 and my '99 Ford Ka (cd of .36). The Ka beats the bike hands down, being some $2500 a year less expensive to run.

but is the Ford Ka a comperable vehicle to the Z750, me thinks not, I would compare the Z750 to a TVR, an Aerial Atom, a Z4 or the such, this is the problem of comparing cars with bikes, don't compare a high performance bike to a low capacity commuter car, you wouldn't compare your Ka to a Mustang would you

[apes]

Yes, particularly members in leadership and representational roles. Deeds count more for me than mere words, particularly from organisations that claim to be acting in my best interests.

if you can do better then do it, if you have advice for me then provide it, but whatever you do be pro biker, that is what we are fighting for here

[apes]

The cynic in me wondered idly if they were trying to force people into their flash new trains (that don't work)...

Make it too hard/expensive to ride = take a car; then
Make it too congested to drive = take the train.

But a local Gummint would never be so cynical, right?

i would be that cynical, but as I believe in todays culture some will never give up their personal transport

[Smifffy]

So you judge groups not by what they stand for, but by their members conduct? Fuck you must have trouble come voting time :rolleyes:

I actually judge them a great deal on the conduct and public behaviour of their officials and designated spokespeople.

Much like I judge the political party for whom I would cast my vote.

I admire much of what a few of the political parties stand for, however they allow themselves to be represented by a bunch of dim-witted morons for whom there is no other suitable occupation.

[Hitcher]

if you can do better then do it, if you have advice for me then provide it, but whatever you do be pro biker, that is what we are fighting for here

You're missing the point. I thought I had provided advice in my first contribution to this thread. The OP, who I presume is a MAG-NZ officer of some sort, disagreed with that and took a shot at me in the process.

Anybody who thinks that I'm anti-biker may not know me that well.

I have a smattering of experience in dealing with policy officials in central and local government, enough to know how they operate and, in some cases, who they are. Trust me when I suggest that they are not well disposed to badgering and threats.

[Ronin]

If you can do better then do it. If you have advice for me then provide it. But whatever you do be pro biker, that is what we are fighting for here.

Fixed that right up for you.

So by your logic you will be running for Priminister then? Either that or you have no complaints. Not all of us are interested in being involved in the 'fight'. However, if someone is going to stand up and 'represent' all Bikers then they should do so in a profession manner.

[Smifffy]

As an aside, if I were to receive a formal letter with the salutation of "My dear....." I would bin it smartly without further ado, as I would presume that it originates from someone whose intent is to patronise me.

Formal letters should be addressed as "Dear *title*" if they are to be taken seriously.

That isn't my rule by the way.

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=formal+letter+salutation

There's another piece of advice for y'all.

[bogan]

I actually judge them a great deal on the conduct and public behaviour of their officials and designated spokespeople.

Much like I judge the political party for whom I would cast my vote.

I admire much of what a few of the political parties stand for, however they allow themselves to be represented by a bunch of dim-witted morons for whom there is no other suitable occupation.

yeh I know what you mean, was mostly taking the piss in an effort to stop this getting personal.

For the record MAG-NZ doesn't get in the way of our member's right to call the shots on actions they are working on, unless their actions break our rules. I reckon we may cop some flak because some disagree with our members methods or people skills etc, but it isn't a fucking popularity contest here. So to those who do get offended, just un-wad your panties and watch shit get done :D

[apes]

Fixed that right up for you.

So by your logic you will be running for Priminister then? Either that or you have no complaints. Not all of us are interested in being involved in the 'fight'. However, if someone is going to stand up and 'represent' all Bikers then they should do so in a profession manner.

no by that logic, this is not my profession, no one else stood up in the region to have everyone say what a bad job they were doing, to have no one say i don't totally agree with what you are saying but can we meet up and discuss a few things as we have some things in common.
i have no interest in the professional side of politics, but if no one else will make themselves a target to fight for what we believe in, i will step in. i will make mistakes, i listen to constructive advice.
i accept confrontation is not the best way of dealing with officialdom, but as 38 years of fighting for riders right in the UK has proved, along with other protest movements over the centuries it is often the way through the door. i am not asking anyone to break the law, i am just looking for a number of people who willingly want to be political irritants, whether it be physical action or letter writing or as we already have in place through our colleagues at BRoNZ a petition, all of these back up the formal consultations which work alongside the action. the action demonstrates how that community felt about such an issue.
as some of you have noticed i consider free parking to be a right, to this date i have never paid to park a motorbike anywhere and i intend to carry on that way, if you have other arguments you would like me to raise with the council them pm me or email wellington@mag-nz.org, we need to stand as one and stop fighting amongst ourselves otherwise we will find ourselves all considered as outlaws even the granny on her 50cc scooter

[Ronin]

.
as some of you have noticed i consider free parking to be a right,

And there you go. It is not a right. It never has been. It would be nice if the status quo were to continue but it won't.

[apes]

As an aside, if I were to receive a formal letter with the salutation of "My dear....." I would bin it smartly without further ado, as I would presume that it originates from someone whose intent is to patronise me.

Formal letters should be addressed as "Dear *title*" if they are to be taken seriously.

That isn't my rule by the way.

http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=formal+letter+salutation

There's another piece of advice for y'all.

and should be finished yours faithfully or yours sincerely, but in the realm of emails the rules are a little more relaxed as it is a half way house between written and verbal communication as the reply can sometimes be near instant

[BMWST?]

It would be nice if the status quo were to continue but it won't.

we dont know that yet

[CookMySock]

The whole idea of discussing this with the WCC is based on the idea that they are interested in what you have to say, and they are prepared to be equitable.

:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme :killingme :facepalm:

So now that we have that out of the way, I'd suggest you completely forget trying to discuss anything with them, and put your energy into figuring out how to getting out of their tickets and preventing them from "towing" your bike.

[Hitcher]

i have no interest in the professional side of politics, but if no one else will make themselves a target to fight for what we believe in, i will step in. i will make mistakes, i listen to constructive advice.

Good on you. But my earlier comments weren't about you or aimed at you.

There are some good eggs whose hearts are in the right places who volunteer a lot of time to work hard on issues that affect bikers. Good on them. It's largely thankless work.

Some are a bit naive when it comes to developing an argument and don't do themselves any favours by not noticing when somebody's boss has been cced into an email and also for not knowing that there is a difference between a superior and a direct report. They also don't do themselves or their organisation any favours when they lose their temper. Causes like this shouldn't be about personalities. They should be about articulate, reasoned and compelling argument.

[apes]

And there you go. It is not a right. It never has been. It would be nice if the status quo were to continue but it won't.

and if we treat it that way it never will be here, i don't mean to be overly aggressive on this matter, it's just the attitude that comes across is we've accepted we're going to pay for it but we don't want to lose anymore spaces.
whereas i want us to keep our free spaces, i accept getting more spaces without investigating using alternative areas for bike parking which works ok in other countries including Oz.
If we're saying motorbikes should have to pay, then under the same logic so should cyclists

[Smifffy]

and if we treat it that way it never will be here, i don't mean to be overly aggressive on this matter, it's just the attitude that comes across is we've accepted we're going to pay for it but we don't want to lose anymore spaces.
whereas i want us to keep our free spaces, i accept getting more spaces without investigating using alternative areas for bike parking which works ok in other countries including Oz.
If we're saying motorbikes should have to pay, then under the same logic so should cyclists

I wonder how long it will be before the council place meters on the park benches?

Is this really where you want to take your argument?

[Hitcher]

If we're saying motorbikes should have to pay, then under the same logic so should cyclists

And, under that logic, so should cars. "Free" in this context unfortunately does not mean free to ratepayers. Somebody has to pay to provide "free" amenities, in this case it's Wellington City Council ratepayers.

WCC provides little for the city's cyclists, apart from some designated cycleways. There are a few cycle racks around town, but not many. Bicycles are deemed to be good for people's health and more environmentally friendly than are vehicles reliant on internal combustion engines. I look forward to hearing an argument that puts motorcycles comparably into that space as I imagine also are the transport planners at WCC, who will be looking for measurable benefits to ratepayers and to the city's residents by providing more "free" parking for motorcycles.

Enforcing parking costs for motorcycles is probably the biggest point working in bikers' favour currently. They don't have a dashboard on which to place a paid parking slip. Wellington's winds are working well for bikers in that regard.

Remember my earlier point about the politics of this. Any change in Wellington will require a Council decision to pass a by-law. That's the territory of the city's elected Councillors, so it's best to beat up on them, rather than on their paid officers.

[Ocean1]

"Free" in this context unfortunately does not mean free to ratepayers.

I reckon there's a bunch more spaces unsuitable for cars that could be assigned to bikes at bugger all cost beyond a lick of paint.

As for the rest... congestion looks to be the biggest benefit for more motorcycle parks as far as the general populace is concerned. There must be, very aproximately zero spare car parks in the city of a business morning, a couple of hundred bikers taking their cars early of a designated day might demonstrate that.

[Virago]

...For the record MAG-NZ doesn't get in the way of our member's right to call the shots on actions they are working on, unless their actions break our rules. I reckon we may cop some flak because some disagree with our members methods or people skills etc, but it isn't a fucking popularity contest here. So to those who do get offended, just un-wad your panties and watch shit get done :D

A valid point - and it is natural for the self-appointed "do-ers" to feel a lttile annoyed at those they perceive to be "nay-sayers". But when proporting to be representing others, those individuals have some responsibility to at least listen to those that they claim to represent.

For what it's worth, I also think that in this instance it is completely counter-productive to threaten, antagonise and patronise the public officials they are dealing with. It will undoubtedly have the opposite effect to that intended - such bully-boy power-plays will be treated with the contempt they deserve - and I would suspect that the cause has now been damaged as a result.

I also think that it is counter-productive to transfer that abuse and antagonism onto those bikers who have genuinely and politely questioned the wisdom of such tactics.

[apes]

I wonder how long it will be before the council place meters on the park benches?

Is this really where you want to take your argument?

no the argument goes more along the lines of, specialist parking bays are provided for both cars and bikes, these bays are paid for by parking fees, hence bikes should be charged to make it a fair system. but hang on, cyclists also have specialist parking facilities, these even go as far as providing special equipment for their bikes to be locked against, as these facilities are for the purpose of other road users and for the equal treatment of all road users, the cyclists should also pay towards the maintenance of the parking facilities.

however the benches are normally provided by the parks department and as such are not their for the exclusive use of road users, in some cases it can be argued they are installed for mobility issues, so those who are less mobile on their feet can take a rest while getting around town.

getting back to the fairness of parking fees, you also need to know the answer to whether the fees just pay for the meters, as should be the case in a fair and just society or are they there to make money. if it is the former then there is a valid argument for bike parking to remain free as the cost of the road which both the car and the bike use to park on has already been paid for, in which case the parking fee is to pay for a facility that controls how long a motorist can park for which is not suitable for motorbikes. however if they are there to make money then why not just increase council rates and scrap all on street parking meters which would be a fairer scheme as all residents of greater wellington would be contributing in the same way as we all pay for the train system whether we use it or not.

[apes]

A valid point - and it is natural for the self-appointed "do-ers" to feel a lttile annoyed at those they perceive to be "nay-sayers". But when proporting to be representing others, those individuals have some responsibility to at least listen to those that they claim to represent.

For what it's worth, I also think that in this instance it is completely counter-productive to threaten, antagonise and patronise the public officials they are dealing with. It will undoubtedly have the opposite effect to that intended - such bully-boy power-plays will be treated with the contempt they deserve - and I would suspect that the cause has now been damaged as a result.

I also think that it is counter-productive to transfer that abuse and antagonism onto those bikers who have genuinely and politely questioned the wisdom of such tactics.

i think our use of words on both sides of this discussion have been inappropriate in the nature of the language used, as is often the case on forums, I have no intentions of using bully boy tactics on the council, i would just like to see a turn out by wellingtons biking fraternity, whatever you ride, to demonstrate how stongly we feel about this issue, although i am starting to get the feeling we are not singing from the same hymn sheet, i hope this is an incorrect impression

[Nasty]

And, under that logic, so should cars. "Free" in this context unfortunately does not mean free to ratepayers. Somebody has to pay to provide "free" amenities, in this case it's Wellington City Council ratepayers.

WCC provides little for the city's cyclists, apart from some designated cycleways. There are a few cycle racks around town, but not many. Bicycles are deemed to be good for people's health and more environmentally friendly than are vehicles reliant on internal combustion engines. I look forward to hearing an argument that puts motorcycles comparably into that space as I imagine also are the transport planners at WCC, who will be looking for measurable benefits to ratepayers and to the city's residents by providing more "free" parking for motorcycles.

Enforcing parking costs for motorcycles is probably the biggest point working in bikers' favour currently. They don't have a dashboard on which to place a paid parking slip. Wellington's winds are working well for bikers in that regard.

Remember my earlier point about the politics of this. Any change in Wellington will require a Council decision to pass a by-law. That's the territory of the city's elected Councillors, so it's best to beat up on them, rather than on their paid officers.

One of the interesting things is that many of the riders who use the parks are not WCC Ratepayers - but from regions outside fo that area, that are given an advantage for no cost to them or their councils at all.

[sinned]

One of the interesting things is that many of the riders who use the parks are not WCC Ratepayers - but from regions outside fo that area, that are given an advantage for no cost to them or their councils at all.

As a ratepayer I was waiting for someone to point that out. I don't like paying excessive tax or subsidizing free parking through my rates.

While I don't commute on the motorcycle I do from time to time want to find a park in Wellington CBD. I know if I take the car I will get a park and if I take the bike it will be hit and miss to find a park. Limited time parking and fees work as a means to manage car parking in the CBD.

I don't have a problem with a reasonable fee for bike parking - may keep some scooters off the road. Answer to the obvious question: NO.

[bogan]

A valid point - and it is natural for the self-appointed "do-ers" to feel a lttile annoyed at those they perceive to be "nay-sayers". But when proporting to be representing others, those individuals have some responsibility to at least listen to those that they claim to represent.

For what it's worth, I also think that in this instance it is completely counter-productive to threaten, antagonise and patronise the public officials they are dealing with. It will undoubtedly have the opposite effect to that intended - such bully-boy power-plays will be treated with the contempt they deserve - and I would suspect that the cause has now been damaged as a result.

I also think that it is counter-productive to transfer that abuse and antagonism onto those bikers who have genuinely and politely questioned the wisdom of such tactics.

I don't beleive we claim to represent anyone beyond our own membership, although this may be splitting hairs as we do try and do what is best for all bikers in NZ.

I think public officials and politicians alike need to realise we have had enough of their shit. He is obviously already anti-motorcycle biased, why shouldn't NONONO attempt to contact his superior? I do not regard this as bullying tactics, more like getting ducks in a row so any action taken isn't based on a misunderstanding (bloody common on forums and emails etc).

I agree than in-fighting is the last thing we need, chalk it up to annoyance at the 'naysayers' and move on I reckon.

[Berries]

Having also worked with central and local government, could I put up one small piece of advice. Even if you are joking, you can't post stuff like this -


pipe bombs have their use, but cause us to lose credibility with the public who lets be honest we'd rather have them on our side.

+1 on free bike parking not being a right.

[GOONR]

Having also worked with central and local government, could I put up one small piece of advice. Even if you are joking, you can't post stuff like this -


pipe bombs have their use, but cause us to lose credibility with the public who lets be honest we'd rather have them on our side.


+1 on free bike parking not being a right.

I guess you missed the post that prompted that remark...


Can't be fucked being nice any more. Pipe bombs may be in order.

[apes]

Having also worked with central and local government, could I put up one small piece of advice. Even if you are joking, you can't post stuff like this -

my mistake but when you grow up with bomb attacks in the news most days you tend to make light hearted comments.

[FJRider]

One of the interesting things is that many of the riders who use the parks are not WCC Ratepayers - but from regions outside fo that area, that are given an advantage for no cost to them or their councils at all.

And many ratepayers/residents in the area, have found/find cost free parking that is at/near their place of work. Those that haven't should look harder ... if the council persists with the user pay system re: Motorcycle parking.

[BMWST?]

no the argument goes more along the lines of, specialist parking bays are provided for both cars and bikes, these bays are paid for by parking fees, hence bikes should be charged to make it a fair system. but hang on, cyclists also have specialist parking facilities, these even go as far as providing special equipment for their bikes to be locked against, as these facilities are for the purpose of other road users and for the equal treatment of all road users, the cyclists should also pay towards the maintenance of the parking facilities.

however the benches are normally provided by the parks department and as such are not their for the exclusive use of road users, in some cases it can be argued they are installed for mobility issues, so those who are less mobile on their feet can take a rest while getting around town.

getting back to the fairness of parking fees, you also need to know the answer to whether the fees just pay for the meters, as should be the case in a fair and just society or are they there to make money. if it is the former then there is a valid argument for bike parking to remain free as the cost of the road which both the car and the bike use to park on has already been paid for, in which case the parking fee is to pay for a facility that controls how long a motorist can park for which is not suitable for motorbikes. however if they are there to make money then why not just increase council rates and scrap all on street parking meters which would be a fairer scheme as all residents of greater wellington would be contributing in the same way as we all pay for the train system whether we use it or not.

you dont pay for wellington city parking(via rates) if you dont live in wellington,but you contibute to the trains via wellington regional council.The council derives income from parking for the good of the whole city not just for the parking facilites.The money is spent on all sorts of things....low cost housing is one.

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Lot of people outside of wellington commenting on this issue which is good but some of the opinions are just plain incorrect.

Wellington residents have to apply (and pay) for residential on street parking permits (within wellington city). They do not pay for parking through their rates. Hence ratepayers are not subsidising free motorbike parking in Wellington.

[Hitcher]

Hence ratepayers are not subsidising free motorbike parking in Wellington.

Are you serious? Who then are you suggesting pays for the provision of these amenities?

[IdunBrokdItAgin]

Are you serious? Who then are you suggesting pays for the provision of these amenities?

No more than parking your bike, for free, on the road anywhere within the wellington region.

The statement is true - there is no subsidising of motorbike parking within the CBD by ratepayers.

There is however a lost revenue opportunity to the council but this arose due to their use of pay and display machines which has already been pointed out.

[apes]

Are you serious? Who then are you suggesting pays for the provision of these amenities?

according to the council, the bike parks are in areas not suitable for car spaces, and like the car spaces are an area to the side of the road, as such the tarmac was already there, the curbstones were already there, the only extras are the paint and the pole.
if as unsurprisingly has been stated the parking fees go into topping up the rates, then this is the council admitting they are not raising sufficient through the rates and the parking fees are just a stealth top up tax, in which case no small wonder the council would want to find a reason to charge bikes to park

[Eyegasm]

Apes, Is your shift key broken? Capitals wouldn't go amiss.

One question I do have is that if they do start charging for bikes to park, will that
void the by-law that is in place?

But as someone has already stated attaching the slips is almost impossible on a bike.

[sinned]

Apes, Is your shift key broken? Capitals wouldn't go amiss.

One question I do have is that if they do start charging for bikes to park, will that
void the by-law that is in place?

But as someone has already stated attaching the slips is almost impossible on a bike.
Changing a by-law shouldn't be difficult for the council

A payment machine with payment for numbered motorcycle parks is how car parking is paid for in some towns in NZ and how motorcycle parking is managed in parts of Europe. Sure the paper based system is not suitable for motorcycle parking but there are a few other options that I am sure the council is considering.


235527

Pic of pay per bay for parking in Nice.

[Pixie]

I just skimmed through this thread.
So much " Oooh mustn't upset the bureaucrats"

What a lot of fuggin' wimps - no wonder the national emblem is a white feather.

[BMWST?]

Lot of people outside of wellington commenting on this issue which is good but some of the opinions are just plain incorrect.

Wellington residents have to apply (and pay) for residential on street parking permits (within wellington city). They do not pay for parking through their rates. Hence ratepayers are not subsidising free motorbike parking in Wellington.


according to the council, the bike parks are in areas not suitable for car spaces, and like the car spaces are an area to the side of the road, as such the tarmac was already there, the curbstones were already there, the only extras are the paint and the pole.
if as unsurprisingly has been stated the parking fees go into topping up the rates, then this is the council admitting they are not raising sufficient through the rates and the parking fees are just a stealth top up tax, in which case no small wonder the council would want to find a reason to charge bikes to park

and who paid(pays) for all the amentities in the first place?(including tarmac and kerbstones)

[Ocean1]

and who paid(pays) for all the amentities in the first place?(including tarmac and kerbstones)

Again, based on my last rates demand I fucking do.

[Hailwood]

Ok having wasted a part of my life reading 5 pages of this thread, I have got the following from it (correct me if I am wrong):

This thread turned into a bitch fight because someone dared to question someone from the all powerful MAGNZ (whoever they are)

MAGNZ claim to be acting for all motorcyclists - but I am a motorcyclist and have no idea of who they are

Some people dont realise that providing parking for motorcyclists costs money to creat these spaces with tarmac, paint, poles etc and this cost comes from........WELLINGTON RATEPAYERS like me

Free parking in Wellington has not been a right as long as I can remember and I have been riding for over 30 years. Its a priviledge that the council have provided so far...nothing more nothing less.

The threat of parking a bike per car space as a protest is against the council bylaw and would likely see vehicles towed by the council.

Heres my suggestion for what its worth.... MAGNZ (NoNoNo or whoever you are)..get off your high horse and actually listen to the views of well respected people here. Dont treat the council workers with contempt when attempting to argue (as from your comments here you cant discuss) with them. They actually have no say in this..you should be dealing with the decision makers..surely this is the first step in negotiation? Deal with those that make the decisions??? Also please dont make sweeping comments such as we represent the motorcyclists of Wellington or NZ...how do you know? I bet there are many motorcyclists out there who dont even know who or what you are...just my views and suggestions anyway.....

[bogan]

Ok having wasted a part of my life reading 5 pages of this thread, I have got the following from it (correct me if I am wrong):

This thread turned into a bitch fight because someone dared to question someone from the all powerful MAGNZ (whoever they are)

MAGNZ claim to be acting for all motorcyclists - but I am a motorcyclist and have no idea of who they are

Some people dont realise that providing parking for motorcyclists costs money to creat these spaces with tarmac, paint, poles etc and this cost comes from........WELLINGTON RATEPAYERS like me

Free parking in Wellington has not been a right as long as I can remember and I have been riding for over 30 years. Its a priviledge that the council have provided so far...nothing more nothing less.

The threat of parking a bike per car space as a protest is against the council bylaw and would likely see vehicles towed by the council.

Heres my suggestion for what its worth.... MAGNZ (NoNoNo or whoever you are)..get off your high horse and actually listen to the views of well respected people here. Dont treat the council workers with contempt when attempting to argue (as from your comments here you cant discuss) with them. They actually have no say in this..you should be dealing with the decision makers..surely this is the first step in negotiation? Deal with those that make the decisions??? Also please dont make sweeping comments such as we represent the motorcyclists of Wellington or NZ...how do you know? I bet there are many motorcyclists out there who dont even know who or what you are...just my views and suggestions anyway.....

Firstly, here's our site (http://www.mag-nz.org/) and heres a bit about some recent changes for us (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/136412-The-new-MAG-NZ?p=1130026482#post1130026482) if you want to find out more about MAG-NZ

As stated earlier, we don't claim to represent all motorcyclists, but do endevour to do what is best for motorcycling in NZ by promoting action when bikers feel there is an issue encroaching on their right to ride.

It's a pretty narrow view to assume this issue boils down to purely pavement space, why would the council worker bring up accident stats and fuel emmisions/use if that were the case?

The views here are somewhat divided, unless your horse is higher an offers a better view?

[Hitcher]

I just skimmed through this thread.
So much " Oooh mustn't upset the bureaucrats"

There's no harm in bothering bureaucrats if you're mounting a sensible and reasoned argument.

[Swatty]

"The threat of parking a bike per car space as a protest is against the council bylaw and would likely see vehicles towed by the council."

I've checked the signs and pay and display machines. No mention that you can't park a bike. So if ticketed have our day in court, its an easy win.
A car driver had his tickets cancelled for parking on the Terrace all day because the sign saying you have to pay could not be read from his parked car. So if its not displayed that you can't park a motorcycle any parking ticket is not enfocreable.

[Hailwood]

"The threat of parking a bike per car space as a protest is against the council bylaw and would likely see vehicles towed by the council."

I've checked the signs and pay and display machines. No mention that you can't park a bike. So if ticketed have our day in court, its an easy win.
A car driver had his tickets cancelled for parking on the Terrace all day because the sign saying you have to pay could not be read from his parked car. So if its not displayed that you can't park a motorcycle any parking ticket is not enfocreable.

Nice try but as mentioned several times on this site (use the search function) its illegal to park motorcycles in these spaces....so good luck with that

[Mully]

Using a bike per carpark is old skool. And, possibly a good way to get your bike towed (and potentially damaged)

Wellington motorcycle commuters need to forgo the bike for the day and commute in a cage. Then park (legally) in the carparks.

Then bring to the attention of the elected councillors that this is the reason.

Honestly, I bet those people who bitch at council desk jockeys are the same type of people who bitch at gas station staff about the price of petrol.

[Pixie]

Using a bike per carpark is old skool. And, possibly a good way to get your bike towed (and potentially damaged)

Wellington motorcycle commuters need to forgo the bike for the day and commute in a cage. Then park (legally) in the carparks.

Then bring to the attention of the elected councillors that this is the reason.

Honestly, I bet those people who bitch at council desk jockeys are the same type of people who bitch at gas station staff about the price of petrol.

I would think that any council would have no right to tow a bike for paying and parking in a metered space.
what does the bylaw state? If it doesn't specifically say that bikes must not park in car spaces then they can not tow.

[Eyegasm]

IIRC the by-law does specifically say that motorcycles are not to use the pay and display parking. Will find the link...

Link found
http://www.wellington.govt.nz/plans/bylaws/traffic.html

Section 6.5
No person shall park a motorcycle in any parking meter area controlled by a multiple parking meter, other than in any part specifically set aside for motorcycles.

[Hailwood]

Firstly, here's our site (http://www.mag-nz.org/) and heres a bit about some recent changes for us (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/136412-The-new-MAG-NZ?p=1130026482#post1130026482) if you want to find out more about MAG-NZ

As stated earlier, we don't claim to represent all motorcyclists, but do endevour to do what is best for motorcycling in NZ by promoting action when bikers feel there is an issue encroaching on their right to ride.

It's a pretty narrow view to assume this issue boils down to purely pavement space, why would the council worker bring up accident stats and fuel emmisions/use if that were the case?

The views here are somewhat divided, unless your horse is higher an offers a better view?

Thanks for the links I had a look..so MAGNZ is about "getting shit done"...as I cant find anything on your site about stuff done can you please let me know what shit has been done? Apart from a walk out of the old MAG and some pithy comments on KB about no naysayers and knockers etc etc.......

[bogan]

Thanks for the links I had a look..so MAGNZ is about "getting shit done"...as I cant find anything on your site about stuff done can you please let me know what shit has been done? Apart from a walk out of the old MAG and some pithy comments on KB about no naysayers and knockers etc etc.......

Have a better look through the campaign section of the site, all the main stuff is in there. Some might say that isn't enough, others might say we are just getting started ;)

[BMWST?]

I would think that any council would have no right to tow a bike for paying and parking in a metered space.
what does the bylaw state? If it doesn't specifically say that bikes must not park in car spaces then they can not tow.

a bike is allowed to park in a single metered space,but not in a pay and display park.As a previous post says i have never seen a notice on a pay and dipay machine or sign that this is the case,and i think that would be a good defence.Are we supposed to know all council bylaws by heart?