Why are we still wasting time with this loser?

[sil3nt]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4826212/Bailey-Junior-Kurariki-in-court-drama

Hes a waste of a human life. Why is it not legal to shoot him?

[marie_speeds]

Because the PC bleeding hearts he can be saved and rehabilitated brigade won't let us.......

[Banditbandit]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4826212/Bailey-Junior-Kurariki-in-court-drama

Hes a waste of a human life. Why is it not legal to shoot him?

A 12-year-old child who went along with older peers has been dropped into the corrections system for killing another human being ...

The result is what we see today ....

Kurariki will now be a problem all his life - and will probably be in and out of jail all his life ... and I agree, he probably should be.

I ask: what role did our society play in creating this person? At 12 years old we dropped him into a situation where he was surrounded by criminals - and wonder why he is the way he is?

Could we have done any better? He was 12 years old for God's Sake!!! If he was lead by his slightly older criminal peers, why didn't we remove him from that situation and give him better examples? Instead we dropped him in with even worse criminal associates. And we expected him to change? Get real ...

(And why is he taking up your time? Only because the news media think he's important - but he's just like many many others - who you don't hear about)

[White trash]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4826212/Bailey-Junior-Kurariki-in-court-drama

Hes a waste of a human life. Why is it not legal to shoot him?

Can't you read, he's just an innocent maori mate. Can't shoot him for that.


A 12-year-old child who went along with older peers has been dropped into the corrections system for killing another human being ...

The result is what we see today ....

Kurariki will now be a problem all his life - and will probably be in and out of jail all his life ... and I agree, he probably should be.

I ask: what role did our society play in creating this person? At 12 years old we dropped him into a situation where he was surrounded by criminals - and wonder why he is the way he is?

Could we have done any better? He was 12 years old for God's Sake!!! If he was lead by his slightly older criminal peers, why didn't we remove him from that situation and give him better examples? Instead we dropped him in with even worse criminal associates. And we expected him to change? Get real ...

(And why is he taking up your time? Only because the news media think he's important - but he's just like many many others - who you don't hear about)

While I enjoy most of your posts as I find them enlightening and thought provoking, I disagree with your original points here. Society is not to blame for this 12 year old scumbags involvement, his fucking parents are. Society is not to blame for every single choice these arseholes make. The arseholes making the decisions are.

[marie_speeds]

Can't you read, he's just an innocent maori mate. Can't shoot him for that.



While I enjoy most of your posts as I find them enlightening and thought provoking, I disagree with your original points here. Society is not to blame for this 12 year old scumbags involvement, his fucking parents are. Society is not to blame for every single choice these arseholes make. The arseholes making the decisions are.

I agree about the parents bit..... I as a parent am not responsible for the behaviour of other's children only my own..... However I think you missed the point BB was trying to make and that is...

Was putting him in a custodial establishment surrounded by older boys who will teach him more tricks when he was 12 years old the right choice?

[White trash]

Was putting him in a custodial establishment surrounded by older boys who will teach him more tricks when he was 12 years old the right choice?

Perhaps "we" should have put him in a run of the mill foster home. Maybe next door to "our" families and kids? Hmmmmm, he took part in a beating a man to death, for a mere twenty odd bucks. I argue the apple was already bad by the time he made the choice to be a part of a very violent crime. I'd hazard a guess that if I said to my twelve year old daughter that we were both going to go hide in a dark alley tonight, then beat the fuck out of the pizza guy I'd rung to deliver some pizza and I'd go her halves in the twenty bucks we could get, she'd find it a repulsive concept and probably cry.

[oldrider]

This guy is old enough to know right from wrong, his (unfortunate) childhood problems clouded his thinking once but now he knows the difference! :yes:

The choices he makes now are his and his alone ... he chooses to be a piece of community crap, if he was a dog he wouldn't be a problem now! :facepalm:

[marie_speeds]

Perhaps "we" should have put him in a run of the mill foster home. Maybe next door to "our" families and kids? Hmmmmm, he took part in a beating a man to death, for a mere twenty odd bucks. I argue the apple was already bad by the time he made the choice to be a part of a very violent crime. I'd hazard a guess that if I said to my twelve year old daughter that we were both going to go hide in a dark alley tonight, then beat the fuck out of the pizza guy I'd rung to deliver some pizza and I'd go her halves in the twenty bucks we could get, she'd find it a repulsive concept and probably cry.

You are right on that score that it is his parents who are/were to blame for his behaviour. But like with so many kids who come from a bad background, if fitting into a "group" means doing nasty things then it is easy for them to make that choice just to fit in, and feel like they are wanted and feel like they belong, since he was no doubt getting none of that sort of attention and affection at home. The whole bullying scenario is not so dissimilar. Children know it is wrong to bully other children but to look good in front of their friends and fit in and be cool they will happily partake in a group bullying session. And many parents are shocked when told their child is a bully...."We never brought him up to be like that!"
My son would definitely be repulsed by the idea of doing something as violent as beating a man to death as your daughter would be. They have been brought up in a loving, respectful environment and not exposed to drugs, alcohol and violence as he was.

Was 12 years old really too old and too late to try and turn this kid's life around? Yes according to society and so he went into a facility where he learnt more tricks of how to to fit in with a group of older boys who are and perhaps were way past the point of being turned around. Just as Bailey is perhaps now....

I don't particularly like the justice system. And many of the punishments do not befit the crime. A guy beats and kills a toddler but can be out within 18 months? A man ploughs into and kills a cyclist but hey that's ok, minor slip of concentration, yet does not get a custodial sentence? When just recently a friend has just been released after 3 months for unpaid fines.....:blink:

The justice system is a joke...

[White trash]

No one is beyond being "turned around", so long as they actually want to become better people. Obviously, this peanut does not want to become a better person.

I do agree that our justice system is failing. It should be harder on ALL violent offenders. And none of this 3 strikes bullshit.

You helped kill a man, you deserve a chance to rehabilitate as you were only 12 at the time. Fair enough. You then decide it's ok to beat up your partner a few times upon your release despite telling the world you're rehabilitated and a changed man, sorry. Off you go, you can come out when you're so old and feeble that you pose no risk to the law abiding community.

Society has to do "something" with violent offenders, what would you suggest we do?

[avgas]

Was putting him in a custodial establishment surrounded by older boys who will teach him more tricks when he was 12 years old the right choice?
Should have put him in with a all the old pedo's.
Would have been a win-win situation.

[jasonu]

A 12-year-old child who went along with older peers has been dropped into the corrections system for killing another human being ...

The result is what we see today ....

Kurariki will now be a problem all his life - and will probably be in and out of jail all his life ... and I agree, he probably should be.

I ask: what role did our society play in creating this person? At 12 years old we dropped him into a situation where he was surrounded by criminals - and wonder why he is the way he is?

Could we have done any better? He was 12 years old for God's Sake!!! If he was lead by his slightly older criminal peers, why didn't we remove him from that situation and give him better examples? Instead we dropped him in with even worse criminal associates. And we expected him to change? Get real ...

(And why is he taking up your time? Only because the news media think he's important - but he's just like many many others - who you don't hear about)

What is all of this 'we' business??? I didn't have anything to do with any of this and neither did anyone else I know. Some people make their own beds don't you know.

[imdying]

I think it's something to do with the more communal outlook of the Tangata Te Whenua. But yes, does beg the question, "So where were you Banditbandit?".

[*caution*]

If it makes you feel better, I heard from someone who was an inmate at the time that when he first got transfered to paremoremo prison, he was acting like the man, the 'killer', apparently he had a lot of respect at Juvi, and he soon got put in his place, ie he got the shit beaten out of him on several occasions, kind of like going from intermediate to college but 10 times worse I would think.

[MSTRS]

Society has to do "something" with violent offenders, what would you suggest we do?

Compost, perhaps?

[Edbear]

According to "those that know about these things", you've got about 5yrs from birth to form the child's personality. So if the child experiences a warm, safe, stable and loving home, it will be well adjusted and teachable by five, if not, you've got a real battle on your hands to alter behaviour. By puberty, if nothing is done, the requirements for change become very intensive and long term.

If you're sworn at, abused, (physically and emotionally), told repeatedly you are a useless piece of trash and never loved and cuddled, which is usually the case with these people, and had nothing but bad examples from parents/family and peers, you're not going to turn out very well.

People can change, but hearing first hand the stories of those who have turned their lives around mean that a bullet is not always the best way to deal with them and although the examples I've seen are older than Kuariki, the remorse they feel at their past is as difficult to deal with as the change itself and the determination that their children will never know what it's like to experience their lives is implacable.

Yes, there are purely evil people who cannot be rehabilitated, but I would suggest they are a minority. Sadly I do agree the justice system is fraught with holes and inadequacies for a variety of reasons and we can't all help everyone.

[JimO]

while i dont feel sorry for him why do we never hear the names of the other offenders, he wasnt there on his own but the other guys are able to get on with their lives without making the news every time they fuck up, he has huge media interest on him and that must have a bearing on his behaviour

[superman]

According to "those that know about these things", you've got about 5yrs from birth to form the child's personality. So if the child experiences a warm, safe, stable and loving home, it will be well adjusted and teachable by five, if not, you've got a real battle on your hands to alter behaviour. By puberty, if nothing is done, the requirements for change become very intensive and long term.

Yes, there are purely evil people who cannot be rehabilitated, but I would suggest they are a minority. Sadly I do agree the justice system is fraught with holes and inadequacies for a variety of reasons and we can't all help everyone.

Agreed with most of the posts above. The link between becoming a criminal and a bad childhood is far too strong. Even with psychopaths, it's a mental condition. Though I think usually with psychopaths we put them in prison instead of mental institutions because they're normal people except without emotions. And that to us is exactly what we find criminals to be, no matter if they actually have faulty receptors in their brain.

How about gladiator but with criminals. Then at least you can profit off their deaths. :shutup:

[White trash]

while i dont feel sorry for him why do we never hear the names of the other offenders, he wasnt there on his own but the other guys are able to get on with their lives without making the news every time they fuck up, he has huge media interest on him and that must have a bearing on his behaviour

Do they fuck up though? That maybe why we never hear of them.

[MD]

The result is what we see today ....

I ask: what role did our society play in creating this person? At 12 years old we dropped him into a situation where he was surrounded by criminals - and wonder why he is the way he is?

Could we have done any better?
Please don't try and lay the blame on my doorstep. I've never meet the prick. Not his father, not his cuzzie, not his neighbour, not his friend, not his employer etc...

I'm sick of this lets 'blame the collective 'we' or 'society'.

If I get a speeding ticket tomorrow can I blame you and you will pay the fine?

[Dave Lobster]

Society has to do "something" with violent offenders, what would you suggest we do?

Put them in solitary confinement without food or water, until they die.



If I get a speeding ticket tomorrow can I blame you and you will pay the fine?

Only if you're 1/64th maori.

[Elysium]

A 12-year-old child who went along with older peers has been dropped into the corrections system for killing another human being ...

The result is what we see today ....

Kurariki will now be a problem all his life - and will probably be in and out of jail all his life ... and I agree, he probably should be.

I ask: what role did our society play in creating this person? At 12 years old we dropped him into a situation where he was surrounded by criminals - and wonder why he is the way he is?

Could we have done any better? He was 12 years old for God's Sake!!! If he was lead by his slightly older criminal peers, why didn't we remove him from that situation and give him better examples? Instead we dropped him in with even worse criminal associates. And we expected him to change? Get real ...

(And why is he taking up your time? Only because the news media think he's important - but he's just like many many others - who you don't hear about)
You should be asking his parents that.

[scissorhands]

Please don't try and lay the blame on my doorstep. I've never meet the prick. Not his father, not his cuzzie, not his neighbour, not his friend, not his employer etc...

I'm sick of this lets 'blame the collective 'we' or 'society'.

If I get a speeding ticket tomorrow can I blame you and you will pay the fine?

No matter how 'GOOD' society is, deranged narcissistic psychopaths will still be thrown up every now and then, its a numbers game

However, the media attention pumped this guy up and he aint gonna go down that slowly. He is already rotting in hell, and the only thing that can release him at this stage is sobriety and good company.

Why not give him a lobotomy and introduce him to some Hare Krishnas?

[Banditbandit]

Can't you read, he's just an innocent maori mate. Can't shoot him for that.

Naaa .. he may be Māori, but he's not innocent ...


While I enjoy most of your posts as I find them enlightening and thought provoking, I disagree with your original points here. Society is not to blame for this 12 year old scumbags involvement, his fucking parents are. Society is not to blame for every single choice these arseholes make. The arseholes making the decisions are.

I do not disagree with you in a specific sense. I agree that his parents are directly responsible.

Society became involved at the point he was convicted ... (I could argue that we all have some responsiblity - but I'll leave that one) .... and our response was to "lock him up". That's just got to be the worst response to a 12-year-old ... almost gaurantees he'll be a career criminal ... We did not do our best for him ...

I believe that we all have some responsibility for each other ... if you're really the libertarian that you seem to be, then you probably won't accept that position ..

Kurariki's clearly had some poor role models and a poor childhood - how about providing him better role models (instead of other criminals) .. how about addressing his likely lack of education (like that's going to be improved by locking him up) ... I refuse to accept that a 12-year-old boy is a hopeless case (unless he's a psychopath) ...

Surely we could have had a better response .. which would have meant he would not become a career criminal ... better for him, better for us all ... as we ceate fewer criminals.

He's not 12-years-old any more - and he's a career criminal ... I agree the best place for him now, in terms of the best for all of us, is in jail. It's too late for Junior Kurariki ... it's not too late for other 12-year-olds in the same place he once was.

[Banditbandit]

Perhaps "we" should have put him in a run of the mill foster home. Maybe next door to "our" families and kids? Hmmmmm, he took part in a beating a man to death, for a mere twenty odd bucks. I argue the apple was already bad by the time he made the choice to be a part of a very violent crime. I'd hazard a guess that if I said to my twelve year old daughter that we were both going to go hide in a dark alley tonight, then beat the fuck out of the pizza guy I'd rung to deliver some pizza and I'd go her halves in the twenty bucks we could get, she'd find it a repulsive concept and probably cry.

Yes. However, I don't think that a 12-year-old Junior Kurariki was capable of making the choice - as your daughter possibly is.

If you took her to the dark alley, do you think she would go along with what you were doing? She probably would - but would cry, woudd feel bad - would be torn by wanting to do what her father asked and knowing it was wrong .. I suspect that at 12-years-old doing what her father said would win out .. with devastating affects on her ...

Junior Kurariki would probably not be capable of making a choice - but would suffer some pretty devastating consquences.

In his first court appearance he looked scared and confused - in his next few (after contact with other crims in jail) he looked more confident and defiant. We should have dealt with the scared and confused 12-year-old .. now we have to deal with the confident and defiant criminal.

[White trash]

II believe that we all have some responsibility for each other ... if you're really the libertarian that you seem to be, then you probably won't accept that position ..


Egg's on your face mate, I've never even BEEN to a library.

Seriously though, you raise valid points. My question is though, there needs to be a punishment for his original crime, what should it be? What sort of message would it send if "we" gave a 12 year old murderer cuddles and a nice life with better education and opportunities? You'd have every disadvantaged kid in Otara thinking "Fuck this, I'm off to bust some caps, get me a high life yo!"

[Banditbandit]

I think it's something to do with the more communal outlook of the Tangata Te Whenua. But yes, does beg the question, "So where were you Banditbandit?".

Good question.

This is one of the reasons I work in education where I do. I get the chance to help people turn their lives around through education, self-improvement - all those wonderful warm and fuzzy words ... but it's real.

A lot of my students have come from backgrounds like Kurariki. I can tell you that many of them now have good jobs and stable lives. I can't tell you how many didn't go to jail because of how they changed their lives - I can tell you that some of my students have criminals records - and they have truned their lives around.

I can tell you how many of them stopped smoking dak during the timeof their education - conversations I overheard between peers where one talked the other out of some violent retribution for percieved grievances (where in the past both woul have just gone and done it) ...

So yes, I can, with some justification, claim to be working towards improving the lot of my people ...

What are you doing to improve our society?

[Banditbandit]

What is all of this 'we' business??? I didn't have anything to do with any of this and neither did anyone else I know. Some people make their own beds don't you know.

We have a lot to do with how our society functions ... "we" demanded longer prison terms for violent offenders ... "we" wanted Kurariki to go to jail ...

"We' think Māori are scum .. and so when one child (he was a child) commits and offence "we" demand that child is punished ...

"We" no longer support each other in a community as we once did, when I was growing up ...

[Banditbandit]

Egg's on your face mate, I've never even BEEN to a library.

Seriously though, you raise valid points. My question is though, there needs to be a punishment for his original crime, what should it be? What sort of message would it send if "we" gave a 12 year old murderer cuddles and a nice life with better education and opportunities? You'd have every disadvantaged kid in Otara thinking "Fuck this, I'm off to bust some caps, get me a high life yo!"

Hey man .. nice to see we are live on line together ...

You ask valid questions .. my immediate response is "fuck knows" ... because I agree - every kid in Otara would respond liek that .. but I don't find "fuck knows" acceptable. let me have a smoke .. and let's toss some ideas around ...

[oneofsix]

Hey man .. nice to see we are live on line together ...

You ask valid questions .. my immediate response is "fuck knows" ... because I agree - every kid in Otara would respond liek that .. but I don't find "fuck knows" acceptable. let me have a smoke .. and let's toss some ideas around ...

Butting in. When that cute little 13 year old was sent down these questions were discussed, usual non-answer. But it was decided that he was culpable enough that he couldn't be given just cuddles and had to go away. The hope of most of the nation was that as just a young offender special rehabilitation effort would be made and work. The effort was made, he didn't go straight to adult prison, but it didn't work or was undone.
Question now is ' is he savable?' from a social view point. Is he a sociopath? if so is it be nature or nurture?

[Spearfish]

Is "Corrections" an oxymoron when used to name our prison system?

or
I'm absolutely unsure about the abundant poverty and benign neglect he grew up in that could have contributed to him turning into a boring court jester and thinking he is a blameless culprit but then corrections is consistently inconsistent.

[Spearfish]

Is "Corrections" an oxymoron when used to name our prison system?

or
I'm absolutely unsure about the abundant poverty and benign neglect he grew up in that could have contributed to him turning into a boring court jester and thinking he is a blameless culprit but then corrections is consistently inconsistent at correcting.

[Banditbandit]

Agreed with most of the posts above. The link between becoming a criminal and a bad childhood is far too strong. Even with psychopaths, it's a mental condition. Though I think usually with psychopaths we put them in prison instead of mental institutions because they're normal people except without emotions. And that to us is exactly what we find criminals to be, no matter if they actually have faulty receptors in their brain.

How about gladiator but with criminals. Then at least you can profit off their deaths. :shutup:

Hmm .. while I may express "liberal" opinions about crime and justice I do support the death penalty - and I think psychopaths should get a bullet through the brain .. and I'd happily pull the trigger ...

The only way we are safe from such people is if they are DEAD ... faulty hardwiring in the brain is a reason - not an excuse ...

Kiddiefuckers? - bullet in the brain ...
Rapists? - bullet in the brain ...

Once the link has been made between rape and orgasim or kiddies and orgasim they are gone ..no cure ...

Murderers? Hmm ... depends on the circumstances ... killing kids? Bullet in the brain ... Others .. depends ...

[Banditbandit]

Please don't try and lay the blame on my doorstep. I've never meet the prick. Not his father, not his cuzzie, not his neighbour, not his friend, not his employer etc...

I'm sick of this lets 'blame the collective 'we' or 'society'.

If I get a speeding ticket tomorrow can I blame you and you will pay the fine?

You missunderstand. I'm not suggesting "blame" as you seem to think.

There are reasons why crime occurs and there are excuses ... I don't accept excuses for crime .. people are responsible for their own behaviours ...

I do look at reasons ..and these are well known ... poverty, lack of education, poor parenting (in many ways) ...

We are all responsible for our societies ... for poverty ... for poor education ... for poor parenting .. (we CAN help our neighbours become better) ... and we can, in small ways, admitedly, do somethign about those. But the small ways of each of us become the big ways of society ..

Do I have a responsibility for your speeding? Well, you opened the throttle .. so that's your responsibility .. . BUT I certainly help create the environnment in which speeding is acceptable (Hell, I speed every day ... who the fuck asked me if I'd obey the laws?). I could help create the environment in which speeding was socially unacceptable ... but I don't ... so yes, I have some responsibility - and I accept that - but you opened the throttle - you pay your fine ...

[superman]

Hmm .. while I may express "liberal" opinions about crime and justice I do support the death penalty - and I think psychopaths should get a bullet through the brain .. and I'd happily pull the trigger ...

The only way we are safe from such people is if they are DEAD ... faulty hardwiring in the brain is a reason - not an excuse ...

Kiddiefuckers? - bullet in the brain ...
Rapists? - bullet in the brain ...

Once the link has been made between rape and orgasim or kiddies and orgasim they are gone ..no cure ...

Murderers? Hmm ... depends on the circumstances ... killing kids? Bullet in the brain ... Others .. depends ...

Hmm, I just couldn't find a justification if it is a mental issue. It's not their fault they were born with a shitty brain, and it's not their fault if being brought up in a shitty way turns even a normal brain shitty. Consistency should be the key though, if killing psychopaths is ok then we should kill all people who commit crimes due to having mental problems. I agree about the kiddyfuckers/rapists etc, they at least need to be locked up for life.

Jail is really good in that we don't kill and we are safe. What I don't agree with is the rehabilitation and short sentences. If someone has the capacity or mental derangement to kill/rape then I highly doubt rehabilitation is possible.

However considering say a man killing another man for raping his wife. It's easy to see his reasoning and I would say he was morally justified. Not that he has a mental problem, would be perfectly normal to commit such acts on someone who hurts people you love in such a way. For the state to kill people however, is not as justified. Emotionless murder through justification, it somehow sounds like the thought process of a psychopath, dehumanises our society and makes me very uneasy.

Though I'm still young and bet as I see more and more crap in the years to come my view will most likely change.

[Number One]

No matter how 'GOOD' society is, deranged narcissistic psychopaths will still be thrown up every now and then, its a numbers game

However, the media attention pumped this guy up and he aint gonna go down that slowly. He is already rotting in hell, and the only thing that can release him at this stage is sobriety and good company.

Why not give him a lobotomy and introduce him to some Hare Krishnas?

Hari hari hari....best idea yet! Perhaps I could suggest this tomorrow at court?! LMAO

[shrub]

A 12-year-old child who went along with older peers has been dropped into the corrections system for killing another human being ...

The result is what we see today ....

Kurariki will now be a problem all his life - and will probably be in and out of jail all his life ... and I agree, he probably should be.

I ask: what role did our society play in creating this person? At 12 years old we dropped him into a situation where he was surrounded by criminals - and wonder why he is the way he is?

Could we have done any better? He was 12 years old for God's Sake!!! If he was lead by his slightly older criminal peers, why didn't we remove him from that situation and give him better examples? Instead we dropped him in with even worse criminal associates. And we expected him to change? Get real ...

(And why is he taking up your time? Only because the news media think he's important - but he's just like many many others - who you don't hear about)

Bloody hell, that's not a very PC opinion - don't you know that we (society) have no responsibility for how other people turn out and that it's their fault, even if they are 12 years old?

[Bald Eagle]

Bloody hell, that's not a very PC opinion - don't you know that we (society) have no responsibility for how other people turn out and that it's their fault, even if they are 12 years old?

No the current trend is they haven't got responsibility for themselves.:angry: , they've just got rights we have to protect.:sick:

[shrub]

No the current trend is they haven't got responsibility for themselves.:angry: , they've just got rights we have to protect.:sick:

Oh, I always thought that these days our social obligations were simply to complain about people who did things we didn't like and not to be part of a social system that prevents them from doing bad shit or protects their victims. Silly me.

[Banditbandit]

Hmm, I just couldn't find a justification if it is a mental issue. It's not their fault they were born with a shitty brain, and it's not their fault if being brought up in a shitty way turns even a normal brain shitty. Consistency should be the key though, if killing psychopaths is ok then we should kill all people who commit crimes due to having mental problems. I agree about the kiddyfuckers/rapists etc, they at least need to be locked up for life.

Jail is really good in that we don't kill and we are safe. What I don't agree with is the rehabilitation and short sentences. If someone has the capacity or mental derangement to kill/rape then I highly doubt rehabilitation is possible.

However considering say a man killing another man for raping his wife. It's easy to see his reasoning and I would say he was morally justified. Not that he has a mental problem, would be perfectly normal to commit such acts on someone who hurts people you love in such a way. For the state to kill people however, is not as justified. Emotionless murder through justification, it somehow sounds like the thought process of a psychopath, dehumanises our society and makes me very uneasy.

Though I'm still young and bet as I see more and more crap in the years to come my view will most likely change.

I largely agree with you. And your example of a man killing his wife's rapist is one senario I was thinking of ... unfortunately, New ZEaland has removed the "provocation" argument from the law .. and this is a case when juries would probably agree with "provocation" ..

As far as killing the mentally ill ... I sat through the trial of a man accused of brutally murdering a six-year-old boy. His lawyer argued "not guilty on the grounds of insanity" .. The jury disagreed and found him guilty .. I thought he was insane .. but he should have been shot. He's a danger to everyone else .. and is not rehabilitatable .. shoot him now. Removes the danger. I don't care what the excuse is ... he will kill again ... but not if he's dead ... I don't care that it's not their "fault" ... bullet in the brain removes the danger to all of us ..

This is not about legalised or state murder ... this is about protection ... in the same way we would fight and kill to protect our country from invaders ... I'm quite happy for you to feel uneasy .. I'll pull the trigger for you ....

Once I agreed with you - then I got older .. I won't say wiser .. but certainly my opinions changed ...

[jasonu]

Naaa .. he may be Māori, but he's not innocent ...



I do not disagree with you in a specific sense. I agree that his parents are directly responsible.

Society became involved at the point he was convicted ... (I could argue that we all have some responsiblity - but I'll leave that one) .... and our response was to "lock him up". That's just got to be the worst response to a 12-year-old ... almost gaurantees he'll be a career criminal ... We did not do our best for him ...

I believe that we all have some responsibility for each other ... if you're really the libertarian that you seem to be, then you probably won't accept that position ..

Kurariki's clearly had some poor role models and a poor childhood - how about providing him better role models (instead of other criminals) .. how about addressing his likely lack of education (like that's going to be improved by locking him up) ... I refuse to accept that a 12-year-old boy is a hopeless case (unless he's a psychopath) ...

Surely we could have had a better response .. which would have meant he would not become a career criminal ... better for him, better for us all ... as we ceate fewer criminals.

He's not 12-years-old any more - and he's a career criminal ... I agree the best place for him now, in terms of the best for all of us, is in jail. It's too late for Junior Kurariki ... it's not too late for other 12-year-olds in the same place he once was.

There is thar 'we' word again.
Here's a thought, when he was 12 why didn't you get him to live in your home with your wife and your kids and home school him and mentor him and be a role model to him and teach him right from wrong (ie it is bad to kill another person for $20 no matter what your mates say) and teach him to be a better citizen?
Also, I don't think you could ever successfully argue that we all have some responsibility for the pickle he has put himself in. (except at a green party meeting at Aunty Helens place that is...)

[oneofsix]

There is thar 'we' ord again.
Here's a thought, when he was 12 why didn't you get him to live in your home with your wife and your kids and home school him and mentor him and be a role model to him and teach him right from wrong (ie it is bad to kill another person for $20 no matter what your mates say) and teach him to be a better citizen.
Also, I don't think you could ever successfully argue that we all have some responsibility for the ickle he has put himself in. (except at a green party meeting at Aunty Helens place that is...)

Here's a thought then. At age 13 society said, via the legal system, we are pissed off you killed that guy so we are sending you to time out (prison). We agreed to educate the little fucker and try to rehabilitate him, NB this doesn't mean wiping his nose for him. Like when he was 12 he decided not to co-operate, he has demonstrated this multiple times. Guess that means more timeout then.

[Banditbandit]

Bloody hell, that's not a very PC opinion

Yeah .. that will probably shock a lot of people here who possibly think I'm the ultimate in PC - as well as my opinion on the death penalty.

[Banditbandit]

There is thar 'we' word again.
Here's a thought, when he was 12 why didn't you get him to live in your home with your wife and your kids and home school him and mentor him and be a role model to him and teach him right from wrong (ie it is bad to kill another person for $20 no matter what your mates say) and teach him to be a better citizen?
Also, I don't think you could ever successfully argue that we all have some responsibility for the pickle he has put himself in. (except at a green party meeting at Aunty Helens place that is...)

New Zealand's theories of Justice are based on we" . It's based on the concept that once a person has offended, they have offended against society "Us". Society "Us" "we" take over the trial and punishment ... This is why there is an outcry because victims are left out. I agree, yes, they are. But we can't tinker with the system. We have to change it's fundamental assumptions - which leave out the victim. So the4 use of "we" is completely in line with the current theory of justice which locks up people like Junior Kurariki.

I happen to like the Sharia law approach. (Yeah - I know, now someone's going to scheme abiut Islamization). If a person is convicted of murder, the victim's family can ask for the death penalty. If they ask for the death penalty, the court can ask the family to carry out the sentence. If the family refuse the courts can disregard the family's wishes and impose a prison sentence. But that's direct justice for the family and takes the remaining victims's wishes into account. And then they get to take their own, very direct, justice.

Aas far as adopting JK? Don't think the thought of that type of action has not crossed my mind ...

I'd be pretty bad at it ... I have no kids .. never wanted any - can't stand the little ankle biters ... But I'd be a pretty bad example ... I was onced asked to take that kind of role .. my response was that I smoke too much and when I was needed I may well be too stoned ... so I would not provide the likes of Junior Kurariki with good role models ... and I'm too rebellious and defiant. I just fly under the radar ...

I'm not suggesting we are responsible for the pickle he put himself in ... My arguments are not at an individual level - and if you read the rest of my posts you'll see I support the death penalty (Definitely not in Auntie Helen's camp) .. and I think criminals need to be locked up ... but at a societal level. You are right. If you reduce my arguments to an individual level, they fail.

I'm arguing that the social climate of our entire society is partly (note PARTLY not entirely) responsible for producing people like Junior Kurariki. And we are all responsible for the social climate ...

[shrub]

Yeah .. that will probably shock a lot of people here who possibly think I'm the ultimate in PC - as well as my opinion on the death penalty.

i have often wondered what the hell PC actually means, and from asking around I gather in the days of Helen Clark's nominally left leaning government it meant "anything that the left leaning majority believe that I disagree with". Now we have a nominally right leaning government PC must logically mean anything that right wing majority think that I disagree with.

However I think a better meaning that won't change depending on who is in the majority should be "anything I disagree with". I'm quite happy to use that meaning.

As for the death penalty my very un-PC opinion is that if you look at all the evidence from every place where the death penalty is used it does absolutely nothing to prevent crime and is actually extremely expensive - the numbers vary, but generally most studies from the US find that it usually costs more than life without parole. It's also really hard to undoe when you get it wrong, and that happens all too often. On the plus side it makes some people really happy and makes good news.

On balance I think it is a mechanism that has few benefits and many drawbacks and is probably not worth the effort, but having said that I believe some people are better completely removed from society forever - Graham Burton is a good example, and for them the benefits outweight the costs.

But who decides who should live and who should die?

[Banditbandit]

i have often wondered what the hell PC actually means, and from asking around I gather in the days of Helen Clark's nominally left leaning government it meant "anything that the left leaning majority believe that I disagree with". Now we have a nominally right leaning government PC must logically mean anything that right wing majority think that I disagree with.

However I think a better meaning that won't change depending on who is in the majority should be "anything I disagree with". I'm quite happy to use that meaning.

As for the death penalty my very un-PC opinion is that if you look at all the evidence from every place where the death penalty is used it does absolutely nothing to prevent crime and is actually extremely expensive - the numbers vary, but generally most studies from the US find that it usually costs more than life without parole. It's also really hard to undoe when you get it wrong, and that happens all too often. On the plus side it makes some people really happy and makes good news.

On balance I think it is a mechanism that has few benefits and many drawbacks and is probably not worth the effort, but having said that I believe some people are better completely removed from society forever - Graham Burton is a good example, and for them the benefits outweight the costs.

But who decides who should live and who should die?

Basically, I agree. The benefit of the death penalty is that it removes any future problems .. i.e. they can't kill again.

Who decides? I'm happy to do that. I will take full responsiblity for my actions - including removing someone else from this life ... as long as the consequences to not involve me going to jail ...

[shrub]

Basically, I agree. The benefit of the death penalty is that it removes any future problems .. i.e. they can't kill again.

Here's an interesting ethical problem - how do you know someone will kill again?

And shouldn't we make prevention a priority, so why not find people who are statistically most likely to commit a certain crime and remove their ability to offend before they offend? I have a friend who knows a lot about the subject (he's a psychologist working for corrections) and says that there are some people that at about age 9 or 10 he can predict with chilling accuracy their future criminal behaviour.

So imagine a scenario where we collect those people and either euthanise them, castrate them, isolate them, retrain etc. Interesting concept, hey?

[Dave Lobster]

As for the death penalty my very un-PC opinion is that if you look at all the evidence from every place where the death penalty is used it does absolutely nothing to prevent crime and is actually extremely expensive - the numbers vary, but generally most studies from the US find that it usually costs more than life without parole.


It needn't though.



But who decides who should live and who should die?
A jury of twelve people that do not have an imaginary friend.


Alternatively, the public. Anyone that decides to put on any form of gang patch, or is a member of a 'gang' organisation (for which the sole purpose of existence is to commit crime - and I include the church in that description) has made that decision to be on the 'hit' list.

[shrub]

It needn't though.


A jury of twelve people that do not have an imaginary friend.


Alternatively, the public. Anyone that decides to put on any form of gang patch, or is a member of a 'gang' organisation (for which the sole purpose of existence is to commit crime - and I include the church in that description) has made that decision to be on the 'hit' list.

Interesting - would that include HOG members who are planning to speed or drink and ride? And what exactly is a gang patch?

And have you ever been on a jury?

[Number One]

The only way we are safe from such people is if they are DEAD ... faulty hardwiring in the brain is a reason - not an excuse ...

Kiddiefuckers? - bullet in the brain ...
Rapists? - bullet in the brain ...

Once the link has been made between rape and orgasim or kiddies and orgasim they are gone ..no cure ...



Some soberingly true shit there.

How do seemingly well adjusted, loved and liked people get to that point where they make 'that' link? Have we figured out a way to see them getting there before they 'make it'.

How do you catch that rationalisation process mid stream and BREAK it...

Bullets only prevent 'further' harm...that is not without it's merit and I support however, from where I'm sitting that feels a little too much like ambulance and bottom of the cliff stuff.

No Bailey what's his name crunchie bar in my life...so how does an idol fall this far from grace?

Anyone know the answers please share for everyone's benefit :yes:

[Indiana_Jones]

Shoot the worthless cunt muscle and be done with it.

Edit: I lie, Bring back Pierrepoint for a good old hanging

-Indy

[Dave Lobster]

And have you ever been on a jury?

Goodness me, no. I've got a brain. And something to do in the daytime.
(I'm also not allowed to do jury service)

[shrub]

Goodness me, no. I've got a brain.

I'm sure you have, and it was an excellent idea to tell us and end all confusion. So when does your sentence finish?


(I'm also not allowed to do jury service)

Looking at the Department of Justice website, that means:

you have a physical disability
your health, family commitments, or other personal circumstances do not allow you to attend
.

Or:

You cannot serve on a jury if any of the following circumstances apply to you:
• some people with certain occupations cannot serve on a jury, e.g. employees of department of Corrections
• people with intellectual disabilities cannot serve on a jury
• people who:
- have been sentenced to imprisonment for life or for a term of three years or more, or to preventive detention - have been sentenced to imprisonment for a term of
three months or more, in the last five years.

So which applies to you? Are you a prison warden, sick, intellectually disabled, in prison or recently released?

[Smifffy]

Are there residency/citizenship requirements?

[Indiana_Jones]

Are there residency/citizenship requirements?

I think you have to be a PR. I'm not a citizen and I've been called up.

-Indy

[Laava]

I know a young guy who is heading down the road to prisondom at the moment in an ever decreasing spiral. The problem is caused directly by drugs and alcohol. In spite of having an upbringing that was not ideal, it is directly the drugs and alcohol that is responsible.

[oldrider]

I know a young guy who is heading down the road to prisondom at the moment in an ever decreasing spiral. The problem is caused directly by drugs and alcohol. In spite of having an upbringing that was not ideal, it is directly the drugs and alcohol that is responsible.

"True" but it is "he who is responsible" for taking the drugs and alcohol.

It is his decision to take them and his alone!

No use blaming everyone and everything else! :sick:

Hello real world! :yes:

[Smifffy]

"True" but it is "he who is responsible" for taking the drugs and alcohol.

It is his decision to take them and his alone!

No use blaming everyone and everything else! :sick:

Hello real world! :yes:


What real world? Where?

[Laava]

"True" but it is "he who is responsible" for taking the drugs and alcohol.

It is his decision to take them and his alone!

No use blaming everyone and everything else! :sick:

Hello real world! :yes:

Oh yeah that is my point, had he no access to drugs and alcohol things would be very different. And I bet the same could be said for BJK in spite of his appalling updragging

[Dave Lobster]

Oh yeah that is my point, had he no access to drugs and alcohol things would be very different. And I bet the same could be said for BJK in spite of his appalling updragging

Removing people's access to something for their own good is what communism is all about, isn't it?

Everyone has access to drugs or alcohol. Not everyone blames them for atrocious behaviour.

[Laava]

Removing people's access to something for their own good is what communism is all about, isn't it?

Everyone has access to drugs or alcohol. Not everyone blames them for atrocious behaviour.

I agree. It seems we as a society are powerless to control this situation

[Banditbandit]

Removing people's access to something for their own good is what communism is all about, isn't it?

Everyone has access to drugs or alcohol. Not everyone blames them for atrocious behaviour.

Oh? So making dak, acid, smack, snow all illegal is communism?

[oneofsix]

Removing people's access to something for their own good is what communism is all about, isn't it?

Everyone has access to drugs or alcohol. Not everyone blames them for atrocious behaviour.

Fascism isn't it. Communism is removal of choice by forced sharing. Fascism is control freakism.

[Banditbandit]

Here's an interesting ethical problem - how do you know someone will kill again?

You don't. You take out the very high risk ones - such as psychopaths.


And shouldn't we make prevention a priority,

Of course we should make prevention a higher priority.


so why not find people who are statistically most likely to commit a certain crime and remove their ability to offend before they offend? I have a friend who knows a lot about the subject (he's a psychologist working for corrections) and says that there are some people that at about age 9 or 10 he can predict with chilling accuracy their future criminal behaviour.

Not remove their ability to offend. Deal with the reasons they behave the way they do ONLY if that doesn't work can we punish them or shoot them. Violent psychopaths are a whole different ball game tho'.


So imagine a scenario where we collect those people and either euthanise them, castrate them, isolate them, retrain etc. Interesting concept, hey?

Not a senario I would advocate.

[Swoop]

So which applies to you? Are you a prison warden, sick, intellectually disabled, in prison or recently released?
You have neglected "have recently served on a jury". I believe it's within three years.





I am happily serving out the rest of my three-year sabbatical...

[oneofsix]

Not remove their ability to offend. Deal with the reasons they behave the way they do ONLY if that doesn't work can we punish them or shoot them. Violent psychopaths are a whole different ball game tho'.


+1 although I suspect we might disagree on the reasons they behave the way they do. We would probably agree it has something to do with inequality in society but some of that can come down to personal choice as well.

[Banditbandit]

+1 although I suspect we might disagree on the reasons they behave the way they do. We would probably agree it has something to do with inequality in society but some of that can come down to personal choice as well.

No, I think we would agree. Social inequity is only one reason. Poor parenting (which is possibly be linked to social inequity) would be a biggie. Hereditary conditions favouring addiction (long-term family abuse of drugs and alcohol over several generations would show this) could be another reason; lack of education adn therefore poor cognative process, ....

I'm not denying personal choice ... but sometimes people do not recognise they have the ability to make a choice - or their thinking is so messy that they are incapable of making a choice ...

[shrub]

No, I think we would agree. Social inequity is only one reason. Poor parenting (which is possibly be linked to social inequity) would be a biggie. Hereditary conditions favouring addiction (long-term family abuse of drugs and alcohol over several generations would show this) could be another reason; lack of education adn therefore poor cognative process, ....

I'm not denying personal choice ... but sometimes people do not recognise they have the ability to make a choice - or their thinking is so messy that they are incapable of making a choice ...

That's -pretty much bang on the money. Some years ago I had a client that was a social services agency working with prisoners, and I learned a lot in that time. I used to think it was simply people who were too lazy to get off their arses and get a job like me, or that they lacked the willpower to keep drink and drugs under control like I can and that they were just plain dishonest and/or violent - again a matter of choice. I used to think that because I could see something I wanted and walk away, save money and buy it; others could, so there was no excuse. I used to think that because I could have a few cold ones and call it quits before I started smacking people around there was no reason everyone shouldn't - hell, I'm nothing flash.

But when I looked at the clients of my client I was staggered. A huge percentage of them had varying forms of mental illness, mostly undiagnosed and almost entirely untreated. And that means they are unable to process information, make plans and act the way you and I can in the same way I can't walk more than a couple of hundred metres because I have severe osteo arthritis in one hip. Unlike them my hip will be replaced with a new titanium one someday soon, and I may even one day compete in triathlons again, albeit very slowly whereas they will continue to be unable to function in a complex and demanding society.

I also looked at how they were brought up compared to the way I was. My parents taught me early that if you wanted something you rolled up your sleeves, worked and got what you want, that the best way to have money was to save it and that other people's property belonged to them and you had no right to it. My father was decorated for bravery in WW2 (MM) and taught me that aggression towards people weaker than you is cowardice and towards people stronger than you is stupidity. I was taught that education was important and that having skills gave you an advantage.

When I compared that to the way my client's clients were parenting their children, and what I knew of how they were brought up, and it explained a lot. I remember when I was in my 20s living in a flat across the road from a woman with several kids. The Black Power were regularly at her house partying and it looked like something from Once Were Warriors. There was this little boy of about 4 who lived there called Puki, and every day when I got home he was sitting on our fence waiting. He'd put his arms out, nose streaming snot, for a cuddle. We'd take him in, make him a sandwich and a glass of Quik and he'd prattle away, then we'd send him home. He was a really sweet little kid and no different to any 4 year old, but where is he now? He'd be in his 30s now, and I'd lay money he's either inside or heading back sometime soon. He's almost certainly got an alcohol and drug problem probably violent and unlikely to have an education and a job.

Is that his fault? Sure, he is ultimately responsible for every decision he has ever made, but the choises that were almost impossible not to make for you, like working, buying houses etc, and I would have been so outside of anything he was familiar with that for him to have made them would be like you or I choosing to rob a bank or beat up our partner. So for him to stay crime free would have been incredibly hard, and that was because of where he had been raised and the life lessons he had been taught ever since he was a baby, not because he was innately bad. He wasn't bad as a 4 year old.

Long post and I doubt anyone reads it, but I guess what I'm saying is the answer is not easy and requires more thought than "lock em up and throw away the key". Tougher sentences is like scratching an itch - it feels good at the time, but the itch just gets worse.

[Number One]

the answer is not easy and requires more thought than "lock em up and throw away the key". Tougher sentences is like scratching an itch - it feels good at the time, but the itch just gets worse.

Couldn't have said that better. In my own personal experience the sentence on the surface seems like it's a 'decent' length...I was shocked today to learn that because it isn't longer and the offending isn't 'worse' the offender is only locked up for 2+ years AND there is absolutely NO 'therapy/rehab/whatever' while he is away.

How the fuck does this prepare him effectively to come out of jail and not repeat the things that put him there? Seriously he is sick (among other choicse words I could use)and needs some kind of support to at least TRY to prevent recidivism when he gets out again...sure if he gets done again he'll get longer and get that 'attention' then BUT I don't believe that's good enough. PISSES ME OFF...this is why a bullet seems the most humane and preventative answer...

[bsasuper]

MMMMM, have you ever watched ClockWork Orange?

anyway, the spca get upset when you shoot dogs.

[scumdog]

Was putting him in a custodial establishment surrounded by older boys who will teach him more tricks when he was 12 years old the right choice?

Yeah, it gave his criminal learning curve a right boost, better than if he'd just stuck to the loser mates he already had...he wouldn't have got into any more trouble eh...:shutup:

I bet he'd already sucked a shit-load of tax-payers money with various agencies trying to get him to go straight before he got involved in the killing.

[JimO]

I bet he'd already sucked a shit-load of tax-payers money with various agencies trying to get him to go straight before he got involved in the killing.

you can guarantee that, his mother should have been shot before he was born