Cheeecutter saves motorcyclist's life - 2 April 2011

[Tony W]

Saw it on the TV last night.
Thank goodness for WRBs.
The score is now 1-1.

[chasio]

Any chance of a link to the online version of that story?

Or what time and channel was it? Ta.

[sil3nt]

Yeah thanks for the very informative post :rolleyes:

[Virago]

Do you have any actual information, or do we just take your word for it?

[steve_t]

Was it this?
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/alcohol-thought-factor-in-motorcycle-crash-4096816

It doesn't say it saved his life but instead says the barrier left the rider seriously injured. I guess the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. It just wasn't stated in the article

[Katman]

Was it this?
http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/alcohol-thought-factor-in-motorcycle-crash-4096816

It doesn't say it saved his life but instead says the barrier left the rider seriously injured. I guess the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive. It just wasn't stated in the article

Unfortunately, regardless of the functioning of the WRB, the article still paints us in a bad light.

[Mekk]

Unfortunately, regardless of the functioning of the WRB, the article still paints us in a bad light.

For what little that article actually says, the main poke seems to be the alcohol involved, not that he was a motorcyclist.

[Tony W]

Do you have any actual information, or do we just take your word for it?

Na, just spotted it on Teletext. As a ''pro cheese-cuttist," I take a positive inference, that if the WRB weren't there, the chap would have been thrown into the oncoming lane, and run over by a "cager." (which no doubt, most of US are, 90% the time.)

[Katman]

For what little that article actually says, the main poke seems to be the alcohol involved, not that he was a motorcyclist.

In the space of a heading and four sentences they mentioned 'motorcycle' 3 times and 'rider' twice.

I think the public can add simple sums.

[MSTRS]

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/9123135/motorcyclist-stable-in-hospital/

[bogan]

Na, just spotted it on Teletext. As a ''pro cheese-cuttist," I take a positive inference, that if the WRB weren't there, the chap would have been thrown into the oncoming lane, and run over by a "cager." (which no doubt, most of US are, 90% the time.)

have to state the obvious, but if the WRB wasn't there, what would he have hit to make him fall off?

[Tony W]

have to state the obvious, but if the WRB wasn't there, what would he have hit to make him fall off?

Nothing, except hitting and getting run over by oncoming vehicles.

[bogan]

Nothing, except hitting and getting run over by oncoming vehicles.

and was that a certainty in this case?

[MSTRS]

have to state the obvious, but if the WRB wasn't there, what would he have hit to make him fall off?

Who knows. It's a motorway - like any road, there's plenty of things to hit or be hit by, if a rider is very determined. Or pissed.
Of course, the articles all say 'that alcohol was a factor'. We are left to assume it was the rider who was pissed. It is just possible that the rider was sober and doing his best to avoid a pissed car driver, eh? "alcohol a factor' fits that scenario, too.

[scumdog]

and was that a certainty in this case?

C'mon with the trolling already.

The frikkin WRB (or whatever you prefer to call it) didn't exactly leap out and attack the dude, did it??:blink:

So how did he end up wrapped around it?

[Virago]

Nothing, except hitting and getting run over by oncoming vehicles.

Mindless speculation. It is equally possible that if the median barrier had been armco or concrete, he may have bounced off, with only minor injuries.

Your claim that the WRB "saved his life" is at best tenuous.

If you're going to jump to conclusions, get a bigger run-up...

[Mekk]

In the space of a heading and four sentences they mentioned 'motorcycle' 3 times and 'rider' twice.

I think the public can add simple sums.

Only exacerbated by the length of the article. I think you're being a little paranoid.

[Katman]

I think you're being a little paranoid.

I think the guy just behind me read the article.

[Tony W]

and was that a certainty in this case?


....err....pass.

[bogan]

C'mon with the trolling already.

The frikkin WRB (or whatever you prefer to call it) didn't exactly leap out and attack the dude, did it??:blink:

So how did he end up wrapped around it?

Obviously he fucked up and rode into it, but the only fact is, he hit a safety device and got injured. It's pure speculation to say he would have been fucked, or fine, if the device hadn't been there. And as Virago said, if they used concrete, he would likely have been better off.

[scumdog]

Mindless speculation. It is equally possible that if the median barrier had been armco or concrete, he may have bounced off, with only minor injuries.
..


Or equally into the path of any possible following vehicle...just saying...:shifty::msn-wink:

[Tony W]

Mindless speculation. It is equally possible that if the median barrier had been armco or concrete, he may have bounced off, with only minor injuries.

Your claim that the WRB "saved his life" is at best tenuous.

If you're going to jump to conclusions, get a bigger run-up...

This is KB fgs !! :yes:
....of course I'm jumping to conclusions which fit my agenda.
I want this to be small on facts, BIG on emotion. (something the safety Nazis LOVE)

[Mekk]

I think the guy just behind me read the article.

He knows bro...he knows...

--

So the cheesecutter only grated. Is the issue here that this undermines the much hyped call that these things would always slice and dice? Would the campaigners have been happier with a decapitation?

[Tony W]

So, dear readers...are we all agreed then, that wire rope barriers are our friends !

[Kickaha]

So, dear readers...are we all agreed then, that wire rope barriers are our friends !

Fuck yes, hope to see some up down here soon:niceone:

[Mekk]

So, dear readers...are we all agreed then, that wire rope barriers are our friends !

hey man it's only 1-1, wouldn't be cheering yet. this aint' the all whites...

[bogan]

So the cheesecutter only grated. Is the issue here that this undermines the much hyped call that these things would always slice and dice? Would the campaigners have been happier with a decapitation?

From the limited info in the story, he could have hit it round a right hander, or at very low speed.
The whole point of the campaign is to avoid severed limbs, so you should be able to figure out the answer there.

I do find it strange that people are so defensive about them, when there are clearly better options out there, or is it that the pro-WRB bikers see the WRBs as the best solution? Or just trolling?

[Katman]

I do find it strange that people are so defensive about them, when there are clearly better options out there, or is it that the pro-WRB bikers see the WRBs as the best solution? Or just trolling?

I find it strange that so many people fail to see the bigger picture here.

[Madness]

:facepalm:

It was probably a Harley. You're asking for death riding one of those!

/Pisstake

[Mekk]

Or just trolling?

well, regardless, it's important to have debate. blindly following a campaign without asking questions and challenging conventionally accepted ideas is bad for any process.

[Tony W]

MURPHY'S LAW

....I just KNOW I'm going to get 'taken out' by a WRB one day.....that's the irony. :yes:

[Mom]

C'mon with the trolling already.

The frikkin WRB (or whatever you prefer to call it) didn't exactly leap out and attack the dude, did it??:blink:

So how did he end up wrapped around it?

Having driven past the accident just after it happened and having ridden over the same bit of road since, there appears to be about 800 metres of kittly litter in patches prior to the scene, inducating that there may have been something slippery dropped on the road before the accident. When I saw on Friday he had hit the WRB I felt sick to the stomach. The bike went back across the lanes and ended up a twisted wreck on the shoulder.

I dont condone drinking and driving, but I am certainly not about to condemn this fella without knowing all the details. I have said this clumsily. If there was shit spilled on the road that created the problem in the first place, that needs to be acknowledged and reported as well.. I have no doubt the Plice will investigate this and we will find out what the nitty gritty was if we eally want to. I hope the poor bastard that tangled with the wire makes a full recovery.

[bogan]

well, regardless, it's important to have debate. blindly following a campaign without asking questions and challenging conventionally accepted ideas is bad for any process.

:niceone: Definetely, there has been a signifciant amount of research done over in the EU, and some in Aus too I think (I would offer to find it but our internet has the go-slows). They explain the benefits/failing of WRBs as well as concrete, and also covered WRBs, and also do a cost analysis. I read them and think, why are WRBs still used (and installed incorrectly)? it just doesn't make any sense to me.

[Mom]

MURPHY'S LAW

....I just KNOW I'm going to get 'taken out' by a WRB one day.....that's the irony. :yes:

Dont joke mate, up this way that could in fact be a reality. They have been installed in the most crazy places and in some instances, completely without thought to safety for us two wheeled riders. You have no real idea until you start riding some of our roads to experience "wind shear" as you are travelling at legal speeds and are driven a metre across the road right next to the friggen WRB is an experience I dont wish on anyone.

There is a bit of road just north of here, I have travelled it 3 times this weekend. It is one of the top 10 accident black spots in NZ. They have installed WRB on the outsides of the road in both directions, when in fact most fatalities in there invlove 2 vehicles head on. If I am riding in there and I am faced with an oncoming vehicle in my lane I have 2 options. Head on with said vehicle or into the WRB. Great choices eh?

[Tony W]

I find it strange that so many people fail to see the bigger picture here.

Can you please explain to this naive small-town boy, what the bigger picture is.

[zeocen]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say self-preservation through awareness, reducing the risk before it even happens.

[Tony W]

Dont joke mate, up this way that could in fact be a reality. They have been installed in the most crazy places and in some instances, completely without thought to safety for us two wheeled riders. You have no real idea until you start riding some of our roads to experience "wind shear" as you are travelling at legal speeds and are driven a metre across the road right next to the friggen WRB is an experience I dont wish on anyone.

There is a bit of road just north of here, I have travelled it 3 times this weekend. It is one of the top 10 accident black spots in NZ. They have installed WRB on the outsides of the road in both directions, when in fact most fatalities in there invlove 2 vehicles head on. If I am riding in there and I am faced with an oncoming vehicle in my lane I have 2 options. Head on with said vehicle or into the WRB. Great choices eh?

Motorcycling is optional.
It is a hobby, an indulgence.
We are all (99.9%) car/vehicle drivers.
We are a pimple, a minority, a thorn in roading society.
Special conditions for a motley few, are a self-centred fantasy.
Motorcycling is NOT the real world.
Let's get real.

[Tony W]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say self-preservation through awareness, reducing the risk before it even happens.

WTF are you doing on this thread, spouting common sense, man ??????

BUGGER OFF !!!!

[Katman]

Can you please explain to this naive small-town boy, what the bigger picture is.

Picure this........

The government are moving against us, the media appear to be on their side and the public are being gently wooed.

Any clearer?

[Mom]

Motorcycling is optional.
It is a hobby, an indulgence.
We are all (99.9%) car/vehicle drivers.
We are a pimple, a minority, a thorn in roading society.
Special conditions for a mottley few, are a self-centred fantasy.
Motorcycling is NOT the real world.
Let's get real.

That might be true for you, but dont try to fit others in your slot. I have been a dedicated car commuter and bike enthusiast as a hobby for a long time for sure, but I am about to become a first form of transport motorcyclist once again. I expect, nay DEMAND my roads are safe for me to ride. I have gone back to my 2 wheeled, first call of wheels, to save a bit of money and make my commute affordable, the things we do eh?

Seriously, you are talking shit. You dont have WRB down there. You really dont understand what some of us are on about. Motorcycling is my world, it has been part of my life for the last 35 years. I take every precaution to ensure my safety, but I dont appreciate people introducing hazards into my life that I can not mitigate.

Please dont suggest I take a different route to work, no matter which way I go I have to deal with these fucken things on my way to work and back.

For the record I AM NOT MOTELY, and I much prefer different kind of fantasies :yes:

[Tony W]

Picure this........

The government are moving against us, the media appear to be on their side and the public are being gently wooed.

Any clearer?


Thanks.
I'd have to agree with you there.

......and the Govt too.

[Smifffy]

Motorcycling is optional.
It is a hobby, an indulgence.
We are all (99.9%) car/vehicle drivers.
We are a pimple, a minority, a thorn in roading society.
Special conditions for a motley few, are a self-centred fantasy.
Motorcycling is NOT the real world.
Let's get real.

Then why don't you take your pimply, motley, minority self off to a car/vehicle driver's forum?

It is not certain that "There but for the WRB the rider would have died" so it is a long bow to draw to say that the WRB saved his life.

Personally I'd rather not hit them, or concrete, or armco, but if I ever do end up hitting something I'd much prefer that it wasn't a WRB tyvm.

[bogan]

Motorcycling is optional.
It is a hobby, an indulgence.
We are all (99.9%) car/vehicle drivers.
We are a pimple, a minority, a thorn in roading society.
Special conditions for a motley few, are a self-centred fantasy.
Motorcycling is NOT the real world.
Let's get real.

Special conditions? I still don't see why it makes any difference (for other vehicle users) to TPTB whether they use a WRB or concrete barrier, can you point me to the research that shows there is?

[Mom]

I think there are some on here that should sell their bikes and become the Sanctimonious Arsehole's that attempt to kill bikers every day on the roads of NZ.

Yes, as a demographic there are some bikers that do nothing to help the cause, but you simply can not bag the majority, to highlight the minority. We have an appalling rate of killing ourselves, all by ourselves, that is a given, but FFS, dont accept road furniture that can and will kill you despite taking all precautions and being a careful biker.

Dead horse flogging time...

Fill your boots!

[Tony W]

That might be true for you, but dont try to fit others in your slot. I have been a dedicated car commuter and bike enthusiast as a hobby for a long time for sure, but I am about to become a first form of transport motorcyclist once again. I expect, nay DEMAND my roads are safe for me to ride. I have gone back to my 2 wheeled, first call of wheels, to save a bit of money and make my commute affordable, the things we do eh?

Seriously, you are talking shit. You dont have WRB down there. You really dont understand what some of us are on about. Motorcycling is my world, it has been part of my life for the last 35 years. I take every precaution to ensure my safety, but I dont appreciate people introducing hazards into my life that I can not mitigate.


REPLY

Just goes to show how a hobby takes over one's life, so one is deluded into believing that one's fantasy is reality.
A classic case in your case.

I may taik shit. I have been riding for MORE than 35 years, so therefore on your scale, I DO know what I am talking about. I bet you, you look for "vanishing points" when you ride.:yes:

[Katman]

We have an appalling rate of killing ourselves, all by ourselves, that is a given, but FFS, dont accept road furniture that can and will kill you despite taking all precautions and being a careful biker.

Dead horse flogging time...


Let's focus on another horse then......

....Ourselves.

[bogan]

Let's focus on another horse then......

....ourselves.

Whats the plan then? any ideas to get it fixed? Heaps of us already choose to ride defensively, how do you plan to change the minds of those who don't?

[Mom]

Just goes to show how a hobby takes over one's life, so one is deluded into believing that one's fantasy is reality. A classic case in your case.

My first and only form of transport was a motorcycle, for many, many years. I was a biker long before I owned and drove a car. Over the years I have owned and ridden many bikes, used to sell them for a living too. Recent years have seen my riding for pleasure, driving for reliability, hence my comment, but I have always been a biker at heart.

I am finally in a position to buy a reliable bike to commute on and that is exactly what I am going to do. I plan to spend many hours riding for pleasure as well.

Dont assume anything about people, it makes you look like a dick.

[Tony W]

Then why don't you take your pimply, motley, minority self off to a car/vehicle driver's forum?

It is not certain that "There but for the WRB the rider would have died" so it is a long bow to draw to say that the WRB saved his life.

Personally I'd rather not hit them, or concrete, or armco, but if I ever do end up hitting something I'd much prefer that it wasn't a WRB tyvm.



Motorcycling is dangerous.
I accept this as a fact.
Motorcyclists that are intimidated by our roads should sell their bikes and stop bleating, especially at those of us that ride confidently in all conditions.

It's just a case of mind over matter.

[Virago]

Motorcycling is optional.
It is a hobby, an indulgence.
We are all (99.9%) car/vehicle drivers...

99.9% of what you say is a load of shit...:innocent:

[bogan]

Motorcycling is dangerous.
I accept this as a fact.
Motorcyclists that are intimidated by our roads should sell their bikes and stop bleating, especially at those of us that ride confidently in all conditions.

It's just a case of mind over matter.

It doesn't have to be, why do you want to get in the way of people who want to make it safer?

[Smifffy]

Motorcycling is dangerous.
I accept this as a fact.
Motorcyclists that are intimidated by our roads should sell their bikes and stop bleating, especially at those of us that ride confidently in all conditions.

It's just a case of mind over matter.

We agree on something there, but it was you who even raised the subject of the WRBs, and now you are saying that bikers are motley pimples.

Just what is your point?

Edit: To clarify - I agree with the part about riders that are intimidated shouldn't ride. I don't agree that motorcycling is inherently dangerous.

[schrodingers cat]

There's nothing wrong with the design per se, just the construction materials.
Make them from marshmellow posts and licorice strap cables and we'd be fine. THe stretchyness would wrap you up like a big sweet cacoon and while you eat your way free you could think about the error of your ways.

There, I've made about much sense as both sides of this post already. I didn't realise the amount of religious fevour about this subject

[Tony W]

Dont assume anything about people, it makes you look like a dick.


You shouldn't really give people personal abuse. It shows lack of confidence in your own viewpoint, and lack of tolerance for others' views.

BTW, KB is full of Dicks, so what's the problem?

[Tony W]

99.9% of what you say is a load of shit...:innocent:


You're onto me, bastard ! :shutup:

[steve_t]

Na, just spotted it on Teletext. As a ''pro cheese-cuttist," I take a positive inference, that if the WRB weren't there, the chap would have been thrown into the oncoming lane, and run over by a "cager." (which no doubt, most of US are, 90% the time.)

What's your rationale for being proWRB as opposed to other kinds of barriers? (not proWRB vs nothing)

[Tony W]

There, I've made about much sense as both sides of this post already. I didn't realise the amount of religious fevour about this subject



Yeah, I'm Atheist.I
I hate pontificating do-gooders, and enjoy telling them they are SOFT.

Also, they bite real good !

[Tony W]

What's your rationale for being proWRB as opposed to other kinds of barriers? (not proWRB vs nothing)

I'm pro WRB v 0

[FJRider]

That might be true for you, but dont try to fit others in your slot. I have been a dedicated car commuter and bike enthusiast as a hobby for a long time for sure, but I am about to become a first form of transport motorcyclist once again. I expect, nay DEMAND my roads are safe for me to ride. I have gone back to my 2 wheeled, first call of wheels, to save a bit of money and make my commute affordable, the things we do eh?


Motorcycling IS dangerous ... but it is not the roads that make motorcycling "unsafe" .. it's the users of those roads that make it so ....

I hope you take into account of tyre costs, service costs, insurance ... general wear and tear that you cant really put a price on ... just end up with. (The shiny bits dont stay shiny for long ... no matter how hard you try) AND ... petrol is usually only half the cost of commuting ...

Commuting is seldom fun (for long) ... regardless of what you use ...


Seriously, you are talking shit. You dont have WRB down there. You really dont understand what some of us are on about. Motorcycling is my world, it has been part of my life for the last 35 years. I take every precaution to ensure my safety, but I dont appreciate people introducing hazards into my life that I can not mitigate.


Seriously ... WRB's are NOT just in the preserve of the north .... We have them down here, and I'm pretty sure ... from memory ... they ARE in the Hawkes Bay area. (Been there lately yourself ... ???)

From Collins English Dictionary ...Mitigate - Make less severe. Not, remove entirely.

It is MY opinion ... that whilst riding a motorcycle, one tends to spend twice (or more) the amount of time on thinking safety strategy's ... than you would in a car ... to be half as safe.

[Katman]

Whats the plan then? any ideas to get it fixed? Heaps of us already choose to ride defensively, how do you plan to change the minds of those who don't?

My plan?

I plan to make a bit of noise amongst those who can make the greatest change.

It's called process.

[Tony W]

We agree on something there, but it was you who even raised the subject of the WRBs, and now you are saying that bikers are motley pimples.

Just what is your point?




I am saying that we are an unwanted minority, by the Govt.
'Bikes are an unneccessary means of conveyance, are self-indulgent, dangerous toys.
That's why I like them.

[Smifffy]

I am saying that we are an unwanted minority, by the Govt.
'Bikes are an unneccessary means of conveyance, are self-indulgent, dangerous toys.
That's why I like them.

So what does that have to do with WRBs?

[bogan]

My plan?

I plan to make a bit of noise amongst those who can make the greatest change.

In other words, to tell someone else to do it. It is on our to do list, but without a good plan, and more good people, we can't do much.

[Katman]

So what does that have to do with WRBs?

What do WRBs have to do with the bigger picture?

[Katman]

In other words, to tell someone else to do it. It is on our to do list, but without a good plan, and more good people, we can't do much.

From little things big things grow.

[bogan]

So what does that have to do with WRBs?

Well he lost that argument/troll attempt, so he's trying something new I guess :facepalm:

[schrodingers cat]

Whats the plan then? any ideas to get it fixed? Heaps of us already choose to ride defensively, how do you plan to change the minds of those who don't?

Dear Bogan,
you are not 'your brother's keeper'

You presume that a measured and logical arguement will create change.
Personally I am a behaviourist. Action and CONSEQUENCES.

Some peoples purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

If that involves a cheescutter then so be it

[bogan]

From little things big things grow.

That's definitely the plan!

[Tony W]

So what does that have to do with WRBs?


...No Govt is going to listen to a few motorcycling "weirdos" imploring them to remove WRB's just for their own accident-prone brethren.

[Mom]

You shouldn't really give people personal abuse. It shows lack of confidence in your own viewpoint, and lack of tolerance for others' views.

BTW, KB is full of Dicks, so what's the problem?

I said what you were saying made you look like a dick, I did not personally abuse you. Dick is a shortened form of Richard, if you call that personal abuse I suggest you need to go and get your head read, really :yes:

[bogan]

Dear Bogan,
you are not 'your brother's keeper'

You presume that a measured and logical arguement will create change.
Personally I am a behaviourist. Action and CONSEQUENCES.

Some peoples purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

If that involves a cheescutter then so be it

A measure a logical argument can also be used to bring other on-side, who can then help with the action. In the bigger picture, too many are serving as warnings, and too few are heeding them. In the smaller WRB picture, you really only need to look at em to realise they should be avoided, hearing about others run ins with them probably won't inspire additional avoidance strategies.

[schrodingers cat]

look like a dick...
Dick is a shortened form of Richard

What does a Richard look like?

[steve_t]

What does a Richard look like?

This of course

<img src=http://suzideanne.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/richard-simmons.jpg>

[schrodingers cat]

A measure a logical argument can also be used to bring other on-side, who can then help with the action. In the bigger picture, too many are serving as warnings, and too few are heeding them. In the smaller WRB picture, you really only need to look at em to realise they should be avoided, hearing about others run ins with them probably won't inspire additional avoidance strategies.

In Big Rock Candy Mountain land perhaps. Maybe the figures are what they are and therefore correct.

You make a lovely wish that less people should die

I view WRB much like I view fences and postboxes and powerpoles and trucks parked on the side of the road and powerboxes and walls and so on

[bogan]

I view WRB much like I view fences and postboxes and powerpoles and trucks parked on the side of the road and powerboxes and walls and so on

Only one of those things is installed as a safety device.

[Tony W]

I said what you were saying made you look like a dick, I did not personally abuse you. Dick is a shortened form of Richard, if you call that personal abuse I suggest you need to go and get your head read, really :yes:

OK then.
What you are saying makes you look like a stupid slut.
No offence.

[schrodingers cat]

Only one of those things is installed as a safety device.

Doesn't really matter when you're hitting any of them.

I suggest to fund the super safety upgrage we install toll booths on the roads with WRB and motorcyclists ONLY can pay for the upgrade

[bogan]

Doesn't really matter when you're hitting any of them.

I suggest to fund the super safety upgrage we install toll booths on the roads with WRB and motorcyclists ONLY can pay for the upgrade

easier to hit nothing if it isn't there at all though isn't it?

sure, they can fund it from the money I pay to those on the benefit.

[steve_t]

Doesn't really matter when you're hitting any of them.

I suggest to fund the super safety upgrage we install toll booths on the roads with WRB and motorcyclists ONLY can pay for the upgrade

Why would you do that? :shit:

[Katman]

I was highly enthusiastic about the advent of MAG-NZ until I arrived at the realisation that they're just another organisation who refuses to publicly address the root cause of our ills.

[FJRider]

Only one of those things is installed as a safety device.

Power poles keep the power cables off the ground ... out of our way ... (most of the time)

Fences keep stock off the raod ... (most of the time)

WRB's keep traffic on the road/in their lane ... (most of the time )

ergo ... all are safety devices ...

[schrodingers cat]

easier to hit nothing if it isn't there at all though isn't it?

sure, they can fund it from the money I pay to those on the benefit.

No no sweetie. You want action. You want things fixed. Lets have toll booths then to pay for the removal of the WRB.
Paid for by like minded (to you) motorcyclists - Yeah right.

I guess when the other road users learn who paid for them to be able to drive into the face of oncoming traffic they will be so grateful they will look once, look twice, look bike.

Stay on subject and accept you can't have your cake and eat it too

[bogan]

I was highly enthusiastic about the advent of MAG-NZ until I arrived at the realisation that they're just another organisation who refuses to publicly address the root cause of our ills.

Maybe we just need a plan ready to sort the problem, before making a public address.


No no sweetie. You want action. You want things fixed. Lets have toll booths then to pay for the removal of the WRB.
Paid for by like minded (to you) motorcyclists - Yeah right.

I guess when the other road users learn who paid for them to be able to drive into the face of oncoming traffic they will be so grateful they will look once, look twice, look bike.

Stay on subject and accept you can't have your cake and eat it too

Spare me the condescension, I don't think it is helping your cause. My point was this place isn't pay your own way, and road safety certainly isn't, why do you think it should be?

[schrodingers cat]

Spare me the condescension, I don't think it is helping your cause. My point was this place isn't pay your own way, and road safety certainly isn't, why do you think it should be?

Unlike yourself, I don't have a cause - nor a crusade.

I'm just saying that if you really want something done the best thing is to pay for it yourself. It really is the ultimate measure of who agrees with you.

[bogan]

Unlike yourself, I don't have a cause - nor a crusade.

I'm just saying that if you really want something done the best thing is to pay for it yourself. It really is the ultimate measure of who agrees with you.

Actually, it just measures the wealth of those who agree with you, surely you wouldn't suggest the measure of a person is thier wealth? The first step would have to be to get TPTB to stop putting up any more WRBs anyway. This is not something that can be paid for (unless you bribe people), but is something that requires a sound argument, and a lot of support. Given time I'm confident we will get both.

[schrodingers cat]

Actually, it just measures the wealth of those who agree with you, surely you wouldn't suggest the measure of a person is thier wealth? The first step would have to be to get TPTB to stop putting up any more WRBs anyway. This is not something that can be paid for (unless you bribe people), but is something that requires a sound argument, and a lot of support. Given time I'm confident we will get both.

It measures who is prepared to reallocate their resources. Is the removal of WRB more important than milk in your coffee?

Yo actually need to be sure you have a mandate. At the moment all I hear is a voice

[Mom]

=Tony W;1130027078]OK then.
What you are saying makes you look like a stupid slut.
No offence.

Stupid is not something I own, but if you want, it does not offend me. Slut is short for? Susan? Sylvia? Not sure. Also no offense taken, but you are cruising close to my, go fuck yourself tolerance. You are on notice now :sunny:

[bogan]

It measures who is prepared to reallocate their resources. Is the removal of WRB more important than milk in your coffee?

Yo actually need to be sure you have a mandate. At the moment all I hear is a voice

Like I said, the first step is to get the support (a lot more than one voice). I reckon the majority of bikers already want them gone, remember, the world is bigger (and has far fewer trolls) than kiwibiker.

[Taz]

I was highly enthusiastic about the advent of MAG-NZ until I arrived at the realisation that they're just another organisation who refuses to publicly address the root cause of our ills.

What's this MAG-NZ thing? Some sort of club?

[schrodingers cat]

Like I said, the first step is to get the support (a lot more than one voice). I reckon the majority of bikers already want them gone, remember, the world is bigger (and has far fewer trolls) than kiwibiker.

The sun will rise in the east and all will be well in the world when we all agree with YOU

[bogan]

What's this MAG-NZ thing? Some sort of club?

heres the latest news about us http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/136412-The-new-MAG-NZ?highlight=mag-nz or for the official page (www.mag-nz.org)

[schrodingers cat]

Just wondering, when you are engaged in the political process to force change and you encounter robust disagreement do you resort to name calling?

All the best.

I'd be interested to see a poll with 3 options

WRB Gone
WRB Stay
I don't give a shit

Conside #3 as status quo

[bogan]

Just wondering, when you are engaged in the political process to force change and you encounter robust disagreement do you resort to name calling?

All the best

Of course not, why would you even ask that?

[Smifffy]

I don't think that WRB are the best type of barrier, but unfortunately neither do I think that NZ roads are the best type of road. Cheap and nasty is what we have, and most likely what we will continue to get.

I expect that materials and procedures used will only get cheaper and nastier, whilst also becoming more expensive.

The only debate that I have seen lately around WRBs has been initiated by the OP.

[swbarnett]

Motorcycling is optional.
So is EVERYTHING in life. Even life itself.


It is a hobby, an indulgence.
Hobby, passion and 24x7, 365days a year transport, rain, hail or shine.


We are all (99.9%) car/vehicle drivers.
I think you will find that percentage is rather high.


We are a pimple, a minority, a thorn in roading society.
If a biker thinks like this it's no wonder our image is not what it could be.


Special conditions for a motley few, are a self-centred fantasy.
Not special, but reasonable conditions for a legal mode of transport and a valid life choice. Next you'll be saying cyclists don't deserve cycle lanes.


Motorcycling is NOT the real world.
Let's get real.
You ignorant, self centred bastard!

What is the REAL world then? Ask a million people that question and you'll get a million different answers. Stop assuming your answer applies to everyone else. EVERY way of life is valid as long as it respects the right of others to theirs.

Just becuase you view your motorcycle as a frivolous play thing does not mean the rest of us do.

[monkeymcbean]

I don't think that WRB are the best type of barrier, but unfortunately neither do I think that NZ roads are the best type of road. Cheap and nasty is what we have, and most likely what we will continue to get.

I expect that materials and procedures used will only get cheaper and nastier, whilst also becoming more expensive.

The only debate that I have seen lately around WRBs has been initiated by the OP.

Been riding on some lovely 'hot mix' they have replaced the chip with, on the 'Crown Range' road yesterday.....smoooothhh
They also put armco up instead of the WRB....much less of a eye sore.

But there is a fair bit of use of WRB on our roads where I ride down here to unfortunately, I don't like it, but I would not mind it if was installed as originally specified with a 6 metre no mans land gap between it and the road user.

[swbarnett]

Motorcycling is dangerous.
What a load of crap!

As my sig. says:
"Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!"


I accept this as a fact.
Then you are deluded. Properly treated motorcycling is no more dangerous than car driving. Yes, you will get hurt more if you hit something but the risk of hitting that something to an experienced, respectfull rider is no different.


Motorcyclists that are intimidated by our roads should sell their bikes and stop bleating, especially at those of us that ride confidently in all conditions.

Let's say that overnight a hundred pot-holes appeared outside your house. The 4WD set have no problem but it makes riding out of your driveway impossible. Would you sell the bike if the council refused to fill them in?


It's just a case of mind over matter.
Yes, I see that - You don't mind and, in your eyes, we don't matter.

[Mom]

Just wondering, when you are engaged in the political process to force change and you encounter robust disagreement do you resort to name calling?

Just for the record, and to get things really clear, I have not seen anyone representing MAG-NZ call anyone names on this thread.

I have said that the way one member posts makes him look like a dick, but then I can say that. I do not represent MAG-NZ.

I will robustly debate what I believe in with anyone, I no longer am hampered by a "group". I will say what I want, when I want.

[Tony W]

Stupid is not something I own, but if you want, it does not offend me. Slut is short for? Susan? Sylvia? Not sure. Also no offense taken, but you are cruising close to my, go fuck yourself tolerance. You are on notice now :sunny:

I think you are getting a little upset and off topic :yes:
This is fantastic !
You are now exposing yourself for other peole to judge.
If you snap, I win. :woohoo:

[swbarnett]

Commuting is seldom fun (for long) ... regardless of what you use ...
I've been commuting this stint for 4 years now and I still love it over a car. Puts a smile on my face before work gets in to try and wipe it off.

[Tony W]

Stupid is not something I own, but if you want, it does not offend me. Slut is short for? Susan? Sylvia? Not sure. Also no offense taken, but you are cruising close to my, go fuck yourself tolerance. You are on notice now :sunny:


What appalling language.
I think you are getting a little upset and off topic :yes:
This is fantastic !
You are now exposing yourself for other people to judge.
If you snap, I win. :woohoo:

[Oblivion]

What appalling language.
I think you are getting a little upset and off topic :yes:
This is fantastic !
You are now exposing yourself for other people to judge.
If you snap, I win. :woohoo:

Well, if you toned down your arrogance by I don't know... alot, There would be no need for such language.

You are making seem like you are some almighty overlord. Don't let your ego get the better of you.

[Tony W]

You ignorant, self centred bastard!


Just becuase you view your motorcycle as a frivolous play thing does not mean the rest of us do.

The "rest" are so tied up in their fantasy, that they cannot objectively look at themselves. Motorcycles ARE a play thing, we ride for enjoyment. Your type are basically as normal as Train-spotters.

[Tony W]

Well, if you toned down your arrogance by I don't know... alot, There would be no need for such language.

You are making seem like you are some almighty overlord. Don't let your ego get the better of you.

Not as pompous as crusaders who think they speak for all of us.

[Tony W]

I will say what I want, when I want.

Gosh, someone should.....no offence...... tell you to STFU

[Tony W]

What a load of crap!

As my sig. says:
"Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!"


Then you are deluded. Properly treated motorcycling is no more dangerous than car driving. Yes, you will get hurt more if you hit something but the risk of hitting that something to an experienced, respectfull rider is no different.



Let's say that overnight a hundred pot-holes appeared outside your house. The 4WD set have no problem but it makes riding out of your driveway impossible. Would you sell the bike if the council refused to fill them in?


Yes, I see that - You don't mind and, in your eyes, we don't matter.

Wow. You are putting a lot of effort into this. I commend you on your passion.

[swbarnett]

The "rest" are so tied up in their fantasy, that they cannot objectively look at themselves. Motorcycles ARE a play thing, we ride for enjoyment.
You are either the biggest troll I've come across or your head is planted firmly where the sun don't shine.

My motorcycle is no more a play thing than my freind's Commodore.

Stop assuming that your way of life is the ONLY way of life.


Your type are basically as normal as Train-spotters.
This says it all. You have no tolerance for another's way of life. Just because you don't understand it does not make it any less valid!

[JohnR]

Not as pompous as crusaders who think they speak for all of us.

So when MAG NZ or BRONZ or Katman etc get a result you will be there saying "these people don't speak for me! I will continue to pay the highest ACC levy/ don't want the subsidised training offered etc." Tui:yes:

[Tony W]

Well, if you toned down your arrogance by I don't know... alot, There would be no need for such language.

You are making seem like you are some almighty overlord. Don't let your ego get the better of you.

Goodness, where did you pop up from ?

[zeocen]

Hey Tony,

Fuck up.

[Tony W]

Hey Tony,

Fuck up.

Na

:yes:

[Katman]

You have no tolerance for another's way of life. Just because you don't understand it does not make it any less valid!

Even though his delivery may suck........

........his message is pretty much bang on the money.

[Kickaha]

Even though his delivery may suck........

........his message is pretty much bang on the money.

He sounded familiar, is he your twin brother?

[Spearfish]

at least 10 characters.

[Smifffy]

Even though his delivery may suck........

........his message is pretty much bang on the money.

By that I take it you mean his complete inability to make a coherent point in support of his original posit?

[Katman]

He sounded familiar, is he your twin brother?

Nah, Viscount Montgomery holds that spot at the moment.

[Kickaha]

Nah, Viscount Montgomery holds that spot at the moment.

Fucking triplets, what are the odds

[schrodingers cat]

These threads always deteriorate to the point where the shouting starts, the debate stops, the open minds close with their fists and away we go....divided we stand united we fall.

You're a troll!
No you're the troll.
Am not
Are too
Not
Are

etc ad finitum

(PS, I agree with you.) .

[Oblivion]

Even though his delivery may suck........

........his message is pretty much bang on the money.

So your saying that IF a motoryclist lowslides and crosses the centreline, where there is no cheese graters, The car driver WILL run him over.

He is just assuming that all car drivers are stupid and not aware enough to look at oncoming traffic.

If a car driver runs over a motorcyclist wherein he has a distance of over 100m to stop, then he should not be on the road.(M/C is stationary). Road safety is looking out after others as well as taking your own safety into account as well.

Just because he didn't go over the centreline and into a potentially dangerous situation doesn't mean that the barriers did there job. One person is seriously injured in an incident that could have been minor, IF THERE WAS AMPLE RESPONSE FROM ALL PARTIES ON THE MOTORWAY. When there is no barriers.

Like it or not, these barriers are a double-edged sword.

[Spearfish]

at least 10 characters.

[Tony W]

I am still of the opinion that were it not for the WRB, the chap would no longer be with us.

Good night everyone. :bye:

[scumdog]

More effort needed if this is to achieve P.D. status...:shifty:

[Spearfish]

at least 10 characters.

[Smifffy]

I am still of the opinion that were it not for the WRB, the chap would no longer be with us.

Good night everyone. :bye:

Goodnight, I hope your hangover isn't too bad in the morning :rofl:

[swbarnett]

Even though his delivery may suck........

........his message is pretty much bang on the money.
Sorry, this I cannot accept. Yours might be but certainly not his.

My bike is a way of life, an extension of my personality.

[Katman]

My bike is a way of life, an extension of my personality.

As mine is to me.

I didn't say his message was perfect - but if you read the words, they're pretty much on the button.

[schrodingers cat]

I didn't say his message was perfect - but if you read the words, they're pretty much on the button.

Don't you think that for someone porporting to front something that the delivery needs to be a bit smoother?

[Katman]

Don't you think that for someone porporting to front something that the delivery needs to be a bit smoother?

I haven't seen him (nor me) purporting to front anything.

[awayatc]

scuse me .....
This a public toilet?

has to be,
with the amount of shit that's here.......

[Conquiztador]

Picure this........

The government are moving against us, the media appear to be on their side and the public are being gently wooed.

Any clearer?

And sadly you have hit the nail this time. (But it had to happen sometime... ;-) ) This has become very clear after the ACC debate and the ride. There are evil forces working against us and they are gathering speed and using increasingly underhand tactics. The media is not "on their side", the media has been bought and gone over to the dark side and we are doomed. The only thing that can now save us is a Biker Messiah. If only someone would step up and preach the message for us all I am sure we would all fall in line and follow!

[Mom]

I think you are getting a little upset and off topic :yes:
This is fantastic !
You are now exposing yourself for other peole to judge.
If you snap, I win. :woohoo:


What appalling language.
I think you are getting a little upset and off topic :yes:
This is fantastic !
You are now exposing yourself for other people to judge.
If you snap, I win. :woohoo:

:laugh: Sorry, but I was not the one repeating myself, me thinks you may have been the one getting upset, clearly forgetting you had already posted your witty response. I was off having a nice soak in the spa with my lovely man, you were the one ranting on here :yes:

Peace!

[Tony W]

:laugh: Sorry, but I was not the one repeating myself, me thinks you may have been the one getting upset, clearly forgetting you had already posted your witty response. I was off having a nice soak in the spa with my lovely man, :yes:

Peace!

Oooh YUK !!
I think we are both guilty of providing "too much information," then...:yes:

Have a safe commute.

[Berries]

And sadly you have hit the nail this time. (But it had to happen sometime... ;-) ) This has become very clear after the ACC debate and the ride. There are evil forces working against us and they are gathering speed and using increasingly underhand tactics. The media is not "on their side", the media has been bought and gone over to the dark side and we are doomed. The only thing that can now save us is a Biker Messiah. If only someone would step up and preach the message for us all I am sure we would all fall in line and follow!
Would we bollocks. Motorcycling is full of individuals and they aren't going to follow some leader like sheep - look at the low number of members for the various organisations. Didn't Gareth Morgan stand up ? Ho ho.

I also disagree with the point about evil forces working against us. ACC is up because we are an expensive road user. I haven't seen anything else that indicates they are trying to remove us from the roads.

The media are on no side. There are no good news stories regarding motorbikes, "ooh, look, a toy run" doesn't hack it anymore. And the media only deal in shit, which we, as a user group, are happy to provide them.

[Grubber]

C'mon with the trolling already.

The frikkin WRB (or whatever you prefer to call it) didn't exactly leap out and attack the dude, did it??:blink:

So how did he end up wrapped around it?

Ummmm....hang on i'll get it.....ummmmm......is it "he fell off and hit it?"

[Maha]

Who knows. It's a motorway - like any road, there's plenty of things to hit or be hit by, if a rider is very determined. Or pissed.
Of course, the articles all say 'that alcohol was a factor'. We are left to assume it was the rider who was pissed. It is just possible that the rider was sober and doing his best to avoid a pissed car driver, eh? "alcohol a factor' fits that scenario, too.

We rode passed the accident area on Saturday morning and there was kitty litter patches for about 500mts in both lanes...seems to me that there was fluid of some sort left on the road by another vehicle previous.
But of cause I didnt attend the accident so this is just my assumption of what may have played a part.

[Conquiztador]

Would we bollocks. Motorcycling is full of individuals and they aren't going to follow some leader like sheep - look at the low number of members for the various organisations. Didn't Gareth Morgan stand up ? Ho ho.

I also disagree with the point about evil forces working against us. ACC is up because we are an expensive road user. I haven't seen anything else that indicates they are trying to remove us from the roads.

The media are on no side. There are no good news stories regarding motorbikes, "ooh, look, a toy run" doesn't hack it anymore. And the media only deal in shit, which we, as a user group, are happy to provide them.

I still recon we are waiting for someone to stand up and show us the light. Perhaps if we could get a group of motorcycle riders to start an organisation that could chrystalise what we all are wanting and saying, then we could all support them and we would be seen as one group. We could all ride together and have a flag up front, we could stop in parks and have meetings where someone of the leaders would hold an enlightening speech. Then we could end up on the backpage of the local free paper and we would be on the way to save the world!

[Maha]

I still recon we are waiting for someone to stand up and show us the light. Perhaps if we could get a group of motorcycle riders to start an organisation that could chrystalise what we all are wanting and saying, then we could all support them and we would be seen as one group. We could all ride together and have a flag up front, we could stop in parks and have meetings where someone of the leaders would hold an enlightening speech. Then we could end up on the backpage of the local free paper and we would be on the way to save the world!

Been done...its called 'The Big Gay Out'.

[Conquiztador]

Been done...its called 'The Big Gay Out'.

Yes, but this one would be different. The group would ceverly use words from the biker world in their name. They would do things differently, have monthly meetings, discuss issues, do news releases, and show all the others how it should be done! They could even have small sew on badges that all the supporters could sew on. Can you imagine the discussions those would create around the campfire?

Someone should really do this!

[Maha]

Yes, but this one would be different. The group would ceverly use words from the biker world in their name. They would do things differently, have monthly meetings, discuss issues, do news releases, and show all the others how it should be done! They could even have small sew on badges that all the supporters could sew on. Can you imagine the discussions those would create around the campfire?

Someone should really do this!

Nice enough concept but there is a flaw...
Who has the right to dictate to any other how they should conduct themselves on the road? other than the Law Enforement Officers.

PS: dont forget the marshmellows.

[Conquiztador]

Nice enough concept but there is a flaw...
Who has the right to dictate to any other how they should conduct themselves on the road? other than the Law Enforement Officers.

PS: dont forget the marshmellows.

But see, it would be no directing. It would be enlightening us all, get us to see the light, make us all fall in line of our own free will. I am sure we all just waiting for someone to stand up and to get us to conform! A weight of responsibility would fall of our shoulders. And yes, the marshmellows would be a nice touch. Thanks!!

[Maha]

But see, it would be no directing. It would be enlightening us all, get us to see the light, make us all fall in line of our own free will. I am sure we all just waiting for someone to stand up and to get us to conform! A weight of responsibility would fall of our shoulders. And yes, the marshmellows would be a nice touch. Thanks!!

Up until recently I was apart of a group where 12 people could even agree on one question/issue/request whatever, how on earth do you foresee approx 100,000 in agreement with 'Group Idol'...100,00 being the approximate registered bike owner of NZ.
Anyway, nice day, no work today, Im off to see TOTO in Auckland....:sunny:

[imdying]

The score is now 1-1.Interesting that the only two to tangle with them so far, on both sides of the equation, were riding like dick heads. So if you're not riding like a twat (pulling wheelies, or pissed as), WRB aren't a problem?

[Conquiztador]

Up until recently I was apart of a group where 12 people could even agree on one question/issue/request whatever, how on earth do you foresee approx 100,000 in agreement with 'Group Idol'...100,00 being the approximate registered bike owner of NZ.


THAT is what the Messiah is for!! If only someone would step up to the task!

[BoristheBiter]

THAT is what the Messiah is for!! If only someone would step up to the task!

I think his name is Brian.

[MSTRS]

... one is deluded into believing that one's fantasy is reality.
...Aint that the truth...


You shouldn't really give people personal abuse. It shows lack of confidence in your own viewpoint, and lack of tolerance for others' views.
Fuck, you're on a roll...


Motorcycling IS dangerous ... but it is not the roads that make motorcycling "unsafe" .. it's the users of those roads that make it so ....
And sometimes those users are other motorcyclists. Interesting that you chose the word 'user'.


.
Seriously ... WRB's are NOT just in the preserve of the north .... We have them down here, and I'm pretty sure ... from memory ... they ARE in the Hawkes Bay area. .No. Not yet, at least. But we do have those horrible new steel poles on Armco.


Power poles keep the power cables off the ground ... out of our way ... (most of the time)

Fences keep stock off the raod ... (most of the time)

WRB's keep traffic on the road/in their lane ... (most of the time )

ergo ... all are safety devices ...
Sorry, but that's a strange way of looking at power poles and fences. Their primary function is not for road users' safety. Unlike barriers of any sort. They are there for one function only...safety. Apparently.


What appalling language.
I think you are getting a little upset and off topic :yes:
This is fantastic !
You are now exposing yourself for other people to judge.
If you snap, I win. :woohoo:Another few gems, right from the horse's mouth.

Winners and losers is where it's at for this poster. IE - he's a winner, and everyone else is a loser. Which brings us back to his first quoted post above...

[avgas]

have to state the obvious, but if the WRB wasn't there, what would he have hit to make him fall off?
Trees, wheelie bins, cars, dogs, cats, diesel, road cones, gravel, bits of car, bits of rubbish, people........

Shit happens. Its not like the WRB jumped out to get him. Last time I checked they don't move.

[avgas]

So your saying that IF a motoryclist lowslides and crosses the centreline, where there is no cheese graters, The car driver WILL run him over.

He is just assuming that all car drivers are stupid and not aware enough to look at oncoming traffic.

If a car driver runs over a motorcyclist wherein he has a distance of over 100m to stop, then he should not be on the road.(M/C is stationary). Road safety is looking out after others as well as taking your own safety into account as well.

Just because he didn't go over the centreline and into a potentially dangerous situation doesn't mean that the barriers did there job. One person is seriously injured in an incident that could have been minor, IF THERE WAS AMPLE RESPONSE FROM ALL PARTIES ON THE MOTORWAY. When there is no barriers.
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa
Responsible road users
bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I think I am going to cry that is so funny.

[swbarnett]

Interesting that the only two to tangle with them so far, on both sides of the equation, were riding like dick heads.
Certainly not what I heard about the first one.

[Berries]

Perhaps if we could get a group of motorcycle riders to start an organisation that could chrystalise what we all are wanting and saying, then we could all support them and we would be seen as one group.
We can't even decide whether hi-viz wearing ATGATT riders should be burnt, shot or simply beheaded, there is no chance of a consensus on anything serious.


The score is now 1-1.
Not quite, there have been more than two bike vs wire rope barrier crashes in NZ.

[Ocean1]

Not quite, there have been more than two bike vs wire rope barrier crashes in NZ.

And no doubt dozens of bike vs concrete barrier crashes.

And y'know, I can't recall a fatality...

Holy shit, mebe we're onto something!

[Berries]

Just pointing out a fact for the OP.

[Pixie]

In the space of a heading and four sentences they mentioned 'motorcycle' 3 times and 'rider' twice.

I think the public can add simple sums.

So there were 5 bikers?

[aff-man]

Trees, wheelie bins, cars, dogs, cats, diesel, road cones, gravel, bits of car, bits of rubbish, people........

Shit happens. Its not like the WRB jumped out to get him. Last time I checked they don't move.

True.... But taking the alcamahol out of the equation, when said shit happens I like the odds of backing myself on the entire road rather than have the choice of hitting said shit or a WRB.

[avgas]

Not quite, there have been more than two bike vs wire rope barrier crashes in NZ.
Doesn't surprise me. Seen a few morons on bikes these days.
We need some kind trick question on learners scratchy test

When riding near Wire Rope Barriers:
a) Ride safely and avoid hitting them
b) Ride dangerously
c) Ride into them
d) Ride near them
e) Do a wheelie

[avgas]

True.... But taking the alcamahol out of the equation, when said shit happens I like the odds of backing myself on the entire road rather than have the choice of hitting said shit or a WRB.
I used to - but then the other side of the road brought all its traffic over to visit me on my side.
Looking at current statistics - I don't think this was a "once in a lifetime" event.

[Kickaha]

Not quite, there have been more than two bike vs wire rope barrier crashes in NZ.

Only really two that have been made public on here though

How many more have there been and what injuries did the riders get?

[StoneY]

I myself cooled off a bit in regards the WRB's after one saved mine and Kelly's lives one cold night on River Road when it caught that commodore and kept it in the other lane...........

These attachments show what CAN be done to WRB's and ARMCO to make it a little safer tho235973235974235975235973235974235975

[MSTRS]

These attachments show what CAN be done to WRB's and ARMCO to make it a little safer tho

It's not much to ask, is it? If the pricks want to save money (and that's debateable) by using such barriers, at least they could ensure that they are fitted with devices to improve our chances in an up close and personal meeting.
But no, they will use any excuse not to do so...

[Str8 Jacket]

Motorcycling is optional.
It is a hobby, an indulgence.
We are all (99.9%) car/vehicle drivers.
We are a pimple, a minority, a thorn in roading society.
Special conditions for a motley few, are a self-centred fantasy.
Motorcycling is NOT the real world.
Let's get real.

I do not have a car licence but have had a full bike licence for years. I ride my bike to and from work every day, in any type of weather and use it to get everywhere and to do my shopping etc etc. Tell me where any of those tasks are not "in the real world"?

Just saying....

[Tony W]

I do not have a car licence but have had a full bike licence for years. I ride my bike to and from work every day, in any type of weather and use it to get everywhere and to do my shopping etc etc. Tell me where any of those tasks are not "in the real world"?

Just saying....

Those comments only applied to 99.9% of us !:yes:

.....not you. :innocent:

[Berries]

Only really two that have been made public on here though
KB doesn't count for much when it come to real world stuff though does it. Entertainment value only.


How many more have there been and what injuries did the riders get?
Thinking the question might come up, this morning I started going through every bike vs guardrail crash over the last five years to check but halfway through 2006 something else cropped up so I left it. I personally know of two crashes in Otago where a bike/rider hit wire rope barriers. No other vehicle involved - wind in one, fatigue in the other, and the survivable injuries were caused by hitting the ground hard rather than the barrier. It is a nasty barrier if you slide in to it but in my view a standard armco barrier will do just as much damage. As Ocean1 said, concrete median barriers would be a significant improvement but even though the ongoing maintenance costs are practically zero I can't see it happening. In fact, over the next couple of years I can see a massive increase in the amount of wire rope barriers being used in NZ. You won't be able to stop it, so the best thing to do is try and make them rider friendly. As posted elsewhere, it is possible.


But no, they will use any excuse not to do so...
Fabian has left now, so it may be worth another prod at them.

[Berries]

Doesn't surprise me. Seen a few morons on bikes these days.
We need some kind trick question on learners scratchy test

When riding near Wire Rope Barriers:
a) Ride safely and avoid hitting them
b) Ride dangerously
c) Ride into them
d) Ride near them
e) Do a wheelie
Substitute the words Wire Rope Barriers for any other kind of barrier, or cars, or pedestrians, or footpaths, trees, power poles, bridges, houses etc etc .

Obviously e) is a trick answer. Wheelies are cool.

[Kickaha]

KB doesn't count for much when it come to real world stuff though does it. Entertainment value only.

Quite true if there were other WRB accidents where no injuries were sustained they probably wouldn't tend to get posted up as that fucks up the argument about how dangerous they are


I personally know of two crashes in Otago where a bike/rider hit wire rope barriers. No other vehicle involved - wind in one, fatigue in the other, and the survivable injuries were caused by hitting the ground hard

Surely not, you mean people have hit these barriers and haven't been injured by them? I didn't think that was possible :whistle:

[Ocean1]

In fact, over the next couple of years I can see a massive increase in the amount of wire rope barriers being used in NZ. You won't be able to stop it, so the best thing to do is try and make them rider friendly. As posted elsewhere, it is possible.

Can't find the reference now but it showed budget figures for WRB vs concrete. WRB was a few percent cheaper to install, more costly than concrete if you included maintenance costs. Any added installation costs at all would probably make WRB more expensive than concrete and should make it lose it's preferred option status.

However, I suspect there's a perception amongst civil engineers that it's energy absorption and dissipation characteristics make it a winner. I disagree, I believe that’s true of a reasonably narrow range of masses and angles. However that's likely to be the reason for it's continued proposal for ongoing projects, even in situations where it fails to comply with best practice in terms of placement and offset from the traffic line. The fact that the posts dice motorcyclists nicely simply won't register in that decision process, statistically and politically we're simply not visible.

Cost is likely to be the main consideration in it's acceptance as proposed by civil designers by local bodies and national roading agencies. Maintenance, of course will be a separate budget, almost certainly a separate service supplier, of no concern to either the designer or the primary contractor.

There are examples of recent barrier projects where WRB hasn't been used. The armco around the Pauatahanui inlet is an example. I wonder if the environmental lobby groups might have had some input, there, they're certainly more influential than any of the bikers lobby groups. Armco isn't much better for us, (if at all) but it's evidence it can be done.

There may well be other, non-financial factors in the overwhelming preference for WRB in the face of good engineering and well researched safety, but I don't know what they are. Certainly some of the reasons I've heard for it's use amount to poorly considered excusses for a decision already made. It is not, for example readily moved out of the way to allow traffic flow to resume or to allow safety vehicles better access to an accident site.

It’s disappointing, (not to mention hugely inequitable) that a reasonably large slice of road users can be so effectively disenfranchised from such decisions but nonetheless charged more for their use of the roads on the stated basis that they’re injured more often.

[MSTRS]

It’s disappointing, (not to mention hugely inequitable) that a reasonably large slice of road users can be so effectively disenfranchised from such decisions but nonetheless charged more for their use of the roads on the stated basis that they’re injured more often.

Quoted to draw attention to this glaring fact.

[Katman]

It’s disappointing, (not to mention hugely inequitable) that a reasonably large slice of road users can be so effectively disenfranchised from such decisions but nonetheless charged more for their use of the roads on the stated basis that they’re injured more often.

Since when has 2% been "a reasonably large slice"?

[bogan]

Since when has 2% been "a reasonably large slice"?

3% of the vehicle fleet, and just under 100,000 bikes in 08, and probably a smidge more now. I would consider it very reasonable that the planners and engineers think of us when designing roads.

[Ocean1]

Since when has 2% been "a reasonably large slice"?

If it's large enough to charge more expressly to cover ACC related costs then it's large enough to consider when designing roads in order to explicitly mitigate those costs.

I wonder what percentage of the road-going public are represented by cyclists in order that special consideration be given them in terms of infrastructure design. Must be rather a high percentage to justify completely separate lanes, a raft of different legislation and licence to park wherever they want I suppose...

[StoneY]

3% of the vehicle fleet, and just under 100,000 bikes in 08, and probably a smidge more now. I would consider it very reasonable that the planners and engineers think of us when designing roads.

They do in Victoria, and the changes in the engineering standards there have been proven to save lives

[Ocean1]

They do in Victoria, and the changes in the engineering standards there have been proven to save lives

Hush, we only copy Victoria for revenue positive initiatives.

[StoneY]

Hush, we only copy Victoria for revenue positive initiatives.

And we will be :-)

[Berries]

Can't find the reference now but it showed budget figures for WRB vs concrete. WRB was a few percent cheaper to install, more costly than concrete if you included maintenance costs. Any added installation costs at all would probably make WRB more expensive than concrete and should make it lose it's preferred option status.I see the concrete median barrier was hit again today on the southern 'motorway' in Dunedin. Zero repair costs. A section of wire rope was taken out a fortnight ago, repair would have been five figures when you take in to account traffic management. Whole life cost is not a consideration, if it was we would see more concrete.


I wonder if the environmental lobby groups might have had some input, there, they're certainly more influential than any of the bikers lobby groups.Not sure, but visual intrusion, particularly when placed along lake sides, must be a reason it is preferred to armco in those places.

[Ocean1]

Not sure, but visual intrusion, particularly when placed along lake sides, must be a reason it is preferred to armco in those places.

Paremata-Haywards road. It's got a 1M drop to either sand or reed beds. http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?hl=en&biw=1341&bih=647&q=paekakariki%20hill%20road&wrapid=tlif130207634521011&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl It's got Armco for most of it's length.

Paekakariki hill is a narrow windy road with a steep fall of maybe 100M to the railway line and/or SH1: http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?hl=en&biw=1341&bih=647&q=paekakariki%20hill%20road&wrapid=tlif130207634521011&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
It's got intermittent stretched of ankle high wooden railings I could kick over the edge.


The trafic density's lower, but risk should be a part of any safety analisys and I just can't make it add up. Unless those herronduckgoose things at Paremata are very very nasty to land on.

[BoristheBiter]

The trafic density's lower, but risk should be a part of any safety analisys and I just can't make it add up. Unless those herronduckgoose things at Paremata are very very nasty to land on.

So as only 2 bike have hit a WRB they deem the risk as insignificant, I guess.
It would be good to see what parameters they use in a safety analysis for any piece of road.

[MSTRS]

So as only 2 bike have hit a WRB they deem the risk as insignificant, I guess.
It would be good to see what parameters they use in a safety analysis for any piece of road.

More than 2, apparently. 1 death and 1 serious injury.
Armco strikes are no good either...lots of deaths over the years.
The difference is Armco has been around longer and is in more places.
Wait until WRB has the same proliferation. I will guarantee the injury/death rate will be waaaay higher than with Armco.

Roading engineers use a system of greater/lesser risk in determining whether a barrier is required. ie - a particular condition on this bit of road poses x amount of risk. Will a barrier pose a lesser risk, or a greater risk, if installed?

[BoristheBiter]

More than 2, apparently. 1 death and 1 serious injury.
Armco strikes are no good either...lots of deaths over the years.
The difference is Armco has been around longer and is in more places.
Wait until WRB has the same proliferation. I will guarantee the injury/death rate will be waaaay higher than with Armco.

Roading engineers use a system of greater/lesser risk in determining whether a barrier is required. ie - a particular condition on this bit of road poses x amount of risk. Will a barrier pose a lesser risk, or a greater risk, if installed?

I wish some correct figures can be found in regards to who's hit what so we can see what impact these have made and also death/injury with each type.

One side of me thinks they are better for keeping people on there side of the road and the biker in me gives them a very wide berth as i know i would never what to try them out.
In fact i would not want to try any of them out.

[Ocean1]

So as only 2 bike have hit a WRB they deem the risk as insignificant, I guess.
It would be good to see what parameters they use in a safety analysis for any piece of road.

I wasn't clear. Risk = exposure x consequence.

If the traffic is heavy but the likely consequence of a prang are very light then there's probably no need to engineer a safety solution. If the traffic's light but a crash will definitely see you plummet 100 metres onto a railway line then that might be a good place to spend a bit of budget on a barrier.

This is really basic, safety 101, but it doesn't stack up against actual barrier projects. History indicates that when decisions are made by local or national governments that don't agree with specialist advice it's invariably because a politician has a vested interest in the outcome.

[MSTRS]

...vested interest...

This is the bit that always niggles at me. The statistics surrounding various barrier types, from all over the world, are discounted by the claims 'that there is insufficient research to indicate...'
Actual crashes and their outcomes, are not anecdotal, so what has 'research' got to do with anything?
Vested interests, indeed.

[Ocean1]

One side of me thinks they are better for keeping people on there side of the road and the biker in me gives them a very wide berth as i know i would never what to try them out.
In fact i would not want to try any of them out.

I can understand that. However the arguement for me isn't WRB or nothing, it's WRB or concrete.

Statistiaclly irrelevant, but I can report that in at least one instance hitting a concrete barrier at the legal limit hurts. It didn't, however break anything other than a brake lever and mirror. Scratched some paint. Bit of a bruise. If that car had pulled out into me against anything with posts I have absolutely no doubt I'd be either dead or wish I was.

[Berries]

I wish some correct figures can be found in regards to who's hit what so we can see what impact these have made and also death/injury with each type.
Ask the MOT or NZTA national office. The crash database only records whether a guardrail was hit, not the type. To get that info each crash report has to be viewed, and you have to hope the cop wrote down something more than just "guardrail", but they have enough flunkeys to do that. Would only take them half a day.

It is a valid question, and one they should want to know the answer to themselves, if they don't already.