My response to the proposed strategy by MAG-NZ

[Tunahunter]

Thanks for this

Copy of an e-mail to MAG-NZ - responding to their mass circulation e-mail

I disagree with the strategy of riding to ACC offices and then to Nat Party offices - this would achieve nothing and be just a traffic mess - the best action would be to have another Bikhoi to the Parliament where all political parties would be invited to present speakers who would outline their policy statement on the three issues that you have raised - they would be expected to lay their views on the line or be booed off the stage. These statements could be recorded by you guys and presented to all NZ bikers as the voting options they have come November.

Cheers

[MSTRS]

I like that. But why single out bikers as voters? The issues affect all NZ motorists.

[CookMySock]

I disagree with the strategy of riding to ACC offices and then to Nat Party offices - this would achieve nothing and be just a traffic messUh huh.


the best action would be to have another Bikhoi to the Parliament where all political parties would be invited to present speakers who would outline their policy statement on the three issues that you have raised - they would be expected to lay their views on the line or be booed off the stage.aaaaand that will achieve what? :corn:

[Bald Eagle]

Uh huh.

aaaaand that will achieve what? :corn:

We could all have a really nice ride to Wellington for a latte. :sunny:

[Tunahunter]

Uh huh.

aaaaand that will achieve what? :corn:

It will give all KB 'ers an idea of the stance of the various political parties on these issues - and if they feel strongly enough about the various options, they (the KB'ers) can vote accordingly

[Maha]

Thanks for this

Copy of an e-mail to MAG-NZ - responding to their mass circulation e-mail

I disagree with the strategy of riding to ACC offices and then to Nat Party offices - this would achieve nothing and be just a traffic mess - the best action would be to have another Bikhoi to the Parliament where all political parties would be invited to present speakers who would outline their policy statement on the three issues that you have raised - they would be expected to lay their views on the line or be booed off the stage. These statements could be recorded by you guys and presented to all NZ bikers as the voting options they have come November.

Cheers

Hold your tounge Maha........:shutup:

[Tunahunter]

We could all have a really nice ride to Wellington for a latte. :sunny:

That would be Tickety boo

[Katman]

the best action would be to have another Bikhoi to the Parliament

That would work well for all Wellington and surrounding district motorcyclists.

It's quite another thing to motivate an entire country's worth of motorcyclists.

[Spearfish]

at least 10 characters.

[Tunahunter]

That would work well for all Wellington and surrounding district motorcyclists.

It's quite another thing to motivate an entire country's worth of motorcyclists.

Yes Katman, but the focus of political issues is in Wellington - that's where the cameras turn out for such events, that's where the mileage is to be made - and that's where the politicians are most of the time. Anything else but a concentrated hit, right in the guts will be diluted and meaningless

[Katman]

For any protest action to have a hope of achieving the desired results we first have to shore up our own side of the argument.

We have a long way to go in that respect.

[allycatz]

Was reading an Oz bike magazine and I see they have a National Fallen Bikers Day. Maybe we could have something similar in the main centres here, followed by static road car/ bike safety awareness displays (ie looking out for each other), inclusive police displays and ambos. Minutes silence and roll call for our past riders. Gotta be better than any militant action

[bogan]

Was reading an Oz bike magazine and I see they have a National Fallen Bikers Day. Maybe we could have something similar in the main centres here, followed by static road car/ bike safety awareness displays (ie looking out for each other), inclusive police displays and ambos. Minutes silence and roll call for our past riders. Gotta be better than any militant action

I reckon we could get behind that :yes: If you want to get the ball rolling on it, join up to the mag-nz forums and post away.

[wysper]

Was reading an Oz bike magazine and I see they have a National Fallen Bikers Day. Maybe we could have something similar in the main centres here, followed by static road car/ bike safety awareness displays (ie looking out for each other), inclusive police displays and ambos. Minutes silence and roll call for our past riders. Gotta be better than any militant action

Nice concept, but in this instance, wouldn't it just be used to fuel the anti bike thing.

Pollys going... look at all the bikers dying, and they will continue to die unless we do something to save them from themselves.

[allycatz]

Nice concept, but in this instance, wouldn't it just be used to fuel the anti bike thing.

Pollys going... look at all the bikers dying, and they will continue to die unless we do something to save them from themselves.

Isnt it about changing public misconception that we are masters of our own destiny? Police, ambos and ACC have some good static displays about ALL road users safety. The same driver that uses the "OOps I didnt see you there in my blind spot" is just as capable of putting themselves under a truck for the same mistake IE. not physically turning to look before a manouvre

Yes we would have to publicly accept culpabilty for our mistakes but its about getting other road users to accept theirs as well and more bikers go down as a result of their mistakes than ours

[baptist]

Was reading an Oz bike magazine and I see they have a National Fallen Bikers Day. Maybe we could have something similar in the main centres here, followed by static road car/ bike safety awareness displays (ie looking out for each other), inclusive police displays and ambos. Minutes silence and roll call for our past riders. Gotta be better than any militant action

good idea :yes: +1

[wysper]

Isnt it about changing public misconception that we are masters of our own destiny? Police, ambos and ACC have some good static displays about ALL road users safety. The same driver that uses the "OOps I didnt see you there in my blind spot" is just as capable of putting themselves under a truck for the same mistake IE. not physically turning to look before a manouvre

Yes we would have to publicly accept culpabilty for our mistakes but its about getting other road users to accept theirs as well and more bikers go down as a result of their mistakes than ours

What car driver would attend a motorcyclist 'roll of honour'?

[chasio]

It's a thought, but would it need lots of car drivers or just enough people to attract the media?

[allycatz]

What car driver would attend a motorcyclist 'roll of honour'?

You don't drive a car????

I'm thinking public bike display with charity collection....at the very least it would fit in with the new proposed rider education....essentially its a day for bikers but if it can reach further, then more than a few good people haven't died for bloody nothing

[Tunahunter]

For any protest action to have a hope of achieving the desired results we first have to shore up our own side of the argument.

We have a long way to go in that respect.

Yes - a well reasoned and coherent argument is essential but I still feel that the message needs to delivered at the Parliament in a forceful way that attracts attention. That was the main point of my post.

[Bald Eagle]

s - the best action would be to have another Bikhoi to the Parliament

Good luck with that :facepalm:

[CookMySock]

It will give all KB 'ers an idea of the stance of the various political parties on these issues - and if they feel strongly enough about the various options, they (the KB'ers) can vote accordinglyIs the margin small enough that we can swing it?

[wysper]

You don't drive a car????

I'm thinking public bike display with charity collection....at the very least it would fit in with the new proposed rider education....essentially its a day for bikers but if it can reach further, then more than a few good people haven't died for bloody nothing

Perhaps if it was tied in with a similar event from a car drivers point of view?
So the car drivers doing a similar thing.

I see your point, really I do, but unless the focus was widened I would feel you were essentially preaching to the converted.

[Maha]

Perhaps if it was tied in with a similar event from a car drivers point of view?
So the car drivers doing a similar thing.

I see your point, really I do, but unless the focus was widened I would feel you were essentially preaching to the converted.

1.2million cyclists in NZ...a few less as every year finishes.
Much like motorcyclists really.
Imagine the turn out to such an event with even 10% of the pedal power there.

[Tony W]

Had a lovely ride to and from Wellington on the weekend. Safely negotiated WRB along the coast; thought of all you people on KB while doing so. I must say WRB improve one's concentration.
The weather was bike perfect. A leisurely ride with some relaxing rest stops.
No problems with the law. No problems with fellow road users. No trouble with our main highways or our gravel back-roads. A totally enjoyable, yet unnecessary trip ... one of life's luxuries. :sunny:

...SO WTF ARE WE COMPLAINING ABOUT....AGAIN ? :crybaby::crybaby::crybaby:

[Fatt Max]

...SO WTF ARE WE COMPLAINING ABOUT....AGAIN ? :crybaby::crybaby::crybaby:

You never mentioned anything about a stop off at a pie cart

Sounds like a shite day out to me...

[Tony W]

You never mentioned anything about a stop off at a pie cart

Sounds like a shite day out to me...


....I got a pie at the gas station in Shannon.....does that count.....

aiso, bought a lotto ticket in Otaki....... but.......:violin::crybaby:

[BMWST?]

For any protest action to have a hope of achieving the desired results we first have to shore up our own side of the argument.

We have a long way to go in that respect.

that may be true but we need to do something very soon,and that will not preclude making inroads into issues of our own

[Conquiztador]

There was a time when there was momentum on "our" side. Sadly that time is now gone.

[Maha]

There was a time when there was momentum on "our" side. Sadly that time is now gone.

The momentum was lost soon after it was gained.
Sadly (and I sincerely mean this) the bikoi (like the WRB protest ride in Auckland) was a one hit wonder, never to be repeated. The once huge support for either is just not there anymore.The word acceptance comes to mind.

[oneofsix]

The momentum was lost soon after it was gained.
Sadly (and I sincerely mean this) the bikoi (like the WRB protest ride in Auckland) was a one hit wonder, never to be repeated. The once huge support for either is just not there anymore.The word acceptance comes to mind.

sadly a kind of kiwi thing. It like we collectively say we spoke up now lets not make a fuss, don't want to be tall poppies etc. Or to go with my avatar "you will be assimilated and must act as part of the hive".

[CookMySock]

There was a time when there was momentum on "our" side. Sadly that time is now gone.Sounds like we went backwards rather than forwards then. :corn:

[Maha]

sadly a kind of kiwi thing. It like we collectively say we spoke up now lets not make a fuss, don't want to be tall poppies etc. Or to go with my avatar "you will be assimilated and must act as part of the hive".

Seemd that way at the begining of 10' which is why a small but committed group started up the Auckland Action Group. We tried to keep the momentum up. There were a few stones around but not enough moss (if you know what I mean) As each event rolled around, the numbers that turned out got smaller. We needed some sort of formality, enter MAG.
If it weren't for the MAG committe turning up to each event they organised, numbers would have been pretty dismal to be honest.
I now think the members that joined MAG, thought that MAG were going to shove it up the establishment in good ole' Kiwi fashion, not so.
I certainly thought that was what it was all about. I was wrong.

Have a look at the Biker Rights forum on here, that will give you some idea of the 'who cares' anymore. Its the most non used forum on here.

[allycatz]

Seemd that way at the begining of 10' which is why a small but committed group started up the Auckland Action Group. We tried to keep the momentum up. There were a few stones around but not enough moss (if you know what I mean) As each event rolled around, the numbers that turned out got smaller. We needed some sort of formality, enter MAG.
If it weren't for the MAG committe turning up to each event they organised, numbers would have been pretty dismal to be honest.
I now think the members that joined MAG, thought that MAG were going to shove it up the establishment in good ole' Kiwi fashion, not so.
I certainly thought that was what it was all about. I was wrong.

Have a look at the Biker Rights forum on here, that will give you some idea of the 'who cares' anymore. Its the most non used forum on here.

Sadly 'apathy' can be one of the biggest dangers of them all

[MisterE]

Interesting read. From my perspective if we look at the actions that motorcyclists have taken in the past we have built up a head of steam really quickly and all run off to Wellington to vent our displeasure... and that's it. Right now, the powers that be know that all they have to do is wait a few weeks and it'll be yesterdays news.

Whatever we do next we need to understand that this is a marathon, not a sprint. I like the idea of a fallen bikers day as it puts us in the limelight regularly. We could get on the news and talk about all of the wonderful things that the NZ government has done for us to help improve safety.

In comparison, another bikoi is another sprint. We spend a day converging on Wellington, achieve five minutes of fame on telly and then go home.

+1 for fallen bikers day.

What other marathon actions could we take?

[Katman]

A 'fallen bikers day' would serve no purpose other than trying to make us feel better about ourselves.

The public would just see it as further reinforcement of the idea that motorcycles are dangerous and motorcyclists are temporary NZers.

We have to prove that motorcycles aren't dangerous.

[Tony W]

A 'fallen bikers day' would serve no purpose other than trying to make us feel better about ourselves.

The public would just see it as further reinforcement of the idea that motorcycles are dangerous and motorcyclists are temporary NZers.

We have to prove that motorcycles aren't dangerous.

You are a Legend ! :woohoo:

[Fatt Max]

A 'fallen bikers day' would serve no purpose other than trying to make us feel better about ourselves.

The public would just see it as further reinforcement of the idea that motorcycles are dangerous and motorcyclists are temporary NZers.

We have to prove that motorcycles aren't dangerous.

I agree with some of that however MAG as I know it promote safe and responsible riding and promote the ideal that we can all take personal responsibility to improve our riding and awareness skills (ie, great to know how to ride fast around the track, also great to know how to ride in urban conditions).

It is also the fact (albeit distorted by questionalble stats) that motorcyclists have accidents where the fault cannot be attributed to the rider. In some cases, this has resulted in the death of a motorcyclist.

Could, therefore, a 'Fallen Bikers' day promote the MAG ideals of

- Safe riding
- Training and upskilling
- Personal responsibility
- Bikers as equal road users and should be treated as such
- Accidents that can and do happen
- Flawed statistics giiving the wrong impression on motorcyclists.

Yes KM, we do have to take responsibility for ourselves, I totally agree. At the same time, should MAG use the 'negative perspective of 'fallen bikers' (not too sure on that title now) to promote thieir policies and action points???

Just me thinking, should be me drinking...

Peace xx

[Maha]

I agree with some of that however MAG as I know it promote safe and responsible riding and promote the ideal that we can all take personal responsibility to improve our riding and awareness skills (ie, great to know how to ride fast around the track, also great to know how to ride in urban conditions).

It is also the fact (albeit distorted by questionalble stats) that motorcyclists have accidents where the fault cannot be attributed to the rider. In some cases, this has resulted in the death of a motorcyclist.

Could, therefore, a 'Fallen Bikers' day promote the MAG ideals of

- Safe riding
- Training and upskilling
- Personal responsibility
- Bikers as equal road users and should be treated as such
- Accidents that can and do happen
- Flawed statistics giiving the wrong impression on motorcyclists.

Yes KM, we do have to take responsibility for ourselves, I totally agree. At the same time, should MAG use the 'negative perspective of 'fallen bikers' (not too sure on that title now) to promote thieir policies and action points???

Just me thinking, should be me drinking...

Peace xx

It could Mark yes...But there are those out there that still beleive that if you are gay you will die of Aids....if its a gay funeral, that person must have died of aids or at least an Aids related illness....do you get what I mean?
A Fallen Bikers Day will only serve to appease bikers.

[MSTRS]

I agree with some of that however MAG as I know it promote safe and responsible riding and promote the ideal that we can all take personal responsibility to improve our riding and awareness skills (ie, great to know how to ride fast around the track, also great to know how to ride in urban conditions).

It is also the fact (albeit distorted by questionalble stats) that motorcyclists have accidents where the fault cannot be attributed to the rider. In some cases, this has resulted in the death of a motorcyclist.

Could, therefore, a 'Fallen Bikers' day promote the MAG ideals of

- Safe riding
- Training and upskilling
- Personal responsibility
- Bikers as equal road users and should be treated as such
- Accidents that can and do happen
- Flawed statistics giiving the wrong impression on motorcyclists.

Yes KM, we do have to take responsibility for ourselves, I totally agree. At the same time, should MAG use the 'negative perspective of 'fallen bikers' (not too sure on that title now) to promote their policies and action points???

Just me thinking, should be me drinking...

Peace xx

Good boy, FM.
Actually, approx 40% of all m/c crashes are the fault of someone else, and a further 7-10% where fault lay with both parties. That leaves some 50% where fault lies with the rider. We need to work on improving that. The result of success there, will mean more aware riders who will then be better skilled to avoid some of the crashes where others are at fault.
Win - win.

[Conquiztador]

Good boy, FM.
Actually, approx 40% of all m/c crashes are the fault of someone else, and a further 7-10% where fault lay with both parties. That leaves some 50% where fault lies with the rider. We need to work on improving that. The result of success there, will mean more aware riders who will then be better skilled to avoid some of the crashes where others are at fault.
Win - win.

I know! Let's have a "Fallen Biker Day Where The Biker Was Killed by Someone Else" Day!!!

Maaan I am brilliant!!! :woohoo:

[Katman]

I know! Let's have a "Fallen Biker Day Where The Biker Was Killed by Someone Else" Day!!!

Maaan I am brilliant!!! :woohoo:

Sorry, those stats are worse than MSTRS's.

[allycatz]

Term Fallen Bikers was what I saw listed in Oz magazine, and maybe Memorial ride would be better suited. Would be interesting to see how past events have gone down in Oz being an annual thing, maybe one of our Oz members/observors could comment or maybe I'll get the magazine back and email the editor and ask some questions. I still think being seen as pro-active to our own safety is a good thing.

[bogan]

Term Fallen Bikers was what I saw listed in Oz magazine, and maybe Memorial ride would be better suited. Would be interesting to see how past events have gone down in Oz being an annual thing, maybe one of our Oz members/observors could comment or maybe I'll get the magazine back and email the editor and ask some questions. I still think being seen as pro-active to our own safety is a good thing.

I fully agree, such an event could be an eye opener for both riders and drivers, especially if the media doesn't put their own spin on it.

[Katman]

especially if the media doesn't put their own spin on it.

Good luck with that.

[Maha]

Good luck with that.

Exactly, it will be all about how many have died not how many survive.

= bad press.

[Berries]

A 'fallen bikers day' would serve no purpose other than trying to make us feel better about ourselves.

The public would just see it as further reinforcement of the idea that motorcycles are dangerous and motorcyclists are temporary NZers.
What he said.

[Conquiztador]

I do miss the "Anglo American Easter Memorial Run". Was the highlight of the year!

Bring it back I say!

[MSTRS]

Sorry, those stats are worse than MSTRS's.

Apologies if MOT's figures don't line up with the ones in your head...

[allycatz]

Exactly, it will be all about how many have died not how many survive.

= bad press.

Yeah, be a real bitch to discover we really do deserve to pay more in ACC levies :shutup:

[Katman]

Apologies if MOT's figures don't line up with the ones in your head...

They line up just fine John. MOT's stats say 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are the responsibility of the motorcyclist.

[MSTRS]

They line up just fine John. MOT's stats say 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are the responsibility of the motorcyclist.

Quite. But we're talking all cases. Injuries tend to cost ACC more than fatals, anyway.

[BMWST?]

They line up just fine John. MOT's stats say 75% of fatal motorcycle accidents are the responsibility of the motorcyclist.

So what?Do they not deserve some kind of memorial.They died doing what they loved ,they didnt go out and kill themselves on purpose,they would have been friends ,brothers,sisters etc.It can be a rallying point to ensure we DONT

[Blackbird]

Good boy, FM.
Actually, approx 40% of all m/c crashes are the fault of someone else, and a further 7-10% where fault lay with both parties. That leaves some 50% where fault lies with the rider. We need to work on improving that. The result of success there, will mean more aware riders who will then be better skilled to avoid some of the crashes where others are at fault.
Win - win.

I don't log onto KB much these days so I'm probably behind the 8 ball a bit but I'd like to pick up on MSTRS comments above which are bloody important.

Don't get me wrong, the increased ACC levies are nonsense because they do nothing to address the root cause of accidents. For that reason, a protest is worthwhile to keep the pressure on.

However, one sure-fire way of weakening the ACC case at the same time is to significantly reduce the accidents we're having. That comes back to personal accountability. I wonder just how many KB'ers have taken some form of 3rd party advanced roadcraft in (say) the last 18 months where situational awareness training is a key component of the course? Come to that, who has taken any type of safety course?

Sorry to be blunt but just whinging about ACC rates isn't actually going to solve the problem. Forget about other members of the motoring public and fix the one thing you can influence - yourself!

[Fatt Max]

I don't log onto KB much these days so I'm probably behind the 8 ball a bit but I'd like to pick up on MSTRS comments above which are bloody important.

Don't get me wrong, the increased ACC levies are nonsense because they do nothing to address the root cause of accidents. For that reason, a protest is worthwhile to keep the pressure on.

However, one sure-fire way of weakening the ACC case at the same time is to significantly reduce the accidents we're having. That comes back to personal accountability. I wonder just how many KB'ers have taken some form of 3rd party advanced roadcraft in (say) the last 18 months where situational awareness training is a key component of the course? Come to that, who has taken any type of safety course?

Sorry to be blunt but just whinging about ACC rates isn't actually going to solve the problem. Forget about other members of the motoring public and fix the one thing you can influence - yourself!

It took me a while to see this point of view but now I completely agree with it. Get out house in order then we can really push for protest.

Back on topic though (if I may be so bold), the MAG strategy is for members to contribute ideas for action etc and I support that ethic. MAG promote action on a personal level, thats a great thing, as long as personal action includes being a better rider then I cannot see any downside to that element of the MAG philosophy.

Support that I reckon, good for all of us in the long run

[Mom]

Sadly 'apathy' can be one of the biggest dangers of them all

That and political correctness. All well and good getting fired up about stuff, but getting out there and active is another story all together.


Could, therefore, a 'Fallen Bikers' day promote the MAG ideals of

- Safe riding
- Training and upskilling
- Personal responsibility
- Bikers as equal road users and should be treated as such
- Accidents that can and do happen
- Flawed statistics giiving the wrong impression on motorcyclists.



It could, but it would never be that. I personally would NEVER support a fallen biker day. I much prefer to grieve my losses privately, and not high light the reasons these people are no longer with me in some cases.


especially if the media doesn't put their own spin on it.

Never going to happen.

[Blackbird]

MAG promote action on a personal level, thats a great thing, as long as personal action includes being a better rider then I cannot see any downside to that element of the MAG philosophy.

Good for MAG for pushing personal accountability but I'm still prepared to bet that the majority of people attending a protest rally have done eff all to help themselves and if we got an honest response on a KB poll, the result would probably be the same. Until last Sunday, the last formal assessment of my skills (or lack, thereof) was an advanced course in 2003 which is bloody long and embarrassing interval. Finally put my money where my mouth was and started on the road to becoming an IAM Observer (instructor) and seeing just how good those IAM people are was a humbling experience. Something worthwhile to aim for.

[Tink]

I like the idea of private insurance over ACC. Personal registration not vehicle registration. I guess this has already been put through the shredder... but I can't read everything...

[allycatz]

Interestingly (is that a word), googled 'Fallen Bikers Day' and came up with a large number of ssuch rides world wide though. Reading through a few of them, one had changed name to ' Biker Awareness Day'....maybe a better option?