How safe are our lids?

[Coldkiwi]

Following on from the visibility through fear thread, here's some thoughts on open face vs full face helmets vs other full face lids

I have a girlfriend and a sister who are both radiographers that get to see guys who have skidded down the road on their face in open face lids... I'm assured it's messy.

My point is that a full face helmet probably offers twice the protection in your average accident than a half face lid and doesn't have the potential to break in two around the chin bar like a flip up lid might. 

To my knowledge the Snell safety tests only deal with impacts from above. I did a bit of a research project on helmet chin bars during my degree and discovered that this area is not one that is covered by any of the existing standards, so its up to helmet manufacturers to decide what to build. While all lids may be equal from above, there could well be some dramatic differences in the frontal impact performance.

When I did my research in 2000, the only helmet manufacturer that was obviously taking frontal impact seriously was Lazer who typically incorporate a steel core through the chin bar. I'm sure the other manufacturers consider it but I wonder how they gauge what is enough if no standard tells them?

[wari]

Well ... how about that ... by total fluke I have a lazer .

[wkid_one]

Try this - it is an interesting read.

The upshot - no helmet is going to protect you from every scenario - some will just perform better than others

[Motu]

Going back a few years,and I don't wanna resheach this - but they found the chin piece was levering the spinal cord off the old brain box in accidents...either way,so shear rivets were used on some helmets,mainly MX,still see some like that,but it was only a passing faze.Is this no longer a concern? design changes to stop this happening?

[ManDownUnder]

Originally posted by wkid_one
Try this - it is an interesting read.


The upshot - no helmet is going to protect you from every scenario - some will just perform better than others

Cheers wkid

SHITE - Page four, figures a and b... they give me the SHITS!

I had always thought of full face as being better (and consequently always worn one) but the sheer physics involved in getting your face ground off... at speed... down the road - BBBLLLUUURRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!

My first full face paid for itself the day I got a bumble bee "between the eyes" (excepting my visor was closed) at 130kph. The little bastard hit like a golf ball!

MDU

[What?]

Originally posted by Motu
Going back a few years,and I don't wanna resheach this - but they found the chin piece was levering the spinal cord off the old brain box in accidents...Is this no longer a concern? design changes to stop this happening?

You must be an old bugger like me to remember that, Motu!:p

Bell had a filthy name for this back when full-face lids were a very new thing. The problem was their helmets were too long at the back, so if the chin bar was pushed upwards, the back of the helmet would push on the lower neck and, well, you know...:(

Shoei in particular changed things by scalloping the rear profile of their helmets to prevent this very thing.

One thing rarely mentioned when trying a new hat on for size, is that you should stand up and look at the stars. You should not feel the helmet dig into your neck. If it does, don't buy it.

[Jackrat]

I have always been very relaxed in regardes helmets.
I prefer open face helmets,but when on the main highways I will normaly wear my full face,I have never really liked Vizors but I use them at times.I have been VERY lucky in the past.I had a big get off a few years ago that would of killed me but for the fact I was wearing a new fullface.That helmet cost me $800 and was at the time top doller,After I got home from hospital I looked at that lid,the back was smashed in,the front from center of chin around to the ear was worn to the foam.
I know a guy that along with his team do the testing on all helmets to enter the Australasian market.
He maintains that full faces are still neck snappers an has the research to prove it. As for me, I will just take my chances either way.Just try not to crash I guess.

[What?]

Originally posted by Jackrat
.Just try not to crash I guess.

 :niceone:

S'pose Wkid makes a good point - no one helmet will be perfect for every situation. I'm with you - go with what you feel good with.

[James Deuce]

Originally posted by Jackrat

I know a guy that along with his team do the testing on all helmets to enter the Australasian market.
He maintains that full faces are still neck snappers an has the research to prove it. As for me, I will just take my chances either way.Just try not to crash I guess.

And he'd be right. The head is held rigid within the helmet, and an accident where your jaw would normally break to spread the impact energy, instead passes that energy directly to your neck by moving your whole head backwards or sideways on your spinal column. This severs the spinal column at the cervical level and means that the "best" result that can be hoped for for the poor bugger who suffers this injury is tertraplegia a la Christopher Reeves. This is a classic instantly fatal neck break most times.

It's not leverage as such its just that the human body is designed to soak up impacts by being soft and squishy to spread energy, and by breaking the hard bits when soft bits don't soak up enough. This isn't verifiable, but the English doctor chappy who did the BBC telly programme on the Human Body said that we are only capable of dealing instantly with speeds that relate to a walking pace. Anything faster requries planning, and the body will be damaged in some way if you take a tumble. He said that if you stopped a Human body instantaneously at anything greater than a velocity of 12mph you'd die from organ and soft tissue damage. Thats why skin abrades and bones break to stop that from happening.

I'd still rather wear a full face. Got hit on the end of the nose by a bumble bee wearing an open face on a dirt bike once. I was only doing about 60km/h but endied up with a snozz the size of fair to middling potato. Given that force =massxacceleration 100km/h would one huge load more painful!

[Jackrat]

Yep, Them bubble bees sure do make quite an impression don,t they.Had an American mate on a ride one time,He was one of these helmet laws suck types.Swore there was no way he would ever wear a full face.
After he copped a bumble bee between the eyes at 100km He kind,a changed his mind,,,LOL, looked like he had a third eye after that. A couple of days later I showed him a HuHu bug,That really changed his tune.:D :D

[James Deuce]

Originally posted by Jackrat
A couple of days later I showed him a HuHu bug,That really changed his tune.:D :D

LMAO!

[STfella]

Having read the article posted by Wkid_one. I'd rather take my chances with a full face (or flip face). Mine has saved me from large flying insects, a glancing blow on the chin after a bird strike on the chest at significant speed. These instances, I'm sure would have led to or caused far more harm.

I like to use flip face because of the convenience of not having to take it off to speak with people when stopped.

[ManDownUnder]

Without belabouring the point - I had a fun experience riding through a swarm of bees. The damned thing looked like a "fuzzy cloud" till I got into it... the approach wa s asimple one...

HEAD DOWN ,HOLD YOUR BREATH AND GUN IT

I guess I would have been through the other side byt the time I'd put my head down - but hey - no bees on this face!

Full face helmets all the way.

Additionally - I currently own one of the Cirus brand helmets... I don't really like it too much - tha chin strap has an "easy click" lock o it. The lock is strong enough but the chin strap loosens over time - give me the old 2 ring system anyday

MDU

[bluninja]

Originally posted by Jim2
 Got hit on the end of the nose by a bumble bee wearing an open face on a dirt bike once. 

I didn't realise that they made open face helmets for bumble bees:D

BTW what sort of dirt bike was he riding? LMAO

I'm one of those minority (apparently) that have managed to scrape my chin piece in a crash. I'm happy to see gouges in the chin piece of my helmet rather than in my chin. For me a full face helmet gives best protection from the elements, stones, and soon to die flying organisms. BTW the BSI full face helmet standard tests for side impact as well as top. That was why BMW had to spend so much to get their flip up helmets to pass. Roof, made helmets with a detachable chin guard so that they could be passed as an open face.

TTFN

[James Deuce]

Originally posted by bluninja
I didn't realise that they made open face helmets for bumble bees:D

BTW what sort of dirt bike was he riding? LMAO


TTFN

Lol - Yes that was poorly constructed.

At least it got a laugh.

Bloody English teacher.

[bluninja]

How did you know I was english?:D

TTFN

[James Deuce]

Originally posted by bluninja
How did you know I was english?:D

TTFN


:argh:

[Big Dog]

I agree with most of the above sentiments.

My old flip face came with a booklet explaining how the locks on the sides were designed to disintegrate with a chin first impact (for the aforementioned absorbtion) but remain intact if a side impact. It included photos of before and after impacts from a sledge hammer in all five probable impact locations.

It also said if you expect your head to hit the ground do your best to tuck your chin into your chest.

But at the end of the day its all a crapshoot and none of the vendors is offering to sell you loaded dice.

[ManDownUnder]

Originally posted by Big Dog
I agree with most of the above sentiments.

My old flip face came with a booklet explaining how the locks on the sides were designed to disintegrate with a chin first impact (for the aforementioned absorbtion) but remain intact if a side impact. It included photos of before and after impacts from a sledge hammer in all five probable impact locations.

It also said if you expect your head to hit the ground do your best to tuck your chin into your chest.

But at the end of the day its all a crapshoot and none of the vendors is offering to sell you loaded dice.

Big D - dare I ask - what is the image on your profile - looks like a small blue jet engine :Offtopic:

[bikerboy]

Blu,
it was your propensity for pedantry that gave you away.:niceone:

[Big Dog]

Originally posted by ManDownUnder
Big D - dare I ask - what is the image on your profile - looks like a small blue jet engine :Offtopic:

A Jet powered snail.

Kind of like me, 105ps but still always the last one to the next stop.

[James Deuce]

Originally posted by bikerboy
Blu,
it was your propensity for pedantry that gave you away.:niceone:
O Bravo!!

Splendid effort.

[bluninja]

Thank goodness it wasn't my quirky sense of humour.:cool:

TTFN

[James Deuce]

Originally posted by bluninja
Thank goodness it wasn't my quirky sense of humour.:cool:

TTFN

We'd already figured THAT out due to your public admission of Italian Bike ownership.

[STfella]

Originally posted by bluninja
How did you know I was english?:D

TTFN

And... any pom knows anyone who uses TTFN is old enough to know who Jimmy Young is and therefore is also a silly old bugger.

[bluninja]

STfella. You've never watched the Tigger movie. Hoo hoo hoo hoo. TTFN

[James Deuce]

Originally posted by bluninja
STfella. You've never watched the Tigger movie. Hoo hoo hoo hoo. TTFN

We're a bit off topic here, but I have a 3 year old. Someone unspeakably evil being bought him the Tigger movie on DVD. I've watched it. And watched it. And watched it. And watched it.......:brick:

[ManDownUnder]

Originally posted by STfella
And... any pom knows anyone who uses TTFN is old enough to know who Jimmy Young is and therefore is also a silly old bugger.

Or the owner/reader/listener of Winnie the Pooh (Tigger says it).

 

Yes I have little kids!

 

Yes - I have to admit I enjoy WtP too

MDU

[bluninja]

A sort of link to come back to the subject and incorporate lid safety and kids.

In order to have protection, a kids lid has to be the same a a grown ups, and not much smaller either. So what damage does putting 1.3kgs on top of a kids head do to their still (comparitivly) weak neck? Does this increase the risk of neck injury in an accident?

Reason I'm asking is, just thinking about what age to take kids pillion (other than being able to hold on and reach the pegs stuff.

TTFN

[riffer]

The kids and me have a deal, once they are ten, they can get on the bike.

[LB]

Big Dog: thanks for the explanation re the jet powered snail. I hadn't been able to figure out what it was either.

I also like WtP - sometimes I think life gets taken a bit too seriously these days and flicking through some of the WtP books brings me back a bit of perspective.

Back to lids: I used to wear Bells for many years (how did our necks support all that weight???!!) but have had Shoeis for ages now. I am looking to get another one but I really don't like the new graphics. I've got "Myazaki" (sp?) graphics - also sometimes called "Ace" or "Trump" as there's playing cards on the side. The new graphics are very plain and I'm not that fussed on the colours. Arai graphics are okay, but the helmet doesn't quite suit my head shape as much as the Shoei. I'll probably go for a plain Shoei once I've seen the 2004 designs.