ABS v Non ABS

[rastuscat]

Good vid to watch

http://multivu.prnewswire.com/mnr/bmw/49653/

[DangerMice]

I might just get me some of those outrigger wheels, might make lane splitting a bit more challenging I guess.

But seriously, wow, that works incredibly well.

[Hitcher]

I want a set of those outriggers.

[98tls]

All good i guess,maybe they could come up with another name for all this safety shit,no doubt sensible but for an old motorcyclist like myself it sounds as inviting as "safe sex".

[ducatilover]

I want a set of those outriggers.

As do I. They look seriously fun!

[steve_t]

Oh man! So do I want outriggers or ABS on my next bike?

[bogan]

I want a set of those outriggers.

No way, did you see how often the bike lost control with them on? The one without looked way safer :whistle:

Front looked quite stuttery on the ABS runs, room for improvement perhaps?

[LBD]

I agree with the benefits of ABS as a rule, but I think this clip is an exaggeration in that any "competent" rider would ease on the front brakes gently in the wet rather than immediately lock up the front wheel to show the worst case scenario.

...then again mayb,e it aims to compare ABS with an incompetent rider...

[rastuscat]

I agree with the benefits of ABS as a rule, but I think this clip is an exaggeration in that any "competent" rider would ease on the front brakes gently in the wet rather than immediately lock up the front wheel to show the worst case scenario.

...then again mayb,e it aims to compare ABS with an incompetent rider...

Interesting. The assumption that someone can brake like an expert. You put the range of skills at expert or incompetent. Thing is, not everybody has the skills you purport to. I'd suggest that maybe 10% of riders are actually that skilled. Obviously including yourself, Oh Great One.

Of course, again, everyone will think they have the skills, until they actually have to prove they do. If you are that good, good on you, but most people greatly over-estimate their ability to ride.

IMHO.

[steve_t]

Interesting. The assumption that someone can brake like an expert. You put the range of skills at expert or incompetent. Thing is, not everybody has the skills you purport to. I'd suggest that maybe 10% of riders are actually that skilled. Obviously including yourself, Oh Great One.

Of course, again, everyone will think they have the skills, until they actually have to prove they do. If you are that good, good on you, but most people greatly over-estimate their ability to ride.

IMHO.

Yep. How many times do you hear of the scenario of a car pulling out from a side street and the rider panicking, grabbing a handful of front brake and either losing the front wheel or having to "lay her down". I'm all for ABS, TC, etc as long as they are able to be turned off IF the rider wants to

[ducatilover]

Of course, again, everyone will think they have the skills, until they actually have to prove they do. If you are that good, good on you, but most people greatly over-estimate their ability to ride.

IMHO.

I'd probably deck it emergency braking in the wet.... I have some bitchin' front end lock up problems under brakes on the CB :shutup: Every now and then the wooden brakes seem to work and the suspension doesn't like it....

[ducatilover]

Yep. How many times do you hear of the scenario of a car pulling out from a side street and the rider panicking, grabbing a handful of front brake and either losing the front wheel or having to "lay her down". I'm all for ABS, TC, etc as long as they are able to be turned off IF the rider wants to

Exactly, we all love to think we are awesome, but, I've almost dropped it in the wet :facepalm: Car pulls out, brakes go on, front starts to lock up/dive under, let brakes off and go around car... Lucky day.

[NordieBoy]

So the moral is: Don't lock up your front brakes in the wet?

[Big Dave]

Oh man! So do I want outriggers or ABS on my next bike?

You want ABS. The systems (even the linked ones) have no effect on the vehicle till an emergency. Then they are invaluable.

Safe sex - yeah - my spinal column wouldn't be as fucked up if my bike had ABS.

If it's available on the bike you are looking at - get the ABS.

It should be switchable for a dirt bike.

[bogan]

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/automotive/themes/two_wheelers/elektronische_bremssysteme_en.html I think that is what BMW uses now, not sure of the scale on those pressure control units, but reckon they would take some jiggering around to make em fit on a lot of bikes.

Get em small enough to mount under/behind the headlight bucket and you could sell a bunch of upgrade systems for older bikes I reckon.

[Edbear]

You want ABS. The systems (even the linked ones) have no effect on the vehicle till an emergency. Then they are invaluable.

Safe sex - yeah - my spinal column wouldn't be as fucked up if my bike had ABS.

If it's available on the bike you are looking at - get the ABS.

It should be switchable for a dirt bike.

Perzackery! While experts can often do as well, and racing drivers have shown they can beat ABS in some cicumtances, for most of us mortals, we need the help. I've never tested the ABS in our car, but appreciate it's there.

Over the years, ABS has proved itself time and again until it now should be compulsory for all vehicles. Of course the testosterone heroes will disagree and ego's will soar, but the fact remains, the technology does what it's designed to do and saves lives.

[ckai]

I watched that vid several times trying to see if the dude turns the bars to make the non-abs look worse (yes sceptic) but the bars get flicked...maybe...;)


Perzackery! While experts can often do as well, and racing drivers have shown they can beat ABS in some cicumtances, for most of us mortals, we need the help. I've never tested the ABS in our car, but appreciate it's there.

Over the years, ABS has proved itself time and again until it now should be compulsory for all vehicles. Of course the testosterone heroes will disagree and ego's will soar, but the fact remains, the technology does what it's designed to do and saves lives.

In the car, try braking with the inside wheels on a damp grass verge. You don't even need to brake hard, just decent. Quite cool how it keeps the car straight and only pulses the inside wheel. Mere mortals would kiss a fence without it. In saying that, I've done it a few times and thought the ABS acted too quickly but better too be safe and allow for all the gumballs out there.

There was an argument in a bike mag recently that said that will all these safety technologies sooner or later people get used to them and "allow" for then by driving/riding even more recklessly assuming the tech will save their asses. They quoted the safety belt stats as an example. Interesting really, I just think us humans need to have our brains rewired again.

[Gremlin]

There was an argument in a bike mag recently that said that will all these safety technologies sooner or later people get used to them and "allow" for then by driving/riding even more recklessly assuming the tech will save their asses.
What does happen (and I think it was a TV motoring show that did a quick test) is that people become incapable of driving without the aids. ie, not deliberately being an idiot, but cars have become so easy to drive, the drivers weren't able to drive a much older car, without power steering etc.

I haven't tested the front ABS yet, but I just about shat my pants when the rear brake lever started vibrating like mad for the first time. Happens quite easily on the back, when unloading the rear of the bike...

[Devil]

I haven't tested the front ABS yet, but I just about shat my pants when the rear brake lever started vibrating like mad for the first time. Happens quite easily on the back, when unloading the rear of the bike...

Wouldn't mind trying yours at some point. I dont get the vibration on mine, i'm assuming it's because mine is the servo assisted version and thats doing all the work.

[SPman]

but the fact remains, the technology does what it's designed to do and saves lives
Saves lives - bugger that!
What it saves is embarrassment! There's nothing worse than decking your bike in the wet (or dry) because mr brain went on holiday and you grabbed the brakes at an inopportune time in front of a bemused audience .....

[Edbear]

Saves lives - bugger that!
What it saves is embarrassment! There's nothing worse than decking your bike in the wet (or dry) because mr brain went on holiday and you grabbed the brakes at an inopportune time in front of a bemused audience .....

Like at a major Auckland intersection back in '76 on the old T500... :innocent:

[blackdog]

hate to sound like mr katman here but...

[Big Dave]

hate to sound like mr katman here but...

...then you'd be wrong too.

>Sound of sword entering scabbard, swings across ballroom on chandelier and exits stage right.<

[LBD]

Interesting. The assumption that someone can brake like an expert. You put the range of skills at expert or incompetent. Thing is, not everybody has the skills you purport to. I'd suggest that maybe 10% of riders are actually that skilled. Obviously including yourself, Oh Great One.

Of course, again, everyone will think they have the skills, until they actually have to prove they do. If you are that good, good on you, but most people greatly over-estimate their ability to ride.

IMHO.

Listen smartarse...I make no claims of my own ability....what I am saying is the non ABS braking in the clip is the worst possible scenario, ie: grab a handful and instantly lock up the front end....I doubt even you would be dumb enough to do that!

May be 10% are skilled enough to brake close to the ability of an ABS (I doubt any would better it)....but most of the other 90% will be wary of locking up the front, and their ability would fall between the two extremes....

[BMWST?]

Listen smartarse...I make no claims of my own ability....what I am saying is the non ABS braking in the clip is the worst possible scenario, ie: grab a handful and instantly lock up the front end....I doubt you would be dumb enough to do that!

May be 10% are skilled enough to brake close to the ability of an ABS (I doubt any would better it)....but most of the other 90% will will be wary of locking up the front, and their ability would fall between the two extremes....

but thats the point.When confronted with a real "panic" braking situation the reaction IS to grab a hand full of brake,and beleive me you will use more force than you would even in a situation where you are simulating a panic stop.The front brake on my ol gs is pretty average,and in the past i have practissed hard stopping and not locked the front wheel.But that exactly what i did the other day riding through town not paying attention.When i looked back the traffic had stopped,and i bottomed the front suspension and locked the front wheel in my first grab of the front brake.My "proper" self regained control and i backed off the pressure immediately,but if it had been wet or whatever i may have decked it.

[bsasuper]

Once you have a bike with ABS, you come to rely on it, and loose skill in feeling the tyre grip as on a non ABS machine.The dude is just grabbing a handfull of brake straight up, which is fine on the ABS bike, but I sure as hell dont brake like that on my non ABS bike in the wet.

[Big Dave]

Once you have a bike with ABS, you come to rely on it, and loose skill in feeling the tyre grip as on a non ABS machine.

I haven't watched the video, but I have been testing bikes with ABS for years.

No, you don't. It only makes a difference in an absolute emergency. When there's no time to think or feel or even skill level comes into it. Emergency situations do occur - fractions of a second when all you need to do is stop. Fast. Then ABS gives you a better chance of survival.

Otherwise it has no other effect on riding or mind set or what I rely on anyway.

[Gremlin]

Once you have a bike with ABS, you come to rely on it, and loose skill in feeling the tyre grip as on a non ABS machine.
Someone is welcome to provide me another bike to test on a corner locking the front wheel, but ABS is not a magical ability not to crash. The laws of physics still apply traction wise, but in low grip situations the ABS is there to try to prevent the wheels locking up. The feel of the road etc is still there.

[Hitcher]

The ABS on the GSX1250FA works. Nice to know but I don't want to have to use it again for a while, thank you very much.

[Big Dave]

on a corner locking the front wheel, but ABS is not a magical ability not to crash..

I prefer to see it as a system that prevents the vehicle operator over-applying the brakes - when they grab a handful under stress. Whether it's on a corner of not is really inconsequential. You can endo a modern bike quite easily in a straight line.

And some ABS systems do 'isolate' the lever.

My suggestion is that owners of bikes with the system find a suitable location and brake hard enough to engage it. Several times. Just so that they know what it feels like when it kicks in. Some do even bounce the lever. If you're in an emergency situation 'WTF Brakes?' is not a welcome addition to the thought process.

[Gremlin]

Agreed on the knowing how it feels. The R1200GSA definitely has feedback through the levers when the ABS is engaged.

The easiest way to get the ABS engaged is on gravel or semi-loose surfaces, as it takes a fair bit to get the ABS engaging in a way that you can easily feel it.

[Rhys]

Formula 1 band ABS in 1993 because drivers could brake later into corners!
If professional drivers get an advantage from ABS I am shore us ammeters will as well :scooter:

[NordieBoy]

If professional drivers get an advantage from ABS I am shore us ammeters will as well :scooter:

Speak for yourself. I sense some resistance.

[Big Dave]

Agreed on the knowing how it feels. The R1200GSA definitely has feedback through the levers when the ABS is engaged.


BMW's is the best system. Like Mr Devil said - servo assist or whatever that jargon is.

Some of the less sophisticated ones can have the ol' lever rockin'.

[Big Dave]

Speak for yourself. I sense some resistance.

New voodoo. I was well skeptical till it saved mah bacooon on a test bike and then I crashed mine not long after - when I probably wouldn't have if it was fitted.

[NordieBoy]

New voodoo. I was well skeptical till it saved mah bacooon on a test bike and then I crashed mine not long after - when I probably wouldn't have if it was fitted.

"ammeters", "resistance"...

Too subtle maybe :shutup::innocent:

[Big Dave]

"ammeters", "resistance"...

Too subtle maybe :shutup::innocent:

Sorry - wasn't paying enough attention.
Tigers 0 - Broncos 6

[YellowDog]

I haven't watched the video, but I have been testing bikes with ABS for years.

No, you don't. It only makes a difference in an absolute emergency. When there's no time to think or feel or even skill level comes into it. Emergency situations do occur - fractions of a second when all you need to do is stop. Fast. Then ABS gives you a better chance of survival.

Otherwise it has no other effect on riding or mind set or what I rely on anyway.

My bike has ABS. It was a wife imposed condition of getting a new bike. This limited my choice considerably. I always believed that I had my own in built ABS and was very good at stopping in the wet.

Like Big Dave says, it's only there for an emergency situation. My ABS has saved my arse twice in two unforseeable emergency situations in 3 years. Once would have been enough to change my mind about ABS.

When commenting over the death of a friend who was killed trying to avoid a certain crash; someone on here commented with words to the effect of "what are you supposed to do, centre punch the idiot pulling out". My riding experience says "YES" to that question as I believe it to be the safest option. One of the two incidents where ABS saved my arse was a car pulling directly into my path. I was doing IRO 80kph. My attempted centre puch manoeuvre was interrupted by me stopping about 80mm from the now stopped car. I was really angy, but managed to contain myself after relaising that the guy was really old and the fact that I was also going too fast.

The only drawback is that I am now a great deal more confident in the wet than I used to be, so I guess I do slightly rely on ABS as a safety net for wet riding, but I would see it as a personal failure if I felt the ABS cutting in as a result of my over confidence.

Don't forget, ABS won't stop you slipping sideways across the road into the path of another vehicle. If you push any bike beyond its limits for the conditions, ABS can't help you. It's the straight line emergency braking and the real slippy stuff at low speeds where ABS comes into its own. The wheels won't lock, so you can do some real fancy manoeuvres to get you out of trouble; even on misjudged corners where you need to use the back brake to lose speed.

My next bike will have ABS too :yes:

[Gremlin]

BMW's is the best system. Like Mr Devil said - servo assist or whatever that jargon is.

Some of the less sophisticated ones can have the ol' lever rockin'.
Mr Devil's servo assist is old hat. The problem was when you powered the bike off, you had bugger all braking. As he described it, you could pile into a garage door at 10kph. No idea on the specifics of the newer ones, but my brakes definitely work when the bike is off. Along with ABS, you also have linked front and rear for bias control.

[superman]

So ABS and Steering Dampers definitely something to look forward to? :yes:

[Gremlin]

So ABS and Steering Dampers definitely something to look forward to? :yes:
And traction control that is smart enough to know when you're in a wheelie situation and fix it for you...

And don't forget the electronic suspension, that you can adjust at the touch of a button, to suit 1 up, 1 up with luggage, or 2 up. Flick it to off road mode (small bumps or rougher terrain) and it will raise the ride height by a couple of inches.

It actually takes a little while to get to grips with all the adjustments :D

[Taz]

Drum brakes = poor mans ABS.

[NordieBoy]

Drum brakes = poor mans ABS.

I can lock them alright. They're a bit worn so it's either off or locked...
On the rear that it.

On the front they could be termed ASB...

[BMWST?]

Drum brakes = poor mans ABS.

you obviuosly havent had decent drum brakes then.My ol honda 175 had a tls front brake and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.They may be even worse at locking a front wheel in the wet as they have a self servo effect at lower speeds.The disadvantage with even the most powerful drum brakes are heat build up ,weight and cost.

[Big Dave]

And traction control that is smart enough to know when you're in a wheelie situation and fix it for you...

A

Henry told me you can dial the height of the wheelie into the new BMW traction control systems.

I wheelied the GS1200 with it engaged, not a very pleasant experience, it stutters the engine and put it back on the deck again promptly. Got reasonable altitude first though.

But re ABS - not sure what the current acronym is, but the latest BMW set up is the best system for rider feedback when it's engaged.

[MaxCannon]

I can tell you with absolute certainty it's saved me from at least one accident.

Usual story. Taxi not looking where he's going cuts right across my nose.
Road is streaming wet and slippery.
Massive handful of brake, lever is pulsing but I just keep pulling harder on it until I've dropped from 50kph to 5.
Taxi man then sees me and jumps on his anchors blocking almost the entire lane. Nice one champ.
I give him a rude look and steer around him.

Without ABS i'd have crashed.

[slowpoke]

Gotta love some of the reasons given on here for not liking ABS, bless your lil' cotton socks, but you peeples are good for a larf.

Went to a Brian Bernard training day a coupla years back and he did the emergency stop exercise. One run through of the several undertaken was enough to convince me of 2 things:
1, the average rider has little idea of how to truly hard brake let alone emergency brake, even when prepared.
2, the bikes/riders with the shortest stopping distances were all ABS/linked brake type BMW GS or Honda Pan-European things....every single time.

This was against a range of riders including experienced track day and club racers on much lighter machines. One of the ABS riders in particular obviously trusted it implicitly and didn't try to modulate what was already being modulated and his stopping distance on a 290kg tourer was just amazing.

On the flip side the number of experienced riders on pretty decent bikes who under "heavy" braking would hardly dive the front end whilst locking a rear brake for 20 or more metres was kinda disturbing.

If you aren't Andrew Stroud, Craig Shirriffs or Glen Williams don't kid yourself that you have got a hope in hell of ever beating ABS in any conditions. Even that is debatable with Karl Muggeridge winning the German Superbike Championship on an ABS equipped Fireblade and Choppa having a stellar year here on the ABS BMW.

[Gremlin]

Henry told me you can dial the height of the wheelie into the new BMW traction control systems.

I wheelied the GS1200 with it engaged, not a very pleasant experience, it stutters the engine and put it back on the deck again promptly. Got reasonable altitude first though.
Yeah, sorta. The traction control has 3 settings. On, it's intrusive under hard acceleration even on my big GSA. Sport (or off road, or something like that) it will give limited slip before cutting in. Off, and it's a normal bike. It's measuring the wheel speeds of front and rear, and comparing. Same sensors used for ABS.

On was very confusing when I took one for a test. Gassing it hard out of an intersection I felt the front start to lift, then it cut the power so I lurched forward (still holding the throttle), the ECU thought good, everything sweet now, and gave me back the power, only for the bike to lunge forward again and the ECU cut the power. Looked like a real muppet lolling around like a ragdoll.

My preference for the traction control would be sport, but it resets it on every start, and I just can't be bothered continually changing it. Bike must be stopped and in neutral to do so (along with most suspension changes and ABS). Realistically, its a good thing I guess, as it stops impromptu wheelies down streets whenever I feel like it... :innocent:

[Highlander]

I give him a rude look and steer around him.

Without ABS i'd have crashed.

That would have been one of those withering looks that other riders can see clearly even through the mirrored visor. :angry:

[NordieBoy]

you obviuosly havent had decent drum brakes then.My ol honda 175 had a tls front brake and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.They may be even worse at locking a front wheel in the wet as they have a self servo effect at lower speeds.The disadvantage with even the most powerful drum brakes are heat build up ,weight and cost.

Little bro's '74 TS400 is wearing a Suzi T500 TLS front hub. It's a huge monster of a thing and he's had to chamfer quite a bit of pad material away to make it work with some feedback.

The thing I like about discs is the same level of braking at the end of the cross country as the start. VS drums where you'd like the same level at the bottom of the hill as at the top.

[KoroJ]

.........I haven't tested the front ABS yet, but I just about shat my pants when the rear brake lever started vibrating like mad for the first time. Happens quite easily on the back, when unloading the rear of the bike...

You obviously need an ST. One can hear the buzz but the only feeling is lotsa stopping.



Listen smartarse...I make no claims of my own ability....what I am saying is the non ABS braking in the clip is the worst possible scenario, ie: grab a handful and instantly lock up the front end....I doubt even you would be dumb enough to do that!

May be 10% are skilled enough to brake close to the ability of an ABS (I doubt any would better it)....but most of the other 90% will be wary of locking up the front, and their ability would fall between the two extremes....

....Listen to the man that can ride 3000+Km in 40 hours...at a pace leisurly enough to stop to take 40+ photos along the way!

I agree, the clip is a farce and the fact that the non-ABS had the clip-ons says it all. They set out to lock it up and send it sideways. It would have been more realistic if they had stopped both bikes as quickly and safely as possible, then compare the distances.

Lets face it, if there is that much water on the road, one would have to be a total imbecile to plough into it, or through it at normal, dry, speed. I think the term is ride to the conditions.

Don't get me wrong though, my ABS & linked brakes have saved my bacon on several ocassions and I think they're great....but just because I have ABS I don't go slapping them on willy nilly. I still find myself carressing the rear and using a very light touch on the front when the road surface changes and the bod' goes into auto-pucker.

[Edbear]

You obviously need an ST. One can hear the buzz but the only feeling is lotsa stopping.

....Listen to the man that can ride 3000+Km in 40 hours...at a pace leisurly enough to stop to take 40+ photos along the way!

I agree, the clip is a farce and the fact that the non-ABS had the clip-ons says it all. They set out to lock it up and send it sideways. It would have been more realistic if they had stopped both bikes as quickly and safely as possible, then compare the distances.

Lets face it, if there is that much water on the road, one would have to be a total imbecile to plough into it, or through it at normal, dry, speed. I think the term is ride to the conditions.

Don't get me wrong though, my ABS & linked brakes have saved my bacon on several ocassions and I think they're great....but just because I have ABS I don't go slapping them on willy nilly. I still find myself carressing the rear and using a very light touch on the front when the road surface changes and the bod' goes into auto-pucker.

Are you suggesting that regardless, we should ride with our brains switched on and according to the road and weather conditions? Surely not...! :blink:

While in 40 years the only issue I've had was dropping the old T500 at the lights in Auckland back in '76 due to grabbing front brake to avoid a Cortina I thought wasn't going to stop and I was only just letting the clutch out to move off at the time... I have never had any issues where I was wishing for ABS as I always ride according to both the conditions and the bike. Ergo, with a single front disc and rear drum, I don't ride like I did on the GSX600F I had or any of the sports bikes I've ridden, and with long-life tyres, I don't pretend I can keep up with, say, a sports bike on sports rubber, either.

Certainly if I were to buy another bike and it had the option of ABS, I'd take it!

[riffer]

GWent to a Brian Bernard training day a coupla years back and he did the emergency stop exercise... the number of experienced riders on pretty decent bikes who under "heavy" braking would hardly dive the front end whilst locking a rear brake for 20 or more metres was kinda disturbing.

Exactly the same situation I discovered on a recent course with Andrew Templeton. I always thought I had pretty good brake control. Emergency braking tests proved to me that I have almost no back end control and will lock the rear every time, even though my front control is great.

The ABS bikes killed me every time by more than 20 metres at 100km/hr.

That's a BIG difference.

[jonbuoy]

Bike magazine did a test a few issues ago ABS on and off - none of the testers could stop quicker without ABS despite thinking they could and some wanting to prove they could.

[Slavvy]

I don't think stopping distance is the only issue here. It's also worth considering that if you lock the front wheel, you then have basically zero ability to manuever the bike. Abs preserves your ability to steer with some normality even while jamming on the brake, and that could easily mean the difference between a narrow miss and an ugly impact.

[jonbuoy]

True, but surprised a few people on the test. Maybe a GP rider doesn´t want/need it but ABS and traction control would be nice when I´m half asleep on the morning commute on the first rain shower of the year.

[Edbear]

After recent events on the road in our now sold Nissan Pulsar, I'm all for ABS! It saved both me and my wife on a couple of occasions from a nasty shunt. There is no way, in either situation that we'd have avoided a bang without it. Ok not life threatening situations but they were emergency braking moments in very slippery conditions.

In my wife's case, she was coming down a steep street and started slipping in the wet as she braked for the T-intersection at the bottom. She was scared of the shuddering and wondered what was wrong with the car. (We'd had it for 12 years so shows how we drive it as she'd never known what the ABS did before). I explained what was happening and that without ABS the car would have become an uncontrolled sled.

In my case, on the M/way, an idiot in an old Volvo wagon took exception to a 4x4 wanting to change lanes, swerved past him on the right hand verge and then slammed his brakes on in front of him! (The 4x4 driver had clearly indicated and begun merging with room to do so, the Volvo driver was just an arrogant sod and after he spent the next k or so weaving in and out of traffic like a twat I potted him.) Anyway, the 4x4 driver and I braked hard and was it not for ABS I reckon I'd have either rear-ended him or slid into the barrier.

Katman would no doubt correctly point out that both incidents were avoidable. In my wife's case, she was taken by surprise at how slippery the slope was, in mine I was automatically at fault being the following driver. However in both cases, we were driving acording to the conditions as we experienced them and the slipperiness of the roads were a surprise. Hence, even if you are being careful and observant, you can find the unexpected. The car was certainly up to the mark as the tyres were barely half worn if that and at the correct pressures.

So ABS every time for us!

[ducatilover]

ABS is nice isn't it Edbear?
My BMW's had face melting brakes and an ABS system you could barely feel. When demonstrating the brakes, quite a lot of my mates would get faint/dizzy after a 1(6)0kp/h to 0 stop :yes:
Never driven a Jappa with what I'd call reasonable brakes.

[Edbear]

ABS is nice isn't it Edbear?
My BMW's had face melting brakes and an ABS system you could barely feel. When demonstrating the brakes, quite a lot of my mates would get faint/dizzy after a 1(6)0kp/h to 0 stop :yes:
Never driven a Jappa with what I'd call reasonable brakes.

Back in the old days, we had drum brakes prone to fade, cart suspension and lower speeds and traffic numbers. We didn't usually venture out on the roads in the wet and we drove on cross-ply tyres.

The key advantage of ABS is in sudden emergencies in the wet or in adverse surface conditions, such as one wheel off the seal. I had never in my memory, needed the ABS before in the 12years we had the Pulsar so consider it like insurance. You may never use it, but if you do, it's far better to have it than not.

Nowadays we drive everywhere in all weather's at much higher speeds in very dense traffic, (with some very dense drivers...), and ABS should be mandatory for all new vehicles along with air-bags.

Some here insist that such measures are "dumbing down" the drivers but as a motorist/rider of over 40 years and very experienced with only ever one accident, I doubt I'd class it as dumbing myself down. These are practical and necessary safety features for the modern traffic scene. (Along with centre-line bumps to warn the unconscious they are veering out of their lane.)

[ducatilover]

Back in the old days, we had drum brakes prone to fade, cart suspension and lower speeds and traffic numbers. We didn't usually venture out on the roads in the wet and we drove on cross-ply tyres.

The key advantage of ABS is in sudden emergencies in the wet or in adverse surface conditions, such as one wheel off the seal. I had never in my memory, needed the ABS before in the 12years we had the Pulsar so consider it like insurance. You may never use it, but if you do, it's far better to have it than not.

Nowadays we drive everywhere in all weather's at much higher speeds in very dense traffic, (with some very dense drivers...), and ABS should be mandatory for all new vehicles along with air-bags.

Some here insist that such measures are "dumbing down" the drivers but as a motorist/rider of over 40 years and very experienced with only ever one accident, I doubt I'd class it as dumbing myself down. These are practical and necessary safety features for the modern traffic scene. (Along with centre-line bumps to warn the unconscious they are veering out of their lane.)
I agree, the ABS/TSC/TRC/EBD etcetera are not dumbing drivers down.
How many times do you activate any of these systems?
Can you retain control over the vehicle as well without the systems?

The answers are, not many (So we are all out of practice when it comes down to it) and no, 98% of us cannot control the vehicle as well as we think.

[Edbear]

I agree, the ABS/TSC/TRC/EBD etcetera are not dumbing drivers down.
How many times do you activate any of these systems?
Can you retain control over the vehicle as well without the systems?

The answers are, not many (So we are all out of practice when it comes down to it) and no, 98% of us cannot control the vehicle as well as we think.

Yup! As posters here have shown, in testing, even race drivers/riders cannot match ABS in emergency situations and it is precisely this that the safety features are intended for. They are unobtrusive in normal conditions. Consider them like a ballistic parachute on a small plane. You do everything to ensure the plane stays in the air, but if the engine fails or adverse weather strikes and damages the aircraft, it's better to parachute to the ground than plunge into it at high velocity, at least IMHO...

[ducatilover]

Yup! As posters here have shown, in testing, even race drivers/riders cannot match ABS in emergency situations and it is precisely this that the safety features are intended for. They are unobtrusive in normal conditions. Consider them like a ballistic parachute on a small plane. You do everything to ensure the plane stays in the air, but if the engine fails or adverse weather strikes and damages the aircraft, it's better to parachute to the ground than plunge into it at high velocity, at least IMHO...

Too right mate, too right.

Must spread legs...um, reputation before...yeah, you know. :blink: