NZ laws 'encourage criminals'

[SMOKEU]

An international law and order expert says successive New Zealand governments are to blame for the "scandal of the century" – a raft of offender-friendly legislation.

In his newly released book, Badlands, NZ: A Land Fit for Criminals, former English National Criminal Intelligence Service analyst David Fraser says politicians should look back on their actions with shame.

"The record of all governments in New Zealand since the 1950s in relation to crime prevention has been disastrous," Fraser writes.

"The fact is that all governments since then have gone out of their way to introduce policies that have encouraged criminals to become more criminal.

"Almost every piece of criminal justice legislation passed during the period has made it easier for judges to avoid sending criminals to prison, by expanding the number of non-custodial alternatives available to them.

"In addition, other acts of parliament, as well as procedural and administrative changes, have put numerous obstacles in the way of finding, arresting and convicting offenders."

Fraser spent 24 years working in the UK's Probation Service and visited New Zealand in 2007 to promote his first book, A Land Fit For Criminals: An Insider's View of Crime, Punishment and Justice in the UK.

He became concerned about the nature of offending in New Zealand, and has since spent the past three years researching crime rates and law and order changes.

He argues while politicians have overseen law changes that have been criminal-friendly, in too many cases they have shown scant concern for the wellbeing of the victims of their crimes.

He cited how in 2003 Prime Minister Helen Clark visited the family of a boy injured in a dog attack, and politicians promised to introduce tough new laws and give dog control officers greater powers. But he said the same response wasn't made towards the victims of serious crime.

"No minister visited the family of Lynne Baxter who, while out jogging, was murdered by being deliberately run down, repeatedly stabbed, and whose head was crushed with a concrete tile," he said.

"There was no similar ministerial response when Faletoi Kei, who was picnicking in the park with his family, was stabbed to death after offering food to his killer."

He was also highly critical of the justice system's stance towards young offenders, with more than half dealt with outside the formal court system. Fraser argues that policy was "one of the ingredients of New Zealand's burgeoning crime problem".
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"These criminal apprentices, the adult offenders of tomorrow, are helped and encouraged on their way by a system financed by the very public it victimises and then abandons," he said.

Fraser labelled as a myth claims from government and opposition MPs that New Zealand was tough on crime, especially when New Zealand has "the second-highest imprisonment rate in the western world".

Figures he has published show 15 European countries are tougher than New Zealand on the basis of how many people were imprisoned per 100,000 crimes recorded, and he said a British government document comparing imprisonment rates in 22 European countries, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, showed New Zealand was the "fifth most lenient" state.

Francis has dedicated Badlands to the "families bereaved by criminals, and all other victims of crime".

Badlands, NZ: A Land Fit for Criminals (Howling At The Moon Publishing), is on sale now.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4921693/NZ-laws-encourage-criminals

[scissorhands]

"Almost every piece of criminal justice legislation passed during the period has made it easier for judges to avoid sending criminals to prison, by expanding the number of non-custodial alternatives available to them.



I'm wary of this article. It implys if we locked up more crims, the situation would be better. But that is where young crims serve their apprenticeships, and career criminals compare notes.

[Smifffy]

I'm wary of this article. It implys if we locked up more crims, the situation would be better. But that is where young crims serve their apprenticeships, and career criminals compare notes.

Let 'em compare notes - just don't let 'em out.

[PrincessBandit]

I read the article with interest too and found it not too surprising that he commented on the comparative lack of support for victims of crime when held up against what consideration crims get.

Perhaps if jail was hard labour and no privileges then maybe people would be more apprehensive about ending up in there.

[Ocean1]

I note his distinction between our often quoted high imprisonment / population rate and the more accurate and far more telling imprisonment / crime rate.

We might well have disproportionally high prison population, but it's not as high as the crime rate suggests is should be.

[Brian d marge]

Read " five families a mexican case study"

then look at the laws that have been past that moved the wealth

Locking someone up is a failure of the society. But when they do get locked up it should be in a pink tent in the Arizona desert , with one false move and its more of the same

Stephen

[Ocean1]

What IS it with people that seem to believe that there's a quantity of "wealth" that needs to be shared out and that someone else has their share?

The societal failure here is that of allowing criminals the freedom to further prey on the innocent.

[Oblivion]

What IS it with people that seem to believe that there's a quantity of "wealth" that needs to be shared out and that someone else has their share?

The societal failure here is that of allowing criminals the freedom to further prey on the innocent.

This is why the 1900's were always the best for crime. There was a deterant towards crime and they treated you like shit when they caught you. ah the good, OLD days.

Nowadays its more about Victim support, and people saying "I'm mentally scarred, Pay me. Do it now :devil2:"

[Brian d marge]

What IS it with people that seem to believe that there's a quantity of "wealth" that needs to be shared out and that someone else has their share?

The societal failure here is that of allowing criminals the freedom to further prey on the innocent.

Because if you have all the cards ( money ) you can call the shots , and in an Egalitarian society SUCH as NZ IS stacking the game in your favour isn't cricket.

Do I need to explain? and don't try the hard work, individual responsibility approach , or even the trickle down,, because the results are right there in your refrigerator (How much for milk?? IN NZ ?? Go fonterra !!!)

Once a person HAS offended , then throw away the key , , but the level of offending is purely down to policy decisions starting around the mid sixties and is down to the community.

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

This is why the 1900's were always the best for crime. There was a deterant towards crime and they treated you like shit when they caught you. ah the good, OLD days.

Nowadays its more about Victim support, and people saying "I'm mentally scarred, Pay me. Do it now :devil2:"
In a the book about the history of Scotland yard, it concluded by saying the consequences were not the issue ( after all England had far tougher penalties than NZ , and the crime rate was just as high if not higher , Mary Watson? for the yard of cloth? )
The book concluded it was the CHANCE of being caught that was the deterrent.

Police on the beat, ( bicycles and lot of em ......) not revenue gathering to pay the mortgage off

Stephen

Ps I am a victim of the terminally stupid , wheres me money :woohoo:

http://lcjb.cjsonline.gov.uk/Cambridgeshire/1534.html

the pdf is from 1900 to today,,, I think clear changes in people behavior , that correspond to major economic, hence social pressures ( IMHO of course )237242

[Oblivion]

Because if you have all the cards ( money ) you can call the shots , and in an Egalitarian society SUCH as NZ IS stacking the game in your favour isn't cricket.

Do I need to explain? and don't try the hard work, individual responsibility approach , or even the trickle down,, because the results are right there in your refrigerator (How much for milk?? IN NZ ?? Go fonterra !!!)

Once a person HAS offended , then throw away the key , , but the level of offending is purely down to policy decisions starting around the mid sixties and is down to the community.

Stephen

But, it has always been about the most cost effective solution. I know, some people would say the same thing about certain Chinese products. "The cheaper they are the more likely they are to fail, and what not.

New Zealand is renowned for taking shortcuts, and sometimes it has taken a bad turn.

What we need to realize, well the Politicians need to realize is that the more expensive option can sometimes be cheaper/ more beneficial in the long run.

Not that the Grubbermint would know much about that would they?

[Ocean1]

Because

Oh, right. So it's the same people with more than their share of the wealth that fucked with the rules so that the poor people would be criminals?

Gocha.

[short-circuit]

Oh, right. So it's the same people with more than their share of the wealth that fucked with the rules so that the poor people would be criminals?

Gocha.

:facepalm: No - the crime is a by-product.

[Ocean1]

:facepalm: No - the crime is a by-product.

So we shouldn't blame crime on criminals?

This get's less entertaining all the time...

[Brian d marge]

Oh, right. So it's the same people with more than their share of the wealth that fucked with the rules so that the poor people would be criminals?

Gocha.
Actually yes

Try controlling the inflation rate by using unemployment ( thats going to cause a few social problems right there

try reducing the benefit to the basic nutritional rate THEN reducing that by 20 percent , ( thats going to hurt a few ,,,,)

Oh here one you might like

Try removing the "no fault" and replacing it with an insurance model ... ( oh thats gotta hurt ...500 bucks a year ....)

Got it now ...???

If you want evidence I have TONS of it

Stephen

Ps and to quote your ownself ( a lack of trained people are definatly heading towards the dole , and the who give a F, anymore .........)

It was. With some justification and much the same reason. The wee darlings all fucked off for a prolonged OE just when they began to be worth having around. To add insult to injury the bastards all went to work for the private sector when they eventually dragged their sorry arses back home. So the MOW, NZR, NZED et al said fukit, if privately owned industry wants 'em they can train them themselves.

Private industry immediately failed to train anyone, of course, we went 20 years with fuck all apprenticeships. When they were eventually driven by the lack of tradesmen to begrudgingly admit they had no choice but to contribute they decided that what they really wanted wasn't those old fashioned trades at all. No, they wanted "Maintenance and Diagnostics Technicians". It's the single most eloquent synopsys of the problem: by that stage industrial “HR” departments had no idea what the trades do, where they're most effectively employed.

[short-circuit]

Pretty simple really - If you are interested in living in a society where the crime rate is low, vote for policies that:
- Aim to create full employment
- Minimize poverty
- Reduce large disparities in wealth between people

[Spearfish]

Does any criminal in NZ know they have ever been punished ?

I think the punishment for some isn't ever a factor when engaging in criminal behaviour I also think its hard for the average New Zealander to comprehend that some criminals can rape/burgal/murder/assault someone just as easily and casually as the average NZ driver will do 60kph in a 50 zone.

[Spearfish]

Pretty simple really - If you are interested in living in a society where the crime rate is low, vote for policies that:
- Aim to create full employment
- Minimize poverty
- Reduce large disparities in wealth between people


That's a socialist insult to the right if self determination: "I'm poor so I must be lesser of a person and must be a criminal, I'm to stupid to do anything by myself so It MUST be handed to me".
You know that true because Sue Bradford was the founder of an unemployed workers union!!
The other side of the coin it generates guilt for those who have worked hard and achieved something for themselves, or those so called "Rich pricks" labeled as the doom of society by the previous government.

We have been telling to many people that shyt for to long.

Rather than cutting off the flowers to feed the weeds why not give people more chances and teach the skills and develop the confidence required for more expectation out of life for themselves?

I would suggest being poor has is as much a symptom as crime is. There are some wealthy wankers who are crims and some poor who hold up their communities.

[jazfender]

Pretty simple really - If you are interested in living in a society where the crime rate is low, vote for policies that:
- Aim to create full employment
- Minimize poverty
- Reduce large disparities in wealth between people

That doesn't take psychopaths into account.

[scissorhands]

That doesn't take psychopaths into account.

hello?

If those blaardy Tory bastards didnt dumb down the masses for cheap labour, didnt have immigration policy for cheap labour, never in the past took slaves from another continent, for cheap labour......we wouldnt be in this crime mess.


The problem is obviously cheap labour, or Torys, or immigration, or something else

I got a raw deal, so I'm looking for a steal

[mashman]

Pah. All people really want is money. Some will commit activities that are deemed illegal to get the stuff, both rich and poor. If you don't remove the money, crime rates will continue to rise, poverty will always exist and we'll keep looking for the magic bullet to all of societies ills. Funny, because some know what the magic bullet is... just seems that those in power can't figure it out... and they're our brightest :facepalm:... an 8 year old kid could run the country better than the current lot.

[SPman]

Egalitarian society SUCH as NZ How long since you've been in NZ????

[Winston001]

Pretty simple really - If you are interested in living in a society where the crime rate is low, vote for policies that:
- Aim to create full employment
- Minimize poverty
- Reduce large disparities in wealth between people

Aye but there's the rub. How does any government achieve that? The USSR tried, China tried, Cuba is still trying...

Economic theory says that there will always be 4% of any population which cannot work no matter how high tech or low tech. Some people are always on the margins.

Another economic study suggests that the 20th century is an historical anomaly when we had full employment. Over centuries, unemployment has been more normal than steady work.

I do agree we have to look at redistribution of wealth which isn't hard to achieve, but it has to be fair and not too harsh.

[Brian d marge]

How long since you've been in NZ????
it was the New Zealand that raised me , and it was /Is bloody good and Ill be damned if I will let the idiots destroy it

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Aye but there's the rub. How does any government achieve that? The USSR tried, China tried, Cuba is still trying...

Economic theory says that there will always be 4% of any population which cannot work no matter how high tech or low tech. Some people are always on the margins.

Another economic study suggests that the 20th century is an historical anomaly when we had full employment. Over centuries, unemployment has been more normal than steady work.

I do agree we have to look at redistribution of wealth which isn't hard to achieve, but it has to be fair and not too harsh.

New Zealand Had that ..for nearly 40 years after the war ... Slowly eroded by the consumer society and debt .

Never mind it will be back

Stephen

[Ocean1]

Actually yes


Ps and to quote your ownself ( a lack of trained people are definatly heading towards the dole , and the who give a F, anymore .........)

I didn’t attribute blame for that, did I? Let’s do it now eh? It’s caused by the same effect as the other issues you mentioned, the lack of a link between cost and benefit. If the apprentices of the time had to live on what they earned, (fuck all) while they were trained then they would have cost less to train and there’d be more of them. If private industry had paid for that training at it’s true value both in terms of the training itself and of the wages they paid for it then it wouldn’t be as thin on the ground as it is.

Manufacturers make the same mistake today, they believe they’re selling a product, a simple commodity. They’re selling knowledge, the skill required to manufacture, and there’s a disconnect between that skill and the income it generates.


Pretty simple really - If you are interested in living in a society where the crime rate is low, vote for policies that:
- Aim to create full employment
- Minimize poverty
- Reduce large disparities in wealth between people

Most generous. Hope you’ve got a fucking deep pocket.


New Zealand Had that ..for nearly 40 years after the war ... Slowly eroded by the consumer society and debt .

Never mind it will be back

Stephen

NZ had a workforce that’d just participated in an alternative to constructive employment. When you can offer an alternative as unattractive you’ll get the same understanding, dedication and productivity, and not until.

While I insist that prosperity absolutely requires hard work I will agree there’s a serious negative regarding the current business environment. There’s far too many effective monopolies. The objective seems to be far too focused on cornering a market rather than servicing it. I blame the Aussies.

[Genestho]

Regarding Badlands...

Have a read of this from Kim Workman on Monday:
http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/039international039-law-and-order-expert-unknown-within-criminal-justice-profess/5/88562

And then this from the publisher - Ian Wishart today: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1104/S00316/justice-system-in-denial-over-new-book.htm

[mashman]

Regarding Badlands...

Have a read of this from Kim Workman on Monday:
http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/039international039-law-and-order-expert-unknown-within-criminal-justice-profess/5/88562

And then this from the publisher - Ian Wishart today: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1104/S00316/justice-system-in-denial-over-new-book.htm

The Insider looking out and the outsider looking in. Heaven forbid that the outsider knows more about the inside than the insider :shit:... best try to discredit him quickly... just in case... I hope David responds to Kim... in fact it should be televised :shifty:

[Headbanger]

(How much for milk?? IN NZ ?? Go fonterra !!!)
Stephen

Cheaper then a pie. Its all good.