Can we learn from all the bike fatalities?

[rocketman1]

It is so sad to hear once again of a couple of biker deaths over the weekend. My sympathies go out to friends and families.
This got me thinking, we read of these accidents, but very rarely do we ever get told the reason for the accident.(just motorbike vs car etc etc)
So someone has died and know one has learned anything from it.
So its all likely to happen again, and again.

In the aircraft industry a full report is done into any air crash. Full details of everything, eventually, you can read these reports along with others to the betterment of all other aviators. ie Learn from their mistakes, sounds sad but its true.
Why cannot we do the same for motorcyclist.

I'm not into reading all the gory stuff , don't get me wrong I just think the police should make people fully aware of the reasons these accidents are happening.

[Berg]

There are TCR (Traffic Crash Reports) done for all crashes and a report does come from serious crash after a fatal but they do not normally get reported in the news. Usually by the time they are released the crash is old news and lets be honest here, it's easier for the news to villainies motor cyclists by not reporting on what actually happened.

[FJRider]

There are TCR (Traffic Crash Reports) done for all crashes and a report does come from serious crash after a fatal but they do not normally get reported in the news. Usually by the time they are released the crash is old news and lets be honest here, it's easier for the news to villainies motor cyclists by not reporting on what actually happened.

And (probable) causes ... and resulting actions ... of the vehicles involved ... are reported. Gory details are seldom if ever given ...

There was a TV series on the serious crash unit incidents ...some years ago ... and did include motorcycle accidents ...

[Motu]

KB policy - we are not allowed to discuse crashes,and so we learn nothing from them...apart from that someone died.And we aren't allowed to discuss that either.

[wysper]

Mankind does not learn from war, why should mankind learn from accidents?

[That looks like fun]

There are those who will learn without being taught :yes:
There are those who are taught but will not learn :facepalm:

I have a forming belief that we (motorcyclists) are growing into a victim mentality.
SMIDSY etc is spoken of at length. Katman rails on one side and gets shot at, on the other side...... well :blink:
I drive a car, people pull out in front of me :shutup:
I drive a effen big truck covered in parp parp horns and people pull out in front of me :shit:
So why am I surprised when they do it to me on my bike?

A piece of information I was given by a driving instructor (no not fat yogi, he was useless :facepalm:). The difference between a professional and a part time driver? The professional compensates for the lack of skills of others :love:

Should crash information be made available? yeah why not, it cant hurt :yes:
Will it change some peoples attitude? :corn:
Will it change the attitude of those that need to? Nah probably not

[JimO]

the big thing is there is no "we" because im not one of the we, im a good rider, its all those other cunts that need help/instruction/better skills. Every weekend there are pics on the news and in the papers of dumbshits that kill themselves or others, no one learns, its always some other cunts fault. Back in the 70s i had 3 mates killed on bikes, did it slow me down then?....no. Motorcyclist are individuals, they choose how fast to ride and what to wear. People die, sometimes its their fault sometimes it isnt, my best man dropped dead from a brain aneurism aged 39 in his kitchen in front of his kids. Another mate rode his rd350 at full noise into a truck aged 18 there is no learning people take risks because bad shit happens to other people

[JimO]

i rest my case.........http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137213-First-speeding-ticket

[Griffin]

I would actually be really interested to learn how many of the motorcycle accidents that happen are actually due to the fault of the rider (as in error / speed / stupidity / lack of exp etc) and how many are due to extraneous factors outside of the riders control.

I have no doubt that a fair percentage are rider caused... but what got me wondering was a few weeks ago, a mate of mine decided to go for a decent several day cruise on his new (to him) bike... he had only owned it for a few weeks so he did the diligent thing and got it serviced, including having the front tyre replaced.

All secure in the knowledge that he was riding a reasonable sized cruiser that had just been freshly given the once over by a certified bike mechanic... off he went.

Most of the journey was flawless... he had a great time... an hour and a half from getting home as he was riding along a stretch of SH1 at 100ks, when there was an almighty crash and he near lost control, as quickly and safely as he could he pulled over to the side of the road (where he was shortly met by a local who had heard the bike, then the crashing noise and assumed the worst) and got off to inspect what had happened. Most of the bike appeared normal... with the exception of the front wheel... which was minus its guard... this was located 100 meters back up the road.

Turns out the mechanic had refitted the guard but neglected to tighten the bolts... thus after several hours of road vibration each one slowly removed itself until the guard fell and got dragged under the front wheel. Luckily, nothing snagged and the bike was brought to a safe stop... but if this had have had a different ending... would the news have reported it as simply as "Motorcyclist loses control:...?

How many of us would have thought that they would need to inspect a qualified mechanics workmanship... How many of us would have been able to keep control of their bike in such a situation... How many of us are dying due to someone elses neglect...?

[Quasievil]

It is so sad to hear once again of a couple of biker deaths over the weekend. My sympathies go out to friends and families.
This got me thinking, we read of these accidents, but very rarely do we ever get told the reason for the accident.(just motorbike vs car etc etc)
So someone has died and know one has learned anything from it.
So its all likely to happen again, and again.

In the aircraft industry a full report is done into any air crash. Full details of everything, eventually, you can read these reports along with others to the betterment of all other aviators. ie Learn from their mistakes, sounds sad but its true.
Why cannot we do the same for motorcyclist.

I'm not into reading all the gory stuff , don't get me wrong I just think the police should make people fully aware of the reasons these accidents are happening.

I can give you a accurate report on the majority of Bike crashes........reports as follows

Stupid biker going to fast:yes:

Based on the fact that most are singe vehicle crashed on corners.

[Nasty]

KB policy - we are not allowed to discuse crashes,and so we learn nothing from them...apart from that someone died.And we aren't allowed to discuss that either.

you have been on here long enough to know the rules:



Discussion of accidents

Accident resulting in death or serious injury

Please show respect and consideration for the bikers, friends and family involved
Names and details are not to be discussed for 24 hours after the accident unless they are already public (in the media) or are posted by family, close friends or Moderators. When News sites publish details it is guaranteed that family and loved ones have been informed. It is the job of the Police to inform them, not this web site.
Should an accident result in deaths a RIP/Biker Down thread will be started once the names and details are public knowledge (in the media)
Should an accident result in major injuries a Biker Down thread will be started once the names and details are public knowledge (in the media)
A RIP/Biker Down thread is for condolences only; speculation and general discussion about the circumstances should be in a seperate thread

The site Administrators and Moderators reserve the right to remove a thread or posts
Any accident that happens at a public gathering is fair comment, subject to the above stipulations
Discussion of any accident not involving death or serious injury should be kept to a single thread. Respect for those involved should be shown at all times.
Fictitious or malicious speculation will be removed without notification and the person who posted the comments will be strongly censured


Also, the site was adjusted prior to Grubs death to allow the following:

Major Injury AccidentsEdit Value
Family/friend/media to break the news. Seperate discussion thread.

Fatal AccidentsEdit Value
Family/friend/media to break the news. Seperate discussion thread.

you can choose when you log in what options you want ... i.e. no discussion etc ... these are mine.

I want an accident discussed ... but not until after my family clears it and is allowed to make an announcement. Grub had the same settings.

The thing that you are using is the stupid speculation that is slammed down by the moderators ... and I expect that this will continue.

[scumdog]

Most ain't 'accidents' for what it's worth.

But that's another bun-fight.

What we CAN learn is that having the right of way won't save you etc, etc, - self preservation by treating all other road users as blind imbiciles might just save your life.:yes:

[DEATH_INC.]

This is always a sore point.
Personally I'd like to see discussion about them, but we all know there are too many on here that don't have the respect or compassion (these may not be the right words, Hitcher?, but I think most of ya know what I mean) to do so with any respect for the feelings of those involved or who's families/friends may be reading.

[Grahameeboy]

Most ain't 'accidents' for what it's worth.

But that's another bun-fight.

What we CAN learn is that having the right of way won't save you etc, etc, - self preservation by treating all other road users as blind imbiciles might just save your life.:yes:

Agree....fact that riders get killed should be enough to tell us to take care instead of human nature to know details..are we going to remember details when on road..probably not

[98tls]

It is so sad to hear once again of a couple of biker deaths over the weekend. My sympathies go out to friends and families.
This got me thinking, we read of these accidents, but very rarely do we ever get told the reason for the accident.(just motorbike vs car etc etc)
So someone has died and know one has learned anything from it.
So its all likely to happen again, and again.

In the aircraft industry a full report is done into any air crash. Full details of everything, eventually, you can read these reports along with others to the betterment of all other aviators. ie Learn from their mistakes, sounds sad but its true.
Why cannot we do the same for motorcyclist.

I'm not into reading all the gory stuff , don't get me wrong I just think the police should make people fully aware of the reasons these accidents are happening.

:facepalm:What the fuck does it take for people to stop posting this shit up:facepalm:In one post you have compared motorcyclists and accidents/air crashes/police should make people "aware of the reasons for these accidents". Your a cock,.if indeed you have a motorcycle step away from it.

[Blackbird]

I just think the police should make people fully aware of the reasons these accidents are happening.

As others have said, the major causes of motorcycle accidents are pretty well known and whilst you're clearly concerned, getting more detail probably isn't going to help you much at a personal level.

Have you taken any formal advanced roadcraft training in (say) the last 2 or 3 years? I'm not trying to be a smartarse or sounding like a cracked record but that's going to have a far bigger payoff for your personal safety than reading about accident causes.

[Berries]

but if this had have had a different ending... would the news have reported it as simply as "Motorcyclist loses control:...?
In a word, yes. And so would the crash report, although it would also say what contributed to that loss of control, like the mudguard.

The SCU reports can take several months to come out. I'm not sure what the status is of those reports but there are certainly some privacy issues that would need resolving. I don't see why someone cannot get hold of the summary/conclusion details though, they go way beyond the relatively simple TCR's. Would it help 'us' learn? I doubt it. There is rarely a single factor. It is usually a number of them that you'd normally get away with until they all combine at that critical moment. Shit happens, most of the time we get away with it, sometimes we don't.

[Motu]

you have been on here long enough to know the rules:


In my demise by motorcycle I want the case discussed in depth,and forbid RIP bullshit from those who haven't even met me.I want all facts,rumour and slander to be bandied about.The cause of my death will be entirely my own fault,and I own up to it now,but the how and why will need to be discussed - I hope there will be a lot to be learned.

My family never come to this site or even read or listen to news broadcasts - I doubt if faceless people on the internet slandering me will be of interest to them.

[James Deuce]

I know what I've learnt. That those who genuinely try to share their unpleasant experiences can expect to become objects of derision and scorn, subject to abuse from those they've never met and are never likely to.

You can also expect to become a pariah, unapproachable by the vast majority of those who once called themselves friend. In fact some friends can use your inability to socialise, drive, travel, concentrate for more than 10 minutes at a time that you're in fact unfit to be called friend.

Rather than congratulating you on getting your license back and being able to walk and relearning how to read and write, some "friends" just call you fat when they see you for the first time in a few years.

The most poignant lesson is that if you can't ride a bike due to physical and economic limitations you can expect to be largely ignored by the Kiwibiker "community".

There are always exceptions to be treasured, but they're generally people who don't stand on mountain tops waving their own flags. They just mow your lawn for you and ring to make sure you're OK. Thank goodness for those people.

[pete376403]

... it's easier for the news to villainies motor cyclists by not reporting on what actually happened.

The police will more often than not give a "...we suspect speed and alcohol were a factor" soundbite, so that gets accepted by the viewers as the cause, even if it wasn't. (and not just motorcyclists, this seems to be the standard for all crashes), except maybe this one http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/officers-injured-after-police-car-crash-4130431

[Spearfish]

Pilots have to be type rated for the planes they fly, they know the basics but still get trained in the idiosyncrasies of the new type.

A 125 AUTO scooter will see you pass a 6f test to prove you fit and capable to ride a R1 or faster.... kewl aye?

[Urano]

Why cannot we do the same for motorcyclist.

why, cannot we? (and with this ends my today's punctuation lesson :D :D )

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2864802/MAIDS%20Report%201.2-2nd%20September%202004.pdf

maids report from my dropbox.
it's one of the sources i'm using to develop a little safety project which has been in my mind for a while...



There are those who will learn without being taught :yes:
There are those who are taught but will not learn :facepalm:

[...]

Should crash information be made available? yeah why not, it cant hurt :yes:
Will it change some peoples attitude? :corn:
Will it change the attitude of those that need to? Nah probably not

huge truths.
:(


Most ain't 'accidents' for what it's worth.


right.
"impacts" is much more convenient...


Pilots have to be type rated for the planes they fly, they know the basics but still get trained in the idiosyncrasies of the new type.
A 125 AUTO scooter will see you pass a 6f test to prove you fit and capable to ride a R1 or faster.... kewl aye?

the issues about how to obtain a driving licenses are known and a major problem, at least here in italy.
but they overwhelm our single's possibilities...

[Nasty]

In my demise by motorcycle I want the case discussed in depth,and forbid RIP bullshit from those who haven't even met me.I want all facts,rumour and slander to be bandied about.The cause of my death will be entirely my own fault,and I own up to it now,but the how and why will need to be discussed - I hope there will be a lot to be learned.

My family never come to this site or even read or listen to news broadcasts - I doubt if faceless people on the internet slandering me will be of interest to them.

That is exactly the options that you haave choosen ... so I don't see the problem.

[YellowDog]

Perhaps he can publish his 'ride plan' ahead of each ride so as to aid the accuracy of our KB speculative post mortem.

Maybe a few notes about his mood might help too :yes:

[marty]

It is so sad to hear once again of a couple of biker deaths over the weekend. My sympathies go out to friends and families.
This got me thinking, we read of these accidents, but very rarely do we ever get told the reason for the accident.(just motorbike vs car etc etc)
So someone has died and know one has learned anything from it.
So its all likely to happen again, and again.

In the aircraft industry a full report is done into any air crash. Full details of everything, eventually, you can read these reports along with others to the betterment of all other aviators. ie Learn from their mistakes, sounds sad but its true.
Why cannot we do the same for motorcyclist.

I'm not into reading all the gory stuff , don't get me wrong I just think the police should make people fully aware of the reasons these accidents are happening.

The difference with investigating air crashes is that information about every part of the aeroplane, crew, training, maintenance, where parts came from, millions of $$$ of behind the scene compliance costs and licensing costs etc etc.

in an investigation, the historical nature of any and all of these things are taken into account.

it is the reason that a light aircraft engine starts at around $40000 to overhaul, and bits for planes are so expensive. It will never happen for the car industry - compliance costs are simply too high.

[Spearfish]

Perhaps he can publish his 'ride plan' ahead of each ride so as to aid the accuracy of our KB speculative post mortem.

Maybe a few notes about his mood might help too :yes:

You could be onto something there,
compulsory EPIRB or ELT to go with a high vis vest,
Log books should be filled in for hour based maintenance (WoF checks just don't go deep enough)
Min hours should have to be completed every month to keep your type rating.

I'll send the email with these recommendations off now.......:facepalm: we not only need a sarcastic smiley but an entering the realms of fantasy one as well, or is that the long on button?

[rocketman1]

:facepalm:What the fuck does it take for people to stop posting this shit up:facepalm:In one post you have compared motorcyclists and accidents/air crashes/police should make people "aware of the reasons for these accidents". Your a cock,.if indeed you have a motorcycle step away from it.

What a f-----d up attitude to life you have.
Try getting out the right side of the bed for once Cock

[Nasty]

It is so sad to hear once again of a couple of biker deaths over the weekend. My sympathies go out to friends and families.
This got me thinking, we read of these accidents, but very rarely do we ever get told the reason for the accident.(just motorbike vs car etc etc)
So someone has died and know one has learned anything from it.
So its all likely to happen again, and again.

In the aircraft industry a full report is done into any air crash. Full details of everything, eventually, you can read these reports along with others to the betterment of all other aviators. ie Learn from their mistakes, sounds sad but its true.
Why cannot we do the same for motorcyclist.

I'm not into reading all the gory stuff , don't get me wrong I just think the police should make people fully aware of the reasons these accidents are happening.

I am pretty sure that you can get coroners reports ... that is the sort of thing that happens in NZ with deaths in accidents etc ... bloody hard reading ...