Cornering - apex - explain?

[Winston001]

I've been riding for years. We used to have TV motoring shows where a rally driver would show a line drawn through a corner to illustrate the correct path. Then he'd take the nervous cameraman through a corner.

It all looked like common sense to me so this talk of apexing never made sense. Surely any driver/rider's brain automatically works out the apex because you have to know how sharp any corner is.

I haven't read Twisted Throttle but its on the list.

Anyway - what am I missing? Apart from corners :D. And yes, I've missed a couple over the years.

[Mental Trousers]

Apexing in the correct part of a corner is a safety issue as much as anything else. Apex too early and your exit can be dangerous. Also, the later you apex, the better vision you have through a corner and the more time and space you have to deal with anything on the road surface.

<center><img src="http://www.soundrider.com/images/Riding%20Skills/CorneringControl/early%20vs_late%20apex%2001.jpg" /></center>

[YellowDog]

Your chosen Apex quite often won't be what a track racer would choose.

These TV shows were they illustrate the best line with where to 'kiss' the Apex to get maximum benefit for a swift manoeuvre can be a good guide, but unless you're going to start racing, it's not terribly useful.

I have a mate who takes racing lines through all corners at slow speed.

He's a right dick :yes:

[bogan]

Apexing in the correct part of a corner is a safety issue as much as anything else. Apex too early and your exit can be dangerous. Also, the later you apex, the better vision you have through a corner and the more time and space you have to deal with anything on the road surface.

pretty much, picking the apex governs your cornering line, late apex may not be the fastest line, but it is the safest.

Not quite on topic, but I always notice people making the traffic island their apex at right hand turning lights, then flying across to the outside :facepalm:

[YellowDog]

Apexing in the correct part of a corner is a safety issue as much as anything else. Apex too early and your exit can be dangerous. Also, the later you apex, the better vision you have through a corner and the more time and space you have to deal with anything on the road surface.

<center><img src="http://www.soundrider.com/images/Riding%20Skills/CorneringControl/early%20vs_late%20apex%2001.jpg" /></center>

That is an excellent image. Thank you.

Many riders would simply follow the bend at a slower speed equidistant all the way around.

[BMWST?]

the "classic" apex is the point where the largest radius curve meets the edge of the road.
In the simplest way an s bend in the road and take the straight line through.The point where the straightest line clips the edge of the road is the apex.

[Motu]

It all looked like common sense to me

That's all you need,leave the over analysing to those who like to hang their tea towels straight and talk for hours about centrifugal force.

[Winston001]

Apexing in the correct part of a corner is a safety issue as much as anything else. Apex too early and your exit can be dangerous. Also, the later you apex, the better vision you have through a corner and the more time and space you have to deal with anything on the road surface.

<center>http://www.soundrider.com/images/Riding%20Skills/CorneringControl/early%20vs_late%20apex%2001.jpg</center>

By golly that was quick. :niceone:

That is an excellent diagram. Thankyou MT.

Points to Yellow Dog too - yes I realise racing lines are not necessarily open-road lines. Which is what used to bother me about the rally driver advice because it seemed to be wrong for the average driver with a family on board.

[The Stranger]

By golly that was quick. :niceone

That is an excellent diagram. Thankyou MT.

Points to Yellow Dog too - yes I realise racing lines are not necessarily open-road lines. Which is what used to bother me about the rally driver advice because it seemed to be wrong for the average driver with a family on board.

If you stay wide until you can see the exit is clear you will tend to naturally select the apex as per MT's diagram. If you do this it also often allows you to exit one bend already set up for a following bend (as in tight twisties) then your shit really starts to flow.

[Winston001]

Soo....thanks to years of reading KB I eventually changed to what I guess is a mix of Delayed and Early. It doesn't fit the lines exactly but works for me on the bike and in my vehicle.

My decades of habit was Delayed apex but that put me on/over the centre line at speed on the far side of the corner. Plus on the bike I wasn't then set up for the next bend of an S.

So now I drive wide entering the corner which gives much better vision ahead and a lot more road to play with. This isn't high-speed stuff just normal conservative driving but its easy on our roads to find tight corners so seeing ahead is very helpful.

It feels much better. Cheers.

[Berries]

<center><img src="http://www.soundrider.com/images/Riding%20Skills/CorneringControl/early%20vs_late%20apex%2001.jpg" /></center>
Probably best to try it on your own side of the road first though.

[Urano]

Surely any driver/rider's brain automatically works out the apex because you have to know how sharp any corner is.



this is the real point, after all.

the method that works best for me is looking at the speed of the lines' matching: you look at the road's edges and where they meet round the corner.
if the "meeting" moves fast, it's a large turn, if it stays almost fixed, that's a sharp one.
once you've figured out the radius, the you can figure out the position of the apex...

[Urano]

Probably best to try it on your own side of the road first though.

this is merely your fault... :laugh:

[MSTRS]

If you stay wide until you can see the exit is clear you will tend to naturally select the apex as per MT's diagram. If you do this it also often allows you to exit one bend already set up for a following bend (as in tight twisties) then your shit really starts to flow.

Get the initial line/s wrong, and something similar happens...:innocent:

Just where the apex is on the line you pick can be real important too. On righthanders, never place your wheels on/close to the line...where do you think your head is?

[oneofsix]

Get the initial line/s wrong, and something similar happens...:innocent:

Just where the apex is on the line you pick can be real important too. On righthanders, never place your wheels on/close to the line...where do you think your head is?

would the correct answer be 'in line with the caravan/truck body coming the other way' ? :woohoo:

[MSTRS]

I see you've played this game before.

[oneofsix]

I see you've played this game before.

actually it was a comment from a relative that had towed a caravan over the Rumataka's that I couldn't defend that woke me up this risk before I was stupid enough to put myself in line for decapitation. I can imagine what having to suddenly lift your head clear of the caravan does to your line and bike control.

[Devil]

That's all you need,leave the over analysing to those who like to hang their tea towels straight and talk for hours about centrifugal force.

That'd be centripetal, dolt. ;)

[CHOPPA]

Go and do the California Superbike School. It will help your riding immensely

[Tricia1000]

The "meeting" as mentioned below is known as the visual point, limit point, or vanishing point. By reading the way this point is moving, you can easily read how tight the corner is going to be.
However, I wouldn't suggest reading Twist of the Wrist, I would recommend reading Roadcraft.
It delivers explanations based on riding in road situations, not track situations.
this is the real point, after all.

the method that works best for me is looking at the speed of the lines' matching: you look at the road's edges and where they meet round the corner.
if the "meeting" moves fast, it's a large turn, if it stays almost fixed, that's a sharp one.
once you've figured out the radius, the you can figure out the position of the apex...

[MSTRS]

The "meeting" as mentioned below is known as the visual point, limit point, or vanishing point. By reading the way this point is moving, you can easily read how tight the corner is going to be.


A lot of riders (some quite experienced) don't seem to 'get' the vanishing point, if an earlier thread of mine is anything to go by.
Personally, I don't 'get' how it's possible to ride without using the technique.
The VP doesn't move as such - you do. But it's apparent distance in front of you changes, relative to your speed and how tight the corner is. If the VP is getting closer to you, then the corner is tightening. This is the vital information a rider needs to gauge whether they need to adjust their speed.

[Grubber]

Go and do the California Superbike School. It will help your riding immensely

I'd recomend this also. Been riding for a couple of (hundred) years and i learnt plenty from doing the Califoria Superbike School. Thumbs Up from me.:rockon:

[Mental Trousers]

Probably best to try it on your own side of the road first though.

Could've flipped the image, but then the words don't make any sense.

[george formby]

Soo....thanks to years of reading KB I eventually changed to what I guess is a mix of Delayed and Early. It doesn't fit the lines exactly but works for me on the bike and in my vehicle.

My decades of habit was Delayed apex but that put me on/over the centre line at speed on the far side of the corner. Plus on the bike I wasn't then set up for the next bend of an S.

So now I drive wide entering the corner which gives much better vision ahead and a lot more road to play with. This isn't high-speed stuff just normal conservative driving but its easy on our roads to find tight corners so seeing ahead is very helpful.

It feels much better. Cheers.

If you focus on observation as you approach & enter a corner, keeping to the left or right of your lane to maximise your view, it gives you a greater upright braking distance & a smoother transition from braking to leaning to accelerating through the apex when your vanishing point starts to move away from you. By the same token if the vanishing point is moving towards you as you enter the corner you have the space to increase your braking & slow down harder with the bike fairly upright. Either way, when you do tip into the corner you are turning away from potential hazards of on coming traffic or scenery.

If you can see through a corner or two before you get their I suggest knocking down a gear, cranking it over & giving it the herbs on exit. Aaaah, lubbly.:innocent:

IMHO:yes:

[Motu]

A lot of riders (some quite experienced) don't seem to 'get' the vanishing point,

That'd be me - I've tried to look for it,but it's a distraction,I'm doing other things in a corner,not looking for some mythical Holy Grail.Perhaps it's all subconscious...or at my speed totally irrelevant.To me the apex is set up by the entry,so I don't concern myself about where to apex,concentrating more on getting my entry right...then the rest of the corner falls into place.My style would be dirttrack/dirt - it's a late deep entry,tip over hard and fast,on the gas and out.My bike is set up for a lot of front end grip (rear tyre on the front) and works well this way.

[george formby]

That'd be me - I've tried to look for it,but it's a distraction,I'm doing other things in a corner,not looking for some mythical Holy Grail.Perhaps it's all subconscious...or at my speed totally irrelevant.To me the apex is set up by the entry,so I don't concern myself about where to apex,concentrating more on getting my entry right...then the rest of the corner falls into place.My style would be dirttrack/dirt - it's a late deep entry,tip over hard and fast,on the gas and out.My bike is set up for a lot of front end grip (rear tyre on the front) and works well this way.

:blink: The vanishing point is the extreme limit of your visibility. It dictates the speed you can safely enter a corner & be able to stop should a hazard appear at that limit. The better you are at reading your vanishing point the smoother you ride & potentially the higher your average speed without compromising safety.

Ironically the lines you end up riding often allow for a cornering style like yours, that's more or less how I ride too. Boxing off the first part of the corner but carrying more momentum through the apex & out of the corner.

[MSTRS]

That'd be me - I've tried to look for it,but it's a distraction,I'm doing other things in a corner,not looking for some mythical Holy Grail.Perhaps it's all subconscious...or at my speed totally irrelevant.To me the apex is set up by the entry,so I don't concern myself about where to apex,concentrating more on getting my entry right...then the rest of the corner falls into place.


None of that tells me that you don't use the VP to assist. Chances are, as an longtime rider, your subconscious recognises what's going on so allowing your conscious mind to concentrate on enjoying the flow.
Short of actually knowing the road, what other clue is there to tell you a corner needs to be dealt with in this way or that?

[The Stranger]

So now I drive wide entering the corner which gives much better vision ahead and a lot more road to play with. This isn't high-speed stuff just normal conservative driving but its easy on our roads to find tight corners so seeing ahead is very helpful.

It feels much better. Cheers.

Another good reason for staying wide until you can see your exit is clear can be seen on the attached image.

I have seen it dozens of times on this bend, a bike travelling left to right enters from LHS of lane goes over the centre line on exit OR enters from RHS of lane and apexes mid corner goes over the centre line on exit.

[Motu]

Short of actually knowing the road, what other clue is there to tell you a corner needs to be dealt with in this way or that?

Oh boy,if the Vanishing Point is the only card you've got to play,you sure aren't stacking the deck in your favour.There are a shit load of clues to tell you how a corner needs to be dealt with.

[stormerUK]

The correct entry position/line for a (road) bend is the one that enables maximum vision through the bend which will be well to the left on a RH bend and road centre on a LH bend. It's seeing what's coming and where the road goes next that matters. Hence if you can't stop safely in that parameter then bang!

[PrincessBandit]

And it's all about judgement, and that is not always best learnt at speed.
Picking lines is primarily about safety, not how fast you can get through the corner (although a nice bonus for those who like to work their machine in tune with the road). It takes time and patience developing the skill - of which I am quietly working away at - and always keeping "the unexpected" uppermost in your mind. As someone else just said, vision is the most important thing - a beautiful line can still turn to crap if there is an unexpected obstacle. This is probably more pertinent to corners that are well-known and ridden frequently where attention to detail can take a back seat to the feeling of exhilaration...

[MSTRS]

Oh boy,if the Vanishing Point is the only card you've got to play,you sure aren't stacking the deck in your favour.There are a shit load of clues to tell you how a corner needs to be dealt with.

I know there is, and they all have a part to play in how we approach, negotiate and exit a corner. But unlike a row of telephone poles, fencelines, surface camber, speed advisory signs or chevrons for instance, the VP is a constant presence. And it doesn't take shortcuts.

[MSTRS]

Another good reason for staying wide until you can see your exit is clear can be seen on the attached image.

I have seen it dozens of times on this bend, a bike travelling left to right enters from LHS of lane goes over the centre line on exit OR enters from RHS of lane and apexes mid corner goes over the centre line on exit.

This is another. Colloquially known as Yungatart's Corner. As you travel right to left, it not only tightens, but the gradient steepens dramatically mid-corner.
http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=-38.480869,175.236912&spn=0.00147,0.00228&z=18&source=embed

[Motu]

the VP is a constant presence.

It's an effect,not a cause - primary clues first,call in secondary as they are needed.

[davebullet]

And it's all about judgement.

Another judgemental biker :laugh:

[george formby]

This is another. Colloquially known as Yungatart's Corner. As you travel right to left, it not only tightens, but the gradient steepens dramatically mid-corner.
http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=-38.480869,175.236912&spn=0.00147,0.00228&z=18&source=embed

Now that looks like a corner which screams out to watch the vanishing point on entry & a fair degree of confidence to ride smoothly. Could almost be the Managamukas but I can't see any logging trucks.

[MSTRS]

It's an effect,not a cause - primary clues first,call in secondary as they are needed.

And I would still argue that it can always been relied on, because it is always there. Whereas other clues are not always present and when they are, they may not be reliable.
Still, if we've been riding for yonks and never (or seldom) have a problem with corners, then whatever 'system' we use is right for us individually.

[MSTRS]

Now that looks like a corner which screams out to watch the vanishing point on entry & a fair degree of confidence to ride smoothly. Could almost be the Managamukas but I can't see any logging trucks.

It's a minor link road between HW30 and HW4, inland from Te Kuiti.
Check out this shot from ground level. As you come into the corner top right, the ground is level and you are already cornering. Right where it tightens is where the gradient changes. You are unlikely to find a worse corner anywhere.

[oneofsix]

It's a minor link road between HW30 and HW4, inland from Te Kuiti.
Check out this shot from ground level. As you come into the corner top right, the ground is level and you are already cornering. Right where it tightens is where the gradient changes. You are unlikely to find a worse corner anywhere.

That corner seems to give a false vanishing point. I think I would still be slowing down because I can't see whats beyond the gradient change. Is this your point?

[george formby]

And I would still argue that it can always been relied on, because it is always there. Whereas other clues are not always present and when they are, they may not be reliable.
Still, if we've been riding for yonks and never (or seldom) have a problem with corners, then whatever 'system' we use is right for us individually.

I have seen a a rider go straight into a field using telegraph poles to read the road ahead. Dirty but no damage.

I think as time goes by the clues we take in to indicate what is ahead increases but the final decisions still happen at the corner. I should imagine the corner on google maps is visible on approach & looking well ahead, it's form would be visible long before you get to it.
Well, maybe. Depending on the trees etc.

[george formby]

That corner seems to give a false vanishing point. I think I would still be slowing down because I can't see whats beyond the gradient change. Is this your point?

Definitely a case of slow in me thinks.

[oneofsix]

I have seen a a rider go straight into a field using telegraph poles to read the road ahead. Dirty but no damage.

I think as time goes by the clues we take in to indicate what is ahead increases but the final decisions still happen at the corner. I should imagine the corner on google maps is visible on approach & looking well ahead, it's form would be visible long before you get to it.
Well, maybe. Depending on the trees etc.

I remember when the road marker posts on the outside of a corner were spaced so as to indicate the safe cornering speed. Pity this is still not consistently done as it would provide one more clue.

[george formby]

I remember when the road marker posts on the outside of a corner were spaced so as to indicate the safe cornering speed. Pity this is still not consistently done as it would provide one more clue.

I've noticed that too. I use the reflective markers at night, they reflect well ahead of the headlight throw.

[MSTRS]

That corner seems to give a false vanishing point. I think I would still be slowing down because I can't see whats beyond the gradient change. Is this your point?
Partly. Using the VP to assist with determining a speed that allows safe negotiation of a corner is complicated by a gradient change that reduces the visible clear road. Exacerbated in this particular case by a bank on the left that blocks any view of what is up ahead, and by a steep downhill reducing the effectiveness of your brakes. Couple that with all the motorists that went before, whose own panic braking has scrubbed the chip smooth...well....:shit:


I have seen a a rider go straight into a field using telegraph poles to read the road ahead.
Exactly.


I remember when the road marker posts on the outside of a corner were spaced so as to indicate the safe cornering speed. Pity this is still not consistently done as it would provide one more clue.
I never knew that. Just that the reflectors are yellow.

Basically, this side conversation to the thread topic only supports the importance of approaching a corner as wide as possible, to allow maximum view into that corner and what it might present.

[Motu]

And I would still argue that it can always been relied on, because it is always there.

By the time it's noticed the VP is telling you your speed is too fast for the corner - you have cocked up long before that,and now a wide exit is the result.In a blind corner on a road you have never travelled before,the VP is the last
thing you should be relying on - it doesn't tell you there is a driveway,wandering stock,a slip,a tourist on the wrong side of the road...the list goes on.Sorry,but the Vanishing Point is a long way down on the list of things telling me how to approach a corner.

[MSTRS]

By the time it's noticed the VP is telling you your speed is too fast for the corner - you have cocked up long before that,and now a wide exit is the result.In a blind corner on a road you have never travelled before,the VP is the last
thing you should be relying on - it doesn't tell you there is a driveway,wandering stock,a slip,a tourist on the wrong side of the road...the list goes on.Sorry,but the Vanishing Point is a long way down on the list of things telling me how to approach a corner.

No, it doesn't. But they don't tell me they are there either, until they come into view.
Whereas I can see the VP waaaay up ahead, and when it 'gets closer' I know that I maybe need to slow down to a speed that allows me to stop in the shortened amount of road I can still see.. If I ignore the VP until I'm in the corner, then if I survive, I should hang up my boots and helmet.

[george formby]

No, it doesn't. But they don't tell me they are there either, until they come into view.
Whereas I can see the VP waaaay up ahead, and when it 'gets closer' I know that I maybe need to slow down to a speed that allows me to stop in the shortened amount of road I can still see.. If I ignore the VP until I'm in the corner, then if I survive, I should hang up my boots and helmet.

Yup. Every hazard is always between the VP & the bike so, for me anyway, it dictates whether I am braking or accelerating. The VP gives me the length of road I have to play with. I guess by choosing a lane position which keeps the VP at the maximum distance away from you, you increase the time & space you have to react when hazards present themselves.
Using ALL the sensory information available & giving each piece relevant weight at that moment, I believe, should be all riders goal. Whether it's for safety, economy or plain old twisting the throttle open.

[Motu]

But they don't tell me they are there either, until they come into view.

Duh - you wait until they come into view? It all sounds like you have no plan,you are just reacting to what you see.You need to be ready before danger comes into view.

[MSTRS]

Duh - you wait until they come into view? It all sounds like you have no plan,you are just reacting to what you see.You need to be ready before danger comes into view.

You being deliberately obtuse? I'm scanning for hints and clues all the time. What I don't see is what is likely to kill me. And what I see, or can guess at from the clues, means I can factor in and adjust for, before I have to react. Subtle difference, but very important. I'm no newbie focussing 10 feet in front of me. Nor do I suffer from tunnel vision.
But still, I'm not so far up my own arse that I can't understand that none of us are immune to being caught out by something we didn't see with time to react.

[Metastable]

If you stay wide until you can SEE the exit is clear you will tend to naturally select the apex as per MT's diagram.

Exactly, this is especially important in a blind corner.

[george formby]

Exactly, this is especially important in a blind corner.

I like it. So, the apex is what you aim for as your exiting the corner on a public road. Prior to exiting you stay in the safest & most visible part of your lane until you can see your way out.

Noice.:yes:

[MSTRS]

I like it. So, the apex is what you aim for as your exiting the corner on a public road. Prior to exiting you stay in the safest & most visible part of your lane until you can see your way out.



I think as you tip in to the corner, you aim for the best exit point on the road. Midway between those 2 points, the apex is simply the nearest point you get to the edge of your lane.
That's as I understand apexes.

[george formby]

I think as you tip in to the corner, you aim for the best exit point on the road. Midway between those 2 points, the apex is simply the nearest point you get to the edge of your lane.
That's as I understand apexes.

Ditto. The strangers & metastables posts got me thinking that on a public road opposed to a track you only hit an apex on exit rather than have "proper" double apexes like a circuit. Staying out of trouble is the biggest consideration on the venerable highway.

[Motu]

I'm scanning for hints and clues all the time. What I don't see is what is likely to kill me. And what I see, or can guess at from the clues, means I can factor in and adjust for, before I have to react. Subtle difference, but very important.

OK,now we are finally getting somewhere.You are supposed to be a mentor,teaching riders good habits - this is where you need to start,not dribbling off into ''Vanishing Points'',the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

[george formby]

OK,now we are finally getting somewhere.You are supposed to be a mentor,teaching riders good habits - this is where you need to start,not dribbling off into ''Vanishing Points'',the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

Fair call from an instruction perspective.

When I learned to ride (belt driven Excelsior) the vanishing point came straight away & the subtleties of good road craft were fitted into that space.

It was presented to me as looking as far ahead as possible at all times with the VP demonstrating the limit of my bit of road. I guess with training it's not what you start with but just getting started.

I have never thought of the VP being as being advanced.

[MSTRS]

OK,now we are finally getting somewhere.You are supposed to be a mentor,teaching riders good habits - this is where you need to start,not dribbling off into ''Vanishing Points'',the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

I never said the VP was the only important factor. But I will maintain it is THE most important of everything a rider needs to consider when on a road with semi-obscured corners.
Here's a trick question for you...
Having scanned and noted all the clues, you tip in to the first lovely, sweeping corner of a set of three. What's the last thing that goes through your mind as you set up for the second?

[davebullet]

Having scanned and noted all the clues, you tip in to the first lovely, sweeping corner of a set of three. What's the last thing that goes through your mind as you set up for the second?

"I should have gone to the toilet at the last stop"

[MSTRS]

"I should have gone to the toilet at the last stop"

I did say it was a trick question. Perhaps I should have said 'brain' instead of 'mind'.
Did you see that blackbird/sparrow/whatever that shot out of the bush on your left at head height?
My point is to illustrate what I said in post 49. We can use all our senses and experience, but there's always something we miss that'll catch us out. Just don't let that something be as simple as failing to register a tightening radius curve.

[Motu]

I never said the VP was the only important factor.

This is what you've been implying all the time,I've just been pulling you up on it.Now you admit it's not the most important.And it's certainly nowhere in my sights for an obscured and unknown corner...in such a case the VP is well into the range of safety,not even worth thinking about.

[nadroj]

Same corner from the opposite direction (after the speed sign was erected).

[MSTRS]

This is what you've been implying all the time,I've just been pulling you up on it.Now you admit it's not the most important.And it's certainly nowhere in my sights for an obscured and unknown corner...in such a case the VP is well into the range of safety,not even worth thinking about.

Did you miss this bit?

But I will maintain it is THE most important of everything a rider needs to consider when on a road with semi-obscured corners.

Of course, it's importance diminishes as your speed drops. IF your speed was ever such that it was important in the first place.

We're nitpicking over a minor detail....there are any number of things we can and do use to help us safely negotiate a road. If I were to put them on a list in order of importance, one would be at the top. That one would be the VP (ie that point where I cannot see the road anymore). Obviously your list would be in a different order.
Either way, we would both adjust our speed to allow for the visible distance available in which to stop or otherwise respond to (most) other threats.

[MSTRS]

Same corner from the opposite direction (after the speed sign was erected).

Your photos capture the gradient way better than mine. :niceone:
Those advisory signs only went in because I complained to the Te Kuiti DC. Their roading engineer was aghast that there were none to start with!

[HenryDorsetCase]

would the correct answer be 'in line with the caravan/truck body coming the other way' ? :woohoo:

you've just given me flashback to the "wall of white" incident one day on the way to akaroa. just trundling alont, about four corners from the top, come round a corner and all I can see is a wall of white: some guy in a big 4wd towing a HUGE boat taking the classic "delayed turn in" line. He had both of the wheels of the 4wd in my line, and the boat was significantly wider than the truck.

You know that bit in Mad Max (I think) 2 when the dude realises he is about to go under the front of the truck at speed, and the camera cuts to the close up shot of his eyes in his helmet, and they get really big..? yeah, like that.

I had room to miss the boat, but thats one of the reasons I dont try and ride fast on the road anymore. You can be the worlds best rider but some fucker will always come along and fuck it up for you

[george formby]

you've just given me flashback to the "wall of white" incident one day on the way to akaroa. just trundling alont, about four corners from the top, come round a corner and all I can see is a wall of white: some guy in a big 4wd towing a HUGE boat taking the classic "delayed turn in" line. He had both of the wheels of the 4wd in my line, and the boat was significantly wider than the truck.

You know that bit in Mad Max (I think) 2 when the dude realises he is about to go under the front of the truck at speed, and the camera cuts to the close up shot of his eyes in his helmet, and they get really big..? yeah, like that.

I had room to miss the boat, but thats one of the reasons I dont try and ride fast on the road anymore. You can be the worlds best rider but some fucker will always come along and fuck it up for you

I'm anal about my lines for the same reason. The road from the Okiato ferry out to Rawhiti ( Old Russell Road ) is narrow & has 15k corners with a lot of camper vans & people towing boats coming at you. I use every inch of road I can to see round the corner.

[Winston001]

Excellent discussion chaps and chapesses, much appreciated. The Vanishing Point (which I learned from KB) works for me but I confess it's taking time to overcome years of cutting into corners. All good.

[The Stranger]

OK,now we are finally getting somewhere.You are supposed to be a mentor,teaching riders good habits - this is where you need to start,not dribbling off into ''Vanishing Points'',the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

The thread is cornering - apex - explain.
MSTRS was sticking to topic. He didn't cover a fraction of the good habits or traits that come into good road craft - mentor or not.
The point of the thread was apex.
What if there is a pot hole or squished possum smack on apex? He didn't cover that one either (but co-incidentally you will see it sooner as it enters the VP if you are looking there).

If you wish to cover road craft in detail why not start a thread on the subject? But it does sound awfully like straightening tea towels to me.

[Metastable]

Just a quick FYI and this can even apply in "perfect conditions" while........ riding on a track, where you have seen the corner before, there is excellent visibility, and it is only a simple 90 degree corner... and riders still run wide on the exit, because they have turned in too soon. Even on the track, one needs to be patient. This can often happen as the speed goes up and your trajectory widens and it can catch people out....

...... but at the same time don't turn in too late :shit: as I did on my last trackday and had to MotoX about 500 m to the opposite side of the track. :shutup:

Joking aside, the last bit shouldn't be important on the street, because you really shouldn't be going that fast.... but turning in too soon is always a problem.

[MSTRS]

Just a quick FYI and this can even apply in "perfect conditions" while........ riding on a track, where you have seen the corner before, there is excellent visibility, and it is only a simple 90 degree corner... and riders still run wide on the exit, because they have turned in too soon. Even on the track, one needs to be patient. This can often happen as the speed goes up and your trajectory widens and it can catch people out....
.... but turning in too soon is always a problem.

Thanks for coming back to this point....cause and effect.

I call the aftermath of an early tip in the slingshot effect. In this instance, it isn't a kick in the pants to help you on down the road, but rather OFF the road.

When you tip in early, you also get on the gas early, and this commits you to a line that in essence creates second corner, one with a tightening radius. So you are forced to tip in again. You may also have reflexively shut your throttle when you realised things were going wrong. This unsettles the bike and exacerbates the drift to the outside.
It's not pretty and can be downright dangerous.

[MSTRS]

...the very basics of good road craft is where it all comes back too,get that right and the advanced stuff is so much easier to get into their skulls.This needs to be instinct,not something to think about.

Been thinking about this. And I agree. Good roadcraft is a mix of basic through to advanced skills. At it's most basic, it is being able to stay upright and control the bike. Only then do the other skills come into play.
What I can't understand is why you would put the VP in the advanced category. The VP is simply the point where we can no longer see the road ahead. Surely the visible road ahead is THE most important thing of all the stuff we need to be aware of? After all, it and it's immediate environs contain what we are about to negotiate. So by scanning the VP, we are in a position to adjust for hazards as they come into view, before they are a problem. Away from built-up areas and major highways, using it's relative position to us is one of the most basic tools we have for determining an appropriate speed. Of course, this speed may vary depending on ability and how willing a rider is to risk disaster.
Approaching a corner as near to the outside as is possible/safe and delaying tip-in/late apexing is the only way to keep the VP as far in front as we can, giving us time to adjust speed or lane position.

[george formby]

Been thinking about this. And I agree. Good roadcraft is a mix of basic through to advanced skills. At it's most basic, it is being able to stay upright and control the bike. Only then do the other skills come into play.
What I can't understand is why you would put the VP in the advanced category. The VP is simply the point where we can no longer see the road ahead. Surely the visible road ahead is THE most important thing of all the stuff we need to be aware of? After all, it and it's immediate environs contain what we are about to negotiate. So by scanning the VP, we are in a position to adjust for hazards as they come into view, before they are a problem. Away from built-up areas and major highways, using it's relative position to us is one of the most basic tools we have for determining an appropriate speed. Of course, this speed may vary depending on ability and how willing a rider is to risk disaster.
Approaching a corner as near to the outside as is possible/safe and delaying tip-in/late apexing is the only way to keep the VP as far in front as we can, giving us time to adjust speed or lane position.

The advanced comment has given me a pause for thought too. Been riding that long, most of the time my decisions & observations are second nature. It was taught to me as a tool to be used on unfamiliar roads to increase my safety margin, one part of many clues. The VP is usually peripheral for me

I think novice riders should be made aware of it but the initial focus is still bike control, correct speed & road position.
Fixating on the VP would be a hazard in it's own right.

[MSTRS]

The advanced comment has given me a pause for thought too. Been riding that long, most of the time my decisions & observations are second nature. It was taught to me as a tool to be used on unfamiliar roads to increase my safety margin, one part of many clues. The VP is usually peripheral for me

Obviously there is a point in the visible road in front of us, beyond which it is counter-productive to be watching. ie - too far ahead to be relevant (yet). But assuming that the road is a bit twisty, the VP is close enough to assume great importance. Heard the saying "Look where you are going, because you'll go where you're looking'? This applies to staying on the road ahead in general terms, but can be equally applied to the VP. This is where your focus needs to be, because this is where you are going to be. Your peripheral vision should take care of the parts in between and to the sides. Since you've already 'seen' them due to your focus point, your brain has taken note and prioritised the importance of what it saw, allowing you time to adjust your speed or lane position without having to look at it again. If it's seen something of real importance, could be a loose sheep on the verge, you have time to take a second look (focus) to re-adjust what you are doing to safely pass/avoid the hazard.
Take a look at racers midcorner...note where their heads/eyes are pointing. Yes, it's slightly different on the track due to the greater speeds and the more open nature of the visibility, but the reason is much the same...look where you are going to be long before you get there.
It's the same as when you are behind 2 or more vehicles. Do you watch the one directly in front - or the one in front of that? I'll explain, or argue the point, if your answer is 'wrong'...



I think novice riders should be made aware of it but the initial focus is still bike control, correct speed & road position.


How do you garner clues as to a 'correct' speed if not from what the clear distance ahead is? This is assuming there are no other reasons for curtailing that speed.



Fixating on the VP would be a hazard in it's own right.

Fixating on anything is a hazard...scan all the time, but keep your primary focus as far ahead as you can

[george formby]

All relevant Mstrs.

Your example with the two cars, I'm looking ahead of both to see where the road is going & watching the cars for indications of braking, turning off etc & things ahead of them which may cause this.

What I mean by the VP being peripheral is at any given time I'm weighing up things like road surface, sheep, etc & act on the VP as it moves back & forth, it does not maintain my focus but I could see a novice rider over thinking it, if it was over emphasized in tuition.

Just like a racer I physically look as far ahead as I can but had to "learn" how to avoid fixation. Visited the scenery a few times as a yoof looking at what I was going to hit rather than an exit.

The last bit is a stumper. Obviously for me the VP is always their but it is so long since I was taught to ride I'm not sure if it is more important than a safe road position for a new rider. If they are in the right place on the road & have maximum visibility should they start by traveling at a speed which allows them to hold the safest line with soft apexes (adjusting speed to stay just left or right of center lane) or initially be taught how to use the VP to dictate speed & use the whole lane?

I know this is a moot point, just thinking out loud how I would personally go about getting somebody rolling safely & I'm not really any further ahead.

I have demonstrated the VP to my girlfriend in a car, she could not understand how I could enter a corner safely if I was traveling faster than she would, nor be able to accelerate while still "in" the corner. It was a revelation for her.

[MSTRS]

Your example with the two cars, I'm looking ahead of both to see where the road is going & watching the cars for indications of braking, turning off etc & things ahead of them which may cause this.



Correct. Your primary focus is ahead of the cars, letting your peripheral vision deal with them, coupled with repetitive direct focus on one or other of the cars to confirm what your peripheral has been telling you. The car directly in front of you is the one you are likely to hit if it slows or stops, but the one in front of that one will likely give you an earlier warning of what the one between you is likely to do. Which means you can react at the same time as the one directly in front, giving you a greater safety margin. Every situation being somewhat unique, maybe it's a judgement call as to which car is more important, overall.



What I mean by the VP being peripheral is at any given time I'm weighing up things like road surface, sheep, etc & act on the VP as it moves back & forth, it does not maintain my focus but I could see a novice rider over thinking it, if it was over emphasized in tuition.


I wouldn't be tutoring a novice on VP, precisely. Rather I would be concentrating on stressing the importance of travelling at speed/s appropriate to their ability to control the bike and react to hazards. Obviously those speeds would be much slower than someone with more experience. Newbies have enough to deal with, without getting too technical.



Just like a racer I physically look as far ahead as I can but had to "learn" how to avoid fixation. Visited the scenery a few times as a yoof looking at what I was going to hit rather than an exit.


So you needed the tactile method of learning to look where you (wanted to) go?
Not alone, mate. I had one such lesson in looking where I was going...and one in adjusting braking distance to allow for the extra weight of a pillion. :innocent:




The last bit is a stumper. Obviously for me the VP is always their but it is so long since I was taught to ride I'm not sure if it is more important than a safe road position for a new rider. If they are in the right place on the road & have maximum visibility should they start by traveling at a speed which allows them to hold the safest line with soft apexes (adjusting speed to stay just left or right of center lane) or initially be taught how to use the VP to dictate speed & use the whole lane?

I know this is a moot point, just thinking out loud how I would personally go about getting somebody rolling safely & I'm not really any further ahead.

I always start with using late tip-in/apex. Then correct lane position to set up for corners becomes automatic right from the start. Somehow the apex/exit follows naturally. As they gain in confidence, they can incrementally increase their speed without having to relearn lines. All they have to do differently is lean a bit more.
Using the VP as a speed control method follows on from that point.



I have demonstrated the VP to my girlfriend in a car, she could not understand how I could enter a corner safely if I was traveling faster than she would, nor be able to accelerate while still "in" the corner. It was a revelation for her.

It's all in the teaching. Not many are taught to drive. Just what to do to get a licence.

[stormerUK]

CORNERING

Cornering is what biking is all about – It’s the activity we enjoy a lot and is probably the most rewarding experience when we get it right. Many riders however, seem to come to grief by getting it wrong; as accident statistics seem to indicate.
Let us look at cornering and apply the system of motorcycle control as described in Roadcraft.
The System – Information – Position – Speed – Gear – Acceleration
What do we need to know:
Where does the road go next?
How sharp is the bend?
How far can I see ahead clearly?
What is the road surface like?
What dangers could there be?
Can I stop safely if necessary?
Getting the approach to a bend right is vital and makes cornering safer.
Approaching a bend – Information – look for all the clues – use extended forward observations – can you see where the road goes next? What’s behind as we prepare – know your Highway Code to understand signs; road markings and chevrons etc. Take into account the road surface and camber. Consider the actions of the traffic ahead – are they braking? How fast are oncoming vehicles travelling when exiting the bend? Consider what hidden dangers may lurk ahead just out of view – junctions, slower vehicles, pedestrians, cyclists, horses etc.
Limit point – the furthest point we can see the road surface ahead where the verges appear to converge. As we approach does that point remain static or is it moving away already?
Guide – while the limit point remains static we should be slowing down. If its moving away we can go through the bend at that same speed.
By using the limit point we can assess the tightness of the bend and have a guide to the safe speed to be at when we reach the entry point to the bend. Therefore, on a tighter bend the limit point will remain static longer – we will be reducing speed for longer and should have slowed down more before the entry point, while bearing in mind the golden rule – always be able to stop safely in the distance you can see to be clear (on your own side of the road).
Entry point – where you start to turn the bike into the bend.
Guide – this will be the slowest point of the bend with maximum safe forward view
So using the system, we need to be in the correct position for maximum forward view while considering stability and grip and using safety as the overriding rule. The optimum line must be conceded if that could bring us into conflict with oncoming vehicles or mean riding over gravel or potholes for instance.
We need to be at the correct speed by using all the information, good forward observations and limit point analysis. We need to be in the correct gear for best engine response to allow some speed adjustment with sensitive throttle control in the bend and the bike should be well settled before we reach the entry point, and we should be relaxed.
Guide – most bikes will give good response at about ½ way up the rev range
This response will help the bike to turn and allow better control – holding a wide smooth line through the bend. Do not apex the bend unless you have a clear view well ahead, and there is an advantage to be gained.
Counter steering – positive steering input by applying pressure to the bars is required to get the bike from upright to the correct lean angle for the corner. The tighter the bend or the higher the approach speed will determine the amount of force required to get the bike to turn at the entry point with the objective of getting the bike into the desired attitude in one movement and then controlling the bike on the throttle through the rest of the bend. You already do this or the bike wouldn’t turn, but a conscious effort at the correct moment is very effective, and necessary when dealing with a series of bends or an island where we require the bike to go from one side to the other and back again in a smooth controlled manner.
Exit point – look for the end of the bend where the road straightens out. The end of a solid white line gives us a clue, and as the forward view opens up chase the limit point (acceleration) as it moves away bringing the bike to the desired road position again.
The way we deal with each bend should not be taken in isolation but as part of the overall riding plan. Good forward planning will help us link hazards and give a smoother flowing line.
Control the fear – use your head! Cornering on a bike is not a natural activity – just the opposite in fact! If we think we’re going too quickly for a particular bend our natural reaction will be to tense up, grab for the brake and target fixate on the perceived danger. The bike will want to stand up and go where we are looking, this is our survival instinct taking over. To corner safely and effectively we must do just the opposite of what our instinct tells us to do. We must relax and look away from the danger to where we actually want the bike to go. A positive push on the bars is required while applying some power. This technique requires correct understanding and enough practice to make it second nature, so that when a ‘moment’ occurs we will have the presence of mind to use the technique confidently. If we allow the fear factor to take over things will probably go wrong, but by applying the correct technique we should get round the bend successfully. We tend to be the limiting factor as the modern bike is a very capable machine.
Guide – so in essence we turn the bike positively, look where we want to go, and apply some power to offset the reduction in speed caused by turning the bike, and drive through the bend smoothly on an opening throttle
Getting a series of bends right is a great feeling and is reason enough to make every effort to improve our cornering skills.

[Katman]

What a great post. Pity it's in Survival Skills where so few KBers ever bother to venture.

Far too many motorcyclists seem to think corners are nothing more than 'Point & Squirt'.

[george formby]

And their it is in a nutshell.:yes:

Even includes my mantra, "always be able to stop etc etc"

Splendid.

[theseekerfinds]

great post stormer UK, the breakdown of the processes is so sensible..
was a bit lost earlier on with what seemed like a point unexplainable from mstrs but perseverence and all that seemed to clear it up.. sometimes I find I am unable to explain the processes by which I ride but some of you guys are able to put it onto a way that I recognise my own actions and understand things a little more.. I'm a fan of tuition and being instructed by those with more experience and skills than I, and agree with that pearl that the good instruction stays with you long after the bike has gone.. great posts folks :-)

[Mainland Mike]

Great image. Safest way to corner on the road. You don't have an apex until you find the exit, you can't find the exit without vision. A late apex gives you more vision which is so handy on Christchurch's damaged roads or for cars cutting the centre line. Not slow either because the bike can be stood up earlier and you can get on the gas earlier and harder if you want to keep the pace up.
<center><img src="http://www.soundrider.com/images/Riding%20Skills/CorneringControl/early%20vs_late%20apex%2001.jpg" /></center>[/QUOTE]