General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread [Archive]

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 12:00

I also think that a lot of the people who happily gloss over the idea of accountability in someone's accident by parroting the old "really sorry to hear about your off but at least you're ok" are simply trying to ensure an easier reception in the event of themselves having an accident.

We need to develop an attitude of intolerance towards avoidable accidents.

kicking people when they are down has never been considered good form, however not admitting and therefore not learning from yours and others mistakes is also bad form.
"really sorry to hear about your off but at least you're ok" isn't meant to be a get out of jail free card. It starts and stops at those words. Discussion on the off can then follow, sorry delete off insert crash and note that even I avoid the word accident.

Eyegasm

2nd May 2011, 12:05

White trash

2nd May 2011, 12:07

Christ sake... A thread bitching about others bitching... Gotta love KB

Harden up ya soft cocks!!! I crashed my bike recently, do you think I came on here
to have a whine to you pussies? Na course not, I picked it up and dropped it off at the shop to get fixed. Will wait for it to be fixed and my knee to heal and get back on it.

On ya bikes!!

Next time, you should spin that bitch right up with a good dose of opposite lock and skid it out. That's called learning from your mistakes........

Paul in NZ

2nd May 2011, 12:08

I went to see a great concert on friday night. I'm a bit of a fanboy so I doubt that the Blind Boys of Alabama (with Aaron neville) or Mavis Staples could have disappointed me if they had tried.

I had a good time - despite the audience of very well dressed wellingtonians all looking each other up and down and sniifng at my jeans... or the stupid fat loud mouthed young heffier that managed to spill half a glass of crap wine down my back right at the start cos her and her moron friends couldnt be polite enough to be in their seats punctually....

So I adopt a similar approach to my motorcycling these days - I enjoy it in splendid isolation and try to avoid contention. I'll leave that to serious motorcyclists - I'm too busy having my own fun and I dont want to know what I'm doing wrong....

Katman

2nd May 2011, 12:13

I'm too busy having my own fun and I dont want to know what I'm doing wrong....

I hate to disappoint you Paul, but you probably fall outside the category of riders who seem to make a habit of having avoidable accidents.

Paul in NZ

2nd May 2011, 12:23

I hate to disappoint you Paul, but you probably fall outside the category of riders who seem to make a habit of having avoidable accidents.

Thanks - I also fall outside the category of riders who encourage people who do have repeated avoidable accidents to get back a bike.... Optomisim is a wonderful thing but it can kill ya!

phill-k

2nd May 2011, 12:38

We need to develop an attitude of intolerance towards avoidable accidents.

Totally agree with u here, and in life generally we need to be more accountable but also more aware of what we do and say.

However I don't hold much hope if the riders I spotted on a recent trip to Ak & back are anything to go on particularly the rider of a large sports bike who travelling in the opposite direction on the motorway made me aware of his presence firstly by his headlight, then as he got much closer his fluro green safety vest (was that by chance the colour given out in the acc educational stops) and then as he flashed past the lack of gloves and the fact he was in shorts, Tee and I think sneakers.

This demonstrates to me someone near brain dead, why? its your and my choice to wear the gear, but what sort of a dick makes a decision to where fluro but not the rest of the gear, I just can't figure that.

F5 Dave

2nd May 2011, 12:47

Sorry I was just wondering who was General Bitch?:innocent: Imagine a whole armed force of miscreants. Admiral Arsehole. Captain Dirtbag, Sergeant Slutface, Major Developments.

We need pictures!

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 12:51

I hate to disappoint you Paul, but you probably fall outside the category of riders who seem to make a habit of having avoidable accidents.

So just how many here are in the habit of having avoidable accidents...?

Katman

2nd May 2011, 12:59

So just how many here are in the habit of having avoidable accidents...?

Too many.<hgvhgvhjv>

Eyegasm

2nd May 2011, 13:02

So just how many here are in the habit of having avoidable accidents...?

Edbear, everytime I get on the bike I look for chances to crash my bike.

I thought that is what everyone does?

Looking for avoidable accidents? but you go where you look, and if you are looking for an avoidable accident guess where your going to end up?

:facepalm:

Spearfish

2nd May 2011, 13:03

So just how many here are in the habit of having avoidable accidents...?

At least one, I would imagine. And that one has a lot to answer for!!

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 13:14

Too many.<hgvhgvhjv>

Be specific. Who?

I don't see anyone having more than one accident and treating their bikes as disposable. I don't read any accident thread indicating the rider was riding without care and attention. What I do read is you coming in boots and all and telling them they could, and should have by implication, avoided the accident.

Accidents happen whether you like it or not. I broke my back at 45km/h doing everything right. I was driving a road that was notorious for accidents - which fact I knew well as I drove that road every day to work. I was very familiar with the road, the traffic conditions, and my vehicle was up to standard. I was driving to the conditions. Now tell me it was avoidable and I need to take responsibility for it.

Like KatiePie, I do take responsibility and only someone who has had such an accident would understand how I feel about it. You have a lot to learn and I only hope you don't have to go through what I have been through to learn it. Don't be complacent and think it won't happen to you - I've been on the road over 40 years! I've done a Defensive Driving Course and driven all types of vehicles, milions of miles in all weather and road/traffic conditions. In other words, I am a very experienced and, according to my record, safe driver/rider.

Your young age and lack of experience is only matched by your lack of tact and compassion.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 13:15

Your young age and lack of experience is only matched by your lack of tact and compassion.

:facepalm:

avgas

2nd May 2011, 13:16

Here's one. I'm looking at you Katman lol237829
Fantastic Technique.
Must have really saved your ass until you could afford that second wheel.

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 13:17

:facepalm:

You might start by taking note of what I've said and prove you're not as I summed you up.

avgas

2nd May 2011, 13:17

So just how many here are in the habit of having avoidable accidents...?
Me.
Every one of my accidents could have been avoided.
But I take the philosophy that I learn from my mistakes, and that learning should be fun.
I just have too much fun - which is my major problem.

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 13:19

Fatt Max

2nd May 2011, 13:20

Does this mean we have to stop waving now..?

I avoided an accident this morning, made sure I had a good poo before getting on the bike what with all that lager and curry I had last night....

Why cant eveyone just be nice, eh...

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 13:22

You might start by taking note of what I've said and prove you're not as I summed you up.

Thanks for the red, makes a change from so much green, I was getting bored with green.

If you don't like what I said, or, as your red rep says, I don't have a clue, how about giving us a clue as I'm not the only one here who thinks the same of you? What are you not telling us?

bogan

2nd May 2011, 13:40

A question that springs to mind is, does it take one? As in, will it take an accident to completely change a riders attitude of 'it won't happen to me' etc. Ideally it shouldn't, but it did in my case. Perhaps a large attitude change (avoidable accident intolerance) among exerienced riders would go a long way to making new riders start out with the right attitude.
Another question that springs to mind, is one enough? Do people have avoidable accidents in which they don't learn from, or only learn to avoid that specifc accident type rather than an attitude rethink, then have a few more.

Perhaps some middle ground is needed between the 'you fucked it up you retard' and 'oh well, at least you're ok' reactions, how about a 'gutted, may as well make the bes of a bad thing and learn what you can do to ensure it doesn't happen again'

oh, and to bring it back to the OP a bit, no you can't just tell other people to do it for you :gob: unless you are a very very lightweight pillion ;)

avgas

2nd May 2011, 13:50

How can you have too much fun..? :blink:
When you run out of places to get skin grafts from.
When your bones creak more than the wardrobe.
or when ACC start financial crippling you ;)

Ender EnZed

2nd May 2011, 13:53

I don't read any accident thread indicating the rider was riding without care and attention.

There's your problem. Try reading the accident threads.

yod

2nd May 2011, 13:55

We need to develop an attitude of intolerance towards avoidable accidents.

Really? So what, exactly, does that mean? We ostracise anyone who ever has an accident that was remotely avoidable? Take their bike away?

Seriously, how the hell do you effect an "intolerance towards avoidable accidents".

ducatilover

2nd May 2011, 14:02

I had an avoidable accident, broke a few bits and bobs too :facepalm: learned from it, slowed down and focused on being smooth and enjoying myself.
This thread looks very potentially fun, so, to troll, accidents are satans fault and bears don't shit in the woods.

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 14:02

There's your problem. Try reading the accident threads.

Don't you love the English language?

ducatilover

2nd May 2011, 14:03

yod

2nd May 2011, 14:04

accidents are satans fault

What rubbish. Anyone with half a clue knows they're caused by the Big Gay Elf in the sky, punishing us for tolerating avoidable accidents.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 14:05

See you must realise the human mind is perfect,

Maybe not perfect, but it's certainly capable of way more than most people ever bother to ask of it.

marie_speeds

2nd May 2011, 14:06

Seriously, how the hell do you effect an "intolerance towards avoidable accidents".

Same way you do with drink driving or cigarette smoking.....that's working isn't it?

Eyegasm

2nd May 2011, 14:07

Can't wait for the day Katman fucks himself up on a bike! - Am I wrong in saying that? I do not wish people to crash, but am finding after some of the stuff he has said I really do not fucking care if he does... I'll still poke him with a stick.

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 14:09

Don't you love the English language?

fear dues Ed, he did shorten your original sentence.
Lot of people post about their crashes to get advice on them. Some over look what they did wrong but I don't think the first move of hitting them over the head with a 4x2 gets the point across. Talk nicely to them first and if they still don't get the point the n grab the 4x2. Also on KB you have to be sure you are answering the OPs issues and not some Chinese whisper that has occurred along the way.
If you scare people away from posting the stories on KB then the newbies don't get to learn from those posts.

bogan

2nd May 2011, 14:10

accidents are satans fault and bears don't shit in the woods.

Satan commands the bears to smear their super lubricating (on account of all the blood they eat) crap in unavoidable accident spot on our highways! It all makes sense now. Our bears are obviously expert at hiding, aussies ones ambush drop from trees, so it follows ours would be even more sneaky.

Bald Eagle

2nd May 2011, 14:11

If you scare people away from posting the stories on KB then the newbies don't get to learn from those posts.

... and we miss out on some great humour.

ducatilover

2nd May 2011, 14:11

What rubbish. Anyone with half a clue knows they're caused by the Big Gay Elf in the sky, punishing us for tolerating avoidable accidents.
Oh, so I have been wrong all these years? :facepalm: Explains why I crashed in '05!

Maybe not perfect, but it's certainly capable of way more than most people ever bother to ask of it.
Come on, I wanted a bigger bite.

Same way you do with drink driving or cigarette smoking.....that's working isn't it?
Raise taxes and enforce small penalties for DIC? They already raised the rego, has that stopped crashes?

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 14:12

Satan commands the bears to smear their super lubricating (on account of all the blood they eat) crap in unavoidable accident spot on our highways! It all makes sense now. Our bears are obviously expert at hiding, aussies ones ambush drop from trees, so it follows ours would be even more sneaky.

Everyone knows Aussie has bear, most believe NZs only native mammal is a bat, just shows how sneaky our bears are.

ducatilover

2nd May 2011, 14:17

Satan commands the bears to smear their super lubricating (on account of all the blood they eat) crap in unavoidable accident spot on our highways! It all makes sense now. Our bears are obviously expert at hiding, aussies ones ambush drop from trees, so it follows ours would be even more sneaky.

<IMG SRC=http://auroracoda.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/hiding-brown-bear.jpg>

This bear is invisible!

Tink

2nd May 2011, 14:18

Those that make mistakes intentionally ... ruin it for those that don't.

those that make mistake unintentionally still manage to ruin it for those that have not yet made the unintentional mistake, that they may never make.

Spin a wheel... it goes round and round and round and round.... like anything in life, things will never change unless you (one)... every person is accountable for their own actions, and that will never happen (or maybe it does happen, just not by everyone).

My point.... prepay gas.... locked homes.... locking cars.... putting your lock on your bike.... paying ACC .... we would not have accidents if society cared a shit about LIFE and living.

bogan

2nd May 2011, 14:21

This bear is invisible!

sneaky fucker eh, bet he's the kind that likes to put rips in seat too :shifty:

this one seem much friendlier

<img src="http://allthingsordinary.se/images/original/53__xnx1OY97Hj5qzi30hSvZjCfho1_500.jpg?1255026512" />

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 14:22

fear dues Ed, he did shorten your original sentence.
Lot of people post about their crashes to get advice on them. Some over look what they did wrong but I don't think the first move of hitting them over the head with a 4x2 gets the point across. Talk nicely to them first and if they still don't get the point the n grab the 4x2. Also on KB you have to be sure you are answering the OPs issues and not some Chinese whisper that has occurred along the way.
If you scare people away from posting the stories on KB then the newbies don't get to learn from those posts.

I read such as from Terbang, Katie et al, and these are people who are careful, conscious riders. Others too, ride to stay alive, yet they have a crash. I asked Katman to be specific, who has the habit of crashing avoidably? - to explain himself fully, yet he ignores the opportunity to explain his view point.

There have been the occasional, very occasional, posts of someone who stuffs up through foolishness but they admit that. Others die and are in no position to explain why they crashed.

Accidents happen no matter how careful you are being and will continue to happen both to silly and careful people alike. I was able to avoid one for 40 years. Have I learned from it? Yes. Could I have avoided it? Theoretically maybe, realistically, probably not except to simply not have been there at the time.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 14:25

I asked Katman to be specific, who has the habit of crashing avoidably?

Park yourself up on the likes of the Coro Loop for a summer's weekend and you'll see plenty of them.

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 14:30

Park yourself up on the likes of the Coro Loop for a summer's weekend and you'll see plenty of them.

Fair enough to criticise the idiot riders and I've seen a few in my time. However your posts don't target those ones. Nobody criticises you for making this point, but when you tar such as Terbang and Katie with the same brush and display such a lack of understanding... you see the point I've been making?

You can be as careful and concious as you like and still crash. There is a difference.

yod

2nd May 2011, 14:32

Same way you do with drink driving or cigarette smoking.....that's working isn't it?

You're kidding right?

DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE, ok I won't drink and then drive.
DON'T SMOKE, ok I won't smoke.

DON"T HAVE AN ACCIDENT, ok I'll ride perfectly and never have an accident; not exactly realistic is it?

That's the thing with accidents; they're accidental. :sunny:

ducatilover

2nd May 2011, 14:33

sneaky fucker eh, bet he's the kind that likes to put rips in seat too :shifty:

this one seem much friendlier

Those seat ripper bears are fuckin' everywhere in Eketahuna, i was lucky to get away with half a seat cover per bike! :facepalm:

<img src=http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01214/bear_1214344c.jpg>

They like to be clean though

Katman

2nd May 2011, 14:34

but when you tar such as Terbang and Katie with the same brush and display such a lack of understanding... you see the point I've been making?

Here's another one........

Park yourself up in the proximity of any motorcycle racing event and at the end of the day you'll see plenty of them.

Sound familiar?

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 14:35

You're kidding right?

DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE, ok I won't drink and then drive.
DON'T SMOKE, ok I won't smoke.

DON"T HAVE AN ACCIDENT, ok I'll ride perfectly and never have an accident; not exactly realistic is it?

That's the thing with accidents; they're accidental. :sunny:

Nah, couldn't be...

ac·ci·dent (ks-dnt, -dnt)
n.
1.
a. An unexpected and undesirable event, especially one resulting in damage or harm: car accidents on icy roads.
b. An unforeseen incident: A series of happy accidents led to his promotion.
c. An instance of involuntary urination or defecation in one's clothing.
2. Lack of intention; chance: ran into an old friend by accident.
3. Logic A circumstance or attribute that is not essential to the nature of something.

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 14:36

You're kidding right?

DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE, ok I won't drink and then drive.
DON'T SMOKE, ok I won't smoke.

DON"T HAVE AN ACCIDENT, ok I'll ride perfectly and never have an accident; not exactly realistic is it?

That's the thing with accidents; they're accidental. :sunny:

the problem with accidents or even crashes is that some, as said above, are accidents. Not many are accidents, more are misreading the circumstances or the other party changing what they are doing in a way that negates your avoidance action and makes a collision unavoidable.

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 14:38

Here's another one........

Park yourself up in the proximity of any motorcycle racing event and at the end of the day you'll see plenty of them.

Sound familiar?

So target these ones! Nobody would criticise you for getting on a soapbox and complaining about recklessness, but plenty will when you do likewise to those who are anything but reckless.

onearmedbandit

2nd May 2011, 14:42

Thing is, it's not only the 'reckless' ones having accidents is it.

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 14:43

So target these ones! Nobody would criticise you for getting on a soapbox and complaining about recklessness, but plenty will when you do likewise to those who are anything but reckless.

+1 I will even chip in and help :devil2: but don't expect me to sit by and keep mum when the the wrong ones are targeted.

ducatilover

2nd May 2011, 14:45

Here's another one........

Park yourself up in the proximity of any motorcycle racing event and at the end of the day you'll see plenty of them.

Sound familiar?

that one surprises me, it's true with car and bike events often. Idiots thrashing bikes on cold motor/box/clutch/brakes/tyres and same for cars.
It won't be fixed.

MSTRS

2nd May 2011, 14:50

There is a story in Napier concerning a bloke that wrote off 4 bikes in a single year. What his injuries were, I couldn't say, but every crash he had was a result of too much speed for the conditions. The story insists he was proud of his record.
Who wants to be like that guy? Apart from surviving, that is...

Katman

2nd May 2011, 14:51

It won't be fixed.

A large part of fixing a problem is recognising that the problem exists.

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 14:51

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 14:52

Thing is, it's not only the 'reckless' ones having accidents is it.

That's also my point. Accidents happen to all for many different reasons. Sure, we can all learn from them, and hopefully we all do. But the contention arises when people imply that all accidents are avoidable. Was mine? Was Katie's, was Terbang's? In theory, no doubt, even mine was, but in practice, in reality, probably not.

The one's who ride recklessly, usually kill themselves, it's the careful who most often get injured and live. Not 100%, but generally true.

ducatilover

2nd May 2011, 14:59

A large part of fixing a problem is recognising that the problem exists.

I see it much like the "boy race" problem, it's been around for such a long time and it won't change, unless someone has a brilliant idea? I would like to see this fixed, rider and driver awareness raised, too many people die.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 15:00

The one's who ride recklessly, usually kill themselves, it's the careful who most often get injured and live. Not 100%, but generally true.

Bollocks.

The reckless very often live to cost the country a small fortune.

The truly careful don't actually have that many accidents.

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 15:07

Bollocks.

The reckless very often live to cost the country a small fortune.

The truly careful don't actually have that many accidents.

"Bollocks"? Be nice! :angry:

I said I was speaking generally and as such there will be examples of exactly the opposite. I am one of the very careful and I've cost the country a small fortune! So's Katie, so's Terbang.

And as you point out, the TRULY careful, do have accidents. Sure, not many, I've only had one in 40 years, Terbang and Katie? How many?

In fact, how many careful riders here have had an accident? How many reckless riders?

Could we have a show of hands?

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 15:17

"Bollocks"? Be nice! :angry:

I said I was speaking generally and as such there will be examples of exactly the opposite. I am one of the very careful and I've cost the country a small fortune! So's Katie, so's Terbang.

And as you point out, the TRULY careful, do have accidents. Sure, not many, I've only had one in 40 years, Terbang and Katie? How many?

In fact, how many careful riders here have had an accident? How many reckless riders?

Could we have a show of hands?

:devil2: 0 reckless riders because we are all careful riders, by our own definitions.
But I do know what you mean and reading the post you can tell if the rider has been stupid, reckless or unlucky. Katie, we still don't really know what happened on the day but we do know from post by and about her that she is usually careful. Yourself Ed, I don't know as I haven't read your story but seeing your general posting I don't imagine you were reckless.
From what I have seen on other posts, not accident related, is that when the rider is posting something stupid they get told.

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 15:24

:devil2: 0 reckless riders because we are all careful riders, by our own definitions.
But I do know what you mean and reading the post you can tell if the rider has been stupid, reckless or unlucky. Katie, we still don't really know what happened on the day but we do know from post by and about her that she is usually careful. Yourself Ed, I don't know as I haven't read your story but seeing your general posting I don't imagine you were reckless.
From what I have seen on other posts, not accident related, is that when the rider is posting something stupid they get told.

I've got a thread started by Maha, "Edbear in hospital", updated it today.

Yup! It's usually obvious, either by admission or the wording, whether it was a genuine accident or due to a lack of care and attention, and those one's usually agree when told they were silly.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 15:27

So what about 'inattentive'?

Not as bad as 'reckless' but certainly none the less culpable.

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 15:35

So what about 'inattentive'?

Not as bad as 'reckless' but certainly none the less culpable.

but there is more room for hairsplitting there and room to discuss why the inattention occurred and learn from it. for instance was the inattention due to a distraction that any normal human will react to, like the two cops that rammed each other at the intersection, I think that has been put down to distraction.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 15:37

but there is more room for hairsplitting there and room to discuss why the inattention occurred and learn from it.

Not if someone blindly denies their inattention.

MSTRS

2nd May 2011, 15:38

So what about 'inattentive'?

Oooh, I had one of those. In 1974. Learned my lesson

Not as bad as 'reckless' but certainly none the less culpable.

Prolly been reckless a time or three. Been lucky tho. Unless under-estimating braking distance counts? Learned that particular lesson too.

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 15:38

Not if someone blindly denies their inattention.

true on that point

avgas

2nd May 2011, 15:39

so, to troll, accidents are satans fault and bears don't shit in the woods.
And British cars are for homos (elton john) and royals (who are also gay)

Edbear

2nd May 2011, 15:40

Not if someone blindly denies their inattention.

Haven't noticed anyone doing that either.

Unless I wasn't paying attention at the time... :shutup:

Katman

2nd May 2011, 15:41

Unless I wasn't paying attention at the time... :shutup:

Hey, maybe we're getting somewhere.

R-Soul

2nd May 2011, 15:44

Me.
Every one of my accidents could have been avoided.
But I take the philosophy that I learn from my mistakes, and that learning should be fun.
I just have too much fun - which is my major problem.

Me too...
I was a complete miscreant with large ego, and no training, education, information, common sense or talent (well...maybe some talent), and went out and did stoopid things while pissed. Completely avoidable if I had bothered with a small amount of research or even asking around. But teenage boys with ego dont ask. They just go.

I am damn lucky that I can still walk and talk, in fact live at all. It could have been ridiculously bad....

Fatt Max

2nd May 2011, 15:51

I wish I was Reckless.....

He is a good looking bastard with sexy leathers and a nice bike,

Where as I am a big fat person

Yeah, good onya Reckless, I luvs ya.....

White trash

2nd May 2011, 15:58

I had an avoidable one just yesterday actually.

Was practicing sliding the bike into a U-turn with the back locked up and sideways, then spinning the rear up to get a little drift happening to head the other direction. Mistimed it slightly and managed to not get the clutch dumped quickly enough and dropped the bike as it became stationary. Learnt that when that happens, my freshly painted stator cover gets scratched. Fuck it.

MSTRS

2nd May 2011, 16:03

Jimmy!! Naughty boy! We've told you before to leave your training wheels on!

Oblivion

2nd May 2011, 16:04

White trash

2nd May 2011, 16:07

Jimmy!! Naughty boy! We've told you before to leave your training wheels on!

I'm sorry :( Wont do it again until I've got a crash cage fitted.

MSTRS

2nd May 2011, 16:12

Maybe we are totally wasting our time re trying to bring down the frequency of bike crashes?
Boys and girls - we're all human. And we will make mistakes. Sometimes we learn from them. Sometimes we don't. Sometimes we don't get a second chance to learn.

Trouble with mistakes is the smallest, most inconsequential ones can have the worst of outcomes. And sometimes we walk away from Armegeddon.

What we can't get away from is the attitude that seeks to shift blame for any accident. That's all we can really affect. The hope is that will lead to a lowering of the number of crashes, which *should* lead to a lowering of the injury rate. What those injuries are, is more a case of luck.

tigertim20

2nd May 2011, 16:13

I also think that a lot of the people who happily gloss over the idea of accountability in someone's accident by parroting the old "really sorry to hear about your off but at least you're ok" are simply trying to ensure an easier reception in the event of themselves having an accident.

We need to develop an attitude of intolerance towards avoidable accidents.

Ok. when you get run down by a drunk driver, Ill be the first to piss on ya grave, (having driven there drunk) while ranting about how you stupid biker cunts are giving us drunks a bad name by riding underneath our cars.

Anyone wanna chip in for my plane ticket?:innocent:

Number One

2nd May 2011, 16:22

I also think that a lot of the people who happily gloss over the idea of accountability in someone's accident by parroting the old "really sorry to hear about your off but at least you're ok" are simply trying to ensure an easier reception in the event of themselves having an accident..

What a load of shite...good troll and if you actually mean that then I'd say your reckoning is right up there with someone who recently commented that people who donated to a fallen female rider only did so as they wanted into her pants.

I don't disagree with the personal accountability message but for me, once again your delivery causes me to just :rolleyes:

Ender EnZed

2nd May 2011, 16:22

Maybe we are totally wasting our time re trying to bring down the frequency of bike crashes?
Boys and girls - we're all human. And we will make mistakes. Sometimes we learn from them. Sometimes we don't. Sometimes we don't get a second chance to learn.

Trouble with mistakes is the smallest, most inconsequential ones can have the worst of outcomes. And sometimes we walk away from Armegeddon.

What we can't get away from is the attitude that seeks to shift blame from any accident. That's all we can really affect.

Absolutely.

So why are there efforts being made to reinforce this attitude of avoiding blame in all but the most obvious of cases?

Maha

2nd May 2011, 16:29

Absolutely.

So why are there efforts being made to reinforce this attitude of avoiding blame in all but the most obvious of cases?

Because, in alot of cases, the SCU report is rearly veiwed by anyone other than those close to the crashee.
Case in point: Light plane crash last year at Marsden cove, CAA report says that Mr Hopper made a fatal error of judgement during take off (showing off to his mates on the ground, he pay the ultimate price and dies)
His father still blames the wind...:facepalm:

Same with ''some'' bike crashes, its everything else but the riders fault.
Even if a Coroners report says differently, the mind set of some will never be changed.
Fact of life.

baptist

2nd May 2011, 16:32

Sorry I was just wondering who was General Bitch?:innocent: Imagine a whole armed force of miscreants. Admiral Arsehole. Captain Dirtbag, Sergeant Slutface, Major Developments.

We need pictures!

I thought it was General Accident and Major Incident.....:innocent:

Accidents happen whether you like it or not. I broke my back at 45km/h doing everything right. I was driving a road that was notorious for accidents - which fact I knew well as I drove that road every day to work. I was very familiar with the road, the traffic conditions, and my vehicle was up to standard. I was driving to the conditions. Now tell me it was avoidable and I need to take responsibility for it.

I was stationary giving way to an oncoming car (I was in a car in a passing bay) in a country lane in England when another car came hooning down the lane and straight up my rear end... result a broken back... you're right mate sometimes accidents do just happen, for me to have moved would have resulted in a head on collision.

I avoided an accident this morning, made sure I had a good poo before getting on the bike what with all that lager and curry I had last night....

:sick: phew the world had a lucky escape...:innocent:

Really? So what, exactly, does that mean? We ostracise anyone who ever has an accident that was remotely avoidable? Take their bike away?

Seriously, how the hell do you effect an "intolerance towards avoidable accidents".

See you must realise the human mind is perfect, mistakes are not tolerable at all, gas them all.

I was gonna say put them against a wall :ar15::whistle:

What rubbish. Anyone with half a clue knows they're caused by the Big Gay Honda riding Elf in the sky, punishing us for tolerating avoidable accidents.

fixed it for ya...

And British cars are for homos (elton john) and royals (who are also gay)

:Oi::bash::angry2::spanking: I like English cars and I do not own a Honda...

Fatt Max

2nd May 2011, 16:38

Boys and girls - we're all human.

That there is the essential statement with regards to our species. I appreciate that it only relates to 98.75% of people on this site of site's, but for me it really is the only thing that can explain, detract from, criticise, be the cause of fault or any other instance, circumstance, action or reaction.

But hey, it's fun to juggle the buns on this so please dont let me stop you

After all, we are all human.....

MSTRS

2nd May 2011, 16:43

... juggle the buns ...

If they are sticky buns, then I'd have to assume that a narrow escape from one accident lead to one of another type. Was it your fault or couldn't you help yourself?

Spearfish

2nd May 2011, 16:44

So what have we learned here today?

Obama killed Osama

A woman went under a bus

and this thread is at the same point it started.

ducatilover

2nd May 2011, 16:45

And British cars are for homos (elton john) and royals (who are also gay)

I'm on my third Honda and love my British cars. pass the cock please.

Oblivion

2nd May 2011, 16:56

Obama killed Osama

We all know that he was killed over legal rights to the "S" :sunny:

MSTRS

2nd May 2011, 17:04

Next you'll be telling us it was Corporate America's fault...
Poor old Osama - innocent, just like bikers who crash (oops, sorry, I mean have an accident)

Katman

2nd May 2011, 17:47

Ok. when you get run down by a drunk driver, Ill be the first to piss on ya grave, (having driven there drunk) while ranting about how you stupid biker cunts are giving us drunks a bad name by riding underneath our cars.

Anyone wanna chip in for my plane ticket?:innocent:

Wow, that's a lot of anger there Tim.

Perhaps you should run along and toss a quick one off. It may relieve a bit of pressure off your brain.

Grubber

2nd May 2011, 17:48

Thanks for the red, makes a change from so much green, I was getting bored with green.

If you don't like what I said, or, as your red rep says, I don't have a clue, how about giving us a clue as I'm not the only one here who thinks the same of you? What are you not telling us?
He is a one man army that shoots reds. I got one the other day too. Funny as!

:facepalm:

Same way you do with drink driving or cigarette smoking.....that's working isn't it?
They aren't accidents! they are by choice.

Park yourself up on the likes of the Coro Loop for a summer's weekend and you'll see plenty of them.
Funny enough. The percentage isn't what you indicate going from what i have seen over there!

Here's another one........

Park yourself up in the proximity of any motorcycle racing event and at the end of the day you'll see plenty of them.

Sound familiar?
I have departed many a race track and can't say i have been inundated with idiots. Couple here and there but not a multitude by any means.

Bollocks.

The reckless very often live to cost the country a small fortune.

The truly careful don't actually have that many accidents.
At least i would agree with this one.

So what about 'inattentive'?

Not as bad as 'reckless' but certainly none the less culpable.
Ya see....your just looking for ways and means to stamp your ground. How much further do you need to go, how much more picky do you need to be.

but there is more room for hairsplitting there and room to discuss why the inattention occurred and learn from it. for instance was the inattention due to a distraction that any normal human will react to, like the two cops that rammed each other at the intersection, I think that has been put down to distraction.

Hairsplitting is what it seems to have come to....I think we all learn from our moments. Thing is we don't need the Katmans of this world to tell us. We're all grown up now.

Not if someone blindly denies their inattention.
Most people who screw up in any way are generally happy to put their hand up.
The few that are in fact a case of complete recklessness are few and far between i believe.
It's a case of personal responsibility all round for sure and when we fuck up, sit down and analyse it all somewhat so it won't happen again. But to infiltrate every damn thread to push ya annoying little case is kinda tedious to say the least.:yes:

Katman

2nd May 2011, 18:19

Most people who screw up in any way are generally happy to put their hand up.

Post of the year. :killingme

pzkpfw

2nd May 2011, 19:27

Surely for Katman, the best way to screw is to put his hand up.

Oblivion

2nd May 2011, 19:37

Surely for Katman, the best way to screw is to put his hand up.

And we have a turn around :corn:

neels

2nd May 2011, 20:07

So a blatant Katman baiting thread, good to see it wasn't wasted.

Anyway, I've dropped 2 bikes on their sides when almost stationary, and freely admit in both cases I fucked up. I know I've fucked up lots of corners in my time, but obviously don't ride at 10/10 as I've always gathered it up and carried on.

In the only coming together with another vehicle I've had when a van driver turned across my path when my lane was clear, who I managed to almost miss and only ended up with the wife with a bashed foot, short of stopping for every oncoming car passing every driveway in case they turn right I don't see what else I could have done to avoid it.

So does that make me a careful, attentive rider, or just lucky so far?

Spearfish

2nd May 2011, 20:37

Probably a bit off topic....

Is it possible to be so focused on not crashing that I'm creating myself more risk of doing so?
This wet riding season has given me the shyts more than any other so far. I'm not sure if ignorance got me through the last few winters with no real problems or what but the last month or so the exact the same situations are triggering a bigger reaction. I'm guessing its just a phase but its not a safe phase...Its almost like everything is new and I'm being hyper sensative to what I perceive is a hazzard.

Ok, back on topic...carry on the conversation.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 20:43

Its almost like everything is new and I'm being hyper sensative to what I perceive is a hazzard.

You quite possibly are becoming hyper sensistive.

Don't worry, soon that heightened awareness will seem normal.

Spearfish

2nd May 2011, 20:50

You quite possibly are becoming hyper sensistive.

Don't worry, soon that heightened awareness will seem normal.

There is a normal?

neels

2nd May 2011, 20:56

There is a normal?
Yep.

Every time I get a new tyre I get like that, or when I get back on the ducati after thrashing the crap out of the yamaha to get anywhere.

I like to think it's a good thing.

oneofsix

2nd May 2011, 20:58

Katman is trying to teach us mantrol :yes: sorry I just saw the ad on telly :innocent:
I feel we need to discuss our off openly and the yahoo image needs to be tamed but then I saw 4wdtv at the weekend and was commenting on the way they always showed the vehicles going flat out instead of responsibly. Is this the real problem, the image not the KBers?

davebullet

2nd May 2011, 21:02

I would wager that the amount of personal responsibilty taken is directly proportional to maturity + IQ.

Time for another poll? I mean how many people really believe it is "someone elses fault". Those that do I bet crash more than once. No learning loop with them is there? - too fucking thick.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 21:05

but then I saw 4wdtv at the weekend and was commenting on the way they always showed the vehicles going flat out instead of responsibly.

I wonder if that's something that motorcycle magazines need to consider.

Just what image is wheel standing bikes that they are road testing on public roads sending out there?

Grahameeboy

2nd May 2011, 21:09

So just how many here are in the habit of having avoidable accidents...?

I wet my pants once...does that count

Drew

2nd May 2011, 21:15

I am what you would probably call a reckless rider. I have had a couple crashes on the road when I was riding pretty bloody fast. I put my hand up straight away and waived off any sympathy.

I have also had a couple crashes when I was taking it easy, (and I mean going VERY slow) on the same roads I normally punt on. I cannot for the life of me explain why I fell off on these occasions. One of which I had a group of bikers who normally wouldn't see which way I went asking themselves "what the fuck are you doing Drew? You're in the way".

I admit fault for all of my crashes, had I done things differently they simply wouldn't have happened. What do you suggest I do about the times I've gone down without the slightest idea of why Katman? Hmmm, what can I learn if I don't know what I did wrong? What the fuck could I say about them at all? "Sorry, I know it was my fault, we're just waitin for Steve to arrive to tell me how so".

Accidents do happen, there are unavoidable crashes, and your message delivery is fuckin shithouse.

Peace out.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 21:23

What do you suggest I do about the times I've gone down without the slightest idea of why Katman?

Think harder.

Flip

2nd May 2011, 21:24

And British cars are for homos (elton john) and royals (who are also gay)

Come here and say that!

Anybody would think I was a honda rider.

Drew

2nd May 2011, 21:25

I wonder if that's something that motorcycle magazines need to consider.

Just what image is wheel standing bikes that they are road testing on public roads sending out there?

Oh for fuck sakes! You are sooooo fuckin dangerously close to the bubble wrap PC cunt bureaucrats pandering to minorities in this country right now.

How many fuckin accidents do you think there are per year, that cost anyone but the guy doing wheelies?

Does people learning to wheelie mean they lose some other skill for riding bikes? Is there a finite number of bike skills a brain can hold, and wheelies is one too many?

The image of bikers, to bikers? We each choose our own way to enjoy anything, there is much emulation I'm sure. But we all make our own fuckin choices. You are sooooo fuckin dangerously close to the bubble wrap PC cunt bureaucrats pandering to minorities

Drew

2nd May 2011, 21:29

Think harder.

You don't think I have agonized over why my shiny pride and joy turned into a scratched up hack?

Think about this. It was avoidable yes. It was not however, possible to determine cause. Therefore fault, blame and accountability are moot.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 21:35

Therefore fault, blame and accountability are moot.

How delightfully convenient.

Flip

2nd May 2011, 21:44

Well I for one have never had an accident I could avoid however I have not been able to avoid all accidents successfully.

Does Kat understand that it is the successful management of the risks that makes motorcycling fun?

Drew

2nd May 2011, 21:44

How delightfully convenient.

I find it less than delightfully INconvenient. I would love to know why it happened so that I could avoid it ever happening again. But since I can't, it can happen.

I agree that people need to harden up and take responsibility for their safety. 100%. No question.

But sometimes "shit happens". And it's your total lack of accepting that, that will have you totally ignored by more people than not.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 21:52

Does Kat understand that it is the successful management of the risks that makes motorcycling fun?

Yeah, I understand that.

I hope you're not suggesting that having accidents is "successful management" though.

motor_mayhem

2nd May 2011, 22:04

Hey KM

Can you clarify on your post about people at race tracks, do you mean the spectators who are leaving the race after having watched it, the racers who are leaving after having raced, or the racers when they are on the track?

Hitcher

2nd May 2011, 23:06

I've had some "accidents". Some have been avoidable due to poor option taking on my part at the time.

I've had a couple that have been a bit different. Again, arguably, one of those I could have mitigated better but its circumstances completely took me by surprise and only after considerable hindsight have I been able to contemplate alternative options that may have served me better. Who knows if any of those options would have helped. It's not every day somebody reverses a RAV4 at you in a passing lane.

My last off has taken some psychological toll, largely due to a complete absence of context due to about six hours of complete memory loss prior and patches of loss through the preceding 18 hours. Trying to rationalise all of that following a massive accident-induced concussion and a couple of days post-accident in an induced coma has also been interesting. Fortunately brain haemorrages aren't that common and even less common is having one while riding a motorcycle on a back country road that's going to take emergency services nearly an hour to attend and a bit longer than that to get you to intensive care afterwards.

Add all of that up and I should be dead. If not dead, I should at least be dribbling vegetable material. Medical experts have been reasonably clear on that. I'm not, thanks to some extraordinary luck, amazing people and good fortune.

So was it avoidable? I could have done it at home in bed I guess. But then again I could have been driving a car with passengers on a busy road.

I think about this quite a bit.

The thing that troubles me most is realising that once I'm dead, from my point of view it will be as though I've never lived. I already knew that, but hadn't made the connection in such a real manner. Somehow I may have made a difference to those I've met, worked with, played with, lived with, loved, and been loved by in return. Hopefully a positive difference. Not that that will matter a jot to me once I'm dead.

However I now better understand and appreciate the joy of living. Not just me being alive but also everybody else I know who is. Sharing this living experience business is a priviledge.

I know that many things make me happy, including motorcycling and that, within reason, why should I deny myself those pleasures? My off wasn't caused by an Aprilia Shiver.

One thing that's certain is that all of this living business will end, usually not at a time of our choosing. Let's plan for it as best we can and enjoy every nanosecond as best we are able.

I didn't mean to type all of this. I was going to make a comment about the amount of time that's wasted by Kiwi Biker members over-analysing "accidents", the causes of these and the role that bikers may have in their own demise. For some strange reason I wrote something else.

I think it's time I went to bed.

Katman

2nd May 2011, 23:17

I was going to make a comment about the amount of time that's wasted by Kiwi Biker members over-analysing "accidents", the causes of these and the role that bikers may have in their own demise.

Not only their own demise - but also the demise of motorcycling in New Zealand.

ital916

2nd May 2011, 23:26

I personally don't care if other motorcyclists kill themselves. After a while, one realises that you can tell others what they should be doing, but they will still do what the fuck they want and a lot of the time that is ride like the pack of morons they are. So, you just give up. However, if a two wheeled motorist requires assistance and isn't a complete asshat then it shall be rendered. Like the young girl on a scooter today getting harassed by traffic. I decided to ride behind her and kindly tell the other traffic to fuck off.

Anyway, that is going off topic. Bottom line, there are many motorcyclists. Some want to live, some think they want to live. Those that truly do will be careful and avoid avoidable accidents. Those that think they do but ride like morons might end up going through the pearly gates backwards in a fireball. Should we care. Nah I dont think so.

Grubber

3rd May 2011, 07:16

Post of the year. :killingme
Why thankyou! Still give a red though i see...hehehe.:facepalm:

Surely for Katman, the best way to screw is to put his hand up.
Oh now this is good...wish i had thought of that.:woohoo:

Probably a bit off topic....

Is it possible to be so focused on not crashing that I'm creating myself more risk of doing so?
This wet riding season has given me the shyts more than any other so far. I'm not sure if ignorance got me through the last few winters with no real problems or what but the last month or so the exact the same situations are triggering a bigger reaction. I'm guessing its just a phase but its not a safe phase...Its almost like everything is new and I'm being hyper sensative to what I perceive is a hazzard.

Ok, back on topic...carry on the conversation.
Hmmm..interesting thought. Could be a lot of signifigance in this. Often think that if you over think a problem it can be seen to increase in size to the point you are unable to solve it.

There is a normal?
Who bloody know's what Katman thinks is normal.

I am what you would probably call a reckless rider. I have had a couple crashes on the road when I was riding pretty bloody fast. I put my hand up straight away and waived off any sympathy.

I have also had a couple crashes when I was taking it easy, (and I mean going VERY slow) on the same roads I normally punt on. I cannot for the life of me explain why I fell off on these occasions. One of which I had a group of bikers who normally wouldn't see which way I went asking themselves "what the fuck are you doing Drew? You're in the way".

I admit fault for all of my crashes, had I done things differently they simply wouldn't have happened. What do you suggest I do about the times I've gone down without the slightest idea of why Katman? Hmmm, what can I learn if I don't know what I did wrong? What the fuck could I say about them at all? "Sorry, I know it was my fault, we're just waitin for Steve to arrive to tell me how so".

Accidents do happen, there are unavoidable crashes, and your message delivery is fuckin shithouse.

Peace out.
Ye fuckn ha. Nailed it in one. Not saying i condone the reckless bit but have to say you at least put your hand up and recognize your faults. Also you are right about Katman. Delivery is shit and far too persistent.

Think harder.

Go fuck ya self.
Dude i have had 2 accidents in 40 years. 1 was my own fault (too quick for corner) the other was a dum arse lady in a 4 x 4. Now who's gonna pester the shit out of her and all those like her so this doesn't happen again. Not fuckin Katman that's for sure, cause he's too busy pestering the shit out of all of us.:angry:

oneofsix

3rd May 2011, 07:26

Ye fuckn ha. Nailed it in one. Not saying i condone the reckless bit but have to say you at least put your hand up and recognize your faults. Also you are right about Katman. Delivery is shit and far too persistent.

Dude i have had 2 accidents in 40 years. 1 was my own fault (too quick for corner) the other was a dum arse lady in a 4 x 4. Now who's gonna pester the shit out of her and all those like her so this doesn't happen again. Not fuckin Katman that's for sure, cause he's too busy pestering the shit out of all of us.:angry:

She wasn't in mantrol ... oh hold on she - MANtrol, guess that's a miss then :shutup:

Generally people do put their hand up when they screw up or will accept politely delivered advice because we all want to survive and enjoy the ride. Sometimes enjoying the ride gets wrapped, like the description in another thread of a rider pulling a wheelie past traffic over a blind hill but these types of riders are not often on this site.
What can we do? Discuss our screw-ups and other events openly and without fear of being victimised and discuss what needs to be done by others to improve our and general rode safety like changing the use of WRBs.

Maha

3rd May 2011, 07:30

Accidents are avoidable, that is why they are called acidents, they happens accidentally, not on purpose. If they happened on purpose they would be an on purpose....as in ''oh look, I've have an on purpose''

Spearfish

3rd May 2011, 07:53

Spearfish

3rd May 2011, 08:20

oneofsix

3rd May 2011, 08:30

Here is my low velocity nearly off'd event...

Other than filtering to the front of the que (I was the que) what's the solution to being rear ended while stationary at red lights?

Not be there or be in a car?... probably

This event unlike some is not a bike specific crash

this is where hindsight can be a real bastard, or real fun, depending on which side of the fence you sit.
Did you have your foot on the brake so your brake light still shone?
Were you watching your mirrors so you saw the other vehicle coming?
Did you have an escape route planned? being as you were at the front I guess not as the only escape route would have been to encroach on the intersection, i.e. run the red.
See - hindsight fun. Not much serious help though and even worse if I had delivered it in an accusing fashion.

MSTRS

3rd May 2011, 08:43

I have departed many a race track and can't say i have been inundated with idiots. Couple here and there but not a multitude by any means.

Extrapolate! You occupy, and can observe, one reasonably small part of the road. And then only one of the roads leading away from the event.
The wonder is that most of them get away with it. Most of the time.

So a blatant Katman baiting thread, good to see it wasn't wasted.

Is that what you think I started this thread for? :facepalm:

You don't think I have agonized over why my shiny pride and joy turned into a scratched up hack?
Think about this. It was avoidable yes. It was not however, possible to determine cause. Therefore fault, blame and accountability are moot.

There is always a cause. Sometimes what that cause was, is not possible to determine for sure. Zukin's death was one of those. SCU noted 8 possible scenarios - none of which quite fitted well enough to be sure.

But sometimes "shit happens".

Yes, it does.

... dum arse lady in a 4 x 4. Now who's gonna pester the shit out of her and all those like her so this doesn't happen again. Not fuckin Katman that's for sure, cause he's too busy pestering the shit out of all of us.

He can't get to her though, can he?

Katman

3rd May 2011, 08:43

Should we care. Nah I dont think so.

How very short-sighted.

How's this for a scenario?

The government increase the cost of motorcycling to the point where suddenly it's not such an attractive transport alternative and the number of motorcyclists getting into riding start to decrease (sound familiar?). At the same time a number of existing motorcyclists who are not sufficiently passionate about it choose to sell their bikes so our numbers start declining (I'm seeing it happening already). Then the next cost increase repeats the process. Before long there will not be enough motorcyclists out there to have a shit show of standing up to the powers that be. Then it's only a matter of time before they try to remove us completely.

The only way to fight the process is to remove the governments ammunition against us.

MSTRS

3rd May 2011, 08:51

The only way to fight the process is to remove the governments ammunition against us.

Can we remove the appeal that attracts the idiot brigade?

oneofsix

3rd May 2011, 08:58

Can we remove the appeal that attracts the idiot brigade?

no to both. We can't remove the appeal to the idiots nor remove the government ammunition. There are idiots in all walks of life, even sensible people can do idiotic things therefore it can't be done. A lot of the government ammunition is fabrication and even if you remove that which they are currently using they will just find something else. Basically we as a bikers community have to tell the government to stick it because they are being unfair and address safer riding as a mentoring process.

bogan

3rd May 2011, 09:06

Katman

3rd May 2011, 09:12

I have departed many a race track and can't say i have been inundated with idiots. Couple here and there but not a multitude by any means.

Clearly you haven't traveled through the Paraparas on the way to or from the Boxing Day races, or for that matter, the roads to or from the Paeroa street races.

MSTRS

3rd May 2011, 09:21

no to both. We can't remove the appeal to the idiots nor remove the government ammunition. There are idiots in all walks of life, even sensible people can do idiotic things therefore it can't be done.

Yep. Bu just think...if somehow idiots could be convinced that doing shit on bikes will kill them, they will take to cars instead. Then they will have an 18x (govt stats :blink:) better chance of surviving their fuckups .
BUT how many bikers will get caught in their crossfire?
See - biking is dangerous and should be banned.

oneofsix

3rd May 2011, 09:26

Yep. Bu just think...if somehow idiots could be convinced that doing shit on bikes will kill them, they will take to cars instead. Then they will have an 18x (govt stats :blink:) better chance of surviving their fuckups .
BUT how many bikers will get caught in their crossfire?
See - biking is dangerous and should be banned.

So being a man of your word your bike and gear are now for sale? :innocent:

marie_speeds

3rd May 2011, 09:26

Really? So what, exactly, does that mean? We ostracise anyone who ever has an accident that was remotely avoidable? Take their bike away?

Seriously, how the hell do you effect an "intolerance towards avoidable accidents".

Same way you do with drink driving or cigarette smoking.....that's working isn't it?

You're kidding right?

DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE, ok I won't drink and then drive.
DON'T SMOKE, ok I won't smoke.

DON"T HAVE AN ACCIDENT, ok I'll ride perfectly and never have an accident; not exactly realistic is it?

That's the thing with accidents; they're accidental. :sunny:

That sarcasm of mine went straight over the top of you....:laugh:
Everyone knows...don't drink and drive, cigarettes will kill you....Multimillion dollar campaigns by the Govt to get those messages out and is it working? Absolutely not! The same goes for driver/rider behaviour. We all know the rules, we all know what we should and shouldn't be doing but there are a select few out there who choose to ignore the rules, who choose to endanger not only their lives but the lives of others on the road. What does it take to make this behaviour stop? Most likely an accident that will make them pull their heads out of their arses, same as being diagnosed with lung cancer will make a smoker quit.

oneofsix

3rd May 2011, 09:32

That sarcasm of mine went straight over the top of you....:laugh:
Everyone knows...don't drink and drive, cigarettes will kill you....Multimillion dollar campaigns by the Govt to get those messages out and is it working? Absolutely not! The same goes for driver/rider behaviour. We all know the rules, we all know what we should and shouldn't be doing but there are a select few out there who choose to ignore the rules, who choose to endanger not only their lives but the lives of others on the road. What does it take to make this behaviour stop? Most likely an accident that will make them pull their heads out of their arses, same as being diagnosed with lung cancer will make a smoker quit.

Given the attitude to drink driving and ciggies when I was young and before these campaigns started to what it is now, yes there are some hardcore drongoes still out there but most of the population has got the message and changed there attitude. To be realistic there will be the few that continue and this is why I disgree with further lowering the alcohol limits its targeting the wrong people.

MSTRS

3rd May 2011, 09:44

So being a man of your word your bike and gear are now for sale? :innocent:

Wash your filthy mouth out....

marie_speeds

3rd May 2011, 09:45

Given the attitude to drink driving and ciggies when I was young and before these campaigns started to what it is now, yes there are some hardcore drongoes still out there but most of the population has got the message and changed there attitude. To be realistic there will be the few that continue and this is why I disgree with further lowering the alcohol limits its targeting the wrong people.

Most of the adult population you mean have gotten the message....but sadly the younger ones are still taking the habit up at a phenomenal rate, just as the younger ones are still continuing to drink drive. And just as many young riders are also taking risks. I got hit up at the mall last week by a group of 13 year olds who asked me to buy ciggies and booze. After I finally stopped laughing, I steadfastly told them to fak off and go ask their parents. One's reply is that my mum knows and doesn't care what I do :blink:

MSTRS

3rd May 2011, 09:49

MSTRS

3rd May 2011, 09:58

Most of the adult population you mean have gotten the message....but sadly the younger ones are still taking the habit up at a phenomenal rate, just as the younger ones are still continuing to drink drive. And just as many young riders are also taking risks.

Re drink/drive...
The local paper prints the court outcomes of DD offences, along with the names/ages etc
Last night's copy showed the split at roughly half being under 30, three quarters being under 45 and all of them being under 100 (funny that).
But what is the reason for the age split? Older ones not doing because they've learned their lesson, grown up, never did, or those that did are locked up or dead?

marie_speeds

3rd May 2011, 09:59

Thinking is hard work. Which is why a lot of people don't bother.

A word to the wise is useless, it's the stupid ones who need it the most....

marie_speeds

3rd May 2011, 10:01

Re drink/drive...
The local paper prints the court outcomes of DD offences, along with the names/ages etc
Last night's copy showed the split at roughly half being under 30, three quarters being under 45 and all of them being under 100 (funny that).
But what is the reason for the age split? Older ones not doing because they've learned their lesson, grown up, never did, or those that did are locked up or dead?

Most likely all of the above....but perhaps a justification for insurance premiums. Let's tar everyone under 30 with the same brush :woohoo:

MSTRS

3rd May 2011, 10:10

Most likely all of the above....

We could also step into the twilight zone. Think (ha!) about it - apparently more people exist right now then all those who went before. Even with an aging population, that must mean that there are way more young/er ones than old/er. So obviously, they are going to show up more in the figures. :innocent:

marie_speeds

3rd May 2011, 10:15

We could also step into the twilight zone. Think (ha!) about it - apparently more people exist right now then all those who went before. Even with an aging population, that must mean that there are way more young/er ones than old/er. So obviously, they are going to show up more in the figures. :innocent:

I thought that there were less of us young ones and the govt is taxing the hell out of us to pay for all the oldies...:whistle:

Spearfish

3rd May 2011, 10:17

this is where hindsight can be a real bastard, or real fun, depending on which side of the fence you sit.
Did you have your foot on the brake so your brake light still shone?
Were you watching your mirrors so you saw the other vehicle coming?
Did you have an escape route planned? being as you were at the front I guess not as the only escape route would have been to encroach on the intersection, i.e. run the red.
See - hindsight fun. Not much serious help though and even worse if I had delivered it in an accusing fashion.

I asked all the same questions of myself in the post-mortem we go through after the event, I did enough that time to avoid injury or damage including keeping the brake lights flashing.. escape option etc..even had a fluro vest on (obscured by a backpack though)

Your right about delivery, its the same for the question. If its not worded as accurately as a barister in court it can have some unintentional responses.<-----even that could!!

avgas

3rd May 2011, 10:49

The truly careful don't actually have that many accidents.
Sure they do. I crash into them

avgas

3rd May 2011, 10:52

Re drink/drive...
The local paper prints the court outcomes of DD offences, along with the names/ages etc
Last night's copy showed the split at roughly half being under 30, three quarters being under 45 and all of them being under 100 (funny that).
But what is the reason for the age split? Older ones not doing because they've learned their lesson, grown up, never did, or those that did are locked up or dead?
Bloody scary that people over 45 aren't grown up enough to know when they are too pissed to drive.
Its like 5 year olds not knowing how to count to five really.

I mean if you have had say 25+ years to train yourself not to get pissed and drive home. Darwins law goes out the window a bit.

Spearfish

3rd May 2011, 11:00

Bloody scary that people over 45 aren't grown up enough to know when they are too pissed to drive.
Its like 5 year olds not knowing how to count to five really.

I mean if you have had say 25+ years to train yourself not to get pissed and drive home. Darwins law goes out the window a bit.

Its strange how people cant make fundamental decisions when driving at 400 micrograms per ltr of breath but we are surprised they cant make decision not to drive in the first place at the same level.
Lower it to 0 the maths is easier.

avgas

3rd May 2011, 11:03

Come here and say that!
Anybody would think I was a honda rider.
Wanna pick me up in your British car and take me out to dinner......hehehe

oneofsix

3rd May 2011, 11:06

Bloody scary that people over 45 aren't grown up enough to know when they are too pissed to drive.
Its like 5 year olds not knowing how to count to five really.

I mean if you have had say 25+ years to train yourself not to get pissed and drive home. Darwins law goes out the window a bit.

the +25 years presumes they have been training themselves. Two things come into play here. 1/ are they the group that will never learn, possible through being alcoholics. 2/ are they being caught by the low limit or a misunderstanding of how much has been drunk, remember we don't have a zero limit and there has been this shyt in the media about how you can have up to 6 standard drinks, most probably cross the limit after 2.

Spearfish

3rd May 2011, 11:07

Maybe it all boils down to being honest with ourselves. Own the fuckup if and when you've honestly analysed the cause/s and determined what you could have done differently, which would have altered the outcome favourably.

I saw a little gem in a book I'm reading atm...it goes -

Thinking is hard work. Which is why a lot of people don't bother.

Is it fair to say some analysis cant be done accurately enough by the rider in question?

marie_speeds

3rd May 2011, 11:09

Its strange how people cant make fundamental decisions at 400 micrograms per ltr of breath

People don't need alcohol to make bad decisions.....some of the ones I have made sober have been absolute doozies :facepalm:

MSTRS

3rd May 2011, 11:25

Is it fair to say some analysis cant be done accurately enough by the rider in question?

Yep. It's also fair to say that some riders WON'T factor themselves into any crash analysis.

oneofsix

3rd May 2011, 11:30

Yep. It's also fair to say that some riders WON'T factor themselves into any crash analysis.

I find I go through phases, starting by blame anything else and then working towards what I did wrong. Being told I'm a f'wit, whilst it might be true, just gets my back up and delays the process. If the same message is delivered politely it can speed the process.

Grubber

3rd May 2011, 11:59

Clearly you haven't traveled through the Paraparas on the way to or from the Boxing Day races, or for that matter, the roads to or from the Paeroa street races.

Extrapolate! You occupy, and can observe, one reasonably small part of the road. And then only one of the roads leading away from the event.
The wonder is that most of them get away with it. Most of the time.

There is always a cause. Sometimes what that cause was, is not possible to determine for sure. Zukin's death was one of those. SCU noted 8 possible scenarios - none of which quite fitted well enough to be sure.

Yes, it does.

He can't get to her though, can he?

Well this is all very interesting. I see you both have made assumptions on my part!
I have ventured away from most tracks in NZ over the years and on very small occasions have i felt that there was an idiot on the road. I have travelled in 3 different directions out of both Wanganui and Pairoa and have come up with the same result. I'm not too sure who you guys follow from these events but i don't believe it's the same ones that i do, or maybe you have a whole different perception of what a wreckless rider is. I just know that in all my riding over 40 years i have come accross idiots on very few occasions. It's not a world wide epidemic as you are describing it.

oneofsix

3rd May 2011, 12:02

Well this is all very interesting. I see you both have made assumptions on my part!
I have ventured away from most tracks in NZ over the years and on very small occasions have i felt that there was an idiot on the road. I have travelled in 3 different directions out of both Wanganui and Pairoa and have come up with the same result. I'm not too sure who you guys follow from these events but i don't believe it's the same ones that i do, or maybe you have a whole different perception of what a wreckless rider is. I just know that in all my riding over 40 years i have come accross idiots on very few occasions. It's not a world wide epidemic as you are describing it.

I suspect it is a case of if you go looking for the idiots you can find them. Because you are looking for the idiots they then seem to be everywhere and the majority when in fact it was 1 or 2% on the whole trip. There is a bit of human phsyic in there somewhere, look for the good you will see it , look for the bad and you will see it.

MSTRS

3rd May 2011, 12:25

Well this is all very interesting. I see you both have made assumptions on my part!

I don't believe I did. I merely pointed out that fact that you have seen '1 or 2 idiots' - yet you can't be on every road at once to see all of the possible number of idiots. So you saw 1 or 2...how many left before you, or didn't catch up, or went another way?

schrodingers cat

3rd May 2011, 17:45

I wish Edbear and Katmans bitch fight looked more like this.

http://a410.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/67/m_f445006db1f7cb2052db6d291a5cbb41.jpg

Oblivion

3rd May 2011, 18:01

I wish Edbear and Katmans bitch fight looked more like this.

http://a410.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/67/m_f445006db1f7cb2052db6d291a5cbb41.jpg

:girlfight:

Edbear

3rd May 2011, 18:20

I wish Edbear and Katmans bitch fight looked more like this.

http://a410.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/67/m_f445006db1f7cb2052db6d291a5cbb41.jpg

I haven't got the figure, I'd look awful in a bikini... :yes:

Number One

3rd May 2011, 18:27

I'd look awful in a bikini... :yes:

We'll be the judge of that...pics please.

Edbear

3rd May 2011, 18:31

We'll be the judge of that...pics please.

I'm just trying to figure out how it would go down if Mrs, Bear caught me trying on her sexy lingerie and taking pics of myself... :shutup:

Maha

3rd May 2011, 18:36

I'm just trying to figure out how it would go down if Mrs, Bear caught me trying on her sexy lingerie and taking pics of myself... :shutup:

Come on Ed, if GB can take a pic of his bare arse then post it KB, what you are alluding to shouldn't be that difficult...:corn:

Drew

3rd May 2011, 18:38

Drew- the off's you have had you say you understand what happened with the "spirited" riding but cant figure out what or why with the slow off's?

I cant word this any better so it could sound offensive...

Just for curiosity, are you "self taught", read the odd mag or book, talked to a few mates quicker but mostly learning on your own by trial and error?

I learned to ride when I was about ten, never stopped for twenty years. Riding on the road since fourteen, realised a bit late I was pretty handy but went racing anyway five years ago. And aside from a bad spell of being too pig headed to question the incorrect triple clamps, and pushing it hard anyway I was always top five in several different classes and machines.

I consider myself pretty able, and I've only ever hit the one car that was somewhere it shouldn't have been. So although I might ride in a manner some people don't like, I don't do it in built up areas and don't speed as much around town as a mate, who is a mentor on this friggin site.

Never taken too much on board from magazines

Fatt Max

3rd May 2011, 20:48

I'm just trying to figure out how it would go down if Mrs, Bear caught me trying on her sexy lingerie and taking pics of myself... :shutup:

Lord knows I've tried....

Edbear

3rd May 2011, 20:50

Lord knows I've tried....

Now just when wuz you tryin' on Mrs. Bear's sexy lingerie...???? :angry:

Fatt Max

3rd May 2011, 20:52

Now just when wuz you tryin' on Mrs. Bear's sexy lingerie...???? :angry:

It flew through the air this afternoon from over the bridge, about 3pm if I'm right. Blooming heavy wind that was, eh......:shit:

Flip

3rd May 2011, 21:03

Wanna pick me up in your British car and take me out to dinner......hehehe

If I was 20 years younger and you were just a little blind in one eye what a lovely couple we could make.

Captian soup

3rd May 2011, 21:52

Dear Katman

Shit Happens, wipe your arse, keep going.

Yours Sincerely
The Real World

flyingcrocodile46

4th May 2011, 00:35

We're all familiar with Katman's message (your safety is in YOUR hands)
We're all familiar with the rants about how MAG, Bronz et al aren't doing what you want.

Stop making excuses for your own failings.
FFS, is it so hard to understand?

Bring it on...

As I see it, the real problem is that a small percentage of people take subjects of merit and talk them to death. So much so, that what ever interest that the masses had for the topic is significantly dulled by excessive exposure and the posturing of attention whores who spend their every waking hour flooding kiwibiker with their incessant and often poorly conceived opinions.

Some of you people need to take a break from the internet

Ocean1

4th May 2011, 01:05

Maybe it all boils down to being honest with ourselves. Own the fuckup if and when you've honestly analysed the cause/s and determined what you could have done differently, which would have altered the outcome favourably.

I saw a little gem in a book I'm reading atm...it goes -

Thinking is hard work. Which is why a lot of people don't bother.

I believe it boils down to minding one's own godamn business. Whether the crashee believes he was significantly at fault and what he does about that is nobody elses business. End of fucking story.

Ocean1

4th May 2011, 01:07

As I see it, the real problem is that a small percentage of people take subjects of merit and talk them to death.

Aint that the bloody truth.

Grubber

4th May 2011, 06:33

As I see it, the real problem is that a small percentage of people take subjects of merit and talk them to death. So much so, that what ever interest that the masses had for the topic is significantly dulled by excessive exposure and the posturing of attention whores who spend their every waking hour flooding kiwibiker with their incessant and often poorly conceived opinions.

Some of you people need to take a break from the internet

Right fuckin on Dude.
Just gets a bit too much when you enter almost any thread here and there he is ranting again. The one man band can almost turn a thread about knitting into a "how i should have avoided a crash"thread.
Simply irritating at the very least.:facepalm:

Grubber

4th May 2011, 06:50

I suspect it is a case of if you go looking for the idiots you can find them. Because you are looking for the idiots they then seem to be everywhere and the majority when in fact it was 1 or 2% on the whole trip. There is a bit of human phsyic in there somewhere, look for the good you will see it , look for the bad and you will see it.

I believe you're right. I ride safely i feel and don't seem to see to much different than that. There is always the very odd dickhead but not a multitude of them at all.
I, like you, tend to see the good and disregard the few eggs out there, as they will always be there. I also don't feel the need to keep ramming it down everyones throat everyday.

I don't believe I did. I merely pointed out that fact that you have seen '1 or 2 idiots' - yet you can't be on every road at once to see all of the possible number of idiots. So you saw 1 or 2...how many left before you, or didn't catch up, or went another way?

Ummm, hang on a minute, so you're saying that you can see all them then. How does that work? do they ALL go the same direction as you each time? That could be a story in itself.
I think you got my point in the first place but have found it doesn't fit your argumant well enough, so now you have come up with another angle.
No i am not on every road when i leave, but i do leave these events enough times to know i don't see what you claim. How can you see any of the good ones if you only ride on the roads that obviously have all the idiots on them???:facepalm:
I think you can see right here that, for every road you throw at me, with idiots on it, i can throw the equal amount back at you with good riders on it. It's all a matter of physics and logic really isn't it?
Eg: For every road you travel with idiots, there is all the remaining roads that you miss out on seeing good riders on. You get my point!

Ender EnZed

4th May 2011, 08:06

Eg: For every road you travel with idiots, there is all the remaining roads that you miss out on seeing good riders on. You get my point!

Unless you're attracting idiots it would seem to be a reasonable assumption that other roads have a similar percentage of idiots on them.

Grubber

4th May 2011, 08:14

Unless you're attracting idiots it would seem to be a reasonable assumption that other roads have a similar percentage of idiots on them.

Yea that would have been my thoughts also. So how come i don't seem to see too many at all? I'm guessing we are all in the same country still....?
I don't spend my time racing past a long line of cars or zig zaging in and out of them, so i wouldn't think i was in the speedy category while in heavy traffic at all. Yet i still don't see that many! Whats the deal with that then?

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 08:19

It's all a matter of ... logic really isn't it?

Unless you're attracting idiots it would seem to be a reasonable assumption that other roads have a similar percentage of idiots on them.

That's all I was saying.

Edbear

4th May 2011, 08:57

Right fuckin on Dude.
Just gets a bit too much when you enter almost any thread here and there he is ranting again. The one man band can almost turn a thread about knitting into a "how i should have avoided a crash"thread.
Simply irritating at the very least.:facepalm:

We have a knitting thread...? :blink:

Beren

4th May 2011, 09:08

Katman

4th May 2011, 09:20

So when you sit up there on your high horse and pass judgement on people that havn't been on the road long and have an accident, that what would have been with your experience avoidable. Sod Off.

It sounds like you should be taking the learning experience a whole lot more gradually.

For the life of me I can't understand the need for new riders to take their brand new motorcycle license swimming with them in the deep end.

bogan

4th May 2011, 09:22

Having all of 3 days riding experience I am already bloody lucky not to have had an accident. Actually blog number 2 will be brewing for the end of the week on the stupid blunders I have somehow survived so far without incident.

The thing is at the moment I don't know what my entry speed should be for corners - and I am learning in wet and windy conditions. I don't know how gingerly I should be using my road bike when some loverly bloke decides to dig up the road. I didn't know that the helmet the brother in-law gave me would be impossible to see out of at night. I never considered how much driving rain in your face could slow your mental processes down when it has been happening for nearly an hour. Or as this morning that when you breath out heavilly having just negotiated a corner really nicely that it will completely fog up your visor.

So when you sit up there on your high horse and pass judgement on people that havn't been on the road long and have an accident, that what would have been with your experience avoidable. Sod Off.

Take it a bit easier, or get some training or something, no road user should be operating in such a way that they consider themselves lucky not to have had an accident after 3 days riding :facepalm: that shit is just reckless.
There is plenty out there, keith code's twist the wrist (at least i think that is the name) is a good read, and if you think it's getting dangerous, slow down or stop for a break.

Ocean1

4th May 2011, 09:27

It sounds like ...

Fucking useless.

Take it a bit easier, or ...

Moderately useful.

It's not really that difficult to spot the difference, is it?

oneofsix

4th May 2011, 09:39

Having all of 3 days riding experience I am already bloody lucky not to have had an accident. Actually blog number 2 will be brewing for the end of the week on the stupid blunders I have somehow survived so far without incident.

The thing is at the moment I don't know what my entry speed should be for corners - and I am learning in wet and windy conditions. I don't know how gingerly I should be using my road bike when some loverly bloke decides to dig up the road. I didn't know that the helmet the brother in-law gave me would be impossible to see out of at night. I never considered how much driving rain in your face could slow your mental processes down when it has been happening for nearly an hour. Or as this morning that when you breath out heavilly having just negotiated a corner really nicely that it will completely fog up your visor.

So when you sit up there on your high horse and pass judgement on people that havn't been on the road long and have an accident, that what would have been with your experience avoidable. Sod Off.

Lucky or glad you reacted appropriately?
The list you give are all things you have to learn and often aren't told. For older riders sometimes general experience fills in some of the gaps.
Personally I would recommend investing in a new helmet. I never like 2nd hand helmets, do you know if its been dropped, even on the floor, exposed to chemicals etc plus the lining has most likely conformed to his head shape. What about the fit? is it correct for you or just convenient?
Post your questions and most answers will be helpful, some can't help being judgmental but like trolls they can be ignored or you filter out the gold nuggets from their general dross.
If you think rain slows your mental processes beware the cold and it is also an affect of constantly battling the wind.

Big Dave

4th May 2011, 09:52

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 10:04

Having all of 3 days riding experience I am already bloody lucky not to have had an accident. Actually blog number 2 will be brewing for the end of the week on the stupid blunders I have somehow survived so far without incident.

The thing is at the moment I don't know what my entry speed should be for corners - and I am learning in wet and windy conditions. I don't know how gingerly I should be using my road bike when some loverly bloke decides to dig up the road. I didn't know that the helmet the brother in-law gave me would be impossible to see out of at night. I never considered how much driving rain in your face could slow your mental processes down when it has been happening for nearly an hour. Or as this morning that when you breath out heavilly having just negotiated a corner really nicely that it will completely fog up your visor.

So when you sit up there on your high horse and pass judgement on people that havn't been on the road long and have an accident, that what would have been with your experience avoidable. Sod Off.

If you break a traffic regulation that you didn't know existed, you may still get a ticket for it.
In other words - do dumb shit, and there's often a price to be paid.
A 'bollocking' from KM is tame compared to some of the alternatives.
Some on here will give you long and involved advice on what you should do or have done.
KM will call you a cock for overstepping your experience/ability or for ignoring commonsense.
Both have their place in the learning curve that is motorcycling.

Ender EnZed

4th May 2011, 10:16

Having all of 3 days riding experience I am already bloody lucky not to have had an accident. Actually blog number 2 will be brewing for the end of the week on the stupid blunders I have somehow survived so far without incident.

The thing is at the moment I don't know what my entry speed should be for corners - and I am learning in wet and windy conditions. I don't know how gingerly I should be using my road bike when some loverly bloke decides to dig up the road. I didn't know that the helmet the brother in-law gave me would be impossible to see out of at night. I never considered how much driving rain in your face could slow your mental processes down when it has been happening for nearly an hour. Or as this morning that when you breath out heavilly having just negotiated a corner really nicely that it will completely fog up your visor.

Are you going for hour long rides in the rain just for the fun of it or to get to work? If the latter, you might want to consider practising at a quieter time of day and in better weather until you have a bit more experience.

So when you sit up there on your high horse and pass judgement on people that havn't been on the road long and have an accident, that what would have been with your experience avoidable. Sod Off.

Most people are more tolerant of errors when they're made by someone learning but at the end of the day your responsibility for your own safety does not vary with skill or experience.

Beren

4th May 2011, 10:48

It sounds like you should be taking the learning experience a whole lot more gradually.

For the life of me I can't understand the need for new riders to take their brand new motorcycle license swimming with them in the deep end.

I don't have that luxury. My bike is now my only form of transport. I live in rural KKK 60 odd k's from work.

Personally I would recommend investing in a new helmet. Already done, made a world of difference.

The list you give are all things you have to learn and often aren't told Ay hence the blog post.

Ok wasn't expecting that much reponse to a mild troll post ;) I have already recieved a lot of really useful advice from folks on here - and I am going out on my first group ride with experienced KB'ers on Saturday so expect to learn a whole load more. Also just in case it was implied - the last part of my post was only pointed at those that decide to jump up and down on a point not make it once firmly and leave it.

Eyegasm

4th May 2011, 11:16

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/david_cohen_design/.public/10pics2/kb.png">

Hahahahahahaaaaa

Need a warning sign to "Here there be trolls"

willytheekid

4th May 2011, 11:39

:woohoo:I HAVE THE SOLUTION!....well...Katman does actually.:woohoo:

We can supply katman with some video cameras, and he can go out and show us ALL how it should be done, seeing as he IS the most amazing & professional SAFETY rider around.:innocent:
Im very sure he can go out and film his awesome riding abilities and near god like powers of premonition to share with and educate us all.:yes:

.....ohh wait...thats right, as previously stated...he prefers to sit on the coro loop on weekends (no doubt in his car!) "watching" all the real riders apparently doing it all completely wrong :corn:

Katman...got no problem with your message....Even voted No in your "Self-promotion" thread (should Katman Shutup thread), but starting to develop a problem with the way you conduct yourself on a motorcyclists forum - "posing" as a biker with all the answers & knowledge, yet never offering actual solutions or real world advice...just kicking people when there down, or replying with smart-arsed self promoting comments.
Some of us "actually" ride there bikes (everyday!) - not there keyboards!

So come on!..prove us all wrong mr perfect.
--SHOW US SOME VIDEO FOOTAGE OF THE 'GOD' AT WORK--

I can't WAIT to watch this footage of the master at work.....I imagine Terbang and KatiePie etc can't either :whistle:

-for edbear! ;)

Voltaire

4th May 2011, 11:51

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/david_cohen_design/.public/10pics2/kb.png">

There is even a beer to go with it...<a href="http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/?action=view&current=kb.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/kb.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 12:03

Katman.. never offering actual solutions or real world advice...

Did it ever occur to you that he doesn't want to offer specific advice re any particular situation or crash - because he wasn't there and can't know what might have been done as an alternative to achieve a better outcome?

oneofsix

4th May 2011, 12:06

Did it ever occur to you that he doesn't want to offer specific advice re any particular situation or crash - because he wasn't there and can't know what might have been done as an alternative to achieve a better outcome?

then don't stick the boot in. Most of the rest of us seem to prefer to question and make suggestions as to what could have happened to try and improve the situation. To just harp on the the rider is in the wrong all the time is in itself wrong.

skippa1

4th May 2011, 12:12

Did it ever occur to you that he doesn't want to offer specific advice re any particular situation or crash - because he wasn't there and can't know what might have been done as an alternative to achieve a better outcome?

What a crock of shit. Doesnt stop him making assumptions and hurling off hand comments.(or is that hand on?:tugger:) If that is the real reason he doesnt offer real advice, why does he then feel so qualified to pass judgement?

I say bring on the video too. Be great to see what we are all meant to be doing.....

avgas

4th May 2011, 12:17

Dear Katman

Shit Happens, wipe your arse, keep going.

Yours Sincerely
The Real World
You look fake to me
http://teens.walkerart.org/wp-content/uploads/teens/realworldkeywestbg8.jpg

willytheekid

4th May 2011, 12:17

Did it ever occur to you that he doesn't want to offer specific advice re any particular situation or crash - because he wasn't there and can't know what might have been done as an alternative to achieve a better outcome?

So he can't offer advice etc...but he can repeatedly point the finger and more often than not "heartlessly" blame riders under the exact same conditions?? :weird:

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 12:19

skippa1

4th May 2011, 12:25

Bullshit...
In every crash, someone or something, is responsible. And if a biker was involved, it is entirely reasonable to put some of the blame on them.
KM may be OTT, but his contention that a bike-involved crash can always be avoided if the rider was ... (more aware of their surroundings, for instance) is not unreasonable.

What a revelation lordy lordy:not:
We all know that. If you leave it parked in the garage, it wont crash....however comments like "Why do so many see motorcycles as disposable toys?" is just tosser talk. I havent actually met anyone ever with that attitude about their bike. No one would disagree that if you take the human element out of the equation and there will be no accident. I cant understand why it has to be repeadedly expressed in an abusive manner as that message will never actually save one life.

ducatilover

4th May 2011, 12:26

If you break a traffic regulation that you didn't know existed, you may still get a ticket for it.
In other words - do dumb shit, and there's often a price to be paid.
A 'bollocking' from KM is tame compared to some of the alternatives.
Some on here will give you long and involved advice on what you should do or have done.
KM will call you a cock for overstepping your experience/ability or for ignoring commonsense.
Both have their place in the learning curve that is motorcycling.
MSTRS is correct, I'd rather listen to Katman and be a naive twat (And subconsciously heed his advice) then carry on riding uncomfortably and probably too tense. I've ridden with MSTRS before and he's a safe rider, I'd happily follow (attempt to) his bike around in the knowledge that he isn't going to do anything stupid.

Having all of 3 days riding experience I am already bloody lucky not to have had an accident. Actually blog number 2 will be brewing for the end of the week on the stupid blunders I have somehow survived so far without incident.

The thing is at the moment I don't know what my entry speed should be for corners - and I am learning in wet and windy conditions. I don't know how gingerly I should be using my road bike when some loverly bloke decides to dig up the road. I didn't know that the helmet the brother in-law gave me would be impossible to see out of at night. I never considered how much driving rain in your face could slow your mental processes down when it has been happening for nearly an hour. Or as this morning that when you breath out heavilly having just negotiated a corner really nicely that it will completely fog up your visor.

So when you sit up there on your high horse and pass judgement on people that havn't been on the road long and have an accident, that what would have been with your experience avoidable. Sod Off.

Try finding a riding mentor, I won't tell you you're a knob etc, I started off by myself and I've fucked it up :facepalm: Finding someone experienced and safe to ride with will help a huge amount, plus you'll enjoy it more! :rockon:

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 12:35

... that message will never actually save one life.
Read some of the posts from people who might have agreed with that...before taking it on board???

MSTRS is correct, I'd rather listen to Katman and be a naive twat (And subconsciously heed his advice) then carry on riding uncomfortably and probably too tense. I've ridden with MSTRS before and he's a safe rider, I'd happily follow (attempt to) his bike around in the knowledge that he isn't going to do anything stupid.

Thanks for your faith, but I'm no more perfect that the next rider. I do what I can to 'do the biz', but I'm also well aware that everytime I ride, something could happen that catches me out. Including me doing something stupid.

Katman

4th May 2011, 12:37

but I'm also well aware that everytime I ride, something could happen that catches me out. Including me doing something stupid.

And in fact, being aware of it actually makes it less likely to happen.

skippa1

4th May 2011, 12:44

Read some of the posts from people who might have agreed with that...before taking it on board???

I dont even know what you mean by that.....sounds like some sort of sweeping assumption with no basis in fact.....

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 12:57

And in fact, being aware of it actually makes it less likely to happen.Of course. I also never (well - seldom) lose sight of the fact that it can happen.

Of course, as some wit mentioned...not if my bike stays parked in the shed :facepalm:

I dont even know what you mean by that.....sounds like some sort of sweeping assumption with no basis in fact.....

I asked you if you have read (sound it out as 'red') posts from others who say they actually tried KM's message and lo! they met a situation that would have cost them in some negative way if they'd ridden as normal (for them).

Grubber

4th May 2011, 13:04

Bullshit...
In every crash, someone or something, is responsible. And if a biker was involved, it is entirely reasonable to put some of the blame on them.
KM may be OTT, but his contention that a bike-involved crash can always be avoided if the rider was ... (more aware of their surroundings, for instance) is not unreasonable.
I say bullshit to that.
If i come round a bend and a local farmer drives his tractor out on the road right in front of me, then i'm dead and it's not my fault, no matter how you wanna look at it.
Some kind of logic here would be real good.
Try and at least be realistic about this aye!
Oh and by the way, it is not entirely reasonable to put the blame onto the biker in every damn instance. Try the farmer on his tractor in this case.
Thats like saying, when a fella gets shot, it's his fault for allowing the shooter to buy the gun, when he doesn't even know him.
Like the rape victim that wore a miniskirt etc.
Come on, think about this for a minute.

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 13:06

For those that may not be following the 'other' thread...

I believe that 99% of motorcycle accidents fall into one (or more) of three categories. Inexperience, inattention or stupidity.

We can do plenty to address all three of those categories.

...that's pretty simple, eh? And because, like me, KM is selfish and wants to continue riding without further curbs from tptb, he rightly waves the big stick every time one of us fucks up.
Remove all 3 categories, and we'd have a very low crash rate indeed.

I say bullshit to that.
If i come round a bend and a local farmer drives his tractor out on the road right in front of me, then i'm dead and it's not my fault, no matter how you wanna look at it.
Some kind of logic here would be real good.
Try and at least be realistic about this aye!
Put your scenario in terms of above. If you GENUINELY don't ft into 1 or more of the 3 categories, then sux to be you picking up the 1%.

skippa1

4th May 2011, 13:09

I asked you if you have read (sound it out as 'red') (are you another patronising wanker?)posts from others who say they actually tried KM's message and lo! they met a situation that would have cost them in some negative way if they'd ridden as normal (for them).

Katman doesnt have a message. Dont you get it? He is saying that every accident is avoidable which is only true if you take the human element out of it. That is fact as no person is infalable. So what is the message?Dont ride your bike? Dont buy a bike? Or should it just be flipant or abusive comments about trying to achieve an accident free society?

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 13:12

Jesus wept! Pull your head out of whatever place you have stuck it.

oneofsix

4th May 2011, 13:19

Katman doesnt have a message. Dont you get it? He is saying that every accident is avoidable which is only true if you take the human element out of it. That is fact as no person is infalable. So what is the message?Dont ride your bike? Dont buy a bike? Or should it just be flipant or abusive comments about trying to achieve an accident free society?

Did you see his three categories. Inexperience, inattention or stupidity. Inexperience can only be addressed by experience, and how do you get that? It can only be mitigated by advice and training.
Inattention can have many causes and as it is separate from stupidity we can leave out causes like trying to text whilst riding. Sometimes the thing that is distracting is more deadly than the accident it causes. But as we are humans sometimes something small can cause inattention to something deadly, a sudden sharp pain making you let go for instance.
Stupidity, now this is the one I suspect most of his supporters think his message is about. This is the one that is most addressable.
He left out other road users and road conditions even though these feature in any SCU investigation and any insurance claim so must be important factors > 1%

skippa1

4th May 2011, 13:24

Jesus wept! Pull your head out of whatever place you have stuck it.

Yeah thats right, thats a good answer......whatever your cause.
All I will say is that the wanky method of delivering his message, is in no way endearing him to most if not all that he spurts at. Even his peers, those that moderate this message board have said (quote "His tone is abusive and condesending and that is why most people have him on ignore......As for his online comments, yes, I cringe when I read them)

Beren

4th May 2011, 13:30

MSTRS is correct, I'd rather listen to Katman and be a naive twat (And subconsciously heed his advice) then carry on riding uncomfortably and probably too tense. I've ridden with MSTRS before and he's a safe rider, I'd happily follow (attempt to) his bike around in the knowledge that he isn't going to do anything stupid.

Try finding a riding mentor, I won't tell you you're a knob etc, I started off by myself and I've fucked it up :facepalm: Finding someone experienced and safe to ride with will help a huge amount, plus you'll enjoy it more! :rockon:

Good suggestion, I followed a Mentor in on my first day - and I'm going on a group ride on Saturday. Will also be getting out with the in-laws at every opportunity to get some extra mentoring. Thanks for the emphasis though - will make a point of ensuring I get some extra advice every chance I get.

willytheekid

4th May 2011, 14:57

Did you see his three categories. Inexperience, inattention or stupidity. Inexperience can only be addressed by experience, and how do you get that? It can only be mitigated by advice and training.
Inattention can have many causes and as it is separate from stupidity we can leave out causes like trying to text whilst riding. Sometimes the thing that is distracting is more deadly than the accident it causes. But as we are humans sometimes something small can cause inattention to something deadly, a sudden sharp pain making you let go for instance.
Stupidity, now this is the one I suspect most of his supporters think his message is about. This is the one that is most addressable.
He left out other road users and road conditions even though these feature in any SCU investigation and any insurance claim so must be important factors > 1%

HAY!...settle down, thats logic & Facts your throwing around :blink: ....can't you see KM etc don't want to acknowledge these sorts of things..."there right"!...and thats all there is to it...shheeesh!...the nerve! :facepalm:

Katman

4th May 2011, 15:05

Inexperience can only be addressed by experience,

That, and ensuring you always stay well within the level of your ability.

avgas

4th May 2011, 15:06

He left out other road users and road conditions even though these feature in any SCU investigation and any insurance claim so must be important factors > 1%
Not really.
He was expecting people to find this out for themselves before the matter, not after the matter. Unfortunately it never works this way......and they keep crying here "Its not my fault":violin:

Its amazing that all these phantom objects magically appear right when a crash happens. Certainly makes the blame game easier to play.

avgas

4th May 2011, 15:11

That, and ensuring you always stay well within the level of your ability.
Nah not quite. You and your extremist side a little wrong here.
You can get quite experience by semi-continuously fucking up.
Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

If you don't believe me go pick up something heavy like a car. You can either
a) Say the car is too heavy and simply walk away (your limits are unknown)
b) try and lift car and pull muscle in back (you limits are NOW known)

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 15:30

Nah not quite. You and your extremist side a little wrong here.
You can get quite experience by semi-continuously fucking up.
Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

Not quite, either...
It's true that we tend to make mistakes. If we learn from them - and survive - great. But even if we never make the same mistake twice, if we keep on making semi-continuous mistakes, the outcome is fairly obvious.
There is also some truth in the idea that you'll never improve if you don't try. And if you're not 'falling off', you're not trying. Simple, effective, and sometimes fatal.
Many mistakes are completely avoidable, by using some nous. That seems quite difficult for some people.

Beren

4th May 2011, 15:31

Nah not quite. You and your extremist side a little wrong here.
You can get quite experience by semi-continuously fucking up.
Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

If you don't believe me go pick up something heavy like a car. You can either
a) Say the car is too heavy and simply walk away (your limits are unknown)
b) try and lift car and pull muscle in back (you limits are NOW known)

Not sure i quite get the second part - but certainly agree with the first. There are lots of things I am being careful with, but lots of my learning is coming from small screw ups, that if they HAD happened where there had been a hazard would have caused me a happening. There but for the grace of God...

Ocean1

4th May 2011, 16:45

MSTRS

4th May 2011, 16:56

Of course he does.
Getting in there and saying something like "You cock" is little different to someone else saying "You poor thing".
One seeks to put 'blame' on the rider and one seeks to take it away.

skippa1

4th May 2011, 16:57

... And therefore has no basis from which to comment whatsoever.

Amen:yes: got my vote

Ocean1

4th May 2011, 17:43

Of course he does.

As long as he doesn't mind that not actually having any right to an opinion but spouting bollox on the subject anyway exposes him as yet another fuckwit not worth listening to.

Ender EnZed

4th May 2011, 18:23

If i come round a bend and a local farmer drives his tractor out on the road right in front of me, then i'm dead and it's not my fault, no matter how you wanna look at it.
Some kind of logic here would be real good.

This scenario is entirely possible and not unlikely on any ride in rural NZ. Try not riding into the tractor, how you do that is your own business.

Drew

4th May 2011, 18:40

This scenario is entirely possible and not unlikely on any ride in rural NZ. Try not riding into the tractor, how you do that is your own business.

Katman believes that you should have known the tractor might be, and ridden accordingly.

Works perfectly too, until you consider that if we take that approach, we would only be able to sit on our bikes in the garage making engine noises.

There does need to be more thought going into most peoples riding, I agree with Katman on that front. There should also be an attitude shift in how most crashes are dealt with, to help speed that along.

But should we stop being sympathetic to people who have made a mistake? I don't think so. It won't help. To offer assistance, along with sound advice on where the rider and all other riders familiar with the crash, goes further to lower the chances of repeat incidents than yelling at them all.

Katman

4th May 2011, 18:53

Katman believes that you should have known the tractor might be, and ridden accordingly.

Works perfectly too, until you consider that if we take that approach, we would only be able to sit on our bikes in the garage making engine noises.

It would be a little retarded to blindly assume that a tractor won't be on a country road, wouldn't it Drew?

If sitting on your bike in the garage making engine noises is the only way you can feel safe on a motorcycle, best you stay there.

Ender EnZed

4th May 2011, 19:12

Katman believes that you should have known the tractor might be, and ridden accordingly.

I do know there might be a tractor around every corner. I'm sure you do as well.

Works perfectly too, until you consider that if we take that approach, we would only be able to sit on our bikes in the garage making engine noises.

Perhaps, however I suspect a great many accidents of this type occur after people enter corners with no thought to what might be around the other side.

There does need to be more thought going into most peoples riding, I agree with Katman on that front. There should also be an attitude shift in how most crashes are dealt with, to help speed that along.

But should we stop being sympathetic to people who have made a mistake? I don't think so. It won't help. To offer assistance, along with sound advice on where the rider and all other riders familiar with the crash, goes further to lower the chances of repeat incidents than yelling at them all.

The sympathy needs to be balanced with reality.

schrodingers cat

4th May 2011, 19:24

Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

I'm not sure this is an approved method of flight training.

Why isn't learning to ride/drive more in line with learning to fly a light aircraft?

Katman

4th May 2011, 19:32

Why isn't learning to ride/drive more in line with learning to fly a light aircraft?

Because then idiots would have to walk.

schrodingers cat

4th May 2011, 19:37

Because then idiots would have to walk.

YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG KATMAN!

They could take the bus or steal a bicycle

:woohoo:

Ocean1

4th May 2011, 20:19

You can get quite experience by semi-continuously fucking up.
Sometimes you have to learn the limits of your ability by running out of airstrip a few times.......

Not quite, either...
It's true that we tend to make mistakes. If we learn from them - and survive - great. But even if we never make the same mistake twice, if we keep on making semi-continuous mistakes, the outcome is fairly obvious.
There is also some truth in the idea that you'll never improve if you don't try. And if you're not 'falling off', you're not trying. Simple, effective, and sometimes fatal.
Many mistakes are completely avoidable, by using some nous. That seems quite difficult for some people.

No, he's 100% correct. Learning absolutely requires mistakes to be made. In fact accelerated learning techniques mostly involve provoking mistakes in a (hopefully) more benign environment. He's particularly on target with the continuously fucking up thing. The “never make the same mistake twice” thing isn’t relevant, there’s so many combinations of factors you’re quite literally never in the same situation twice. Everything revolves around knowing where the limits are as closely as possible, all the time, in as many circumstances as possible. The more often you encounter symptoms indicating you're close to the edge of control the more data you’ll have to interpolate through holes in your experience and the better rider you'll be. Those familiar with control technology will recognise this as a typical negative feedback system.

None of this behaviour is optional or in any way voluntary, it’s hard wired into your brain, regardless of what you’re learning. It really is that simple, and more particularly it’s the potential consequences of those fuckups that obviously make learning to ride fucking dangerous. So dangerous, in fact that I did everything I could to prevent my kids riding, including foregoing riding anything myself for a couple of decades. There's a couple of things I know of that you can do to minimise the risk inherent in learning to ride. You can learn by proxy, somewhat, which means taking advantage of other peoples fuckups via both reading about / watching “correct” techniques and by formal tuition. You can also make your fuckups on a dirt bike where the consequences of finding that edge are less severe. Usually.

The tuition thing works, but more slowly than making your own fuckups at detail level. You can’t beat having a good teacher follow you around a muddy field for a couple of hours. It seems to me that more people now learn to ride on the road. It’s unfortunate that not only are there fewer places to fuck up on a cheap dirt bike nowadays but there seems to be limited opportunities to have someone teach you how.

To the point. Attempting to castigate any rider, far less a learner for making mistakes is nonsensical, we’re all making alterations to our riding techniques more or less continuously, based on our slowly improving understanding of just where those limits are. Attempting to blame a rider who’s involved in an accident isn’t just poor form, it’s a denial of the mechanism that enables us to learn in the first place. As for accepting responsibility for an accident... firstly, the only person who MAY know what the rider’s level of culpability might be is the rider himself. Secondly, not only is that knowledge of little value to anyone else but it’s none of their business.

Tink

4th May 2011, 20:19

YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG KATMAN!

They could take the bus or steal a bicycle

:woohoo:

hehe! I can't be bothered reading the last 7 pages... cause I have better things to do with my time... my point about being accountable still stands... and just to fluff it up a bit... why should the tax payer/ACC have to pay for the dude that is not accountable and doesn't give a shit. Oh life is so much fun because of the idiots..

I ride my bike like a nanna, and I am accountable for every swear word that comes out my mouth.. oops thats when I am on my pedal powered bike.

Katman

4th May 2011, 20:30

Secondly, not only is that knowledge of little value to anyone else but it’s none of their business.

When it starts hitting others in the wallet and starts intruding on others liberties then it very much does become other's business.

Drew

4th May 2011, 20:41

It would be a little retarded to blindly assume that a tractor won't be on a country road, wouldn't it Drew?
Of course it would be stupid to assume that there wouldn't be a tractor around a blind turn on a country road. But how slow should you go around every turn? Should we ride like there is something on every turn, when our experience says it's more likely not to be there?

If sitting on your bike in the garage making engine noises is the only way you can feel safe on a motorcycle, best you stay there.
You're clever, I'll give you that. You can twist anything I say to try and piss me off. Usually works too.

I never said I only feel safe in the garage on my bike.

I do know there might be a tractor around every corner. I'm sure you do as well. As above.

Perhaps, however I suspect a great many accidents of this type occur after people enter corners with no thought to what might be around the other side. Again, as above.

The sympathy needs to be balanced with reality. Oh right. Now we need to measure our sympathy out. People are who they are, many walk around with their head in the clouds, and will not look at the facts of anything before forking out. Weather that be sympathy or whatever.

I'm a realist though. I wont sink the boot and tell someone they aren't worth my effort, but I'll certainly refrain from giving them anything.

We don't all need to be preached to by the likes of you two! Infact, it has very little positive effect on most people. Don't get me wrong, the cloud heads fuck me off just as much, but they generally don't wank on the way you are.

I can't figure out how to turn on normal coloured writing after typing in the quote box like that.

Katman

4th May 2011, 20:45

You're clever, I'll give you that. You can twist anything I say to try and piss me off. Usually works too.

To be fair Drew, I can't take all the credit.

You just make it far too easy.

Drew

4th May 2011, 20:46

When it starts hitting others in the wallet and starts intruding on others liberties then it very much does become others business.

Yip, it's your business to either deal with it, or leave the fraternity.

It isn't your business to preach safety to bikers, you're a fuckin mechanic. It could be your business but I'll wager it'd go broke in a month the way you talk to people on the matter.

Ocean1

4th May 2011, 20:50

When it starts hitting others in the wallet and starts intruding on others liberties then it very much does become others business.

The fact that ACC use distorted accident stat's to justify charging you more isn't any particular person's fault. If you feel hard dome by feel free to blame the real culprit: the government. More particularly ACC revenue policy.

Katman

4th May 2011, 20:55

The fact that ACC use distorted accident stat's to justify charging you more isn't any particular person's fault.

That's if you believe they truly are distorted.

My experience of 30 years of motorcycling suggests they're not too far off the truth.

Oblivion

4th May 2011, 20:59

The fact that ACC use distorted accident stat's to justify charging you more isn't any particular person's fault. If you feel hard dome by feel free to blame the real culprit: the government. More particularly ACC revenue policy.

Wallets screaming is music to their ears you know :yes:

Someone needs to give them a good kick in the ass. :angry:

Ocean1

4th May 2011, 21:06

That's if you believe they truly are distorted.

My experience of 30 years of motorcycling suggests they're not too far off the truth.

I believe ACC charges in general are pretty reasonable for what you get, but your opinion on how they gather that isn't relevant. Even if you believe it's OK to charge one person more because he's a higher risk, (and I do) the current policy is neither fair or accurate.

The Stranger

4th May 2011, 21:33

When it starts hitting others in the wallet and starts intruding on others liberties then it very much does become others business.

That pretty much makes the vast majority of people my business. I pay for dole bludgers, fat fucks, smokers and alcoholics.
I really don't mind the occasional motorcyclists getting something back.

Ender EnZed

4th May 2011, 22:02

Oh right. Now we need to measure our sympathy out. People are who they are, many walk around with their head in the clouds, and will not look at the facts of anything before forking out. Weather that be sympathy or whatever.

I'm a realist though. I wont sink the boot and tell someone they aren't worth my effort, but I'll certainly refrain from giving them anything.

We don't all need to be preached to by the likes of you two! Infact, it has very little positive effect on most people. Don't get me wrong, the cloud heads fuck me off just as much, but they generally don't wank on the way you are.

I can't figure out how to turn on normal coloured writing after typing in the quote box like that.

You are welcome to apportion your sympathy as you see fit, and I'm not going to research where that is. However, I do not see the need to defend people from reality, that is to say: the (largely predictable) consequences of their own actions.

This is not directed at you Drew, but it is commonplace on this website to see phrases along the lines of "we don't know all the facts" in relation to a crash. This is true, we know know all the facts. What we do know is that there was a motorcycle being ridden by a motorcyclist. What we also know is that the outcome of any event involving said motorcycle was determined by:

a) the inputs of the motorcyclist on the motorcycle

b) something else

Only one of these two factors is something that the rider had any control over, or any other rider will in a similar (or dissimilar) situation have any control over in the future. I think that this is what needs to be focussed on.

Comments welcome.

Drew

4th May 2011, 22:11

You are welcome to apportion your sympathy as you see fit, and I'm not going to research where that is. However, I do not see the need to defend people from reality, that is to say: the (largely predictable) consequences of their own actions.

This is not directed at you Drew, but it is commonplace on this website to see phrases along the lines of "we don't know all the facts" in relation to a crash. This is true, we know know all the facts. What we do know is that there was a motorcycle being ridden by a motorcyclist. What we also know is that the outcome of any event involving said motorcycle was determined by:

a) the inputs of the motorcyclist on the motorcycle

b) something else

Only one of these two factors is something that the rider had any control over, or any other rider will in a similar (or dissimilar) situation have any control over in the future. I think that this is what needs to be focussed on.

Comments welcome.

I don't disagree. I don't think I've ever said that Katman was wrong either. Just that he's a dick. Makes his message fall on deaf ears like.

Ender EnZed

4th May 2011, 22:29

I don't disagree. I don't think I've ever said that Katman was wrong either. Just that he's a dick.

Can't argue with that.

Makes his message fall on deaf ears like.

Can argue with this. The fact that the unacceptability of crashing is associated with Katman rather any of the more "tactful" proponents of much the same message I think says a lot. If you've read his recent desperate call for attention you'll have seen more than one testimonial to his message getting through eventually. Delivery is everything, KM's might burn but that burn leaves a lasting impression that is missing from any of the countless softer approaches.

MSTRS

5th May 2011, 08:40

....What we also know is that the outcome of any event involving said motorcycle was determined by:

a) the inputs of the motorcyclist on the motorcycle

b) something else

Only one of these two factors is something that the rider had any control over...

.Delivery is everything, KM's might burn but that burn leaves a lasting impression that is missing from any of the countless softer approaches.

And there it is. KM zeroes in on the one thing that is totally within a rider's control - their own performance - and obnoxiously insists they face that reality. Getting caught up in arguing with the delivery method is, in some ways, a form of denial of what should be the self-evident truth of what he says.
The touchy-feely, advice-filled approach is also good.
Lucky we have both sorts here, eh?

skippa1

5th May 2011, 09:04

And there it is. KM zeroes in on the one thing that is totally within a rider's control - their own performance - and obnoxiously insists they face that reality. Getting caught up in arguing with the delivery method is, in some ways, a form of denial of what should be the self-evident truth of what he says.
The touchy-feely, advice-filled approach is also good.
Lucky we have both sorts here, eh?

What a load of fucking arse. Tell me where KM focuses on performance in this statement.

Just another avoidable accident to add to the ledger though. Thanks a lot.

I often wonder how many of those who are blase about writing off their motorcycle are the same people who scream blue murder when someone's shopping trolley puts a scratch on their car.

Why do so many see motorcycles as disposable toys?