View Full Version : Osama is dead
FlangMasterJ
2nd May 2011, 15:02
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/4951535/Obama-to-make-unexpected-statement
ellipsis
2nd May 2011, 15:16
...wow...dont think it will make the problem go away though...
oneofsix
2nd May 2011, 15:19
...wow...dont think it will make the problem go away though...
risk is he becomes a martyr now.
Edbear
2nd May 2011, 15:19
Watching the news now. I agree it won't stop the movement.
Grasshopperus
2nd May 2011, 15:21
Yeah, we'll see. At the moment no one is confirming it.
Quasievil
2nd May 2011, 15:25
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/4951535/Obama-to-make-unexpected-statement
Do you know about the site rules on fatalities??? do you know absolutely he isnt a member of this site ?
YellowDog
2nd May 2011, 15:31
Do you know about the site rules on fatalities??? do you know absolutely he isnt a member of this site ?
Condolences to friends and family.
Always remember ATGATT.
Whatever your faith: A turban is no substitute for a full face crash helmet :facepalm:
Thank god.
Now lets bring the kiwi troops home to clean up chch
risk is he becomes a martyr now.
Yep, and that is probably the "best" thing he could have done for his movement. Coming on the back of Gaddaffi's whanau getting blitzed it will inspire all the nasty little fuckers who are out to see the great satan (that's us folks) wiped out to kill a lot more people.
ellipsis
2nd May 2011, 15:47
....yip...no silver lining behind that cloud...just an escalated protraction of the 'war on terror', and more military might being flexed...and the powermongers will be rubbing their hands in glee...
willytheekid
2nd May 2011, 16:01
Osama dead??
Which one?...guy has so many doubles & look a likes
Plus gotta agree with common sense, 911 certainly wasn't master minded by terrorists who still struggle to aim an RPG....and we all know the Yanks couldn't catch a cold in the middle of winter even if they tried lol
My guess is there just bloody happy to have actually bombed a house they were aiming at!
Meh. He had his good points. He was VERY good at hide and seek. He showed up the yanks for 8yrs. He could grow beards if he wants to.
Elysium
2nd May 2011, 16:25
So sad, sad they didn't capture him alive so he can be tortured and then face the firing squad.
Bikemad
2nd May 2011, 16:31
So sad, sad they didn't capture him alive so he can be tortured and then face the firing squad.
death by ham seems more fitting to me
Gremlin
2nd May 2011, 16:32
so uh... what's next?
There's at least several hundred thousand people now bored...
Scuba_Steve
2nd May 2011, 16:34
Osama is DEAD!
... Stink...
sil3nt
2nd May 2011, 16:37
so uh... what's next?
There's at least several hundred thousand people now bored...Gadaffi. Luckily he survived a missile being launched into a house he was in so the US now has someone else to waste billions of dollars on.
jazfender
2nd May 2011, 16:45
Maybe Osama was Gaddafi's son! :shit:
USA USA USA
Bikemad
2nd May 2011, 16:46
if we could just get that fuckwit Hone Harawira on the yanks hit list,,,,,,,,,,,that would be more of a victory against terrorism than icing bin laden IMHO
Number One
2nd May 2011, 16:47
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/A5iseJJ5ogA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Still I doubt it will make much impact except fire up all his mates
Banditbandit
2nd May 2011, 16:52
Yep, and that is probably the "best" thing he could have done for his movement. Coming on the back of Gaddaffi's whanau getting blitzed it will inspire all the nasty little fuckers who are out to see the great satan (that's us folks) wiped out to kill a lot more people.
Yes .. there's a high risk of retaliation attacks now ...
Oblivion
2nd May 2011, 16:53
Yes .. there's a high risk of retaliation attacks now ...
How do we even know that its him? There are a lot of people that look like one another.
Banditbandit
2nd May 2011, 16:55
How do we even know that its him? There are a lot of people that look like one another.
If you read the article - they've matched his DNA ...
jazfender
2nd May 2011, 16:59
Goff: "I have absolutely zero tolerance for terrorists who kill innocent people in pursuit of their ideological goals."
thanks for the reassurance, asshole. Seriously, he has to say that?
YellowDog
2nd May 2011, 17:04
So sad, sad they didn't capture him alive so he can be tortured and then face the firing squad.
I think he got the firing squad: B I G T I M E
Batcerb
2nd May 2011, 17:12
Cant wait till the movie comes out ... :rockon:
Cant wait till the movie comes out ... :rockon:
Tom Hanks will play Osama, he still has his beard from Castaway or whatever the fuck the movie was called
They did try and take him alive by just shooting to wing him. Unfortunately his poor health left him vunerable to the 200 rounds that struck his head.
steve_t
2nd May 2011, 17:51
Goff: "I have absolutely zero tolerance for terrorists who kill innocent people in pursuit of their ideological goals."
thanks for the reassurance, asshole. Seriously, he has to say that?
LOL. Ask him who has a little tolerance for those people or who has a lot. Politics - the art of using lots of words to say nothing :facepalm:
Quasievil
2nd May 2011, 17:55
Weird just got an order from the US emabassy for some leathers made from Pig Skin..............cool :yes:
...wow...dont think it will make the problem go away though...
Yip, someone will take his place, better the devil you know.
Mental Trousers
2nd May 2011, 18:08
Does anyone know how much the US spent to get this one kill?? I mean the total since September 11th. That has to be the most expense contract kill ever.
Katman
2nd May 2011, 18:08
Yip, someone will take his place, better the devil you know.
Exactly. His place will be filled quickly. Anyone who thinks this has solved anything is deluding themselves.
If anything, things are just gunna hot up.
Katman
2nd May 2011, 18:14
It's ludicrous to think that someone of Bin Laden's intellect and standing would not have groomed someone to immediately take his place - knowing that he was the world's most wanted man.
mashman
2nd May 2011, 18:18
Wonder if they'll televise Al Qaeda Idol odl ady hoo
ellipsis
2nd May 2011, 18:21
...there are a thousand bin ladens out there...his unlimited wealth and charisma is easily duplicated...its called politics and the quest for power...the nutters who are incensced by his demise are already generating the next one...he may be in Bradford or Leeds, right now...
far queue
2nd May 2011, 18:25
Goff: "I have absolutely zero tolerance for terrorists who kill innocent people in pursuit of their ideological goals."
thanks for the reassurance, asshole. Seriously, he has to say that?I heard this on the radio and thought of all the innocents the yanks have wiped out since 9/11 as "collateral damage" in pursuit of their ideological goals, and oil, in Iraq.
Also, watching the crowds of people in the US cheering and yahooing, they look very much like crowds in muslim parts of the world behaving the same way at the demise of US forces. The only thing missing is the AK47's being fired into the air, although I haven't seen footage from the redneck states where they're probably doing just that with M16's.
Just a couple of observations.
far queue
2nd May 2011, 18:27
...there are a thousand bin ladens out there...his unlimited wealth and charisma is easily duplicated...its called politics and the quest for power...the nutters who are incensced by his demise are already generating the next one...he may be in Bradford or Leeds, right now...I think I see your code :D
pzkpfw
2nd May 2011, 18:42
Of course it won't suddenly stop the bastards.
BUT if enough of the guys at the top (who send the 12 year old boys to be the suicide bombers) get offed, then eventually there might be no one left who wants to be the guy at the top.
AND as long as they keep making the "best" or "smartest" or "most popular" guys the leaders, and the leaders keep geeting hit (hopefully more often than we've just seen) then they may eventually run out of the "best" or "smartest" or "most popular" guys.
In any case, isolationism and non-intervention isn't going to help.
mashman
2nd May 2011, 18:50
perhaps Osama Bin Lady wasn't the leader to start with. Just the guy who put his neck on the line. If I was leading that sort of "resistance" I wouldn't wanna appear on TV for that very reason :shit:
Crasherfromwayback
2nd May 2011, 18:52
It's ludicrous to think that someone of Bin Laden's intellect and standing would not have groomed someone to immediately take his place - knowing that he was the world's most wanted man.
Doesn't mean it's not a good thing the cunt's dead.
Katman
2nd May 2011, 18:58
Doesn't mean it's not a good thing the cunt's dead.
I don't disagree.
I'm just saying - hang on to your hats.
Elysium
2nd May 2011, 18:59
It's ludicrous to think that someone of Bin Laden's intellect and standing would not have groomed someone to immediately take his place - knowing that he was the world's most wanted man.
I'm pretty sure the CIA is thinking the same thing, just waiting for the next line to announce himself.
Genestho
2nd May 2011, 19:06
Of course it won't suddenly stop the bastards.
BUT if enough of the guys at the top (who send the 12 year old boys to be the suicide bombers) get offed, then eventually there might be no one left who wants to be the guy at the top.
AND as long as they keep making the "best" or "smartest" or "most popular" guys the leaders, and the leaders keep geeting hit (hopefully more often than we've just seen) then they may eventually run out of the "best" or "smartest" or "most popular" guys.
In any case, isolationism and non-intervention isn't going to help.
That's not how it works in their world though. They don't have to be the best or the smartest, they just have to be suicidal..
There are rewards to be had in Jihad - Holy War, with Allah and in their heaven.
Martyrdom inspires others to continue the work, that is why this is a "war" that could never be won as we - the west, know it.
jazfender
2nd May 2011, 19:10
I still can't shake the idea that one life in exchange for thousands can be considered justice.
YellowDog
2nd May 2011, 19:10
...there are a thousand bin ladens out there...his unlimited wealth and charisma is easily duplicated...its called politics and the quest for power...the nutters who are incensced by his demise are already generating the next one...he may be in Bradford or Leeds, right now...
I understand that Winston Peters is available :yes:
aprilia_RS250
2nd May 2011, 19:11
Wonder if he's shagging the 72 virgins or getting rammed by the devil himself...?
ellipsis
2nd May 2011, 19:14
I understand that Winston Peters is available :yes:
...can you imagine the state his beard would get into, after a big night on the piss and a couple of packets of smokes...
Number One
2nd May 2011, 19:18
I'm sure they are well sorted in terms of a succession plan...I shudder to think what's to come now that he's become a martyr...as was probably expected by him and his lot anyway
ellipsis
2nd May 2011, 19:20
I understand that Winston Peters is available :yes:
...but on the other hand, No-doze Truck Stop is a dead ringer for OBL already...it would save us the hassle of being terrorised by the kiffing tool if the Hone ,Bradford society got any foothold...
Edbear
2nd May 2011, 19:21
I'm sure they are well sorted in terms of a succession plan...I shudder to think what's to come now that he's become a martyr...as was probably expected by him and his lot anyway
With his background and education, I doubt he was in a hurry to become a martyr. He was more Western than many Westerners and we may never know the truth behind his actions and motivations.
Notable was that he was killed rather than captured.
Number One
2nd May 2011, 19:22
Notable was that he was killed rather than captured.
I doubt very much he would have allowed himself to be captured alive.
Not surprised to hear he was a hypocrite either...Dirty santa! I still lol at that
pzkpfw
2nd May 2011, 19:23
That's not how it works in their world though. They don't have to be the best or the smartest, they just have to be suicidal..
There are rewards to be had in Jihad - Holy War, with Allah and in their heaven.
Martyrdom inspires others to continue the work, that is why this is a "war" that could never be won as we - the west, know it.
Kind of missed my point.
Even groups like these need "leaders". People to make plans, people to organise and supply money, training, arms.
The leaders are not the guys who go out suiciding themselves. They get other people to do that. e.g. It wasn't Bin Laden flying the planes into the towers.
Sure, they've got plenty of young guys (and lately girls) with no sense of a future willing to go in a martydomy way. But, if you can keep up pressure on the leaders... it's got to help.
Bin Laden won't be the last "leader" of this group, but his death brings the end of the group closer.
Number One
2nd May 2011, 19:26
his death brings the end of the group closer.
Really? I suspect there are hundred more ready to take his place and then a hundred more behind that too.
Oblivion
2nd May 2011, 19:29
Really? I suspect there are hundred more ready to take his place and then a hundred more behind that too.
Exactly. Even in the unlikelihood that the group collapses, a new group will form in due course.
Genestho
2nd May 2011, 19:32
Kind of missed my point.
Even groups like these need "leaders". People to make plans, people to organise and supply money, training, arms.
The leaders are not the guys who go out suiciding themselves. They get other people to do that. e.g. It wasn't Bin Laden flying the planes into the towers.
Sure, they've got plenty of young guys (and lately girls) with no sense of a future willing to go in a martydomy way. But, if you can keep up pressure on the leaders... it's got to help.
Bin Laden won't be the last "leader" of this group, but his death brings the end of the group closer.
No I didn't, I think you may be under estimating the size of the extremist Muslim population and I don't just mean the ethnic variety either, there will be plenty more in due course if there isn't already..
Somewhere there is an SF soldier with a fooken HUGE story to tell about firing the shot.
Also, a good claim for the millions of reward money offered...
I'm sure they are well sorted in terms of a succession plan...I shudder to think what's to come now that he's become a martyr...
Probably not a lot.
His "middle management" structure has been systematically taken apart and replacements are hard to find. A lot of tallitubbies are now working for the druglords in Afganistan.
Indiana_Jones
2nd May 2011, 19:47
<iframe width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eFTLKWw542g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
And the world keeps turning
-Indy
Crasherfromwayback
2nd May 2011, 19:51
I don't disagree.
I'm just saying - hang on to your hats.
And I hear ya. I'm surprised nothing went down in London for the big day.
Oblivion
2nd May 2011, 19:52
And I hear ya. I'm surprised nothing went down in London for the big day.
Nothing obvious anyway. :whistle:
Carry on :innocent:
Crasherfromwayback
2nd May 2011, 19:54
Nothing obvious anyway. :whistle:
Carry on :innocent:
Tell ya what...I'd love to do white wees up Kate's front bum. Her sister is worth a squirt too.
Oblivion
2nd May 2011, 19:58
Tell ya what...I'd love to do white wees up Kate's front bum. Her sister is worth a squirt too.
Apparently her sister attracted more attention then she did :gob:
So, Point valid :niceone:
Crasherfromwayback
2nd May 2011, 20:20
Apparently her sister attracted more attention then she did :gob:
So, Point valid :niceone:
Share the love. One squirt each.
posts 75-79 = wtf???
so get this, the wussiest US presidency ever released the statement that Osama's body will be treated "in accordance to islamic law". What kinda crap is that? He should be deepfryed in bacon fat, fed to pigs, the pig shit should be collected to fertilize a field of grain, that should be harvested, mashed, fermented in to beer and served to the heros that finished off the bastard with a bullet to the head. The US govt loves to waste money so I suspect no less than this from them. Just think... if Osama was taken alive, dumbass nobel peace prize winning obama we be seeing to it that Osama be tried in a civilian court, probably in NYC, and defended by a team of lawyers given to him by the govt...
I thought he was dead already? Yeah this won't change anything, and agree its probably going to get worse:cry:
Didn't know Osama was such a genius tho. Somehow managed to get 2 planes to hit 3 towers and cause them to appear to fall as if in a controlled demolition... Oh wait
Don't think us armchair engineers really know what we're talking about, but these guys should:
http://www.ae911truth.org/
Crasherfromwayback
2nd May 2011, 21:10
Time to let the goats get their own back on the cunt. Tie his sorry ass face down with his bum in the air...
Wannabiker
2nd May 2011, 21:26
Thank god.
Now lets bring the kiwi troops home to clean up chch
Does CHCH haved a terrorist problem?? :blink:
jazfender
2nd May 2011, 21:31
Does CHCH haved a terrorist problem?? :blink:
Ken Ring... always with the beards.
Genestho
2nd May 2011, 22:10
Any obvious links between Osama and Obama......:shifty:
After all the posturing between Trump/Obama in the last week over the birth certificate, and then the public P/T at the awards show - how about the then apparent co-incidence of interrupting Trump's show to announce Osama's death..
Any co-incidence that the death was last week, but announcement was only made..AFTER, the royal wedding?? (Oh..I know I know - clutching at straws here..:facepalm: :lol:)
Buried at Sea already????? :scratch: EDIT: Or is he???
Too many unanswered questions!! :corn:
Edit: Having a laugh, although......
Any obvious links between Osama and Obama......:shifty:
After all the posturing between Trump/Obama in the last week over the birth certificate, and then the public P/T at the awards show - how about the then apparent co-incidence of interrupting Trump's show to announce Osama's death..
Any co-incidence that the death was last week, but announcement was only made..AFTER, the royal wedding?? (Oh..I know I know - clutching at straws here..:facepalm: :lol:)
Buried at Sea already????? :scratch:
Too many unanswered questions!! :corn:
Edit: Having a laugh, although......
Yup! Definitely some male bovine excrement!!
short-circuit
2nd May 2011, 22:39
I heard this on the radio and thought of all the innocents the yanks have wiped out since 9/11 as "collateral damage" in pursuit of their ideological goals, and oil, in Iraq.
Also, watching the crowds of people in the US cheering and yahooing, they look very much like crowds in muslim parts of the world behaving the same way at the demise of US forces. The only thing missing is the AK47's being fired into the air, although I haven't seen footage from the redneck states where they're probably doing just that with M16's.
Just a couple of observations.
The only decent post in here - duly blinged
World hide and seek Champion 2001-2011
Berries
2nd May 2011, 23:14
World hide and seek Champion 2001-2010
Fixed that for you.
posts 75-79 = wtf???
so get this, the wussiest US presidency ever released the statement that Osama's body will be treated "in accordance to islamic law". What kinda crap is that? He should be deepfryed in bacon fat, fed to pigs, the pig shit should be collected to fertilize a field of grain, that should be harvested, mashed, fermented in to beer and served to the heros that finished off the bastard with a bullet to the head. The US govt loves to waste money so I suspect no less than this from them. Just think... if Osama was taken alive, dumbass nobel peace prize winning obama we be seeing to it that Osama be tried in a civilian court, probably in NYC, and defended by a team of lawyers given to him by the govt...
You got a purty mouth there boy, I bet you can squeal like a pig
sil3nt
3rd May 2011, 14:20
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=173_1304363717
allycatz
3rd May 2011, 14:44
I hope his 13 virgins are as dry as a nun's nasty....
I hope his 13 virgins are as dry as a nun's nasty....
How do you know they're girls...
oneofsix
3rd May 2011, 15:02
I hope his 13 virgins are as dry as a nun's nasty....
Only 13? He had nearly that many wifes didn't he? I think he was expecting more than 13 virgins
allycatz
3rd May 2011, 15:02
How do you know they're girls...
Whatever/ whoever the oriface, I hope its not pleasant :bleh:
oneofsix
3rd May 2011, 15:03
How do you know they're girls...
or even human
Crasherfromwayback
3rd May 2011, 15:04
or even human
Doubt that would worry him.
Elysium
3rd May 2011, 16:15
Have there been any pics of the body released at all?
Oblivion
3rd May 2011, 16:44
Have there been any pics of the body released at all?
No, but apparently there is one of where he was shot.
Also, the body was disposed of at sea. I don't think any photos were taken, to prevent a shrine being made at that spot
He has been dead quite a few times already...
Paul in NZ
4th May 2011, 07:39
Dont get me wrong - I'm not worried about him meeting an untimely end at all. Live by the sword die by the sword and I'm sure he knew sooner or later it would come to this.... What does sit a little more uneasily with me is that the USA can enter another country, un invited, kill a bunch of people and leave without so much as a 'sorry about the mess'... Yes - they are allies and yes it is a wierd place not at all like here but imagine how you would feel if a carrier turned up off hawkes bay, flew a mission to Palmerston North, killed a few chaps and flew off with the bodies...
What scares me most of all is that they are very proud of killing him without a trial and away from a theatre of war (arguable). Sure, covert assasination has been practised for ever by the larger countries but if you one bit of good news is you killed someone its not a sign of great health for a community surely? I mean its not up there with landing on the moon or the cure for cancer is it? Maybe the days of lofty goals and the advancement of man are behind us - and thats genuinely sad...
Still - once he threw that stone at the cops, his fate was sealed.... silly boy...
Dadpole
4th May 2011, 07:45
imagine how you would feel if a carrier turned up off hawkes bay, flew a mission to Palmerston North, killed a few chaps and flew off with the bodies...
Surely the world would be a better place?
Paul in NZ
4th May 2011, 08:13
Surely the world would be a better place?
Well - I probably have to give you that.....
oneofsix
4th May 2011, 08:23
Dont get me wrong - I'm not worried about him meeting an untimely end at all. Live by the sword die by the sword and I'm sure he knew sooner or later it would come to this.... What does sit a little more uneasily with me is that the USA can enter another country, un invited, kill a bunch of people and leave without so much as a 'sorry about the mess'... Yes - they are allies and yes it is a wierd place not at all like here but imagine how you would feel if a carrier turned up off hawkes bay, flew a mission to Palmerston North, killed a few chaps and flew off with the bodies...
What scares me most of all is that they are very proud of killing him without a trial and away from a theatre of war (arguable). Sure, covert assasination has been practised for ever by the larger countries but if you one bit of good news is you killed someone its not a sign of great health for a community surely? I mean its not up there with landing on the moon or the cure for cancer is it? Maybe the days of lofty goals and the advancement of man are behind us - and thats genuinely sad...
Still - once he threw that stone at the cops, his fate was sealed.... silly boy...
How about instead of a group of guys flying into Palmerston North we use the example of a group blowing up a ship in Auckland, oh shit that was done wasn't it.:shutup: And the ship wasn't armed or supporting armed conflict.
He was at war and Pakistan was supposedly an ally of the USA. A bit like the desert fox type operations, those were acceptable but the German victims could argue they were removed from the theater of war sitting way back in the supply depot. Osama had been tried in abstention and knew that no matter where he was he was the front line. He also could have surrendered if a trial was important.
allycatz
4th May 2011, 08:28
The whole buried at sea bizzo is a little weird and so quickly as well....so I reckon the rumour that he was a CIA insider is probs right and he has been pulled from the operation, lost the nappy off his head, shaved his beard and now is on a witness protection programme in Eketahuna:shutup:
oneofsix
4th May 2011, 08:31
The whole buried at sea bizzo is a little weird and so quickly as well....so I reckon the rumour that he was a CIA insider is probs right and he has been pulled from the operation, lost the nappy off his head, shaved his beard and now is on a witness protection programme in Eketahuna:shutup:
OH ok, I thought he would be serving in the Kebab van in the square in Palmerston North.
Paul in NZ
4th May 2011, 08:38
The whole buried at sea bizzo is a little weird and so quickly as well....so I reckon the rumour that he was a CIA insider is probs right and he has been pulled from the operation, lost the nappy off his head, shaved his beard and now is on a witness protection programme in Eketahuna:shutup:
Christ - clean shaven? He will stand out like a sore thumb there
Edbear
4th May 2011, 08:43
Dont get me wrong - I'm not worried about him meeting an untimely end at all. Live by the sword die by the sword and I'm sure he knew sooner or later it would come to this.... What does sit a little more uneasily with me is that the USA can enter another country, un invited, kill a bunch of people and leave without so much as a 'sorry about the mess'... Yes - they are allies and yes it is a wierd place not at all like here but imagine how you would feel if a carrier turned up off hawkes bay, flew a mission to Palmerston North, killed a few chaps and flew off with the bodies...
What scares me most of all is that they are very proud of killing him without a trial and away from a theatre of war (arguable). Sure, covert assasination has been practised for ever by the larger countries but if you one bit of good news is you killed someone its not a sign of great health for a community surely? I mean its not up there with landing on the moon or the cure for cancer is it? Maybe the days of lofty goals and the advancement of man are behind us - and thats genuinely sad...
Still - once he threw that stone at the cops, his fate was sealed.... silly boy...
OH ok, I thought he would be serving in the Kebab van in the square in Palmerston North.
Hmmmm... I can smell a conspiracy here... :blink:
oneofsix
4th May 2011, 08:47
Hmmmm... I can smell a conspiracy here... :blink:
:yes: thats why Ahmed Zaoui came to NZ :shutup: :corn:
:yes: thats why Ahmed Zaoui came to NZ :shutup: :corn:
Aha! But can you tell us...
1. He knew that Osama would come here eventually, and Ahmed came early to buy the kebab stand and get it all set up first?
...or...
2. Ahmed needed the extra time to gain his NZ pilot's licence, so he could hire a Cessna, which he planned to fly into the kebab stall once Obama was working it?
oneofsix
4th May 2011, 09:06
Aha! But can you tell us...
1. He knew that Osama would come here eventually, and Ahmed came early to buy the kebab stand and get it all set up first?
...or...
2. Ahmed needed the extra time to gain his NZ pilot's licence, so he could hire a Cessna, which he planned to fly into the kebab stall once Obama was working it?
1. Osama, 2. Obama. Jeeze who we killing here? Or are they the same person? Have you just let slip the real secret in this conspiracy MSTRS? you had better watch your back now the CIA will be after you.
Nah Achmed set up the Kebab stand and arranged for the cross to be removed from the Palmerston North war memorial clock so Osama would have somewhere to work comfortably and plan his next attack, an LPG powered kebab cart explosion under the Beehive during Obama's state visit :drinkup:
allycatz
4th May 2011, 10:03
1. Osama, 2. Obama. Jeeze who we killing here? Or are they the same person? Have you just let slip the real secret in this conspiracy MSTRS? you had better watch your back now the CIA will be after you.
Nah Achmed set up the Kebab stand and arranged for the cross to be removed from the Palmerston North war memorial clock so Osama would have somewhere to work comfortably and plan his next attack, an LPG powered kebab cart explosion under the Beehive during Obama's state visit :drinkup:
Actually I think I just spotted him going into the kebab shop on Kapiti Rd when I was getting petrol next door.....
1. Osama, 2. Obama. Jeeze who we killing here?
:facepalm::Oops:
Maybe I knew on some subliminal level that Obama will need to do something for a living after his presidency ends...and Ahmed wanted revenge?
hey, so now that Osama is dead, can we all agree that water-boarding works and critics calling for it not to be used anymore are responsible for any more major attacks on the US? :innocent:
Waterboarding the Kelik Shea Muhamed guy in gitmo provided the intel to find Osama.
oneofsix
4th May 2011, 11:11
:facepalm::Oops:
Maybe I knew on some subliminal level that Obama will need to do something for a living after his presidency ends...and Ahmed wanted revenge?
:yes: I'm sure he rides a 650 :scooter:
Bin Laden gets to the after life.
He asks Saddam, "Where are all the wonderful things I was promised, the seventy two virgins, the wealth, the paradise?"
Saddam replies, "Yeah, no one seems to know who started that rumour!"
oneofsix
4th May 2011, 15:27
Bin Laden was unarmed when he was confronted by US commandos at his Pakistani hideout but tried to resist the assault, the White House said on Tuesday (local time) as new details emerged about the audacious raid that killed the world's most wanted terrorist.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/osama-bin-laden/4959123/US-considers-Osama-bin-Laden-corpse-photo-release
So how was he resisting that required him to be shot in the head if he was unarmed?
Bin Laden was unarmed when he was confronted by US commandos at his Pakistani hideout but tried to resist the assault, the White House said on Tuesday (local time) as new details emerged about the audacious raid that killed the world's most wanted terrorist.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/osama-bin-laden/4959123/US-considers-Osama-bin-Laden-corpse-photo-release
So how was he resisting that required him to be shot in the head if he was unarmed?
All those that worked in the Twin Towers didn't stand much of a chance either.
Jackal
4th May 2011, 16:52
I hear Elton John is releasing a new version of one of his songs in light of these recent events. He has called it, "Sandels in the bin"!
Paul in NZ
4th May 2011, 16:54
All those that worked in the Twin Towers didn't stand much of a chance either.
Thats true but John Wayne is supposed to go through hell and high water to get the bad guy to the trial so he can be found guilty. This is an old fashioned lynching thats becoming sop - very sad...
superman
4th May 2011, 16:55
"In unrelated news Chuck Norris has just returned from a holiday in Pakistan"
jazfender
4th May 2011, 17:59
So how was he resisting that required him to be shot in the head if he was unarmed?
I think most people would shoot Bin Laden if he ran towards them, armed or not.
lakedaemonian
4th May 2011, 18:48
Dont get me wrong - I'm not worried about him meeting an untimely end at all. Live by the sword die by the sword and I'm sure he knew sooner or later it would come to this.... What does sit a little more uneasily with me is that the USA can enter another country, un invited, kill a bunch of people and leave without so much as a 'sorry about the mess'... Yes - they are allies and yes it is a wierd place not at all like here but imagine how you would feel if a carrier turned up off hawkes bay, flew a mission to Palmerston North, killed a few chaps and flew off with the bodies...
What scares me most of all is that they are very proud of killing him without a trial and away from a theatre of war (arguable). Sure, covert assasination has been practised for ever by the larger countries but if you one bit of good news is you killed someone its not a sign of great health for a community surely? I mean its not up there with landing on the moon or the cure for cancer is it? Maybe the days of lofty goals and the advancement of man are behind us - and thats genuinely sad...
Still - once he threw that stone at the cops, his fate was sealed.... silly boy...
Consider a bit of revisionist history:
It's 1955, ten years after the end of WWII, and we're all still supposedly hunting for Hitler.
The Russians run an op and find Hitler hiding in plain sight immediately adjacent to (pick 1) US Military Academy, West Point or Royal Military Academy, Sandhurt.
Surrounded by thousands of current military and prior service veterans.
That wouldn't just be embarrassing, that would be impossible.....unless of course he was harbored....which appears to be the case with Bin Laden.
So maybe rather than accusing the US of invading a sovereign nation to shoot the world's most wanted terrorist in the face, it might be worth asking why the Pakistanis decided to harbor the very person they claim they have been hunting alongside the US and had no knowledge of his whereabouts.
So Pakistan is a failing failure than fails....either Pakistan's senior leadership in the Army/ISI/Government is full of sh!t...or they are the worst players of "Where's Wally" like, ever.......
To make matters EVEN worse.....the area Bin Laden was nailed was within a military cantonment.
The Pakistan Military Academy is just 2km North of Bin Laden's playboy mansion....easily within an area that would possess static vehicle and pedestrian access/control points, roving vehicle and pedestrian check points, all construction/residency in the area would be subject to security force vetting to avoid properties being used as operational/logistic safe houses for terror attacks in the region.
It just doesn't add up for the Pakistanis.
Osama being dead isn't the story......a slight morale boost in a long unconventional war with no likely to be perceived end.
The Pakistanis being caught out in front of the entire world IS THE STORY.
Front line of Cold War 2.
This could represent a politically expedient opportunity for the US to cut/run from Afghanistan and declare mission accomplished.
Bin Laden's death is of little political value in 2012 election runup.....but if the US government telegraphs a pull out THAT would have potentially huge political value.
And once the US presence in Afghanistan is reduced or removed...reliance on Pakistan for logistical support for the Afghan mission dries up, and Pakistan gets kicked to the curb like a 5 dollar whore.
The US is going to shift heavily to India....and drop Pakistan like a hot potato as soon as humanly possible...Pakistan isn't part of the solution...it's a large part of the problem.
Cold War 2 front lines...I'd just about bet a cold pint that Pakistan will both the cause and the center of the next truly significant inter-regional war.
As to your point of WHY NOT put Bin Laden on trial...my response is WHY?
Why voluntarily give him and his cause more airtime?
Why voluntarily create a perfect media storm?
Why voluntarily give an enemy combatant the priviledge and benefits of the civilian law enforcement and judicial system?
Shoot him in the face and the worst you have to deal with is looking at dope smoking know it all Uni students wearing Che Bin Laden Guevara T-shirts for the next 50 years.
I'm not a fan of the celebration going on....and I think if you look closely most are the redneck right leaning versions of the left wing kids who wear the Che shirts...morons with little understanding of what's going on.
I haven't seen any NY Cops, NY Firemen, those who lost family on 9/11, or current/prior servicemen and women acting like idiots.....to me they look like a doctor has just told them a loved one's cancerous tumor has been removed....but with still a long road ahead to remission and recovery.
carbonhed
4th May 2011, 19:25
Lots of stuff
+1 on that. Fuck knows how you deal with Pakistan short of letting India really fuck them over... but Bin Laden... shot in the face and tossed into the Arabian Gulf works for me.
Winston001
5th May 2011, 08:11
This has probably been mentioned already but I have to shake my head in wonder at the stumbling by the United States.
1. There are now at least two official versions of the death of Bin Ladin. Firstly he was armed and fighting back, plus one of his wives was killed. But wait - second, he was unarmed but not going peacefully - surprise surprise. And the wife was shot in the leg but is fine.
If - and it isn't clear - but if there was a live video feed then the US administration should have known exactly what happened immediately. If not, they sure as heck knew once the SEALS had returned to base. There wasn't exactly a confusing mob of hundreds involved.
2. Despite billions and billions spent on high technology including stealth capability, one of the helicopters crashed and had to be destroyed. WTF???
It is an echo of the terrible events in the Iranian desert (Operation Eagle Claw) in April 1980. That was the aborted helicoptor mission to rescue the American hostages from Iran. Eight Delta soldiers died. Tragic.
So I'm somewhat bemused about American military capability and their government's ability to get the facts right.
oneofsix
5th May 2011, 08:24
I think most people would shoot Bin Laden if he ran towards them, armed or not.
yeah and I can't say I'm seriously upset but it does seem they went to some lengths to keep everyone else they could alive, even pulling them clear before destroying the helicopter when they were is a rush to evacuate. Also did he run towards them? His wife did and only got a bullet in the leg according to the later reports. Seems like it was a kill or capture with the emphasis on kill or maybe emphasis on Osama other targets just neutralise so you can get Osama or as some suggest has he been dead for years?? :drinkup:
I don't think he was killed to stop him talking, we all know he was USA trained and bank rolled to begin with, it is not a secret.
Edbear
5th May 2011, 08:36
yeah and I can't say I'm seriously upset but it does seem they went to some lengths to keep everyone else they could alive, even pulling them clear before destroying the helicopter when they were is a rush to evacuate. Also did he run towards them? His wife did and only got a bullet in the leg according to the later reports. Seems like it was a kill or capture with the emphasis on kill or maybe emphasis on Osama other targets just neutralise so you can get Osama or as some suggest has he been dead for years?? :drinkup:
I don't think he was killed to stop him talking, we all know he was USA trained and bank rolled to begin with, it is not a secret.
Sounds like he'd outlived his usefulness...:innocent:
oneofsix
5th May 2011, 08:48
Sounds like he'd outlived his usefulness...:innocent:
+1
or was more use dead than alive. Can't help think the timing was just a bit too good. A whole lot of Taliban escape at the start of their spring campaign, Obama is fighting for re-election and he hadn't achieved a notable victory to justify the peace prize and now the worlds "number 1" terrorist is history.
lakedaemonian
5th May 2011, 09:54
This has probably been mentioned already but I have to shake my head in wonder at the stumbling by the United States.
1. There are now at least two official versions of the death of Bin Ladin. Firstly he was armed and fighting back, plus one of his wives was killed. But wait - second, he was unarmed but not going peacefully - surprise surprise. And the wife was shot in the leg but is fine.
If - and it isn't clear - but if there was a live video feed then the US administration should have known exactly what happened immediately. If not, they sure as heck knew once the SEALS had returned to base. There wasn't exactly a confusing mob of hundreds involved.
2. Despite billions and billions spent on high technology including stealth capability, one of the helicopters crashed and had to be destroyed. WTF???
It is an echo of the terrible events in the Iranian desert (Operation Eagle Claw) in April 1980. That was the aborted helicoptor mission to rescue the American hostages from Iran. Eight Delta soldiers died. Tragic.
So I'm somewhat bemused about American military capability and their government's ability to get the facts right.
I would agree that the public relations/media operations of the US Administration has been poorly managed.
I think it's likely the raid was recorded and probably securely distributed from lots of angles(including individual soldiers on the ground) video/audio/thermal/whatnot. But even having the best communications gear is no absolute guarantee than communications will operate flawlessly like in a Hollywood movie. There probably were hundreds involved to make the raid possible, but where I suspect the weak leak resides in the many Obama Administration spin control specialists....so I think this relates to poor communication to the PUBLIC, not necessarily poor communication from the military to the civilian adminstration....IF there was, I'm sure the politicians would have hung them out to publicly dry by now :)
I couldn't disagree more about your comments in regards to Desert One.
For starters, Desert One was a failure in that the loss of rotary wing support led to the mission being scrubbed and the accident on recovery back to friendly lines led to the deaths of 8.
Secondly, Desert One led to the development of a dedicated special operations command and dedicated special operations support units to allow operations such as that to have a better chance of operational success rather than risk of failure from a patchwork of resources and units that had poor interoperability and little cross training.
Finally, even with a major failure of one of the many human and mechanical moving parts in this operational machine that resulted in the loss of a single helicopter the folks on the ground adapted and successfully completed the mission.
So I disagree about the Desert One analogy beyond recognizing that without Desert One the command running the show, the units involved, the gear developed and fielded, and most importantly the expensive lessons learned from it might have prevented the successful OBL raid from being possible with a high likelihood of success.
lakedaemonian
5th May 2011, 10:00
+1
or was more use dead than alive. Can't help think the timing was just a bit too good. A whole lot of Taliban escape at the start of their spring campaign, Obama is fighting for re-election and he hadn't achieved a notable victory to justify the peace prize and now the worlds "number 1" terrorist is history.
Personally, I don't think OBL has much value to a 2012 US Presidential elction campaign.
If it was "staged" as some suggest....it would be done FAR closer to the election cycle....especially with the short attention span of the average voter.
Also, if it was "staged" it would surely have been done in a way that would be less embarrassing to the Pakistanis.
Because it couldn't possibly be more embarrassing for the Pakistanis than if they found OBL living under the Pakistani President's desk.
He was found in a cantonment that contained the heart of the Pakistani military: the Pakistan Military Academy from which pretty much ALL Pakistani leadership attend, and also within a secure community in which resides a large chunk of retired senior Pakistani military officers.
Pakistan was "pantsed" in front of the entire world....not exactly something something that would be staged due to the unintended consequences.
I do think the killing of OBL, just might be the opportunity the current administration is looking for to "declare victory" or "mission accomplished" and pull out or draw down in Afghanistan...which very well could play a big part in 2012 electioneering in 12-18 months time.
oneofsix
5th May 2011, 10:10
Personally, I don't think OBL has much value to a 2012 US Presidential elction campaign.
If it was "staged" as some suggest....it would be done FAR closer to the election cycle....especially with the short attention span of the average voter.
Also, if it was "staged" it would surely have been done in a way that would be less embarrassing to the Pakistanis.
Because it couldn't possibly be more embarrassing for the Pakistanis than if they found OBL living under the Pakistani President's desk.
He was found in a cantonment that contained the heart of the Pakistani military: the Pakistan Military Academy from which pretty much ALL Pakistani leadership attend, and also within a secure community in which resides a large chunk of retired senior Pakistani military officers.
Pakistan was "pantsed" in front of the entire world....not exactly something something that would be staged due to the unintended consequences.
I do think the killing of OBL, just might be the opportunity the current administration is looking for to "declare victory" or "mission accomplished" and pull out or draw down in Afghanistan...which very well could play a big part in 2012 electioneering in 12-18 months time.
agreed it is a bit early for the average voter to play a part in the final vote but as you point out it sets the stage for pull out talk closer to the vote. Having Pakistan "pantsed" will possibly come back into play later as well, perhaps with a push across the border against the Taliban to further enable the pull out.
lakedaemonian
5th May 2011, 10:22
yeah and I can't say I'm seriously upset but it does seem they went to some lengths to keep everyone else they could alive, even pulling them clear before destroying the helicopter when they were is a rush to evacuate. Also did he run towards them? His wife did and only got a bullet in the leg according to the later reports. Seems like it was a kill or capture with the emphasis on kill or maybe emphasis on Osama other targets just neutralise so you can get Osama or as some suggest has he been dead for years?? :drinkup:
I don't think he was killed to stop him talking, we all know he was USA trained and bank rolled to begin with, it is not a secret.
I pushback at the many internet conspiracy theories about OBL.
Did the US and OBL have parallel interests in the 80's in trying to bleed the Soviet Union?
Absolutely
Just as the US dollar invested in supporting the Muj was matched dollar for dollar by the Saudis...largely funneled thru the Pakistani ISI as condition of access and support from Pakistan.
Did the US "train and bankroll" OBL?
I seriously doubt it.....this is more internet meme than fact.
OBL was successsful in Pakistan/Afghanistan because he had his own money....much like the wealthy elite Poms who went off the The Great War for some manly adventure.
OBL built a reputation on having his own capital from his family's great wealth and acted the part of logistician. Which is an often overlooked and critically important role in any conflict. He'd be better off with training from FEDEX than the CIA in terms of keeping the Muj chocker full of beans and bullets.
Did the CIA and other western orgs fund/support some bad guys?
Surely...and some decent efforts went into trying to control and remedy this.....one example would be the efforts to recover Stinger MANPADs from the players after the conflict ended(probably to prevent them being used against us in the west someday before expiry).
Probably the biggest failure of the US that is widely regarded and factually based is the proxy war and outsourcing done during the Soviet Occupation. Because Pakistan was basically handed the vast bulk of the money and weapons it was Pakistan that could shape the Soviet occupation resistance to it's own ends.....which included post occupation influence and control and creation of the Taliban to provide strategic depth in it's perpetual conflict with India.
There's a lot the US has done wrong in the region....the largest part being the neglect of a Cold War battlefield chessboard abandoned and allowed to fester into platform for ambitious terrorist attacks....so easy to find realistic fault for neglecting to clean up a mess it helpe to create.
But Osama as a CIA trained and funded Jason Bourne James Bond super assasin is more internet meme, than unfortunate truth.
As far as conspiracy theories go, Im stunned that out of all 76 flavors about 9/11 and Bin Laden that no one seems to look to a simpler more reasonable explanation:
That the 9/11 attacks probably required a level of training, logistical support, and operational management that is almost exclusively the realm of a nation state...much like the Mumbai Massacre which was clearly backed by the ISI pulling the strings of the LeT they created(ISI officers are recorded as being terrorist handlers/operation controllers).
It seems like the finger's been pointed everywhere BUT the ISI.....personally, I think Pakistan is, often knowingly, at the centre of the mess of the last 10 years.
Past performance is indicative of future performance and I think if you have alook at Pakistan's actions since Christmas 1979 I think it paints an interesting picture.
Just my 0.02c
lakedaemonian
5th May 2011, 10:26
agreed it is a bit early for the average voter to play a part in the final vote but as you point out it sets the stage for pull out talk closer to the vote. Having Pakistan "pantsed" will possibly come back into play later as well, perhaps with a push across the border against the Taliban to further enable the pull out.
Yeah it's going to get interesting over the next few years in the region....I reckon it could go a couple ways...most of them not good in my opinion :(
I do think that when the US pulls out of Afghanistan.....it's policy towards Pakistan could change dramatically....I think that's becoming apparent to folks watching that the "friendship" between the two countries(as if countries can be friends) is barely even covering the superficial bases anymore.
Interesting times ahead!
oneofsix
5th May 2011, 10:33
Yeah it's going to get interesting over the next few years in the region....I reckon it could go a couple ways...most of them not good in my opinion :(
I do think that when the US pulls out of Afghanistan.....it's policy towards Pakistan could change dramatically....I think that's becoming apparent to folks watching that the "friendship" between the two countries(as if countries can be friends) is barely even covering the superficial bases anymore.
Interesting times ahead!
your post above makes some interesting points about Pakistan. I don't think the 9/11 attacks absolutely require a nation states involvement but Pakistan would have benefited from the Mumbai attacks, its not like India and Pakistan have been fighting a war or anything :innocent:
If the US pulls out of Afghanistan why do they need to stay friendly with Pakistan, they would do better being friendlier with India where their database developers and helpdesk services come from :shutup:
Very interesting time ahead indeed.
Winston001
5th May 2011, 11:26
I couldn't disagree more about your comments in regards to Desert One.
For starters, Desert One was a failure in that the loss of rotary wing support led to the mission being scrubbed and the accident on recovery back to friendly lines led to the deaths of 8.
Secondly, Desert One led to the development of a dedicated special operations command..
Finally, even with a major failure of one of the many human and mechanical moving parts in this operational machine that resulted in the loss of a single helicopter the folks on the ground adapted and successfully completed the mission.
Well said. The sandstorm in Desert One didn't help either.
Its still surprising that a helicopter should fail at such a critical point given the months of preparation for the action. Mind you, the Pakistanis may have loosed off an RPG or somesuch from the nearby base in a moment of panic.
Or...things just go wrong. A successful mission despite that which bears out your point. I assume they had a couple of backup machines in the air to get everyone out.
The Stranger
5th May 2011, 13:02
This has probably been mentioned already but I have to shake my head in wonder at the stumbling by the United States.
1. There are now at least two official versions of the death of Bin Ladin. Firstly he was armed and fighting back, plus one of his wives was killed. But wait - second, he was unarmed but not going peacefully - surprise surprise. And the wife was shot in the leg but is fine.
If - and it isn't clear - but if there was a live video feed then the US administration should have known exactly what happened immediately. If not, they sure as heck knew once the SEALS had returned to base. There wasn't exactly a confusing mob of hundreds involved.
2. Despite billions and billions spent on high technology including stealth capability, one of the helicopters crashed and had to be destroyed. WTF???
It is an echo of the terrible events in the Iranian desert (Operation Eagle Claw) in April 1980. That was the aborted helicoptor mission to rescue the American hostages from Iran. Eight Delta soldiers died. Tragic.
So I'm somewhat bemused about American military capability and their government's ability to get the facts right.
Come on they deserve some credit, they executed the WTC attacks flawlessly and duped the majority of the world into believing it was some Arabs
"In unrelated news Chuck Norris has just returned from a holiday in Pakistan"
His jawline will be in the next plane as it could not all fit on one
I haven't seen any NY Cops, NY Firemen, those who lost family on 9/11
The biggest reality check I had when I went to NY and CT. The people over there are not against Bin Laden etc. They almost expected it, like a tsunami or hurricane. One guy even said to me, "If you poke anyone with stick long enough, they will eventually spin around and smack you in the face".
They were pissed at the Govt for letting things get to that point though. Also many of the conspiracy theorist re:911 are from NYC.
Paul in NZ
5th May 2011, 17:14
So maybe rather than accusing the US of invading a sovereign nation to shoot the world's most wanted terrorist in the face, it might be worth asking why the Pakistanis decided to harbor the very person they claim they have been hunting alongside the US and had no knowledge of his whereabouts.
.
Well - to be fair I said entering, not invading....
The point I'm making is that the USA is at a moral crossroads. Its one thing to say you are the white hatted good guys and use words like 'justice' but summary executions are not justice. John Wayne does not cross the desert to shoot the unarmed bad guy, he hauls him off to the 3;10 to Yuma for the judge to shoot him in the head.
Lobbing missiles at gaddafi personally is also a bit 'off' for a white hat when war hasnt been declared... has a sort of not quite cricket whiff to it...
Getting in a flap when all these Arab countries suddenly seem full of younger folks wanting a vote (but not necessarily in favour of the USA) is going to be a BIT problem.
The crossroad is here. War has changed and the old concept of war and rules and the geneva convention etc dont apply. Sooner or later the USA will need to adopt a moral code or define a line they wont cross or they run the risk of being worse than those they are protecting us all from.... Its not inspirational at all....
The USA really needs to find some high moral ground and under Obama I hoped they would. Now that Dr Evil is dead I hope they can find the path...
NighthawkNZ
5th May 2011, 17:54
237986
2 down... 1 to go...
The USA really needs to find some high moral ground and under Obama I hoped they would. Now that Dr Evil is dead I hope they can find the path...
Fat chance
Everyone knows the rules don't apply to America. How could they not know? .......
But it doesn't matter, because the US creates the rules on-the-fly; just makes it up as they go along. So, when Bin Laden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden) gets whacked in the latest bloody incident of military gangsterism, no one utters a peep of protest, because everyone knows that the US owns the world and the rest of us are just guests.
far queue
5th May 2011, 19:22
... So I'm somewhat bemused about American military capability and their government's ability to get the facts right.
Reminds me of a txt I received a couple of days ago - "US killed Osama Bin Laden - dumb bastard must have disguised himself as a British soldier"
HenryDorsetCase
6th May 2011, 10:20
You are fuckin shittin me. Hone is looking at it from the view of Bin Lady's family and his followers. I reckon his retraction is the most insulting thing that Hone has done to date, in my book anyway (not been here long). :facepalm: He should have stuck with his statement instead of bowing to the media perception that he is as bad as Bin Lady (the apology makes him look flakey, not the sentiment)... and all because he understands that some will view BL's departure as a loss. In regards to what I think, I hope Bin Lady died in utter agony and that it took a few hours to get there. He committed some attrocious acts on some very innocent people. But make no mistake. I understand that Bin Lady will be missed by those who knew him both as a person, and by those who believed in what he was doing... and if it is a Maori custom to not speak ill of the dead... at least Hone stuck to 1 of his principles.
he took at least one, more likely several rounds from whatever weapon the SEAL guy was carrying, so, unfortunately a very quick death. They dont become SEALs by being average shots.
mashman
6th May 2011, 10:32
he took at least one, more likely several rounds from whatever weapon the SEAL guy was carrying, so, unfortunately a very quick death. They dont become SEALs by being average shots.
I would have thought they'd also be better than average, ahem, interrogators too... guess there were a few million reasons to get it over and done with... hey ho, maybe they'll "try harder" when they capture the next one :)
HenryDorsetCase
6th May 2011, 12:02
I would have thought they'd also be better than average, ahem, interrogators too... guess there were a few million reasons to get it over and done with... hey ho, maybe they'll "try harder" when they capture the next one :)
time pressure and opportunity I'd guess. they had to land somewhere else, ditch one of the helo's fight their way to where he was, breach walls etc: they were on the ground twice as long as they expected to be and it sounds like faced much stiffer resistance. At the point where they confronted him thats the call the guy made. They did bring the body back with them too. (Ick)
I also saw on the news they bought out a bunch of computers, CD ROMs etc etc. thats gold.
We werent there, we'll never know.
mashman
6th May 2011, 12:14
We werent there, we'll never know.
Aye, I don't doubt for a minute that they just walked in there and escorted him from the premises... glad someone at least managed a version of that though :).
The sandstorm in Desert One didn't help either.
Neither did the bus load of locals that showed up.
Banditbandit
6th May 2011, 14:17
God MM thats the worst troll i have seen all day.:rofl:
I did find it funny how Hone said that OBL was fighting for his people when he is a Saudi and fighting a religious war.
I wil comment on that - and other things - I think Osama Bin Laden is a freedom fighter - "One man's terrosist is another man's freedom fighter".
The attack on the World Trade Centre was a political act. The refusal of the USA and others to see it as a polticial act is irrelevent. The fact that Bin Laden is a Saudi is irrelevent. "His people" are the Moselm world - the Islamic world is much more unified than the west realizes - he was fighting for what he beleives to be a just cause. Whether other people see that as a just cause is another issue.
As for John Key saying "murdered 3,000 people" ... how many innocent Iraqis and Afghanis has the US and other "murdered" or are they just "collateral damage"? It's a matter of perception and definition ... and the western world has removed violence as a poltical weapon ... I'm sorry but the rest of the world has not ... they still use violence to support regimes as well as the remove them .. violence is a much-used weapon in poltiical struggles in many many countries.
Following the first Gulf War the USA embargoed Iraq. Children were dying of common diseases easily fixed by cheap medicine, which the USA embargoed because of Saddam Hussein, his cronies and the regime. If I was an Iraqi father and my children died of common diseases because the US embargo meant they didn't get medicine I would probably be angry enough to fly a plane into the World Trade Centre ... AS a commentator said (with surprise and shock in his voice) "Why would they destroy these great symbols of Capitalism?" .. Well Hello ... there's you're answer right there ..
If I was living in Gaza and my wife and new baby about to be born (on the way to hospital because of complications) died in an ambulance at an Israeli checkpoint because the soldiers refused to let the ambulance through the checkpoint and made it wait for six hours I would be angry enough to kill Jews too ...
Ifr a foreign power did not like the Government of New Zealand and invaded to affect "regime change" I would certainly fight back ...
I reckon most of you here in those positions would also become angry and violent ... we are very lucky to live in this country and not have to face those issues.
But coming from the extreme left (unashamedly) I certainly see Bin Laden as a freedom fighter (more of an armchair reviolutionary than an actual fighter .. but the idea's the same).
BoristheBiter
6th May 2011, 14:27
I wil comment on that - and other things - I think Osama Bin Laden is a freedom fighter - "One man's terrosist is another man's freedom fighter".
The attack on the World Trade Centre was a political act. The refusal of the USA and others to see it as a polticial act is irrelevent. The fact that Bin Laden is a Saudi is irrelevent. "His people" are the Moselm world - the Islamic world is much more unified than the west realizes - he was fighting for what he beleives to be a just cause. Whether other people see that as a just cause is another issue.
As for John Key saying "murdered 3,000 people" ... how many innocent Iraqis and Afghanis has the US and other "murdered" or are they just "collateral damage"? It's a matter of perception and definition ... and the western world has removed violence as a poltical weapon ... I'm sorry but the rest of the world has not ... they still use violence to support regimes as well as the remove them .. violence is a much-used weapon in poltiical struggles in many many countries.
Following the first Gulf War the USA embargoed Iraq. Children were dying of common diseases easily fixed by cheap medicine, which the USA embargoed because of Saddam Hussein, his cronies and the regime. If I was an Iraqi father and my children died of common diseases because the US embargo meant they didn't get medicine I would probably be angry enough to fly a plane into the World Trade Centre ... AS a commentator said (with surprise and shock in his voice) "Why would they destroy these great symbols of Capitalism?" .. Well Hello ... there's you're answer right there ..
If I was living in Gaza and my wife and new baby about to be born (on the way to hospital because of complications) died in an ambulance at an Israeli checkpoint because the soldiers refused to let the ambulance through the checkpoint and made it wait for six hours I would be angry enough to kill Jews too ...
Ifr a foreign power did not like the Government of New Zealand and invaded to affect "regime change" I would certainly fight back ...
I reckon most of you here in those positions would also become angry and violent ... we are very lucky to live in this country and not have to face those issues.
But coming from the extreme left (unashamedly) I certainly see Bin Laden as a freedom fighter (more of an armchair reviolutionary than an actual fighter .. but the idea's the same).
Sorry all i read was blah blah blah.
HenryDorsetCase
6th May 2011, 14:28
Do not underestimate Hone for a moment, he is a very skilled political activist and becoming a very skilled politician.
Consider for a moment the most important attribute a politician needs to be successful.
To stay firmly focussed in the limelight ... "publicity"!
The adage: "The only bad publicity for a politician ... is no publicity".
Hone is the master of milking publicity!
Look at the way he (Hone) took control of the Brash "debate", despite his lack of academic comparison, he absolutely creamed Brash and simply used Sainsbury as if he owned him personally!
Like him or loath him, Hone is here to stay, underestimate him at your peril. :mellow:
I've got a crew of ex Navy SEALS inbound, he wont be a problem for long.
HenryDorsetCase
6th May 2011, 14:31
But coming from the extreme left (unashamedly) I certainly see Bin Laden as a freedom fighter (more of an armchair reviolutionary than an actual fighter .. but the idea's the same).
there's your problems right there:
the first is coming from the extreme left; and the second is equating "Armchair revolutionaries" with "actual fighters"
george formby
6th May 2011, 14:31
OBL was fighting to create a medieval Caliphate over the Muslim world. About as far as you can get from freedom. His actions were intended to provoke the West into conflict, bolstering his cause with the collateral damage inflicted on Muslims.
He failed, the Muslim world is in turmoil now because the people want to be like the West not fight it, they really are fighting for freedom, not religion.
On reflection, Hone is getting more like OBL everyday.
Banditbandit
6th May 2011, 14:34
Thought we all could have a laugh any way ...
http://ianstuart.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/7/4807875/6293873.jpg
Banditbandit
6th May 2011, 14:35
there's your problems right there:
the first is coming from the extreme left; and the second is equating "Armchair revolutionaries" with "actual fighters"
I kinda knew you'd say the first bit ...
I'm not confusing armchair revolutionaries with real fighters .. I'm suggesting that Bin Laden is an armchair revolutionary ...
Banditbandit
6th May 2011, 14:36
Sorry all i read was blah blah blah.
:rofl: we have some courses that might improve your literacy skills ...
Banditbandit
6th May 2011, 14:37
OBL was fighting to create a medieval Caliphate over the Muslim world. About as far as you can get from freedom. His actions were intended to provoke the West into conflict, bolstering his cause with the collateral damage inflicted on Muslims.
He failed, the Muslim world is in turmoil now because the people want to be like the West not fight it, they really are fighting for freedom, not religion.
On reflection, Hone is getting more like OBL everyday.
Maybe .. maybe not ... the current mess in the Middle East is interesting as yes, I think they are seeking true freedoms and democracy ...
But for me there is a much more fundamental question .. will the west allow them the freedom to NOT choose a democracy?
HenryDorsetCase
6th May 2011, 14:44
It was Syd Jackson (now dead) and his wife who visited Libya
did he get two in the head from a Navy SEAL?
HenryDorsetCase
6th May 2011, 14:46
Thought we all could have a laugh any way ...
http://ianstuart.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/7/4807875/6293873.jpg
this is awesome! :D
george formby
6th May 2011, 14:54
Maybe .. maybe not ... the current mess in the Middle East is interesting as yes, I think they are seeking true freedoms and democracy ...
But for me there is a much more fundamental question .. will the west allow them the freedom to NOT choose a democracy?
or, who is organised enough to fill the vacuum of deposed dictators? All the west cares about is sufficient stability to keep the petrol pumps flowing, as history & the regimes of the biggest oil producers show, how this is achieved is irrelevant.
Any hoo, Hone is definitely proving to be polarising which ultimately could be his down fall, their is not a lot of support for the fringe dwellers.
BoristheBiter
6th May 2011, 16:05
:rofl: we have some courses that might improve your literacy skills ...
I doubt it.
trustme
6th May 2011, 16:41
Maybe .. maybe not ... the current mess in the Middle East is interesting as yes, I think they are seeking true freedoms and democracy ...
But for me there is a much more fundamental question .. will the west allow them the freedom to NOT choose a democracy?
Ultimately the west has less influence than you might think. OBL & Al Queda had become an irrelevance in the middle east. The peoples quest for a say in how their countries & lives were run has bypassed him. Joe average in Libya or Egypt didn't start to protest because the west told them to. They did it because they were sick of oppressive regimes. OBL was offering more of the same.
Madmax
6th May 2011, 19:21
http://www.infowars.com/red-alert-government-had-osama-bin-laden-frozen-for-years/
I posted this in a different thread,I think this should be its home
:wacko:
Winston001
6th May 2011, 21:55
.. will the west allow them the freedom to NOT choose a democracy?
Well lets be clear - there are only limited options:
Totalitarianism - essentially the system which rules many countries eg. Zimbabwe, Syria
Theocracy - religious rule eg. Iran
Anarchy - no effective government eg. Somalia
Absolute Monarchy - rule by a King eg. Monaco, Saudi Arabia
HenryDorsetCase
6th May 2011, 22:02
Monarchy - rule by a King eg. Monaco, Saudi Arabia
Arent we a monarchy too?
oldrider
6th May 2011, 22:52
Arent we a monarchy too?
We prefer a "Claytons" monarchy and we are also very selective about it too! :confused:
Winston001
6th May 2011, 22:58
Don't be a nitpicker :D. Yes we are a constitutional monarchy with a Parliament democratically elected. Strictly, we are governed by the Executive Council which is presided over by the Governor-General. As you'll instantly recall from your Constitutional Law lectures ;)
There are lots of variations on the above systems but lets not get pedantic. For example, many of the totalitarian states are nominal democratic republics. However, unlike for example the USA, there is no time limit on the President and furthermore political opposition is ruthlessly suppressed by the government. So noone else gets a chance.
jazfender
7th May 2011, 09:19
237986
2 down... 1 to go...
I heard Justin Bieber died years ago but the government covered it up because he's TOO BIG TO FAIL.
onearmedbandit
7th May 2011, 09:50
The biggest reality check I had when I went to NY and CT. The people over there are not against Bin Laden etc. They almost expected it, like a tsunami or hurricane. One guy even said to me, "If you poke anyone with stick long enough, they will eventually spin around and smack you in the face".
They were pissed at the Govt for letting things get to that point though. Also many of the conspiracy theorist re:911 are from NYC.
How many people exactly did you speak to about this? Just I've seen thousands of people in NY cheering the news of Usama's demise. Although I suppose that could just be 'rent-a-crowd'. Also the American forums are full of praise for his killing, with a very vocal minority claiming it was all a scam. None blaming the govt for not doing enough however.
Paul in NZ
7th May 2011, 10:22
Peter Osbourne of the Telegraph wrote and interesting piece....
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100086646/osama-bin-laden-killing-dismissing-our-enemies-as-lunatics-will-get-us-nowhere/
An elderly man of distinguished appearance approached me soon after I arrived in Abbottabad on the day of Osama bin Laden’s death. He spoke good English and said he was a lawyer. “Bin Laden will be remembered as good,” he told me, “and his message was an inspiration.”
Many Pakistanis, as well as hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world, wholeheartedly concur. We in the West very rarely ask why this should be. We just assume that admirers of bin Laden are ignorant or demented fanatics.
I don’t believe this is always true. More than that, I am certain that portraying bin Laden as some kind of one-dimensional monster is stupid. He wasn’t a power-hungry madman, still less the cartoon monster of pure evil caricatured in the United States and most of the British media and political class.
It is time we woke up. Bin Laden was a global leader who managed to pull together miscellaneous and shambolic groups into a coherent organisation and give them an ideology. This required very considerable leadership skills, along with charisma, self-sacrifice and courage. So if we are to make sense of what happened in northern Pakistan on Monday, we need to pay the terrorist mastermind more respect.
A set of very specific circumstances made possible his career. He was born into the age of Arab dictatorships, which dates roughly from the end of the Second World War. The British empire was being wound up, and replaced by something more malign. The United States, the new imperial power in the region, chose to govern by proxy through a series of ruthless autocrats. These leaders, however unpleasant, often relied on their allies in the West for financial, military, intelligence and of course moral support.
Western politicians, diplomats and businessmen quite liked this. They mingled easily with local elites – torturers can be very good company – and chose to overlook the wretched fate of those who challenged what were all too often corrupt and sometimes evil regimes. We either didn’t know or chose not to notice: an easy position to take when you weren’t the one being imprisoned, brutalised or murdered.
The premiership of Tony Blair contains many cases of this moral complacency. He accepted the hospitality of the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, during a series of luxurious holidays in Sharm El Sheikh. Perhaps the British ambassador in Cairo at the time, John Sawers (now head of MI6), chose not to brief his prime minister about the horrors of the Mubarak regime as the Blair family headed off to their Red Sea resort. Or perhaps Blair didn’t think it mattered.
It was Ayman al-Zawahiri, bin Laden’s deputy and reportedly now his successor, who best articulated the logic of the situation. A doctor by profession, who claims to have been tortured in Egypt’s jails, al-Zawahiri grasped that it was pointless to challenge his national persecutors. The real problem, concluded Zawihiri, lay with their US sponsors.
Zawahiri’s insight was not unique. I have a friend, Mohamed Ali, who used to be an activist in Tunisia. Mr Ali’s twenties were dreadful. He was repeatedly tortured by the regime and on one occasion came close to death. Ultimately, he realised that further opposition was pointless, because his real opponent was not the loathsome Tunisian government, but its French sponsors and (through France) the European Union. So he cut his losses and fled to London, where he became a successful businessman.
Al-Zawahiri chose a darker route. He made the famous distinction between the “near enemy” (ie the local puppet regime, in his case Egypt) and the “far enemy” – the United States. He perceived that there was no real purpose in taking on Sadat or his successor Mubarak, and resolved to embark on a career of jihad against the US.
Far from being irrational or nihilistic, as everyone states, the logic of this decision is hard to challenge. Zawahiri made a terrible choice. This highly intelligent man has devoted his career to cold-blooded murder and the destruction of innocent human life. But defenders of bin Laden say this: the United States is solicitous of innocent life only when it comes to US citizens. Elsewhere, it is oblivious.
There have been too many moments during the decade-long hunt for bin Laden when there has appeared to be a horrible symmetry between al-Qaeda and the US. They have displayed an identical disregard for basic humanity: think of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay (still open despite President Obama’s pledge to close it) and the widespread slaughter of innocents (“collateral damage”) through the use of drone missiles.
Consider too the medievalism of the claim from President Obama that “justice has been done” after an unarmed man was shot dead, apparently in cold blood. Or the atavistic symbolism of the codename Geronimo, an Apache chief who fought for years to keep his tribal lands free from US control. All this from a country with such wonderful advantages: the rule of law, a tradition of liberty upheld by the sublime ideals of the Founding Fathers.
Here in Pakistan, there was a small but telling episode in January when Raymond Davis, an unregistered CIA man, shot dead two locals, reportedly in the back. The US claimed diplomatic immunity and, with the complicity of the Pakistan government, secured his acquittal and hustled him out of the country, blood money having been paid to the victims’ families.
So it is no surprise that a lawyer of distinguished appearance in Abbottabad should consider Osama bin Laden a more admirable and heroic figure than the dictators who have represented American and Western interests throughout the Muslim world. It is even less of a surprise that America is hated so venomously by many people here.
There have been thousands of homilies over the past few days about how Pakistan must change its ways, turn its face against terrorism etc etc. A much more urgent task is to reflect on what bin Laden’s career reveals about ourselves. The Arab Spring was a standing reproach to bin Laden and his friend Zawahiri. Popular movements, some inspired by fine ideals, appear to have done what al-Qaeda’s evil violence could not achieve, and swept away some of the Arab world’s dictators.
But we should be cautious. There have been Arab Springs before, and each time they have been sabotaged by the Western powers. In 1953 Britain and the US, terrified that the Iranian prime minister, Mohammed Mosaddegh, was about to nationalise his country’s oil fields, engineered the military coup that installed the Shah, an intervention that led to the revolution of 1979. In 1991, we refused to accept the result of the Algerian elections, plunging the country into a decade of civil war.
It is much too soon to be clear about the real story of the Arab revolutions. The early signs are mixed. We are helping the Libyan rebels, however clumsily. But the United States has smiled on an effective invasion of tiny Bahrain by Saudi Arabia, to suppress Shia protesters. If we make the wrong choice, by installing a fresh collection of client dictators, we do not just undermine democracy. We grant a fresh set of al-Qaeda leaders the moral legitimacy to pursue their hideous vendetta against the far enemy.
mashman
7th May 2011, 10:52
Whilst it doesn't excuse what he's done and the way he did it (and paid for). I had a feeling that was why he was doing it. I have mixed feelings about his passing... and that was a damn fine tribute
jasonu
7th May 2011, 15:53
I wil comment on that - and other things - I think Osama Bin Laden is a freedom fighter - "One man's terrosist is another man's freedom fighter".
The attack on the World Trade Centre was a political act. The refusal of the USA and others to see it as a polticial act is irrelevent. The fact that Bin Laden is a Saudi is irrelevent. "His people" are the Moselm world - the Islamic world is much more unified than the west realizes - he was fighting for what he beleives to be a just cause. Whether other people see that as a just cause is another issue.
As for John Key saying "murdered 3,000 people" ... how many innocent Iraqis and Afghanis has the US and other "murdered" or are they just "collateral damage"? It's a matter of perception and definition ... and the western world has removed violence as a poltical weapon ... I'm sorry but the rest of the world has not ... they still use violence to support regimes as well as the remove them .. violence is a much-used weapon in poltiical struggles in many many countries.
Following the first Gulf War the USA embargoed Iraq. Children were dying of common diseases easily fixed by cheap medicine, which the USA embargoed because of Saddam Hussein, his cronies and the regime. If I was an Iraqi father and my children died of common diseases because the US embargo meant they didn't get medicine I would probably be angry enough to fly a plane into the World Trade Centre ... AS a commentator said (with surprise and shock in his voice) "Why would they destroy these great symbols of Capitalism?" .. Well Hello ... there's you're answer right there ..
If I was living in Gaza and my wife and new baby about to be born (on the way to hospital because of complications) died in an ambulance at an Israeli checkpoint because the soldiers refused to let the ambulance through the checkpoint and made it wait for six hours I would be angry enough to kill Jews too ...
Ifr a foreign power did not like the Government of New Zealand and invaded to affect "regime change" I would certainly fight back ...
I reckon most of you here in those positions would also become angry and violent ... we are very lucky to live in this country and not have to face those issues.
But coming from the extreme left (unashamedly) I certainly see Bin Laden as a freedom fighter (more of an armchair reviolutionary than an actual fighter .. but the idea's the same).
So some raggheads slit a couple of ordinary airline workers throats with box cutters and then cause the deaths of several thousand ordinary commuters and workers going about their daily business by flying 2 jets into buildings and crashing one into the ground. How does that make them freedom fighters or anything else but terrorists?
It is wankers like you that have turned NZ into the 'not as nice a place to live in anymore' that it has become since MMP was voted in. Fuck the one rule for maoris and another rule for everyone else and fuck the ongoing waitangi treaty dealings (it was a long long time ago you got some stuff now get over it and move on) and fuck seperate political parties for maoris too. The country isn't big enough for that sort of crap and is being ruined by those (like you I suspect) promoting it.
trustme
8th May 2011, 17:34
The country isn't big enough for that sort of crap and is being ruined by those (like you I suspect) promoting it.
I guess thats why you are in Oregon.
We don't need the Hone's but we sure as hell don't need the KKK.
Banditbandit you class OBL as being a freedom fighter, give me a break
Hitler was a freedom fighter as well. He sought to free his country from the crippling war reparations & revenge penalties that were inflicted on him by the victors of WW1, He sought to free his country the rampant inflation that reduced his country to total poverty, an inflation that lined the pockets of the Jewish financiers & bankers at the expense of the general population. He turned the country around, his legacy even in defeat was a country that become the economic powerhouse of Europe. Now there is a freedom fighter for you.
The above paragraph is a load of absolute tripe as is any assertion that OBL was a freedom fighter. OBL's vision of freedom did not include freedom of religion, womens rights gay rights,democracy, or any other rights that conflicted with those of a narrow focused Muslim fundamentalist. He was the equivalent of Pol Pot, just check out the Talibans view & record on freedom & human rights
The world is way better off without him.
Defend him & you defend Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mugabe & any other tin pot terrorist or dictator that comes to mind
BoristheBiter
8th May 2011, 18:06
We are all entitled to our opinions. I just really REALLY don't subscribe to yours (anymore)
Just like a lot don't subscribe to yours.
mashman
8th May 2011, 18:13
Just like a lot don't subscribe to yours.
:niceone: yup.
BoristheBiter
8th May 2011, 18:15
:niceone: yup.
Doesn't stop you posting your shit though.
mashman
8th May 2011, 18:23
Doesn't stop you posting your shit though.
:rofl: or you posting your gutter press either.
jasonu
8th May 2011, 18:24
I guess thats why you are in Oregon.
We don't need the Hone's but we sure as hell don't need the KKK.
Banditbandit you class OBL as being a freedom fighter, give me a break
Hitler was a freedom fighter as well. He sought to free his country from the crippling war reparations & revenge penalties that were inflicted on him by the victors of WW1, He sought to free his country the rampant inflation that reduced his country to total poverty, an inflation that lined the pockets of the Jewish financiers & bankers at the expense of the general population. He turned the country around, his legacy even in defeat was a country that become the economic powerhouse of Europe. Now there is a freedom fighter for you.
The above paragraph is a load of absolute tripe as is any assertion that OBL was a freedom fighter. OBL's vision of freedom did not include freedom of religion, womens rights gay rights,democracy, or any other rights that conflicted with those of a narrow focused Muslim fundamentalist. He was the equivalent of Pol Pot, just check out the Talibans view & record on freedom & human rights
The world is way better off without him.
Defend him & you defend Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mugabe & any other tin pot terrorist or dictator that comes to mind
No KKK, that's stupid. Just people minding their own business, not pressing their ideas, ideals or beliefs on others and not counting on past events to line their pockets or furnish them with a living.
Buy the way, I liked the rest of your post.
BoristheBiter
8th May 2011, 18:27
:rofl: or you posting your gutter press either.
Gutter press?? whats that matter truth hurts?
mashman
8th May 2011, 18:28
Gutter press?? whats that matter truth hurts?
You seem to make enough of a song and dance about it, so I guess it must.
BoristheBiter
8th May 2011, 18:31
You seem to make enough of a song and dance about it, so I guess it must.
Oh well don't cry about it :crybaby:better people than you have been wrong also.
Good night
mashman
8th May 2011, 18:49
Oh well don't cry about it :crybaby:better people than you have been wrong also.
Good night
there's noone better than me. Have a pleasant fuckin slumber.
How many people exactly did you speak to about this? Just I've seen thousands of people in NY cheering the news of Usama's demise. Although I suppose that could just be 'rent-a-crowd'. Also the American forums are full of praise for his killing, with a very vocal minority claiming it was all a scam. None blaming the govt for not doing enough however.
Who needs rent a crowd when you have a "young nationalist" club.........well apparently that is the rumor going around lately.
However say they are genuine.......a few thousand people out of 22 Mil who were affected.......I would hardly call a census about that. Its like 50 people turning up to the Bikeoi........
onearmedbandit
9th May 2011, 09:48
How many people exactly did you speak to about this? Just I've seen thousands of people in NY cheering the news of Usama's demise. Although I suppose that could just be 'rent-a-crowd'. Also the American forums are full of praise for his killing, with a very vocal minority claiming it was all a scam. None blaming the govt for not doing enough however.
Who needs rent a crowd when you have a "young nationalist" club.........well apparently that is the rumor going around lately.
However say they are genuine.......a few thousand people out of 22 Mil who were affected.......I would hardly call a census about that. Its like 50 people turning up to the Bikeoi........
How about addressing the rest of my post rather than just picking out one bit.
How about addressing the rest of my post rather than just picking out one bit.
- The nation that invented e-marketing.
- Re-read my post, I never mentioned about govt not doing enough......rather the opposite.
I hope i covered all your questions. Let me know if I missed something.
Oppps did miss one.
I talked to probably about 50 or so people from around NJ/NY/CT area. I was there on holiday not to do a survey. It more came up with conversation on their part. Similar to how we bitch about ACC here....
oneofsix
9th May 2011, 10:56
Interesting post Paul. Even in NZ we like to blame the US for our woos so how much so for those oppressed in the middle east. Watching a few documentaries on the Taliban and Osama also adds to the image, for instance that the Taliban and most of Pakistan are of the same tribe, that Osama was given protection/hosted by the Taliban leader and had to swear allegiance to the Taliban, this all according to their tribal believes, not necessarily the western understanding.
slowpoke
9th May 2011, 11:41
Peter Osbourne of the Telegraph wrote and interesting piece....
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100086646/osama-bin-laden-killing-dismissing-our-enemies-as-lunatics-will-get-us-nowhere/
Thanks Paul, interesting read, and makes the opinion pieces we read on Herald website look like so much toilet paper (like i didn't know that already). Shame a lot of folks simply aren't interested in the motivation behind some these world changing events. I wonder what our kids are being taught in schools about this sort of thing?
Paul in NZ
9th May 2011, 12:15
I wouldnt want you to think that I dont approve of the death of Mr Bin Laden but I think that the point of wrongly ridiculing him and his followers and fanatics is a valid one. Ultimately we all are held responsible for our actions and he chose to take the war to the general populace and was certainly clever enough to know where that would head.
BUT - there is just sooo much meddling and wrong in some parts of the world that its inevitable that nature will throw up more Osama's and not understanding the whys and hows condems us into a very very long conflict. It could be said that Hitlers opportunity came from a Germany shattered from WW1 reparations and personally I think that Osama came from a similar place and within a hairs breadth of starting a similar conflict - who knows, he might have, we shall just have to wait and see. Either way, I think 'justice' as we know it has taken a pretty serious wound...
You might be interested in what Boris has to say (I really dont like him much btw)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/8501595/Lets-be-clear-Osama-bin-Laden-was-executed-and-for-good-reason.html
Well, that's handy. We have all just learnt some useful etiquette about how to greet US Navy Seals arriving unexpectedly in your house when you have just gone to bed. If you find yourself lying there with your wife, just after turning off the lights, and there is a terrific racket from downstairs, you need to follow these essential dos and don'ts.
If the ninja-clad gunmen start charging up the stairs and shooting up your relatives, you are perfectly entitled to stick your head out of your bedroom door and have a gander. You may gawp in horror as a bullet whangs into the plaster near your ear. But if you try to dodge the next bullet, I am afraid you may be deemed to have committed a "hostile act". If you are so rash as to duck back into your bedroom, you will apparently entitle the Seals to follow you into the matrimonial chamber, shoot your wife in the leg and then blow you away with a shot in the chest and the head.
Yup, it was Osama bin Laden's "hostile act" of bullet-dodging that cost him his life, says the White House. If he had only stayed out there on the landing and taken the next bullet square on the mazzard, he would have been beyond suspicion, it seems. As an explanation for killing an unarmed man, this is starting to get embarrassing. I am reminded of the old South African police force, who used to explain deaths in custody by saying that their unarmed black detainees had launched savage attacks with their left temples and the smalls of their backs on the steel toecaps of their guards.
So why don't we all just cut the cackle and admit the groaningly obvious. It is perfectly clear why the US will not release the video footage they were all watching in the White House, and that caused Hillary to press her knuckles to her mouth. There was no firefight. Osama bin Laden did not cower behind his wife, spraying the US troops from his AK-47 like some scene from Call of Duty: Black Ops. That was a lie that went round the world faster than it took the truth to get its boots on, and the truth was that bin Laden hadn't even got his dressing gown on, let alone his boots, before he was despatched into the arms of Shaitan.
This was an assassination, a liquidation, an extra-judicial killing and a termination with extreme prejudice. Whichever way you look at it, President Obama has carried out one of the most effective whack jobs ever seen, and if he doesn't get re-elected I will be amazed. Osama is a has-bin, who sleeps with the fishes of the North Arabian sea, and it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
But when the president tells us that "justice has been done", I think he needs to be a bit fuller in his definition of "justice". It was 10 years ago this December, when the net was closing in on bin Laden in Tora Bora, that I wrote a pious piece in this very space, urging that the mass murderer should be put on trial. Read him the Miranda, give him his two telephone calls, and then arraign him for multiple homicide in New York and around the world.
It may be painful and problematic, I argued, but that is the difference between them and us. It's civilisation versus barbarism, the rule of law versus the law of the jungle. It's what we're fighting for. Fiat iustitia, ruat coelum, I said; and 10 years on I have to admit I can see why the Americans have not found it easy to follow my advice. Having pinpointed his lair, they could hardly have asked the Pakistanis to put him on trial – not when the Pakistani security services seem to be some kind of affiliate of al-Qaeda. They couldn't hold the trial in the Hague, since the US does not recognise the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court.
In an ideal world, they would have put him on trial in NYC, the place of his greatest crime. And then what? A secret trial would have been deemed suspicious; so we would have endured a long, show-boating courtroom drama, with lawyers from the school of the O J Simpson defence trying to cast doubt on any connection between the accused and 9/11, and the cameras of the world would have been trained for weeks on the noble and priestly features of the accused, as he subjected America and her allies to some of his finger-wagging denunciations.
Though a New York jury would certainly have sent him down, they don't have the death penalty there – and so his place of incarceration would have become a shrine, the nearby pavements covered with the wax of cretinous candlelit vigils. Having been completely obscured by the events of the Arab spring, al-Qaeda would be back on the airwaves recruiting again – and that is perhaps where the Americans could mount a legitimate argument for what they have done. Bin Laden may represent a threat to US interests whether he is dead or alive, but the reality is that he is much less of a threat in his current subaquatic position than he would be in either a courtroom or a prison.
In so far as President Obama has a duty to protect America and Americans, he almost certainly has the necessary legal cover, provided by Congress, to remove bin Laden from the scene by any means at his disposal, and that is what he has triumphantly done. As an argument, it is not without its difficulties. If America is to go around indulging in extra-judicial liquidation of anyone who poses a threat to American interests, then we are entitled to wonder where it will end. We may be worried that the enemies of America may be spurred to symmetrical retaliation and that we will be caught up in a cycle of killing and counter-killing.
But it is at least plausible, and emotionally convincing, to say Osama bin Laden was a clear and present danger to America; he had it coming, and the president had him killed. All I ask is that we stop pussy-footing around about "hostile acts" and accept that this was an execution.
I guess thats why you are in Oregon.
...
The above paragraph is a load of absolute tripe as is any assertion that OBL was a freedom fighter. OBL's vision of freedom did not include freedom of religion, womens rights gay rights,democracy, or any other rights that conflicted with those of a narrow focused Muslim fundamentalist. He was the equivalent of Pol Pot, just check out the Talibans view & record on freedom & human rights
The world is way better off without him.
Defend him & you defend Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mugabe & any other tin pot terrorist or dictator that comes to mind
OBL never was a freedom fighter - unless you mean freedom from US interference in Arab countries and support for dictatorial regimes. He wanted the US out of Saudi Arabia - that was his stated aim and that he achieved when the US pulled their airbase out in 2003 - anything after that was a bonus, as far as OBL was concerned. OBL was NOT Pol Pot or the Taliban - you are getting confused with other movements (the Talibs have been around since the English were in Afghanistan.). He was not a nice man - but he was an effective fighter against the US, using whatever means he could to attack them - just as the US attack Islam (that is how a lot of Muslims see it - you attack one Islamic country - you attack them all).
Anyhow - by the time the Yanks got him, he was a tired git, smoking weed to control pain, under house arrest by the Pakistan ISI and an increasing problem for the Islamic world who are using other means to do the same thing - but a goldmine to Pakistan, who could milk the Yanks for billions in military aid, as long as OBL was "somewhere out there". The US have known about the "compound" since it was built - OBL was sold out by "trusted" couriers, under "interrogation".
Anyway, the Harawiras - believe in what they do, but, should really take a course in "how not to really piss most people off"!
trustme
9th May 2011, 19:50
OBL never was a freedom fighter
If you read my post carefully, that is exactly my point. The rest of your diatribe I can't be bothered responding to. It reads kind of like the paragraph of tripe you did not bother to use in your quote.
oldrider
9th May 2011, 20:35
Why look for the living among the dead? :mellow:
Banditbandit
10th May 2011, 11:22
So some raggheads slit a couple of ordinary airline workers throats with box cutters and then cause the deaths of several thousand ordinary commuters and workers going about their daily business by flying 2 jets into buildings and crashing one into the ground. How does that make them freedom fighters or anything else but terrorists?
As I said, the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is only in the perceptions and labels ...
Is Nelson Mandela a freedom fighter or a terrorist?
Banditbandit
10th May 2011, 11:24
Dude - youd proly be NZ's first casualty - your so messed up and back to front - ya understand the round exits the barrel yeah? Go test it out. Twice if needed.
No worries mate - I can hit a the bullseye at 600 yards with an old open sight Lee Enfield .303 ... and I know which way the selctor switch on a M16 goes ...
Banditbandit
10th May 2011, 11:25
The whole lot of them are racist bags of shit. Thuggery and standover tactics is all they know. The rest of the country moves on while they continue to drag their knuckles on the ground.
Are you talking about George W Bush and co?
Banditbandit
10th May 2011, 11:27
We are all entitled to our opinions. I just really REALLY don't subscribe to yours (anymore)
Just like a lot don't subscribe to yours.
Yup .. that's called Freedom ...
Delerium
10th May 2011, 11:40
Are you talking about George W Bush and co?
No I wasn't but I can see that people would agree with the sentiment there too.
jasonu
10th May 2011, 12:50
As I said, the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is only in the perceptions and labels ...
Is Nelson Mandela a freedom fighter or a terrorist?
As far as I know Nelson Mandela has never been responsible for flying planes into buildings and killing thousands in the process just to make a point.
Banditbandit
10th May 2011, 13:22
As far as I know Nelson Mandela has never been responsible for flying planes into buildings to make a point.
This is true .. However Mandela was imprisoned by the South African Apartheid regime because he was the leader of the Umkhonto We Sizwe - the armed wing of the ANC. He was charged with Sabotage and other charges and imprisoned for life. Umkhonto We Sizwe made its first Guerrilla attack in the early 1960s. The organization originally targetted sabotage .. but by the 1980s had moved to urban guerrilla warfare, bombing bars in Durban, etc etc ... a 30 year "terrorist campaign" against Apartheid. By the end of the 1980s the Apartheid regime was ready to release Mandela from jail - as long as he renounced the "armed struggle" .. Mandela never did ... but was eventually released to become the president of the new republic - a freedom fighter/terrorist if I every saw one ...
Yassar Arafat - PLO terrorist extraordinaire - renounced terrorism as the way forward .. and shook hands with one Egyptian President across the peace table ... still regarded as a "terrorist".
Mandela has become a world super figure - he never renounced violent struggle - Arafat renounced the struggle but the USA said "Never negotiate with terrorists" (OH, we are happy to sit down and eat with Mandela tho')
Eamon De Valera - leader of Sinn Fein in Ireland - was active in the Easter Rising - jailed for life by the British for life (commuted from the death sentence) - became the first president of the new Irish republic - Certainly looks like Eamon De Valera was a terrorist/freedom fighter
Menachem Begun - former Prime Minister of Israel. Former member of the Irgun - a Jewish terrorist/freedom fighter organisastion. Begun took an active role in the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946 - 91 dead and 46 injured (it housed, among other things, the British Military headquarters) .. and was the worst incident of bloodshed, killing more people than any incident in Jewish/Arab conflict - Begun got to be Prime Minister - certainly looks like a freedom fighter/terrorist to me ..
And on and on ... Terrorist or freedom fighter is largely a matter of perception and definition .. winning helps too of course ... all of the above were winners .. Bin Laden was a loser ..
avgas
10th May 2011, 13:22
As I said, the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is only in the perceptions and labels.
I thought it was the hippie style clothing?
I aint never seen a terrorist with a hawaiian shirt, rose tinted glasses and an afro.
Paul in NZ
10th May 2011, 13:30
As far as I know Nelson Mandela has never been responsible for flying planes into buildings and killing thousands in the process just to make a point.
Thats a very silly comparison - the ANC had neither the opportunity, plan nor the need as their enemy was in the same country. However, just as with the IRA (who had domestic and off shore enemy), there was a heck of a lot of innocent blood spilt.
This just reinforces the idea that 'innocent lives' only matter if they are western and does your argument little good at all....
slowpoke
10th May 2011, 13:47
It's bloody funny how many people are prepared to jump to conclusions based on nothing but gut feeling or stick to pre-prepared convictions in the face of contradictory evidence. Forget the political studies students, it's the budding psychologists who will be having a field day with recent events.
For a laugh just go and plug "Saudi", "Bush", "Bin Laden" and "CIA" into your ol' friend Mr Google and have a read through some of the frankly quite scary dealings going on between them over the years. The whole thing stinks, and the suprise isn't that Bin Laden has carried out a vendetta against the US, the suprise is that he hasn't got more support than he has.
With knowledge of all the shonky dealings going on over the decades the last thing the US wanted was to bring him to trial, there was no question he needed to be silenced.
As for Pakistan being complicit in allowing OBL refuge, I just don't see why it's so hard to believe they knew nothing: if he arrived with a small "family" group or merged with an existing family, stayed within the compound (or preferrably indoors) during daylight hours then barring a house to house search how would anyone be any the wiser? It's simple stuff, and as long as he and his crew were disciplined/smart then it would be easy to keep him hidden.
Banditbandit
10th May 2011, 14:54
I thought it was the hippie style clothing?
I aint never seen a terrorist with a hawaiian shirt, rose tinted glasses and an afro.
That's 'cause the hippies had no balls and too much grass
(To the tune of Dylan's TImes they are a'Changing ...)
Come gather round people wherever you roam
And admit that the whole revolution is blown
'cause you'd rather sit round on your arse and get stoned
And the times they are remaining ...
The Weathermen on the other hand ... (Real US homegrown terrorists ...)
BoristheBiter
10th May 2011, 15:06
This is true .. However Mandela was imprisoned by the South African Apartheid regime because he was the leader of the Umkhonto We Sizwe - the armed wing of the ANC. He was charged with Sabotage and other charges and imprisoned for life. Umkhonto We Sizwe made its first Guerrilla attack in the early 1960s. The organization originally targetted sabotage .. but by the 1980s had moved to urban guerrilla warfare, bombing bars in Durban, etc etc ... a 30 year "terrorist campaign" against Apartheid. By the end of the 1980s the Apartheid regime was ready to release Mandela from jail - as long as he renounced the "armed struggle" .. Mandela never did ... but was eventually released to become the president of the new republic - a freedom fighter/terrorist if I every saw one ...
Yassar Arafat - PLO terrorist extraordinaire - renounced terrorism as the way forward .. and shook hands with one Egyptian President across the peace table ... still regarded as a "terrorist".
Mandela has become a world super figure - he never renounced violent struggle - Arafat renounced the struggle but the USA said "Never negotiate with terrorists" (OH, we are happy to sit down and eat with Mandela tho')
Eamon De Valera - leader of Sinn Fein in Ireland - was active in the Easter Rising - jailed for life by the British for life (commuted from the death sentence) - became the first president of the new Irish republic - Certainly looks like Eamon De Valera was a terrorist/freedom fighter
Menachem Begun - former Prime Minister of Israel. Former member of the Irgun - a Jewish terrorist/freedom fighter organisastion. Begun took an active role in the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946 - 91 dead and 46 injured (it housed, among other things, the British Military headquarters) .. and was the worst incident of bloodshed, killing more people than any incident in Jewish/Arab conflict - Begun got to be Prime Minister - certainly looks like a freedom fighter/terrorist to me ..
And on and on ... Terrorist or freedom fighter is largely a matter of perception and definition .. winning helps too of course ... all of the above were winners .. Bin Laden was a loser ..
And they all fought in THEIR COUNTRY OF BIRTH.
OBL was fighting a holey war, it has nothing to do with freedom and all to do with oppression.
I guess thats why Hone has so much in common with him.
Banditbandit
10th May 2011, 15:23
And they all fought in THEIR COUNTRY OF BIRTH.
OBL was fighting a holey war, it has nothing to do with freedom and all to do with oppression.
I guess thats why Hone has so much in common with him.
:rofl: So you can read? It wasn't all Blah Blah Blah ????
Let's see de Valera was born in New York ... (so much for that one ...)
Begin was born in Brest in Russia ... (so much for that one ...)
Yassar Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt .. (well so much for that one too ...)
Only Mandela was born in the country he fought for (now you've learnt to read learn to get your story right)
But OK - I take your point .. but as I said, the Islamic world views itself in a more unified way than the west. The countries are creations of post-WW1 and 2 Europe ansd the lines on the map are pretty arbitrary ...
The holy war - yes, they frame it in that way. You have to remember that for the strong Islamic peoples the Enlightenment period of western thinking means little and they do not make a distinction between religion and politics - in fact the Koran, as it is written, lays out a whole society and social functioning. And I quite like it (Yes, I know what you are going to say but have you ever read the Koran? And not just listened to the crazies (on both sides) who use it for a justification for oppression and violence - especially of women ...
The Koranic society would be a fair and just society - I doubt there is any country in the world which actually follows all that the Koran teaches .. and the Moslem fundamentalists such as the Taliban certainly do not ..
BoristheBiter
10th May 2011, 17:28
:rofl: So you can read? It wasn't all Blah Blah Blah ????
Let's see de Valera was born in New York ... (so much for that one ...)
Begin was born in Brest in Russia ... (so much for that one ...)
Yassar Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt .. (well so much for that one too ...)
Only Mandela was born in the country he fought for (now you've learnt to read learn to get your story right)
But OK - I take your point .. but as I said, the Islamic world views itself in a more unified way than the west. The countries are creations of post-WW1 and 2 Europe ansd the lines on the map are pretty arbitrary ...
The holy war - yes, they frame it in that way. You have to remember that for the strong Islamic peoples the Enlightenment period of western thinking means little and they do not make a distinction between religion and politics - in fact the Koran, as it is written, lays out a whole society and social functioning. And I quite like it (Yes, I know what you are going to say but have you ever read the Koran? And not just listened to the crazies (on both sides) who use it for a justification for oppression and violence - especially of women ...
The Koranic society would be a fair and just society - I doubt there is any country in the world which actually follows all that the Koran teaches .. and the Moslem fundamentalists such as the Taliban certainly do not ..
is was all blah so i had a few more beers.:rofl:
So what is he then? A freedom fighter or religious nut? you can't have it both ways. Unless you just like contradicting yourself.
ellipsis
10th May 2011, 18:03
So what is he then? A freedom fighter or religious nut?
...he's really just/was a very very wealthy arab who was into the power trip, using the religious scripture of 'their', book to control a lot of mindless, poor peasants who eat sand and dates and goats and are fucked off with the 'infidel' for a thousand years worth of shit imposed on them...if he was a really, really poor peasanty type, he probably would be following some one like himself...when he wasn't down at the bazaar, fingering silly white girls and getting relaxed with one of them hookah, thingys...
slowpoke
10th May 2011, 18:32
...he's really just/was a very very wealthy arab who was into the power trip, using the religious scripture of 'their', book to control a lot of mindless, poor peasants who eat sand and dates and goats and are fucked off with the 'infidel' for a thousand years worth of shit imposed on them...if he was a really, really poor peasanty type, he probably would be following some one like himself...when he wasn't down at the bazaar, fingering silly white girls and getting relaxed with one of them hookah, thingys...
It probably helps you sleep at night but that's just bollocks.
Here's a run down of recent US/CIA/Bush fiddling that should make anyone pissed off.
http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm
Winston001
10th May 2011, 21:58
...he's really just/was a very very wealthy arab who was into the power trip, using the religious scripture of 'their', book to control a lot of mindless, poor peasants who eat sand and dates and goats
...if he was a really, really poor peasanty type, he probably would be following some one like himself...
Not really. Mullah Mohammed Omar the leader of the Taliban was a poor man who rose to be the Head of State of Afghanistan. Money doesn't make leaders, that requires intelligence passion and charisma - which Osama Bin Laden had.
Here's a run down of recent US/CIA/Bush fiddling that should make anyone pissed off.
http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm
That is an interesting article with threads of truth but viewed through a lens of conspiracy. Nobody doubts the CIA support of the Mujahideen during the Russian occupation but what tends to get overlooked is the drug trafficing of opium by the Mujahideen which provided substantial sums. They were not simply propped up by outside influences.
Again, nobody doubts that the USA and Saudi Arabia have common interests and political stability in that country is a cornerstone of Middle East politics - and economics. Unfortunately SA is a very conservative Moslem nation and does not enjoy the freedoms we and Americans take for granted. Given the current turmoil in the region that could change very quickly but the West is nervous because oil supplies will get disrupted. $4/litre anyone?
ellipsis
10th May 2011, 22:05
It probably helps you sleep at night
...no,,thats rum...
oneofsix
10th May 2011, 22:16
Not really. Mullah Mohammed Omar the leader of the Taliban was a poor man who rose to be the Head of State of Afghanistan. Money doesn't make leaders, that requires intelligence passion and charisma - which Osama Bin Laden had.
Mullah Mohammed has a bit longer story than that. He was a religious teacher (Mullah). He was a war hero against the Russians. He retired after the Russians left. During the civil war that followed local leader's group raped a couple of young woman so the people went to him, he got a group of students together and rescued the woman, punished the rapists, took over the leadership of the southern tribe, which is a tribe that also occupies much of Pakistan. The Civil war was tribal which meant he was now at war with the other tribes. With tribal assistance from across the border he took over most of the country.
Banditbandit
11th May 2011, 08:58
is was all blah so i had a few more beers.:rofl:
So what is he then? A freedom fighter or religious nut? you can't have it both ways. Unless you just like contradicting yourself.
See .. the two positions you lay out - either a freedom fighter or a religious nut are western positions - they are not mutually exclusive in other thought systems.
Bald Eagle
11th May 2011, 09:05
Here's a run down of recent US/CIA/Bush fiddling that should make anyone pissed off.
We all recognise that the good ole U.S of A is the self appointed playground monitor in the global sandpit.
Trouble is they act like a primary school bully :sick: when they don't get what they want.
terbang
11th May 2011, 09:06
One of the guys that I fly with up here is a local (Saudi boy) hes one of these guys who is a real aviation enthusiast, high on enthusiasm but a little short on ambition resulting in his career copilot status. Hes approaching 60 and has flown for just about every private family in Saudi Arabia over the years. A top bloke who I do enjoy flying with.
He once recalled a flight where he flew the Bin Laden family Learjet to Sudan with some of the Bin Laden brothers on board. This was after Osama Bin Laden had denounced Saudi Arabia, but before 911. They were travelling to Sudan to meet with him to settle some family business affairs.
The spoken in Arabic meeting was held onboard the aircraft and mainly discussed family business matters. At the conclusion and when Osama BL was just about to step off the aircraft, one of the brothers asked him to reconsider the direction he was heading and to return to Saudi and resurrect the Bin Laden good name.
Apparently Osama Bin Laden, just replied "to late, I'll see you in heaven" and walked away. The rest is history.
BoristheBiter
11th May 2011, 09:30
See .. the two positions you lay out - either a freedom fighter or a religious nut are western positions - they are not mutually exclusive in other thought systems.
??WTF??
I think i will have to read that later after a few beers as that makes no sense.
They are a western position but not mutually exclusive in other thought systems???
So you are saying he is a freedom fighter and religious nut because in his eyes he is right.
Your argument is a bit like saying the KKK are freedom fighters because in their minds they are right so we shouldn't call them complete tossers because they believe it to be true.
oldrider
11th May 2011, 09:38
??WTF??
I think i will have to read that later after a few beers as that makes no sense.
They are a western position but not mutually exclusive in other thought systems???
So you are saying he is a freedom fighter and religious nut because in his eyes he is right.
Your argument is a bit like saying the KKK are freedom fighters because in their minds they are right so we shouldn't call them complete tossers because they believe it to be true.
Interestingly enough the bi-election result that Hone is forcing will finally tell us what Maori are "really" thinking! .... :confused:
Watch that space, you may be very surprised! :shit:
BoristheBiter
11th May 2011, 09:40
Interestingly enough the bi-election result that Hone is forcing will finally tell us what Maori are "really" thinking! .... :confused:
Watch that space, you may be very surprised! :shit:
I hope i will be.
trustme
11th May 2011, 09:51
As for Pakistan being complicit in allowing OBL refuge, I just don't see why it's so hard to believe they knew nothing: if he arrived with a small "family" group or merged with an existing family, stayed within the compound (or preferrably indoors) during daylight hours then barring a house to house search how would anyone be any the wiser? It's simple stuff, and as long as he and his crew were disciplined/smart then it would be easy to keep him hidden.
I listened to an interview with retired CIA analyst who had been on OBL trail. He felt it highly likely that Pakistan knew where he was & made a couple of points
1/ To be openly complicit in nailing OBL would not play well with many Pakistanis & could be very disruptive internally
2/ Pakistan has the whip hand in their US relationship. The US needs access through Pakistan to supply their operations in Afghanistan. The Pakis do just enough to keep their nose clean with the US, but no more.
3/ To build a compound like that so close to a concentrated military presence & not be noticed was not credible
Banditbandit
11th May 2011, 11:40
??WTF??
I think i will have to read that later after a few beers as that makes no sense.
They are a western position but not mutually exclusive in other thought systems???
So you are saying he is a freedom fighter and religious nut because in his eyes he is right.
Your argument is a bit like saying the KKK are freedom fighters because in their minds they are right so we shouldn't call them complete tossers because they believe it to be true.
No, Im not arguing he is a freedom fighter and a religious nut because inhis eyes he's right ... I'm arguing that the western worldview which you so clearly subscribe to is not the worldview of the majority of the peple who live on this planet.
I'm not sure how to get this idea across to you - it's a major exercise in understanding philosophies, ontologies and worldviews (or the more accurate term weltanschuaang) - a whole pattern of thinking which is coherent within itself. The post would be massive.
The western worldview is coherent within itself (largely) - but it is not the only coherent worldview. There are other ways of seeing the world.
For instance, in the west we value freedom - freedom of religion, freedom of speach, etc etc.
But if a person holds an ontology that includes the Chritian god Yahweh how much freedom do they actually have, given the prescibed rules of the Christian Bible? An aethist such as myself may well ahve more freedom as there is no "Big Brther" looking over my shoulder ready to judge and condemn me.
If the premise that Allah exists is accepted, then the believers are obliged to live by the rules set down by that god - or face the consequences. The problem then moves to how to interpret the rules any God sets down - and no religion has ever reached a consensus on that one.
Clearly, the western sense of freedom is a post-Enlightenment period development and forms a major part of our western, largely secular, world. That is not true of the rest of the world - which holds very different weltanshuaang.
Gawd - a simple explanation and massive post already !!!!
Bugga that for a laugh ... I need some THC.
BoristheBiter
11th May 2011, 13:12
No, Im not arguing he is a freedom fighter and a religious nut because inhis eyes he's right ... I'm arguing that the western worldview which you so clearly subscribe to is not the worldview of the majority of the peple who live on this planet.
I'm not sure how to get this idea across to you - it's a major exercise in understanding philosophies, ontologies and worldviews (or the more accurate term weltanschuaang) - a whole pattern of thinking which is coherent within itself. The post would be massive.
The western worldview is coherent within itself (largely) - but it is not the only coherent worldview. There are other ways of seeing the world.
For instance, in the west we value freedom - freedom of religion, freedom of speach, etc etc.
But if a person holds an ontology that includes the Chritian god Yahweh how much freedom do they actually have, given the prescibed rules of the Christian Bible? An aethist such as myself may well ahve more freedom as there is no "Big Brther" looking over my shoulder ready to judge and condemn me.
If the premise that Allah exists is accepted, then the believers are obliged to live by the rules set down by that god - or face the consequences. The problem then moves to how to interpret the rules any God sets down - and no religion has ever reached a consensus on that one.
Clearly, the western sense of freedom is a post-Enlightenment period development and forms a major part of our western, largely secular, world. That is not true of the rest of the world - which holds very different weltanshuaang.
Gawd - a simple explanation and massive post already !!!!
Bugga that for a laugh ... I need some THC.
I had got it i was just making sure it was what you meant.
So at the end of the day he is still a terrorist, and got what was coming to him.
Most of this planet can get along with each other and not go around killing innocent people just to get their point across.
mashman
11th May 2011, 14:48
Most of this planet can get along with each other and not go around killing innocent people just to get their point across.
Shame they aren't the ones in power... but how would someone go about getting that point across, hmmmmm... oh yeah, voting :facepalm:... wonder if there are any alternatives :shifty:
Banditbandit
11th May 2011, 14:50
I had got it i was just making sure it was what you meant.
So at the end of the day he is still a terrorist, and got what was coming to him.
Most of this planet can get along with each other and not go around killing innocent people just to get their point across.
I'm with Mashman ... look at Syria ... Libya ... Myannmar ... and many other brutal regimes. They certainly kill innocent people to get their point across ..
BoristheBiter
11th May 2011, 15:02
I'm with Mashman ... look at Syria ... Libya ... Myannmar ... and many other brutal regimes. They certainly kill innocent people to get their point across ..
I would say its more of trying to stay in power more than getting their point across.
I will still stand by my comment as MOST of the world seems to be able to live together.
jaffaonajappa
11th May 2011, 17:17
No worries mate - I can hit a the bullseye at 600 yards with an old open sight Lee Enfield .303 ... and I know which way the selctor switch on a M16 goes ...
I find that kinda difficult to believe.....600 yards on an open sight LE .303? Unless you mean one shot in ten or so....
Oh wait. My bad. Just read your other posts....you moved out from under your bridge - Troll?
So killing innocent people is bad? Then the worlds most brutal and reprehensible regime must be the one that kills the most innocents, right? Now, I wonder which regime that is....
carbonhed
11th May 2011, 19:44
So killing innocent people is bad? Then the worlds most brutal and reprehensible regime must be the one that kills the most innocents, right? Now, I wonder which regime that is....
Commie, leftie, scumsucking pigs?????? Do I get a prize?
Commie, leftie, scumsucking pigs?????? Do I get a prize?
No, that's not a country.
oneofsix
11th May 2011, 20:32
So killing innocent people is bad? Then the worlds most brutal and reprehensible regime must be the one that kills the most innocents, right? Now, I wonder which regime that is....
who's definition of innocent?
Can't help thinking OBL, Taliban and others like them are where the christian world was at the time of the spanish inquisition and the dark ages, before we grew up and became the horrible western world.
Jantar
11th May 2011, 20:34
So killing innocent people is bad? Then the worlds most brutal and reprehensible regime must be the one that kills the most innocents, right? Now, I wonder which regime that is....
That depends on your definitions of regime and innocents. Is someone harbouring a terrorist an innocent? Also. if a terrorist group sets up operation in a school or a hospital who is the guilty party when someone who is not a member of the terrorist group gets hurt or killed?
Is Al Qaida a regime? Is Hazbulla a regime? Is Mugabwe heading a regime seperate from his country's regime?
So many possible definitions that change the answer to your question.
carbonhed
11th May 2011, 20:43
No, that's not a country.
But, but but... you said regime. I demand a recount.
BoristheBiter
11th May 2011, 20:47
That depends on your definitions of regime and innocents. Is someone harbouring a terrorist an innocent? Also. if a terrorist group sets up operation in a school or a hospital who is the guilty party when someone who is not a member of the terrorist group gets hurt or killed?
Is Al Qaida a regime? Is Hazbulla a regime? Is Mugabwe heading a regime seperate from his country's regime?
So many possible definitions that change the answer to your question.
I think he was meaning his head friends.
Winston001
11th May 2011, 21:40
So killing innocent people is bad? Then the worlds most brutal and reprehensible regime must be the one that kills the most innocents, right? Now, I wonder which regime that is....
China. FTW
China. FTW
Could very well be right
BoristheBiter
11th May 2011, 22:07
Could very well be right
Iran, Libya, Zimbabwe, Are those who you where meaning?
No, those are small fry. If you consider innocents to be civilians who are not directly involved in a conflict, then I suppose China has killed the most. Not far behind would be the USA, if you are looking at the period after WWII.
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa06.html
I haven't added up the numbers but it runs into the millions. As you all know, the US "does not keep a body count" so it's hard to get an exact figure.
Jantar
11th May 2011, 23:33
No, those are small fry. If you consider innocents to be civilians who are not directly involved in a conflict, then I suppose China has killed the most. Not far behind would be the USA, if you are looking at the period after WWII.
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa06.html
I haven't added up the numbers but it runs into the millions. As you all know, the US "does not keep a body count" so it's hard to get an exact figure.
That's a great site. Unfortunately they consider acts by any country or group that had even moral support by USA to be acts by USA itself. That's a fail.
There is no definiton of civilians, and in many cases the civilians are in places operated by military factions. Another fail.
Then it lists "The USA destroyer, the US Vincennes in Iranian territorial waters, shoots down an Iranian commercial flight (Iran Air 654) in Iranian airspace killing all 286 passengers." What it doesn't say is that at the time of the incident the Vincennes was involved in a firefight with 2 Iranian gunships when the airliner approached with its transponder squawking on Mode B (military channel). The airliner which was flying direct from a military airfield failed to respond to radio calls on either military or civilian channels.
Sorry, but if I was the weapons officer, already involved in a firefight, and an aircraft approaches squawking Mode B, I wouldn't wait for any radio calls, I'd shoot first and ask questions later.
It was later found that the airliners transponder was squaking Mode C (both military and civilian). In the confusion the destroyer only picked up the military channel.
I agree with what you say about that site. In any event I think we can also agree that the number of civilians killed in wars involving the USA after WWII runs into the millions and no other regime apart from China can compete. The Chinese of course killed most of theirs within their own borders, in so called "great leap forward" and the cultural revolution.
I see your point re the Vincennes but you could argue that the ship should never have been in Iranian territorial waters in the first place. A weapons officer is just a cog in the machinery and can not as such be considered responsible. You could argue that the US regime is responsible for the deaths by ordering the ship to enter Iranian territorial waters. We all know the consequences of this decision.
A strange myth one sometimes hears is that we now value human life more than we did in the past. I see no evidence to support that claim, none at all.
Jantar
12th May 2011, 00:06
...I see your point re the Vincennes but you could argue that the ship should never have been in Iranian territorial waters in the first place. A weapons officer is just a cog in the machinery and can not as such be considered responsible. You could argue that the US regime is responsible for the deaths by ordering the ship to enter Iranian territorial waters. We all know the consequences of this decision.
.....
I'm not sure that the ship was "ordered" into Iranian waters. It's my understanding that it entered Iranian terroritory in pursuit of the gunboats that had been interferring with a freighter and then fired on the Vicennes helicopter that went to assist. But it happened a long time ago and my memory is not as sharp now as it was.
Pat Condell. The voice of reason.
JzD-rnmeiH8
jaffaonajappa
12th May 2011, 00:45
Pat Condell. The voice of reason.
Pat Condell for Gov General IMHO.
And statistaclly - one in seven dwarves are dodgy little critters.
carbonhed
12th May 2011, 07:57
The Chinese of course killed most of theirs within their own borders, in so called "great leap forward" and the cultural revolution.
Tibet swept under the carpet very neatly but what are they compared to the tens of millions piled on the altar of Leftie ideology... that the US fought against and defeated.
oneofsix
12th May 2011, 08:14
Tibet swept under the carpet very neatly but what are they compared to the tens of millions piled on the altar of Leftie ideology... that the US fought against and defeated.
Tibet, within the Chinese borders by invasion, not choice. How do the millions killed by Stalin miss out on this discussion, all and the invasion of Afghanistan by the Russians. I suppose the Koran and Vietnam wars are the American's fault as well. :rockon:
Swoop
12th May 2011, 08:38
I find that kinda difficult to believe.....600 yards on an open sight LE .303? Unless you mean one shot in ten or so...
No.
An iron sighted .303 should be "useable" out to 1000yds.
The #4T rifles were scoped and were used out to 1200yds.
Swoop
12th May 2011, 08:40
11 May, 2011: The huge amount of electronic data retrieved from Osama bin Laden's Pakistan hideout has yielded many surprises. One of them, that has been leaked, was that bin Laden was more involved in the planning and direction of al Qaeda operations, and Islamic terrorism in general, than had been thought. During the last decade, it was assumed that bin Laden's second-in-command, Egyptian Ayman al Zawahri, was increasingly running things. Not so. This is not surprising. It's been discovered in the last few years that al Zawahri is rather gruff and hard to get along with. Compared to bin Laden, al Zawahri is heavy handed and not as good at playing the media. Bin Laden appeared to have a more realistic view of where al Qaeda was (in a bad place) during the last decade, and where it was headed (a worse place.) Bin Laden was apparently the one pushing for less terrorism in Iraq five years ago. The massive slaughter of Moslems (even if they were Shia) by al Qaeda in Iraq eventually turned the Islamic world against al Qaeda. Bin Laden was more aware of this than most other senior al Qaeda leaders.
Eventually, the al Qaeda boss in Iraq was removed (via an American smart bomb), and it's long been suspected that the targeting information for that hit was leaked to the Americans on bin Laden's orders. Since the defeat of al Qaeda in Iraq, there has been a shift in tactics, away from killing lots of civilians, and more towards focusing on security forces, especially non-Moslems. This has been unpopular with the al Qaeda foot soldiers, because Western troops are very hard to kill, and too easy to get killed by. Moreover, one of al Qaeda's beliefs is that any Moslem killed during a bombing, who didn't want to be, was simply an "involuntary martyr." While nice in theory, the families of these involuntary martyrs hated al Qaeda for the honor, and bin Laden picked up on this more than al Zawahri.
Bin Laden also provided a lot more encouragement for carrying out terror attacks in the West. That has been difficult because of the massive counter-terror efforts in the West, and the growing unpopularity of Islamic terrorism among Moslems in the West. Bin Laden's documents are probably yielding indications of where al Qaeda was headed, at least according to the founder. Actually, the data analysis tools available to Western intel agencies are capable of detecting patterns of thought and intent in those documents that bin Laden was probably not consciously aware of. Eventually, there will be some interesting books coming out of all that.
jonbuoy
12th May 2011, 08:42
Tibet, within the Chinese borders by invasion, not choice. How do the millions killed by Stalin miss out on this discussion, all and the invasion of Afghanistan by the Russians. I suppose the Koran and Vietnam wars are the American's fault as well. :rockon:
There was a scuffle in the forties as well - some guy Hitler I think his name was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_ toll
Wiki quote
It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%.[30]
Banditbandit
12th May 2011, 09:02
I find that kinda difficult to believe.....600 yards on an open sight LE .303? Unless you mean one shot in ten or so....
Oh wait. My bad. Just read your other posts....you moved out from under your bridge - Troll?
:rofl: No worries mate .. when our revolution comes I don't mind if you think I can't shoot that well ... it will let you take a few more risks ...
Banditbandit
12th May 2011, 09:08
Tibet swept under the carpet very neatly but what are they compared to the tens of millions piled on the altar of Leftie ideology... that the US fought against and defeated.
I agree that there have been millions of people "piled on the altar of left-wing ideology" as you put it - equally, there have been millions of people "piled on the altar of right-wing ideology" ..
No ideology has the moral high ground - brutal, oppressive regimes are brutal and oppresive regimes, whatever their ideology.
Banditbandit
12th May 2011, 09:14
That depends on your definitions of regime and innocents. Is someone harbouring a terrorist an innocent? Also. if a terrorist group sets up operation in a school or a hospital who is the guilty party when someone who is not a member of the terrorist group gets hurt or killed?
Is Al Qaida a regime? Is Hazbulla a regime? Is Mugabwe heading a regime seperate from his country's regime?
So many possible definitions that change the answer to your question.
It also depends on the perspective of the person involved ... If people actively support a brutal and violent government how "innocent" are they really?
If hundeds of thousands of US citizens danced and sang in the streets at the news of Bin Laden's death how "innocent" do you think the terrorists believe those citizens to be?
(And before you all jump down my throat - I'm NOT arguing that they are not innocent (tho' in some sense I think they are involved - The US is a democracy "By the People, Of the People, For the People" - but I'm suggesting that the concept of "inocence" is even messier than you think).
Tibet swept under the carpet very neatly but what are they compared to the tens of millions piled on the altar of Leftie ideology... that the US fought against and defeated.
Thanks, good reminder about Tibet. With respect to the Leftie ideology, it defeated itself.
oldrider
12th May 2011, 09:34
Thanks, good reminder about Tibet. With respect to the Leftie ideology, it defeated itself.
True! But mopping up the slow learners is the hard part .... may never get through to some! :facepalm:
Banditbandit
12th May 2011, 09:34
Thanks, good reminder about Tibet. With respect to the Leftie ideology, it defeated itself.
Do you people have any idea just how leftwing a country we live in compared to the world stage????
Look at the US and the recent row over general health care ..
Our basically very cheap (used to be free) education system ...
Our social welfare system .. not just unemplyment benefits or solo mother benfits(regarded as a communist idea in the US) .. but old age pensions (in what ever form and name it currently has ... and which I bet you all expect to recieve
The left-wing is alive and well and surviving in Godzone ... and it probably scares the shit out of some of you 0- the tought that you might actually be leftwing, when your whole belief is that you are rightwing.
carbonhed
12th May 2011, 10:02
Do you people have any idea just how leftwing a country we live in compared to the world stage????
Look at the US and the recent row over general health care ..
Our basically very cheap (used to be free) education system ...
Our social welfare system .. not just unemplyment benefits or solo mother benfits(regarded as a communist idea in the US) .. but old age pensions (in what ever form and name it currently has ... and which I bet you all expect to recieve
The left-wing is alive and well and surviving in Godzone ... and it probably scares the shit out of some of you 0- the tought that you might actually be leftwing, when your whole belief is that you are rightwing.
Maybe we just need some Bandit riding fuckwit who struggles with Comparative Religions 101 to point out "Whoa maaan... it's like all shades of grey maaan... and wow... who's really to decide"?!????!
Just pick a fucking side... preferably not the side that puts women into bin liners in the name of religion.
oldrider
12th May 2011, 10:05
Do you people have any idea just how leftwing a country we live in compared to the world stage????
Look at the US and the recent row over general health care ..
Our basically very cheap (used to be free) education system ...
Our social welfare system .. not just unemplyment benefits or solo mother benfits(regarded as a communist idea in the US) .. but old age pensions (in what ever form and name it currently has ... and which I bet you all expect to recieve
The left-wing is alive and well and surviving in Godzone ... and it probably scares the shit out of some of you 0- the tought that you might actually be leftwing, when your whole belief is that you are rightwing.
True! New Zealand is as left wing as it gets, there is no right wing offering here except for the never to get of the ground fledgling Libertarianz party!
Left wing politics is nurtured through our State school systems from the cradle to the grave and as a result our politicians are the same!
We get the governments we demand and deserve! :yes: (IMHO)
NighthawkNZ
12th May 2011, 10:15
Left wing.... right wing... blah don't I need both wings to fly?
Smifffy
12th May 2011, 10:19
True! New Zealand is as left wing as it gets, there is no right wing offering here except for the never to get of the ground fledgling Libertarianz party!
Left wing politics is nurtured through our State school systems from the cradle to the grave and as a result our politicians are the same!
We get the governments we demand and deserve! :yes: (IMHO)
Governments don't run this country. Haven't for a long time (several administrations). It is run by the multi-national corporations that sponsor the political parties, and direct consumer behaviour through pricing and advertising.
Just ask Warner Bros. Look at the public and personal wealth that was gained in these years following the Americas cup. No doubt we will see a similar return on our collective investment in the RWC, that most have been priced out of attending.
The ones really calling the shots couldn't give a rat's pajamas if the country considers itself right-wing, left-wing, progressive or conservative. They don't care if their consumers pay with wages/salary a benefit or international aid money, as long as they can report a profit to head office and receive a salary/bonus that keeps them well ahead of the rest of the population.
trustme
12th May 2011, 10:19
Do you people have any idea just how leftwing a country we live in compared to the world stage????
Look at the US and the recent row over general health care ..
Our basically very cheap (used to be free) education system ...
Our social welfare system .. not just unemplyment benefits or solo mother benfits(regarded as a communist idea in the US) .. but old age pensions (in what ever form and name it currently has ... and which I bet you all expect to recieve
The left-wing is alive and well and surviving in Godzone ... and it probably scares the shit out of some of you 0- the tought that you might actually be leftwing, when your whole belief is that you are rightwing.
Name the most socialist prime minister we have ever had .
Rob Muldoon National
For once I might actually agree with you Bandit, we really only debate degrees of leftyness
oneofsix
12th May 2011, 10:34
Name the most socialist prime minister we have ever had .
Rob Muldoon National
For once I might actually agree with you Bandit, we really only debate degrees of leftyness
Left or right in NZ is the direction the party is trying to take the country in not how the present state compares with other countries. For instance National are chipping away at the National Super by increasing the age of entitlement. Make it high enough and all the workers in physical or lower paid jobs wont live long enough to receive it, thereby removing it as an option for them by stealth.
Banditbandit
12th May 2011, 10:54
Maybe we just need some Bandit riding fuckwit who struggles with Comparative Religions 101 to point out "Whoa maaan... it's like all shades of grey maaan... and wow... who's really to decide"?!????!
Just pick a fucking side... preferably not the side that puts women into bin liners in the name of religion.
Mate - I picked a side a long time ago ... I'm just having fun prodding ignorant dickheads on this site ...
If you think this is a serious discussion then you're sadly deluded ... some of us are serious and some of us are trolls. I have no idea who is what and neither do you ... I can claim to be serious - but I'll bet there are people here who just troll .. I can't decide who is serious and who is not and neither can you ...
(PS - I'm not into Comparative Religions - I'm more into phenomenology - and I got way way passed 101.)
Banditbandit
12th May 2011, 11:01
This is getting way too serious .. just got this in .. the latest pictures of Osama Bin Laden's headstone
http://ianstuart.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/7/4807875/2002899.jpg
oneofsix
12th May 2011, 11:10
This is getting way too serious .. just got this in .. the latest pictures of Osama Bin Laden's headstone
http://ianstuart.weebly.com/uploads/4/8/0/7/4807875/2002899.jpg
What no flowers :shutup:
trustme
12th May 2011, 11:18
Left or right in NZ is the direction the party is trying to take the country in not how the present state compares with other countries. For instance National are chipping away at the National Super by increasing the age of entitlement. Make it high enough and all the workers in physical or lower paid jobs wont live long enough to receive it, thereby removing it as an option for them by stealth.
If we leave things as they are this country will soon be broke. We will no longer be able to make choices, hard decisions will be made on govt spending of all types & they will be made by the foreign banks to which we are indebted. They won't chip at Nat Super, they will massacre it & a great many of the other social benefits we receive from what ever govt happens to be in power when the boom comes down.
It will be a tougher smack in the ear than Rogernomics because there are few state owned assets left to sell.
Some people seemed to have learnt nothing from Rogernomics ,they seem hell bent on charging this country back into insolvency just so their little patch is protected.
Bluntly , if we go broke there will be no money for super so unless you save you will not be retiring. I don't relish that thought.
Rant over , back to OBL
oneofsix
12th May 2011, 11:22
If we leave things as they are this country will soon be broke. We will no longer be able to make choices, hard decisions will be made on govt spending of all types & they will be made by the foreign banks to which we are indebted. They won't chip at Nat Super, they will massacre it & a great many of the other social benefits we receive from what ever govt happens to be in power when the boom comes down.
It will be a tougher smack in the ear than Rogernomics because there are few state owned assets left to sell.
Some people seemed to have learnt nothing from Rogernomics ,they seem hell bent on charging this country back into insolvency just so their little patch is protected.
Bluntly , if we go broke there will be no money for super so unless you save you will not be retiring. I don't relish that thought.
Rant over , back to OBL
do you really believe that spin? How about retiring some of the older people and opening up for the next generation? Move from unemployment and crime into employment.
trustme
12th May 2011, 11:35
do you really believe that spin? How about retiring some of the older people and opening up for the next generation? Move from unemployment and crime into employment.
That's shuffling deck chairs, still spending ,still going broke.
I really want some govt to come up with a coherent growth policy, then there will be more jobs to go around. There is no easy fix to growth. National has done 5/8's of FA to address the problem. Labour in 9 years did absolutely nothing to grow the business of NZ inc, we went backwards in terms of OECD countries
This rant is really really over
oneofsix
12th May 2011, 11:39
That's shuffling deck chairs, still spending ,still going broke.
I really want some govt to come up with a coherent growth policy, then there will be more jobs to go around. There is no easy fix to growth. National has done 5/8's of FA to address the problem. Labour in 9 years did absolutely nothing to grow the business of NZ inc, we went backwards in terms of OECD countries
This rant is really really over
yeah good luck with that. The World Bank don't want NZ to go ahead and the Govt listen to the World Bank. Hence retirement age will go up, unemployment will go up, upskilled work force will increase and growth will be further away than ever. To make the economy grow the Govt has to spend but spend right. Norway, Scotland make money from their oil, where's ours?
And how does Osama being dead help?
trustme
12th May 2011, 12:03
Norway, Scotland make money from their oil, where's ours?
And how does Osama being dead help?
Maybe we sold it cos we were broke & needed the money.
Do you think Osama ever read about Mr Micawber in David Copperfield.???
Banditbandit
12th May 2011, 12:28
Maybe we sold it cos we were broke & needed the money.
I agree. Now that we have sold the asests we had which could have been used to either save money or make money what the hell do we do?
Do you really think that if we find oil of the East Coast that the Government will keep it for us? Hell no - they'll sell it oerseas as quickly as they can in an effort to get money - a very short-sighted pathway.
Banditbandit
12th May 2011, 12:29
What no flowers :shutup:
Shit .. there's no pleasing some people ... a laugh was all that was needed.
Smifffy
12th May 2011, 12:45
I agree. Now that we have sold the asests we had which could have been used to either save money or make money what the hell do we do?
Do you really think that if we find oil of the East Coast that the Government will keep it for us? Hell no - they'll sell it oerseas as quickly as they can in an effort to get money - a very short-sighted pathway.
Isn't is strange how the govt is now falling for the same tactics that they used with great success against the Tangata Whenua a couple of hundred years ago?
What are the chances of getting the Crafar farms, or the converted forestry farms back off the chinese in a treaty settlement in the distant future?
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