Fuel taxes!

[Edbear]

This is the gist of an email I've sent to the Ministry of Transport, I wonder what response I'll get.

It's a hot topic right now, Autocar is getting on the Bandwagon about it among others. Any thoughts?

"I am looking at buying a new car and as our current car was purchased new in 1999 and has now done nearly 200,000km it is nearing the end of its economic life. The new car needs to offer about ten years service and I'm looking at getting the latest technology, versatility and economy in both fuel use and servicing.

It is apparent that diesel vehicles have come ahead in leaps and bounds over the last few years with all three performance criteria, - power, emissions and economy along with servicing costs now matching and even exceeding that of petrol vehicles. The price premium is now less of a feature in making a choice than it used to be with some good deals around.

My consternation is at the amount of road tax charged at $44.31 up to 2 tonnes which when factored into the running cost makes a diesel the same cost to run as a petrol equivalent. Taking the Ford Mondeo Turbo-diesel as an example, the road tax almost exactly negates the fuel economy advantage to the point where it costs the same per kilometer as an equivalent like the Hyundai i45 or Suzuki Kisashi.

Where is the incentive to buy more economical, lower polluting, more efficient cars? In the Mondeo, we have a 2lt car making 320NM of torque that gets 50mpg, (5.6l/100km), yet is handicapped by fuel tax to the equivalent of 37mpg, (8l/100km). I was putting the Mondeo at the top of my list despite the price premium, but now the Hyundai or Suzuki are the better value cars.

Why is this anomaly here and what if anything is the Government likely to do about it?"

[AllanB]

My Tickford XR6 likes fuel.

Actually on the open road it is pretty good for a big engine. Bit sucky around town though.

I think you have stumbled on their plan - there is no real advantage anymore as the fuel companies like to inflate the diesel price.

And there is an will not be any government incentive - unless the greens get some power (then we are stuffed).

If there was a economy incentive then surely it would apply to motorcycles.

[Scuba_Steve]

Mini's already pointed this out didn't they? Thought they were hitting them up because 2 mini's exactly the same model except 1 was petrol & 1 was more economical & diesel. They're complaint was their more economical diesel cost more to run in NZ then the less economical petrol model despite using less fuel & being (arguably) better for the environment

I might have got it wrong but I'm pretty sure that was the deal?

[bogan]

Just to clarify, isn't the fuel tax you talk of for diesel, already put on petrol at the pump, surely any comparison they should both have it, or neither?

[george formby]

Mini's already pointed this out didn't they? Thought they were hitting them up because 2 mini's exactly the same model except 1 was petrol & 1 was more economical & diesel. They're complaint was their more economical diesel cost more to run in NZ then the less economical petrol model despite using less fuel & being (arguably) better for the environment

I might have got it wrong but I'm pretty sure that was the deal?

Yup, diesels clean up at the annual Aucks to Welly economy rally before RUC is factored in. Then a petrol wins, go figure.

Something mentioned a couple of years ago on this subject was the risk of NZ becoming a dumping ground for oil burner imports, nullifying the economic & environmental benefits.
No doubt a cop out, they just need to incorporate basic efficiency standards to make it work.

Good on ya for using your keyboard for something constructive Edbear.

[avgas]

Just to clarify, isn't the fuel tax you talk of for diesel, already put on petrol at the pump, surely any comparison they should both have it, or neither?
Nope - Diesels pay about 150% of the tax of petrols (I have owned both).
The original reasoning was that trucks were ripping up the roads so it cost more to have trucks on the road. But now since the engine is in cars there is not much point of having such a high tax rate in RUC for passenger vehicles.

[Edbear]

Mini's already pointed this out didn't they? Thought they were hitting them up because 2 mini's exactly the same model except 1 was petrol & 1 was more economical & diesel. They're complaint was their more economical diesel cost more to run in NZ then the less economical petrol model despite using less fuel & being (arguably) better for the environment

I might have got it wrong but I'm pretty sure that was the deal?

I compared two Hyundai ix35's the diesel and the 2.4lt petrol. The diesel has more power and torque and better economy, - 130kw petrol, 136kw diesel, 226NM petrol, 390NM!!! diesel, but add the road tax and the running cost is greater by 1lt/100km equivalent. The Ford Mondeo, comparing the diesel with the 2.4lt petrol, still sees the diesel slightly ahead including road tax simply because the petrol isn't as economical as the Hyundai i45 or Suzuki Kizashi, both 2.4lt petrols.

So to choose, the Kizashi and i45 cost the same to run as the turbo-diesel Mondeo with about a $5k price advantage against the top line Mondeo Titanium which has the same features. The Suzuki I'm comparing is the Sport which adds AWD and 3-way driver's seat memory to the mix over the other two. All three have heated leather seats, dual-zone climate air, etc. All three outdo the Subaru legacy in features/value for money.

In the smaller cars, only the Honda City measures up to what I want. A brillant wee car! It is dearer than the others but despite that I think the difference is worth it.

[avgas]

Something mentioned a couple of years ago on this subject was the risk of NZ becoming a dumping ground for oil burner imports, nullifying the economic & environmental benefits.
No doubt a cop out, they just need to incorporate basic efficiency standards to make it work.
Yep, RUC won't fix anything. You can buy it online.
Scrap half the RUC and put one simple test in a WOF sheet.

[p.dath]

How much petrol and diesel does a litre of crude oil make?

It may be possible that while you use less litres of diesel to travel a certain number of km's, that perhaps the resources needed to make that litre of diesel aren't any cheaper.

I have no idea. Just saying their might be complicating factors that aren't obviously apparent.

[avgas]

Ed, if you get a ford TDCi - get an auto.
My manual is a horrible POS. The computer is just horrible and designed for auto's.

[avgas]

How much petrol and diesel does a litre of crude oil make?
When they separate crude at a refinery. From recall they get 10% pure shit.... 40% petrol, 35% diesel and they recycle the rest.
So you will always have both, or really expensive petrol (as you would have to keep re-refining it).

[Scuba_Steve]

When they separate crude at a refinery. From recall they get 10% pure shit.... 40% petrol, 35% diesel and they recycle the rest.
So you will always have both, or really expensive petrol (as you would have to keep re-refining it).

My understanding also is diesel requires less refining & thus cheaper to produce too

It just comes down to our Govt just sees vehicles that are cheaper to run or more economical like bikes & diesels as vehicles to be heavily taxed so they can make more money for themselves

[Edbear]

Ed, if you get a ford TDCi - get an auto.
My manual is a horrible POS. The computer is just horrible and designed for auto's.

Yup, it was always going to be an auto for practical reasons anyway. That ruled out the Focus and Fiesta diesels as they only come in manual. The diesel Rav4 also only comes in manual as does the Subaru Forrester.

Reports reckon one of the best things about the Mondeo is the auto, a 6 speed twin clutch tranny. Did you know the TDCi motor and trans are Peugeot?

[aprilia_RS250]

Hey you got it easy! I ride a 250cc 2 stroke and I'm happy if I average 8l/100km...

[Edbear]

Hey you got it easy! I ride a 250cc 2 stroke and I'm happy if I average 8l/100km...

Anyone with an Aprilia RS250 is gonna be happy regardless and fuel isn't even going to figure in ownership! :yes:

[SMOKEU]

If you're going to buy a diesel vehicle you might as well either wind back the odometer or disconnect the speedo cable for most of the time to avoid paying all the RUCs.

What makes it worse is the fact that the government is charging higher ACC levys on the licensing of diesel vehicles over petrol vehicles, yet after paying RUCs the cost of diesel vs petrol is about the same per litre if you think about it that way. The muppets in the government clearly haven't put much thought into this if they think that diesels are more dangerous than petrols.

In saying that, I still prefer to drive diesels over petrols most of the time and I can't see myself going back to a petrol car any time soon. If you own a diesel - then do what you can to beat the government at their own game. They rip you off = you rip them off. Fair enough? Give me a reason why it isn't.

[Edbear]

If you're going to buy a diesel vehicle you might as well either wind back the odometer or disconnect the speedo cable for most of the time to avoid paying all the RUCs.

What makes it worse is the fact that the government is charging higher ACC levys on the licensing of diesel vehicles over petrol vehicles, yet after paying RUCs the cost of diesel vs petrol is about the same per litre if you think about it that way. The muppets in the government clearly haven't put much thought into this if they think that diesels are more dangerous than petrols.

In saying that, I still prefer to drive diesels over petrols most of the time and I can't see myself going back to a petrol car any time soon. If you own a diesel - then do what you can to beat the government at their own game. They rip you off = you rip them off. Fair enough? Give me a reason why it isn't.


My favourite engine, outside motorcycles of course, is the turbo-diesel. Technology now has them not just more economical but more powerful and torquey with emissions as low or lower than petrol engines! I just can't get the two figures of the Mondeo 2lt diesel out of my mind. 320NM of torque as against my old Honda Legend's 3.5lt V6 with 311NM! And 50mpg, (5.6lt/100km)! Even with Road tax it just beats the 2.4lt petrol Mondeo in running costs, and matches the Hyundai/Suzuki petrol equivalents. The Mondeo is heavier with substantial safety features which do hurt the fuel economy a bit.

I can't avoid the tax charges however justified you feel it is to do so, my conscience won't allow it. It may seem old fashioned but I'm generally a law-abiding citizen and prefer to lobby for change rather than break the law. Just me...

[NinjaNanna]

Explain to me why the diesel version of a vehicle SHOULD be cheaper to run on NZ roads than the petrol version.

The way I see it, the government has got the costing model just right if the tax take per km is the same for both vehicles.

[Scuba_Steve]

Explain to me why the diesel version of a vehicle SHOULD be cheaper to run on NZ roads than the petrol version.

The way I see it, the government has got the costing model just right if the tax take per km is the same for both vehicles.

it should be cheaper because it is a more economical vehicle using less fuel but because of the extra tax charges to it the cost per k & overall running costs/yr is higher than the same in petrol format & that was before the latest ACC hike on rego & increase in RUC's so I can only assume its much worse now. Also diesel is a cheaper fuel to produce & thus cheaper at pump too so this also should add to less cost in running if we had a fair system :yes:

[Woodman]

Edbear have you looked at a Holden Epica diesel? or maybe you need a wagon?
I got a 2010 and am really impressed with it. Just wafts along at naff all revs. 6 speed and all the nanny state safety shit you will ever need. Also more economical than my old focuses at the pump. Bit of an old mans car, but that suits me these days.

I'm a diesel car convert now, but I was talking to a guy the other day who was selling his fleet of diesel vans and utes and replacing with petrols cos he reckons with ruc's and rego etc the petrols will save him a lot of money.

[Scuba_Steve]

I'm a diesel car convert now, but I was talking to a guy the other day who was selling his fleet of diesel vans

any cheap Nissans???

[Woodman]

any cheap Nissans???

Had a couple of late model nissan vans from memory. May have sold them though

[Edbear]

Explain to me why the diesel version of a vehicle SHOULD be cheaper to run on NZ roads than the petrol version.

The way I see it, the government has got the costing model just right if the tax take per km is the same for both vehicles.


it should be cheaper because it is a more economical vehicle using less fuel but because of the extra tax charges to it the cost per k & overall running costs/yr is higher than the same in petrol format & that was before the latest ACC hike on rego & increase in RUC's so I can only assume its much worse now. Also diesel is a cheaper fuel to produce & thus cheaper at pump too so this also should add to less cost in running if we had a fair system :yes:

The government should be encouraging us to buy vehicles that are better for the economy and environment, not artificially taxing them to make them uneconomic to run. While I agree with a separate road tax as it means the diesel vehicles not using the roads don't pay it, eg: tractors, farm machinery, boats; it should reflect the true costs per vehicle size and type, which it obviously doesn't as regards smaller cars.


Edbear have you looked at a Holden Epica diesel? or maybe you need a wagon?
I got a 2010 and am really impressed with it. Just wafts along at naff all revs. 6 speed and all the nanny state safety shit you will ever need. Also more economical than my old focuses at the pump. Bit of an old mans car, but that suits me these days.

I'm a diesel car convert now, but I was talking to a guy the other day who was selling his fleet of diesel vans and utes and replacing with petrols cos he reckons with ruc's and rego etc the petrols will save him a lot of money.

I did look at the Holden range, but they fall down on refinement and noise and dynamics by comparison. I really wanted to like the Epica and Captiva, but they just don't quite match up to the Suzuki and Hyundai, incl the ix35, and are well behind the Mondeo. They are made by Daewoo in Korea and while improving and a lot better than Daewoo have done in the past, they are still using older tech for some of the design.

The business owner is probably correct as his accountant will have done the analysis. My son-in-law still runs diesel vans and loves the VW's. Great vans, too!

[avgas]

I did look at the Holden range, but they fall down on refinement and noise and dynamics by comparison. I really wanted to like the Epica and Captiva, but they just don't quite match up to the Suzuki and Hyundai, incl the ix35, and are well behind the Mondeo.
Not too sure about the Mondeo - but my Focus is made in Spain and build quality is rubbish in comparison to the koreans.
Even the GM Korean stuff is quite nice as Holden seem to add their own little touches for Aus/NZ market.
I was fortunate enough to drive my old Holden Viva equivalent in China. Chevy something? The NZ version had stiffer suspension, better stereo, better dash.....it was a completely different car from the one in China. So while the shell comes from Korea, Holden do a crap load of work on it when it his Aus shores.
Likewise new captiva is leagues ahead of the horrible old one.

What didn't you like about the Suzuki? I was impressed with their Swift sport, it was faster than my Focus was. Oh yeah on that note don't buy into the hype about the TDCi being better than the petrol, they aren't......the claimed figures are what it can do - but because they put and "economy" program in the Diesels. The TDCi only produces about 2/3rds of its claimed power/torque in comparison to the petrol that produces the whole wack.
Every now and then you can confuse the computer - but not if you have less than half a tank, and not if you have driven calmly for the last 5 minutes......

Didn't know about the pug engine thing. I have always assumed it was a Volvo engine......

[Edbear]

Not too sure about the Mondeo - but my Focus is made in Spain and build quality is rubbish in comparison to the koreans.
Even the GM Korean stuff is quite nice as Holden seem to add their own little touches for Aus/NZ market.
I was fortunate enough to drive my old Holden Viva equivalent in China. Chevy something? The NZ version had stiffer suspension, better stereo, better dash.....it was a completely different car from the one in China. So while the shell comes from Korea, Holden do a crap load of work on it when it his Aus shores.
Likewise new captiva is leagues ahead of the horrible old one.

What didn't you like about the Suzuki? I was impressed with their Swift sport, it was faster than my Focus was. Oh yeah on that note don't buy into the hype about the TDCi being better than the petrol, they aren't......the claimed figures are what it can do - but because they put and "economy" program in the Diesels. The TDCi only produces about 2/3rds of its claimed power/torque in comparison to the petrol that produces the whole wack.
Every now and then you can confuse the computer - but not if you have less than half a tank, and not if you have driven calmly for the last 5 minutes......

Didn't know about the pug engine thing. I have always assumed it was a Volvo engine......

I do like the Suzuki it's top equal on the list with the Hyundai i45 for petrol. I'll have a look at the Epica, as I do like the size, I was going by road reports I've been looking up on all the vehicles, trying to get some idea of differences to look for between them when we start driving them. I think the ix35 Hyundai has it over the Captiva but again, I can check that for myself. I'm now in a bit of confusion over the petrol v. diesel question and will have to drive the Mondeo to see whether it is any better overall than the petrol's.

Son-in-law has a Focus diesel for his work car and likes the power and economy, but says it's got too much turbo lag. Ultimate economy is the Fiesta turbo diesel, only available in manual, but it does get near 80mpg or 3.6l/100km! Have a lot to go over and will also be taking into account what Mrs. Bear likes as she deserves a car she wants as well.

The diesel's in the Fords are the PRV cooperative, Peugeot, Renault, Volvo and seem to have a good rep.

[SMOKEU]

My favourite engine, outside motorcycles of course, is the turbo-diesel. Technology now has them not just more economical but more powerful and torquey with emissions as low or lower than petrol engines! I just can't get the two figures of the Mondeo 2lt diesel out of my mind. 320NM of torque as against my old Honda Legend's 3.5lt V6 with 311NM! And 50mpg, (5.6lt/100km)! Even with Road tax it just beats the 2.4lt petrol Mondeo in running costs, and matches the Hyundai/Suzuki petrol equivalents. The Mondeo is heavier with substantial safety features which do hurt the fuel economy a bit.



Have a look at this 2.2L diesel Hyundai http://www.hyundai.co.nz/new-cars/santa-fe/

145kW and 436Nm of torque from 1800RPM! All from a 2.2L engine!

That has more torque than the current model 3.6L Commodore.

What I would really like a V10 diesel Touareg.

[Edbear]

Have a look at this 2.2L diesel Hyundai http://www.hyundai.co.nz/new-cars/santa-fe/

145kW and 436Nm of torque from 1800RPM! All from a 2.2L engine!

That has more torque than the current model 3.6L Commodore.

What I would really like a V10 diesel Touareg.

Now you're talking! The Santa Fe is out of our price bracket unfotrunately but the ix35 is within it. Even that puts out an incredible 390NM from its 2lt!

As for the V10, I've wanted one since the Phaeton came out with it!

[SMOKEU]

Now you're talking! The Santa Fe is out of our price bracket unfotrunately but the ix35 is within it. Even that puts out an incredible 390NM from its 2lt!

As for the V10, I've wanted one since the Phaeton came out with it!

As good as the new diesels are, they are being pushed harder and harder to develop more torque and power than ever before. I wonder what todays crop of diesels will be like in 20 years from now. I doubt they would age as well as the naturally aspirated diesels of yesteryear.

Still, I wouldn't say no to one of them new diesels.

[Edbear]

As good as the new diesels are, they are being pushed harder and harder to develop more torque and power than ever before. I wonder what todays crop of diesels will be like in 20 years from now. I doubt they would age as well as the naturally aspirated diesels of yesteryear.

Still, I wouldn't say no to one of them new diesels.

You've got a point, though. Just look at the four-stroke MX/Motard bikes, esp. such like the Aprillia V-twins. Fantastic performance but hardly a '75 XR250 for long life are they? Still, properly serviced from new, they should be good for a while. Our '99 Nissan Pulsar petrol auto has now done 191,000km and the motor and trans are still as good as new. Still got the original exhaust even. It's in much better condition than most of the Jap imports with much lower k's.

[avgas]

Son-in-law has a Focus diesel for his work car and likes the power and economy, but says it's got too much turbo lag.
Tell him to take it into a ford dealer for a "service".
I just did my 60k service, and my car came back to me with mysterious new little wastegate/blowoff valve thing. Under load, the dropping load makes a little noise like all the boy racer cars.
Not quite a pphhhhhish! but you can hear it.......

Magically most of my lag problems have gone. However that damn computer is going to be the bane of my life.......
But yeah what the hell is the deal with the Focus. For $35K I would expect full electric windows, not just the front seats?????

[avgas]

As good as the new diesels are, they are being pushed harder and harder to develop more torque and power than ever before. I wonder what todays crop of diesels will be like in 20 years from now. I doubt they would age as well as the naturally aspirated diesels of yesteryear.
Still, I wouldn't say no to one of them new diesels.
Would you own a 1980's Toyota Surf/Prado Diesel?
If so then the new ones will be fine in 20 years. That was a "high power" turbo version.......most are still on the road now.

Problems with Diesels are usually attributed to poor servicing. Not many people realize they NEED servicing more often then petrols. A petrol will do 50-100K with no service. A diesel will start getting dodgey after 30K.

[Edbear]

Tell him to take it into a ford dealer for a "service".
I just did my 60k service, and my car came back to me with mysterious new little wastegate/blowoff valve thing. Under load, the dropping load makes a little noise like all the boy racer cars.
Not quite a pphhhhhish! but you can hear it.......

Magically most of my lag problems have gone. However that damn computer is going to be the bane of my life.......
But yeah what the hell is the deal with the Focus. For $35K I would expect full electric windows, not just the front seats?????

I'll let him know! Thanks for the tip! I do agree some features are questionable and agree manual rear windows are passe these days!


Would you own a 1980's Toyota Surf/Prado Diesel?
If so then the new ones will be fine in 20 years. That was a "high power" turbo version.......most are still on the road now.

Problems with Diesels are usually attributed to poor servicing. Not many people realize they NEED servicing more often then petrols. A petrol will do 50-100K with no service. A diesel will start getting dodgey after 30K.

Yup! Servicing is critical to diesels! Do it right and don't skimp on having the best oil. Also, try to ascertain if the vehicle has ben overheated at any point, that almost invariably leads to cracked heads down the track if not immediately. Just waht happened to my Estima, costing me $2500.00! After that is was magic! Great to drive long distances!

[Edbear]

Got a reply today! Here's the context!

Dear Ed

Thank you for your email to the Ministry of Transport regarding the relative cost of running equivalent petrol and diesel vehicles.

I understand you are concerned that the road user charges (RUC) associated with driving a diesel vehicle may discourage the uptake of these vehicles.

The RUC system is not designed to encourage a particular type of vehicle, it is designed to recover the costs of developing and maintaining New Zealand’s roads. Owners of petrol vehicles pay their share of this cost through fuel excise duty which is included in the price of petrol.

Generally, the RUC system disadvantages petrol vehicles relative to diesel vehicles. The average petrol vehicle consumes around 10 litres of petrol per 100 kilometres. At the current rate of fuel excise duty (48.5 cents a litre, plus GST) this translates to a charge for road use of $55.78 per 1,000 kilometres. This compares with RUC payable of $44.31 per 1,000 kilometres for vehicles up to two tonnes. However, if the petrol vehicle you buy is more fuel efficient, the charge for road use will be less.

Currently, the primary incentive to use any fuel efficient vehicle is the overall lower fuel costs that are paid at the pump.

Using your examples, the Hyundai i45 claims to average 7.9 litres per 100 kilometres. At the current fuel price of $2.219 per litre, this translates to a cost of $175.30 per 1000 kilometres.

For the Mondeo, at 5.6 litres per 100 kilometres, it will cost $91.78 at the pump to drive 1000 kilometres (given the current diesel price of $1.639 per litre). Adding the RUC cost of $44.31 (including GST) gives a total running cost of $136.09.

You can see the clear incentive to drive a fuel efficient diesel vehicle ($136.09 for 1000 kilometres of travel) compared to driving a petrol equivalent ($175.30 per 1000 kilometres), even though the tax charged for road use by the government does not provide any extra incentive.

Reductions in CO2 emissions are being addressed by the government through policies such as the Emissions Trading Scheme, which targets all fuel users and all sources of CO2 emissions.

Thank you for taking the time to email us.

Regards

Matthew Skinner
Adviser
Ministry of Transport – Te Manatū Waka

T: +64 4 439 9261 | www.transport.govt.nz

[avgas]

Yeah but if its that clear cut then why aren't RUC included in petrol price.......

(and before someone mentions generators etc be warned I work with that industry......so I might know a thing or 2).

[Scuba_Steve]

Yeah but if its that clear cut then why aren't RUC included in petrol price.......

(and before someone mentions generators etc be warned I work with that industry......so I might know a thing or 2).

My question would be why aren't all vehicles running RUC's? I believe that would be the best & fairest system as it allows for greater flexibility round pricing
Bring in RUC's for all vehicles I say :yes:

[NinjaNanna]

And there we have it:

Petrol i45 = $44.06 inc gst per 1000km in taxes (79l/1000kms * 48.5c + 15%gst)
Diesel Mondeo = $44.31 inc gst per 1000km in taxes

Government seems to have it right to me

[SMOKEU]

Would you own a 1980's Toyota Surf/Prado Diesel?
If so then the new ones will be fine in 20 years. That was a "high power" turbo version.......most are still on the road now.

Problems with Diesels are usually attributed to poor servicing. Not many people realize they NEED servicing more often then petrols. A petrol will do 50-100K with no service. A diesel will start getting dodgey after 30K.

I wouldn't buy a 2.4L turbo diesel model. Not only do they have a reputation for cracking heads, but a mate of mine has had a few of them and they all seem to chew through alternators.


Yeah but if its that clear cut then why aren't RUC included in petrol price.......



It's too easy to cheat the system. If RUCs were made compulsory on all vehicles used on public roads then there will be a huge increase in people winding back odometers and disconnecting their speedo cable. With the right computer to plug into your cars ECU, it only takes a matter of minutes to give the odometer even on very modern vehicles a severe case of amnesia.

[Edbear]

After my specialist Drs. visit where he cautioned me about both the driving position and getting stuff in and out of the boot, ie: no bending to lift, I was then restricted as to getting a sedan with a conventional boot. So I had to go back over my list and the only sedan type vehicle with a boot I could find acceptable was the Mondeo hatchback. So I started considering more SUV type vehicles. I found the Suzuki SX4 to be very comfortable but fuel consumption rated at 7.6l/100km, (37mpg). The Honda City, while a brilliant wee car, has a deep and long boot, so worse even than the Pulsar.

Then the lovely lady at Honda, :love:, suggested I really take a good look at the Insight, a hybrid hatch with a fuel rating of 4.6l/100km, (61mpg). I was skeptical as it was a 1.3lt petrol with electric motor assist and wondered if it was worth it as we'd looked at the Prius a few years back and discounted it. Too dear to buy and not good enough economy wise to make up for the cost.

Well, I'm sold on the Insight. I took it for a long drive which included steep hills, overtaking, rough winding country roads and the motorway cruise. It goes much better than the 1.6lt Pulsar with performance about that of a 1.8-2lt. It gets up and goes very well with the only criticism being the engine noise when accelerating hard uphill. It works hard for a little 1.3 and sounds like it, but then the car is SO quiet it comes as a surprise to actually hear anything. It accelerated up the Albany hill, the old road, fast enough to overtake other vehicles with ease and once over the top and cruising it was almost silent apart from a wee bit of tyre noise.

Open road overtaking showed good acceleration on part throttle and it didn't feel wanting compared to the Pulsar at all. Auto shut off at the lights stops the engine dead and it was easy to adjust to the slight jump on start up when depressing the throttle to take off. It would be easy to get used to and was no inconveniece and was not intrusive, just noticeable. The seating position was adjustable and I could get high and comfortable and the hatch was capacious and high enough that it was easy to get anything out. With the back seats folded you could sleep two in there.

Usual extras, like cruise control, a very comprehensive trip computer climate air-con, electric everything, nothing much lacking but heated seats really. And the price of $35k, (not what we will wind up paying of course), makes it better value than all the diesels.

It's like the Odyssey's little brother and we really don't need the extra space of the Odyssey and being about $10k cheaper as well, makes much better sense. Especially that 60mpg figure!