Motorcycle Advisory Council launches new website and brand

[p.dath]

For those of you not on the MSL email list, they have created a new web site and "re-branded".

http://motonz.org.nz/

[Spearfish]

Thanks again,
I've signed up this time

[Hitcher]

I've signed up too. I'm always interested in organisations that have access to money.

[cheshirecat]

ditto

and the DOG

[Berries]

Nice to see my 30 bucks contributed to such a pretty website.

[StoneY]

Berries - your 30$ wasn't used for the website
Its paid for out of the ACC Operational budget and is not from MSL funds

The 30$ ONLY gets spent on approved projects that we believe will provide you, the stakeholder, with a measurable return on investment (eg less injuries, deaths, and safer riding environments)


I like the website, I like the logo, and the new brand
Why??? Because its true, you DO own the options and now you all have a place to go, log on, and see whats happening or submit a project for assessment

Motorcyclists Own The Options
:yes:

[Ronin]

Berries - your 30$ wasn't used for the website
Its paid for out of the ACC Operational budget and is not from MSL funds



This is true and something that keeps being said. However they are using the REST of our ACC money to do it. You know, from the huge raise in fee's? So really, they are still making money on the deal.

[StoneY]

This is true and something that keeps being said. However they are using the REST of our ACC money to do it. You know, from the huge raise in fee's? So really, they are still making money on the deal.

Not sure if this is the case, the money from our rego hike goes into the motor vehicle account and does not contribute to ACC's operations budget as far as I am aware (could be wrong tho)

This sites paid for from the ops budget, I will make some inquiries as to the specific funding its paid from and get back to you, but pretty sure it is not part of your reg fee's at all

[Ronin]

Not sure if this is the case, the money from our rego hike goes into the motor vehicle account and does not contribute to ACC's operations budget as far as I am aware (could be wrong tho)

This sites paid for from the ops budget, I will make some inquiries as to the specific funding its paid from and get back to you, but pretty sure it is not part of your reg fee's at all

Semantics. Every cent that ACC has is by definition our money. Registration arguments aside, a percentage of every dollar 'earned' by ACC will go to their operational fund to cover running and administration costs.

We are all stakeholders in every gubberment department one way or another.

[Ronin]

I like this bit:


Adding a $30 Motorcycle Safety Levy (MSL) to each registration would finance the plan and, because it was paid by riders, it would be kept for our priorities.

Not quite what has been said before.

[BoristheBiter]

Not sure if this is the case, the money from our rego hike goes into the motor vehicle account and does not contribute to ACC's operations budget as far as I am aware (could be wrong tho)

This sites paid for from the ops budget, I will make some inquiries as to the specific funding its paid from and get back to you, but pretty sure it is not part of your reg fee's at all


Looks like a good website and start StoneY, i might have to eat my words.

I really don't care (where the moneys from) as I'm sure over the last 40 Years I have got back well over what I have put into the ACC.
I think we should be looking at the care we receive from the hospitals etc that is paid for by ACC, but that is a whole other thread.

[StoneY]

We are all stakeholders in every gubberment department one way or another.

This is true, but I guess other than the existence of an ACC system it is also true of any other democracy?

[Ronin]

I really don't care (where the moneys from) as I'm sure over the last 40 Years I have got back well over what I have put into the ACC.
I think we should be looking at the care we receive from the hospitals etc that is paid for by ACC, but that is a whole other thread.

Good point. I'm not arguing about the money really. I'm arguing about the spin that is put on things to make it more palatable to the masses.

To gain respect the whole thing needs to be transparent, open and honest.

It won't be.

But it should.

[warewolf]

This is such a dangerous road to take.

We should not have to fund our own road safety initiatives. If the PTB think we are that much of a risk, then they should be prioritising fixing our issues over the others. If we're not that much of a risk that they can't prioritise that way, then they should get their grubby mitts out of our pockets.

[Spearfish]

This is true, but I guess other than the existence of an ACC system it is also true of any other democracy?

Over in another KB mosh pit the idea came up of releasing coroners reports relating to bike incidents in the same way reports are published for pilots in their sites and magazine, I'm sorta tentative to suggest it, would the new web site be an appropriate place to make consensual publication available for educational purposes?

I can see some problems unless a high level of dignity and maturity isn't used including under no circumstances a "leave a message" space be provided.

[StoneY]

Over in another KB mosh pit the idea came up of releasing coroners reports relating to bike incidents in the same way reports are published for pilots in their sites and magazine, I'm sorta tentative to suggest it, would the new web site be an appropriate place to make consensual publication available for educational purposes?

I can see some problems unless a high level of dignity and maturity isn't used including under no circumstances a "leave a message" space be provided.

The site will be heavily moderated.
Only postings/messages etc that are sane, non inflammatory, and very UN KBlike will be tolerated I have been told

We have KB to rant on, that site is a formal govt resource and will be held to a far higher standards of professionalism

In other words, no trolls! Just real business and real resources

I doubt Coroners reports will ever be published on it. I do wonder, if maybe we should have a 'coroners corner' here on KB?
Would that be fair to thos the reports are about and their families?
Are they already on another publicly accessible web link at all?

[Spearfish]

The site will be heavily moderated.
Only postings/messages etc that are sane, non inflammatory, and very UN KBlike will be tolerated I have been told

We have KB to rant on, that site is a formal govt resource and will be held to a far higher standards of professionalism

In other words, no trolls! Just real business and real resources

I doubt Coroners reports will ever be published on it. I do wonder, if maybe we should have a 'coroners corner' here on KB?
Would that be fair to thos the reports are about and their families?
Are they already on another publicly accessible web link at all?

Maybe scu reports in there as well?
Where ever the list is formed it would have to be consensual for those involved
I doubt KB is the correct place, I doubt even as a wiki link.
If it is done anywhere it should be the msl site.
Here is a link for the NZ CAA site
http://www.caa.govt.nz/Accidents_and_Incidents/accidents_and_incidents.htm

If ever one is formed it would be a first.

[Katman]

If the PTB think we are that much of a risk, then they should be prioritising fixing our issues over the others.

Yeah, either that or they could just decide to legislate us off the road.

[Katman]

And I think the idea of having coroner's reports and SCU reports available for public perusal is a great idea.

No discussion forum - just the reports.

[warewolf]

Over in another KB mosh pit the idea came up of releasing coroners reports relating to bike incidents in the same way reports are published for pilots in their sites and magazineLast I heard - and this was nearly 10 years ago - there were no trained/certified motorcycle crash inspectors in NZ. Garbage in, Garbage out.

Pilots are already trained to a much higher standard than road users, and the crash analysis is fairly skilled, too. There's already quite a useful pool of knowledge within the motorcycle rider training industry - perhaps it would be more realistic to make more use of training we already have available?

[quickbuck]

Last I heard - and this was nearly 10 years ago - there were no trained/certified motorcycle crash inspectors in NZ. Garbage in, Garbage out.

Pilots are already trained to a much higher standard than road users, and the crash analysis is fairly skilled, too. There's already quite a useful pool of knowledge within the motorcycle rider training industry - perhaps it would be more realistic to make more use of training we already have available?

Funny you should say that....
ACC are working on that too. Watch this space. Well, not quite this one, but lets just say there is going to be a shake up in the licencing system

[StoneY]

Funny you should say that....
ACC are working on that too. Watch this space. Well, not quite this one, but lets just say there is going to be a shake up in the licencing system

The shake up in the licensing system is not ACC's issue to own mate, nor is the crash analysis issue's

Thats NZTA, MOT and Police, it has nothing to do with ACC so why do you think they're involved in either issue?

ACC receive the crash report summaries and have access to the details where needed for their purposes I am told, and they certainly dont set the rules for licens issuing, testing, or renewal.

[quickbuck]

The shake up in the licensing system is not ACC's issue to own mate, nor is the crash analysis issue's

Thats NZTA, MOT and Police, it has nothing to do with ACC so why do you think they're involved in either issue?

ACC receive the crash report summaries and have access to the details where needed for their purposes I am told, and they certainly dont set the rules for licens issuing, testing, or renewal.
Not saying it is a bad thing.
No, ACC are are not the owners, it is indeed NZTA.
Police are only the "Contractors" to enforce the law, so not really them either.

ACC are looking at advanced rider courses to see what s being provided with a view of changing things....
How do I know?
Well, lets just say I have some involvement.
Not going to disclose too much on here though.

[StoneY]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137306-FREE-Motorcycle-Training-Upper-Hutt-22-5-11

Council course run with ACC funding

BRONZ and other such groups already deeply involved with organised courses heavily cross funded by ACC from existing funding pools

Nothing new about that :yes:

[MSTRS]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137306-FREE-Motorcycle-Training-Upper-Hutt-22-5-11

Council course run with ACC funding

BRONZ and other such groups already deeply involved with organised courses heavily cross funded by ACC from existing funding pools

Nothing new about that :yes:

But they do seem to be happening a hell of a lot more than in the past.
This is a good thing.

[StoneY]

But they do seem to be happening a hell of a lot more than in the past.
This is a good thing.

Oh absolutely and I for one am very pleased with the fact this is happening, please don't misunderstand me on this one. :)

[Big Dave]

>>Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot.<<

Get fucked. Who wrote this? Kiwibiker?
I'm all for training if needed but there are many thousands of competent road riders who don't actually need to improve anything. It's not a racetrack as per the example cited.

[MSTRS]

>>Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot.<<

Get fucked.

There are many thousands of competent road riders who don't actually need to improve anything. It's not a racetrack.

That, right there, is the attitude that lead to the shitfight/s in KM's poll thread and my Bitch about bikers thread.
The two sides are diametrically opposed.
Those that believe they have nothing to learn and no need to continually improve their riding skills.
And those that accept that no matter how good we think we are, we can always do better.

Only those who, after riding without incident all their lives, die of old age are qualified to state they had no need to improve.

[Kickaha]

I'm all for training if needed but there are many thousands of competent road riders who don't actually need to improve anything. It's not a racetrack as per the example cited.

No the road isn't a racetrack, it's something a lot more dangerous

[Big Dave]

Whose thread?

I think there are lots of people who do it pretty much as well as it can be done (on the road.)

They ride within the law, use common sense, have survived a long time, have trained, use discretion, mitigate accidents, wear the gear, take responsibility, etc etc. Highly proficient, skilled enthusiasts and many do it 'their' way. There are lots of them. Pay them some dues too.

Semantically the statement is correct. The inference - well OK, it gets people thinking and there are plenty that do need help badly too.

[flyingcrocodile46]

>>Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot.<<

Get fucked. Who wrote this? Kiwibiker?
I'm all for training if needed but there are many thousands of competent road riders who don't actually need to improve anything. It's not a racetrack as per the example cited.


From what I can see, the core posters on KB who are incessantly harping on about this issue have more than adequately verified their own idiocy a thousand times.

Quite frankly I'd rather be suspected to be an idiot through ignorance than be seen to have proven it beyond all doubt through self appointment as some form of moralistic crusading moron who constantly confirms their arrogance and abject stupidity by leveling abuse at the people whom they purport to be attempting to win around to their unrealistic thinking.

Reminds me of dipshits whose dogs run away, calling and calling the dogs only to smack them as soon as they return, because they were naughty for not returning as soon as they are called. :facepalm:

[Big Dave]

No the road isn't a racetrack, it's something a lot more dangerous

Totally agree.

But here's the thing.
Are you an idiot?

[flyingcrocodile46]

That, right there, is the attitude that lead to the shitfight/s in KM's poll thread and my Bitch about bikers thread.
The two sides are diametrically opposed.
Those that believe they have nothing to learn and no need to continually improve their riding skills.
And those that accept that no matter how good we think we are, we can always do better.

Only those who, after riding without incident all their lives, die of old age are qualified to state they had no need to improve.

You forgot to add that the most stupid people of all are often ("those that accept that no matter how good we think we are, we can always do better") and don't have the simple common sense to realise that those who have a different point of view are capable of making their own decisions and that they should bottle up their abundant arrogance and simply shut the fuck up.:yes: Either that or use a more effective approach by way of example and incentive rather than insults. Insults are for expressing frustration (your admission of ineptitude) or simply to smack down loudmouthed fuckheads like yourself who become so bloated with their self importance that they actually become more of a negative than the issues which they purport to champion.

[Big Dave]

Hmmm. Someone who drives a Benz because it has the best safety features says 'we're all idiots'.

[Kickaha]

Are you an idiot?
Frequently

[bogan]

Theres been enough on that issue in other threads recently, keep this one for the MSL/MSAC/MOTO NZ I reckon.

I'd like to see more transparency on the site, the rules that govern the group, etc. And it still reads as if they will be taking up projects that should (and currently do) come under ACC's general fund, again, some guidelines to make sure the MSL isn't just going to cover the same things ACC should/would anyway are needed. Site does looks snazzy, and what's on it reads well, but it's what is missing I'm worried about.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Theres been enough on that issue in other threads recently, keep this one for the MSL/MSAC/MOTO NZ I reckon.

I'd like to see more transparency on the site, the rules that govern the group, etc. And it still reads as if they will be taking up projects that should (and currently do) come under ACC's general fund, again, some guidelines to make sure the MSL isn't just going to cover the same things ACC should/would anyway are needed. Site does looks snazzy, and what's on it reads well, but it's what is missing I'm worried about.

Seems to me that they are going to be a whole lot better positioned (and funded) to make the sort of difference that other groups (Bronze Mag etc) would aspire to. Stoney has done well to recognise this and position himself to make the most of it. Did anyone from Mag take the 'action' of seizing this opportunity?

No point in asking about what is missing from that forum in this forum. The sorts of answers coming from here aren't going to be of any help. This place is like a fractured arsehole

[Big Dave]

Mildly entertaining though.

[bogan]

Seems to me that they are going to be a whole lot better positioned (and funded) to make the sort of difference that other groups (Bronze Mag etc) would aspire to. Stoney has done well to recognise this and position himself to make the most of it. Did anyone from Mag take the 'action' of seizing this opportunity?

We oppose it on the basis of discriminatory funding. The group is a good idea, but should be funded from the general pool as other safety initiatives (of which Bronz and Mag are already part of) are.

[Big Dave]

Frequently

I'm squirreling that away like Jrandom stores comebacks.

[p.dath]

>>Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot.<<

Get fucked. Who wrote this? Kiwibiker?
I'm all for training if needed but there are many thousands of competent road riders who don't actually need to improve anything. It's not a racetrack as per the example cited.

I guess it comes down to an issue of personal beliefs.

For me, obtaining the minimum level of training required to meet the standard of "competent" is a sad state of affairs. Merely being competent enough to avoid killing or injuring yourself does not make you "good".

Long ago the population lived in caves and huts. The population generally strides to improve itself, and now we have houses with power, electricity and running water.
If the attitude of "competent" was applied - the belief you only need to reach high enough to just manage what you need to do, we would still be living in huts and caves and no better off.

So for me personally, I will always strive to improve my riding (and life in general), and wont accept "competent" as being an acceptable level.

[Big Dave]

Yes - it depends on your definition of competent. Mine is stated in #30 for motorcycling.

Edit: you know, there are also many things at which I am happy to be merely competent in the 'ordinary' sense. 10 pin bowling and juggling for examples.

[BMWST?]

>>Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot.<<

Get fucked. Who wrote this? Kiwibiker?
I'm all for training if needed but there are many thousands of competent road riders who don't actually need to improve anything. It's not a racetrack as per the example cited.

EVERY rider can do with the occasional rider training day.I dont think many riders actually practise thir braking.Its a standard rider training day exercise and anyone will benefit.
Questions will be asked re riding situations and practises.Some discussion will ensue and i think this is a good thing because it makes you think about your own riding.This is also a good thing.Go on an advanced course.If you think its of no value at all i will repay you your course fee.

[Big Dave]

EVERY rider can do with the occasional rider training day.I dont think many riders actually practise thir braking.Its a standard rider training day exercise and anyone will benefit.
Questions will be asked re riding situations and practises.Some discussion will ensue and i think this is a good thing because it makes you think about your own riding.This is also a good thing.Go on an advanced course.If you think its of no value at all i will repay you your course fee.

Thanks - but I've been offered every course going already with my gig.
Done some and observed some of them too.

The people I'm thinking of practice almost every day of the week and it's pretty much the entire topic of their conversation.

Co-pilot says I mainly hang with pros (not titutes thank you) and 'tragics' and have to allow for the 80-20 rule. She's right again (shuffles feet) I suppose.

[StoneY]

I'd like to see more transparency on the site, the rules that govern the group, etc. And it still reads as if they will be taking up projects that should (and currently do) come under ACC's general fund, again, some guidelines to make sure the MSL isn't just going to cover the same things ACC should/would anyway are needed. Site does looks snazzy, and what's on it reads well, but it's what is missing I'm worried about.

Mate what more can we give you...its all on that site and the ACC site.
The TOR has been public for months and months. It covers a lot of what anyone needs to know.
Rules now??? Your simply never going to accept its happened and allow it to actually get rolling are you?

The Govt have ring fenced 30$ from each rego on bikes, we are gonna make sure its spent on US and OUR safety.... like the increases or not this is the only factor WE motorcyclists get to control via a group of Motorcyclists that have strong ties to the Motorcycling community....

All this crying about 'it should be paid for from here, or there or by XXX dept' is just adding to the noise.
That's one of the thing we have as a 'rule' is it cannot be spent on otherwise already funded projects.

Wanna know more about it.... then make a submission on the site, ask for assistance with a project.... that's what its there for.

[Big Dave]

My taxes aren't fair Stoney, fix that will you.

[BoristheBiter]

>>Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot.<<

Get fucked. Who wrote this? Kiwibiker?
I'm all for training if needed but there are many thousands of competent road riders who don't actually need to improve anything. It's not a racetrack as per the example cited.

I think it is a Symantec thing.
Look at the MotoGP, they practice as much as they can, do they have more to learn?
Possibly but i doubt it, but we all know practice makes perfect. So instead of saying we all need to learn more maybe it should be we should practice more.
Early on in my short riding life i went to CSS and was quite surprised by the number of older experienced riders that said they learnt something.
Food for thought? or not.

[Big Dave]

I think it is a Symantec thing.
Look at the MotoGP, they practice as much as they can, do they have more to learn?
Possibly but i doubt it, but we all know practice makes perfect. So instead of saying we all need to learn more maybe it should be we should practice more.
Early on in my short riding life i went to CSS and was quite surprised by the number of older experienced riders that said they learnt something.
Food for thought? or not.

Good point - Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying don't do it. Just that there are plenty that have done so - and achieved and maintain the core competencies needed for road riding. Nada idioto.

Me personally, I'd make all licences much harder to get in the first place and would condone a special competency test for bikes over 125 horsepower.

[bogan]

Mate what more can we give you...its all on that site and the ACC site.
The TOR has been public for months and months. It covers a lot of what anyone needs to know.
Rules now??? Your simply never going to accept its happened and allow it to actually get rolling are you?

I'm not doing anything to stop it getting rolling, in fact identifying an area of concern for bikers (unless it is just me?), for MOTO NZ to address may help (if it is addressed).
I think my concerns are valid, I don't want to see MOTO NZ being used as a way for ACC to slowly pull back on funding motorcycle safety initiatives and directly charge us for them instead. Nothing I have seen so far addresses that issue, and tbh, as somebody who "owns the options" I would like to see some sort of guidelines/rules put in to that effect.


That's one of the thing we have as a 'rule' is it cannot be spent on otherwise already funded projects.

That's a start (is this stated anywhere in the public domain?), but what about new projects that do exactly the same thing in a different region? Or discontinued then restarted projects previously funded by ACC? any rules for those sort of occurrences?

[Kickaha]

and would condone a special competency test for bikes over 125 horsepower.

It would be a lot easier just to ban them

[Big Dave]

It would be a lot easier just to ban them

You don't weigh 125kg!

[Ocean1]

that site is a formal govt resource and will be held to a far higher standards of professionalism

So a no ACC, Police or other govt dept input, then?

[Ocean1]

That, right there, is the attitude that lead to the shitfight/s in KM's poll thread and my Bitch about bikers thread.
The two sides are diametrically opposed.
Those that believe they have nothing to learn and no need to continually improve their riding skills.

You're a jerk. As usual, anyone that doesn't immediately accept your premise is either stupid or willfully criminal.

Yes, those you decry are indeed better than you, they find they're confident enough in their abilities that they dont' need to blame every other fucker for their own shortcommings.

Unsurprisingly, they also seem to be the ones that have no trouble minding their own fucking business.

[Big Dave]

Oceans - Edit PM'd instead

[Katman]

Edit: you know, there are also many things at which I am happy to be merely competent in the 'ordinary' sense. 10 pin bowling and juggling for examples.

What if you were juggling chainsaws?

[Ocean1]

What if you were juggling chainsaws?

It's a trick question, innit?

Wait... are you in range?

[Big Dave]

(Holds up eight fingers) 'Did it 10 times'.

[Usarka]

Last I heard - and this was nearly 10 years ago - there were no trained/certified motorcycle crash inspectors in NZ. Garbage in, Garbage out.


That's bang on.

Rule 1 - before you change something you have to be able to measure it.

At the moment the only stats that ACC (or the cops) have that are meaningful and therefore measurable are that x bikes crashed and whether they are single or multi vehicle accident.

It's all moot anyway, I simply don't trust ACC when it comes to stats. I've seen first hand how ACC create their own performance survey stats and it's a joke.

[MSTRS]

You're a jerk. As usual, anyone that doesn't immediately accept your premise is either stupid or willfully criminal.

Please point out any post where I said that.



Yes, those you decry are indeed better than you, they find they're confident enough in their abilities that they dont' need to blame every other fucker for their own shortcommings.

"They" may indeed be better riders than I. Please point out any post where I said they weren't.



Unsurprisingly, they also seem to be the ones that have no trouble minding their own fucking business.
And yet you find it necessary to have a poke at mine...

I see you deleted two lines of my post quoted. Is that because you agree with them, and can't bring yourself to say so?

[Ocean1]

Stuff...

BD says I'm not allowed to abuse the comprehensively challenged.

So I'll be just over here, refraining from commenting on the local and various village idiots’ shortcomings.

[Katman]

BD says I'm not allowed to abuse the comprehensively challenged.



I'm surprised you didn't tell him "Nobody tells me what to fucking do! Mind your own fucking business!".

Did he neuter you?

[Big Dave]

BD says I'm not allowed to abuse the comprehensively challenged.

So I'll be just over here, refraining from commenting on the local and various village idiots’ shortcomings.


Guffaw! - that's nothing like what I said!

[p.dath]

Yes, those you decry are indeed better than you, they find they're confident enough in their abilities that they dont' need to blame every other fucker for their own shortcommings.

The problem is that a lot of people "confident" in their abilities are only confident because they are unable to accurately identify their weaknesses.
Of course you will be confident in your abilities if you can't see anything your doing wrong. Of course, training usually addresses this - because those same people learn what they can't do.

This is especially prevalent in young drivers/riders. Hence the reason why they appear so prominently in accident statistics.

[Smifffy]

Thank you to P.Dath for announcing this. Well done.

A good start, still I'm puzzled as to why it took so long to set up, perhaps they needed to wait for approval on the name & branding?

I am especially looking forward to seeing the 'action' page updated to 'actions' that have been taken and progress made, rather than the thoughts on what would like to be achieved.

I checked out the news for specifics, like the link said, I hope it won't be 3 months between updates on that page.

I'd offer some analysis and opinion of the site if I thought anyone was interested, but I don't want to get into personal shit slinging.

Great start, I'm still not sure what the money is going to be used for, exactly.

[Usarka]

Anyone who says their riding could not be better is an idiot. Most of us know that.

Great way to reach the people who don't get it :rofl:

[Fatt Max]

I'd offer some analysis and opinion of the site if I thought anyone was interested, but I don't want to get into personal shit slinging.

Air your opinion mate, the shit slingers are not worth bothering about. If you make the effort to make an opinion then good the fuck on you I say.

I've spent far too long in circles where, if you wanted my opinion, someone else would give it to you

[warewolf]

The Govt have ring fenced 30$ from each rego on bikesNo, that is untrue. Let's be clear about this: they extorted an EXTRA $34.50 (incl. gst) from each rego on bikes.


this is the only factor WE motorcyclists get to control via a group of Motorcyclists that have strong ties to the Motorcycling community....Which is in itself extremely sad. We shouldn't be charged extra in order to have our say.

We should be endeavoring to not spend a single cent, have all "approved" projects lobbied to be paid for by general revenue, and then claim the extra $30 (ex gst) is not required and revoked. Use the $34.50 for the lobbying if necessary.

[Big Dave]

For the record, Mr Warewolf is one the examples of doing it 'right' I meant.

[Big Dave]

[QUOTE=Fatt Max;1130056173]Air your opinion mate,


When we want your opinion - I'll give it.

[Smifffy]

Air your opinion mate, the shit slingers are not worth bothering about. If you make the effort to make an opinion then good the fuck on you I say.

I've spent far too long in circles where, if you wanted my opinion, someone else would give it to you

Thanks, I sent my opinion to the contact email on the site. Will wait and see what they have to say, if I get a reply, no doubt they are very busy.

[Fatt Max]

[QUOTE=Fatt Max;1130056173]Air your opinion mate,


When we want your opinion - I'll give it.

Are you my missus in disguise.....??

[Howie]

What an interesting website MotoNZ is, I disagree with at least one of the examples they use on there action page, but not going to comment on that here. The other thing I find interesting is that they have the sign up for updates advertisement on every page. this to me show's a sign of a self serving organisation which wants people to sign up so that they can say look at us, we have X'000's of people who are interested and support us. One contact page would be enough. However in saying that I'm totally against the seperate levy, and most if anything that comes from it could have been acheived from the general levy, or through other organisation's/ GOVT departments that already exist.

I for one well not sign up for updates as I do not want to be counted as one of those who buy into the singling out of motorcyclist's.

[MSTRS]

However in saying that I'm totally against the seperate levy, and most if anything that comes from it could have been acheived from the general levy, or through other organisation's/ GOVT departments that already exist.

I for one well not sign up for updates as I do not want to be counted as one of those who buy into the singling out of motorcyclist's.

Reckon most of us would totally agree with those sentiments. I agree that the whole thing could be have been done via the general fund.
Trouble is - we HAVE been singled out. 'Buying into' or ignoring it isn't going to change anything. And I don't see the govt repealing it, any time soon.

Climbing on board with the effort to improve poor m/c crash stats may be seen as a sell-out. But is it, really? If these efforts (whatever they are) work, then a whole lot of riders, and their friends and families will not have to suffer as many tragedies. Isn't that a good thing?

[Big Dave]

But conversely in this case they are singling you out for benefit. OK - you have to pay for it, but...

Personally I don't care about $35. Particularly if it's getting Stoney cheap hookers, booze and junkets to Thailand.

[Ocean1]

But is it, really?

And did they get you to trade
Your heros for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
A walk on part in the war
For a lead role in a cage?

[bogan]

But conversely in this case they are singling you out for benefit.

That remains to be seen, I'd be a lot more inclined to agree if my concerns in post #49 were addressed.

[flyingcrocodile46]

That remains to be seen, I'd be a lot more inclined to agree if my concerns in post #49 were addressed.

Your concerns in post 49 are unfounded (at this point in time) as they haven't even happened and there is (as far as I am aware) nothing of substance to suggest that they will. Do you stop doing everything else (like riding your bike) simply because you can't rule out the possibility that something untoward will likely happen one day, or do you get out there and enjoy the ride until more tangible evidence comes along?

[bogan]

Your concerns in post 49 are unfounded (at this point in time) as they haven't even happened and there is (as far as I am aware) nothing of substance to suggest that they will. Do you stop doing everything else (like riding your bike) simply because you can't rule out the possibility that something untoward will likely happen one day, or do you get out there and enjoy the ride until more tangible evidence comes along?

And I'd like it to stay that way. However the site reads as if any and all proposals should go through them, no mention of the fact that ACC can fund some out of the general pool. Will MOTO NZ pass on proposals to ACC for access to their general funds? or will they advise those eligible to apply to ACC instead? or will they just make a call on which are most deserving of their funds and go with them? It seems to me that this is something that should be addressed.

Going with your example, I realise that something untoward might happen, so take steps to avoid it, like learning to ride better, and riding within my limits etc. I would like to see MOTO NZ take steps to avoid the above untoward circumstance.

[flyingcrocodile46]

And I'd like it to stay that way. However the site reads as if any and all proposals should go through them, no mention of the fact that ACC can fund some out of the general pool. Will MOTO NZ pass on proposals to ACC for access to their general funds? or will they advise those eligible to apply to ACC instead? or will they just make a call on which are most deserving of their funds and go with them? It seems to me that this is something that should be addressed.

It seems to me that the issues you are concerned about here won't get advanced unless they are put to Moto NZ. Have you any thoughts as to how Moto NZ should be made aware of your concerns (outside of inviting them to come here to respond). Or is it your intent that these (as yet fictional) concerns should only be voiced where they are unlikely to see them?


Going with your example, I realise that something untoward might happen, so take steps to avoid it, like learning to ride better, and riding within my limits etc. I would like to see MOTO NZ take steps to avoid the above untoward circumstance.

Right. So why don't you get on your bike (read as go ask Moto NZ instead of us)?

[bogan]

It seems to me that the issues you are concerned about here won't get advanced unless they are put to Moto NZ. Have you any thoughts as to how Moto NZ should be made aware of your concerns (outside of inviting them to come here to respond). Or is it your intent that these (as yet fictional) concerns should only be voiced where they are unlikely to see them?

Yeh I plan on contacting them through the site, but figure it can't hurt to air my concerns here in case I've got it wrong, or overlooked something (it has happened before :innocent:).

[Smifffy]

What an interesting website MotoNZ is, I disagree with at least one of the examples they use on there action page, but not going to comment on that here. The other thing I find interesting is that they have the sign up for updates advertisement on every page. this to me show's a sign of a self serving organisation which wants people to sign up so that they can say look at us, we have X'000's of people who are interested and support us. One contact page would be enough. However in saying that I'm totally against the seperate levy, and most if anything that comes from it could have been acheived from the general levy, or through other organisation's/ GOVT departments that already exist.

I for one well not sign up for updates as I do not want to be counted as one of those who buy into the singling out of motorcyclist's.

Agreed, I will be interested to see whether my email addy gets added to their mailing list since I used their contact form to ask them questions regarding my concerns over their 'action' page.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Yeh I plan on contacting them through the site, but figure it can't hurt to air my concerns here in case I've got it wrong, or overlooked something (it has happened before :innocent:).

That is good to hear as skeptical readers might otherwise misinterpret your intentions as simply mischievous.

[Usarka]

Yeh I plan on contacting them through the site, but figure it can't hurt to air my concerns here in case I've got it wrong, or overlooked something (it has happened before :innocent:).

I think your concerns are valid. Even if that's not the intention now, governments and ACC are quite good at changing things later, and the first step is the hardest.



Your concerns in post 49 are unfounded (at this point in time) as they haven't even happened and there is (as far as I am aware) nothing of substance to suggest that they will. Do you stop doing everything else (like riding your bike) simply because you can't rule out the possibility that something untoward will likely happen one day, or do you get out there and enjoy the ride until more tangible evidence comes along?
That's a tad ostrich-ish. Do you wear protective gear when you ride? If so why, do you have substancial evidence to show that you're going to crash? No. You see it as a possibility and therefore take measures to mitigate the risk, which is precisely what bogan is trying to do.

There are two separate issues at play 1) the work of the new council which has yet to be proven but at this point has no evidence to suggest anything negative, and 2) the way the government is shafting motorcyclists especially under a "no fault" system, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that they will continue to do this.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I think your concerns are valid. Even if that's not the intention now, governments and ACC are quite good at changing things later, and the first step is the hardest.

And making a difference is easier from the inside than the outside.



That's a tad ostrich-ish. Do you wear protective gear when you ride? If so why, do you have substancial evidence to show that you're going to crash? No. You see it as a possibility and therefore take measures to mitigate the risk, which is precisely what bogan is trying to do.

Now he has said he is going to ask his questions where he is likely to receive informed answers I would agree. Prior to his last post however it appeared that he was refusing to get on his bike and ride.. period.

[bogan]

Now he has said he is going to ask his questions where he is likely to receive informed answers I would agree. Prior to his last post however it appeared that he was refusing to get on his bike and ride.. period.

Perhaps that is a reason to address the posted content, rather than make assumptions about the poster :innocent:

[Fatt Max]

There are two separate issues at play 1) the work of the new council which has yet to be proven but at this point has no evidence to suggest anything negative, and 2) the way the government is shafting motorcyclists especially under a "no fault" system, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that they will continue to do this.

Totally agree with this one. And good on Bogan for making the right noises. I've registered on the site and will continue to ask questions as they arise. My intial correspondance was to congratulate them for putting the site up in the first place as a lot of concern was expressed as to how the council could be questioned.

I have said before and will say again, I am against the levy and all other stealth taxes applied to bikers but I do see this site as a spy glass to utlise as a lobbying tool. I beleive we must continue to monitor statistics (and their sources of course) to see what action is taken as the crash rate comes down (a reduction in levy would be the first one out of the traps).

I know Bogan and the MAG guys will continue their work in this area and keep us all informed as they go, just as long as the petty swiping and jibing at them does not detract them from their work (I dont think it will as most of the bullshit directed at them and others fighting the fight is exactly that).

Keep at them on this through their site. Follow up, question, argue, shout, holler and debate. Be a fucking pain in the arse (we can ALL do that) because there are people on that council who have sworn to do what is right and make sure the right thing is done. Support them in their work and, above all, make the results matter.

This website is a conduit for communication. Lets test and measure it.

Peace xx

[Katman]

Climbing on board with the effort to improve poor m/c crash stats may be seen as a sell-out. But is it, really? If these efforts (whatever they are) work, then a whole lot of riders, and their friends and families will not have to suffer as many tragedies. Isn't that a good thing?

Even if it didn't achieve any change in the governments attitude towards us we'd still be winning.

[Smifffy]

My Feedback, posted to their email:

Hello, thank you for the website.

I will follow the developments with much interest, and hope that news updates become more frequent with time.

I am somewhat puzzled by the 'action' section of the website, as it appears largely incongruent with the new name/motto of your organisation.

Motorcyclists own the options. When I read the list of 'actions' I see:
Better roads
Surface hazards
Signage
What you hit (dangerous roadside features)
Getting seen
Better riding

Of all of these options, the only ones that I feel I 'own' as a motorcyclist, are the undertaking of training, and the wearing of hi-vis, all of the remainder are owned by other people/departments/entities. Is Moto NZ in a position to determine the priorities of these other entities, such as roading providers/contractors?

I feel that if motorcyclists do own the options, then the specific options should be made clear.

Sincerely

[MSTRS]

Perhaps that is a reason to address the posted content, rather than make assumptions about the poster :innocent:

Ya what? Play the ball, not the man? You are joking, right?

[flyingcrocodile46]

Ya what? Play the ball, not the man? You are joking, right?

Some of you know no shame (with your bald faced pkb's) and focus so much on interfering with the ball and deliberately playing offside (or on the wrong field altogether) in an effort to confuse others and detract from REAL issues that the game itself becomes unrecognisable. One can't help but question whether you are team players with an honorable objective or simply playing with yourselves for the benefit of an audience.

You in particular I have no doubt about.

[MSTRS]

Sad little man. There's pills that can help with that attitude, you know.

[BoristheBiter]

Sad little man. There's pills that can help with that attitude, you know.

Birth control??

[p.dath]

Birth control??

Abortion ...

[StoneY]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137786-Ride-the-loop-for-MSAC-as-part-of-our-first-major-project

[MrKiwi]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137786-Ride-the-loop-for-MSAC-as-part-of-our-first-major-project

I should ride my bike up for this, but I'm not. Done too much wet weather riding of late! See you at the race track StoneY. Cheers.

[Eyegasm]

No, that is untrue. Let's be clear about this: they extorted an EXTRA $34.50 (incl. gst) from each rego on bikes.

Which is in itself extremely sad. We shouldn't be charged extra in order to have our say.

We should be endeavoring to not spend a single cent, have all "approved" projects lobbied to be paid for by general revenue, and then claim the extra $30 (ex gst) is not required and revoked. Use the $34.50 for the lobbying if necessary.

Wow, never thought of it that way.


My Feedback, posted to their email:

Hello, thank you for the website.

I will follow the developments with much interest, and hope that news updates become more frequent with time.

I am somewhat puzzled by the 'action' section of the website, as it appears largely incongruent with the new name/motto of your organisation.

Motorcyclists own the options. When I read the list of 'actions' I see:
Better roads
Surface hazards
Signage
What you hit (dangerous roadside features)
Getting seen
Better riding

Of all of these options, the only ones that I feel I 'own' as a motorcyclist, are the undertaking of training, and the wearing of hi-vis, all of the remainder are owned by other people/departments/entities. Is Moto NZ in a position to determine the priorities of these other entities, such as roading providers/contractors?

I feel that if motorcyclists do own the options, then the specific options should be made clear.

Sincerely

Nice, will be good to see the response...

[avgas]

No the road isn't a racetrack, it's something a lot more dangerous
And fun.........

[Smifffy]

Nice, will be good to see the response...

Got a reply yesterday, from Phil Wright Secretariat.

Guts of it:

Thanked for comments, will pass them to website committee.

The coro loop ride project.

Thank you for shopping at Kwik-E-Mart, please come again.


Cool.

[bogan]

Got a reply yesterday, from Phil Wright Secretariat.

Guts of it:

Thanked for comments, will pass them to website committee.

The coro loop ride project.

Thank you for shopping at Kwik-E-Mart, please come again.


Cool.

I got similar but mine is going all the way to the council!

[cheshirecat]

Just a note on the positive. I emailed MAC re the strips of high slip tar on the Welly MW traveling north. Don't think I was the only one but lo and behold this morning in that lovely rain some of strips had the surface removed - Well done

[Berries]

I just had to renew my rego again so thought it was an opportune time to see what has been done with my last $30 and how much safer I now am.

Next.

[oneofsix]

I just had to renew my rego again so thought it was an opportune time to see what has been done with my last $30 and how much safer I now am.

Next.

So now you have a nice warm contented feeling that you have done something useful with $30 :banana:
Don't forget to text dung or whatever.

[Smifffy]

Gareth is busy on the campaign trail.

Ironic really, cos there's plenty of dung on that track!!

[blackdog]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/137786-Ride-the-loop-for-MSAC-as-part-of-our-first-major-project

So how'd that work out for you?

[bogan]

They just opened a new debate! I got a personal reply from Gareth regarding my questions on the last debate, but its confidential apparently, not sure why the reply wasn't made on the site debate thread.... maybe if I get in earlier this time! But reading the debate material, it is basically the same as last time, but in more detail.

Despite the fact that only one of the guys on their site banner is wearing high vis, the impression I get is that is where it's heading, I really hope not as they seem to be in a research phase, and even a small amount of research would tell you that's not a cure-all.

[Usarka]

Despite the fact that only one of the guys on their site banner is wearing high vis, the impression I get is that is where it's heading, I really hope not as they seem to be in a research phase, and even a small amount of research would tell you that's not a cure-all.

Reaserch results are easily interpreted to fit the desired outcome.

[Berries]

I just had to renew my rego again so thought it was an opportune time to see what has been done with my last $30 and how much safer I now am.
I have to park on the street and have seen the wardens ticketing bikes for no rego so renewed mine online this morning. Pulled up at the lights on the way home next to some cruiser type bike and noticed the rego on his swingarm had 2009 on it. How I laughed.


They just opened a new debate! I got a personal reply from Gareth regarding my questions on the last debate, but its confidential apparently, not sure why the reply wasn't made on the site debate thread.... maybe if I get in earlier this time! But reading the debate material, it is basically the same as last time, but in more detail.

Despite the fact that only one of the guys on their site banner is wearing high vis, the impression I get is that is where it's heading.
Me too, and I always have. What else is there? You have always been able to report problem spots, or cow shit, all you have to do is pick up the phone (or moan on KB for the slackers) so nothing new there. The March 2011 info they are posting might be of interest to some, but Sam has nailed it. Not one crash tells you why it happened which is the only thing of true interest if you want to stop it happening again. It is a simple output from the crash database with too much information missing. Information which is in fact available, like how pissed was the rider? Or the car driver who hit him?

Then I had a look for crashes I might know about and noticed straight away that the first two crashes down south were on the same street in Dunedin. Looks a bit suspect that one. Because of the random order the crashes are listed I can only assume it is by date and with only one line between them either it was a bad day on Thorn Street, which isn't quite our version of the Coro loop, or the data has a few problems.

EDIT - What do you know, I was wrong. There were two crashes on Thorn Street on the same day. I do apologise.

[StoneY]

............. or the data has a few problems.

Thats the one mate, that right there.

Morgan apparently thinks 250cc Kawasaki's being recorded as 2,500 cc kawasaki's is not a big issue
In a sample of 50 thats a HUGE discrepancy

Dr Lamb found no less than 7 abysmally incorrect entries in the 09 data
When he explained this to the MSAC (I got the good Dr a speaking slot with them) quite a few of our safety representatives on the council tried to find flaws with the Dr's analysis, one was even saying 'but he has only looked at MVA's (bike vs whatever else was involved)....
And that's what his paper was written on, MVA's DUH!

Anyhow, I dared to post the good Doctors information on this website, and was accused by some gutless runt in the council of placing council information on Kiwibiker - never mind Dr Lambs presentation had already been published in like 4 other journals and such worldwide and was publicly accessible info anyway..........

I had high hopes for this group until I saw the study into visibility issues turn to a hi viz focus, and the constant monitoring of what StoneY says on Kiwibiker was pathetic.

Kiwibiker is how I became known to them to start with, what the fuck did they expect?
This is where BIKEOI was formed and planned, this is where I (and they too) could openly liaise with NZ riders (the motonz website is a fuckin joke, I get so many complaints no ones answered my e-mail etc...) and while I had high hopes that it would cut through the government secrecy bollocks and just work openly with bikers, I gotta say.... EPIC FAIL so far Gareth and co.

The coro loop event, perfect example of the total waste of money to date by this group.
Shit on the roads and hi viz... ffs...
Lost direction is an understatement.

[oneofsix]

I while I had high hopes that it would cut through the government secrecy bollocks and just work openly with bikers, I gotta say.... EPIC FAIL so far Gareth and co.


Open and honest group set up by an open and honest government. Cup of tea anyone?

[Berries]

Morgan apparently thinks 250cc Kawasaki's being recorded as 2,500 cc kawasaki's is not a big issue
I still want to see a drag race between the FJ 7100 and the VFR 4000 they have lurking in the data.

[StoneY]

Open and honest group set up by an open and honest government. Cup of tea anyone?
Only if its Earl Grey
:yes:

[Fatt Max]

Only if its Earl Grey
:yes:

Dude, Eatl Grey....for fuck's sake......

[StoneY]

Dude, Eatl Grey....for fuck's sake......

DOH!
FBMC styles:Punk: