Interesting Rossi/Ducati article...

[gav]

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/New-bikes/2011/May/25/

What if Rossi can't win on the Ducati? Is it the bike at fault or Rossi? Afterall the bike won races last year with Stoner on board. Its a lot more competitive than the Yamaha was when Rossi first joined there.
I think Rossi will win a race this year but don't think he will be in the championship hunt.

[TonyB]

That is interesting. Especially the end of the article- if his theory is right then perhaps it really is the next big thing- there's just something else they need to figure out first.

How long have Ducati bikes used the monocoque tech Gav? I remember seeing images of Stoner on the Ducati from a few years back with his wheels visibly out of line, like the bike was twisting:shit: If he managed to win on a flexible bike, and one thats too stiff... how good is he???

[slowpoke]

Its a lot more competitive than the Yamaha was when Rossi first joined there.


It's a totally different racing landscape these days, compared to when Rossi first jumped on the M1. Back then we were stuggling to come up with legitimate contenders who could challenge Rossi for the championship. There wasn't a single other past premier class champion in the field.

Now he's racing against 3 other past or present MotoGP champions and is only 1 of 4 "aliens". And no-one would be suprised if Dovi, Speez or Simoncelli popped up for a win either.

The number of riders/teams may be down but I reckon the quality of the field is as high, if not higher than it's been in a long time.

[Mental Trousers]

What they need to figure out is that carbon fibre isn't the material to use for this sort of chassis. Not the way Ducati's designed it anyway, ie conventional forks with a head stock.

John Britten showed how you use carbon fibre in a monocoque chassis - get rid of the forks.

Bet the MotoGP Ducati would suddenly be a whole hell of a lot better to ride if they made an alloy "stressed airbox".

[Mental Trousers]

It's a totally different racing landscape these days, compared to when Rossi first jumped on the M1. Back then we were stuggling to come up with legitimate contenders who could challenge Rossi for the championship. There wasn't a single other past premier class champion in the field.

Now he's racing against 3 other past or present MotoGP champions and is only 1 of 4 "aliens". And no-one would be suprised if Dovi, Speez or Simoncelli popped up for a win either.

The number of riders/teams may be down but I reckon the quality of the field is as high, if not higher than it's been in a long time.

You're not wrong there mate :niceone:

[AllanB]

I've a really nice Rossi cap. I'll keep wearing it.

It is the chassi and suspension development in the 600 class that interests me - a fair few abnormal options being developed there.

[Brian d marge]

What they need to figure out is that carbon fibre isn't the material to use for this sort of chassis. Not the way Ducati's designed it anyway, ie conventional forks with a head stock.

John Britten showed how you use carbon fibre in a monocoque chassis - get rid of the forks.

Bet the MotoGP Ducati would suddenly be a whole hell of a lot better to ride if they made an alloy "stressed airbox".
I take it you design parts for a living then,,,

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

I've a really nice Rossi cap. I'll keep wearing it.

It is the chassi and suspension development in the 600 class that interests me - a fair few abnormal options being developed there.

Yes there is some mighty interesting ones , Ive posted a picture of one a few weeks back...go Moto2

Burgess said that rather than make the rider fit the bike , he wants to make the bike work bike fit rider

I agree, and If I was Rossi , or in that team, I would love the challenge ,
If ducati , dont react to the advice , ( what stoner alluded to ,,," ive been asking for those bits for ages " then yes , sux to be rossi

On saying the above , and I dont know if its at all linked ,,but on the FEA forum I am part off there has been an increase postings about sandwich techniques for FEA ..I wonder,,,,,,

[Mental Trousers]

I take it you design parts for a living then,,,

Stephen

They've got geniuses working on designing these things but it's not working out. Time to change something, like the rider for instance. They got Rossi in. So far he's helping improve it but we've yet to see if that's enough. Probably isn't. So they'll have to change something else.

[Brian d marge]

They've got geniuses working on designing these things but it's not working out. Time to change something, like the rider for instance. They got Rossi in. So far he's helping improve it but we've yet to see if that's enough. Probably isn't. So they'll have to change something else.
Its not working because its a huge Job. IF they get it right , the paybacks will be good. Think of it as losing a battle to win the war

BUT

if they lose the wrong battle, it could go tits up , IN THAT case you will see them cut the losses and run

IF you rely on Motogp to sell bikes ( ducati?) then race losses may not be a good thing , but if you rely on motogp to innovate and try new designs ... fine

I dont know about Italian designers , my image is they use cutting edge tech and are very individualistic , the Japanese I do know and are a safe stick in the mud types ... ( Poms with out the winging )

all ImHO of course

Stephen

[Mental Trousers]

Ducati have thrown their lot into MotoGP. They canned their WSBK team and changed to backing a private team instead. Ducati have linked racing success to their sales. They are very much a racing improves the breed type company.

Will be interesting to see how things go. Personally, I hope Ducati and Rossi both do well in the rest of this season and all of next season.

Using the right material for the job is needed and it looks to me like carbon fibre isn't a good match for a frame (my opinion of course)

[gixerracer]

What they need to figure out is that carbon fibre isn't the material to use for this sort of chassis. Not the way Ducati's designed it anyway, ie conventional forks with a head stock.

John Britten showed how you use carbon fibre in a monocoque chassis - get rid of the forks.

Bet the MotoGP Ducati would suddenly be a whole hell of a lot better to ride if they made an alloy "stressed airbox".

Get rid of the forks??
The rider of the Britten wanted John to put conventional forks on it as he wreckons he could have gone 2 seconds a lap faster on them.

[lostinflyz]

You have to remember too that carbon fibre takes a fair old while to make a new mould for and lay up and cure ect ect (i seem to remember presioso saying somewhere it takes 2 weeks to just manufacture a chassis). Its not like alloy where you can make 20 extrusion tools, weld up 20 different chassis's and test them all. Design is all about compromise, when you add flex in one part, it may make another part too rigid, or too soft or cause the path of forces to change unexpectedly ect ect. You can try a million different simulations but any FEA or similar calculation only ever covers what you ask it to cover, it can't predict things you don't tell it to predict. Until you have actually built the thing and tested it, you never fully know what the end result will be.

In the end any idea that Rossi's team developed at the first sepang test re: CF chassis ect, could probably only be beginning to realized now if it was not very similar to the existing chassis. Now that i think about it, weren't they trying a new chassis at estoril??

[Mental Trousers]

Get rid of the forks??
The rider of the Britten wanted John to put conventional forks on it as he wreckons he could have gone 2 seconds a lap faster on them.

I talked to Shaun ages ago about the Britten and he reckoned it was a bike you stepped away from and let everyone else do stuff. The rider didn't have as much input as they do on most bikes.

Don't know what Stroudy or McEwan reckon about it though.

[Brian d marge]

You have to remember too that carbon fibre takes a fair old while to make a new mould for and lay up and cure ect ect (i seem to remember presioso saying somewhere it takes 2 weeks to just manufacture a chassis). Its not like alloy where you can make 20 extrusion tools, weld up 20 different chassis's and test them all. Design is all about compromise, when you add flex in one part, it may make another part too rigid, or too soft or cause the path of forces to change unexpectedly ect ect. You can try a million different simulations but any FEA or similar calculation only ever covers what you ask it to cover, it can't predict things you don't tell it to predict. Until you have actually built the thing and tested it, you never fully know what the end result will be.

In the end any idea that Rossi's team developed at the first sepang test re: CF chassis ect, could probably only be beginning to realized now if it was not very similar to the existing chassis. Now that i think about it, weren't they trying a new chassis at estoril??

Ive have some research paper from and Italian Engineer who looked at the trellis frame using FEA it will cut down development testing , but yes the proof of the pudding is riding the damn thing

I Think ( guess) the Italians are using an ART to PART approach ,,, which gets my knees a quivering , as are Virgin Racing ....

As I am to .. even on my Motofail Enfield... due to the loss of my big workshop last year and moving into a cupboard , I have had to rely on the computer to get my parts designed and tested and made. Art to part.

For me I use CAELINUX. then send the finished file either to America to be machined ( its all online , you just upload the part to the machine and 10 days later it arrives on your doorstep.) or I send it to Shapeways in Holland for rapid prototyping ( as the NZ company in CHCH was waaaay too expensive )

My current project for the failfield is combustion chamber flow, but I am am having trouble modeling it...... manifolds again ,,,,,,,,

anyway back on topic ...

They were ( Im pretty sure can someone verify?? ) using the new chassis at estoril but they said there was a new electronic package ..

I hope Rossi does win at least one or two races , and Virgin Racing get a few points

Stephen

[Mental Trousers]

Weren't they testing the GP12 chassis after Estoril with an eye to racing it this year, as in the next race or so?? Timings right for it to be the product of the first lot of testing Rossi did.

[malcy25]

You have all missed the point....that the article was in MCN means it can be completely ignored!:facepalm:

[Cleve]

You have all missed the point....that the article was in MCN means it can be completely ignored!:facepalm:

agree 100%