Graham Capell [Archive] - Kiwi Biker forums

vifferman

29th June 2005, 09:55

Generalizing from specific incidents may be unwise, but one can't help wondering whether the hypocrisy unveiled here isn't a lot more widespread than most people believe. The mask of piety will always be a convenient cover for evil. The louder the denunciation of other people's sins, the more one points the finger at oneself...
It's very interesting you should say that, Mike, and often very true.
Some years ago, I wasn't the evil person I am now :devil2: and was actually a very devout Christian (Yes, even more so than Zed, believe it or not) :whocares:

One of the pastors of the church I attended was very big on preaching about adultery. He also 'sermoned' once about exactly what you said: "The louder the denunciation of other people's sins, the more one points the finger at oneself".
Not a huge surprise than that he left the church (and the country) after being caught out having an affair ...
Perhaps him mentioning it was sort of a tacit confession to help assuage some of the guilt... ? :spudwhat: And maybe Capill was the same - trying to atone for his own sins by denouncing them in the hope others wouldn't go astray?

29th June 2005, 09:55

This really infuriates me, the man stated on TV a few years ago about how NZ needed to crack down on children being sexually abused. And he was doing it the whole time, how can someone be that sick? Obviously the man has no remorse for what he has done or is still doing now. It just shows how sick this guy is, its the heavily religious. This person is/was in the Christian Heritage Party. So now he has the support of the Christian public because they look up to him as a good leader and if god can forgive him for his sins..etc

29th June 2005, 09:58

True, and so many "Christians" seem to overlook the strictures against false prophets.
And the Catholics

Hitcher

29th June 2005, 10:16

There is some good news. Public disgust at Mr Capill should be enough to keep the Density Church Party out of Parliament...

29th June 2005, 10:34

There is some good news. Public disgust at Mr Capill should be enough to keep the Density Church Party out of Parliament...
I seriously doubt that... But wish it would.

WINJA

29th June 2005, 11:25

Hitcher

29th June 2005, 11:31

I seriously doubt that... But wish it would.
Come on. Density is currently polling at less than the margin of error. It would take the Second Coming to push them over 5 percent. Fear not!

MSTRS

29th June 2005, 11:38

.....Second Coming .....
Careful - with all those kids around, that may not be so diffiCULT

Paul in NZ

29th June 2005, 11:39

I’m honestly not sure what to think about this.

The easy thing is to hurl abuse and feel all smug that one of the bible thumpers is exposed as having feet of clay etc etc. And lets face it, it’s a nasty, horrible thing he did!

The hard question is why did he do it? And, having done it, does that mean everything he did or said is actually wrong? Did he become a minister / leader to prey on these kids of did the position of trust merely sparking something latent?

It’s when I start asking these questions that I start getting ‘uncomfortable’.

Bad people are not 100% evil and good people are not 100% good all the time either.

Not saying he does not deserve this… He does! But it’s just too easy to gloat at someone that’s worse than we are while ignoring our own faults and vices.

Maybe we should not be so smug, maybe we should strive to be better people because of this sort of thing occurring in society. Lifting our own game would be an apt response, I certainly know I’m far from perfect and at times (usually unintentionally) I come across as a real bastard. I think I better work on that!

Cheers

Fart

29th June 2005, 11:40

This is a monster and he needs to be castrated before throwing into the slammer.

Castrate him and all those that sexually abuse children. :mad:

spudchucka

29th June 2005, 11:40

It would take the Second Coming......
So are you talking about Capill or Tamaki now???.

bear

29th June 2005, 11:45

Capill deserves whatever he gets in the slammer!

Destiny Church getting into government - wouldn't that depend on the number of members the church has? Who else would vote for them?

Tamaki is gay - wouldn't surprise me.

vifferman

29th June 2005, 11:49

The easy thing is to hurl abuse and feel all smug that one of the bible thumpers is exposed as having feet of clay etc etc. And lets face it, it’s a nasty, horrible thing he did!
...
Bad people are not 100% evil and good people are not 100% good all the time either.
...
Maybe we should not be so smug, maybe we should strive to be better people because of this sort of thing occurring in society.
Well said, Paul.

Zed

29th June 2005, 12:21

Badcat

29th June 2005, 12:28

He is a complete embarrassment to the cause of Christ and Christianity, and I and my local church (we have been discussing him for some weeks now) are totally ashamed of him! His deceit and perverted actions bring reproach upon the name of Jesus Christ and I would not want to be in his shoes when he faces his Maker.

Unfortunately this type of gross sin is a major hindrance to the main purpose of the Christian Church, which is bringing people to Jesus Christ and not turning them away! This loser is not a representative of the truth but rather a deceiver.

If any of you good people use this man's poor example to justify your rejection of Christianity, you are making a big mistake. The only person who is fit to exemplify is Jesus Christ himself, and there's no fault in Him!

you're right.
there are some total retard motorcyclists out there - but none of us would like to be judged by their actions.

i was interested to see capill's walk (on TV) from the courtroom - he was so obviously reliving the attack he experienced last time.
if there is a fund to contribute to legal costs of the man who smacked him, and showed him as the whining, crying little maggot he is, i'd happily throw him some dosh.

As a parent, i'd like just 5 minutes alone with him (capill).
i just want to talk to him....

MSTRS

29th June 2005, 12:32

He is a complete embarrassment to the cause of Christ and Christianity, and I and my local church (we have been discussing him for some weeks now) are totally ashamed of him! His deceit and perverted actions bring reproach upon the name of Jesus Christ and I would not want to be in his shoes when he faces his Maker.

Unfortunately this type of gross sin is a major hindrance to the main purpose of the Christian Church, which is bringing people to Jesus Christ and not turning them away! This loser is not a representative of the truth but rather a deceiver.

If any of you good people use this man's poor example to justify your rejection of Christianity, you are making a big mistake. The only person who is fit to exemplify is Jesus Christ himself, and there's no fault in Him!
You are right, Zed, but don't forget that rhetoric is what impresses people. Only deeds with enough time & circumstance will give the (truth or) lie to the words. And then the former listeners will feel betrayed & mocked, so along with the (evil)doer, his 'cause' will be suspect too.

Zed

29th June 2005, 12:38

Some years ago, I wasn't the evil person I am now :devil2: and was actually a very devout Christian (Yes, even more so than Zed, believe it or not)You just broke a fundamental 'no no' in Christianity vifferman, comparing your devotion to another Christian you are called "unwise" (2 Cori 10:12).

It does spark some interest with me however, that you would make such a comment publicly. Pray tell, why do you think you were more devout than me? :whistle:

vifferman

29th June 2005, 12:47

You just broke a fundamental 'no no' in Christianity vifferman, comparing your devotion to another Christian you are called "unwise" (2 Cori 10:12).
Oops. :o

It does spark some interest with me however, that you would make such a comment publicly. Pray tell, why do you think you were more devout than me? :whistle:
Hmmm... [thinking....thinking......... trying to think... trying....]

Maybe that was a very silly 'spur of the moment' statement, like "very honest". You're either devout, or not.
Hot or not.
Laodicean or not.

Eejit or not....

Or summat.

placidfemme

29th June 2005, 12:49

*throws in my 2 cents*

I don't think any Christain is better than any other Christian... everyone sins (I'm sure even Zed does), and apparantly no sin is greater than another sin (Other than the first comandment I think??). So yeah...

*takes back my 2 cents... puts it in my piggy bank and walks away*

Blackbird

29th June 2005, 12:50

Injecting a slight bit of levity, has anyone noticed Graham Capills "evangelistic hair???? You could interchange him with any of the American televangelists, particularly the ones like Jimmy Bakker who were also exposed (pardon the pun) for coveting other people's wives and daughters.

Any sociology student fancy doing a thesis on the correlation between "evangelistic hair" and deviancy? :weird:

vifferman

29th June 2005, 12:51

*throws in my 2 cents*
*takes back my 2 cents... puts it in my piggy bank and walks away*
Miserable bum!
Mind you, what can you do with two cents? You could've at least made it FIVE cents, while that still has some use...

vifferman

29th June 2005, 12:54

Injecting a slight bit of levity, has anyone noticed Graham Capills "evangelistic hair????
That's very astute, Blackbird! I'm sure someone could easily base a thesis on that.
Come to think of it, the adulterous pastor in the church I used to go to had the "evangelistic hair" too.:eek5:

placidfemme

29th June 2005, 12:56

Can you actually buy anything with 5 cents? I think even the lollies at dairys are like 10 cents each... *bloody dairys*

hehe yeah I just though I'd put in my comments... about christianity... while trying not to step on any toes (I have a habit of doing that)... I was raised in a VERY christian family enviroment... but yeah...

Zed

29th June 2005, 13:07

Hmmm... [thinking....thinking......... trying to think... trying....]

Maybe that was a very silly 'spur of the moment' statement, like "very honest". You're either devout, or not.
Hot or not.
Laodicean or not.

Eejit or not....

Or summat.Oh drat, I was hoping for some juicy insight into your previous life! ;)

vifferman

29th June 2005, 13:09

Oh drat, I was hoping for some juicy insight into your previous life! ;)
Wouldn't be particularly juicy, I'm afraid. :no:
Although I've had a varied life (apart from the mind-wreckingly boringness of the last few years...)
"Juicy insight".... just looked that up in my phrase-o-saurus, and he said "Ba-a-a-a-a-ah!!" No wait - that was the sheeposaurus. :confused:
The Phrase-O-Saurus (his stature is growing, you'll note) said that "juicy insight" is tantamount to gossip. Ooer...:blank:

Thankyou, PHRASE-O-SAURUS.

Zed

29th June 2005, 13:11

everyone sins (I'm sure even Zed does)Let's not go there shall we Placid. :nono:

"For all have sinned"...but not in the way Capell has! :angry:

placidfemme

29th June 2005, 13:15

"For all have sinned"

Which is what I said...

Not very hard to step on people toes eh :whocares:

Zed

29th June 2005, 13:17

Not very hard to step on people toes eh :whocares:Especially when you use their name as the example! :weird:

ajturbo

29th June 2005, 13:19

BLAH BLAH JESUS , BLAH BLAH JUSTICE WHERES THE LITTLE GIRLS AT, TO ME THAT SOMES UP HIS LIFE AND I REALLY HATE TO SEE HOW HIS WIFE AND FAMILY SUPPORT HIM AND BELIEVE HE IS STILL A GOOD MAN, THIS FUCKER SHOULD BE TOTURED THEN KILLED AND IM NOT JOKING , IT MAKES ME SICK I WANT TO VOMIT WHEN I SEE HIM .
WHAT HES DONE IS JUST AS BAD AS MURDER, INFACT MAYBE WORSE THAN MURDER AS I CAN UNDERSTAND MURDER AND SOMETIMES THINK ITS OK BUT WHAT CAPEL DID IS NEVER OK AND NOT UNDERSTANDABLE , IF YOU DONT THINK ITS SERIOUS WHAT HE DID YOU HAVE TO MEET THE VICTIMS OF THIS TYPE OF CRIME LIKE I HAVE :mad: :mad: .

i have meet a LOT of women in that boat, i cannot understand how a grown man can do those sorts of things to a ( what is basicaly a baby girl) girl, and look at themselves in the mirror...

they tend to think the every man well hurt them and it is hard to have a loving relationship with them.....

Lou Girardin

29th June 2005, 13:19

BLAH BLAH JESUS , BLAH BLAH JUSTICE WHERES THE LITTLE GIRLS AT, TO ME THAT SOMES UP HIS LIFE AND I REALLY HATE TO SEE HOW HIS WIFE AND FAMILY SUPPORT HIM AND BELIEVE HE IS STILL A GOOD MAN, THIS FUCKER SHOULD BE TOTURED THEN KILLED AND IM NOT JOKING , IT MAKES ME SICK I WANT TO VOMIT WHEN I SEE HIM .
WHAT HES DONE IS JUST AS BAD AS MURDER, INFACT MAYBE WORSE THAN MURDER AS I CAN UNDERSTAND MURDER AND SOMETIMES THINK ITS OK BUT WHAT CAPEL DID IS NEVER OK AND NOT UNDERSTANDABLE , IF YOU DONT THINK ITS SERIOUS WHAT HE DID YOU HAVE TO MEET THE VICTIMS OF THIS TYPE OF CRIME LIKE I HAVE :mad: :mad: .

Emotional trauma can be eased. Killing can't be reversed. Thta's why it's the ultimate offence against humanity.

placidfemme

29th June 2005, 13:19

get over it dude, it wasn't meant like that and you know it... lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill...

Lou Girardin

29th June 2005, 13:21

Motu

29th June 2005, 13:21

Any sociology student fancy doing a thesis on the correlation between "evangelistic hair" and deviancy? :weird:

Sai Baba had ''hair'' too...very definatly a trend.Can perverts be bald....this is a need to know please.

vifferman

29th June 2005, 13:24

Sai Baba had ''hair'' too...very definatly a trend.Can perverts be bald....this is a need to know please.
Lesseeee....
I'm bald, and a pervert, so there you go. That's 100% so far :whistle:

ManDownUnder

29th June 2005, 13:30

But luckily, Zed (though a sinner) displays ALL the Christian virtues, and is very patient, charitable, forgiving, and not at all judgemental.

Rant Warning...

I have a rule I live by - and that is this...

When I am perfect, I'll be in a position to criticise. (Don't hold yer breath)

It's fine to point out shortcomings in others if there is an intent to help them improve. If the goal is to bring 'em down then it's not so good... nothing gets resolved and it's not exactly a productive use of time (and viffer - not targetting you dude - you're is just the quote I linked onto as part of the thread)

I've met Zed a couple of times - he's a good dude... and while I don't expect him to be perfect, I don't focus on his shortcomings (just as I'm not perfect... just don;t focus on my shortcomings...)

(Zed - again - not targetting anyone here).

Slanging matches are a great way to make enemies for no good reason. I thought the topic under consideration here is Graham Capill, not the beliefs, actions or standards (actual vs target) attained by anyone during the course of their personal lives.

He did bad, I think he needs help as do his victims, and I'd love to know why he did it. We can help Mr Capill, his victims, and hopefully prevent this situation happening again at the hands of anyone so inclined.

RANT OVER
...back to my email...
MDU

ManDownUnder

29th June 2005, 13:32

i have meet a LOT of women in that boat, i cannot understand how a grown man can do those sorts of things to a ( what is basicaly a baby girl) girl, and look at themselves in the mirror...

they tend to think the every man well hurt them and it is hard to have a loving relationship with them.....

Yup - and it's a big loss for all concerned...

placidfemme

29th June 2005, 13:50

vifferman

29th June 2005, 13:54

Zed being the big man that he is gave me bad feed back for my post... how's that for forgiving? And not Judging? He jumped to the defense over nothing and Vifferman was making a point not taking the piss...

you can't please everyone all the time
Dang!
I was expecting some negative rep myself. Obviously I was being too subtle, or obscure, or summat.... :confused:

MikeL

29th June 2005, 14:04

At the risk of reviving the dreaded Scottish thread, the focus of this thread needs to be brought back to the key point, which is the connexion between Mr Capill's public religious and moral position and pronouncements, and his private behaviour. There are no doubt some who would argue that the former is coincidental to and entirely disconnected from the latter. What arguments can be put forward to support this view?

Answers in the form of an academic essay, with full referencing and bibliography, please...

vifferman

29th June 2005, 14:07

At the risk of reviving the dreaded Scottish thread, the focus of this thread needs to be brought back to the key point, which is the connexion between Mr Capill's public religious and moral position and pronouncements, and his private behaviour. There are no doubt some who would argue that the former is coincidental to and entirely disconnected from the latter. What arguments can be put forward to support this view?
Not many, if any.

Answers in the form of an academic essay, with full referencing and bibliography, please...
Nup.

Paul in NZ

29th June 2005, 14:17

I, for one, couldn't give a fat rats arse about why he did it. He's a predator of the defenceless and vulnerable.

And one could argue that selling over chromed, over sized and under performing motorcycles to middle aged men as being exactly that Lou. (pt)

But I think I should have explained a little more (hey stop groaning) as I'm not excusing the man, I'm asking why we feel so reviled by this and suggesting we should be looking at the why to stop this happening again because I can’t help but wonder if a lot of our ‘revulsion’ to these crimes is due to the fact that we all fear that we have a piece of this animal inside our hearts just looking for the slightest chance to escape..

No, not just the child molester but the murderer, torturer, deviant or inhuman thief….

We regard ourselves as ‘civilized’ and yet we don’t need to look far to find examples of where loving fathers or husbands have committed the most heinous acts and gone home to the family and been a caring parent. Sometimes these acts are committed in the name of god, country, war, sport, booze or race and sometimes just because they thought they could get away with it.

Is what Mr Capill did any worse than the Lions fan that knowingly drove while jet lagged and took the life of an innocent 18 year old girl? ‘Oh but that was an accident’… Well Mr Capill might argue that he never intended this to happen.

Hence my question.... Why did this happen?

As a father of 3 daughters I abhor what this man has done and personally I doubt that such a deceitful person should ever be trusted again. I get so angry at the potential damage these men have done to my relationship with my own girls and to organizations like Scouting, Churches, and the teaching profession.

But are we any different?

We may not be kiddie fiddlers or rapists but I’m sorry, I do see a reduced level of what is acceptable behavior. The Shane Warnes, the shock jocks, the media (Big brother?) and the whole ‘marketing’ business. Self sacrifice and high intentions are not cool any more. It’s ‘show me the money’ and however you achieve that (as long as you don’t get caught) is aok until TV3 says otherwise and then you are torn down and ripped to shreds by the very media wolves that lifted you high in the first place.

If we all took a little more responsibility, put the needs of our families and our communities a little higher in the priority queue then maybe the world might be a better place and people like this would have less opportunity.

Just a thought? I'd be interested to hear yours?

Paul N

btw - don't get me wrong - if they are looking for volunteers for the firing squad my hand is UP!

Zed

29th June 2005, 14:23

Zed being the big man that he is gave me bad feed back for my post...:rofl: I had a feeling you'd make a public outcry at that. You shouldn't have had the cheek to tell me to "get over it"!

placidfemme

29th June 2005, 14:36

If we all took a little more responsibility, put the needs of our families and our communities a little higher in the priority queue then maybe the world might be a better place and people like this would have less opportunity.

I can understand where your coming from and trying to put a little logic into the topic...

It's really hard to argue a point thats this sensitive, and unique. There are child abusers, and Capil is being targeted as a "Christian" child abuser... which makes it harder.

I agree that we need to take responsibility and put our families and communities higher on our lists... But I don't think Capell can be excused, what caused him to do it? Because he was in a position where these poor kids parents thought that Capell was a good, decent, God fearing man (with 10 kids of his own), so they would have thought that leaving thier kids alone with this man would be a safe and responsible thing to do... and Capell took advantage of this... and obviously has a fetish for taboo sexual excounters... Some see it as kinky... others dirty... and others outrageous.

I don't think this is something we as a community can change... People who have tendancies such as child abuse/child porn and the such know its not a socially accepted fetish (as you all know BDSM is looked upon in a bad way and it's nothing compared to anything child related) so when someone feels those lets say... dirty... feelings it's not like they are going to go to anyone (a friend/pastor/spouse/family member) and say something like "I want to touch children". And when put into a situation where they know they have the oppertunity to do such things... it just happens... their passion/desire/lust (insert appropriate word here) is all they can feel as soon as they know "this is their chance".

We can educate our children, and let them know that certain things are not right and people shouldn't touch them in certain places... and if in the unfortunate event of such a thing happening that they should tell you right away...

*doesn't see a solution for this problem*

crashe

29th June 2005, 14:48

Graham Capill, stood up and publicly stated that only homosexual's were pedophiles (sp) and abused children. (WE now that this is NOT true)
Well now, what is he... yep he is now a convicted pedophile. While he was standing up and saying all of this, he was himself abusing children.

He has apologised to his wife for what he has done....
Excuse me... but what about his 3 victims.
There may well be others that he has abused or raped.

It turns out that his wife may have known about this....from one of the victims at a wedding that she was at, after capill rushed into the room when she was getting dressed. (an article on the Otago paper)

Now that wedding was long before the last victim (11 year old) so Capill's wife is also guilty as she did nothing about it.

How can any woman stand by her man after what he has done.
I hope the police are going to check out his 10 children to make sure now of them were abused. He produced 10 children.

Sure he may be in a secure wing at the moment... and most likely on 'suicide watch' but given time the guards will turn a blind eye and leave a door open. The boys inside will deal to him and make him their 'bitch'. He will then be on the receiveing end... and not the giver. He deserves what ever the boys inside deals to him.

He will whimper all the time he is inside...

Rot in hell Graham Capill.

Lou Girardin

29th June 2005, 14:53

And one could argue that selling over chromed, over sized and under performing motorcycles to middle aged men as being exactly that Lou. (pt)

But I think I should have explained a little more (hey stop groaning) as I'm not excusing the man, I'm asking why we feel so reviled by this and suggesting we should be looking at the why to stop this happening again because I can’t help but wonder if a lot of our ‘revulsion’ to these crimes is due to the fact that we all fear that we have a piece of this animal inside our hearts just looking for the slightest chance to escape..

No, not just the child molester but the murderer, torturer, deviant or inhuman thief….

We regard ourselves as ‘civilized’ and yet we don’t need to look far to find examples of where loving fathers or husbands have committed the most heinous acts and gone home to the family and been a caring parent. Sometimes these acts are committed in the name of god, country, war, sport, booze or race and sometimes just because they thought they could get away with it.

Is what Mr Capill did any worse than the Lions fan that knowingly drove while jet lagged and took the life of an innocent 18 year old girl? ‘Oh but that was an accident’… Well Mr Capill might argue that he never intended this to happen.

Hence my question.... Why did this happen?

As a father of 3 daughters I abhor what this man has done and personally I doubt that such a deceitful person should ever be trusted again. I get so angry at the potential damage these men have done to my relationship with my own girls and to organizations like Scouting, Churches, and the teaching profession.

But are we any different?

We may not be kiddie fiddlers or rapists but I’m sorry, I do see a reduced level of what is acceptable behavior. The Shane Warnes, the shock jocks, the media (Big brother?) and the whole ‘marketing’ business. Self sacrifice and high intentions are not cool any more. It’s ‘show me the money’ and however you achieve that (as long as you don’t get caught) is aok until TV3 says otherwise and then you are torn down and ripped to shreds by the very media wolves that lifted you high in the first place.

If we all took a little more responsibility, put the needs of our families and our communities a little higher in the priority queue then maybe the world might be a better place and people like this would have less opportunity.

Just a thought? I'd be interested to hear yours?

Paul N

btw - don't get me wrong - if they are looking for volunteers for the firing squad my hand is UP!

I'm just glad I don't sell them then. Harley salesmen as predators? I would have thought they performed a public service.
I don't know about the argument, "there but for the grace of God go I".
It might apply to some sins, but it's a huge stretch to use it in this case.
He abused a position of trust to get access to his victims, I fail to see how the most loving parents could have protected these kids.
He was a religeous leader, people TRUSTED him.
Which makes his crimes all the more reprehensible.
And being the snivelling coward that he is, his particular hell is still to come.

ManDownUnder

29th June 2005, 14:54

We can educate our children, and let them know that certain things are not right and people shouldn't touch them in certain places... and if in the unfortunate event of such a thing happening that they should tell you right away...

*doesn't see a solution for this problem*

Yeah it's a tough one and it's interesting how it highlights the fact we live in a society which actually is just a "social construct". Society isn't "something" it's a set of rules that spells out how we can all live together - giving up some freedoms (such as the freedom to shoot people that annoy us, take what we want etc) and giving us a corresponding - and greater - set of valuable protections from being the victims of those crimes.

My thought is that it should be ok to talk to people. I know men have a really hard time of it here in NZ. It's just not done.

You have a problem? In NZ you're expected to stoically tough it out- work it out for yourself and hope for the best. A cry for help isn't just an indication you can't handle what's going on, in male NZ it's a sign of weakness.

As an example, we all know a damned good cry is needed sometimes. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does - it really does.

If you need help - ask for it dammit.

I'm not saying this would have changed anything in this specific (Caphill) situation, but who knows what has influenced him to do this?
1) He's got 10 kids
2) He's used to being in a position of power
3) He likes being in the limelight
4) He abused his position of power with a little girl

All of those things indicate to me he DIDN'T have a lot of control of him younger life. Something happened... maybe he was one of many kids and felt insignificant, maybe his parents divorced and he felt unable to control it, maybe a lot of things.

At THAT time he needed help - and in not getting it he's compensating (see items 1 - 3 above) and item 4 could be a consequence of him deciding he IS that power he always wanted, and combined with a number of urges he's been suppressing for years as a man of the cloth and publicly espousing the values he's consiously expected to have... something happened - a situation presented itself and he walked over that line he can never go back over.

Im not belittling his actions. He is 100% responsible for them.

I'm just saying (and guessing) there could be a lot going on behind the scenes that contribute to him doing what he did... and it could have been mitigated if he's had help on hand when it was needed, combined with a culture of making it ok to ask for help...

MDU

Mr Skid

29th June 2005, 14:59

Graham Capill, stood up and publicly stated that only homosexual's were pedophiles (sp) and abused children. (WE now that this is NOT true)
Well now, what is he...
..a homosexual?

crashe

29th June 2005, 15:03

..a homosexual?

No way....

No gayman would even fancy him.

He is like the other straight men who are pedophiles.
SCUM of this earth.

Lou Girardin

29th June 2005, 15:06

No way....

No gayman would even fancy him.

He is like the other straight men who are pedophiles.
SCUM of this earth.

I'm sure gays have bad taste just like everyone else. After all, someone is shagging Chris Carter.

crashe

29th June 2005, 15:07

I'm sure gays have bad taste just like everyone else. After all, someone is shagging Chris Carter.

Yep Peter is.... and they have been together for 30 years...

Mr Skid

29th June 2005, 15:08

No gayman would even fancy him.
http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/29capill.JPG

Hmm.. yeah good point.

Paul in NZ

29th June 2005, 15:33

I can understand where your coming from and trying to put a little logic into the topic...

Thank you!

I agree that we need to take responsibility and put our families and communities higher on our lists... But I don't think Capell can be excused, what caused him to do it? Because he was in a position where these poor kids parents thought that Capell was a good, decent, God fearing man (with 10 kids of his own), so they would have thought that leaving thier kids alone with this man would be a safe and responsible thing to do... and Capell took advantage of this... and obviously has a fetish for taboo sexual excounters... Some see it as kinky... others dirty... and others outrageous.

Nope - I'm not excusing him at all.

What I want to know is did he put himself into this position because he would have access to children or was he in fact well motivated initially and something bad leaked out of him?

The bigger question is our fundemental desire to elevate these people into positions of leadership. The fundementals of most religions are quite simple and plainly stated. Chaletans come along with interpretations of these fundementals and set themselves up as leaders. Hopefully the 'why' question would encourage people to look into their own hearts to see if this kind of leadership is actually required. Especially if people took a little more active roles in some organisations instead of blindly surrendering control to prople they really know very little about.

I don't think this is something we as a community can change... People who have tendancies such as child abuse/child porn and the such know its not a socially accepted fetish (as you all know BDSM is looked upon in a bad way and it's nothing compared to anything child related) so when someone feels those lets say... dirty... feelings it's not like they are going to go to anyone (a friend/pastor/spouse/family member) and say something like "I want to touch children". And when put into a situation where they know they have the oppertunity to do such things... it just happens... their passion/desire/lust (insert appropriate word here) is all they can feel as soon as they know "this is their chance".

And here we come to the crux of the matter! thanks for defining it a little better for me. Because of our 'shock horror' reactions we are most unlikely to admit to such a thing. Perhaps if there was a little more logic involved before the event and an understanding of the why such things could be averted. For instance, I would admire someone that sought treatment for something they know is just plain wrong before they acted on such an impulse.

I have trouble lumping BDSM and associated thingies into this. Most of these activities are usually pretty harmless playing with fetish objects inside a mutually beneficial relationship. True sadists and / or maosichists (sp) are very rare (or so I'm led to believe). Yet strangely a hell of a lot of people get turned on by the imagry used (if the interwebby thing is anything to go by) The true harm is lumping non mainstream behaviours between consenting adults into the same bucket as the real horrors of rape and child molesting. The critical difference (to me) is an unwilling or unknowing victim.

I can't help but feel it's because we have such strong anti reactions to these things (rape - child sex etc) that an atmosphere is created where it is not discussed and that actually allows enough room for these people to operate in!

No one dares bring it up!

Paul N

Lou Girardin

29th June 2005, 15:53

ManDownUnder

29th June 2005, 16:00

This behaviour doesn't need understanding because understanding implies that it can be fixed. On the contrary, you'll never stop it.

'fraid we'll need to agree to disagree on that one.

Awareness leads to understanding leads to intervention leads to stopping the cycle.

What do you think we should do for the girls that were molested? Give them help and support right now, or wait a while, keep an eye on them and lock 'em up if they do something similar/wrong?

I'd expect that as the victims of this man, they're now more likely to commit similar offences in the future (and I'd really like to see any stats supporting or disproving that view).

My argument is that the girls should have support - just as My Caphill should have when he needed it. We get to stop the cycle of abuse then.

MDU

enigma51

29th June 2005, 16:01

Paul in NZ

29th June 2005, 16:13

I can't help wondering if all the "how could this happen" and the " he must be sick" reactions are not just encouragement for these people.
It's a "I can't help myself, it's not my fault, I'm a victim too mentality".
It was shown clearly with Martin Sheenes "sex addiction". It's not an addiction, it's lack of self-control.
This behaviour doesn't need understanding because understanding implies that it can be fixed. On the contrary, you'll never stop it.

I honestly don't know Lou.

Revulsion has not proved to stop this behaviour up until now. It has often driven these people to amazing lengths to reach their objectives. Imagine if he started down the whole leader of religion thing just so he would get his opportunity? My god thats one powerful long time compulsion and if this is the case it is very (very) scary.

Perhaps the behaviour does need understanding because these people thrive in an atmosphere of fear and ignorance. If the kids knew it was wrong and the parents more alert this might have stopped before it started!

I dunno...

Lou Girardin

29th June 2005, 17:00

My point about understanding being irrelevant is based on the fact that this is a primal drive for people like Capill. It can be the prime motivator in their lives.
And yes, people do whatever it takes to get access to their victims. Scoutmasters? Priests? Teachers? Pop Stars?
I don't think that reaslistically there is much that can be done. Even the 'stranger danger' campaign didn't work because most abusers aren't strangers.

ajturbo

29th June 2005, 17:10

[QUOTEAnd yes, people do whatever it takes to get access to their victims. Scoutmasters? Priests? Teachers? Pop Stars?
I.[/QUOTE]

as usall..... everyone forgets about the painters out there... and sales men:motu: :whistle:

this is just an atempt to some how lighten the subject.. it is probaly in bad taste .. but you have to know me. i try (sometimes too hard ) to see the funny side of every situation... if i didn't i probly be dead....:whocares:

WINJA

29th June 2005, 19:16

Emotional trauma can be eased. Killing can't be reversed. Thta's why it's the ultimate offence against humanity.
1 KILLING ANOTHER HUMAN CAN SOMETIMES BE JUSTIFIED 2 TOUCHING LITTLE GIRLS CAN NEVER BE JUSTIFIED AND IF SOMEONE THINKS IT CAN BE REFER BACK TO 1.
IN SOME CASES THE EMOTIONAL TRAUMA CANT BE EASED , SOME GIRLS COMMIT SUICDE I DONT CALL THAT EASED.
BEST THING IS SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE AND MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF CAPEL.

750Y

29th June 2005, 19:18

That guy who made the PATHETIC attempt at slapping him outside the courthouse got 2 years.

WINJA

29th June 2005, 19:22

That guy who made the PATHETIC attempt at slapping him outside the courthouse got 2 years.
THAT SLAP BROKE CAPELS JAW , GOOD JOB TOO, I HEARD THE GUY WHO PUNCHED HIM IS A ROGUE BUT I STILL WANT TO SEND HIM A CARTON OF SMOKES

Timber020

29th June 2005, 19:33

DingDong

29th June 2005, 19:33

THAT SLAP BROKE CAPELS JAW , GOOD JOB TOO, I HEARD THE GUY WHO PUNCHED HIM IS A ROGUE BUT I STILL WANT TO SEND HIM A CARTON OF SMOKES
That was a funny clip... I vote for castration, public stoning and crusifiction... thats what he'd want.

(sorry about the spelling)

Timber020

29th June 2005, 19:34

wasnt a bad slap, when I first saw it I told my partner that they guy who did it had done some boxing. Sure enough!

spudchucka

29th June 2005, 20:32

What arguments can be put forward to support this view?

Answers in the form of an academic essay, with full referencing and bibliography, please...
INTRODUCTION:
He's a f*#ken a-hole!

MAIN ESSAY BODY:
He's a f*#ken a-hole!

CONCLUSION:
He's a f*#ken a-hole!

University of common sense says I don't need any references to back that up.

spudchucka

29th June 2005, 20:35

THAT SLAP BROKE CAPELS JAW , GOOD JOB TOO, I HEARD THE GUY WHO PUNCHED HIM IS A ROGUE BUT I STILL WANT TO SEND HIM A CARTON OF SMOKES
As I recall the guy who whacked Capill got jail time for the assault. Hopefully they get to be cell buddies, or at the very least Capill gets to drop the soap a few times for the lads.

WINJA

29th June 2005, 21:09

As I recall the guy who whacked Capill got jail time for the assault. Hopefully they get to be cell buddies, or at the very least Capill gets to drop the soap a few times for the lads.
BUT YOU KNOW SOME OF CAPELS MATES WILL BUY HIM SOAP ON A ROPE , I CANT BELIEVE HE STILL HAS FRIENDS

SixPackBack

29th June 2005, 21:26

Zed

29th June 2005, 22:27

Part of the problem lies within christian beliefs themselves.

Sex is natural, christianity says that unless its with someone your married to, its wrong. If your a priest, often you cant have sex. Its says no sex, none.
It turns the natural into the perverse, so the truely perverse (such as sexually abusing a 5 year old which may be easily accessible) is not, in the minds of the righteous (like capel) any worse than the natural.

Think about it.Christian beliefs do state that sex is natural but that God originally made one woman for the man Adam and for them to remain in a marriage union for their whole lifetime together on earth. This was the model God intended mankind to follow, and many good men and women have been able to throughout history. I'm sure there will be some KBer's that will have this testimony.

The part about being a priest and not having sex is something the religious cults have concocted and practise, they are the ones who are turning the natural into perverse! The Christian Handbook is very clear that a priest/minister can have one wife with whom a sexual relationship should be practised to fulfil that natural purpose & desire.

Abusing of a 5 year old, let alone any human being, is actually unnatural and perverse and utterly condemned by God in the Christian Bible.

So part of the problem doesn't lie with Christian beliefs at all, more a misunderstanding and perversion of those beliefs!

SixPackBack

29th June 2005, 22:35

Christian beliefs do state that sex is natural but that God originally made one woman for the man Adam and for them to remain in a marriage union for their whole lifetime together on earth. This was the model God intended mankind to follow, and many good men and women have been able to throughout history. I'm sure there will be some KBer's that will have this testimony.

The part about being a priest and not having sex is something the religious cults have concocted and practise, they are the ones who are turning the natural into perverse! The Christian Handbook is very clear that a priest/minister can have one wife with whom a sexual relationship should be practised to fulfil that natural purpose & desire.

Abusing of a 5 year old, let alone any human being, is actually unnatural and perverse and utterly condemned by God in the Christian Bible.

So part of the problem doesn't lie with Christian beliefs at all, more a misunderstanding and perversion of those beliefs!
That sounds reasonable zed......not a christian but married for two life sentences! ......i only ever have one bike, feels unnatural to cheat!

Jackrat

29th June 2005, 22:48

I suspect Mr Capill will be receiving some 'extra attention' during his stay in the big house.

Oh yeah.he'll be eating some interesting food for sure.
Some of them kitchen guys are sick. :rofl:

scumdog

29th June 2005, 22:49

THAT SLAP BROKE CAPELS JAW , GOOD JOB TOO, I HEARD THE GUY WHO PUNCHED HIM IS A ROGUE BUT I STILL WANT TO SEND HIM A CARTON OF SMOKES

Not knocking you WINJA and not sticking up for Capell but in my sarcastic way I think (about the punch) "boy, that reaaly showed him, I bet he never touches another little girl - yeah right!!" - I mean WHAT did that punch achieve???

And how do we KNOW that the loser that punched Capell was any better?
I know he was in his eyes but that's how a lot of crims think - "what he did was worse than what I did".

WINJA

29th June 2005, 22:56

Not knocking you WINJA and not sticking up for Capell but in my sarcastic way I think (about the punch) "boy, that reaaly showed him, I bet he never touches another little girl - yeah right!!" - I mean WHAT did that punch achieve???

And how do we KNOW that the loser that punched Capell was any better?
I know he was in his eyes but that's how a lot of crims think - "what he did was worse than what I did".
I DID SAY THE PUNCHER WAS A ROGUE, AND IT MADE SOME OF US FEEL BETTER
EVEN IF IT WASNT HELPFULL IT DIDNT HURT THE SITUATION EITHER.

Jackrat

29th June 2005, 22:59

He is a complete embarrassment to the cause of Christ and Christianity, and I and my local church (we have been discussing him for some weeks now) are totally ashamed of him! His deceit and perverted actions bring reproach upon the name of Jesus Christ and I would not want to be in his shoes when he faces his Maker.

Unfortunately this type of gross sin is a major hindrance to the main purpose of the Christian Church, which is bringing people to Jesus Christ and not turning them away! This loser is not a representative of the truth but rather a deceiver.

If any of you good people use this man's poor example to justify your rejection of Christianity, you are making a big mistake. The only person who is fit to exemplify is Jesus Christ himself, and there's no fault in Him!

Personaly I don't see him as being in anyway representitive of christians or churches in general.He and others like him are a perversion of nature.
As you know I don't belive in religion, but it would take a pretty shallow person to judge christians or the church based on this guy.

MikeL

29th June 2005, 23:22

Abusing of a 5 year old, let alone any human being, is actually unnatural and perverse and utterly condemned by God in the Christian Bible.

Leaving aside the definition of what is "natural" or "perverse" (we've already covered that elsewhere, I think!), I would be interested to know where in the Bible there is a specific reference to under-age sex.

Clearly abuse of a 5 year old or any pre-pubescent girl is morally wrong and absolutely abhorrent, regardless of what the Bible may or may not state. I'm not so sure you can find (literal) Biblical support for condemnation of sexual relationships with girls aged 12, 13, 14... ages well below what we now consider the age of consent (and therefore condemned as abuse); in the ancient world marriage at 12 or 13 was common... betrothals at 6 or 7 (or even earlier) were not unknown, with marriage and consummation occurring as soon as the girl entered puberty... Such arrangements would not be acceptable nowadays, but I am not aware of any scriptural condemnation of them...

Zed

30th June 2005, 04:08

I would be interested to know where in the Bible there is a specific reference to under-age sex. Remembering that in the Bible sex outside of marriage is called fornication, If I had to give specific references against under-age sex I would first point to Genesis 2:24 where a person is told to "leave his father and his mother" and join to his/her spouse, then I would refer to 1 Corinthians 7:36 where a qualification for marriage is the "passing of the flower" (puberty) of his/her age.

Specific references to the letter are not needed when you have the spirit of the book btw! (2 Corinthians 3:6)

spudchucka

30th June 2005, 08:35

BUT YOU KNOW SOME OF CAPELS MATES WILL BUY HIM SOAP ON A ROPE , I CANT BELIEVE HE STILL HAS FRIENDS
Rope, prison cell, child abuser.......... could still have a happy ending.

Paul in NZ

30th June 2005, 09:02

Leaving aside the definition of what is "natural" or "perverse" (we've already covered that elsewhere, I think!), I would be interested to know where in the Bible there is a specific reference to under-age sex.

Clearly abuse of a 5 year old or any pre-pubescent girl is morally wrong and absolutely abhorrent, regardless of what the Bible may or may not state. I'm not so sure you can find (literal) Biblical support for condemnation of sexual relationships with girls aged 12, 13, 14... ages well below what we now consider the age of consent (and therefore condemned as abuse); in the ancient world marriage at 12 or 13 was common... betrothals at 6 or 7 (or even earlier) were not unknown, with marriage and consummation occurring as soon as the girl entered puberty... Such arrangements would not be acceptable nowadays, but I am not aware of any scriptural condemnation of them...

In general, I doubt it is useful to draw comparisons to what happened in the 'good old days' (and indeed still happens now in some parts of the world) because the world was a less certain and much more lawless place in those days. These arrangements were often made to establish ties between families (or countries) for the greater good of all.

What we are talking about are people that victimise children sexually.

Why these men (usually men) do this is not a subject I know a lot about or am even comfortable researching. What I do know is the whole 'burn them all' reaction does not really work.

My own feeling is that this is one area that our social services have been rather ineffective about and that there is a huge amount of this still going on out there. Part of the problem may be that mens roles/responsibilities have changed over the years which leaves a lot of people confused and 'lost'.

Ironically, I think it is the (usually) religious right wing that suppresses any discussion on alternate sexuality etc and thus it is just so delicious when someone from that end of the spectrum gets stuck in his own tar pit!

The danger of adopting violent response to this is pushing it deeper underground. When it gets to the stage where you may as well murdur the victims because the penalties are the same... Not good really!

No way am I defending what this man has done. Far from it.

I am suggesting that those of us baying for blood ought to remember that this was Mr Capills soap box before he got caught out....

Lou Girardin

30th June 2005, 09:24

1 KILLING ANOTHER HUMAN CAN SOMETIMES BE JUSTIFIED 2 TOUCHING LITTLE GIRLS CAN NEVER BE JUSTIFIED AND IF SOMEONE THINKS IT CAN BE REFER BACK TO 1.
IN SOME CASES THE EMOTIONAL TRAUMA CANT BE EASED , SOME GIRLS COMMIT SUICDE I DONT CALL THAT EASED.
BEST THING IS SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE AND MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF CAPEL.
1/ You need to differentiate between legal killing and what you originally said, "murder".
2/ "Some cases" yes true. But, EVERYONE who is killed is dead.

Lou Girardin

30th June 2005, 09:29

Remembering that in the Bible sex outside of marriage is called fornication, If I had to give specific references against under-age sex I would first point to Genesis 2:24 where a person is told to "leave his father and his mother" and join to his/her spouse, then I would refer to 1 Corinthians 7:36 where a qualification for marriage is the "passing of the flower" (puberty) of his/her age.

Specific references to the letter are not needed when you have the spirit of the book btw! (2 Corinthians 3:6)

None of this states an age of consent.

WINJA

30th June 2005, 09:29

1/ You need to differentiate between legal killing and what you originally said, "murder".
2/ "Some cases" yes true. But, EVERYONE who is killed is dead.
IF SOME ONE KILLED A DUDE AFTER THAT DUDE JUST MOLESTED HIS CHILD AND IM ON THAT JURY , I WOULD HAVE TO SAY NOT GUILTY , LEGAL OR ILEGAL ITS STILL JUSTIFIED TO KILL A CHILD MOLESTOR

WINJA

30th June 2005, 09:30

DO SOME WORK LOU

Zed

30th June 2005, 10:17

None of this states an age of consent.You missed it Lou. In the Bible it's whatever age after puberty that a man or woman leaves their parents and joins to their spouse in marriage. Therefore the age of consent is not fixed, but certainly 5 year old children do not qualify! :no:

ManDownUnder

30th June 2005, 10:33

Personaly I don't see him as being in anyway representitive of christians or churches in general.He and others like him are a perversion of nature.
As you know I don't belive in religion, but it would take a pretty shallow person to judge christians or the church based on this guy.

What that man said - exactly. I think anyone would be a fool to form an opinion of millions of people based on the actions of one or two.

Do we form bad opinions of all teachers, or scout leaders or others if they do it? No. But religious affiliation gets targetted because it is the aspect of someone's life/character that adds "hypocracy" to the equation.

As if molesting children isn't bad enough...!

MDU

idb

30th June 2005, 14:15

The easy thing is to hurl abuse and feel all smug that one of the bible thumpers is exposed as having feet of clay etc etc.
it’s just too easy to gloat at someone that’s worse than we are while ignoring our own faults and vices.

Maybe we should not be so smug, maybe we should strive to be better people because of this sort of thing occurring in society. Lifting our own game would be an apt response, I certainly know I’m far from perfect and at times (usually unintentionally) I come across as a real bastard. I think I better work on that!

Cheers
Sorry Paul, I can't agree in this case.
I could compete for the New Zealand Fence-Sitting Team normally but in this case I feel justified in casting stones.
The difference between this man and other paedophiles is that he set himself up as a moral leader and was a most public judge of others.
Not only has he hurt his victims, family and friends (just as any paedophile does) but he has caused untold damage to the Christian community and all those who looked up to him and trusted him.
Despite what we may think about Christianity and its adherents, it is full of good, well-meaning people who believe in living well and men like Graeme Capell betray these folk in the worst way.
I know it has been said before but it is the monumental hyprocrisy that sets this man and his crime apart.

idb

30th June 2005, 14:25

This loser is not a representative of the truth but rather a deceiver.

The trouble is Zed, when they are in the pulpit, how can you tell which they are?
How can you tell which one is the right one to listen to/follow?
What if I decided to better myself and become a Christian, what if I devoted my life to a church but years later discovered that I had chosen the wrong crew to kick around with.
That is some of the damage this man has caused.

I'm getting myself worked up now.....calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean........

Lou Girardin

30th June 2005, 14:26

You missed it Lou. In the Bible it's whatever age after puberty that a man or woman leaves their parents and joins to their spouse in marriage. Therefore the age of consent is not fixed, but certainly 5 year old children do not qualify! :no:

So an 11 year old who's started menstruating is fair game?
Without starting an avalanche of biblical quotes, this is nonsense.
Biblical justification for sex with children tends not to work these days. But give the Yanks time and they'll find a way.

Paul in NZ

30th June 2005, 14:27

Sorry Paul, I can't agree in this case.
I could compete for the New Zealand Fence-Sitting Team normally but in this case I feel justified in casting stones.
The difference between this man and other paedophiles is that he set himself up as a moral leader and was a most public judge of others.
Not only has he hurt his victims, family and friends (just as any paedophile does) but he has caused untold damage to the Christian community and all those who looked up to him and trusted him.
Despite what we may think about Christianity and its adherents, it is full of good, well-meaning people who believe in living well and men like Graeme Capell betray these folk in the worst way.
I know it has been said before but it is the monumental hyprocrisy that sets this man and his crime apart.

I think his behaviour is pretty atypical and not all that different. You can say the same thing about the priests, scout leaders, boys brigade dudes etc etc that have been caught out as well.

When it comes down to it. Are you not now doing exactly what he did?

If I assume that you are a christian then yes I can understand how this may hurt you but it's bigger than this, these people have hurt every father that took his daughter to kindy, every guy that wants to coach his kids sports team etc etc. I still remember the looks and comments I got when I coached our daughters F1 netball team... Despite no one else stepping up to do it!

It's got fuck all to do with his religion, thats just an amusing side issue.

Rather than burning the guy I'd like to know more about this. Why? How on earth did he think he was going to get away with it? Was it worth it? How did he develop this 'taste' etc etc in the hope we can stop it again. Burning the guy is a pretty attractive option but it just drives the others deeper.

I dunno. This is geting tired

idb

30th June 2005, 14:41

I think his behaviour is pretty atypical and not all that different. You can say the same thing about the priests, scout leaders, boys brigade dudes etc etc that have been caught out as well.

When it comes down to it. Are you not now doing exactly what he did?

If I assume that you are a christian then yes I can understand how this may hurt you but it's bigger than this, these people have hurt every father that took his daughter to kindy, every guy that wants to coach his kids sports team etc etc. I still remember the looks and comments I got when I coached our daughters F1 netball team... Despite no one else stepping up to do it!

It's got fuck all to do with his religion, thats just an amusing side issue.

Rather than burning the guy I'd like to know more about this. Why? How on earth did he think he was going to get away with it? Was it worth it? How did he develop this 'taste' etc etc in the hope we can stop it again. Burning the guy is a pretty attractive option but it just drives the others deeper.

I dunno. This is geting tired
No, I'm not Christian and I agree the religion issue is something of a red herring, except that is another group that he has damaged as well as those you mentioned above.

MSTRS

30th June 2005, 14:42

This is geting tired
Agreed - all anyone seems to do is talk about what to do. These paedophiles are not able to be 'rehabilitated' - they are full of remorse (yea right) when caught, but they bide their time until their freedom to practice their little party tricks is once again available to them. I've heard the term 'chemical castration' bandied about & understand it to mean application of an injection periodically. That assumes the co-operation of caught offender. Think they are likely to go willingly???
Hang their nads in a pot of hydrochloric acid - now that kind of 'chemical castration' I can accept.

Zed

30th June 2005, 15:16

So an 11 year old who's started menstruating is fair game?
Without starting an avalanche of biblical quotes, this is nonsense.
Biblical justification for sex with children tends not to work these days. But give the Yanks time and they'll find a way.Don't act like a right pillock Lou, in no way was I justifying sex with children and you know it! :weird:

Zed

30th June 2005, 15:25

The trouble is Zed, when they are in the pulpit, how can you tell which they are?
How can you tell which one is the right one to listen to/follow?
What if I decided to better myself and become a Christian, what if I devoted my life to a church but years later discovered that I had chosen the wrong crew to kick around with.Idb, my comment about him being a deceiver and not representing truth is based on the events that have come to light. Being able to spot a deceiver like Capell before 'his sins find him out' is another discussion altogether. :sly:

Lou Girardin

30th June 2005, 15:28

Don't act like a right pillock Lou, in no way was I justifying sex with children and you know it! :weird:

I'm sorry but you referred to underage sex with biblical references, I pointed out that those references are meaningless and, in todays world, usually illegal.
So we are no clearer as to what you consider underage.
What do you actually THINK is underage?
Step away from that bible.

Lou Girardin

30th June 2005, 15:41

Don't act like a right pillock Lou, in no way was I justifying sex with children and you know it! :weird:

I'm sorry but you referred to underage sex with biblical references, I pointed out that those references are meaningless and, in todays world, usually illegal.
So we are no clearer as to what you consider underage.

What do you actually THINK is underage?
Step away from that bible.

Zed

30th June 2005, 15:43

What do you actually THINK is underage?
Step away from that bible.No younger than sixteen Lou. :nono:

MikeL

30th June 2005, 16:43

No younger than sixteen Lou. :nono:

But if we agree now that 15 is under-age, how do we account for varying ages of consent or marriage historically, other than by cultural relativism?
If God did not disapprove of a 13 year-old Israelite girl from marrying, 2,500 years ago, why would he disapprove now?

Lou Girardin

30th June 2005, 16:46

On another tack, if parents want to keep their kids safe, why do they dress their pre-pubescent daughters like hookers?

Zed

30th June 2005, 17:15

But if we agree now that 15 is under-age, how do we account for varying ages of consent or marriage historically, other than by cultural relativism?
If God did not disapprove of a 13 year-old Israelite girl from marrying, 2,500 years ago, why would he disapprove now?Who said He disapproves now Mike? Btw I am predominately discussing marriage here and not simply consent.

Hey Mike, can you think of at least 4 reasons why God in the Bible established the marriage union in the first place? :unsure:

MikeL

30th June 2005, 17:23

4??
Sometimes I'm hard-pressed to think of one good reason...

Perhaps because He needed to remind us that life is not meant to be easy...

:whistle:

Ixion

30th June 2005, 17:24

Who said He disapproves now Mike? Btw I am predominately discussing marriage here and not simply consent.

Hey Mike, can you think of at least 4 reasons why God in the Bible established the marriage union in the first place? :unsure:

Three there be

holy Matrimony; which is an honourable estate, instituted of God in the time of man's innocency, signifying unto us the mystical union that is betwixt Christ and his Church; which holy estate Christ adorned and beautified with his presence, and first miracle that he wrought, in Cana of Galilee; and is commended of Saint Paul to be honourable among all men: and therefore is not by any to be enterprised, nor taken in hand, unadvisedly, lightly, or wantonly, to satisfy men's carnal lusts and appetites, like brute beasts that have no understanding; but reverently, discreetly, advisedly, soberly, and in the fear of God; duly considering the causes for which Matrimony was ordained.
First, It was ordained for the procreation of children, to be brought up in the fear and nurture of the Lord, and to the praise of his holy Name.
Secondly, It was ordained for a remedy against sin, and to avoid fornication; that such persons as have not the gift of continency might marry, and keep themselves undefiled members of Christ's body.
Thirdly, It was ordained for the mutual society, help, and comfort, that the one ought to have of the other, both in prosperity and adversity.

NhuanH

30th June 2005, 17:34

No way....

No gayman would even fancy him.

http://media.apn.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/29capill.JPG

Hmm.. yeah good point.
hmmm, dunno. Those Aviators are pretty fly for a white guy...

Indy??

Zed

30th June 2005, 17:48

Three there beLol, very good Ixion.

Zed

30th June 2005, 17:50

hmmm, dunno. Those Aviators are pretty fly for a white guy...

Indy??You're a sick puppy mr 636 rider!

R u riding this weekend? :Punk:

toads

30th June 2005, 21:48

Noone is in any doubt that Capill is a huge hypocrite, and has done a lot of damage, but what of Mrs Capill?, I think she has made a descision to stand by her husband based on several reasons, 1: she obviously loves the man she thought he was.
2: it's hard to make sense of how she has spent her life, ie a christian mother and wife, and having raised 10 children.
3: she's undoubtedly in a huge state of shock and her faith will be in question.
I disagree with comments that she is as guilty as her husband, I think in time she will come to terms with the horrific nature of this man's actions and will be able to cast him out of her life, but habits of a lifetime take some adjusting to.
As for Mr Capill getting whatever is coming to him when he's doing time for his crimes, well it's likely, and he's probably going to take the soft option ( suicide), but this sort of thing will continue to happen, it's just more repulsive coming from a man in his position. I also don't believe it has any effect on true christianity, as that is an issue between individuals and God, not anything to do with organisations.

Pixie

1st July 2005, 11:19

In a few years, if he survives prison, we may see him doing the "I am only a poor, lowly, sinner but God forgave me and I have turned my life around" bit.

Jamezo

1st July 2005, 17:02

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childlove_movement

go humanity! let's hear it for us!!!!!11

now playing: Dream Theater - The Glass Prison

Lou Girardin

1st July 2005, 17:09

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childlove_movement

go humanity! let's hear it for us!!!!!11

now playing: Dream Theater - The Glass Prison

Vermin! Anyone got a couple of tonnes of Warferin?

Skyryder

1st July 2005, 18:12

In a few years, if he survives prison, we may see him doing the "I am only a poor, lowly, sinner but God forgave me and I have turned my life around" bit.

The religious right are full of these guys who promote themselves as sinners and then claim Jesus has turned their life around. What realy pisses me off is when they blame the devil for their actions (sin) Oh it's not my fault but Satin's. I'd put money on that Capill trys this trick in the future.

Tis sad about the wife but then the woman of these so called christians are 'second class' christians and are so dependent on the men that they have nowhere else to go. Their whole lives revolve around the husband and his needs.

Skyryder

Paul in NZ

1st July 2005, 18:32

Tis sad about the wife but then the woman of these so called christians are 'second class' christians and are so dependent on the men that they have nowhere else to go. Their whole lives revolve around the husband and his needs.

Skyryder

Really?? VERY Hinterestin...... Erm, anyone else thinking what I"M thinking... Bit of a cult eh guys....

Nah!

Vicki would never let me!

Lou Girardin

14th July 2005, 16:07

So he got 9 years.
He showed his true colours at sentencing though. He claimed one of his victims consented!
Typical paedophile behaviour to claim the kids lead them on.

spudchucka

14th July 2005, 16:12

Hopefully he gets chucked into general population and gets to play mummies and daddies with a few of the big smelly butt shaggers in there. :buggerd:

Lou Girardin

14th July 2005, 16:30

Hopefully he gets chucked into general population and gets to play mummies and daddies with a few of the big smelly butt shaggers in there. :buggerd:

Oh Yes! They'll just love those baby-face looks and evangelist hair style.
A kiddie fiddler, Police prosecutor and born-again.
They'll be queuing up to widen his circle. (of friends)

Badcat

14th July 2005, 16:33

Oh Yes! They'll just love those baby-face looks and evangelist hair style.
A kiddie fiddler, Police prosecutor and born-again.
They'll be queuing up to widen his circle. (of friends)

divine justice perhaps?

see what happens when you violate people?
the world just fucks you square in the arse.
hey graham, this is your lesson in consent.

Paul in NZ

14th July 2005, 16:53

So he got 9 years.
He showed his true colours at sentencing though. He claimed one of his victims consented!
Typical paedophile behaviour to claim the kids lead them on.

Gotta say - He turned out to be disappointingly stupid in the end!

The consentual thing really turned my guts ...

Paul N (still trying to be understanding)

MrMelon

14th July 2005, 16:54

He'll be feeling some ring strain.

MikeL

14th July 2005, 18:40

Hard to know whether his remorse is genuine. Why hasn't he apologized to the victims?
I also feel very sorry for his family. Personal disgrace and humiliation is one thing (could be argued theologically that it's a positive thing - teaching humility and all that) but the unbearable shame inflicted on his innocent family, that they will live with for the rest of their lives, is utterly unforgiveable.

14th July 2005, 18:42

Did I just see on the news that he said the GIRLS said to him that they concented?

:mad: FUCKEN DIRTY CUNT!!! :mad:

SPman

14th July 2005, 18:58

Ironically, I think it is the (usually) religious right wing that suppresses any discussion on alternate sexuality etc and thus it is just so delicious when someone from that end of the spectrum gets stuck in his own tar pit!
Last jury I was on, involved a dominant father-avowed christian-minister-missionary-bible scholar, who had been abusing his kids, sexually and physically from a young age.......
a sorry, sad scenario that fucks everybody involved.....
Why do they do it ? :no:

crashe

14th July 2005, 19:04

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10335791

and then read the updated news....

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10335782

which includes this statement from the arsehole.

At the conclusion (of sentencing), Mr Eaton handed journalists a media statement from Capill:

I am ashamed and greatly regret my past actions. Most appalling is the fact I've hurt those closest to me. I know many people look to me as a campaigner for moral values. I recognise the utter hypocrisy between what I said in public and did privately. I apologise unreservedly to the people of New Zealand for that. What I said publicly is what I believed and still do. I pray that God will have mercy on me and forgive me. I also pray for healing and God's help and love to surround my family whom I've hurt and let down so badly. end.

There was NO APOLOGY to his victim's what so ever....
He deserves whatever he gets in prison.

Skyryder

14th July 2005, 20:19

Last jury I was on, involved a dominant father-avowed christian-minister-missionary-bible scholar, who had been abusing his kids, sexually and physically from a young age.......
a sorry, sad scenario that fucks everybody involved.....
Why do they do it ? :no:

They believe that Satin(Satan) made them. Try tuning into the TBN channel. The one consistent theme with evangelicals is the denial of responsibility when it comes to breaking the law or other vices like gambling etc. Like I said in an earlier post Capill will be back up in the pulpit blaming Satan for his own actions.

Skyryder

Hitcher

14th July 2005, 20:23

Badcat

14th July 2005, 20:23

They believe that Satin made them. Try tuning into the TBN channel. The one consistent theme with evangelicals is the denial of responsibility when it comes to breaking the law or other vices like gambling etc. Like I said in an earlier post Capill will be back up in the pulpit blaming satin for his own actions.

Skyryder
blaming satin?
i'm not a big fan of synthetic textiles either, but that's going a bit far...
k

Skyryder

14th July 2005, 20:37

blaming satin?
i'm not a big fan of synthetic textiles either, but that's going a bit far...
k

Whoops been dissssed. Should be Satan not satin. The wifes been spending again.

Skyryder

MikeL

14th July 2005, 21:56

And his wife knew about it too.

But it doesn't make her less of a victim. I can't begin to imagine the agony such women go through. Is it surprising that some prefer to shut out the reality?

14th July 2005, 22:01

But it doesn't make her less of a victim. I can't begin to imagine the agony such women go through. Is it surprising that some prefer to shut out the reality?
Oh for fuck sakes, she actively knew her husband was fucking an 8 year old. She should be locked up for aiding and abedding a criminal. Any woman that stands by and lets her husband hurt a child has no soul.

myvice

14th July 2005, 22:02

Wow, what a long and well thought out thread (response wise)
My first thoughts where "9mm led injection" but after reading many other views I'm at a bit of a quandry.
I would like to think that we may learn something from this monster so we can protect our young from the others that roam freely but I have doubts that this will be the case.
We have caught them before and there are always more to take their place.
The latest trend is on line chat rooms to ensnare the young and niave.
So what can we do?
Most of these cases are by "trusted" people, eg: teachers, family, group leaders etc. But how do you vete out the nastys?
Most are reasonably intelligent, carismatic people who know what thay want and know if thay act the right way thay will get there chance.
I have been involved in martial arts for a few years and a large part has been teaching (offsider, or more often, target) self defence. All good but if the victim knows his/her attacker they wont respond as thay should!
So that leaves us with.
Dont know what to look for.
Cant protect our kids if we're not there.
Kids often cant protect themselves.
Back to 9mm long term problem solver.
And the "I had a hard life too" doesnt hold any water with me, for reasons that I wont go into here.
No ones child-hood was perfect but we're not all out to hurt each other.

"Thou Shal Not Kill"? so why has 99% of ALL religions gone out to do just that at every opportunity?

MikeL

14th July 2005, 22:26

She should be locked up for aiding and abedding a criminal. Any woman that stands by and lets her husband hurt a child has no soul.

Perhaps if you were to try to imagine yourself in her situation you might not be so quick to judge and condemn her.

Ixion

14th July 2005, 22:35

Perhaps if you were to try to imagine yourself in her situation you might not be so quick to judge and condemn her.

Even with feet of clay, these moccasins pinch.

Pixie

14th July 2005, 23:28

They believe that Satin(Satan) made them. Try tuning into the TBN channel. The one consistent theme with evangelicals is the denial of responsibility when it comes to breaking the law or other vices like gambling etc. Like I said in an earlier post Capill will be back up in the pulpit blaming Satan for his own actions.

Skyryder
This is what religion is all about.It allows weak minded individuals to live their lives according to a template and not have to use their brains.
In short it's a crutch.

15th July 2005, 06:46

Perhaps if you were to try to imagine yourself in her situation you might not be so quick to judge and condemn her.
You're condoning this behaviour?
Imagine myself in this situation? :oi-grr: :weird: You're sick!
I feel ill, I really do.

HE'S HURTING CHILDREN, ARE YOU FUCKEN THICK?

placidfemme

15th July 2005, 07:44

9 years ain't long enough... Unless they shove him in a cell with "WIMPY BITCH" tattooed on his forehead...

750Y

15th July 2005, 08:04

i feel sick... blahhhhh
what a disgusting, sickening, monster, hurting our kids this way.
He should do the honorable thing & kill himself, but hey it's all about him right?

placidfemme

15th July 2005, 08:05

i feel sick... blahhhhh
what a disgusting, sickening, monster, hurting our kids this way.
He should do the honorable thing & kill himself, but hey it's all about him right?

hes a wimp... he snivels and crys and shakes like a coward... he hasn't got the balls to kill himself... but those characteristics will make him very "attractive" in the cells

Lou Girardin

15th July 2005, 08:33

Have I missed something? How do we know that his wife knew?

In the notorious email to his "supporters", he referred to biblical teachings about sex with minors. as if he was confused about whether his actions were wrong in the eyes of his God.
Even in the depths of depravity, these people try to justify themselves with writings from centuries past.

Deano

15th July 2005, 08:52

The guy that bashed him outside the courtroom should get a medal.

Consentual sex ? - fuck off back to the hole you crawled from scumbag.

Holy Roller

15th July 2005, 09:24

This is what religion is all about.It allows weak minded individuals to live their lives according to a template and not have to use their brains.
In short it's a crutch.
No wonder why the Bible says that the path to God is narrow (read true Christianity, not a form of religion) and those who find it are few. Our western influenced mindset allows one to justify action or inaction according to the situation one finds themselves in. Christianity is not just for the mindless unthinking general mass of population, or for those with a crisis in their lives.
The abhorant actions of Capill were rightly described by the judge though the sentence may not have been harsh enough that was handed down.

Yet another object lesson to those who call themselves Christians to examine their lives so that on the final day before God, one does not find themselves disquallified.

I am personally deeply hurt by the actions of Capill as during the time of offending I subscribed to the party policy and was actively involved helping with the cause, eating up the moral and political stand the CHP and Capill stood for, Also that such actions bring the name of God into disrepute.
Thats my RANT over sorry guys.

Ixion

15th July 2005, 09:31

No wonder why the Bible says that the path to God is narrow (read true Christianity, not a form of religion) and those who find it are few. Our western influenced mindset allows one to justify action or inaction according to the situation one finds themselves in. Christianity is not just for the mindless unthinking general mass of population, or for those with a crisis in their lives.
The abhorant actions of Capill were rightly described by the judge though the sentence may not have been harsh enough that was handed down.

Yet another object lesson to those who call themselves Christians to examine their lives so that on the final day before God, one does not find themselves disquallified.

I am personally deeply hurt by the actions of Capill as during the time of offending I subscribed to the party policy and was actively involved helping with the cause, eating up the moral and political stand the CHP and Capill stood for, Also that such actions bring the name of God into disrepute.
Thats my RANT over sorry guys.

Matthew 7:15-19.

Zed

15th July 2005, 10:27

This is what religion is all about.It allows weak minded individuals to live their lives according to a template and not have to use their brains.
In short it's a crutch.Yeah Capell's a loser, but over-generalisations about us "weak-minded religious individuals" is not called for!

No doubt in my mind that people like you Pixie will use Capell as justification to say that Christianity is a crock, right? You really have no idea. :nono:

Lou Girardin

15th July 2005, 10:41

Yeah Capell's a loser, but over-generalisations about us "weak-minded religious individuals" is not called for!

No doubt in my mind that people like you Pixie will use Capell as justification to say that Christianity is a crock, right? You really have no idea. :nono:

Unfortunately Zed, there seems to be so many people relying on historic scrawlings rather than their own common-sense and conscience that they may be becoming the norm.

Holy Roller

15th July 2005, 11:49

Matthew 7:15-19.
Sometimes fruit takes a while to either ripen or rot.
Great reply so true

Zed

15th July 2005, 11:55

Unfortunately Zed, there seems to be so many people relying on historic scrawlings rather than their own common-sense and conscience that they may be becoming the norm."Seems to be" is the key phrase here...you guys probably only know a handful of religious folk personally, so what are your conclusions based on?? A few personal testimonies and the reports of the media? :rofl:

I understand that people get put off religion because of such hypocrisy, but to me that excuse isn't "using your brain" either! Don't knock it until YOU try it I say. :weird:

Lou Girardin

15th July 2005, 12:49

"Seems to be" is the key phrase here...you guys probably only know a handful of religious folk personally, so what are your conclusions based on?? A few personal testimonies and the reports of the media? :rofl:

I understand that people get put off religion because of such hypocrisy, but to me that excuse isn't "using your brain" either! Don't knock it until YOU try it I say. :weird:

Been there, done that. Saw the movie, bought the T shirt. Don't want any part of it no more.
Only go into churches under sufferance and then only to cry at weddings and laugh at funerals.

pete376403

15th July 2005, 12:49

I heard on the radio that Capill claimed he was abused as a child. I also heard the judge gave him "credit" for the guilty plea. Given that he hadn't shown any remorse (apart from that for being caught) up to that point, maybe there was the realisation that, regardless of his plea, he was going to be found guilty and go down, so why not cop the plea and perhaps get a lighter sentence? I don't believe at all that the guilty plea was to "spare his victims or family"

Zed

15th July 2005, 12:58

Been there, done that.Aha! That must be where you get your *zeal* from! :not:

KATWYN

15th July 2005, 14:01

i cannot understand how a grown man can do those sorts of things

Probably a very large part of the prefrontal lobe is missing in their brain. -and
theres a few with that problem so it seems.

I wonder how Caphills wife feels toward Graham......surely everytime she
looks at the guy she must feel sick and can't stand the sight of him....if she
doesnt, well.........thats scary....really scary

Paul in NZ

15th July 2005, 14:10

Aha! That must be where you get your *zeal* from! :not:

Er no.. Lou has a Bandit I think...

Paul in NZ

15th July 2005, 14:17

I dunno...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3346521a12855,00.html

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3344146a12855,00.html

All pretty depressing reading...

Cheers

Paul in NZ

15th July 2005, 14:21

Probably a very large part of the prefrontal lobe is missing in their brain. -and
theres a few with that problem so it seems.

I wonder how Caphills wife feels toward Graham......surely everytime she
looks at the guy she must feel sick and can't stand the sight of him....if she
doesnt, well.........thats scary....really scary

Sigh! Who really knows? I wonder how much he has manipulated her sense of reality so that objective judgement is no longer a possibility?

Sadly, like a lot of celebrity prisioners, I'll bet some sad sack will be writing to him inside and falling in love with him... Yuck!

Cheers

matthewt

15th July 2005, 14:24

And who watched stake-out last night. Lots of dodgy men in chat rooms trawling for young kids.

I put it onto dvd for a friend at work whose daugther spends most of her time on MSN. I don't think she realises how widespread this is in NZ.

Hitcher

15th July 2005, 14:41

I heard on the radio that Capill claimed he was abused as a child.
He was 19 years old when the abuse is alleged to have taken place. "Child" maybe true in his case...

Lou Girardin

15th July 2005, 14:54

Aren't they all abused as a child. Just another "it's not my fault, I'm a victim too" excuse.
But he's going to be a victim for sure in the next 9 years. he'll probably be sitting on an inner tube for the rest of his worthless life.

marty

15th July 2005, 15:00

a short rope and a high bar would be mr capills (and his victims) best option right now.

crashe

15th July 2005, 22:41

He was 19 years old when the abuse is alleged to have taken place. "Child" maybe true in his case...

Oh so Capill was 19 when he was allegedly abused..
Ummm he is an adult at 19, so he had CONSENTUAL (sp) sex then... :whistle:

So who is he saying that "abused" him... a female or a male?

Abuse in a child is 16 years an under... No one is a child at 19 years of age.

Capill it trying to cop out on what he has done.... He raped and abused 3 young girls. He hasn't faced up to what he has done and never will.
This is the way pedeophile mind's work... thats why he won't ever apologise to the 3 victim's. As pedeophile's see in their mind that its ok for what they have done.

9 years isn't long enough for what he did. These young girls now grown up women have to live with what he did to them for the rest of their lives. One even tried or wanted to commit suicide.

There are many (sadly) that have been abused over the years, but they don't go and do it to others. Capill is a feeble gutless male.

placidfemme

16th July 2005, 10:41

Oh so Capill was 19 when he was allegedly abused..
Ummm he is an adult at 19, so he had CONSENTUAL (sp) sex then... :whistle:

So who is he saying that "abused" him... a female or a male?

Abuse in a child is 16 years an under... No one is a child at 19 years of age.

Capill it trying to cop out on what he has done.... He raped and abused 3 young girls. He hasn't faced up to what he has done and never will.
This is the way pedeophile mind's work... thats why he won't ever apologise to the 3 victim's. As pedeophile's see in their mind that its ok for what they have done.

9 years isn't long enough for what he did. These young girls now grown up women have to live with what he did to them for the rest of their lives. One even tried or wanted to commit suicide.

There are many (sadly) that have been abused over the years, but they don't go and do it to others. Capill is a feeble gutless male.

Damn right! :Punk:

MikeL

16th July 2005, 11:04

Oh for fuck sakes, she actively knew her husband was fucking an 8 year old. She should be locked up for aiding and abedding a criminal. Any woman that stands by and lets her husband hurt a child has no soul.

Is this the general view of Mrs Capill? Am I alone in feeling some sympathy for her??
I'm not sure that whatever knowledge or suspicion she might have had about her husband's crimes amounts to complicity. In any case my original comment was about the agonizing dilemma that such women find themselves in. Surely just a little compassion is called for here...

Ixion

16th July 2005, 11:20

placidfemme

16th July 2005, 11:22

Is this the general view of Mrs Capill? Am I alone in feeling some sympathy for her??
I'm not sure that whatever knowledge or suspicion she might have had about her husband's crimes amounts to complicity. In any case my original comment was about the agonizing dilemma that such women find themselves in. Surely just a little compassion is called for here...

I think in a way she could have done something to stop what was happening... but you can see it from her point of veiw... as wrong as it may be it was right for her and her family.

They have 10 kids... does anyone know if Mrs. Capill works? With 10 kids it must have been hard to hold down a job, so I'll assume that she was a stay at home mom... Capill didn't abuse his own kids (not that we know of). His nice big pay check paid for everything... Women from Mrs. Capills era (no offense to the older readers) are very traditional and seeing as they were "christians" keeping the family together and obeying your husband (how damn sexist) is top on the list.

Now lets say she knew (which apparently she did) that Capill was abusing kiddies... she more than likely didn't know the extent in which it was happening... also if she had spoken up... he could have become physically/verbally/mentally abusive towards her and the 10 kiddies under his own roof... also had he been convicted or charged with such offenses... theres no more money to feed 10 mouths (11 including her own).

From a mothers point of veiw she may have been doing what was best for her kids, which is unfortunate for the girls he did abuse... but remember there are always two sides to every story (I'm just refering to Mrs. Capill with this comment).

Also who's to say he wasn't physically abusive to her... if his mind is that twisted that he can't tell right from wrong and abuses kids then he may very well have been abusing his own wife... she may have been too scared to leave him or report him... she may have been ashamed, you never know.

crashe

16th July 2005, 18:48

In the "Email" that Capill sent to his supposed supporters, he also asked them all, if they could give money every week to pay the mortgage...as he has no money left and he is worried that his wife and children will loose the house they live in...

Well not all the kids are now children.... time they paid board if they still live at home... time she got a job or went on the DPB. WINZ will help towards the mortgage...

I think he had a nerve to ask his friends to give money to keep his wife in a home...

I would think that he owns a huge home..... maybe its time to downgrade to a cheaper home.

If the wife really knew what was happening, and going by what the victim's have stated... then YES she should also be charged with something.

I also believe that the police should also be investigating all 10 children of theirs... He has probably brainwashed his kids into believeing that what he has done is ok....

Flyingpony

16th July 2005, 22:40

No words can explain the anger every mother and father would have if this happened to a child they did or didn't know.

Jackrat

17th July 2005, 00:40

Is this the general view of Mrs Capill? Am I alone in feeling some sympathy for her??
I'm not sure that whatever knowledge or suspicion she might have had about her husband's crimes amounts to complicity. In any case my original comment was about the agonizing dilemma that such women find themselves in. Surely just a little compassion is called for here...

No mike your not alone in feeling that way.
Some people just need to blame somebody before they get around to thinking about it a bit more.
I personaly know three women that have been through this type of thing.
None of them had any idea even though the abuse spaned three generations.
They ALL thought it was only them and were to scared/ashamed to admit or talk about it.When it finaly came out they were ALL totaly shattered and went through the whole range of emotions,begining with denial,support for the abuser,Shame an self loathing,distrust of all men,Thoughts of suicide,ect ect.
Their all still having counciling today.
I also knew the creep who destroyed their lives very well,,,,but not as well as I thought.I've also had to listen to the child victims ask why nobody did anything, because they belived somebody must of known.
capills wife will go through all this an more in the years to come,but in a very public way.
The creep involved in the abuse I know about fooled 20/30 very close friends an family for about 40 years,,,,capills wife had no chance

Ms Piggy

17th July 2005, 10:08

Who else gives a shudder of disgust when this creature appears on TV?
TV1 showed old footage of him railing against child abuse when he was leader of the CDP. At the same time he was abusing kids as young as 5.
The shame is that he has protection while on remand. They should really put him amongst the general inmates and run a sweep on how long he lasts. as an ex-pollie and Police prosecutor I'd give him about 5 minutes.
One of the things I find completely outrageous about all Graham Capill's crime is that this was a man who spoke out against homsexuality, he made the claim that it was a well known fact that all paedophiles were homosexuals...I recall saying, at the time I heard him making that particular ridiculous statement, that he was probably a closet homsexual himself and thats why he kept going on about it. Never did I think for a moment he would be guilty of such a heinous crime. :no:

Ms Piggy

17th July 2005, 10:34

I don't think this is something we as a community can change... People who have tendancies such as child abuse/child porn and the such know its not a socially accepted fetish (as you all know BDSM is looked upon in a bad way and it's nothing compared to anything child related) so when someone feels those lets say... dirty... feelings it's not like they are going to go to anyone (a friend/pastor/spouse/family member) and say something like "I want to touch children". And when put into a situation where they know they have the oppertunity to do such things... it just happens... their passion/desire/lust (insert appropriate word here) is all they can feel as soon as they know "this is their chance".
The reason I've quoted you PF is that in my personal expereince it wouldn't make a difference sometimes even if the person did tell their Pastor they were struggling.

My own personal experience of the church and issues like porn, paedophilia and sexual deviancy is that they are ill equipped generally to deal with it.

My personal experience was that the person I knew who had major issues in these areas was simply told to pray more, read more scriptures and get prayed for. The person I knew on several occasions confessed his struggles to his Pastor, to the church in a church service and to me. The result was that none of these people (myself included) took his issues seriously enough - they praised him for being "brave" to speak out about his struggles but, it was until years later he finally met some peope that were willing to speak the truth to him and ensure he got the correct help. He ended up attending the STOP programme - a prevention programme for paedophiles and rapists.

My peronal experience was that the church as a whole lived under the incredibly naieve assumption that prayer & scripture solve everything. Another reason I felt compelled to leave and no longer call myself a christian.

Please note: I have said several time this was my personal expereince, however this experience was over a period of around 4 years and within 2 or 3 different churches & a bible college in NZ.

Oh yeah and if you'd like to discuss it further PM me.

Ms Piggy

17th July 2005, 10:50

"Consensual" sex with an eight-year-old. I mean, really. Talk about delusional. The man is a head case. And his wife knew about it too. You think she'd worry about her own kids. No happy endings here, I fear.
I heard from a reliable source that 1 of the victims was his own daughter. :( Not stated for her own protection.

crashe

17th July 2005, 11:07

I heard from a reliable source that 1 of the victims was his own daughter. :( Not stated for her own protection.

ummmmmm out of the three victim's - one was a close relative.... but not a daughter.... unless victim two or three was a daughter.
This again was never stated for her own protection....
This person told a church member and they blew the whistle on him.

Hitcher

17th July 2005, 15:21

I heard from a reliable source that 1 of the victims was his own daughter. :( Not stated for her own protection.
One could reasonably deduce, on the basis of evidence presented in Court, that all three were his daughters.

17th July 2005, 15:50

No mike your not alone in feeling that way.
Some people just need to blame somebody before they get around to thinking about it a bit more.

Right, so you know what every person has gone through?

Ms Piggy

17th July 2005, 15:50

One could reasonably deduce, on the basis of evidence presented in Court, that all three were his daughters.
Hmmmmm...ok, yuk!

17th July 2005, 15:55

I heard from a reliable source that 1 of the victims was his own daughter. :( Not stated for her own protection.
Ok, so SHE KNEW that her husband was sexually abusing THEIR daughter and she still didn't say anything. LOCK HER UP!
I have no pitty for the bitch, why the hell should I? Are you people not understanding that she was letting her husband do this?

SixPackBack

17th July 2005, 17:42

She's a weak women......if my wife thought for one moment that i was interfering with my daughter or any other child i would wake up with my dick sitting on the side dresser.....and rightly so!

Skyryder

17th July 2005, 17:52

Ok, so SHE KNEW that her husband was sexually abusing THEIR daughter and she still didn't say anything. LOCK HER UP!
I have no pitty for the bitch, why the hell should I? Are you people not understanding that she was letting her husband do this?

On the understanding that the mother was 'aware' of what her husband was doing, I would go so far as to say that she was 'aiding and abetting' her husband's abuse.

Once I may have had some sympathy for the woman but I have found that as one gets older synmpathy and compassion become more difficult to reconcile with wilfull acts...........of any kind. Acts of incest even more so.

That this woman may, and I stress may, have had knowledge of this within her own family suggests to me someone who has little faith in the religion they profess to practice.

Skyryder

Paul in NZ

17th July 2005, 18:07

One could reasonably deduce, on the basis of evidence presented in Court, that all three were his daughters.

Please just say this is not so...

I cannot concieve of the evil that must be inside a person to do such a thing, not just once but 3 times. These poor children, already twisted by right wing 'christian' (don't worry Zed there is NOTHING Christ like about this person) parent just so he can do this....

Reason be damned... Pass out the pitchforks and burning oil....

I think any of you out there that are the responsible fathers of daughters would feel what I'm feeling. Mr Capil, I'm a reasonable man but I have my limits - this is beyond the pale.... You have diminished us all you coward...

Do not expect forgiveness on this earth!

God I feel like I need a shower... Bastard... His own daughters? All 3?

17th July 2005, 18:08

I was giving an alternate opinion based on my own expereince,an the expereince of people very close to me.
I didn't at any stage say I knew what every person has been through.
Telling me to "FUCK OFF CUNT" is not very appropriate, considering you stated that people look for someone to blame. That’s a crock of shit, mate.

James Deuce

17th July 2005, 19:58

He'll probably be booked in for a colostomy on Wednesday, and then he'll get protective custody for the rest of his term.

pete376403

17th July 2005, 21:12

Please just say this is not so...

I cannot concieve of the evil that must be inside a person to do such a thing, not just once but 3 times. These poor children, already twisted by right wing 'christian' (don't worry Zed there is NOTHING Christ like about this person) parent just so he can do this....

Reason be damned... Pass out the pitchforks and burning oil....

I think any of you out there that are the responsible fathers of daughters would feel what I'm feeling. Mr Capil, I'm a reasonable man but I have my limits - this is beyond the pale.... You have diminished us all you coward...

Do not expect forgiveness on this earth!

God I feel like I need a shower... Bastard... His own daughters? All 3?
I knew a guy who was convicted and jailed for sexually abusing his daughter. It had been going on for a number of years and his wife didn't know anything about it. It came to light after the daughter became more and more uncontrollable. He did jail time, the wife divorced and got custody of the kids.
I've never seen him since but another friend said he (the pedo) turned up at his work after being released, full of cheer and bonhomie, couldn't understand why my friend no longer wanted to associate with him. They live in an alternate universe, I'm sure.

Paul in NZ

18th July 2005, 08:29

I knew a guy who was convicted and jailed for sexually abusing his daughter. It had been going on for a number of years and his wife didn't know anything about it. It came to light after the daughter became more and more uncontrollable. He did jail time, the wife divorced and got custody of the kids.
I've never seen him since but another friend said he (the pedo) turned up at his work after being released, full of cheer and bonhomie, couldn't understand why my friend no longer wanted to associate with him. They live in an alternate universe, I'm sure.

Must be true...

It's funny (in a perculiar way, NOT a funny Ha Ha way). I think most of us can sense the possibility of attraction in many things we would never actually consider doing ourselves (like bungy jumping or anal sex)...

But this.... I don't know if it is social conditioning or what but to compound the horror of having sex whith children with Incest is almost too much to handle...

Someone once told me rape was not about sex but more about power. (ie over the victim). So could some clever person tell me what this is about? I just don't get this at all! I mean REALLY don't get it. I understand a bears desire to stand in a frozen river and eat salmon more than I get this...

Surely by knowing the why... We can see the signs in others???

I dunno...

Paul N

skidz

18th July 2005, 10:31

All those sort of pricks need stringing up by thier balls and left to die.
We don't want that sort of low life in this world.
Or put them on an island where they can be used for target training by the armed forces.

crashe

18th July 2005, 11:16

Someone once told me rape was not about sex but more about power. (ie over the victim). So could some clever person tell me what this is about? I just don't get this at all! I mean REALLY don't get it. I understand a bears desire to stand in a frozen river and eat salmon more than I get this...
Surely by knowing the why... We can see the signs in others???

Ok the way I understand it is like this. Others may have a different point of view about it to me... this is just my opinion on it.

Basically the men who do this are in reality very weak shallow men.

By raping and abusing young children or even adults they think in their minds that they are stronger and that they have POWER to stand over someone else.

All it shows is that they really are weak and shallow people.

In their mind, is where they believe they hold the power over someone else.

This power is in fact violence.... The abuse is violent.

They have the physical strength to hold someone down and abuse them.

But its the mind games that they play on their victim's.
The threatening to kill them if they tell anyone.
Thats where the power in the mind comes into play.

But eventually the victim will stand stong and will blow the whistle.
It doesn't matter how long it takes.... but so long as the victim can stand up and say something, then that stops this scum of the earth to stop him in his tracks.

What we must all do, is when someone (child or adult) tells us they have been abused, we MUST believe them and get them help.
Do NOT send them away.... The victim's need the most help.

The offender needs prison time forever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would like to say to any one on KB that is reading this particular thread, that have been sexually or phsyically abused in anyway.
I truely hope that this is not bringing up old horrible memories for you.

Paul in NZ

18th July 2005, 12:11

I would like to say to any one on KB that is reading this particular thread, that have been sexually or phsyically abused in anyway.
I truely hope that this is not bringing up old horrible memories for you.

Yes - Very good point and I appologise for going on and on about it... I'm just trying to understand what would motovate someone to do such a thing...

I have a fascination for motivations, ie why do some people prefer a cruiser and some people a sports bike etc etc.

This just blows my mind though. Perhaps some of the thoughts expressed here are correct, we should just weed these folks out of the gene pool but - in this case too late..... Dunno. Horrible though - just horrible.

crashe

18th July 2005, 12:15

I have a fascination for motivations, ie why do some people prefer a cruiser and some people a sports bike etc etc.

Off Topic - I saw "Easy Rider" movie and that was it for me...
Thats why I love cruiser's over sports bikes. Always will love the cruisers.

Ok and now back to the topic.

ManDownUnder

18th July 2005, 12:41

Basically the men who do this are in reality very weak shallow men.

YUP!

By raping and abusing young children or even adults they think in their minds that they are stronger and that they have POWER to stand over someone else.
Agreed - although I think this is as likely to be a subconscious thing rather than actively thinking they have power.

Manifesting itself as feeling good having "showed her" or "She got what she deserves". They don't know they have a problem though - to them it's a case of acting on what makes them feel good, in their mind they have the "entitlement" or "authority" to "show others".

So they do.

All it shows is that they really are weak and shallow people.
I COULD NOT AGREE MORE!

This power is in fact violence.... The abuse is violent.

They have the physical strength to hold someone down and abuse them.

But its the mind games that they play on their victim's.
The threatening to kill them if they tell anyone.
Thats where the power in the mind comes into play.

Yes - power has a number of sources. From an academic standpoint it can come from:

Reward power: control over valued resources.
Coercive power: ability to inflict punishment, possibly physical.
Expert power: superior knowledge.
Legitimate power: formal rank or position.
Referent power: when people want to be like you.
see http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/power.htm

Power is a situational thing - some the various forms listed above will work in "seducing little girls", others are required to "shut them up about it"

What is needed is another source of power to help these people recognise what's going on (someone they respect pointing out they're WRONG) and have them get help - in a timely manner.

But eventually the victim will stand stong and will blow the whistle.

It doesn't matter how long it takes.... but so long as the victim can stand up and say something, then that stops this scum of the earth to stop him in his tracks.

What we must all do, is when someone (child or adult) tells us they have been abused, we MUST believe them and get them help.
Do NOT send them away.... The victim's need the most help.

... and therein lies the power I mentioned - unfortunately this comes after the offending though. I wish there was some way of reliably intervening before it gets to that point.

The offender needs prison time forever.

Sorry - have to disagree with you on that one. If there is no hope of reabilitation then I agree... they're best out of society. If they can be rehabilitated then I would argue they deserve to be punished, helped and let out. I would also say watch them - and let them know they're being watched.

For me the big question of this behaviour is WHY are they doing it? If we can find that out we can more adequately prescribe future and corrective actions.
MDU - rave over... sorry - but this really is a big issue with me.

Paul in NZ

18th July 2005, 13:22

For me the big question of this behaviour is WHY are they doing it? If we can find that out we can more adequately prescribe future and corrective actions.
MDU - rave over... sorry - but this really is a big issue with me.

Dude - best post thus far!

Thanks

mikey

18th July 2005, 17:29

The guy that bashed him outside the courtroom should get a medal.

fucking oath mate. an they want to lock him up (if they havnt already?)

hope they get put in the same cell so boxer guyy can use him as his punching bag all day long

that was one wicked pre meditated attack, love the video footage that newsboy seems to keep playing.

MSTRS

18th July 2005, 17:49

If there is no hope of reabilitation then I agree... they're best out of society. If they can be rehabilitated then I would argue they deserve to be punished, helped and let out. I would also say watch them - and let them know they're being watched.

For me the big question of this behaviour is WHY are they doing it? If we can find that out we can more adequately prescribe future and corrective actions.
MDU - rave over... sorry - but this really is a big issue with me.
These sickos are 'wired' differently to the rest of us, so how can they be 'rehabilitated'? I mean, most of us are attracted to adult members of the opposite sex, and some are attracted to adult same-sex. Fine. No problem. BUT could any of us be 'rehabilitated' to reverse our preference? No very successfully if at all, I'd say. We also tend to prefer a single partner for life. Whereas a paedofile must keep moving to the next one as they grow beyond the age group that holds the attraction. If society hasn't the balls to put these predators down, they should at least have all their 'bits' removed.

SixPackBack

18th July 2005, 18:46

Is this thread never going to die......he's a complete bastard, we don't understand him we would be happy to see him buggered to death in jail.....lets move on [ sorry but i hate seeing you guys arguing over this cunt]

Hitcher

18th July 2005, 19:57

ManDownUnder

19th July 2005, 09:02

Pick on the "sickos" if it makes you feel better, but the problem won't go away until society (that us folks) changes. New Zealanders have a problem with child abuse and domestic violence generally -- it's a bit like our love of rugby in that it defines us as a nation. How heartachingly sad is that?

Without condoning their actions, Mr Capill and others of his ilk have just taken this to another level. They probably watched their dads do it to their sisters, who probably learned it from their fathers. Our kids and grandkids deserve better. It starts with us.

Exactly right. What if their behaviour is normal (in their mind) yet abhorrant to society? Why should they change? They feel society is simply out of step with them.

It's an egocentric view of the world... but if you think about it - that's exactly the view all of us have (egocentric that is).

I'm NOT saying let them get away with it - I AM saying tackle the problem, not just the criminals. Watching Dr Surfchick's film on Northern Ireland there was a comment in there that caught my ear. The problem has been going on so long it now spans generations. Some people have known nothing else - for them the problem has always been there. The only sure way to stop those passing it on is to find them all, and lock them up for life. That way society gets a fresh start.

This might mean the best solution IS to lock up Graham Capill and other paedophiles for life. It might not be. I don't know and that's a big call to make.

What if the problem comes from Capill's Dad who abused him (I am not incriminating him in any way - this is PURELY a "what if"). If Graham has any brothers or sisters that were similarly abused and subsequently will be more likely to have similar trendencies.

Do we lock them all up too? Or do we wait to see if they offend, and THEN lock them up (i.e. do we sacrifice the liberty of a possible criminal, or the rights of the future victim first).

In the absence of a crystal ball - I say we have to put the liberty and rights of the possible crim first...

... which nicely leads right around to... REHABILITATION. Let's put the rights of the crim first, not cover them with generalised opinions on locking them all up, they're not human, they can't be helped. Let's see if/how we can help and do that instead.

Ever wondered if Graham Capill has contributed to society in any way? I expect he has... maybe he can do that again...

MDU

KATWYN

19th July 2005, 09:22

She's a weak women......if my wife thought for one moment that i was interfering with my daughter or any other child i would wake up with my dick sitting on the side dresser.....and rightly so!

:killingme

KATWYN

19th July 2005, 09:31

Surely by knowing the why... We can see the signs in others???

Paul N

I read a book once about getting into the filthy mind of a pedophile - there
were interveiws given to these creatures while they were doin time.

One of these creatures said that the drive to do it was so strong that if
they were met with a choice 1/ to go to a torturous burning hell for what
they are about to do or 2/ to not touch the child - the answer was not even an option, they would make a choice to go to a buring hell to touch that child.

Reading this as a quote from a pedo really gave me an insight into what the
authorities and rehabilitation services are up against. I mean that
is just pure evil - to lack self control to that degree on a beautiful innocent
little person.

Lias

19th July 2005, 09:44

Someone once told me rape was not about sex but more about power. (ie over the victim). So could some clever person tell me what this is about?

Warning.. This link is guaranteed to offend most :-)
http://img157.exs.cx/img157/6853/punishment5mu.jpg

ManDownUnder

19th July 2005, 09:47

Warning.. This link is guaranteed to offend most :-)
http://img157.exs.cx/img157/6853/punishment5mu.jpg

Gotta admit I don't get it - and I'm not sure I want to...

MDU

Pixie

19th July 2005, 09:55

Ok the way I understand it is like this. Others may have a different point of view about it to me... this is just my opinion on it.

Basically the men who do this are in reality very weak shallow men.

By raping and abusing young children or even adults they think in their minds that they are stronger and that they have POWER to stand over someone else.

All it shows is that they really are weak and shallow people.

In their mind, is where they believe they hold the power over someone else.

This power is in fact violence.... The abuse is violent.

They have the physical strength to hold someone down and abuse them.

But its the mind games that they play on their victim's.
The threatening to kill them if they tell anyone.
Thats where the power in the mind comes into play.

But eventually the victim will stand stong and will blow the whistle.
It doesn't matter how long it takes.... but so long as the victim can stand up and say something, then that stops this scum of the earth to stop him in his tracks.

What we must all do, is when someone (child or adult) tells us they have been abused, we MUST believe them and get them help.
Do NOT send them away.... The victim's need the most help.

The offender needs prison time forever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would like to say to any one on KB that is reading this particular thread, that have been sexually or phsyically abused in anyway.
I truely hope that this is not bringing up old horrible memories for you.
All complex organisms share a particular behavioral trait,that is, the imperative to dominate the other indivduals of their species and other organisms that may compete in the environment,the objective is to pass on their genes.
Much of human behaviour,ultimately stems from this trait,from the bullying colleague to the paedophile.The difference being the way the person was socialised/perverted by the experiences that formed their personalities.
If you analyse most behaviours such as the need to be a leader,for example,
it can be shown that the dominance trait is a major driver for this.
Putting unacceptable behaviours down to "evil" is just letting the causative forces of the hook and panders to religious bullshit.
Capill is just another defective personality and should be disposed of.

ManDownUnder

19th July 2005, 10:01

All complex organisms share a particular behavioral trait,that is, the imperative to dominate the other indivduals of their species and other organisms that may compete in the environment,the objective is to pass on their genes.

While I understand and tend to agree with what you're saying, I would suggest that's possibly more of an imperative of non social complex organisms. Social ones need to maintain a balance of individual dominance, while collaborating wiyth a society at large (which is arguable a complex organism in itself) in order to succeed

?

- edit - I surprised myself with that post... feeling all "thinky" today!

- edit 2 - Pixie - I'm not have a goat you, or trying to shoot you down - I really like the post... made me think. Is your post based on a general theory, philosophy, or something you believe yourself (or both?)

MDU

Paul in NZ

19th July 2005, 10:14

And so we come to the useful part of the thread. Well done one and all...

IMHO there are a lot of factors at play here. One is the utter disbelief amoungst the most of us 'NORMAL' folks that this can even occur. It is so outside our frame of reference that we cannot comprehend it happening..

Because of this, and our lack of understanding of the things that drive this behaviour we actually give these people room to offend.

Knowing an event has occured, I cannot help wonder what resources are placed into finding out why. If it is a result of parental abuse then I assume the other members of the family (brothers and sisters) are spoken to and steps taken to ensure their families are safe and the cycle is broken? No, probably not... No money for fences at the top of cliffs, just ambulances and paddy wagons at the bottom..

Badcat

19th July 2005, 10:24

James Deuce

19th July 2005, 10:26

Knowing an event has occured, I cannot help wonder what resources are placed into finding out why. If it is a result of parental abuse then I assume the other members of the family (brothers and sisters) are spoken to and steps taken to ensure their families are safe and the cycle is broken? No, probably not... No money for fences at the top of cliffs, just ambulances and paddy wagons at the bottom..

The "system" is set up to punish those that break laws, irrespective of the natural justice of such a course of action. With that in mind, the victims and perpetrators of systemic family abuse are more likely to go to greater lengths to hide their problems than attempt to work with authorities who are bound by law to report illegal activities or face prosecution and de-registration.

crashe

19th July 2005, 10:43

you know, not everyone continues the cycle if they have been abused.
Its only a few who do it.

Some who abuse have never been abused in their lives.

But those who do abuse should go away for life.

placidfemme

19th July 2005, 10:48

you know, not everyone continues the cycle if they have been abused.
Its only a few who do it.

Thats true... Of all the people I know who've been abused (sexually, verbally or physically), and there are a lot of them (over 40,000 children are abused every year in NZ). I can't name one person who has abused anyone else... If anything it makes them stronger and a better person after they have dealth with the emotional (and sometimes physical) issues of thier abuse.

I don't believe that using the excuse "I was abused" is good enough. Then if anything they should know first hand why not to do such things... :nono:

muzz

19th July 2005, 10:50

What we must all do, is when someone (child or adult) tells us they have been abused, we MUST believe them and get them help.
Do NOT send them away.... The victim's need the most help.

The offender needs prison time forever.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You cant just believe them you must have prof other wise you start locking up innocent people. :weird:
But if they are guilty why punish the rest of us by locking them up wasting valuable resources (ie: tax dollars).
Prisons dont reform they meerly isolate undesirables.
Privatise prisons to make them accountable for there own funding not using tax dollars.

Pixie

19th July 2005, 12:36

While I understand and tend to agree with what you're saying, I would suggest that's possibly more of an imperative of non social complex organisms. Social ones need to maintain a balance of individual dominance, while collaborating wiyth a society at large (which is arguable a complex organism in itself) in order to succeed

?

- edit - I surprised myself with that post... feeling all "thinky" today!

- edit 2 - Pixie - I'm not have a goat you, or trying to shoot you down - I really like the post... made me think. Is your post based on a general theory, philosophy, or something you believe yourself (or both?)

MDU
Both, I think we discount the fact that we operate largely on instinct and then convince ourselves we made conscious decisions,The question is what brought us to a particular decision?
This does not abdicate responsibility for actions,which people like Capill take.
You can wake up every morning with a overpowering need to put a bullet in your head,but it is still an action you decide not to do today.
The "I couldn't fight the urges" argument doesn't wash with me,with the exception of schizophrenia sufferers.

The only organisms,to my knowledge ,in which the individual doesn't strive to pass on it's own genes are the social insects (ants, bees, termites)and the naked mole rat.Each of these only one female breeds and the rest of the population assists the success of the queen,and as the entire population is as genetically close as siblings the same genes get passed on.These species can almost be concidered a single organism.
There is no more point for an individual mole rat to fight for supremacy than for one of your liver cells fighting the others for the same.

Pixie

19th July 2005, 12:53

Thats true... Of all the people I know who've been abused (sexually, verbally or physically), and there are a lot of them (over 40,000 children are abused every year in NZ). I can't name one person who has abused anyone else... If anything it makes them stronger and a better person after they have dealth with the emotional (and sometimes physical) issues of thier abuse.

I don't believe that using the excuse "I was abused" is good enough. Then if anything they should know first hand why not to do such things... :nono:
To say that abusive behaviour is the result of being abused is an over simplification.It would be more likely to be correct to say that domination through abuse teaches that domination is a valid way to succeed,and abuse is one way of achieving it.
For a victim with a different personality,being dominated by abuse may lead them to dominate others in later life by overachieving at work.
Or 6 billion variations on the theme.
I only have two benchmarks to catagorise negative behaviours:
1. Is it a clinical condition.If so get treatment or have the behaviour neutralised by what ever means necessary.

2. I the behaviour requires a conscious decision for the perpetrator to proceed,then the perpetrator should be removed.

ManDownUnder

19th July 2005, 13:07

And society itself can be self governing.
That explains my inclination to happily cut this man's throat.
Perhaps those of us with small children are somewhat emotional about these evil (yes - evil!) and all too prevalent threats to our families.
Perhaps those of us that need to analyse this matter to the nth degree can theorise about the validity of such an action or statement.
I'd be happy to provide more evidence to potential child rapists of the consequences of acting on their impulses and foregoing their responsibility to their own community.

Yeah - I have to admit the father of 2 (that I am) is inclined to say one thing, while the analyst/academic says something else. I also know I'd be on the bandwagon to "Get the bastards" if anyone THOUGHT of touching my kids (5 and 2) like that.

ManDownUnder

19th July 2005, 13:11

To say that abusive behaviour is the result of being abused is an over simplification.It would be more likely to be correct to say that domination through abuse teaches that domination is a valid way to succeed,and abuse is one way of achieving it.
For a victim with a different personality,being dominated by abuse may lead them to dominate others in later life by overachieving at work.
Or 6 billion variations on the theme.
I only have two benchmarks to catagorise negative behaviours:
1. Is it a clinical condition.If so get treatment or have the behaviour neutralised by what ever means necessary.

2. I the behaviour requires a conscious decision for the perpetrator to proceed,then the perpetrator should be removed.

errr... Pixie... GOOD POST! That kinda puts it in perspective... and in a perspective I can't find fault with. (I like that kind of framework... ) I'm learning here - thanks...!

No brownie points for you though - Mr KB site locked me out from doing that...MDU