Ride the loop for MSAC as part of our first major project

[StoneY]

Hello all my fellow Kiwibikers

By now you may have seen our press release announcing MOTO NZ, and hopefully you have had a chance to check out our website www.motonz.org.nz.

And now we are moving really quickly onto our first initiative and we would like to invite you to come along to be part of it all. MOTO NZ is working with the New Zealand Transport Agency (NZTA) on an initiative to improve safety for motorcyclists on New Zealand roadways.

MOTO NZ’s involvement starts with a large-scale ‘rider assessment’ of the roads in question, scheduled for 9th-15th May. It will take various forms, including a series of ‘passes’ by an expert rider hooked up to video and audio. This will be supplemented by a ‘ride the Coromandel loop’ event on 15th of May.

We are asking riders to ride the loop at their leisure, and give their feedback either on the day 15 May 2011, at the Thames Racecourse, or via our website www.motonz.org.nz. The Council members will be at the Thames Racecourse from 11.00 am to 3.30 pm.

See you there
Brent

238329238379

[Quasievil]

ok to have unregistered bikes bro ?

[Ronin]

ok to have unregistered bikes bro ?

What about riders with no licence?

[JakeTehMuss]

ok to have unregistered bikes bro ?


What about riders with no licence?

What about both??

[scracha]

Wot they said....a helluva lot of riders regos expired in April and early May though.

All the best with the MSAC venture though.

[riffer]

ok to have unregistered bikes bro ?


What about riders with no licence?


What about both??


Wot they said....a helluva lot of riders regos expired in April and early May though..

You're welcome to ride the loop with an unregistered and unwarranted bike and with no license. Totally free world.

Just like the Police (who are aware of this initiative) are welcome to "scrutineer" any and all entrants.

You pays your money (or not) and you takes your chances...

[StoneY]

Ride what you want, as Riffer states its YOUR choice

I wont be checking for WOFs, Licenses and Rego's it aint my job

238330

[p.dath]

Hasn't the KiwiRap project effectively done this with every road in NZ?
http://www.kiwirap.co.nz/

[blackdog]

Hasn't the KiwiRap project effectively done this with every road in NZ?
http://www.kiwirap.co.nz/

The word 'motorcycle' didn't show up once on the homepage.

Obviously kiwirap haven't done this already at all.

[awa355]

You're welcome to ride the loop with an unregistered and unwarranted bike and with no license. Totally free world.

Just like the Police (who are aware of this initiative) are welcome to "scrutineer" any and all entrants.

You pays your money (or not) and you takes your chances...

I'm a non conformist,, Will I be able to go with a bike reg'ed/wof? I'll even wear my Hi Viz vest.

[StoneY]

I'm a non conformist,, Will I be able to go with a bike reg'ed/wof? I'll even wear my Hi Viz vest.

Errrrrrr....... no comment
I only ever wear my vizi on official BRONZ rides to mark the TEC marshal spot

The Kiwiwrap system is purely a cage related initiative Phil it has no bearing on bikes
This ride includes a VERY expensive computerized machine with broadcast quality camera's, sensors, recording devices etc to do the same thing, BUT as a bike would experience the ride.

Recording lean angles, braking data, road camber effects etc....motorcycle specific and NZTA paid to bring it over from Victoria as part of this joint project!

[Blackbird]

Hmmm.... nice provocative poster:innocent:

What's bad about the Coromandel Loop? Nothing, it's my home turf and it's bloody great. What's bad about some of the riders who go on the Loop? A lack of skills in reading conditions and riding appropriately, that's why bikes get binned and the blame gets laid on the road.

[Ocean1]

This ride includes a VERY expensive computerized machine with broadcast quality camera's, sensors, recording devices etc to do the same thing, BUT as a bike would experience the ride.

Recording lean angles, braking data, road camber effects etc....motorcycle specific and NZTA paid to bring it over from Victoria as part of this joint project!

Why can't we have our own flash rig? Seems to me one of those and a couple of full time operators might just represent the biggest bang for the safety buck.

[Katman]

Hmmm.... nice provocative poster:innocent:

What's bad about the Coromandel Loop? Nothing, it's my home turf and it's bloody great. What's some of the riders who go on the Loop? A lack of skills in reading conditions and riding appropriately, that's why bikes get binned and the blame gets laid on the road.

I wonder how long that home truth will be conveniently ignored.






Unless, of course, ACC are out to prove a point. :whistle:

[Berries]

The Kiwiwrap system is purely a cage related initiative Phil it has no bearing on bikes
That's not strictly true. If a bike leaves the road then the data picked up in KiwiRAP is going to have a lot of bearing on the outcome. Power poles, trees and deep ditches hurt riders, narrow shoulders leave little room for recovery, especially if you misjudge a corner. A one star road is a one star road whatever vehicle you are on or in.



Recording lean angles, braking data, road camber effects etc....motorcycle specific and NZTA paid to bring it over from Victoria as part of this joint project!
Great bike specific info gathering that will add to KiwiRAP. The problem will come when it comes to funding the hundreds of improvements that will be identified.

[Latte]

That's not strictly true. If a bike leaves the road then the data picked up in KiwiRAP is going to have a lot of bearing on the outcome. Power poles, trees and deep ditches hurt riders, narrow shoulders leave little room for recovery, especially if you misjudge a corner. A one star road is a one star road whatever vehicle you are on or in.



Great bike specific info gathering that will add to KiwiRAP. The problem will come when it comes to funding the hundreds of improvements that will be identified.

How expensive is yellow paint and 70km/h signs?

[Berries]

You're not wrong.

[StoneY]

I wonder how long that home truth will be conveniently ignored.

Unless, of course, ACC are out to prove a point. :whistle:

Only the riders can prove the point Steve..........
Its not ACC trying to prove anything except they LISTENED to the advisors they brought in on MSL

I have been involved in this particular idea since even before MSAC was officially created, told the injury prevention team at ACC that this is the kind of thing we should be supporting with MSL funds.
And lo and behold NZTA had an idea for a project like this on the books! Perfect example project to collaborate on.

Its cheaper to borrow the aussie bike for a trial period than to build one, and as it is an SV 1000 I would say its a perfect machine to test the loop with.

Kiwi wrap has shown us what CAN be done but this will be far more motorcycle specific with cam helmet views, forward and back set camera's, gyroscopic data capture, etc etc
The hard thing is finding a rider that's consistent enough to do the job.....
And no............ that not an invite to volunteer your services :D

[Blackbird]

The hard thing is finding a rider that's consistent enough to do the job.....
:D

Maybe one who has been trained to ride consistently - police or IAM member?

[StoneY]

Maybe one who has been trained to ride consistently - police or IAM member?

That's what we were looking at in the long term as I understand it.
This first event will be a test case anyway, so unsure who will ride it this time.

NZTA have the connections to find the right personnel I am sure.

[p.dath]

The Kiwiwrap system is purely a cage related initiative Phil it has no bearing on bikes
This ride includes a VERY expensive computerized machine with broadcast quality camera's, sensors, recording devices etc to do the same thing, BUT as a bike would experience the ride.

The Kiwirap system does almost exactly the same thing - and is even partially ACC funded.
If you feel that Kiwirap is somehow missing something important in the way they rate the roads with regard to motorcycling it might be better to get them to update the model, so that there is one single voice for parliament to hear, rather than having several smaller competing voices.

From a quick look, the the major changes required would be:
* Consideration given to the roading surface. However I appreciate this is difficult, as it would have to be re-evaluated all the time. Perhaps this is not even practical. The cost of re-checking every road al the time would be huge.
* Rather than use all crash statistics to contribute to the score, brake out the motorcycle crash statistics separately - so you could look at the roading network by vehicle type. I imagine this would involve a bit of computer time, and could be done now.

Did you know the Kiwirap system already has a vehicle fitted out for video like you describe?
http://www.kiwirap.co.nz/collecting_data.html
You could probably save a pile of money by just requesting access to this video - which already exists for the whole of the roading network.

Just to give you a quick recap, this is the info collected by Kiwirap:

Road section type (motorway, 4-lane divided, 2-lane undivided, etc)
Lane width
Sealed shoulder
Horizontal alignment*
Terrain*
Delineation
Overtaking provision
Overtaking requirements*
Speed environment*
Offset and severity of roadside hazards
Traffic volume


And this is the three main targets they have:

Run-off road crashes (which account for over 50% of all crashes)
Head-on crashes
Crashes at intersections


Does this not sound almost exactly like the same kind of problem motorcylists have?


I encourage you to take one more look at Kiwirap. The Government has already spent a pile of cash on this. It seems a shame to spend another pile of cash collecting information that as already been collected.

[StoneY]

T

Did you know the Kiwirap system already has a vehicle fitted out for video like you describe?


Do you really think the NZTA experts, (and I do mean EXPERTS) didn't think of that mate? the national Driving Standards manager is in behind this one.

This is far more than a mere video assessment of the road, the bike has computerized g-force meters, gyroscopes, you name it.

Its going to capture data on camber effects, line of sight issues specific to a motorcyclist (such as visual assessment of the exit line in a corner, is that tree/post/bus shelter poorly placed in the riders LOS) things that from a motorcycling perspective just cannot be measured from the car that they use for Kiwi Wrap

If you think you can assess roads and grade them for motorcycles in a car, think again mate. Do rally drivers take a trail bike over a gravel road to make the course notes they use?

I know of riders who look specifically for roads with a 3 or 4 rating on wrap so they know its a challenge to ride.
However a proper assessment on a proper motorcycle by a rider with proven consistency would be far more beneficial, and allows us to identify real obstacles or potential dangers that a car driver just wont even notice.

The MSAC and NZTA put a lot of effort into this one, we would not do it if we felt there was nothing to be gained.
It is also something MANY riders have already told us would be a great initiative, and we are lucky to have NZTA agree and pick up MOST of the costs from their budgets!
There is a LOT to be gained, and this first ride is a test case anyway to see IF this is worthy of being implemented nationwide.

[Katman]

I imagine all it's going to tell us is that the road is perfectly safe.......






......if it is ridden safely.

[Blackbird]

I imagine all it's going to tell us is that the road is perfectly safe.......

.....if it is ridden safely.

Sadly, I'm not allowed to give you a green rep again....

[p.dath]

This is far more than a mere video assessment of the road, the bike has computerized g-force meters, gyroscopes, you name it.

Its going to capture data on camber effects, line of sight issues specific to a motorcyclist (such as visual assessment of the exit line in a corner, is that tree/post/bus shelter poorly placed in the riders LOS) things that from a motorcycling perspective just cannot be measured from the car that they use for Kiwi Wrap
...
There is a LOT to be gained, and this first ride is a test case anyway to see IF this is worthy of being implemented nationwide.

As you say, lets give it a trial. I hope that it does produce something that can be used to measure the rest of the country by.

A gyroscope is going to measure how far the motorcycle is leaned over. A g-force sensor is going to measure how much acceleration the riding is applying into a corner. A line of sight measurement is going to be based on the line that the rider chooses through the corner.
The measurements sound like they will be very particular to the rider taking the measurements.

The trick is - do you choose a good rider who wont have a problem, or a rider with little experience who will have a problem?

I'm not confident that the sensors you mention can be used to gain information that suggests a modification to the roading network is required - as opposed to more training for the rider that is collecting the data. :)

[bogan]

I'm assuming with a borrowed bike this sort of thing has been done over in vic, what were the outcomes of that?

[StoneY]

All good points Phil but it has made a measurable difference to several black routes (motorcycle specific) in Victoria, so we have been told
Bogan, quite a few roading improvements were identified in Vic and the local authorities responsible for them roads did the work from existing budget.

The only requirement for the rider is consistency and staying at legal speeds of course.
Naturally your never going to exactly match every riding style but this is a good start.
We are actually hoping for less than perfect conditions on the day as well.....

[Eyegasm]

Bogan, quite a few roading improvements were identified in Vic and the local authorities responsible for them roads did the work from existing budget.

That's all good, but if improvements are to be done to roads in NZ will the same model be applied?

Or will fixing the road come out of the MSL fund instead of the general fund?

I am all for spending the MSL fund to find out all the techy data on the road for
motorcyclists, but not spending the MSL fund to fix the road.

[StoneY]

That's all good, but if improvements are to be done to roads in NZ will the same model be applied?

Or will fixing the road come out of the MSL fund instead of the general fund?


Fixing the road will not come from MSL funds mate. Thats to be paid for from the existing budgets with the proper regional authority

However identifying where some fixes would be beneficial to us (eg removal of roadside hazards [dont start on WRB's grr] LOS improvements etc) is the sort of thing we can research, prove or identify with projects like this.
The Vic fund they raise from bikes is huge compared to ours, we would never be able to directly fund the engineering initiatives they have been able to.

[avgas]

So basically its coroloop on the tax payer?
Sweet gig!

[Luckylegs]

Fixing the road will not come from MSL funds mate. Thats to be paid for from the existing budgets with the proper regional authority

However identifying where some fixes would be beneficial to us (eg removal of roadside hazards [dont start on WRB's grr] LOS improvements etc) is the sort of thing we can research, prove or identify with projects like this.
The Vic fund they raise from bikes is huge compared to ours, we would never be able to directly fund the engineering initiatives they have been able to.

So how much of our $30 bucks does this consume. Ie will/should we expect other projects at the same time or in the near future?

[Blackbird]

That's all good, but if improvements are to be done to roads in NZ will the same model be applied?

The only improvement I'd like to see as a Coromandel ratepayer is for those useless bastards at Thames-Coromandel District Council to actually sweep up all the pea gravel after road patching. Not only for the safety of bikes but to protect my paintwork :angry:

The more I look at that poster on Stone Y's original post, the more agitated I get with respect to whether attention is being diverted from the real issues. I hope Katman is right about them finding that the Coro Loop is actually fine and it's the poor riders who are the problem. I guess that scenario is too Machiavellian to be the deliberate intention of LTSA et al? :innocent:. Is there any statistical evidence to suggest that road conditions are the root cause of motorcycle accidents on the Loop as opposed to rider error? Mind you, there seems to be a fair percentage of people on KB who think that formal training isn't a macho thing to do, so maybe upskilling isn't a favoured option.

Most people ride bikes for the thrill,challenge and freedom. Similarly, most people ride the Coro Loop, Rimutakas, South Island passes etc for the thrill and challenge. By all means remove risks such as surface defects but don't remove the reason for riding those great roads by changing their characteristics!

[Murray]

Nah weather looks to dodgy for me

Saturday 14 Showery. Fresh northwesterlies.
Sunday 15 Showery. Northwesterlies turning southwest

But then again I suppose wet roads will be factored into it.

[StoneY]

So how much of our $30 bucks dows this consume. Ie will/should we expect other projects at the same time or in the near future?

This first event is a test case matey.

And I would expect yes to ongoing projects of this sort but only time will tell, I am not in a position to say much more, simply because no decisions yet made on the future of this project, the test case will set a benchmark and we will have to evaluate what we get from it.

I'm not the comm's spokesperson for the council so have to be careful I don't make you lot here promises I cannot keep :)

In this case I was told 'Brent, place this event on Kiwibiker so the masses know its happening' and that's something I am very happy to have done.

However I don't wanna get bogged down into side discussions of whats next, what else we will do, how we can pay for x or y....just wanted to invite all who can to come ride the loop and give us some feedback, meet the councilors, and have a say at Thames Racetrack, so come meet us and say hello!

See you all there (those who attend) I have said all i can say on this thread, so come meet us on the day

[Luckylegs]

This first event is a test case matey.

And I would expect yes to ongoing projects of this sort but only time will tell, I am not in a position to say much more, simply because no decisions yet made on the future of this project, the test case will set a benchmark and we will have to evaluate what we get from it.

I'm not the comm's spokesperson for the council so have to be careful I don't make you lot here promises I cannot keep :)

In this case I was told 'Brent, place this event on Kiwibiker so the masses know its happening' and that's something I am very happy to have done.

However I don't wanna get bogged down into side discussions of whats next, what else we will do, how we can pay for x or y....just wanted to invite all who can to come ride the loop and give us some feedback, meet the councilors, and have a say at Thames Racetrack, so come meet us and say hello!

See you all there (those who attend) I have said all i can say on this thread, so come meet us on the day

Cool, cheers!

[p.dath]

All good points Phil but it has made a measurable difference to several black routes (motorcycle specific) in Victoria, so we have been told

Didn't Victoria have a significant increase in motorcycle accidents, particularly in the rural areas, over the last three years compared to the trend for the last decade?

My impression was that the most recent changes to their safety program in Australia (over the last 5 years) weren't working.

Just did a quick Google, and found this paper by Monash University. I particularly like this quote:
http://www.monash.edu.au/cemo/roadsafety/abstracts_and_papers/004/christie_motorcycle.pdf

Overall, Australia ranked sixth worst amongst the 23 OECD nations
rated in respect of motorcycle fatalities. This compares unfavourably with Australia’s fatality rate for all road
users per 10,000 registered motor vehicles of 1.5 – below the OECD median of 2 fatalities per 10,000 registered
vehicles- which placed it equal sixth within the group of 23 OECD countries compared.


You have my warm support, because doing nothing will result in no change - but do you think modelling the NZ system after the the sixth worst country in the OECD for motorcycle fatalities is wise?

Could we perhaps choose a country in the top half instead?


You might also find this study into the Victorian "Motorycle Safety Levy" (funny, that name sounds familiar) also of interest:
http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedings/b-andrea-strategicmotorcyclesafetyprograminvictoriaaustrali a.pdf
Funnily enough, they also added a levy onto every motorcyclist. About half way down is how they chose to spend their levy funds.

[awa355]

I just had a look at the flyer on 1st post. It shows the loop taking in Kopu hill, Whangamata-Waihi-Paeroa- Thames. Is this the route planned?

Just going by the "Coromandel Loop" title I would've gone sailing through Thames, up to Coromandel, HW25 to Whitianga-Hukuai, back to Kopu. . Incidently, how far is this run distance wise?

[Blackbird]

Just short of 200km, Kopu-Kopu

[Mom]

I imagine all it's going to tell us is that the road is perfectly safe.......
......if it is ridden safely.

At a reduced speed limit, while wearing hi viz vests...

Reckon I could ride the loop, at legal speeds (now) and live to tell the tale...

I imagine I may be able to ride it at a little better than legal speeds and do the same, with no hint of a hi viz anywhere...

It will however give a bit of a step up to the people involved in organising it...

Will look good on their CV's :yes:

[Ocean1]

About half way down is how they chose to spend their levy funds.

Bulk of it makes sense.

Treat motorcycle run-off-road blackspots (Run-off-road crashes)

Treat motorcycle blackspots (not run-off-road) (Intersection crashes)

Treat selected high-volume motorcycle routes (Road surface and environmental hazards)

Which begs the question: Why the poor results, (if, indeed that's where the funds have gone).

I notice their accident demographics differ from ours significantly, notably across the age / experience range.

[Smifffy]

So which of "The options" will be "owned" by the "Motorcyclists" on this ride?

Do we really need a bunch of ACC sponsored motorcyclists recommending that the coro loop needs straightening out?

Maybe more WRBs will be a great improvement? TBTP love them and have a crapload of statistics showing how much safer they make the roads.

More white paint?

I'm really looking forward to the report that comes out of this one. There will be a report right?

I won't be on the ride, but the biggest hazard I've encountered on the loop is cages on my side of the road coming toward me. I'm glad I'm paying more than them so that somebody else might figure this out too.

[Ronin]

It seems to me to be a flawed test right from the get go. It is all very well to have someone ride a sensor laden bike around the loop (all the while knowing they are being monitored) but unless they are willing to just ride it like they normally would then what is the point?

But, we have to consider what will happen in a perfect world. The sensor logs are examined. Various councils take ownership of signage issues. Road surface is all fixed up and the road is proudly pronounced "Bike Safe" and a shining example of how much the government cares. And then some squid or pretend Rossi will ride into the front of a camper van as he knew he could go fast. The road is safe.

[Berries]

This is far more than a mere video assessment of the road, the bike has computerized g-force meters, gyroscopes, you name it.

Its going to capture data on camber effects, line of sight issues specific to a motorcyclist (such as visual assessment of the exit line in a corner, is that tree/post/bus shelter poorly placed in the riders LOS) things that from a motorcycling perspective just cannot be measured from the car that they use for Kiwi Wrap
Don't take this the wrong way, but I do wonder what the information collected is going to achieve. Gyroscopes? I bet ten people riding the same SV in the same conditions will get different results. Entry speed, exit speed, corner speed, braking point, lane position, lean angle, tyres, trailing brakes, acceleration point, what’s for tea, how’s the dog, what’s the dog having for tea etc etc. Thousands of things affect the readings. G-force is much the same. Shit, I ride an SV thou and if I manage the same line twice in a week I'm happy.

While at first glance the video assessment sounds good, there are plenty of corners out there right now with trees on the inside that restrict through visibility that will never be cut down. They aren’t going to start chopping them down so mad bike riders can see the exit and go faster. That’s where things fall down to me. They can’t afford to fix things for cars, I don’t see how they are going to fix things for bikes.

While KiwiRAP only measured the roadside environment (which is a constant, unlike any measures driven by rider/driver inputs), NZTA already collect geometry and skid resistance across the whole state highway network on an annual basis. For instance they know the camber, superelevation and relative skid resistance of every 10m of the network. Call me a cynic, but I just cannot see what this data is going to be used for.


Do you really think the NZTA experts, (and I do mean EXPERTS) didn't think of that mate? the national Driving Standards manager is in behind this one.
You would hope so, seeing as he was on the original MSL committee. Unfortunately the things being measured are not related to driving standards but engineering. A whole different department needs to get behind this one if it is going to go anywhere after the bike is shipped back. You say it was their idea so I guess we shall see.

Just thoughts. Good luck with it all the same.

[StoneY]

Turns out I misunderstood the bike situation and where it came from
The Ozzie one was not shipped, we have kitted out a bike provided locally by a supportive industry entity. Saved a few grand that did!

Seriously all, the people running this have only got one aim, to improve our stats, and spend the money as wisely and frugally as possible.

I am still unhappy we get singled out you know, so when I was asked to be a part of this I went along to ensure that the money is not merely spent on telling you to wear a hi viz, and allowing some faceless bean counter to tick a 'job done' box while we all bleed from our wallet pocket.
I chose to be a part of this for my own reasons, and not to let some bean counter take control of the money we spend.

My own philosophy on these issues is somewhere between BRONZ and MAGs attitude's mixed with a pinch of Katmans messages.
I still think there is a lot to be learned about our roads, and this project will help in regards bike specific data capture regardless what has gone before.
I believe Charley lamb's data over and above any govt report as well, and trust me that gets some interesting discussion amongst the group
:yes:

However now I am on the MSAC I have to be seen to be supportive of the initiative, (which in all honesty I am).
The team I work with on the projects are passionate about motorcycle safety, all ride bikes, are well respected within the organizations they came into this from,(except maybe with the exception of myself lol) and are truly doing the best we collectively can to look after YOUR money.

Those who can should come meet us at Thames on Sunday, you can ask us the hard questions face to face, and I would dearly love to put some faces to the names here from the northern bunch of Kiwibikers.

[awa355]

Most people ride bikes for the thrill,challenge and freedom. Similarly, most people ride the Coro Loop, Rimutakas, South Island passes etc for the thrill and challenge. By all means remove risks such as surface defects but don't remove the reason for riding those great roads by changing their characteristics!

We will never have to worry about local authorities changing the overall characteristics of our roads. Unless they can find someone else to pay for it.

Personally, I believe that sweeping loose chips off all repairs, patches, alterations would go a big way towards increasing riding fun and safer roads.

After all, how much would it cost to run a tractor with a road sweep brush mounted, across any finished repairs.( compared to the cost of roadside mowers) All earthmoving co's have them. Should be a mandatory inclusion in any roading contract.

[Blackbird]

We will never have to worry about local authorities changing the overall characteristics of our roads. Unless they can find someone else to pay for it.

Personally, I believe that sweeping loose chips off all repairs, patches, alterations would go a big way towards increasing riding fun and safer roads.

After all, how much would it cost to run a tractor with a road sweep brush mounted, across any finished repairs.( compared to the cost of roadside mowers) All earthmoving co's have them. Should be a mandatory inclusion in any roading contract.

I hope that's the case because in terms of return on investment, I'd say that raising skill levels would offer a far higher return than dicking about with roads. That's why I'm a bit worried about where this first initiative is leading.

The people who maintain the Thames-Coromandel coast road do actually clean up behind them. It's just that their idea of pea-gravel clean-up is still dangerous for motorcyclists. I wrote to the council about contractual requirements last year and didn't even receive the courtesy of a reply.

[avgas]

Quick question.
Who said the roads were broke in the first place?

Also if they start taking corners out of coro like they did the gorge.......there will be blood in the streets. Literally as more hi speed squids slide down the road.

Everything about this initiative rubs me the wrong way.
How about discounts for cheaper riding gear?
Or free track days?

[StoneY]

Quick question.
Who said the roads were broke in the first place?


That was far from a quick question ... you raise 4 different issues each with a lengthy debate possible!

:msn-wink:

No one is saying the roads broken
But any road can be improved, and I will repeat it is a TEST case.... I take it you all know what a test case is?

And no one is saying take all the corners out either, this is more about looking for poor cambers, roadside obstacles threats that can be mitigated etc

There is not enough money in the fund to re-engineer roads, but we will be able to say 'hey you, local authority, tidy this up please' where we identify stuff that can be improved.

Cheaper riding gear? Put in your proposal but that's one that is unlikely to be treated seriously
If the track days are education related as opposed to 'let me do 200kmh down the back straight to let my testosterone flow' then yes, it would be considered.

Things like seriously slippery surfaces (moss, un necessary water runoffs not drained correctly) that can be improved are the kind of issue to be identified...all this noise about straightening corners out and assisting hi speed squids is not what this project is about at all

[Ocean1]

The people who maintain the Thames-Coromandel coast road do actually clean up behind them. It's just that their idea of pea-gravel clean-up is still dangerous for motorcyclists. I wrote to the council about contractual requirements last year and didn't even receive the courtesy of a reply.

I don't require mathematically perfect parabolic curves and seamless changes in surface COF to get me jollies, but I do insist that the bastards don't build booby traps. If you've been lulled into a false sense of security by half an hour of nice clean predictable roads and you hit some seriously dodgy soft shit right on the apex I think you've got a right to be a bit pissed.

If the roads are uniformly crap, (like on the east cape) I don't have a problem, if it's bad enough I'll take the KTM. It's the thoughtless, unprofessional repairs that represent a genuine danger to us that I believe need to be addressed. In spite of the current trend of blaming riders for everything I reckon a bit of education directed at the councils and roading contractors wouldn't be a bad spend.

[Ocean1]

all this noise about straightening corners out and assisting hi speed squids is not what this project is about at all

Who DOES want the corners gone? 'Cause they spend fucking truckloads on it every year.

The trucks under the load I'm pickin'...

[Smifffy]

In spite of the current trend of blaming riders for everything I reckon a bit of education directed at the councils and roading contractors wouldn't be a bad spend.

It's a trivial step linguistically to go from "Motorcyclists own the options" to "Motorcyclists own the blame".

Question:
Is saying "Hey mr local authority please fix this road" taking ownership of the problem?

[Ocean1]

It's a trivial step linguistically to go from "Motorcyclists own the options" to "Motorcyclists own the blame".

The first is tactful.


Question: Is saying "Hey mr local authority please fix this road" taking ownership of the problem?

Who gives a fuck, what matters is does it work?

The answer is no.

Although with a bit of research into the standards required of road surface quality, layout, signage and repair you could change that approach to "Hey mr local authority, why does this road not meet these here standards?"

Which also wouldn't work, but you'd have the satisfaction of knowing you were technically correct.

[scracha]

Ummm...is there a specific feedback form about the corto I'm missing on the motonz webby site or do I just put summit on their contact us form?

[StoneY]

Ummm...is there a specific feedback form about the corto I'm missing on the motonz webby site or do I just put summit on their contact us form?

The feedback forms will be available on the day at Thames mate. Pretty sure there will be a spot on the website after the event but not yet. Site is a work in progress but thanks for highlighting that for me to pass on to those in charge of the site

[Smifffy]

Ummm...is there a specific feedback form about the corto I'm missing on the motonz webby site or do I just put summit on their contact us form?

I'm not sure anyone reads submissions to the contact us form.

[StoneY]

I'm not sure anyone reads submissions to the contact us form.

Come on Smifffy........... the sites been live a week dude.

And as we are working hard to get this event done, which was a formal submission not just a general inquiry, it has all our focus this week.

Hope to meet you at Thames if you attend.
Brent

[Smifffy]

Come on Smifffy........... the sites been live a week dude.

And as we are working hard to get this event done, which was a formal submission not just a general inquiry, it has all our focus this week.

Hope to meet you at Thames if you attend.
Brent

I'm working 12 hr nights both Saturday & Sunday, so will defer to fatigue and not ride on the day. When my schedule allows I certainly intend to support such events, it sounds like a good day out.

I have ridden the loop recently, and at leisure, and as stated before my biggest problem with it is oncoming traffic in my lane, on several occasions on a single trip. I'm glad I have better roads to ride.

I'm curious as to why this road was chosen. Did it come from an analysis of the ACC 'statistics'? Was it because it's perceived as a nice road to ride, and would make for good PR, and get people involved? Both are worthy objectives, I just expect that there will be some degree of scientific method applied to these exercises.

If MotoNZ are able to achieve their prime objectives from this exercise what would happen? I.e. what is the desired outcome?

[StoneY]

I'm curious as to why this road was chosen. Did it come from an analysis of the ACC 'statistics'? Was it because it's perceived as a nice road to ride, and would make for good PR, and get people involved? Both are worthy objectives, I just expect that there will be some degree of scientific method applied to these exercises.

If MotoNZ are able to achieve their prime objectives from this exercise what would happen? I.e. what is the desired outcome?

NZTA identified a number of 'black routes' from crash stats, motorcycle black routes that is (no one wants to assume cause at this point tho)
The preferred one to hit first was the Rimutaka Hill.... but pointless with the major roadworks on the go.
Second highest score was this one

Outcome????...Well, it's a test case so we don't truly know yet.
Its an NZTA project we are backing and supporting is all I know at this point mate, so I really cant answer your question here and now on Kiwibiker.

I opened this thread to let you all know the event is happening, with due authority to make the post and invite Kiwibiker's along to take part.

I am on the Project Assessment team not the Comm's team so I loath to say more than I can/should/need to at this point.

Sorry you can't make it, but hopefully a few of the saner KB'ers show up on the day
Be nice to meet some of you there.

[Smifffy]

NZTA identified a number of 'black routes' from crash stats, motorcycle black routes that is (no one wants to assume cause at this point tho)
The preferred one to hit first was the Rimutaka Hill.... but pointless with the major roadworks on the go.
Second highest score was this one


Cool, that helps, thanks. Interesting that the worst routes are closest ones to major centres, perhaps we could correlate accident stats with lattes & hair gel (J/k)




Outcome????...Well, it's a test case so we don't truly know yet.
Its an NZTA project we are backing and supporting is all I know at this point mate, so I really cant answer your question here and now on Kiwibiker.


Given the website states that the money is to be spent wisely and effectively, it seems strange to me that there is no clear objective. How do you know if you have succeeded when you don't know what success looks like? Is this part of an overall strategy, or something that's just a great idea?



I opened this thread to let you all know the event is happening, with due authority to make the post and invite Kiwibiker's along to take part.


Thank you for doing so, again strange that there is no mention of this activity on the MotoNZ website (unless I missed the link?). All it would take is a link, since KB is already hosting the file. I'll go out on a limb and assume that those that signed onto the mailing list received an invite. Who else got invited, what is your target number of riders?



I am on the Project Assessment team not the Comm's team so I loath to say more than I can/should/need to at this point.

Won't it be difficult for your team to assess this project without an objective? For all of these teams, you seem to be the only one on the council talking with actual (and some web wannabe) bikers. I do hope that the comms team will eventually see fit to communicate the results of this with us.


Sorry you can't make it, but hopefully a few of the saner KB'ers show up on the day
Be nice to meet some of you there.

I'm sure most will be saner than I. Have fun and ride safe. I hope the weather is good to y'all, and that you get worthwhile data, that will help to both make the roads safer for us all and thence reduce our levy contributions.

I hope there's enough money in the budget to shout the council members a saussie and a beer each for all of their hard work, good to see them getting out there on their bikes.

[Smifffy]

So who went, and how was it?

[StoneY]

A few brave souls rode out in the awful weather, highlight for me was being able to yak with two chaps from Aussie who have been through this very process, and it was quite eye opening the changes they brought into roading standards in Vic as a result

Gripable surfaces applied to manhole covers, ensuring they are also flush with road surface

Sealing the entry zones of where gravel or muddy driveways/forest roads etc meet sealed roads

better drainage

Skid rails fitted to all armco barriers on known motorcycle popular routes to stop us sliding underneath, rubber buffers on WRB posts etc

I also wonder, if we had advertised the wonderful food we put on if we would have seen more turn up! I was fit to pop when we left the venue...............
Didn't help those willing to ride in the wet were largely at the cold duck...timing could have been better but hey.........

:niceone:

[avgas]

A few brave souls rode out in the awful weather, highlight for me was being able to yak with two chaps from Aussie who have been through this very process, and it was quite eye opening the changes they brought into roading standards in Vic as a result

Gripable surfaces applied to manhole covers, ensuring they are also flush with road surface

Sealing the entry zones of where gravel or muddy driveways/forest roads etc meet sealed roads

better drainage

Skid rails fitted to all armco barriers on known motorcycle popular routes to stop us sliding underneath, rubber buffers on WRB posts etc

I also wonder, if we had advertised the wonderful food we put on if we would have seen more turn up! I was fit to pop when we left the venue...............
Didn't help those willing to ride in the wet were largely at the cold duck...timing could have been better but hey.........

:niceone:
Shit you had food too!!!! I wouldn't have come for free food.

As for the guys from Aussie.......after they fixed all those probs in Victoria I imagine they got some really pussy knobs into Mcycling.
http://www.eons.com/images/members/2009/6/29/2/0/20529264214763658182_610w.jpeg

[StoneY]

Shit you had food too!!!! I wouldn't have come for free food.

As for the guys from Aussie.......after they fixed all those probs in Victoria I imagine they got some really pussy knobs into Mcycling.
http://www.eons.com/images/members/2009/6/29/2/0/20529264214763658182_610w.jpeg


LOL you troll....but yeah I gotta say had it recieved more publicity and wasnt conflicting with the Cold Duck, maybe.........more peeps?

I placed some jpegs of out takes from a PPT on their work they do
Cant remember what thread, but its all good stuff.
Once home I will try find some more good examples from the PPT or those who wanna see it just PM me for a copy, add an email address that can take 5meg attachments

Stuff they do for bikers specifically:
Sealing wider shoulder runoffs at corners we may overcook, skid rails on armco's, semi-mountable curbs/gutter systems, break-off PVC OR fold-over rubberized posts for signage mounts as opposed to metal or wooden posts, already proven to reduce fatalities of those who run off road and hit a sign.

CHEAP easy fixes that do NOT take all the corners out of roads, just makes the environment less deadly to us...

They were in fact quite opposed to straightening our gorgeous roads in the Coro (and they drove the loop a few times themselves) more into better signage, less deadly obstacles roadside, less 'run-noff' where wet (eg better drains) maybe cut the odd bank back a little for visibility.
Effectively the bloke I spent most time chatting to (the engineer lecturer) loved the coro loop road, but couldn't figure out the logic in where the road crews change seal types and all sorts of basic stuff that can be done far better.

They laughed at those low wooden rails beside the roads, they were 'like wtf is that for?' apparently those rails are no use at all, too far from road to be to able indicate road and its path (they call it delineation) and no use to stop a car, would flip a bike.... useless rails of wood that require annual painting etc... lol

They showed us a better way to mark the road edge, a better way to indicate tightening corners, some motorcycle specific safety signs that are not inflammatory or discriminatory but simply show, in a simple easy graphic that there are bike specific hazards on the section of road ahead.

They take these lessons into universities that the 3rd year grad students in civil engineering are about to graduate the course from, and drum the message home before the bad habits get formed in the workplaces they go to as well

We can learn a lot from these guys

[avgas]

How about putting sharp bits of broken glass on the side of the road, razer blades on the center line of double yellows and rusty nails sticking out of the armco barriers........to stop all the idiots out there who think riding like a moron is cool.

I mean there is learning..........and then there is THE LEARN
I have a feeling all that will be achieved is shiny new roads and little forethought on the moron on the handlebars (or behind the wheel).

[StoneY]

I have a feeling all that will be achieved is shiny new roads and little forethought on the moron on the handlebars (or behind the wheel).

Nope
Wrong again.
There is already stuff in the works for rider training and rider education

This is not going to be the only focus, but if you had been present for the blokes presentation on mitigating the factors created by roadside obstacles, you would have heard him explain we cant make the road 'idiot proof' but we can make it safer for those who make a genuine mistake on the odd corner, creating a 'MORE survivable environment'
he was also in favour of removing inspection hatches from roads....now there's a good idea!

You still cant cater for morons who do ridiculous speeds on public roads....there is no engineering to cater for that factor

[Pixie]

Do you really think the NZTA experts, (and I do mean EXPERTS) didn't think of that mate? the national Driving Standards manager is in behind this one.

This is far more than a mere video assessment of the road, the bike has computerized g-force meters, gyroscopes, you name it.

Isn't technology dazzling:woohoo:

It's a lot of expense to tell them that roadside shit,bad surfaces bad drivers and inexperience hurt bikers.

Typical modern day bullshit overload

[StoneY]

Isn't technology dazzling:woohoo:

It's a lot of expense to tell them that roadside shit,bad surfaces bad drivers and inexperience hurt bikers.

Typical modern day bullshit overload

Always a negative spin, got any other tunes to hum? Or do you only have one songbook?

If any of you had bothered fronting up on the day to hear the presentation the Road Engineers made you may find there is a lot that can be done to make this road more motorcycle friendly without spending sweet bugger all, or taking out the beloved twisties that make it such a great ride!

[awa355]

StoneY. Sounds like a lot of small things that can be done to make roads safer without taking away the corners or the fun. Lets hope some improvements come as a result.

I couldn't make it in the end, but as a rider, just want to say 'Thank you' for the effort you have put into this endeavour.

You seem to have taken a fair bit of abuse for trying to make a difference. Alot of riders do appreciate the efforts.

[Pixie]

Always a negative spin, got any other tunes to hum? Or do you only have one songbook?

If any of you had bothered fronting up on the day to hear the presentation the Road Engineers made you may find there is a lot that can be done to make this road more motorcycle friendly without spending sweet bugger all, or taking out the beloved twisties that make it such a great ride!

That's exactly my point.
They know what to do and don't need expensive bullshit and our money and time to do it.

[caseye]

Sorry I wasn't able to make it Stoney.Sounds like it was really miserable riding but hey that's the chance you take in Mid May!
Also sounds like things got talked about and like things might actually happen as a result.
Good work mate and thanks, the effort is appreciated and if real results come of this test then all is well and good.
Keep at it.

[StoneY]

That's exactly my point.
They know what to do and don't need expensive bullshit and our money and time to do it.

And I suppose that's the wisdom of some taxi driver that overheard someones discussion while carrying a fare again?

If the NZ road makers knew what to do already, why are so many of our roads dangerous obstacle courses by comparison to the standards set in Vic?

I will await your next consultation with the all knowing cabbie and you can enlighten me.
:lol:

[bogan]

Bit of a dredge, but was yarning to a guy who reminded me of this. Anyone heard anything more about it?

[Bassmatt]

Bit of a dredge, but was yarning to a guy who reminded me of this. Anyone heard anything more about it?

anybody heard anything at all regarding MSAC recently?

[White trash]

Bit of a dredge, but was yarning to a guy who reminded me of this. Anyone heard anything more about it?


anybody heard anything at all regarding MSAC recently?

Yeah. I've heard some stuff. As was expected, the MSAC wants nothing to do with free thinkers and is now becoming like every other Advisory Council to the government. What a fucking surprise.......

[bogan]

Yeah. I've heard some stuff. As was expected, the MSAC wants nothing to do with free thinkers and is now becoming like every other Advisory Council to the government. What a fucking surprise.......

Yeh that's what I hear too, but even so, that shouldn't exclude them from following through with a project they decided to do in the first place.

[avgas]

You guys ask for too much. First you don't want them to get paid. Then when they get paid you expect them to actually finish what they started. :facepalm:
We are just lowly NZ motorcyclist. We can't expect such amazing things from a paid council. Its much better to just keep paying them and stay quiet. So as to not get in trouble.
Who knows they might ask for more money if we complain too much.

[StoneY]

Well I was not happy at the 6 days notice situation but I had no say in that. Now I have no say in any of it.

Got meself sacked for daring to post to you lot on Kiwibiker.

What a crime.
Good work could be done by this council....much in fact.
I wish them luck.... but the moment I get told Hi-Viz will become a major expenditure of my levy money I will raise pure hell over it.

The right to choose, and freedom to wear your own version of appropriate gear (I go atgatt myself but each to own)

I no longer represent BRONZ, or am a member of the MSAC... it's good to be able to say what the fuck i want for the first time in a long time
:woohoo::yes:

[caseye]

Sad to hear that mate.
I really am.
Welcome back to the land of the mere mortal.

[2 wheel madness]

Hmmm.... nice provocative poster:innocent:

What's bad about the Coromandel Loop? Nothing, it's my home turf and it's bloody great. What's bad about some of the riders who go on the Loop? A lack of skills in reading conditions and riding appropriately, that's why bikes get binned and the blame gets laid on the road.

um... what he said

there are plenty of roads around that are pretty unforgiving in many various ways, i think there is much worse around than the coromandel loop, take a look at some of the roads around northland, awesome fun but got to keep your mind on the job

[riffer]

Its much better to just keep paying them and stay quiet. So as to not get in trouble.
Who knows they might ask for more money if we complain too much.

Ah, yeah, well, there's a problem with this too. Y'see us intransigent lot aren't paying enough registrations. Leading to a drop in expected revenue not only for ACC but also the MSAC.

So it looks like all they'll be able to afford this year is tea and bikkies for the councillors (and their salaries too). Certainly can't afford public communications.

But y'all keep safe out there. Especially those of you on those dangerous 600cc+ bikes eh?

[Bassmatt]

Fuck! Cnuts!!

[avgas]

Hmmmmm with Stoney out. Perhaps now is a good time to kick up a shit fight.
I am thinking about making McSAC public knowledge over the weekend.

Need to have a think about planning this a bit more tactically. While it would be easy to throw punches at all of Gareth's endeavors - its not very smart.

While Riffer is right, none of us are paying rego - so McSAC have limited income. I want that income to cost them personally.
i.e. "make damn sure you never work in this town again".

If anyone else is interested, or thinking along the same lines.....start a thread and let me know. I am not a group hug kinda guy....but would be good to consolidate information, create new arguments etc.

[Smifffy]

Gareth Morgan has a book and a tax reform package to promote.

I actually hit up their website the other day to see if there was anything i'd missed.

Nope.

Give em time eh?

Lying, cheating, thieving, lazy bastards!

[blackdog]

Gareth Morgan has a book and a tax reform package to promote.



Don't forget about a football team.

[StoneY]

Hmmmmm with Stoney out. Perhaps now is a good time to kick up a shit fight.
I am thinking about making McSAC public knowledge over the weekend.

Dude...it already is with a big blingybullshit corprorate website for you to talk to them on (good luck with that)


Need to have a think about planning this a bit more tactically. While it would be easy to throw punches at all of Gareth's endeavors - its not very smart.

No not smart at all as his own business is nothing to do with MSAC... my removal was for posting on this website...funny thing is, 3 of the dates quoted to the minister as my breaching the 'comms plan' were posts in THIS thread, on they ASKED me to place on here to get you all to one of their events!


While Riffer is right, none of us are paying rego - so McSAC have limited income. I want that income to cost them personally.
i.e. "make damn sure you never work in this town again".

If anyone else is interested, or thinking along the same lines.....start a thread and let me know. I am not a group hug kinda guy....but would be good to consolidate information, create new arguments etc.

I personally think if every rider in NZ simply refused to register their bikes then rode in groups too large for the cops to pull over the individuals for the fine, we would see some action all right

I always stated I was dead set against the levy increase BUT I supported the 30$ per bike for us bikers to spend on our own safety projects.

The best shit I saw go through the inboxes was the road engineering improvements in Vic... the rest was sheer noise and wanking on about hi viz and rider behaviour...

Even when faced with SOLID proof the numbers from NZTA nad ACC are wrong, shown examples of 250cc bikes entered as 2500cc's (in a sample of 50 that's a HUGE hit) they still sit too scared to upset the minister and make this pathetically greedy government see the truth.

Biggest problem is it's being treated as a business by a businessman.
Sliced into area's of individual responsibilities and god help anyone who's opinion differs from the attitudes of the curmudgeon in charge.
Still reckon I was only ever allowed on it because they thought having the BIKOI organiser involved would give it real street cred.....

Credibility = 0 now as far as I am concerned.

YOU guys are this councils stakeholders.... YOU guys are the ones who can protest the direction its moving in.
If I did it would sound like sour grapes now...so go for it AVGAS take a shot at them but your gonna need at least twice the numbers the BIKOI had to make them listen mate

[Bald Eagle]

twice the numbers the BIKOI had to make them listen mate


BIKOI II has a nice ring to it - :facepalm: bags not :dodge:

[sinfull]

but your gonna need at least twice the numbers the BIKOI had to make them listen mate Or ride to where we were suppose to dude and not roll over at the last minute !

[avgas]

Gareth Morgan has a book and a tax reform package to promote.

Don't forget about a football team.
Lot to lose then.

Good.

What about the others?

[avgas]

Dude...it already is with a big blingybullshit corprorate website for you to talk to them on (good luck with that)
I don't intend to feed them information. Only the public.

Biggest problem is it's being treated as a business by a businessman.
Sliced into area's of individual responsibilities and god help anyone who's opinion differs from the attitudes of the curmudgeon in charge.
Actually that is fantastic! and what I was hoping for. Makes my job easier. Its easy to attack a business, but difficult to hurt an association (trust me I have tried to highlight Greenpeace/Sally's corruption.......but I know better now).
Even better the fact it has governance issues.
Keep it coming.

[StoneY]

Even better the fact it has governance issues.
Keep it coming.

Hang on...I never said there is governance issue's, I said I did not like the direction....

. Big difference there, and mate they obviously didn't like me either....:nono:

I am over it.:bye:

[Big Dave]

Good effort anyway Stoney. Cheers.

Bike politics in NZ. Divided and conquered by its own hand.

[riffer]

Much as I like the idea of another Bikoi I don't think they'd actually allow it now.

And maybe that's the very reason why we should do another one. But this time I don't think we should be so nice. And I'm not the only one. And that's why I reckon they won't have a bar of it at Parliament. Besides, there's now no politicians at Parliament until after the election. So we'd need to disrupt them on the hustings... Hmmm. there's potential here.

[Katman]

Still reckon I was only ever allowed on it because they thought having the BIKOI organiser involved would give it real street cred.....


Hey, at least that's something you'll be able to tell your grandchildren - again.....and again.....and again.....




....and again.....

[Eyegasm]

Hey, at least that's something you'll be able to tell your grandchildren - again.....and again.....and again.....




....and again.....

Sounds familiar eh Katman? Keep saying the same stuff over and over, someone is bound to listen in the end...:facepalm:

[avgas]

Did some digging over the weekend.

Seems a certain leader will be joining politics soon. :facepalm:
And I thought Gareth was an economist????

Here is hoping his wife kicks his arse......otherwise kiss you right to ride goodbye people.

[StoneY]

Hey, at least that's something you'll be able to tell your grandchildren - again.....and again.....and again.....



Sounds familiar eh Katman? Keep saying the same stuff over and over, someone is bound to listen in the end...:facepalm:

Well ya know....... life can be ironic like that.

[Smifffy]

I hope for his sake he isn't counting on the motorcyclist's vote.



Did some digging over the weekend.

Seems a certain leader will be joining politics soon. :facepalm:
And I thought Gareth was an economist????

Here is hoping his wife kicks his arse......otherwise kiss you right to ride goodbye people.

[avgas]

I hope for his sake he isn't counting on the motorcyclist's vote.
counting.....he's assuming.

After all - who should we talk to about everything motorcycle related in NZ? Who is the head honcho of the only motorcycle association that represents ALL registered motorcycle riders in NZ?
Who is the spokes person for all motorcyclists in NZ?

Thats right - they same guy the press turns to when we need an "lord of all NZ economics". Don't be surprised that he also gets knighted soon also.

I warned you lot before, and I will warn you again......its going to get worse. Only because people are blind as to why Gareth sticks his hand up all the time.
"He's such as nice guy, I trust him with my money"
"He's such a nice guy, he should speak for all motorcyclists"
"He's such a nice guy, he should look after the Pheonix"

"He's such a nice guy, he should run the country"
How long do I have to cry wolf before you realize the bastard is already here.

[StoneY]

You wouldn't believe the cheek of these guys.
I get kicked off the council for using Kiwibiker.

An ACC official made an approach to me yesterday to inform me they wish to continue using my imagery on the flyers they hand out for rider training........... the ones they load up into the local cop cars and hand out at 'spot checks (rego checks grrr)'

Now I have no issue with the Ride Forever websites images, as that was a willing participation.
That's where the images they want to use were taken to be utilized originally.

But they used my image (and me mate Byron) a few months ago on flyers they were handing out at roadside rego checks disguised as 'a word with you about our new wonderful safety programs' and I copped some stick for that from a few mates but, ha wtf.

So yesterday they ask me if they can continue to use my images on the next round of flyers.....

Im like...wtf? Why?
I aint on their precious council anymore.....
I aint the leader of BRONZ Wellington anymore either....
Nothing to do with the Federation .... so why?

:gob:

So I say 'no'.........
And they say 'oh but you signed the model release etc'........
So I say 'are you aware how many people know of my speeding history, of the fact I have served two suspensions within 24 months, that I have xxx$ in fines on tick with the courts.... and you want me to be on your safety flyer? Good luck with that'

Watch this space LOL

[ajturbo]

god luck ..???

worth a try big boy..lol

[Maha]

''I get kicked off the council for using Kiwibiker''.


''I get kicked off the council for what I say on Kiwibiker''...:shifty:

[Smifffy]

We've done our dough. It's that simple. The McSAC was only ever going to be a puppet.

At least they've updated their website. 19 txts about shit. Whoop whoop!

[Blackbird]

At the risk of inviting scorn, no centralised body is ever going to fix a problem which largely comes down to individual responsibility. Whilst some small inroads can be made by improving roads, riding to the conditions always comes down to the rider.

The only way to stop getting screwed for ACC levies, road tax or whatever is to reduce accidents and the only way to do that is to ride smarter. I wonder out of the KB community, let alone the rest of NZ's motorcycling public, how many riders have bothered to take any formal roadcraft upskilling in (say) the last 2 or 3 years?

Katman might not exactly be diplomatic in the points he makes but that doesn't alter the fact that he's pretty much on the money about being responsible for our own well-being.:innocent:

[Smifffy]

At the risk of inviting scorn, no centralised body is ever going to fix a problem which largely comes down to individual responsibility. Whilst some small inroads can be made by improving roads, riding to the conditions always comes down to the rider.

The only way to stop getting screwed for ACC levies, road tax or whatever is to reduce accidents and the only way to do that is to ride smarter. I wonder out of the KB community, let alone the rest of NZ's motorcycling public, how many riders have bothered to take any formal roadcraft upskilling in (say) the last 2 or 3 years?

Katman might not exactly be diplomatic in the points he makes but that doesn't alter the fact that he's pretty much on the money about being responsible for our own well-being.:innocent:

I'd buy that IF the statistics didn't also include:


Off-road or trail accidents
Unlicensed/wrong class riders
Unregistered bikes
Accidents where an official investigation found another party primarily at fault
Accidents on stolen motorcycles
Accidents while fleeing police


AFAIC all of these contribute to the argument that motorcycling is unsafe, and yet leave the rest of us to carry the financial burden.

It may be pushing the point a bit far, but I believe a good case could also be made for adding excessive speed/alcohol to the list above too, since the motorcycle per se is not the root cause of the problem, and there is already a dedicated enforcement effort going on anyway.

If professional training is the answer then McSAC (I think I'll forever know them as that) could swing a deal whereby if when registerng your bike you could present a certificate from such a course dated within say the last 2 years you could qualify for a discount on the rego.

Can anyone tell me what the accident cost is to the country for correctly licensed riders, wearing the correct gear, sober and obeying the speed limits crashing on the road?

I do know of a few cases like that, but not many.

[Katman]

I'd buy that IF the statistics didn't also include:


Off-road or trail accidents




ACC's stats may include off-road accidents but I think you'll find that NZTA's stats are solely road accidents - the most damning of which is the one the says motorcyclists are involved in 10% of all road accidents while we only make up 2% of the road going fleet.

[bogan]

ACC's stats may include off-road accidents but I think you'll find that NZTA's stats are solely road accidents - the most damning of which is the one the says motorcyclists are involved in 10% of all road accidents while we only make up 2% of the road going fleet.

NZTA's stats include a number of unregistered bikes, as well as farm bikes. Location and type of bike are often all that is recorded, a honda accident on SH57 could be a firestorm, or it could be a quad just going between paddocks.

[Smifffy]

ACC's stats may include off-road accidents but I think you'll find that NZTA's stats are solely road accidents - the most damning of which is the one the says motorcyclists are involved in 10% of all road accidents while we only make up 2% of the road going fleet.

10% of all reported road accidents. I'd also posit that a detailed look at the statistics would also offer up more clues as to why this might be, rather than the politically advantageous reliance on correlating simple summary figures from mutually exclusive data sets.

The problem is that the statistics are not being used or analysed with a view to improving the process, they are simply being used to justify a pre-determined measure.

Surely of this 10% there must be more common factors than simply all of them involved motorcycles?

[Ocean1]

he's pretty much on the money about being responsible for our own well-being.:innocent:

So why did the government decide to take responsbility for it?

And then backpedal when faced with above-average risk groups?

And then fuck with the rules to cut costs not associated with mainstream claims?

Sounds to me like we're not being allowed to take responsibility for ourselves.

[Blackbird]

10% of all reported road accidents. I'd also posit that a detailed look at the statistics would also offer up more clues as to why this might be, rather than the politically advantageous reliance on correlating simple summary figures from mutually exclusive data sets.

The problem is that the statistics are not being used or analysed with a view to improving the process, they are simply being used to justify a pre-determined measure.

Surely of this 10% there must be more common factors than simply all of them involved motorcycles?

I agree that the statistics warrant closer scrutiny particularly in the light of Professor Lamb's findings (http://geoffjames.blogspot.com/2010/05/motorcycle-accidents-half-truths-and.html) but they can also be a red herring.

With the best will in the world, looking at statistics are going to have far less impact than getting off our collective arses and taking responsibility for raising our own riding standards.

[Katman]

NZTA's stats include a number of unregistered bikes, as well as farm bikes. Location and type of bike are often all that is recorded, a honda accident on SH57 could be a firestorm, or it could be a quad just going between paddocks.

NZTA's stats (as far as I'm aware) pertain to accidents on NZ's public roading system.

Yes, there may be the occasional farm bike accident on a public road but I think that in the overall scheme of things that number would be negligible.

[Blackbird]

So why did the government decide to take responsbility for it?

And then backpedal when faced with above-average risk groups?

And then fuck with the rules to cut costs not associated with mainstream claims?

Sounds to me like we're not being allowed to take responsibility for ourselves.

1. Because it's a nanny state, despite Labour not being in power and probably more accurately and correctly, they don't trust the motoring public to sort their own driving standards out.

2. Of course you can take responsibility for yourself, no-one is stopping you from raising your game.

[bogan]

With the best will in the world, looking at statistics are going to have far less impact than getting off our collective arses and taking responsibility for raising our own riding standards.

The problem there, is it's a bit of an open ended message. How do you identify those at risk, and how do you ensure they realise this and take corrective action.


NZTA's stats (as far as I'm aware) pertain to accidents on NZ's public roading system.

Yes, there may be the occasional farm bike accident on a public road but I think that in the overall scheme of things that number would be negligible.

Not necessarily, an accident at a motocross may simply record the road address, and bike manufacturer. How will it be classified from there?

I have discussed this at length a year or two ago with somebody who processes this stuff. Basically because it is an error in data entry, without re-gathering the data, the extent of it is unknowable. One might hazard a guess that the amount per rego we pay for this is in the same vicinity as the MSL.

[Katman]

Not necessarily, an accident at a motocross may simply record the road address, and bike manufacturer. How will it be classified from there?



Do NZTA collect their data from ACC records or from the NZ police records?

[Smifffy]

Do NZTA collect their data from ACC records or from the NZ police records?

IMO it is the ACC ministry pushing the levy, and they should be doing so with their own data that they collect themselves and for which can vouch stands up to inspection.

Instead anyone seeking to question the veracity of the supporting information is given the typical bureaucratic run around.

At least now you are questioning some aspects of the data instead of the old "Don't ride like a dick and you won't get stung with high fees"

Do you really believe that the rise in your levies is a fair reflection of your own riding style/skill?

[Blackbird]

The problem there, is it's a bit of an open ended message. How do you identify those at risk, and how do you ensure they realise this and take corrective action.

I hope you're not inferring that you don't feel the need for re-skilling or upskilling! I might have my tongue slightly in my cheek regarding that statement but the truth of the matter is that we are ALL at risk if we don't periodically get our skills checked by a competent 3rd party. As I mentioned in another post, I've ridden for 40+ years and considered myself "experienced". It wasn't until I joined the IAM this year and was evaluated against UK police motorcycle training standards that my ego came to understand the big difference between "experienced" and "advanced"! I think that identifies all of us!

[Katman]

IMO it is the ACC ministry pushing the levy, and they should be doing so with their own data that they collect themselves and for which can vouch stands up to inspection.


I'm specifically referring to NZTA's 2% v 10% figures mentioned earlier which as far as I'm aware stem from the NZ police records as opposed to any ACC records.



At least now you are questioning some aspects of the data instead of the old "Don't ride like a dick and you won't get stung with high fees"


When have I ever said that?



Do you really believe that the rise in your levies is a fair reflection of your own riding style/skill?

Why do you think I'm sick and fucking tired of motorcyclists riding in a manner that makes them an accident waiting to happen?

[bogan]

I hope you're not inferring that you don't feel the need for re-skilling or upskilling! I might have my tongue slightly in my cheek regarding that statement but the truth of the matter is that we are ALL at risk if we don't periodically get our skills checked by a competent 3rd party. As I mentioned in another post, I've ridden for 40+ years and considered myself "experienced". It wasn't until I joined the IAM this year and was evaluated against UK police motorcycle training standards that my ego came to understand the big difference between "experienced" and "advanced"! I think that identifies all of us!

I've yet to get to a training day, but I am certainly on the lookout for any potential improvements to be had.

So if you have identified that all bikers are at risk, how do you convince them to realise the same, and take corrective action?


Do NZTA collect their data from ACC records or from the NZ police records?

My conclusion are drawn from the CAS database, I believe police (and possibly others) are responsible for the data entered into this. I don't think we have ever been made aware of how ACC obtains their figures; unless there is a separate and more detailed form all injured must fill out I can't see how they could get more accurate figures.


I'm specifically refering to NZTA's 2% v 10% figures mentioned earlier which as far as I'm aware stem from the NZ police records as opposed to any ACC records.

Those ones are in the vicinity of what we found from NZTA figures as well. However for the 2008 year (last one I have) it is 3.1% and 10.1% From what I can tell, it has never been 2% and 10% in the same year. But the relative risk got close to 5x in the early 90s, which is the same result (with a little rounding) as a 2% 10% distribution.

[Ocean1]

1. Because it's a nanny state, despite Labour not being in power and probably more accurately and correctly, they don't trust the motoring public to sort their own driving standards out.

Can not you see the implication here? In offering to pay for our mistakes they must then either attempt to control our behaviour or fail to deliver on the promise of payment for some mistakes.

For that reason when ACC was first introduced I didn't believe it could work. And yet, for years it did, fueled by extremely reasonable charges and much improved economies of scale. It's taken a couple of decades, but the system finally sees the need to control our behaviour in order to manage it's spending.

The price is still very reasonable, I wouldn't mind paying more. But I decline to allow myself to be manipulated simply because my passtime carries a greater than average risk.


2. Of course you can take responsibility for yourself, no-one is stopping you from raising your game.

The point is moot, in fact it's not possible for anyone other than me to be responsible for my actions. Why, then should anyone else attempt to put a price on them?

[Blackbird]

Ocean,

I think we're pretty aligned in our thinking actually. If sections of the motoring public whether on 2 wheels, 4 or more become a burden on the taxpayer because of their actions, then the state must intervene in some form or other. In that respect, it's no different from controlling other forms of "antisocial" behaviour. I guess that it's also putting a price on an individual's behaviour. The real worry of course is when it becomes too heavy-handed.

However, I've said my piece, put my money where my mouth is and am doing some on-going training to lift my game.

[Smifffy]

That's really great, and my point is that you could do all of that, and more, but the next couple of years worth of squids coming through could still have your rego fee increasing unreasonably. Is that fair?

The other point is that the committee set up with theses funds to address the root cause, hasn't even identified a root cause, and so far has done SFA with the money allocated to them. As the thread title states, riding the loop was their first major project. I wonder what the budget was, and where the results are.

I notice since the esteemed biker's representative was slung off the committee for having the temerity to actually inform bikers of what was being done on their behalf, that the 'avid motorcyclist' from the AA has been quite quiet.


---snipped---

However, I've said my piece, put my money where my mouth is and am doing some on-going training to lift my game.

[Katman]

That's really great, and my point is that you could do all of that, and more, but the next couple of years worth of squids coming through could still have your rego fee increasing unreasonably. Is that fair?


So we've got two options......

a) Continue crying that life's not fair or.......

b) Go squid hunting.

[bogan]

So we've got two options......

a) Continue crying that life's not fair or.......

b) Go squid hunting.

b) is not really necessary, they aren't long lived creatures :innocent:

Your choice of words perhaps highlights the issue, it must be less about forcing your ideals on others, and more about encouraging others to see the dangers of their current approach, and the benefits of a little more awareness, skill, and restraint. Get down to the nuts and bolts stuff, line selection, entry vs exit speeds, visual scanning techniques. Too many safety campaigns start with thought inhibiting generalisations (speed kills etc), instead encourage thought, self reflection, and therefore responsibility. Unfortunately, the way the McSAC is going, they will be much more likely to come out with something stupid like wear high vis or else you will have an accident :facepalm:

[Smifffy]

As I said earlier, I think we've done our dough. What I object to is people telling me to improve my riding and the fees will come down. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN.

I acknowledge there's a problem and I don't think the McSAC is the solution, particularly the way they go about it.


So we've got two options......

a) Continue crying that life's not fair or.......

b) Go squid hunting.

[Katman]

10% of all reported road accidents. I'd also posit that a detailed look at the statistics would also offer up more clues as to why this might be, rather than the politically advantageous reliance on correlating simple summary figures from mutually exclusive data sets.

The problem is that the statistics are not being used or analysed with a view to improving the process, they are simply being used to justify a pre-determined measure.

Surely of this 10% there must be more common factors than simply all of them involved motorcycles?

How about, instead of bitching and moaning how unfair life is and how mean and nasty Nick Smith is, we address the issue of why such a large percentage of motorcycle accidents fall into the 'lost control on a corner' category.

[Katman]

As I said earlier, I think we've done our dough. What I object to is people telling me to improve my riding and the fees will come down. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN.

I acknowledge there's a problem and I don't think the McSAC is the solution, particularly the way they go about it.

Who cares if the fees don't come down?

If we collectively improve our riding and in so doing we save some lives, that should be reward enough.

(And it may help to avoid the fees going up again).

[StoneY]

How about, instead of bitching and moaning how unfair life is and how mean and nasty Nick Smith is, we address the issue of why such a large percentage of motorcycle accidents fall into the 'lost control on a corner' category.

Exactly what percentage Steve?
You're another one who eludes to knowing/understanding the numbers but show me your source...because there is NO reliable source on the numbers, its simple as that

Ask Charles Lamb, the data entry is as suspect as it gets. 2009 - 50 deaths - 7 of the entries were full of errors.

Actual real example of one of the errors:
2,500cc zzr Kawasaki's being entered as 'speeding' and 'at fault' when the 250cc Volvo 320 drove backwards over the motorbike as it (the Volvo) was backing out of its driveway.

Despite the driver of the 250cc Volvo being in reverse and hitting the motorcycle in the left side mid chassis while exiting the driveway backwards, the data entry clerk managed to ensure the information was entered with absolute accuracy....

After all, there is no way that bike was not speeding... they all do!
The driver surely would have seen any motorcycle traveling within the speed limit as he reversed down his driveway fast enough to totally run that 2500cc Kawasaki ZZR over, and kill the rider in the process....
But of course that 2500cc Kawasaki ZZR owner...he should have seen that coming right Steve? he should have looked through the tiny cracks between fence pailings and noticed that 250cc Volvo car racing in reverse for the exact point on the street he was about to ride through after crossing the speed bump he was currently passing over, right???? SKILLZ!

Funny thing is some back office dude who enters the data seems to have taken it on his own authority to correct the details the attending officer had written in the forms, I have copies of the report to prove that to.

You make me sick with your pathetic repetitive dribble Steve.

The numbers are fucked, and you still blow the same trumpet. There was NO justification for the raise in levy's, there is NO justification for the 601cc price jump either.
87% of all motorcycle accidents are 250cc bikes
enter just one of those in at 2,500cc's from a sample of 50, the whole picture changes.

When the data gets cleaned up (choke) and the prejudice against motorcycles is taken out of the equation, then try making your statements on what is the common causes and attempt to lay your blame.
Till then your just another idiot who believes the governments twisted figures.

The hope I had that this council would see through the govts bullshit is long gone.

[Katman]

Exactly what percentage Steve?
You're another one who eludes to knowing/understanding the numbers but show me your source...because there is NO reliable source on the numbers, its simple as that



Every single one of us could list countless instances of motorcyclists losing control on a corner (through no-one's fault but their own).

I don't need numbers to convince me that it's happening way too often.

[avgas]

Who cares if the fees don't come down?

If we collectively improve our riding and in so doing we save some lives, that should be reward enough.
Nah I would rather the opposite.
Drop my expenses and let more dumb bastards die.

Its a combination of Economics and Evolution that needs to be found.
Kill off the stupid, not prevent the poor from riding.

[Ocean1]

I don't need numbers to convince me

That's good. Because otherwise this:


list countless instances

would be a bit of a problem.

[Katman]

That's good. Because otherwise this:



would be a bit of a problem.

So what number is countless?

[Ocean1]

So what number is countless?

A very difficult one to incorporate in a list.

[StoneY]

So what number is countless?

The number that indicates your arrogance and stupidity ratio.
I believe that number is non existent, its a factor not a number..that factor is infinity (therefore your number on this score is infinite)