Hadron Collider - String Theory [Archive]

Usarka

10th May 2011, 20:46

This got some interest in the thread about fatty chicken fast food...... go figure!

So here's the link. It's only short, but signs of some pretty interesting shit going on. Man.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Scientists-develop-theory-to-explain-everything/tabid/1216/articleID/210470/Default.aspx

ps - i love the line at the end lolchickenburgerwithcheese

mashman

10th May 2011, 21:08

finally we'll have the answer to the how long is a piece of string question.

oneofsix

10th May 2011, 21:15

finally we'll have the answer to the how long is a piece of string question.

In which dimension? But first they have to determine how many dimensions there are and if the same piece of string passes through them all.
Ignorance is bliss :facepalm:

John_H

10th May 2011, 21:29

mashman

10th May 2011, 21:30

In which dimension? But first they have to determine how many dimensions there are and if the same piece of string passes through them all.
Ignorance is bliss :facepalm:

I'll be happy to know how long each piece is between each dimension. Then we can add the lengths together as we go :blink:

oneofsix

10th May 2011, 21:33

It's all really fascinating mind boggling stuff. I think part of what they are looking for is, when they smash the atoms together they can track the pieces and expect to see where they all go. If some pieces are missing they are assumed to have gone to another dimension!

Assume makes an ass out of u and me. But I guess this is where the real work starts, finding ways to prove where they went and track them to the other dimensions

Katman

10th May 2011, 21:35

So where's the fatty chicken fast food?

steve_t

10th May 2011, 21:44

I saw something on Discovery a few weeks ago saying 'String Theory' had been superceded by 'Superstring Theory' and then 'M Theory' with 11 or 12 different dimensions or summat. Unfortunately, my brain can't understand 12 dimensions :innocent:

Also, they talked about Black Holes but I can't remember what they said. I recall it being interesting though

oneofsix

10th May 2011, 22:00

I saw something on Discovery a few weeks ago saying 'String Theory' had been superceded by 'Superstring Theory' and then 'M Theory' with 11 or 12 different dimensions or summat. Unfortunately, my brain can't understand 12 dimensions :innocent:

Also, they talked about Black Holes but I can't remember what they said. I recall it being interesting though

ten fingers are a limitation :shutup:

atman
So where's the fatty chicken fast food?
threads / strings same thing aren't they? so if you pop through the dimensions to the other thread you will find the chicken.

steve_t

10th May 2011, 22:09

ten fingers are a limitation :shutup:

Oh man, I just remembered my toes! I should be good up to 20 now. Thanks :innocent:

Laava

10th May 2011, 22:09

That wasn't funny at all! I'm not going to watch Big Bang Theory anymore!

Big Dave

10th May 2011, 22:19

Oh - I know how to make shit stringy.

http://homepage.mac.com/david_cohen_design/.public/10pics2/stringy.jpg

mashman

10th May 2011, 22:22

Oh - I know how to make shit stringy.

http://homepage.mac.com/david_cohen_design/.public/10pics2/stringy.jpg

you realise your dog could be opening doors to other dimensions... intentionally or not, I dunno... it's been a while since I spoke dog

Mental Trousers

10th May 2011, 22:29

So where's the fatty chicken fast food?

They're going to use Double Downs in the LHC instead of Lead atoms because the Double Down is denser.

Mental Trousers

10th May 2011, 22:35

Oh man, I just remembered my toes! I should be good up to 20 now. Thanks :innocent:

Wait until he figures out he can count to 21 .....

Winston001

10th May 2011, 22:43

I saw something on Discovery a few weeks ago saying 'String Theory' had been superceded by 'Superstring Theory' and then 'M Theory' with 11 or 12 different dimensions or summat. Unfortunately, my brain can't understand 12 dimensions :innocent:

Supersymmetry, String Theory, and Gravity will all lead us one day to the GUT - the Grand Unified Theory which is the Holy Grail of physics. The theory which will connect the four forces - electromagnetism, the weak and strong nuclear forces, and gravity. Einstein got most of the way there but gravity doesn't yet fit.

I really do not understand this stuff but find it fascinating.

The Universe contains bubbles of matter which astrophysics regards as being in membranes. Galaxies are not scattered all over the place but instead concentrate in groups which scales down to the tiniest particles. Thus - and I could be wrong - Brane theory, M-theory and String Theory are all represented if we look hard enough at the Universe.

String Theory has up to 26 dimensions depending upon which mathematician you read, but the whole concept has been struggling for proof. Looks like the LHC has found something interesting at least.

mashman

10th May 2011, 22:50

Don't they have to find and "quantify" Dark Matter before they can prove string theory?

Mental Trousers

10th May 2011, 23:10

Don't they have to find and "quantify" Dark Matter before they can prove string theory?

Not necessarily. Proving String Theory narrows the number of possibilities for Dark Matter. By figuring out what everything is made from Scientists will have a better idea of what Dark Matter is.

Basically, if they can prove the what the building blocks are they can then put those blocks together and see what they make.

Big Dave

10th May 2011, 23:13

Not necessarily......Scientists will have a better idea of what Dark Matter is.

The power source of the Death Star, Oh be wan.

steve_t

10th May 2011, 23:17

Don't they have to find and "quantify" Dark Matter before they can prove string theory?

The isolated antimatter for over 16 minutes at CERN a few weeks ago IIRC. Way longer than previously isolated

mashman

10th May 2011, 23:57

Not necessarily. Proving String Theory narrows the number of possibilities for Dark Matter. By figuring out what everything is made from Scientists will have a better idea of what Dark Matter is.

Basically, if they can prove the what the building blocks are they can then put those blocks together and see what they make.

brings to mind a picture I saw today http://theatre.harvard.edu/archive/1997-fall/catch22/catch22.jpg

mashman

11th May 2011, 00:04

The isolated antimatter for over 16 minutes at CERN a few weeks ago IIRC. Way longer than previously isolated

I thought the idea behind Dark Matter was that it could be part of both, if not had to be part of both. Hazy memory of watching Horizon following some guys under a hillside, may have been CERN but I seem to remember Wales for some reason, and they had been searching for Dark Matter for 15 years. They said that Dark Matter passes through everything, and they hadn't captured it yet, and assumed that it was part of both anti-matter and matter. It was a long time ago though.

Mort

11th May 2011, 00:27

This is the best explanation of the multi-dimensional universe I've seen... The writer (Rob Bryanton) has a superb blog if yer in to this stuff.

XjsgoXvnStY

Mental Trousers

11th May 2011, 09:05

I thought the idea behind Dark Matter was that it could be part of both, if not had to be part of both. Hazy memory of watching Horizon following some guys under a hillside, may have been CERN but I seem to remember Wales for some reason, and they had been searching for Dark Matter for 15 years. They said that Dark Matter passes through everything, and they hadn't captured it yet, and assumed that it was part of both anti-matter and matter. It was a long time ago though.

Problem is that nobody is actually sure what Dark Matter is, only that there's something out there that totals significantly more than the visible/accountable mass of galaxies etc. Using Newton's laws some clever buggers figured out that there isn't enough visible/accountable mass to hold the Universe together, so Galaxies, Clusters, Super Clusters etc should have all disintegrated a long time ago.

I guess those guys are looking for what they believe Dark Matter to be, which may or may not be a widely held view.

Swoop

11th May 2011, 09:10

... 'String Theory' had been superceded by 'Superstring Theory'
So.

More like a "Cord" theory, or perhaps a "rope" theory then?

nodrog

11th May 2011, 09:16

String theory is easy to understand. Basically if you see one, theoretically it is blowjob week.

mashman

11th May 2011, 09:16

I guess those guys are looking for what they believe Dark Matter to be, which may or may not be a widely held view.

heh, or may not even exist if String Theory is correct.

Hoon

11th May 2011, 11:49

Wow ...a string theory thread on KB! I'm no Quantum Physicist - all my subject knowledege is gained entirely from the Discovery Channel, however I do watch a lot of Discovery Channel.

The Hadron Collider is awesome. Even more awesome is that I didn't have to pay for it. The expense and effort those nerds have gone to to create something like this speaks volumes of its importance and potential to benefit the human race.

If it brings us closer to understanding the universe and how things work, it'll fastrack other breakthroughs like quantum computing, energy production and better materials. The human race is nothing but a blink in the life of the universe. However if we are able to get off this planet and colonize space then we have pretty much guaranteed our survival for as long as the universe is around - maybe even longer.

Me...I'm still waiting for my flying car.

Big Dave

11th May 2011, 11:57

Wow ...a string theory thread on KB! I'm no Quantum Physicist - all my subject knowledege is gained entirely from the Discovery Channel, however I do watch a lot of Discovery Channel.

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/THNPmhBl-8I?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Edbear

11th May 2011, 12:08

.............

avgas

11th May 2011, 12:19

If some pieces are missing they are assumed to have gone to another dimension!
with all the left socks and 10mm sockets

avgas

11th May 2011, 12:38

I thought the idea behind Dark Matter was that it could be part of both, if not had to be part of both. Hazy memory of watching Horizon following some guys under a hillside, may have been CERN but I seem to remember Wales for some reason, and they had been searching for Dark Matter for 15 years. They said that Dark Matter passes through everything, and they hadn't captured it yet, and assumed that it was part of both anti-matter and matter. It was a long time ago though.
Depends entirely if you are talking hot, cold or warm dark matter. (no I am not joking).

Basically means they don't know shit are are trying to put terms to things they are yet to understand. So far the only measured recording of "dark matter" has been gravitational pull. Which supposedly is actually and affect of antimatter too.......

Hadron Collider (and all its successors) are scary but exciting concepts. Especially when you think of the maths behind black hole theory.......sometimes proving something right is not always the best option

bogan

11th May 2011, 12:41

This is the best explanation of the multi-dimensional universe I've seen... The writer (Rob Bryanton) has a superb blog if yer in to this stuff.

that hurt my head a little bit, but was the most understandable one I've seen.

I love the LHC's scientific method too, can't remember where I read it, but basically they plan to just smash shit at higher and higher energies until they get some answers.

Big Dave

11th May 2011, 12:51

The Theory extrapolates till the 42nd dimension where it's revealed that all other dimensions are actually ideas inside Douglas Adam's brain.

mashman

11th May 2011, 14:43

Depends entirely if you are talking hot, cold or warm dark matter. (no I am not joking).
:shit:, what about lukewarm :shifty:

Basically means they don't know shit are are trying to put terms to things they are yet to understand. So far the only measured recording of "dark matter" has been gravitational pull. Which supposedly is actually and affect of antimatter too.......

That clears up why they call it String Theory.

Hadron Collider (and all its successors) are scary but exciting concepts. Especially when you think of the maths behind black hole theory.......sometimes proving something right is not always the best option

An alternative being?

Winston001

11th May 2011, 21:13

Just to confuse matters, astrophysicists are not only looking for Dark Matter but also for Dark Energy which is quite different. Current estimates are that Dark Energy contains 73% of the energy in the Universe.

Dark Matter by comparison (if it exists at all) contains over 80% of the total mass of the Universe.

Dark Energy is evidenced by Vacuum Energy derived from the Cosmological Constant, where particles pop in and out of existence in the vacuum of space. Alternatively Dark Energy comes from Scalar Fields but TBH I'm lost at this point.

One thing which is missing from observations is anti-matter. Some think Dark Matter contains it but others think anti-matter was mostly annihilated shortly after the Big Bang. Why? Short answer - quantum fluctuations.

Winston001

11th May 2011, 21:22

The arguments for Dark Energy and Dark Matter are based upon the observed gravitational attractions of galaxies wheeling around each other. Conventional physics requires all of this stuff to eventually smash together - but it isn't.

Instead the Universe is expanding and more surprising, that expansion is accelerating. So something must be pushing it.

Dark Matter explains the gravitational movements we see within the bubbles in the Universe. The unseen mass provides the extra gravity required to explain the amount of attraction.

Dark Energy by contrast explains why the Universe is expanding and accelerating apart - something which requires heaps of energy.

But just to confuse matters - what if time in our local galaxy was slowing down? Everything outside would speed up and appear to accelerate. That could yet be the simple answer to a puzzle that has us stumped.

Milts

11th May 2011, 22:04

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/brian_greene_on_string_theory.html

mashman

11th May 2011, 22:13

Dark Energy is evidenced by Vacuum Energy derived from the Cosmological Constant, where particles pop in and out of existence in the vacuum of space. Alternatively Dark Energy comes from Scalar Fields but TBH I'm lost at this point.

I'm assuming that they're talking about an Infinite Improbability Drive :blink:.

I do wonder if a temporary change of element state and/or composition takes place... enough to excite the element(s) (maybe more than 1 elemental reaction required based on a composition/type/velocity/mass etc... of neighbouring elements) into such a frenzy that human beings are unable to detect the "change", or measure the velocity... yet.

steve_t

11th May 2011, 22:18

I'm assuming that they're talking about an Infinite Improbability Drive :blink:.

LOL. This thread is too geeky. When God disappeared in the puff of smoke because of the BabelFish, all information about the universe was lost :facepalm: 42!

Mental Trousers

11th May 2011, 22:59

One thing which is missing from observations is anti-matter. Some think Dark Matter contains it but others think anti-matter was mostly annihilated shortly after the Big Bang. Why? Short answer - quantum fluctuations.

The mega-geeks have calculated that 99% of everything was annihilated in the big bangs matter/anti-matter explosion, leaving us with the matter that exists today and the occasional tiny spec of anti-matter. This is a matter based universe (instead of an anti-matter universe) because there was a tiny variation in the amount of matter/anti-matter at the beginning of everything.

The question I have is, where did all that energy from the 99% of stuff being annihilated go??

avgas

12th May 2011, 10:18

An alternative being?
http://www.obsessedwithfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Midgets-vs-Mascots-1.jpg

avgas

12th May 2011, 10:35

I do wonder if a temporary change of element state and/or composition takes place... enough to excite the element(s) (maybe more than 1 elemental reaction required based on a composition/type/velocity/mass etc... of neighbouring elements) into such a frenzy that human beings are unable to detect the "change", or measure the velocity... yet.
Lorentz (sp....don't have time to google) theorized that while a small change will affect something else on a massive scale (aka butterfly effect), that perhaps it would go to such a scale that it would almost go unnoticed.
In one of his experiments he actually proved it (sort of) as he punched what was thought to be a chaotic string into a "computer" (HP's weather calculator from recall) and its final resultant had a value that came out as unknown. The resultant should have come out on screen - but the value for some unknown reason went well above the maximum amount of digits the computer could handle. When he looked at all previous results.....turns out they all had this problem.....but had been dis-guarded as "bugs" or "errors". But held more value than the rest of the data.......
It was human logic to remove the data that didn't match.

We still haven't learn't lessons though - ever wonder why we always have el nino weather cycles and "freak" storms?????
Lorentz's work still is not taught in most classes. Yet many things were explained by Lorentz, Mandlebrot and many others decades ago. And proven........

but alas I digress once again.
Collider - awesome smashy thing that will tell us whats in between the parts in atoms. Very handy because when you thing of the fact that there is not much in an atom, and yet they have a perceived volume........we could all fall apart / disappear if we are not too careful :) Thank goodness for charge.
Non-linear science is awesome

Big Dave

12th May 2011, 12:30

The question I have is, where did all that energy from the 99% of stuff being annihilated go??

Punk Rock.

mashman

12th May 2011, 14:01

Lorentz (sp....don't have time to google) theorized that while a small change will affect something else on a massive scale (aka butterfly effect), that perhaps it would go to such a scale that it would almost go unnoticed.
In one of his experiments he actually proved it (sort of) as he punched what was thought to be a chaotic string into a "computer" (HP's weather calculator from recall) and its final resultant had a value that came out as unknown. The resultant should have come out on screen - but the value for some unknown reason went well above the maximum amount of digits the computer could handle. When he looked at all previous results.....turns out they all had this problem.....but had been dis-guarded as "bugs" or "errors". But held more value than the rest of the data.......
It was human logic to remove the data that didn't match.

We still haven't learn't lessons though - ever wonder why we always have el nino weather cycles and "freak" storms?????
Lorentz's work still is not taught in most classes. Yet many things were explained by Lorentz, Mandlebrot and many others decades ago. And proven........

Non-linear science is awesome

heh... I removed the butterfly effect from my last post... funny to see it appear here :shit: (:shifty: :rofl:).

I much prefer the notion of non-linear science, kind of explains why the brainiacs with large chemistry sets can't proove things beyond a doubt in some cases... you may get close, but you'll never know for sure... I kinda hope that loss of mass that they're looking to reconcile is just light. That'd crack me up.

Madmax

12th May 2011, 15:24

with all the left socks and 10mm sockets
The 10mm sockets allways go to the bottom of the toolbox
or the floor!
mabey its the answer to gravity

:blink:

Winston001

15th May 2011, 13:32

The mega-geeks have calculated that 99% of everything was annihilated in the big bangs matter/anti-matter explosion, leaving us with the matter that exists today and the occasional tiny spec of anti-matter. This is a matter based universe (instead of an anti-matter universe) because there was a tiny variation in the amount of matter/anti-matter at the beginning of everything.

The question I have is, where did all that energy from the 99% of stuff being annihilated go??

Excellent question. :woohoo: What if very little anti-matter came out of the Big Bang in the initial moments? We assume equal amounts of matter/anti-matter but that could be wrong. After all, we'd also expect a Universe with matter spread thinly throughout it but instead we've got lumpy bits collected in membrane-like regions with incomprehensibly empty space in between.

So maybe anti-matter just wasn't a goer due to an early quantum flipflop? That means no energy was lost in later annihilation.

puddytat

15th May 2011, 15:21

Mental Trousers

15th May 2011, 15:42

It all sounds rather dodgey to me....better we spend money on the reality we know thats planet Earth rather than chasing Galactic rainbows that we'll never get to...
I have aproblem with the ammount of money being spent on extraterestrial extravagance when we seemingly dont have enough to even start solving some of our problems here.

That's a bit short sighted if you ask me. Improving what we have is always an effect of a better understanding of how things work. Modern motorbikes are an example. As designers and engineers have learnt more the designs and performance of bikes improves. Many of the materials in them are directly derived from aerospace and space programmes.

Everything we have and use in every day life came, indirectly, from research programmes with far reaching goals like how the universe works.

Geeen

15th May 2011, 17:19

This thread is fascanating. I have a basic understanding of what you lot are going on about. Isnt " What If?" an awesome question.

mashman

15th May 2011, 18:18

:shifty:

That's a bit short sighted if you ask me. Improving what we have is always an effect of a better understanding of how things work. Modern motorbikes are an example. As designers and engineers have learnt more the designs and performance of bikes improves. Many of the materials in them are directly derived from aerospace and space programmes.

Everything we have and use in every day life came, indirectly, from research programmes with far reaching goals like how the universe works.

Oh I dunno, I'd say he has a very valid point. Because it seems like you're saying that we wouldn't have had the design and engineering advances that we have if there hadn't been Aerospace and Space Programmes? It would have been the same space superbrains working on the same "materials" but for the specific purpose of mankind. Not just working towards the SINGLE goal of getting a craft into space, but designing and building highly efficient power sources, designing and building "self sustaining" houses that could easily withstand large earthquakes, design and build machines that could recycle just about every material that we waste (computers, fridges, TV's etc...) and many many more most likely. But why bother when we could go into space, or builder a faster motorcycle... that's a very simple truth of the matter. Oh, and the waste of money :rofl:.

And puddytat is short sighted? Poppycock Sir. The materials we have would have still been created... and most likely would have come out quicker than they currently do

Oh, and you forget the minds and billions that go into War research programmes too :yes:... but that's ok, because it gives us robotics, advanced tracking systems etc... in return :blink: