Secret abortions for under 18s? Good shit.

[superman]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5005497/Schools-arrange-secret-abortions

It's sad how many people treat teenagers even at the age of 16 as though they own them and get to make all the decisions for them.

This lady honestly needs to pull her head in, if her daughter was uncomfortable telling her mum then she needs to realise that she's put the relationship in a state where the daughter isn't willing to communicate. Be pissed off at yourself, not at the law there to protect your daughter.

[SMOKEU]

The last thing we need in this world is more unwanted kids who are going to be raised by a crack whore.

[Lurch]

The last thing we need in this world is more unwanted kids who are going to be raised by a crack whore.

The last thing we need is more teenagers thinking that they have an 'easy' way out in case they get pregnant.

[superman]

The last thing we need is more teenagers thinking that they have an 'easy' way out in case they get pregnant.

I agree with that, abortion law in NZ is stupid.

I think you can abort 20 weeks in (the feminists at uni think this isn't long enough). Babies can live from 20 weeks in some cases!!!!

And you have to either be very very stupid or get raped to become pregnant. The symptoms show pretty quickly when pregnancy has occurred, so 20 weeks?! Fuck off. No one should need that amount of time.

[yungatart]

And in any other instance where there is a need for surgery the consent of the parent/s or legal guardians is required by law.
Why should abortion be any different?

[SMOKEU]

The last thing we need is more teenagers thinking that they have an 'easy' way out in case they get pregnant.

It's a hell of a lot better than having even more sluts breeding like rabbits when they can't even afford to feed themself.

"Put the dick down, and get a phucking job."

[yachtie10]

And in any other instance where there is a need for surgery the consent of the parent/s or legal guardians is required by law.
Why should abortion be any different?

Absolutely: but i cant help thinking if they want to deny it they should be taking full responsibility for the upbringing of the child.

As for the other redneck comments
whether or not to have a child is up to the parents not anyone else who thinks he speaks for all

[Hitcher]

Let's not forget that most people who receive abortions are aged 32 and more. Abortion isn't a panacea for careless, randy teen females. Indeed a proportion of those CRTFs eschew the "careless" and deliberately seek pregnancy as a career option.

[Hitcher]

whether or not to have a child is up to the parents not anyone else who thinks he speaks for all

"He"? Tsk.

[superman]

And in any other instance where there is a need for surgery the consent of the parent/s or legal guardians is required by law.
Why should abortion be any different?

If you are aborting around 4 weeks or earlier you can usually just take a drug. As with going on the pill, this does not require parental consent.

The point of consent with surgery is people can die and you don't want a legal battle with parents. You think 16 year-olds can't make rational decisions? I think the rate of deaths with abortion is 0.2-1.2 per 100,000, it is an issue which only the mother harbouring the foetus should be able to choose. As soon as a teenager is put into a situation such as that, they can be very reasonable and rational with their choices. To say parents consent is necessary would absolutely demean the teenagers own choices, and no doubt if the parents didn't agree with the teenagers opinion would cause all sorts of mental issues and anguish through the rest of their lives. As for the non-teenage pregnant 11-12 year olds... well surely you wouldn't expect them to have a child.

Surely you are not so zealous for control to suggest if you had a pregnant 16 year old daughter you should be the one with the right to choose if she has an abortion or not?! Most parents would agree with the kids decision, but some wouldn't. And the law is to protect those people.

[yachtie10]

"He"? Tsk.

all right
but i was referring to the comment makers

[Goblin]

And you have to either be very very stupid to get pregnant, or get raped.

WTF??? Care to elaborate? Dunno if I'm just reading this in the wrong context but WTF?

[superman]

WTF??? Care to elaborate? Dunno if I'm just reading this in the wrong context but WTF?

There is the contraceptive pill, condoms, injection (using the pill and condom together would mean the chances of getting pregnant are 0.001% I think?). So yes... if you are having sex consensually and get pregnant you are very very stupid or so very unlucky to fall in the 0.001%. Or you wanted to get pregnant knowing full well it could happen. And don't really need to explain why rape can cause pregnancy.

[Goblin]

There is the contraceptive pill, condoms, injection (using the pill and condom together would mean the chances of getting pregnant are 0.001% I think?). So yes... if you are having sex consensually and get pregnant you are very very stupid or so very unlucky to fall in the 0.001%. Or you wanted to get pregnant knowing full well it could happen. And don't really need to explain why rape can cause pregnancy.I'm well aware of contraception, Now you need to explain why a girl would have to be stupid to get raped.

[yachtie10]

WTF??? Care to elaborate? Dunno if I'm just reading this in the wrong context but WTF?

No you have it right
maths is not his strong point
but judgeing others is

(or am I judging him harshly?)

[superman]

I'm well aware of contraception, Now you need to explain why a girl would have to be stupid to get raped.

What? My post says you either have to be "very very stupid, or get raped". OR get raped. Sorry for the confusion??? :blink:

Oh I finally see how it can be read the way you said. Ok I'll change that around, I typed that in a confusing manner my bad!

[Geeen]

And you have to either be very very stupid to get pregnant,

Paraphrasing I know, But seriously?? :facepalm:

[Goblin]

What? My post says you either have to be "very very stupid, or get raped". OR get raped. Sorry for the confusion??? :blink:

Ok, I did read it wrong. Seems so wrong for a guy to have these views when it takes a guy to get a girl pregnant. The guy has to be just as stupid imo.
Dont know about now days but it used to 12 weeks gestation max for a termination, more if there were major deformities in the foetus.

[superman]

Ok, I did read it wrong. Seems so wrong for a guy to have these views when it takes a guy to get a girl pregnant. The guy has to be just as stupid imo.
Dont know about now days but it used to 12 weeks gestation max for a termination, more if there were major deformities in the foetus.

Yeah I got the 20 weeks straight out of this weeks special feminist magazine at uni.

The dude is definitely just as responsible for what happens.

[superman]

Paraphrasing I know, But seriously?? :facepalm:

Umm... do I seriously think you have to be completely dumb to get pregnant when you are taking part in consensual sex? Yes. There's no good reason to "accidentally" get pregnant anymore.

[Goblin]

Yeah I got the 20 weeks straight out of this weeks special feminist magazine at uni.

The dude is definitely just as responsible for what happens.
Just as responsible or just as stupid?

[superman]

Just as responsible or just as stupid?

Both :yes:

[hellokitty]

Umm... do I seriously think you have to be completely dumb to get pregnant when you are taking part in consensual sex? Yes.

No contraception is 100% foolproof.
(except a hysterectomy - but that isn't done for contraceptive purposes)

[superman]

No contraception is 100% foolproof.
(except a hysterectomy - but that isn't done for contraceptive purposes)

Yeah I know... but the chances are sooo low if say you are using a condom and the contraceptive pill together.

[hellokitty]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5005497/Schools-arrange-secret-abortions

It's sad how many people treat teenagers even at the age of 16 as though they own them and get to make all the decisions for them.

This lady honestly needs to pull her head in, if her daughter was uncomfortable telling her mum then she needs to realise that she's put the relationship in a state where the daughter isn't willing to communicate. Be pissed off at yourself, not at the law there to protect your daughter.

My friend's 14 year old daughter came home and said she was pregnant by her 37 year old married neighbour. She had been to the doctor and had been told that it was her right to have this baby. No one had any right to tell her that she couldn't have this baby. :facepalm:
The baby was taken off her and bounced from foster home to foster home, as this 14 year old child couldn't raise a baby.
But the important thing was that this 14 year old her rights respected :sick: to hell with the poor baby....

what a fucking mess

[Geeen]

Umm... do I seriously think you have to be completely dumb to get pregnant when you are taking part in consensual sex? Yes. There's no good reason to "accidentally" get pregnant anymore.

How about those Women ( like my Wife ) who cant take the pill because it causes blood clots or all the side effects of pregnancy like vomiting, weight gain etc. Or those who are allergic to the spermicides on condoms.

[Lurch]

My friend's 14 year old daughter came home and said she was pregnant by her 37 year old married neighbour. She had been to the doctor and had been told that it was her right to have this baby. No one had any right to tell her that she couldn't have this baby. :facepalm:
The baby was taken off her and bounced from foster home to foster home, as this 14 year old child couldn't raise a baby.
But the important thing was that this 14 year old her rights respected :sick: to hell with the poor baby....

what a fucking mess

Oooh yeah live a tough life or get killed in the womb, I know if I was a baby which one I'd be picking!

I mean everyone would rather die am I rite?

[superman]

How about those Women ( like my Wife ) who cant take the pill because it causes blood clots or all the side effects of pregnancy like vomiting, weight gain etc. Or those who are allergic to the spermicides on condoms.

Also can't take that injection?

Wow... that sucks.

Allergic to condoms? I have a friend allergic to latex... he informs me you can buy silk condoms.

There are natural products which aid contraception (some are very effective) also which our ancestors used hundreds/thousands of years ago.

[hellokitty]

How about those Women ( like my Wife ) who cant take the pill because it causes blood clots or all the side effects of pregnancy like vomiting, weight gain etc. Or those who are allergic to the spermicides on condoms.

I cant take the pill either - went on the injection which turned me into a complete psycho bitch.
Being a psycho bitch is a form of contraception in itself...

[hellokitty]

Oooh yeah live a tough life or get killed in the womb, I know if I was a baby which one I'd be picking!

I mean everyone would rather die am I rite?

Yeah, being raised by a child with a sub normal intellect and then bouncing from foster home to foster home being sexually abused - thats a good choice.
Its all good though - she went on to have more kids..... more kids that were taken off her too...

[superman]

Yeah, being raised by a child with a sub normal intellect and then bouncing from foster home to foster home being sexually abused - thats a good choice.
Its all good though - she went on to have more kids..... more kids that were taken off her too...

Some people should be taken out back...

[hellokitty]

Some people should be taken out back...

Yup!
Amazing really that no one thinks of adoption any more.... having been in this situation as a teenager when a young friend became pregnant - she adopted her kid out - of course it was hard,but in her situation the pain of adoption was easier than the guilt of abortion. She has regular contact and her kid is now 20 and was raised by a wonderful couple who cherished her.

[Goblin]

My friend's 14 year old daughter came home and said she was pregnant by her 37 year old married neighbour. She had been to the doctor and had been told that it was her right to have this baby. No one had any right to tell her that she couldn't have this baby. :facepalm:
The baby was taken off her and bounced from foster home to foster home, as this 14 year old child couldn't raise a baby.
But the important thing was that this 14 year old her rights respected :sick: to hell with the poor baby....

what a fucking messShe should have been sterilized and he castrated! :sick:

[Geeen]

Also can't take that injection?

Wow... that sucks.

Allergic to condoms? I have a friend allergic to latex... he informs me you can buy silk condoms.

There are natural products which aid contraception (some are very effective) also which our ancestors used hundreds/thousands of years ago.

All good suggestions, but how many 11 - 16 year old girls are comfortable telling their parents that they are having sex let alone talking about holistic contraception? A lot of Parents would would either go in to denial or try and enforce abstinence. Neither reaction is very helpfull. I hope that when my daughter get to this age group she can talk to us about these sort of things. At the end of the day we have to trust that we've raised to to think about what she is doing and make decisions that are right for her. The same goes for alcohol, we are trying to teach her that is just another drink. You drink it because you like the taste and not to get shitfaced. Peer pressure is a powerfull thing and so is the desire to conform, its a rare person in that age group who can go against the group mentality.

Man I ramble...:shutup:

[Hitcher]

No contraception is 100% foolproof.
(except a hysterectomy - but that isn't done for contraceptive purposes)

Be careful not to confuse contraception with sterilisation. Big difference.

[hellokitty]

Be careful not to confuse contraception with sterilisation. Big difference.

well obviously.....

[superman]

All good suggestions, but how many 11 - 16 year old girls are comfortable telling their parents that they are having sex let alone talking about holistic contraception? A lot of Parents would would either go in to denial or try and enforce abstinence. Neither reaction is very helpfull. I hope that when my daughter get to this age group she can talk to us about these sort of things. At the end of the day we have to trust that we've raised to to think about what she is doing and make decisions that are right for her. The same goes for alcohol, we are trying to teach her that is just another drink. You drink it because you like the taste and not to get shitfaced. Peer pressure is a powerfull thing and so is the desire to conform, its a rare person in that age group who can go against the group mentality.

Man I ramble...:shutup:

That's good stuff! I hope to be a very reasonable parent some day just like you seem to be.

My parents invoked the alcohol is a drink for taste from when I was only little, they are both Swiss so I got a good sense of what wines to combine with what cheeses. The best spirits to settle your taste-buds and stomach after a heavy cheese fondue :bleh: Pretty much the typical central European view of alcohol and it's combination with fooooood. Nom nom.

The thing was all the friends from my school all had a very similar upbringing (private school :shutup:). However my gf and her friends are prone to drinking for getting shitfaced (why? All their parents seem to do it...), I don't think there's one form of alcohol my gf likes the taste of... :facepalm: The drinks are all "cover up the alcohol part" RTDs....

I think education and a good sense of communication with parents is key. :yes:

My mother funnily enough is completely against abortion. Though I think that's completely due to past miscarriages and when nature aborts you when you don't want it to, it must be very hard. Though I wouldn't be here if those little buggers hadn't of buggered off so I owe em my life!

[hellokitty]

She should have been sterilized and he castrated! :sick:

Yes but of course in the PC crazy world - it is their "right" to do whatever they want and to hell with the consequences....
They were going to charge him with stat rape but he was inside for assault when this all came out...

[Geeen]

However my gf and her friends are prone to drinking for getting shitfaced (why? All their parents seem to do it...), I don't think there's one form of alcohol my gf likes the taste of... :facepalm: The drinks are all "cover up the alcohol part" RTDs....

I think education and a good sense of communication with parents is key. :yes:



Brings to mind an Ad campaign ALAC had going a couple of years ago about "Training at the Bar" :drinkup:

Up to a certain age kids want to be just like Mum/Dad. I took my 4yo son around the house on my bike so I could wash it a couple of weeks ago and since then He wont wear anything that doesnt have a motorbike on it. It just shows how early attitudes towards things like Sex, Drugs, Alcohol and Rock 'n Roll are formed. Its kinda sad we are seeing kids either drowned in material things (toys, ipods etc) in lieu of having Mum or Dad around which promotes the "I want, I get" mindset or the other extreme of parents always drinking or getting high. When I was a SKY tech there were many jobs I did where the house was falling apart and kids were running around in overfull nappies but they HAD to have SKY TV. All this affects pregnancy rates, youth offending and Alcohol abuse when these kids grow up. The happy middle ground for the well adjusted seems to be shrinking.

[Gremlin]

You think 16 year-olds can't make rational decisions?
Well, the reasoning side of the human brain only develops properly in the early twenties, so certainly, a teenagers judgement could be wrong.


The dude is definitely just as responsible for what happens.
Responsible for the creating of a baby, yes. Forcing a women to abort, because that's the choice for you? Good luck. The ultimate decision is still hers, whether you like it or not.

In my experience, there are too many girls who don't truly think about the consequences of a child, the loss of personal time, career, friends etc, and think it would be cool/fun/whatever.

[sunhuntin]

In my experience, there are too many girls who don't truly think about the consequences of a child, the loss of personal time, career, friends etc, and think it would be cool/fun/whatever.

and yet those of us who know our minds and are 100% certain we never, ever want kids get told we cant choose sterilisation due to being too young. :angry:

[yachtie10]

Well, the reasoning side of the human brain only develops properly in the early twenties, so certainly, a teenagers judgement could be wrong.


Responsible for the creating of a baby, yes. Forcing a women to abort, because that's the choice for you? Good luck. The ultimate decision is still hers, whether you like it or not.

In my experience, there are too many girls who don't truly think about the consequences of a child, the loss of personal time, career, friends etc, and think it would be cool/fun/whatever.

shit your making sense today:yes:

[Geeen]

and yet those of us who know our minds and are 100% certain we never, ever want kids get told we cant choose sterilisation due to being too young. :angry:

The same happened to us AND we are married with 2 kids......

[Mom]

Why should abortion be any different?

No general anesthetic required...

I am with the OP here, you should have developed the kind of relationship with your daughters and sons that they can come to you with the hard news if shit happens.

I would be very angry with myself if something like this happend with one of my girls.

[sunhuntin]

The same happened to us AND we are married with 2 kids......

its not on IMHO. i can understand why they need to make sure, but they shouldnt discourage it so much either.
not sure if going private would make a difference. going to try changing drs and will ask cos it would be a load off my mind. i can barely tolerate my neice and nephews for a weekend, never mind 24/7 for the rest of my life.

[Geeen]

its not on IMHO. i can understand why they need to make sure, but they shouldnt discourage it so much either.
not sure if going private would make a difference. going to try changing drs and will ask cos it would be a load off my mind. i can barely tolerate my neice and nephews for a weekend, never mind 24/7 for the rest of my life.

My wife ended up getting a merina (nothing to do with boats :lol:) put in. It lasts five years and meant to be more reliable than if both parties are 'nicked'. So when shes in her 30s hopefully we can get a more permanent solution.

[Gremlin]

and yet those of us who know our minds and are 100% certain we never, ever want kids get told we cant choose sterilisation due to being too young. :angry:
To be fair tho, your mind can change a lot from twenties to fourties. Not saying it will, but I was dead certain I would never do long distance riding, yet now I'm addicted. That change only took a couple of years. Not in the same league of course, but the mind is a complicated thing.


shit your making sense today:yes:
Too much work/working on bike and not enough riding. It's a god awful mix :no:

[sunhuntin]

My wife ended up getting a merina (nothing to do with boats :lol:) put in. It lasts five years and meant to be more reliable than if both parties are 'nicked'. So when shes in her 30s hopefully we can get a more permanent solution.

ive been considering either that or the in-arm jadelle, but would rather a permanent "fix", and ive read differeing opinions of both which put me off somewhat.

done depo before and it worked fine. i dont trust my current dr to come near me with a pen, never mind a needle, hence trying to change. last time i went to her about my knees, which have been fucked for 6 years since my accident, she told me it was cos of my weight and then tried to book for me in for womens stuff. :facepalm:


To be fair tho, your mind can change a lot from twenties to fourties. Not saying it will, but I was dead certain I would never do long distance riding, yet now I'm addicted. That change only took a couple of years. Not in the same league of course, but the mind is a complicated thing.

this is true, but ive known since i was a kid myself that i never wanted any.

[oldrider]

What did the Yoda say in Starwars, do, or do not, if only life were that simple! :facepalm:

[nodrog]

theres nothing a good punch in the guts wont fix

[wysper]

I am with the OP here, you should have developed the kind of relationship with your daughters and sons that they can come to you with the hard news if shit happens.



I agree in principle here, but I would like to think that if my girl couldn't talk to me or her mum, there was someone she could talk to. I feel for the school's and the counsellors in this case. Everyone is in a lose-lose situation.

But if the kids weren't protected by the patient/doctor/counsellor confidentiality thing, then they wouldn't even talk to them. Then how much worse would it be!
The child would be trying to deal with this all alone.

Sure it shouldn't have happened in the first place, but it has and now the task is to try and deal with it in the best way possible.

Sure - option one is Mum and Dad, but if for some reason that can't or won't happen.

Next maybe and extended family member? No?

Next option is a counsellor/doctor

Surely that has to be better than second hand info and advice from other kids at school?

Just my 2c, I hope I never have to find out how our family would react to this.

[Edbear]

That's good stuff! I hope to be a very reasonable parent some day just like you seem to be.

My parents invoked the alcohol is a drink for taste from when I was only little, they are both Swiss so I got a good sense of what wines to combine with what cheeses. The best spirits to settle your taste-buds and stomach after a heavy cheese fondue :bleh: Pretty much the typical central European view of alcohol and it's combination with fooooood. Nom nom.

The thing was all the friends from my school all had a very similar upbringing (private school :shutup:). However my gf and her friends are prone to drinking for getting shitfaced (why? All their parents seem to do it...), I don't think there's one form of alcohol my gf likes the taste of... :facepalm: The drinks are all "cover up the alcohol part" RTDs....

I think education and a good sense of communication with parents is key. :yes:

My mother funnily enough is completely against abortion. Though I think that's completely due to past miscarriages and when nature aborts you when you don't want it to, it must be very hard. Though I wouldn't be here if those little buggers hadn't of buggered off so I owe em my life!

Interesting comments and well said.


No general anesthetic required...

I am with the OP here, you should have developed the kind of relationship with your daughters and sons that they can come to you with the hard news if shit happens.

I would be very angry with myself if something like this happend with one of my girls.

You've both hit the nail on the head. As others have opined, parental involvement with their children is vital. Open and respectful communication is absolutely necessary in order for children to be able to talk to their parents about anything knowing they will be listened to and respected and problems are addressed in an atmosphere of love.

Speaking of education, has anyone taken the time to learn about abortion, what it is and how it's done? As parents it is beholden upon us to know what we are talking about and able to communicate this with our children. I have a reference I'd like to post about abortion, but I do warn, it's gritty medical stuff.

[avgas]

I love this debate.
I brings out all the lovelys who think that teenagers know what the fuck they are doing.
They are teenagers - they will do the dumbest stuff possible, they are chemically imbalanced in the brain like an insane person.

So giving them some form of exit clause isnt a bad idea

[avgas]

Oooh yeah live a tough life or get killed in the womb, I know if I was a baby which one I'd be picking!

I mean everyone would rather die am I rite?
Every time you comment on here.
God kills and embryo.

Didn't you know

[Edbear]

I love this debate.
I brings out all the lovelys who think that teenagers know what the fuck they are doing.
They are teenagers - they will do the dumbest stuff possible, they are chemically imbalanced in the brain like an insane person.

So giving them some form of exit clause isnt a bad idea

Now I'm in my 50's I think I know what I'm doing, but then I've always thought I knew what I was doing and teenagers are no different. My 5 year-old grandson thinks he knows it all too and has to be protected from himself.

Teenagers are so full of raging hormones and growing spells they often don't know whether they are Arthur or Martha let alone whether they are coming or going and definitely need protecting from themselves!

Here's an attachment about abortion that many may not know about. It is sobering reading and should give everyone pause to think. It's not the mother's body, it's a whole nother person in the mother's body. And it feels pain.

[Lurch]

I'm one of the least religious people in the world but it's interesting that there are such a number of people here that don't believe in the sanctity of life.

I'm not saying that I'm the sort of guy that wouldn't have shot Osama, but I do believe that every life deserves the chance to have a go at it for themselves, even if that chance might be against the odds of 'being good'.

[racefactory]

It's a hell of a lot better than having even more sluts breeding like rabbits when they can't even afford to feed themself.

"Put the dick down, and get a phucking job."

SMOKEU speaks a lot of sense.

If not, then at least educate them to suck a cock instead of planting one.

Society and consequently the environment suffers when unwanted, neglected children are brought up. Stop the misery from mindless rooting before it begins- I'm all for it. The world and it's ecosystems are a train wreck picking up speed and we all need to be healthy minded and educated enough to stand up for the greater good; fuck the feminist activists. Human reproduction NEEDS to be outlawed in some form.

[avgas]

It's not the mother's body, it's a whole nother person in the mother's body. And it feels pain.
Yes and no.
Recent studies found the following:

- Fish choke when taken out of water. And will try to breath for hours in complete agony. They stated that taking a fish out of water for hours is the equivalent to putting a person in a well for a matter of weeks. Death being immanent.

- Plants are actually the most touch sensitive things on the planet. And feel pain up to a 1000 times more than a human. This is due to requiring the sensitivity to adjust leaves in sunlight and wind conditions. There is not comparison in human turns in the level of pain a plant feels when a branch is removed.

Plus countless other wonder facts out there.
Science is a bitch unless it suits someones personal agendas really.

Life is full of decisions. In many instances these decisions directly will affect someone else's quality of life. But it doesn't mean these decisions should be removed because of this. If you truly thought this you would not buy gold and diamonds, burn coal or oil, drink coffee or even read the newspaper. All of these decisions mean that someone, at some point in time has died because you made this decision.
But its unless the knowledge of the outcome fits someones personal agenda - you will not hear about it.

[Edbear]

Yes and no.
Recent studies found the following:

- Fish choke when taken out of water. And will try to breath for hours in complete agony. They stated that taking a fish out of water for hours is the equivalent to putting a person in a well for a matter of weeks. Death being immanent.

- Plants are actually the most touch sensitive things on the planet. And feel pain up to a 1000 times more than a human. This is due to requiring the sensitivity to adjust leaves in sunlight and wind conditions. There is not comparison in human turns in the level of pain a plant feels when a branch is removed.

Plus countless other wonder facts out there.
Science is a bitch unless it suits someones personal agendas really.

Life is full of decisions. In many instances these decisions directly will affect someone else's quality of life. But it doesn't mean these decisions should be removed because of this. If you truly thought this you would not buy gold and diamonds, burn coal or oil, drink coffee or even read the newspaper. All of these decisions mean that someone, at some point in time has died because you made this decision.
But its unless the knowledge of the outcome fits someones personal agenda - you will not hear about it.

Irrespective, mate, it's killing a human being in the most inhumane ways. It is cruel and barbaric and turns my stomach to read how it is done. :sick:

Talking about agenda's is true, though. Why don't we hear about this through the media?

Funny that someone who kills an unborn child through a lawless or careless act can be charged with murder or manslaughter but abortion is not classed as murder under the law, which it certainly is by definition.

[avgas]

don't believe in the sanctity of life.
Who's? Life is interesting as it seems very objective depending on where you sit.

In a world where we know we are going to run out of resources due to an increasing population (with an increasing demand).........

To change demand is near impossible........so depends what price you put on Sanctity of life.............if you believe it is a must, SAVE UGANDA for a start

[avgas]

Irrespective, mate, it's killing a human being in the most inhumane ways. It is cruel and barbaric and turns my stomach to read how it is done.
My theory in life if there is something I don't like, and it does not affect me.......I don't read about it.

It is a clear cut scientific procedure. Not an emotional one. If not a person doing it.....chances are there machines that could do it.
There are plenty of decisions out there that are just as cold and calculating. But likewise there are also plenty of other ways to save life than prevent abortion.

If you deal with dead people, better the ones you don't know than the ones you do.

[Ender EnZed]

Here's an attachment about abortion that many may not know about.

"Abortion medically"? You're not suggesting this is an unbiased presentation of facts are you?



It is cruel and barbaric and turns my stomach to read how it is done. :sick:

Any meat in that stomach? If so, do you ever consider what the death of an animal you're eating was like?

[Edbear]

"Abortion medically"? You're not suggesting this is an unbiased presentation of facts are you?

Any meat in that stomach? If so, do you ever consider what the death of an animal you're eating was like?

The facts are the facts, you make up your own mind if that is an acceptable form of killing a human being. And you are suggesting that humans are no more than animals to be killed for convenience? Would you like that kind of death for yourself, at someone else's convenience?

Have you seen the uproar over how animals are killed and the need to do so in the most "humane" way possible? Animals are killed for food nad when done so is done as humanley as possible by law. Try getting the abortion methods approved for the death of animals and see how far you get. You don't care that people are murdered in the most inhumane way possible?

[Ender EnZed]

I'm one of the least religious people in the world but it's interesting that there are such a number of people here that don't believe in the sanctity of life.

I'm not saying that I'm the sort of guy that wouldn't have shot Osama, but I do believe that every life deserves the chance to have a go at it for themselves, even if that chance might be against the odds of 'being good'.

Do you mean just human life or all life?

[superman]

I love this debate.
I brings out all the lovelys who think that teenagers know what the fuck they are doing.
They are teenagers - they will do the dumbest stuff possible, they are chemically imbalanced in the brain like an insane person.

So giving them some form of exit clause isnt a bad idea

What a bunch of crap, what teenager is insane that wasn't before puberty? The only thing the chemical imbalance does is make you horny as fuck, or angry as fuck. There's no sudden change in morality. You don't all of a sudden think it's perfectly fine to rape that chick because of how horny you are...

Do you even remember being a teenager? Were you really that much of a knob you think you were crazy? :facepalm:


The facts are the facts, you make up your own mind if that is an acceptable form of killing a human being. And you are suggesting that humans are no more than animals to be killed for convenience? Would you like that kind of death for yourself, at someone else's convenience?

Have you seen the uproar over how animals are killed and the need to do so in the most "humane" way possible? Animals are killed for food nad when done so is done as humanley as possible by law. Try getting the abortion methods approved for the death of animals and see how far you get. You don't care that people are murdered in the most inhumane way possible?

I don't personally like that they do it after 4 weeks. But apparently that's too early for some people, it doesn't take that long to work out you're pregnant. But I do believe that a girl deserves a chance at life she chooses, be it if she was stupid enough/unlucky enough to get pregnant, and especially if she's had no say in getting pregnant and been raped.

[Edbear]

I don't personally like that they do it after 4 weeks. But apparently that's too early for some people, it doesn't take that long to work out you're pregnant. But I do believe that a girl deserves a chance at life she chooses, be it if she was stupid enough/unlucky enough to get pregnant, and especially if she's had no say in getting pregnant and been raped.

Regardless of the reason for pregnancy the fact of the matter is that abortion is the inhumane and cruel killing of a human being. It is murder by definition but legal under the law. Not only is the act of murder legal the barbaric method is legal, whereas it would be illegal for a born human. The other anomoly I pointed out is that the definition of murder seems to be dependent upon whether the unborn child is wanted or unwanted.

What is the difference between delivering a baby by ceasarian section and killing it, making it legal because it's not wanted, or delivering the same baby and killing it when it is wanted? Only one is counted as murder under the law.

[Ender EnZed]

The facts are the facts,

And the document you attached reads like a church flyer. Probably because it is.


And you are suggesting that humans are no more than animals to be killed for convenience?

No.



Have you seen the uproar over how animals are killed and the need to do so in the most "humane" way possible? Animals are killed for food nad when done so is done as humanley as possible by law. Try getting the abortion methods approved for the death of animals and see how far you get. You don't care that people are murdered in the most inhumane way possible?

I see not many people have ever stopped eating meat due to concerns for the well being of the animals. And if you believe that the animals you eat are killed "humanely" then I would suggest that you either don't have a clue what goes on or you hold a very odd definition of humane.

The law definitely does NOT require animals to be killed "as humanely as possible".

[superman]

Regardless of the reason for pregnancy the fact of the matter is that abortion is the inhumane and cruel killing of a human being. It is murder by definition but legal under the law. Not only is the act of murder legal the barbaric method is legal, whereas it would be illegal for a born human. The other anomoly I pointed out is that the definition of murder seems to be dependent upon whether the unborn child is wanted or unwanted.

What is the difference between delivering a baby by ceasarian section and killing it, making it legal because it's not wanted, or delivering the same baby and killing it when it is wanted? Only one is counted as murder under the law.

The organs have not even started to develop at 4 weeks. That is the point where they begin to grow. At 4 weeks it is the size of a poppy seed. No matter how I think of it, at that point it's not disgusting or inhumane in anyway. It can be killed by a drug. It has no mental capacity whatsoever. It is growing like a plant and that's all, it has all the things necessary to start turning into human life, but it in no way resembles human life at this point.

[PrincessBandit]

This is one situation where parents can get a really raw deal when it comes to something as lifechanging as this. I understand that some kids would be shit scared to confide to their parents that not only are they having sex, but that there's a baby on the way as well.
What is tragic is that these unplanned babes are seen as disposable inconveniences (either girl was drunk and "didn't know what I was doing" - I have long long ago written that off as a pathetic excuse for any sort of unacceptable behaviour; or "I'm not mature enough to deal with a baby, but I'm mature enough to enjoy sex despite knowing the potential consequences").

It really does my head in thinking about the fact that, sure a girl might say "it's my body and I'll do with it (and it's contents) as I please", while thinking that they're the be-all-and-end-all in the world. What about the bloke? (he had some part in the preceding events...), what about the girl's parents who will be losing a grandchild to this process?

I'm completely gobsmacked that a school, the girls friends and God knows who else she tells can be aware of this and her own parents don't have any "right to know".

[Ender EnZed]

Regardless of the reason for pregnancy the fact of the matter is that abortion is the inhumane and cruel killing of a human being. It is murder by definition

Do you consider a human embryo to be a human being? Where do you draw the line?

[superman]

Do you consider a human embryo to be a human being? Where do you draw the line?

He draws it at conception. IE morning after pill is morally unacceptable. For we are knitted together in our mothers womb by God himself. (like the bible reference Ed? Thought you might. :bleh:)

[Edbear]

And the document you attached reads like a church flyer. Probably because it is.

I see not many people have ever stopped eating meat due to concerns for the well being of the animals. And if you believe that the animals you eat are killed "humanely" then I would suggest that you either don't have a clue what goes on or you hold a very odd definition of humane.

The law definitely does NOT require animals to be killed "as humanely as possible".

What have animals got to do with it? As I said, you seem to think that human beings are disposable and can be despatched as cruelly as you like because they are not wanted.

As for being a church flyer, can't you use Google and find out for yourself? Why do people insist on shooting the messenger when they don't like the message? Doesn't do you any favours to deny the facts just because the form they are presented in doesn't appeal to you.


The organs have not even started to develop at 4 weeks. That is the point where they begin to grow. At 4 weeks it is the size of a poppy seed. No matter how I think of it, at that point it's not disgusting or inhumane in anyway. It can be killed by a drug. It has no mental capacity whatsoever. It is growing like a plant and that's all, it has all the things necessary to start turning into human life, but it in no way resembles human life at this point.

And how many abortions are performed at less than four weeks?


Do you consider a human embryo to be a human being? Where do you draw the line?


He draws it at conception. IE morning after pill is morally unacceptable. For we are knitted together in our mothers womb by God himself. (like the bible reference Ed? Thought you might. :bleh:)

You know, for someone who likes to think he's smart you can be really dumb sometimes.

Go back and read the facts of the way abortions are performed and you tell me how it makes you feel.

[Edbear]

Do you consider a human embryo to be a human being? Where do you draw the line?

Like, what else is it..? You too, read the facts again and tell us how it makes you feel.

[superman]

It really does my head in thinking about the fact that, sure a girl might say "it's my body and I'll do with it (and it's contents) as I please", while thinking that they're the be-all-and-end-all in the world. What about the bloke? (he had some part in the preceding events...), what about the girl's parents who will be losing a grandchild to this process?

I'm completely gobsmacked that a school, the girls friends and God knows who else she tells can be aware of this and her own parents don't have any "right to know".

No, no, no. If I knocked a chick up I would go with her decision no matter what it was and whether it was what I wanted. Her body, her rights. As far as the girl's parents are concerned they should be also willing to support their daughters decision.

It should be up to her who she tells, her responsibility. Not a requirement of law.

"Losing a grandchild", well if you're catholic you're losing a grandchild every time the kid takes part in protected sex. So that's completely opinionated on the parents beliefs, and therefore should be the daughters decision not the parents.


And how many abortions are performed at less than four weeks?

Not enough of the proportion. As said, I find it disgusting that they can do it at 20 weeks. If however there is no brain activity whatsoever. I'm happy :yes: Just like a plant has no brain activity, therefore no matter what the method is, if there's no brain activity it's not inhumane. For it is a growing biological being, without the capacity to think.

[Ender EnZed]

What have animals got to do with it?

Humans are animals too.


As for being a church flyer, can't you use Google and find out for yourself? Why do people insist on shooting the messenger when they don't like the message? Doesn't do you any favours to deny the facts just because the form they are presented in doesn't appeal to you.

If your position is ultimately supported by religious beliefs rather than moral then any discussion of the latter isn't going to get far. However I won't raise it again.


And how many abortions are performed at less than four weeks?

The majority of abortions are performed during the embryonic stage of development. This is up to week 8.


Like, what else is it..?

So you're completely opposed to stem cell research and all the benefits it may hold if it has involved human embryos?


You too, read the facts again and tell us how it makes you feel.

How do you feel about the morning after pill?

[Flip]

Well in my book Murder is Murder, a unborn human fetus has the right to a life just the same as you and I do. A few years ago I would have said other wise, I used to be very pro choice but these days I am right against abortion for any but the most serious medical reasons.

To me a human being exists from conception (is going to be a human) and continues through life (is a human being) past death to the end of time (was a human being). If it helps I believe a fetus is a developing human being and is entitled to the same protection under the law as you and I.

[Geeen]

And how many abortions are performed at less than four weeks?



How many women even know they're pregnant at 4 weeks? As far as I'm aware 12 weeks is where the risk of NATURAL abortion (miscarriage) drops considerably.

Man this is an emotive topic.

[Ender EnZed]

Well in my book Murder is Murder, a unborn human fetus has the right to a life just the same as you and I do. A few years ago I would have said other wise, I used to be very pro choice but these days I am right against abortion for any but the most serious medical reasons.

What made you change your mind?


To me a human being exists from conception (is going to be a human) and continues through life (is a human being) past death to the end of time (was a human being). If it helps I believe a fetus is a developing human being and is entitled to the same protection under the law as you and I.

So you don't distinguish between foetus and embryo?

[Edbear]

Humans are animals too.


If your position is ultimately supported by religious beliefs rather than moral then any discussion of the latter isn't going to get far. However I won't raise it again.


The majority of abortions are performed during the embryonic stage of development. This is up to week 8.

So you're completely opposed to stem cell research and all the benefits it may hold if it has involved human embryos?

I am opposed to killing people especially in such a horrific manner! Forget religion this is a humanitarian issue and a moral one. You don't have to be in any way religious to understand the mechanics of what is going on. How about you actually answer the question I put to you? How do you feel when you read the facts?

In my opinion, doing this is abhorrent! How about commenting on the points I've raised instead of getting at me personally? Doesn't do anything for the discussion, does it?

Yes I am opposed to using embryo's for research as I do count them as human life. Stem cell research, if you've bothered keeping up with it does not require the killing of embryo's anymore, it can be done without that.

You still sound as though you feel that murder can be acceptable, even barbaric and patently cruel murder that would never be accepted in any other circumstance, on the basis of whether a baby is wanted or not.

[Edbear]

How many women even know they're pregnant at 4 weeks? As far as I'm aware 12 weeks is where the risk of NATURAL abortion (miscarriage) drops considerably.

Man this is an emotive topic.

It certainly is, and religion or no, I'm a human being with feelings for others and once I read what actually happens, I was disgusted and sick and became implacably opposed to the practice.

I have enormous sympathy for parents faced with extreme medical concerns over their unborn and feel for them in the anguish they feel at having to make a decision on the matter. This however, is different from what we are discussing here.

[Geeen]

Its really about where the individual draws the line of when the embryo/foetus becomes a person in their own right. Is it when they gain a sense of self (higher brain functions) or the moment of inception. This is starting to drift away from the article in the OP, which was about Parents not being told of pregnancies or terminations by the school. I personally think Parents have a RIGHT to know but not sure if its the schools place to tell them. As a parent how would you react to a phone call from the principal along the lines of " Were you aware your daughter is pregnant and wanting to terminate the pregnacy" ? I dont think many would take it well.

[awayatc]

Well in my book Murder is Murder, a unborn human fetus has the right to a life just the same as you and I do. A few years ago I would have said other wise, I used to be very pro choice but these days I am right against abortion for any but the most serious medical reasons.

To me a human being exists from conception (is going to be a human) and continues through life (is a human being) past death to the end of time (was a human being). If it helps I believe a fetus is a developing human being and is entitled to the same protection under the law as you and I.

And into what will this unwanted "human" turn into....?
Hope for you that you will be spared a serious run in with a "saved" abortion candidate.
Headlines are full of them.........
Human embryos will only turn into decent humans when they are wanted and loved.

Far 2 few abortions as is.....

[rachprice]

Like, what else is it..? You too, read the facts again and tell us how it makes you feel.

What you have presented is so far from 'fact', more extremely biased and one-sided to suit your view. There are many things wrong with abortion but because it is so emotionally charged both sides are extremely narrow minded about the other side

[Edbear]

And into what will this unwanted "human" turn into....?
Hope for you that you will be spared a serious run in with a "saved" abortion candidate.
Headlines are full of them.........
Human embryos will only turn into decent humans when they are wanted and loved.

Far 2 few abortions as is.....

Have you read how it's performed? Read that and tell us how it makes you feel.

[Edbear]

What you have presented is so far from 'fact', more extremely biased and one-sided worded to suit your view. There are many things wrong with abortion but because it is so emotionally charged both sides are extremely narrow minded about the other side

These are not facts?

Suction Aspiration. A suction curette (hollow tube with sharp-edged tip) is inserted into the womb, and suction 28 times stronger than that of a vacuum cleaner shreds the baby and draws the pieces into a container. This method is used in most abortions up to the 12th week. By then the child is completely formed and sensitive to pain.

Dilation and Curettage (D & C). Similar to the suction method, except for the insertion of a loop-shaped knife that dismembers the baby and scrapes the pieces out through the womb opening.

Saline Solution. Fluid is drawn out of the amniotic sac where the baby is and a concentrated salt solution injected in its place. The baby breathes and swallows the solution, struggles, haemorrhages, goes into convulsions, and in a few hours dies. Thereafter the mother goes into hard labour and delivers a dead or dying baby. This method is used in advanced pregnancies, four to six months.

Prostaglandin Abortion. Birth hormones are injected into the amniotic sac to induce premature birth. Salt is often injected first to prevent live births.

Hysterotomy. Similar to a caesarean section. The abdomen and womb are opened surgically and the baby is removed. Nearly all these babies are lifted out alive, struggle for a while, cry and die. Used in very late abortions, when premature births could survive.

[superman]

Its really about where the individual draws the line of when the embryo/foetus becomes a person in their own right. Is it when they gain a sense of self (higher brain functions) or the moment of inception. This is starting to drift away from the article in the OP, which was about Parents not being told of pregnancies or terminations by the school. I personally think Parents have a RIGHT to know but not sure if its the schools place to tell them. As a parent how would you react to a phone call from the principal along the lines of " Were you aware your daughter is pregnant and wanting to terminate the pregnacy" ? I dont think many would take it well.

Yes, it really gets into all sorts of freedom of thought arguments, free will to choose what one wants when under the age of 18. So obviously parents agree that it's ok for the daughter to not require parental consent for an abortion/be required by law to tell the parents if an abortion is taking place when they are over 18?

Now why do parents suddenly find it okay for the teenager to be free from parental consent at 18? Really it's completely culturally caused, as that is just what is expected. It's nothing to do with a sudden gain in mental capacity, or a sudden maturity. Why was my political view at 16 not valid in an election? Because of a culturally based law, not because I couldn't make a decision on which party would be the best to run our country based on economic/socioeconomic values.

Society is just plain built against the thought of those under 18 having any sort of impact directly into society. As women once were oppressed directly by law for the same reasons, those under 18 still are.

[Edbear]

For those who don't know how to Google...

http://www.abortion.gen.nz/procedures/index.html
http://www.americanpregnancy.org/unplannedpregnancy/abortionprocedures.html

So far no-one has said how reading the facts of the procedure has affected them. Or commented on the legal anomolies I've pointed out.

[Edbear]

Yes, it really gets into all sorts of freedom of thought arguments, free will to choose what one wants when under the age of 18. So obviously parents agree that it's ok for the daughter to not require parental consent for an abortion/be required by law to tell the parents if an abortion is taking place when they are over 18?

Now why do parents suddenly find it okay for the teenager to be free from parental consent at 18? Really it's completely culturally caused, as that is just what is expected. It's nothing to do with a sudden gain in mental capacity, or a sudden maturity. Why was my political view at 16 not valid in an election? Because of a culturally based law, not because I couldn't make a decision on which party would be the best to run our country based on economic/socioeconomic values.

Society is just plain built against the thought of those under 18 having any sort of impact directly into society. As women once were oppressed directly by law for the same reasons, those under 18 still are.

While it would be nice and the ideal for people to be allowed to "mature" based on individual maturity and capability, you can't legislate for that. Parental upbringing has such a wide variety of effects that one person may be mature and responsible well before another, but how do you make laws for that?

[Geeen]

Yes, it really gets into all sorts of freedom of thought arguments, free will to choose what one wants when under the age of 18. So obviously parents agree that it's ok for the daughter to not require parental consent for an abortion/be required by law to tell the parents if an abortion is taking place when they are over 18?

Now why do parents suddenly find it okay for the teenager to be free from parental consent at 18? Really it's completely culturally caused, as that is just what is expected. It's nothing to do with a sudden gain in mental capacity, or a sudden maturity. Why was my political view at 16 not valid in an election? Because of a culturally based law, not because I couldn't make a decision on which party would be the best to run our country based on economic/socioeconomic values.

Society is just plain built against the thought of those under 18 having any sort of impact directly into society. As women once were oppressed directly by law for the same reasons, those under 18 still are.

Kind of. Thats getting into "at what age are you Legally an Adult". Different can of worms, right next to this on the shelf though.:laugh:

Christianity has had 2000 odd years to influence Western society so its built into our morality irrespective of whether you are God fearing (WEIRD phrase) or not. At one time a child was not considered human in Japan untill reaching 2 years old. This was reflective of the high infant mortality rate of the time. So, Yes, societal trends do influence morality.

[Geeen]

For those who don't know how to Google...

Have you seen this: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=kiwibiker

Helpful and Funny :yes:

[Edbear]

Kind of. Thats getting into "at what age are you Legally an Adult". Different can of worms, right next to this on the shelf though.:laugh:

Christianity has had 2000 odd years to influence Western society so its built into our morality irrespective of whether you are God fearing (WEIRD phrase) or not. At one time a child was not considered human in Japan untill reaching 2 years old. This was reflective of the high infant mortality rate of the time. So, Yes, societal trends do influence morality.

And in one society where the people are long lived, you're not considered and adult able to sit on council until you're 40.

[superman]

While it would be nice and the ideal for people to be allowed to "mature" based on individual maturity and capability, you can't legislate for that. Parental upbringing has such a wide variety of effects that one person may be mature and responsible well before another, but how do you make laws for that?

Yes, and parents are very influential upon kids to a certain age. IE an 8 year old voting would put down what mummy said. :yes:

I think the law not requiring schools/doctors to tell parents about their daughter wanting an abortion is fair. As a parent you should have raised your kids to the best of your ability, to be as open with you as possible about any issues. If she's not open about it, not willing to speak about it, then it's either that you have conveyed to her you are not above controlling the situation or regularly force your wishes upon her without her getting a say in matters. And to me, those parents can receive their just desserts for their own choices in parenting.

Having a non-requirement doesn't stifle good relationships in anyway, and it protects the girl from bad relationships or controlling parents. Fair enough to me.

[Geeen]

And in one society where the people are long lived, you're not considered and adult able to sit on council until you're 40.

I don't think I'll ever be an Adult :laugh: I'm all growed up, but its too much fun being a big kid :wings:

[superman]

Kind of. Thats getting into "at what age are you Legally an Adult". Different can of worms, right next to this on the shelf though.:laugh:

Christianity has had 2000 odd years to influence Western society so its built into our morality irrespective of whether you are God fearing (WEIRD phrase) or not. At one time a child was not considered human in Japan untill reaching 2 years old. This was reflective of the high infant mortality rate of the time. So, Yes, societal trends do influence morality.

Exactly, a farmer who has a rabbit problem and has to kill rabbits every day won't blink an eye at doing so. A townie seeing it might be absolutely mortified. It's all about perspective. :yes:

[Edbear]

Yes, and parents are very influential upon kids to a certain age. IE an 8 year old voting would put down what mummy said. :yes:

I think the law not requiring schools/doctors to tell parents about their daughter wanting an abortion is fair. As a parent you should have raised your kids to the best of your ability, to be as open with you as possible about any issues. If she's not open about it, not willing to speak about it, then it's either that you have conveyed to her you are not above controlling the situation or regularly force your wishes upon her without her getting a say in matters. And to me, those parents can receive their just desserts for their own choices in parenting.

Having a non-requirement doesn't stifle good relationships in anyway, and it protects the girl from bad relationships or controlling parents. Fair enough to me.

And this is the real problem. Too many parents do not have this kind of trusting and open relationship where they can discuss the facts of life and look at consequences; of planning ahead for the ages where the child will grow and change. Too often it's left up to chance and the so-called "generation gap" comes along.

[Geeen]

Exactly, a farmer who has a rabbit problem and has to kill rabbits every day won't blink an eye at doing so. A townie seeing it might be absolutely mortified. It's all about perspective. :yes:

Like the Annual cull down South, they got thousands this year and yet my wifes friends are horrified when I say "Rabbits are pests" :facepalm:

[superman]

Like the Annual cull down South, they got thousands this year and yet my wifes friends are horrified when I say "Rabbits are pests" :facepalm:

Yeah I've seen videos with a farmer having tens of rabbits just around his feet, they must of been everywhere. Footage was from around the 60s I think, and he was just picking them up one by one and snapping their necks.

Education solves everything, if you can understand the farmers direct point of view it becomes a no-brainer to do what he's doing. People just seem to lack the understanding of the overall picture and just see the rabbits dying not all the issues the rabbits cause.

[Flip]

What made you change your mind?



So you don't distinguish between foetus and embryo?

1, Being a parent and 2, I don't. Higher brain function my ass, hell half the people I work with would fail this test. It's baby in my book, a living human unborn baby. Do you go up to pregnant women and ask when is your fetus due? Its baby murder plain and simple to me.

If my teenage daughter came home pregnant I would not be pleased. However the kids family and I would be more than happy to look after the baby. Its still a human and it what we humans do.

[Geeen]

"But its a cute widdw bunny :crybaby:" Thats killing pasture needed to feed livestock so our economy keeps moving.

[superman]

1, Being a parent and 2, I don't. Higher brain function my ass, hell half the people I work with would fail this test. It's baby in my book, a living human unborn baby. Do you go up to pregnant women and ask when is your fetus due? Its baby murder plain and simple to me.

If my teenage daughter came home pregnant I would not be pleased. However the kids family and I would be more than happy to look after the baby. Its still a human and it what we humans do.

The point is, is it her choice or yours?

[Edbear]

The point is, is it her choice or yours?

Who has the right to choose to kill another human? It's not her body, it is another human being. The baby is the innocent victim in all this and has no say.

Think about my question above, "Would you approve of this method of murder being used on you because you were inconvenient or not wanted by someone else?"

[superman]

Who has the right to choose to kill another human? It's not her body, it is another human being. The baby is the innocent victim in all this and has no say.

Think about my question above, "Would you approve of this method of murder being used on you because you were inconvenient or not wanted by someone else?"

As I've said Ed, I'm only for abortion through the very early periods of gestation.

At 4 weeks (AT THE LATEST)
239108

It has no organs, no brain, just a blood vessel and a primordial gut. And it's about 2mm long.

If I was in it's position I would be thinking ..................................................

If that piece of biological flesh can turn into something inconvenient, detrimental to the future of it's carrier then why be worried getting rid of it? Just get rid of it, before it develops into a thinking feeling foetus.

It's not murder at this stage! That's like saying it's murder to pull the plug on a brain dead human?!

[Edbear]

Weeks one through four...http://www.pregnancy.org/fetaldevelopment/weeks-1-4

• Ovulation occurs - The time is right; now you just need this egg to be fertilized!

• Conception occurs - Did you know that during your pregnancy that your uterus will increase its capacity by 1000 times?!

• Gender is determined - Immediately upon fertilization your little one is set as a boy or a girl. Ladies, this is one that you can't take credit for since it is up to the sperm to determine the sex of your baby. Sperm carries either a "X" (girl) chromosome or a "Y" (boy) chromosome. (*Hint:* You will have to hold off on picking out the pink or blue until at least the second trimester when the gender will be visible via ultrasound.)

• Implantation - Some spotting (also known as implantation bleeding) may occur about 10 - 14 days after conception. You may believe you are starting your period but generally this bleeding is extremely light and lasts only a day or so.

• Neural tube forms - It will develop into the nervous system (Brain, spinal cord, hair, and skin). Already your baby has the foundation for thought, senses, feeling, and more!

• Heart and primitive circulatory system rapidly form - While still in its beginning stages, this is the very life support system that will carry your child throughout his or her life.


IMHO, a human being with all the rights of a human being. I'm afraid we will have to disgree on this point.
Interesting read..
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1566772,00.html

[Usarka]

Links have been made between legalisation of abortions and drops in crime rates.

So they're good for society!

In the book Freakonomics they discussed the drop in crime in the states in the 90's and link this to the legalisation of abortions 15-20 years earlier. They also back this up by comparing different states crime stats vs the year they legalised it. Excerpt: http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-4/

[blue rider]

Like the Annual cull down South, they got thousands this year and yet my wifes friends are horrified when I say "Rabbits are pests" :facepalm:

i still don't understand why one cant buy rabbits at the butchers, they are really nice in a bit of a redwine sauce, or mustard sauce with gnochi on the side. :drool:

there are so many rabbits here, but not to eat? why :blink:

as for the topic on hand,

can't get pregnant - not your choice then

think abortions are evil? don't have one

[Flip]

The point is, is it her choice or yours?

No its murder, its not a choice.

[superman]

No its murder, its not a choice.

So you're going to impose your "definition" of murder onto your daughter if she got pregnant rather than let her decide for herself? :niceone: Top quality parenting mate. Up there with religious fundamentalists.

[jaffaonajappa]

Arghhhh.
I was here about 30 mins ago - I had it with me then, but cant seem to find it now. Mustve dropped it somewhere.

Anyone seen my popcorn?

[EJK]

Just thought some people don't quite know the procedure of how abortion works... Here's a coulple of very short educational videos.


Early abortion
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QBOAPleF1t0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Late abortion
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QUr0jCbcPNc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

After seeing these videos, (hope) some might change your mind. I'm against abortion.

[Flip]

And into what will this unwanted "human" turn into....?
Hope for you that you will be spared a serious run in with a "saved" abortion candidate.
Headlines are full of them.........
Human embryos will only turn into decent humans when they are wanted and loved.

Far 2 few abortions as is.....

So what you are saying is its OK to kill unborn babies if they come from broken homes or young mothers on the basis they may not end up being good middle class citizens. I believe that murder is murder and I can say so without any moral ambulatory or the need to categories for any reason any human being as belonging to a sub class.

20,000,000 Chinese died at the hands of the Japs because they were believed to be a sub class and 6,000,000 Jews at the hands of the Nazi's, I honestly believe in the sanctity of ALL human life.

[superman]

Just thought some people don't quite know the procedure of how abortion works... Here's a coulple of very short educational videos.

After seeing these videos, (hope) some might change your mind. I'm against abortion.

You missed early early abortion. Take a pill, away it goes, which works up to 9 weeks from last period to do at home. And then from 9 weeks on you can use the pill version still but you have to be observed at a hospital.

And I'm pretty sure they don't do that demonic second video you showed in this country! I looked up something on really late abortions due to health reasons, which is the only reason you'd abort a nearly full grown baby. And in NZ they anesthetize the baby entirely in such a situation, personally I'd think in such a late stage why not just birth the baby and see if it lives (though I guess that's a calculated decision if they know if it's going to suffer and die). If it's already that far out it's hardly gonna hurt the mother to take it out alive rather than killing it inside.

[PrincessBandit]

No its murder, its not a choice.

Indeed. The baby whose life is being destroyed has no choice...

[Flip]

So you're going to impose your "definition" of murder onto your daughter if she got pregnant rather than let her decide for herself? :niceone: Top quality parenting mate. Up there with religious fundamentalists.

Murder is murder, the death of an unborn baby vs my daughters inconvenience is not reason enough to terminate the pregnancy, as I have already said in my home, family is family.

For your information I take a great deal of offense in your criticism of my parenting. I have been a foster parent for the last 18 years and have provided a home for more children than I care to count. Some have been hard work, some have just been a delight to have around. The oldest is just starting his tertiary studies this year. The people here that know me can vouch for this.

[superman]

Murder is murder, the death of an unborn baby vs my daughters inconvenience is not reason enough to terminate the pregnancy, as I have already said in my home, family is family.

For your information I take a great deal of offense in your criticism of my parenting. I have been a foster parent for the last 18 years and have provided a home for more children than I care to count. Some have been hard work, some have just been a delight to have around. The oldest is just starting his tertiary studies this year. The people here that know me can vouch for this. What have you done?

Nothing... I'm 19. I just question your "authority" to make a decision on her behalf. I take offense you'd think that your view point trumps your daughters. Sure if you've raised her to a point where she has the same views as you... fine. But let her make the decision, not you. It's not your body, not your baby! That's what I take issue with, it should be her choice! Not yours.

I don't think you quite understand the definition of murder either... "unlawfully taking a humans life"... against the law... abortion is not against the law in NZ and therefore by definition not murder. But I understand what you're saying...

Fact of the matter is... it's not a baby for a good few weeks into the pregnancy. It's a piece of flesh with human dna.

As I've shown above (post #102) at four weeks it's pretty much the same as a tumour, no organs, no brain... just a blood vessel. The only "animal" like characteristic is a primordial gut inside of it and it's 2mm long in its entirety. It's wrong to get rid of that? Well then you might as well take the stance of the catholics and says it's wrong to use contraception for wasting your seed is wasting potential human life! :facepalm:

[Spearfish]

So who is responsible if the child has complications from the abortion, the legal guardians, the councillor, the school or the medics? Imagine the parents rushing a girl heavily bleeding to hospital to be told its from her abortion that went wrong, imagine the reaction.

Considering NZ has some of the worst statistics regarding children, why does the nation still listen to these "experts" who decide what's best for family's?

Maybe its just the fact every parent in NZ is crap..thank fark the likes of Suey Bradford are there to fix it.......no more blue babes now aye?

[superman]

Maybe its just the fact every parent in NZ is crap.

I've seen Polynesians feeding toothless babies cheese-burgers at maccas. :facepalm:

[awayatc]

20,000,000 Chinese died at the hands of the Japs..........

I believe they have since recovered from losing that number........

Not a single "human" alive won't die.

many however won't live very well before death...

If the mother doesn't want to have a baby, how much chance will that baby have If you FORCE her to have it because of your "superior" beliefs.

Sound unrealistic and arrogant to me.......

[scracha]

What? My post says you either have to be "very very stupid".

You've obviously never tried alcohol nor had a spur of the moment quick shag?


Experts blathering on about 20 weeks and late stage abortions. The sad fact of the matter is that a young lady in New Zealand can go to the doctor at around 4 weeks pregnant. It then often takes another month or two before an abortion is performed. Makes a relatively simple procedure a long drawn out emotional one. Perhaps this should be addressed first?


Edbear....would you rather the kids were born, unwanted and bounced off every wall in the house like so many poor wee bastards in this country?



As for the God bothereres morallistic arguments....fuck off...not interested. Sure..."children are a blessing". We can all seen the results of that religious mantra (be it Catholic, Anglican, hindi, muslim or whatever) in shitholes like India and many African countries. "Lets outbreed these reghead bastards"....oh yea...that's work. Stupid + stupid breeds really stupid.

[Lurch]

....would you rather the kids were born, unwanted and bounced off every wall in the house like so many poor wee bastards in this country?

Many have survived torturous childhoods to have become great people. I think that a life deserves the chance to try, to have the opportunity for even just one day of happiness.

Teaching a teenager to undervalue the life that they have created doesn't do the human race any favours.

[PrincessBandit]

Nothing... I'm 19. I just question your "authority" to make a decision on her behalf. I take offense you'd think that your view point trumps your daughters. Sure if you've raised her to a point where she has the same views as you... fine. But let her make the decision, not you. It's not your body, not your baby! That's what I take issue with, it should be her choice! Not yours.

I don't think you quite understand the definition of murder either... "unlawfully taking a humans life"... against the law... abortion is not against the law in NZ and therefore by definition not murder. But I understand what you're saying...

Fact of the matter is... it's not a baby for a good few weeks into the pregnancy. It's a piece of flesh with human dna.




You are young, and time will tell if you hold to those same views as you age. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with you having your opinion on this matter regardless of the fact that I don't agree with you. I'm simply saying that from experience I can say that things I felt strongly about when I was your age have altered considerably since turning into an old lady!

Perspective is a funny thing, and most certainly can change over time.

[superman]

You've obviously never tried alcohol nor had a spur of the moment quick shag?

Of course, I'm 19. I've had excessive amounts of alcohol just like anyone else.

Does that mean I should have had a spur of the moment fight as well?

Blaming alcohol for stupid decisions is retarded, I've been stoned out of my mind and drunk at the same time and manage to shag fine with a condom on. Though funnily enough it broke... so she felt compelled to get the morning after pill just in case.

There's no excuses.

[jonbuoy]

Yeah I know... but the chances are sooo low if say you are using a condom and the contraceptive pill together.

Have you had sex yet? If your long term girlfriend was on the pill would you wear a condom as well?

[Spearfish]

Have you had sex yet? If your long term girlfriend was on the pill would you wear a condom as well?


Maybe more than one just in case one broke...

[Edbear]

Links have been made between legalisation of abortions and drops in crime rates.

So they're good for society!

In the book Freakonomics they discussed the drop in crime in the states in the 90's and link this to the legalisation of abortions 15-20 years earlier. They also back this up by comparing different states crime stats vs the year they legalised it. Excerpt: http://freakonomicsbook.com/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-4/

Will never alter the fact that it is the most inhumane and cruel thing one can do to another human being. Stats don't make up for the pain and suffering and callous disregard for the innocent victims.

[superman]

Have you had sex yet? If your long term girlfriend was on the pill would you wear a condom as well?

She is on the pill and no I don't use condoms as well. Pill by itself is very low risk and the only reason people get pregnant on the pill is usually by say having sex while on some medication which negates the pill, or the girl misses a couple and seems to think it's fine.

However if I had a long term gf against abortion on the pill, I think I would use a condom as well just cause I wouldn't want to be put in the situation of being a father. Though I don't think I could have a long term gf with views so vastly different to mine, what a nightmare that would be.

Lucky for me her views on career development are high (them feminists all have something to prove) and so she said straight out to me if I get pregnant I'm going to have an abortion. :yes:

[Edbear]

So you're going to impose your "definition" of murder onto your daughter if she got pregnant rather than let her decide for herself? :niceone: Top quality parenting mate. Up there with religious fundamentalists.


Indeed. The baby whose life is being destroyed has no choice...


Many have survived torturous childhoods to have become great people. I think that a life deserves the chance to try, to have the opportunity for even just one day of happiness.

Teaching a teenager to undervalue the life that they have created doesn't do the human race any favours.

It is murder by legal definition, not necessary to have "your" definition regardless. I have extensively researched this topic since 1982 when I first learned how abortions are performed, and by any sane person's standards the practise is abhorrent in the way it is carried out.

Miscarriages are traumatic for the parents even where there is no doubt a medical issue that has made the baby unviable and stillbirths even more so. Nature tends to take matters in its own hands in such cases but nevertheless it is still traumatic.

The procedures used in abortion would never be legal in any other circumstance and should have human rights activists up in arms, yet we hear nothing and see little if anything about it in the media.

Children are precious and given the chance can be brought up to be good people regardless of their origin.

I'm going to reveal personal history here to show I know what I'm talking about. My son is my stepson and when his mother got pregnant as a teenager she was pressured to abort him and failing that to give him up for adoption. I met her when she was 6mths pregnant and being supported by mutual friends having been kicked out of home. These friends suported her throughout until her son was born, after which her father came and took her back home.

I fell in love not just with his Mum, but also with him and wanted to care for them and give them a better chance at life. We married when he was two and we'll celebrate our 34th anniversary this coming Oct.

As a child he had a slight fetal-alcohol syndrome and ADHD which was not discovered until 1981, so he was not the easiest child to bring up being super strong and prone to violent temper. At three he "threw" a free-standing wardrobe across the room, at two he took the kitten under his arm and climbed the 8' fence between us and the neighbour's farm and took off. At 5 at school he was beating up the 9 year olds. With patience and persistence and the right treatment he is now 35, has rarely been out of work, I can only remember him once being on the dole for a short time, and is calm and laid back and kind and caring. His half-sisters adore him and he is currently living at home, having decided to come back and help us out since my accident.

I'm the only father he has known and we are as close as a father and son can be. When he was 8 he came to me and said he "felt funny being a mistake", -we'd told him at 4 that he was my stepson,- and that he "felt different" from his sisters. I explained that I had fallen in love with both him and his mother and loved him as much. I explained that blood meant a natural bond between me and his sisters but in his case, like his Mother, we developed that bond as we grew together. He felt so much better knowing he was "the same as Mum" in my heart.

Over the years, he has expressed his love and gratitude for my taking him on and we are very protective of each other. He dearly loves his Mum for refusing to abort him or give him up despite her circumstances at the time. What would have been the outcome for this special young man?

I know this is only one example but it also shows not all cases are as the "experts" reckon.

[superman]

I know this is only one example but it also shows not all cases are as the "experts" reckon.

It's just disgusting when doctors abort severly disfigured babies that haven't naturally been miscarried isn't it? They should get a fair chance at birth and living for a couple of minutes or it's just inhumane. They should at least to get to suffer a couple of minutes of life. :angry:

It's as stupid as not being allowed to be euthanised in certain places. If you are suffering, and know your life will end soon. Why is it that you can't decide for yourself, why do we not allow our pets to go through a great deal of suffering and die naturally of their ailments rather than put them down? Because it's cruel to let them suffer, yet when it comes to people they must be kept alive until the last minute possible no matter what suffering they might have to endure. That in my view is particularly abhorrent.

[Edbear]

It's just disgusting when doctors abort severly disfigured babies that haven't naturally been miscarried isn't it? They should get a fair chance at birth and living for a couple of minutes or it's just inhumane. They should at least to get to suffer a couple of minutes of life. :angry:

It's as stupid as not being allowed to be euthanised in certain places. If you are suffering, and know your life will end soon. Why is it that you can't decide for yourself, why do we not allow our pets to go through a great deal of suffering and die naturally of their ailments rather than put them down? Because it's cruel to let them suffer, yet when it comes to people they must be kept alive until the last minute possible no matter what suffering they might have to endure. That in my view is particularly abhorrent.

Did you see the recent documentary on Thalidomide babies? How many such people do you know, or those with Down's Syndrome, or other deformities? I have said I have enormous sympathy for parents who have to face horrible situations and I'm wary of making judgements because I don't know all the facts and forces behind the scenes.

You're taking extreme examples of medical issues, away from the main topic which is abortion for the reason that the baby is unwanted. Somewhat different, no?

[superman]

Did you see the recent documentary on Thalidomide babies? How many such people do you know, or those with Down's Syndrome, or other deformities? I have said I have enormous sympathy for parents who have to face horrible situations and I'm wary of making judgements because I don't know all the facts and forces behind the scenes.

You're taking extreme examples of medical issues, away from the main topic which is abortion for the reason that the baby is unwanted. Somewhat different, no?

Yeah, I especially have sympathy for those 45 year olds who have babies and then end up with a down syndrome child, poor buggers. :blink:

The topic was parents shouldn't have to have the legal right to know and that it should be the daughters decision to decide whether to tell her parents or not and that it shouldn't require parental consent to get an abortion.

[avgas]

What a bunch of crap, what teenager is insane that wasn't before puberty? The only thing the chemical imbalance does is make you horny as fuck, or angry as fuck. There's no sudden change in morality. You don't all of a sudden think it's perfectly fine to rape that chick because of how horny you are...
Do you even remember being a teenager? Were you really that much of a knob you think you were crazy? :facepalm:
Yep. Actually worse. Retrospective is a great thing. When you grow up you will learn. While rape was not really in my mind at the time - unprotected sex, drugs, EXCESSIVE speed, fights and ending my life were all up for grabs.

Morality is a matter of perspective. Some believe its immoral to move anothers motorbike here. Others think that is choice is important. Shit some here think we should defend all motorcyclists, regardless of their actions. Whats your moral high ground?

But I miss your whole point are you saying teenagers are not chemically imbalance

But yeah in retrospective, I was losing the plot for a little there. However at the time I thought everything was normal with me and the world was fucked up.......I think that is the definition of crazy.........

[superman]

Yep. Actually worse. Retrospective is a great thing. When you grow up you will learn. While rape was not really in my mind at the time - unprotected sex, drugs, EXCESSIVE speed, fights and ending my life were all up for grabs.

Your perspective on your teenage life in no way reflects on average teenage behaviour. Do you really think the actions you took were because of your body being put through puberty, or the puberty just amplified whatever psychological issues you already faced?

I had a name for those people at school that liked to fight and make stupid decisions, jocks.

[avgas]

Of course, I'm 19. I've had excessive amounts of alcohol just like anyone else.

Does that mean I should have had a spur of the moment fight as well?

Blaming alcohol for stupid decisions is retarded, I've been stoned out of my mind and drunk at the same time and manage to shag fine with a condom on. Though funnily enough it broke... so she felt compelled to get the morning after pill just in case.

There's no excuses.
Heh thats not wasted.....
I once urinated on an ATM, in front of a security camera. And ended up on the national news...........I probably slept with a random chick that night.......can't remember much
thats wasted

[avgas]

Your perspective on your teenage life in no way reflects on average teenage behaviour. Do you really think the actions you took were because of your body being put through puberty, or the puberty just amplified whatever psychological issues you already faced?

I had a name for those people at school that liked to fight and make stupid decisions, jocks.
Hahaha no not a jock. Far from it actually.

All I say is don't assume your life is the same as everyone elses (I certainly don't)...........sometimes people do dumb stuff include wanting to keep a baby for the first month then suddenly realize that its not such a brilliant idea. To give them some kind of exit clause may give more life than the life its taking away.
Leave them some kind of choice. Don't claim to know it all at 19.

[superman]

Hahaha no not a jock. Far from it actually.

All I say is don't assume your life is the same as everyone elses (I certainly don't)...........sometimes people do dumb stuff include wanting to keep a baby for the first month then suddenly realize that its not such a brilliant idea. To give them some kind of exit clause may give more life than the life its taking away.
Leave them some kind of choice. Don't claim to know it all at 19.

Good stuff. I'm all for the choice! Everyone should get to make their own choice on the matter if it arises. :yes:

But seriously did you have some kind of traumatic event that made you act the way you did... someone touched you in the wrong way? Bullied at school? Or you really want to just blame it on being young and reckless... It's saying things like "young and reckless" and that it's something that occurs just because of age that makes parents want to be the ones to make the choice over the 17 year old pregnant daughters decision.

[Edbear]

Yeah, I especially have sympathy for those 45 year olds who have babies and then end up with a down syndrome child, poor buggers. :blink:

The topic was parents shouldn't have to have the legal right to know and that it should be the daughters decision to decide whether to tell her parents or not and that it shouldn't require parental consent to get an abortion.

Correct and I think we tend to agree on this, that if the parents have a good enough relationship with their children such a legal argument is entirely moot.

[avgas]

Or you really want to just blame it on being young and reckless...
Ah I see your point now.
To be honest I put my experiences down as just that (but I guess it could happen to old people - but being young makes it easier). I wanted to learn things by doing them. I am not saying that I would have stabbed something or raped someone "just for the sake of it".......but when your young you are on the whole learning path so stuff like sex is a part of it.

I imagine many people told you already that riding a bike could get you killed......well I got told that not wearing a condom could get some chick pregnant..... took me a while to actually thinking what that meant.

I still ride bikes regardless. Its my last "Fuck you world - I'm gonna do it anyway, try and kill me!"
I just ride slower :yes:, oh and the sex with no condom thing doesn't matter anymore as I am happily married and kids are choice now.

But 10 years ago, rooting some chick without a condom or doing 200kph on the SH was good fun according to my brain. I knew better......but FUN > Being reasonable. I imagine some chicks were the same as they were happy to do both those things.......however a month or so later, would have been kinda cool if they were allowed to have an abortion without asking parents (their choice of course).
As for crashing a vehicle at 100+km.........ain't no backup plan for that unfortunately. Which is probably why I feel old and agree with katman far too much.......I would much rather debate on whether abortion is ok than decide where roadside crosses should go......

[marie_speeds]

I suppose the good thing about schools picking and choosing what they will or won't tell parents and setting this sort of precedent, is that the next time an issue of uniform, books, behaviour, trips, school fees etc etc comes up I will gladly tell school to go ask the counsellor for their opinion, money and consent.....


And as I found out recently being a teen today is so different!

My 17 year old nephew was recently telling me about "A" who used to live around the corner from me as a child before moving....well the other weekend at a party she first went off into the bushes in back yard with this guy, then a short time later she was off with this other guy and so forth etc etc etc :shit: The list went on..... :sick: All up 8 guys in one night at this party.... when I commented about what the hell is wrong with her and where are her friends in all this, he replied "all the girls from school do it like that every weekend so why would they bother wondering where she was, and most likely they were off with other guys somewhere else anyway"

I then asked if he partook and got a very guarded and unconvincing nooooo.... He then openly admitted yes but that she and all the other girls at his school were sluts and "it's not like I'd marry a slapper like that". I then proceeded to tell him that if he made me a grand aunt before I was 40 years old I would make his life not worth living.......

[ducatilover]

Sex is ugly hippie shit.

[Edbear]

I suppose the good thing about schools picking and choosing what they will or won't tell parents and setting this sort of precedent, is that the next time an issue of uniform, books, behaviour, trips, school fees etc etc comes up I will gladly tell school to go ask the counsellor for their opinion, money and consent.....


And as I found out recently being a teen today is so different!

My 17 year old nephew was recently telling me about "A" who used to live around the corner from me as a child before moving....well the other weekend at a party she first went off into the bushes in back yard with this guy, then a short time later she was off with this other guy and so forth etc etc etc :shit: The list went on..... :sick: All up 8 guys in one night at this party.... when I commented about what the hell is wrong with her and where are her friends in all this, he replied "all the girls from school do it like that every weekend so why would they bother wondering where she was, and most likely they were off with other guys somewhere else anyway"

I then asked if he partook and got a very guarded and unconvincing nooooo.... He then openly admitted yes but that she and all the other girls at his school were sluts and "it's not like I'd marry a slapper like that". I then proceeded to tell him that if he made me a grand aunt before I was 40 years old I would make his life not worth living.......

Did you also point out that he was effectively also having sex with all the other guys as well and the incidence of STD's is high and rising in NZ, particularly Gonorrhea and show him its symptoms?

[superman]

Did you also point out that he was effectively also having sex with all the other guys as well and the incidence of STD's is high and rising in NZ, particularly Gonorrhea and show him its symptoms?

Lol yeah.... :sick:

Stick with a virgin and it shall be sweet :innocent:

[ducatilover]

Lol yeah.... :sick:

Stick with a virgin and it shall be sweet :innocent:
You can....I much prefer one that knows what to do with a knob

[superman]

You can....I much prefer one that knows what to do with a knob

No, no. You don't see the main benefit. You can teach her to do things exactly as you like it, rather than receive possible bad habits off previous "freaky" bf's! :yes:

[Edbear]

No, no. You don't see the main benefit. You can teach her to do things exactly as you like it, rather than receive possible bad habits off previous "freaky" bf's! :yes:

Not to mention what the previous BF's have transmitted along the way...

[ducatilover]

No, no. You don't see the main benefit. You can teach her to do things exactly as you like it, rather than receive possible bad habits off previous "freaky" bf's! :yes:
Nah, I like variety and a challenge.....
Sometimes it's worrying when a finger gets rammed up the old you-know-what, but, anything goes in the heat of the moment :innocent:

[imdying]

Extreme examples or not, it highlights why your position is ridiculous.


We are well beyond the point where the population needs in increase in numbers. Humans are just becoming a parasite that is going to overpower the ecosystem.

It shouldn't be about whether to allow abortions or not, or should be about when are we going to instigate a system that requires a license to breed. Not that the license should neccesarily be difficult to obtain, but breeding willy nilly is going to go pear shaped sooner rather than later.

[scracha]

with a condom on. Though funnily enough it broke...

There's no excuses.

Whatever. Broke = fell off

[Geeen]

Sex is ugly hippie shit.

Depends how much you get :whistle:

[scracha]

Will never alter the fact that it is the most inhumane and cruel thing one can do to another human being. Stats don't make up for the pain and suffering and callous disregard for the innocent victims.

There are plenty worse things you can do to a human being than kill them.

The most humane thing you could do in a lot of countries is hand out condoms, birth control pills and provide free abortions.


http://ultraorange.net/media/2007/09/wa-child-mortality-down.jpg

[\m/]

Up the bum, no babies.

[The Stranger]

This lady honestly needs to pull her head in, if her daughter was uncomfortable telling her mum then she needs to realise that she's put the relationship in a state where the daughter isn't willing to communicate. Be pissed off at yourself, not at the law there to protect your daughter.

Not commenting on the abortion aspect, but your argument re the relationship between mother and daughter is possibly over simplistic.

Perhaps the daughter has so much respect for the mother she doesn't want to be seen to be letting her down. Respect is a powerful thing and kids will often go to great lengths to respect their parents views - or what they perceive to be respect for their parents.

This is not a bad thing nor a sign of bad parenting.

[gatch]

As it is right now, I think I would be extremely disappointed, if my daughter chose not to talk to me regarding an abortion.

If it was a lighthearted decision made with little thought I would be further disappointed.

At the end of it all however I have no moral objection to these girls making this decision. As has been said numerous times, it's all a matter of perspective. I don't believe that embryo is a person. Certainly until it begins to some kind of mental activity, it is not a person. It has the potential to be a person, but is not one yet.

I think not giving people the chance to decide for themselves is more inhumane, than removing an embryo.

[Geeen]

Not commenting on the abortion aspect, but your argument re the relationship betweem mother and daughter is possibly over simplistic.

Perhaps the daughter has so much respect for the mother she doesn't want to be seen to be letting her down. Respect is a powerful thing and kids will often go to great lengths to respect their parents views - or what they perceive to be respect for their parents.

This is not a bad thing nor a sign of bad parenting.

This is true, But something you realise AFTER having kids. Good take on the situation by the way. 'Abortion' seems to be a word that turns objectiveness off.

[Edbear]

There are plenty worse things you can do to a human being than kill them.

The most humane thing you could do in a lot of countries is hand out condoms, birth control pills and provide free abortions.


http://ultraorange.net/media/2007/09/wa-child-mortality-down.jpg

Man's unhumanity to Man is well documented and we can see it even in this country. Torture is abhorrent yet a daily practice in many places. That will never alter the fact that abortion is no different and should be as abhorrent and should disgust us as much. No animal, let alone human being, deserves to be treated so callously and cruelly.

[The Stranger]

As it is right now, I think I would be extremely disappointed, if my daughter chose not to talk to me regarding an abortion.


So were she to want one would you support her and respect her decision?

Would you be disapointed if she had one and you never ever knew about it? I mean, how could you be disapointed if you never even found out?

[gatch]

So were she to want one would you support her and respect her decision?

Would you be disapointed if she had one and you never ever knew about it? I mean, how could you be disapointed if you never even found out?

Ultimately the decision would rest with her. I'd like to think I'd support my kid in all efforts.. Excusing of course mass murder/rape or politics..

Well obviously if I never knew it would moot, innit.

However if you were to find out later on, 5 yrs, 10 yrs, 60 yrs later, whatever. It would make me feel as if I had let my kid down, like I hadn't made a good enough relationship to be able to talk about anything.

[superman]

Not commenting on the abortion aspect, but your argument re the relationship between mother and daughter is possibly over simplistic.

Perhaps the daughter has so much respect for the mother she doesn't want to be seen to be letting her down. Respect is a powerful thing and kids will often go to great lengths to respect their parents views - or what they perceive to be respect for their parents.

This is not a bad thing nor a sign of bad parenting.

Lol, now that must be an epic minority that want to follow their exact parents wishes during teenagehood. :yes:

So you're saying... the parents don't want their kids having sex. The kids respect them so much, but will have sex behind their parents back without saying anything? How is that respect?... That's just another typical relationship issue which shouldn't exist between parents and their offspring.

I don't agree with quite a lot of my parents positions, but they have lead me to believe they don't mind that I have my own opinion on things. Not conveying that to your children and instead just coming across with your views and not telling your kids they can have their own opinion is... well it's not bad parenting... but it's not good parenting either.

[racefactory]

More people need to be educated about the benefits of anal intercourse. The world has been practising this form of love-making as we call it since time began in response to the issue being discussed here.

[imdying]

That will never alter the fact that abortion is no different and should be as abhorrent and should disgust us as much. No animal, let alone human being, deserves to be treated so callously and cruelly.Fact? That's not a fact, that's an opinion. As far as not deserving... how so? What did they do to earn that honour? Just because they're human? Because they were born? Because they were conceived? Gimme a break :facepalm:

[superman]

Nah, I like variety and a challenge.....
Sometimes it's worrying when a finger gets rammed up the old you-know-what, but, anything goes in the heat of the moment :innocent:

My friend told me a story once of a girl who surprised him with a strap-on :shit:

[oneofsix]

My friend told me a story once of a girl who surprised him with a strap-on :shit:

talk about letting you know the size does matter :shit:

[Luckylegs]

For those who don't know how to Google...

http://www.abortion.gen.nz/procedures/index.html
http://www.americanpregnancy.org/unplannedpregnancy/abortionprocedures.html

So far no-one has said how reading the facts of the procedure has affected them. Or commented on the legal anomolies I've pointed out.

Here you go then. NOTHING, yep read it, sounded unpleasant for all concerned but it certainly didnt invoke the type of emotive language youve been posting. To be clear it didnt in the slightest change my views (pro choice)

...for context, i read in disbelief and overwhelming sadness about the five year old caught up in the drama on the gold coast/nsw and this by far invoked more feelings thinking about what she may have gone through (eg mental anguish etc)

[Edbear]

Here you go then. NOTHING, yep read it, sounded unpleasant for all concerned but it certainly didnt invoke the type of emotive language youve been posting. To be clear it didnt in the slightest change my views (pro choice)

...for context, i read in disbelief and overwhelming sadness about the five year old caught up in the drama on the gold coast/nsw and this by far invoked more feelings thinking about what she may have gone through (eg mental anguish etc)

"Pro Choice"? What about the poor baby's choice? Innocent victim killed in the most painful and brabaric way. You are truly heartless.

This is not just personal opinion, this is absolute fact.

Fact 1. The rights and health of the baby are not considered at all.

Fact 2. The killing is done without regard for the pain and suffering it causes to the child and the methods would never be lawful for a human outside the womb.

Fact 3. In the law is hypocritical as the killing is lawful based on whether the baby is wanted or not. If the baby is wanted the killer can be charged with murder or manslaughter, if not wanted the killer is protected by the law. No mention in law as to the age of the embryo or foetus at the time. So why can someone be charged with murder in the case of killing a foetus of any age?

[Luckylegs]

"Pro Choice"? What about the poor baby's choice? Innocent victim killed in the most painful and brabaric way. You are truly heartless.

This is not just personal opinion, this is absolute fact.

Fact 1. The rights and health of the baby are not considered at all.

Fact 2. The killing is done without regard for the pain and suffering it causes to the child and the methods would never be lawful for a human outside the womb.

Fact 3. In the law is hypocritical as the killing is lawful based on whether the baby is wanted or not. If the baby is wanted the killer can be charged with murder or manslaughter, if not wanted the killer is protected by the law. No mention in law as to the age of the embryo or foetus at the time. So why can someone be charged with murder in the case of killing a foetus of any age?

FACT 4. Youre right, theyre all facts. That the said facts are a problem or are wrong, is your opinion!

[Edbear]

FACT 4. Youre right, theyre all facts. That the said facts are a problem or are wrong, is your opinion!

Of course! Why is torture, murder, child abuse, armed robbery, bashings, drunk driving, rape, done? Because in the opinion of the perpetrator it's okay, of course!

Is this form of injustice, murder and torture okay in your opinion..?

[superman]

Of course! Why is torture, murder, child abuse, armed robbery, bashings, drunk driving, rape, done? Because in the opinion of the perpetrator it's okay, of course!

Is this form of injustice, murder and torture okay in your opinion..?

Murder - morally wrong in certain situations, but murder can certainly be justified morally. IE you murder the dude who murdered and raped your wife and child.

Robbery - you are poor, and you steal to feed your starving family? Not morally wrong.

Drunk Driving - idiocy...

Torture - very questionable to ever be morally right... though I guess if you had to torture a mass murderer to gain information to stop a future pre-meditated murder it becomes more iffy...

Child Abuse - is smacking abuse?

Bashings - beat up the person who put a hand on your wife?

Rape - no moral justification for this one ever... though I guess if a child molester gets raped in jail I'd perhaps turn a blind eye...

Stupid examples... but I think you get my point. Such acts aren't black and white wrong, there are all sorts of cases when certain things could become quite justified. Abortion especially in early stages is extremely justifiable.

[Luckylegs]

Of course! Why is torture, murder, child abuse, armed robbery, bashings, drunk driving, rape, done? Because in the opinion of the perpetrator it's okay, of course!

Is this form of injustice, murder and torture okay in your opinion..?

Apparently so

[Edbear]

Murder - morally wrong in certain situations, but murder can certainly be justified morally. IE you murder the dude who murdered and raped your wife and child.

Robbery - you are poor, and you steal to feed your starving family? Not morally wrong.

Drunk Driving - idiocy...

Torture - very questionable to ever be morally right... though I guess if you had to torture a mass murderer to gain information to stop a future pre-meditated murder it becomes more iffy...

Child Abuse - is smacking abuse?

Bashings - beat up the person who put a hand on your wife?

Rape - no moral justification for this one ever... though I guess if a child molester gets raped in jail I'd perhaps turn a blind eye...

Stupid examples... but I think you get my point. Such acts aren't black and white wrong, there are all sorts of cases when certain things could become quite justified.

Except in this situation, we are talking about a specific act for a specific purpose. In my opinion, there is no justification for treating an innocent human being in this manner, regardless of the circumstances. This is the ultimate form of child abuse and there are alternatives that can care for the mother and the child, no matter how sad the situation is.

Even in the case of pregnancy by rape, the baby does not deserve to be treated in such an inhumane manner. Certainly support the victim mother, even get someone else to look after the baby if she can't handle it, but don't murder an innocent child in the most barbaric ways possible.

[avgas]

My 17 year old nephew was recently telling me about "A" who used to live around the corner from me as a child before moving....well the other weekend at a party she first went off into the bushes in back yard with this guy, then a short time later she was off with this other guy and so forth etc etc etc :shit: The list went on..... :sick: All up 8 guys in one night at this party.... when I commented about what the hell is wrong with her and where are her friends in all this, he replied "all the girls from school do it like that every weekend so why would they bother wondering where she was, and most likely they were off with other guys somewhere else anyway"

I then asked if he partook and got a very guarded and unconvincing nooooo.... He then openly admitted yes but that she and all the other girls at his school were sluts and "it's not like I'd marry a slapper like that". I then proceeded to tell him that if he made me a grand aunt before I was 40 years old I would make his life not worth living.......
Should have asked her if she was hot.

Its a sad day if they are talking about women like that.............................................. ....................................





















.................................................. .......... if they are ugly. No standards these days.

[avgas]

much prefer one that knows what to do with a knob
Very handy having a woman to open doors for you. But I prefer the hot ones you can have sex with.
When I am 80 and invalid I'll look for one that can open doors for me. Or one that can change a bed pan even.

[imdying]

don't murder an innocent child in the most barbaric ways possible.Correct, religion does not like competition.

[The Stranger]

So you're saying... the parents don't want their kids having sex.


Whoa now I am really intrigued. Please tell me what part of my post did you extrapolate to that conclusion?

As a parent of 4 (all as yet unmarried (as far as I know)) I can honestly say I'm more than happy for my kids to be having sex.
Guess what we did as youfs? This is going to come as a shock. That's right, we drank piss, took drugs and rooted. This often comes as a surprise to youf, but these things weren't invented just when you hit puberty, nor just when I hit puberty.
I'm sure my parents did the same (well at least once).

Still, I do hope they respect me and I do try to earn their respect.
Part of that (for me at least) is respecting their decisions and their right to choose their own course.
Part of being young is to rebel. This is (in my view) a normal, natural and indeed healthy process. It is a process which produces evolution in society. Without this you get the kind of situation where say aboriginal society in Australia didn't evolve (FA) over a period of 200,000 years.
Why would I wish to curtail what I see as a normal, natural process?

So go ahead, bonk your self silly if you like.

[superman]

Except in this situation, we are talking about a specific act for a specific purpose. In my opinion, there is no justification for treating an innocent human being in this manner, regardless of the circumstances. This is the ultimate form of child abuse and there are alternatives that can care for the mother and the child, no matter how sad the situation is.

Even in the case of pregnancy by rape, the baby does not deserve to be treated in such an inhumane manner. Certainly support the victim mother, even get someone else to look after the baby if she can't handle it, but don't murder an innocent child in the most barbaric ways possible.

Stop calling it a baby. You're humanising something that isn't a human. It's going to turn into a human. Does something that has no mental activity deserve the chance to have life? Well, it doesn't really matter. Could as easily say by having the child she decides later in life to not have a child she would have done had she had an abortion. Didn't that potential baby deserve a chance at life? It's a non-argument. It's as inhumane as killing a plant by aborting before the brain has formed.

[superman]

Whoa now I am really intrigued. Please tell me what part of my post did you extrapolate to that conclusion?

So go ahead, bonk your self silly if you like.

I was trying to understand that hypothetical situation you set forth. About the girl respecting the parents too much to want to tell them she got pregnant.

So the daughter feels as though she's let her mother down... by getting pregnant, and will try to avoid her mother finding out about the pregnancy and the possiblility of an abortion? I still think that would be remedied by an open relationship in which the mother has made it clear that whatever happens she's there for her daughter.

I often hear from friends who's mothers have told them if they get pregnant they'll get booted out. Which doesn't help at all. For some reason parents talk of contraception, but some seem to stop there and never talk about the possibility of a pregnancy and what to do in such a situation.

[Edbear]

Stop calling it a baby. You're humanising something that isn't a human. It's going to turn into a human. Does something that has no mental activity deserve the chance to have life? Well, it doesn't really matter. Could as easily say by having the child she decides later in life to not have a child she would have done had she had an abortion. Didn't that potential baby deserve a chance at life? It's a non-argument. It's as inhumane as killing a plant by aborting before the brain has formed.

1/ Most abortions are performed well beyond 4wks even it you accept it before then.

2/ Can't you see the hypocrisy of the Law? Why can one be charged regardless of the age of the foetus if it's not a human?

3/ On that note, it is a human by definition.

[Luckylegs]

Stop calling it a baby. You're humanising something that isn't a human. It's going to turn into a human. Does something that has no mental activity deserve the chance to have life? Well, it doesn't really matter. Could as easily say by having the child she decides later in life to not have a child she would have done had she had an abortion. Didn't that potential baby deserve a chance at life? It's a non-argument. It's as inhumane as killing a plant by aborting before the brain has formed.

Well put. And its the lack of mental activity that means i dont see the 'abuse' that ed talks about

[oneofsix]

Stop calling it a baby. You're humanising something that isn't a human. It's going to turn into a human. Does something that has no mental activity deserve the chance to have life? Well, it doesn't really matter. Could as easily say by having the child she decides later in life to not have a child she would have done had she had an abortion. Didn't that potential baby deserve a chance at life? It's a non-argument. It's as inhumane as killing a plant by aborting before the brain has formed.

Don't give a shit about the rest of this fucked up debate but it is human. The egg was human, the sperm was human, the embryo or fetus or whatever you want to call it is human. Also remember that embryo, fetus, baby, child adult are all stages in the life cycle. What you are trying to say is it is ok to terminate a human life at certain stages because certain functions haven't yet developed. How come the same rules aren't allowed to be applied when these same function cease to work? Oops new debate :shutup:

[avgas]

How come the same rules aren't allowed to be applied when these same function cease to work? Oops new debate :shutup:
Good point
kill all the vegies!:drinkup:

[avgas]

2/ Can't you see the hypocrisy of the Law? Why can one be charged regardless of the age of the foetus if it's not a human?
Not really. Name a legal document it has.

I have seen whole objects disappear in the eyes of the law simply because they have no legal documentation.

[The Stranger]

I was trying to understand that hypothetical situation you set forth. About the girl respecting the parents too much to want to tell them she got pregnant.


This is the sorry of Jonny and Mary (not their real names).
Now Jonny had his license for only 1 of the last 4 years. He's a massive stoner, never home (well when he is it's only to play video games anyway), always on the piss, out with the boys etc. Nice kid, but not exactly Mr responsible - far from it actually.
Jonny gets Mary pregnant, out squirts pup number 1. Fark!! NO ONE can believe the change in Jonny. This guy is Mr straight, he's changing nappies and shit and completely head over heals for pup number 1. Works hard out saves like hell and squirts out number 2. Honestly big props to the guy, I thought he was an OK kid, but I got huge respect for him now.
Well that's as far as the story goes right now.

Lets travel into the future and we'll see where they end up.
Into the delorean.
So Jonny is soooo proud smitten that he's set this awesome example for his kids. He's always provided for them, he's taken them fishing, to sports games and been there when they rode their first motorcycle. He's one proud dad - and his girls know it. His kids love him to bits and they each have a strong mutual respect for each other.

Now here's where things go awry.
Number 1, being the rebel (as per my last post) goes to a party and well use your imagination, anyway a little while later discovers she's pregnant. Now in her heart of hearts she knows dad has always been there for her and she loves him to pieces. But for a variety of reasons decides against telling him. For a start, she doesn't want him to be disappointed (even though he wouldn't). She's embarrassed at the situation and wants as few people to know as possible, so why tell. And what harm could possibly come if dad didn't know anyway - I mean dad's infallible would he really understand so why need he even know?

Dad has (unwittingly) through his love and respect created an air of authority that he had not intention of. He was a serious stoner, speeder and generally anti social yob like the rest of us.
The irony here is that had he actually remained a yob the daughter perhaps would have been more comfortable telling him, but also possibly more likely to be in the situation in the first place.

How's that for a hypothetical situation?

On a personal note from me to you. Keep an open mind, just because you haven't experienced or can't conceive of a certain situation doesn't mean it's not a reality.

[avgas]

I often hear from friends who's mothers have told them if they get pregnant they'll get booted out. Which doesn't help at all. For some reason parents talk of contraception, but some seem to stop there and never talk about the possibility of a pregnancy and what to do in such a situation.
Yeahno.

Once again ideal family is not every family.
Would be good if family could talk things through like abortion but sometimes a completely transparent relationship with parents doesn't happen.........so having a "behind your back" thing while evil could be a necessary evil in some cases.
While I would like to think my (future) daughter could talk to me about things.......I would respect that some things she won't be about to talk to me about.
I still haven't told my dad about the time I stole his bike and hit my first 200....... prob never will. Doesn't mean to say they I have a bad relationship with him. Actually have a bloody awesome one. But do you tell your best mates or closet family EVERYTHING?

[avgas]

This is the sorry of Jonny and Mary (not their real names).
Ya bloody yob. Your supposed to say it was a mate of a mate so we couldn't guess. :scooter:

[The Stranger]

Ya bloody yob. Your supposed to say it was a mate of a mate so we couldn't guess. :scooter:

Hey, I got 4 kids and am still irresponsible.

[Edbear]

Yeahno.

Once again ideal family is not every family.
Would be good if family could talk things through like abortion but sometimes a completely transparent relationship with parents doesn't happen.........so having a "behind your back" thing while evil could be a necessary evil in some cases.
While I would like to think my (future) daughter could talk to me about things.......I would respect that some things she won't be about to talk to me about.
I still haven't told my dad about the time I stole his bike and hit my first 200....... prob never will. Doesn't mean to say they I have a bad relationship with him. Actually have a bloody awesome one. But do you tell your best mates or closet family EVERYTHING?

You have a closet family...? :blink:

[scracha]

Even in the case of pregnancy by rape, the baby does not deserve to be treated in such an inhumane manner. Certainly support the victim mother, even get someone else to look after the baby if she can't handle it, but don't murder an innocent child in the most barbaric ways possible.

So if I was a evil barsteward, raped your missus and got her up the duff, you'd effectively turture her in the most barbaric way possible inside her own body for the next 9 months and well beyond? Bullshit.

Foetus != baby.

Females who can't get abortions will just go back to back street butchers, coat-hangers, suicide, overdoses, alcohol and drugs. Regardless of your moral opinion on the matter, legalised abortion is the lesser of two "evils" (as you call it).

[Geeen]

I don't agree with quite a lot of my parents positions

You know what positions your parents use?!? :sick::blink:

Just how close is your family??

[awayatc]

Life is hard enough for normal mortals.
Unwanted and unloved "babies" have no chance and will burden society....

Even Godbotherers.....

Better pray You, or your beloved wife and children dont run into a the result of what you are preaching for....

Your heads are so far up your arses that a fart seems to smell like a breath of fresh air...

[Usarka]

So if I was a evil barsteward, raped your missus and got her up the duff, you'd effectively turture her in the most barbaric way possible inside her own body for the next 9 months and well beyond? Bullshit.


And then you'd be locked up in a cell for 20 years being raped by bubba. Because that's really humane. :blink:

[The Stranger]

And then you'd be locked up in a cell for 20 years being raped by bubba. Because that's really humane. :blink:

Hello, New Zealand, 20 months - max.
Actually, unless he was speeding from the scene of the crime he's unlikely to even get caught.

[superman]

How come the same rules aren't allowed to be applied when these same function cease to work? Oops new debate :shutup:

Yes... or that you know certain functions will cease to work some time very soon and you wish to... :bye:

[Ladydragon]

I agree with that, abortion law in NZ is stupid.

I think you can abort 20 weeks in (the feminists at uni think this isn't long enough). Babies can live from 20 weeks in some cases!!!!

And you have to either be very very stupid or get raped to become pregnant. The symptoms show pretty quickly when pregnancy has occurred, so 20 weeks?! Fuck off. No one should need that amount of time.

It's best to have a termination when you are in the second trimester any further than 3 months the baby starts forming and can be dangerous for your health complications can happen to you.

[Ladydragon]

1/ Most abortions are performed well beyond 4wks even it you accept it before then.

2/ Can't you see the hypocrisy of the Law? Why can one be charged regardless of the age of the foetus if it's not a human?

3/ On that note, it is a human by definition.

I agree at three months if you see it on a ultra sound scan fingers,arms,legs etc are starting to form so basicly you can call it a human not a foetus anymore

[Goblin]

2/ Can't you see the hypocrisy of the Law? Why can one be charged regardless of the age of the foetus if it's not a human?

3/ On that note, it is a human by definition.

In that case, what about IVF? Do all those frozen little embryos deserve to be treated like "humans" on the shelf, waiting for a chance at existance? What happens when they're not needed? Is it cruel and barbaric to wash them down the sink when they're no longer needed?

[oneofsix]

In that case, what about IVF? Do all those frozen little embryos deserve to be treated like "humans" on the shelf, waiting for a chance at existance? What happens when they're not needed? Is it cruel and barbaric to wash them down the sink when they're no longer needed?

They are all human. If you have accepted a situation that creeps you out because the cells are human, no matter how many times they have divided and what they have formed themselves into deal with it. Doesn't change the fact that they are human cells and therefore human. For the anti abortionist its easy to accept they are human because they can align abortion with murder, the pro-abortionists have to deal with the issue of when is it ok to take a human life. Have fun

[Luckylegs]

They are all human. If you have accepted a situation that creeps you out because the cells are human, no matter how many times they have divided and what they have formed themselves into deal with it. Doesn't change the fact that they are human cells and therefore human. For the anti abortionist its easy to accept they are human because they can align abortion with murder, the pro-abortionists have to deal with the issue of when is it ok to take a human life. Have fun

Not really! Its the anti crew who have the issues to overcome. The pro abortion people have the law on their side so have very little to prove!

[superman]

Not really! Its the anti crew who have the issues to overcome. The pro abortion people have the law on their side so have very little to prove!

Yay for our secular nation :woohoo:

[Edbear]

In that case, what about IVF? Do all those frozen little embryos deserve to be treated like "humans" on the shelf, waiting for a chance at existance? What happens when they're not needed? Is it cruel and barbaric to wash them down the sink when they're no longer needed?


They are all human. If you have accepted a situation that creeps you out because the cells are human, no matter how many times they have divided and what they have formed themselves into deal with it. Doesn't change the fact that they are human cells and therefore human. For the anti abortionist its easy to accept they are human because they can align abortion with murder, the pro-abortionists have to deal with the issue of when is it ok to take a human life. Have fun

Wot he said.

Personally I believe in the sanctity of human life. Embryo's are as human as you and I
and deserve to be treated as a human should be. We can go off into tangents of capital punishment and animals which is a different scenario.

IMHO, IVF treatment may be acceptable if the egg and sperm are from the parents and fertilisation is tried one at a time without banking fertilised embryo's for the future then "discarding" them if not required. That is my view.

Punishment? I do believe basically in an eye for an eye position, but too many times an innocent person has died through a miscarriage of justice, so capital punishment is fraught with uncertainty at times. SHould I catch someone I the act of attacking my family and he died as a result of my intervention, I may not grieve too much.

Animals? Slaughter for food if done as humanely as possible is acceptable. Culling pests, again if humane is okay. Saying that, killing a life is by definition a violent act, and the "rules" are not always black and white.

These are my own opinions, others may agree or not. But human life is unique and special, that's why you have the terms, "Human kind" and "The animal kingdom" as separate.

[Luckylegs]

Not really! Its the anti crew who have the issues to overcome. The pro abortion people have the law on their side so have very little to prove!

I guess those who actually perform them, may have more of a dilemma

[Edbear]

I guess those who actually perform them, may have more of a dilemma

Some are hardened and callous, others leave the profession and have nightmares. I have read personal accounts from both sides. All recognise a moral aspect to abortion.

[Luckylegs]

Some are hardened and callous, others leave the profession and have nightmares. I have read personal accounts from both sides. All recognise a moral aspect to abortion.

Why must you demonize those who dont agree with you. Your calling those who havnt left the profession callous is as ridiculous as you calling me heartless yesterday.

I accept a number may be callous but i doubt its all of em, they are simply able to do it because of different beliefs or how they rationalise it.

[Edbear]

Why must you demonize those who dont agree with you. Your calling those who havnt left the profession callous is as ridiculous as you calling me heartless yesterday.

I accept a number may be callous but i doubt its all of em, they are simply able to do it because of different beliefs or how they rationalise it.

Well, that is my own opinion, supported I may add by the comments of those directly involved, due to my viewing the mechanics of it as cruel and inhumane and that innocent humans, (and animals for that matter), never deserve to be treated in such a way.

[Luckylegs]

Well, that is my own opinion, supported I may add by the comments of those directly involved, due to my viewing the mechanics of it as cruel and inhumane and that innocent humans, (and animals for that matter), never deserve to be treated in such a way.

...by SOME of those involved Ed surely?. Potentially, i'll hazzard a guess by the ones youve CHOSEN to take heed of.

Anyway we're off topic so lets agree to disagree. Short of starting a poll theres not much more fun to be had here.

[avgas]

You have a closet family...? :blink:
Possibly. We don't talk about stuff like that.
Not even baby crunching.

[Paul in NZ]

The problem with these discussions is that the language used is always framed up in a way that either escalates the antagonisim or presents an extreme view. There is thus very little point in even discussing it because it will always end in an argument about fundemental belief systems.

I dont really believe in God but try to live a decent life with a view to leaving the place contributing more than I consumed.

Human life is not sacred. This is a religious ideal not a practical biological consideration. To this end, I believe that in some cases capital punishment is appropriate and that in certain cases, abortion appropriate.

Do embryo's have rights? Its arguable that they do BUT the mother and the rest of society also have rights which both precede and are more important.

Personally - in our case, Vicki fell pregnant very early in our relationship due to a failure of a then new birth control system. In our case, it was a financial disaster which has caused us to struggle more than we should have and placed us in a situation as young parents sooner than was ideal. In our case, abortion was an option offered but neither of us felt that our child should pay a price for our error and it has all worked out nicely. The critical factor was that both of us were agreed and committed to a course of action that we have not deviated from. For US it was the right choice but we cannot say that we would ever make that choice for another.

In my opinion - no woman, in her right mind and in a suitable environment where she has at least a small hope of adequately caring for an infant would choose an abortion. Holding this opinion, I see no point in objecting to a woman who has decided to have an abortion - it is NOT a decision anyone takes lightly and if they do, there is a high chance that they are going to be a very poor parent and society will have another problem it does not need.

The worst people in the world are the arsewipes that stand outside abortion clinics and hassle the poor women coming and going - it is highly highly distasteful and is one of the things that makes my blood boil.

[The Stranger]

The critical factor was that both of us were agreed and committed to a course of action that we have not deviated from.


Fortunate that, cause if you change you mind now it's called murder.



In my opinion - no woman, in her right mind and in a suitable environment where she has at least a small hope of adequately caring for an infant would choose an abortion.

Hate to be the one to tell you this, but, the only 2 abortions that I have real knowledge of were both taken for purely selfish reasons. One was to a fairly wealthy family, it would have been their 3rd and only 3 years beyond their last child. They openly say their decision was for selfish reasons.

But I tend to agree with your sentiment, however for different reasons. How can I judge what is right for someone else? I haven't walked a mile in their shoes. What right do I have to tell them what they can and can't do with their body, their mind, their life? Even in the cases above, what right do I have to judge them for their decisions?
I see a distinction between a viable entity able to function as a stand alone being and one still wholly reliant on it's mother.

[nodrog]

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[oneofsix]

At the risk of crashing two thread together I have a question for you wise ones. :corn:
With humans now interfering in the process by choosing to abort otherwise healthy embryos or fetuses (is this spell check broken? shouldn't that be a double i plural as its from Latin?) doesn't that mean that the key to the next step in evolution could be aborted? If you believe in evolution then part of the processes is the survival of a viable live form, some of the non-viable ones being aborted naturally, what we tend to call mis-carriages or still births but any that survive the natural process could then be part of the next evolution.
:corn:

[Ladydragon]

The problem with these discussions is that the language used is always framed up in a way that either escalates the antagonisim or presents an extreme view. There is thus very little point in even discussing it because it will always end in an argument about fundemental belief systems.

I dont really believe in God but try to live a decent life with a view to leaving the place contributing more than I consumed.

Human life is not sacred. This is a religious ideal not a practical biological consideration. To this end, I believe that in some cases capital punishment is appropriate and that in certain cases, abortion appropriate.

Do embryo's have rights? Its arguable that they do BUT the mother and the rest of society also have rights which both precede and are more important.

Personally - in our case, Vicki fell pregnant very early in our relationship due to a failure of a then new birth control system. In our case, it was a financial disaster which has caused us to struggle more than we should have and placed us in a situation as young parents sooner than was ideal. In our case, abortion was an option offered but neither of us felt that our child should pay a price for our error and it has all worked out nicely. The critical factor was that both of us were agreed and committed to a course of action that we have not deviated from. For US it was the right choice but we cannot say that we would ever make that choice for another.

In my opinion - no woman, in her right mind and in a suitable environment where she has at least a small hope of adequately caring for an infant would choose an abortion. Holding this opinion, I see no point in objecting to a woman who has decided to have an abortion - it is NOT a decision anyone takes lightly and if they do, there is a high chance that they are going to be a very poor parent and society will have another problem it does not need.

The worst people in the world are the arsewipes that stand outside abortion clinics and hassle the poor women coming and going - it is highly highly distasteful and is one of the things that makes my blood boil.

Finally i'm reading someones post and I agree with eveything that has been written my partner and I were in the same persion a long time ago I was studying at the time also the financial situation and also major heath reasons for me I was getting incedibly ill I take meds so I was runing out of those being so sick all the time..

I have no proberlem either with a women if they choose to have a termination like I am reading in alot of these posts that some people have written.

[jonbuoy]

Wot he said.

Personally I believe in the sanctity of human life. Embryo's are as human as you and I
and deserve to be treated as a human should be. We can go off into tangents of capital punishment and animals which is a different scenario.

IMHO, IVF treatment may be acceptable if the egg and sperm are from the parents and fertilisation is tried one at a time without banking fertilised embryo's for the future then "discarding" them if not required. That is my view.

Punishment? I do believe basically in an eye for an eye position, but too many times an innocent person has died through a miscarriage of justice, so capital punishment is fraught with uncertainty at times. SHould I catch someone I the act of attacking my family and he died as a result of my intervention, I may not grieve too much.

Animals? Slaughter for food if done as humanely as possible is acceptable. Culling pests, again if humane is okay. Saying that, killing a life is by definition a violent act, and the "rules" are not always black and white.

These are my own opinions, others may agree or not. But human life is unique and special, that's why you have the terms, "Human kind" and "The animal kingdom" as separate.

Is my sperm sacred human life as well? If so I´ve killed more than Hitler and Stalin put together.

[yachtie10]

The problem with these discussions is that the language used is always framed up in a way that either escalates the antagonisim or presents an extreme view. There is thus very little point in even discussing it because it will always end in an argument about fundemental belief systems.

I dont really believe in God but try to live a decent life with a view to leaving the place contributing more than I consumed.

Human life is not sacred. This is a religious ideal not a practical biological consideration. To this end, I believe that in some cases capital punishment is appropriate and that in certain cases, abortion appropriate.

Do embryo's have rights? Its arguable that they do BUT the mother and the rest of society also have rights which both precede and are more important.

Personally - in our case, Vicki fell pregnant very early in our relationship due to a failure of a then new birth control system. In our case, it was a financial disaster which has caused us to struggle more than we should have and placed us in a situation as young parents sooner than was ideal. In our case, abortion was an option offered but neither of us felt that our child should pay a price for our error and it has all worked out nicely. The critical factor was that both of us were agreed and committed to a course of action that we have not deviated from. For US it was the right choice but we cannot say that we would ever make that choice for another.

In my opinion - no woman, in her right mind and in a suitable environment where she has at least a small hope of adequately caring for an infant would choose an abortion. Holding this opinion, I see no point in objecting to a woman who has decided to have an abortion - it is NOT a decision anyone takes lightly and if they do, there is a high chance that they are going to be a very poor parent and society will have another problem it does not need.

The worst people in the world are the arsewipes that stand outside abortion clinics and hassle the poor women coming and going - it is highly highly distasteful and is one of the things that makes my blood boil.

A well reasoned and balanced post
unlike some
I am not pro abortion by the way I am pro choice
I do not presume to judge what other people should do

[jonbuoy]

Edbear has a point though, do a Google Image 12 week old fetus search :sick:

[alley cat]

Edbear has a point though, do a Google Image 12 week old fetus search :sick:

I was always very pro choice, i supported a couple of mates who ended up choosing to have a termination aound 12wks and had no real feelings about it all.... Until i saw my first 12wk ultrasound.
It WAS a baby. Wriggling and jiggling. Not the unmoving bean thingee i had previously imagined.

It is a womans choice but a crap one to have to make.

[Ladydragon]

I was always very pro choice, i supported a couple of mates who ended up choosing to have a termination aound 12wks and had no real feelings about it all.... Until i saw my first 12wk ultrasound.
It WAS a baby. Wriggling and jiggling. Not the unmoving bean thingee i had previously imagined.

It is a womans choice but a crap one to have to make.

I must admit even that it wasn't the right time and I was getting extremly sick (personal reasons) even that my partner and I both talked it through very carefulkly it was the hardest thing i've ever had to do would not want to have to do it again

[Edbear]

Is my sperm sacred human life as well? If so I´ve killed more than Hitler and Stalin put together.

It's good question, but until sperm and egg unite and conception occurs they are not classed as a human being. That's why, unlike say, the Catholic Church, I feel contraception, as far as preventing conception occurring, is acceptable, but the "Morning After Pill" is not. As always, others may agree or disagree, but that's my view.

[Edbear]

I was always very pro choice, i supported a couple of mates who ended up choosing to have a termination aound 12wks and had no real feelings about it all.... Until i saw my first 12wk ultrasound.
It WAS a baby. Wriggling and jiggling. Not the unmoving bean thingee i had previously imagined.

It is a womans choice but a crap one to have to make.

That is the tragedy about it. People are not told the truth and have no idea what they are doing.

Informed choice? Not in this case!

[jonbuoy]

I always thought abortions were carried out when the baby was still a cluster of cells. Clearly not an easy decision to be made. These are pretty graphic - you have been warned. :mellow:

http://www.clinicquotes.com/aborted%20picture%20index.htm

[hellokitty]

All I can say is that I hope no one here, involved in this argument, finds their daughter in this situation. You really don't know until you are there.

I was 17 and madly in love with my loser alcoholic boyfriend when I became pregnant (while on the pill). Obviously there must a God up there because I had a miscarriage. I would have kept the child because I thought I loved this loser and my life would have been like something out of "Once were warriors". My life, and therefore the child's life would have been a shitty hellhole.

Don't judge people, you have no idea of what they are going through, and what their lives are like.

As I found out earlier this year when I had a pregnancy scare - it is a hard decision, especially when you have doctors actively encouraging you to choose abortion over adoption.

[Edbear]

All I can say is that I hope no one here, involved in this argument, finds their daughter in this situation. You really don't know until you are there.

I was 17 and madly in love with my loser alcoholic boyfriend when I became pregnant (while on the pill). Obviously there must a God up there because I had a miscarriage. I would have kept the child because I thought I loved this loser and my life would have been like something out of "Once were warriors". My life, and therefore the child's life would have been a shitty hellhole.

Don't judge people, you have no idea of what they are going through, and what their lives are like.

As I found out earlier this year when I had a pregnancy scare - it is a hard decision, especially when you have doctors actively encouraging you to choose abortion over adoption.

Genuine question. Why did you have a "pregnancy scare"? You know what causes pregnancy, you know that no form of contraception is 100% effective. Unless you are raped, you know that having sex may result in pregnancy. If you are old enough to know these things you are old enough to take responsibility for your actions.

Therefore if you get pregnant you are repsonsible for the life you have created within you. Your decision.

[terbang]

All good suggestions, but how many 11 - 16 year old girls are comfortable telling their parents that they are having sex let alone talking about holistic contraception? A lot of Parents would would either go in to denial or try and enforce abstinence. Neither reaction is very helpfull. I hope that when my daughter get to this age group she can talk to us about these sort of things. At the end of the day we have to trust that we've raised to to think about what she is doing and make decisions that are right for her. The same goes for alcohol, we are trying to teach her that is just another drink. You drink it because you like the taste and not to get shitfaced. Peer pressure is a powerfull thing and so is the desire to conform, its a rare person in that age group who can go against the group mentality.

Man I ramble...:shutup:

Yes you do.
We have two teenage daughters, one (19) is coming out the other side and the other is 16. We have had our share of drunken rooting with dodgey boyfriends :facepalm:. No pregnancy yet...

Like most teenagers, hormones race through their bodies as they transition to adulthood and prepare to fly the nest. They are certainly capable of making some good decisions but are also prone to some really dumb ones too. So a bit of parental guidance through this period wouldn't be wrong.

Rachey and I have a good relationship with both of them and with open lines of communication (now theres a point), we will help them through this confusing period.

[hellokitty]

Genuine question. Why did you have a "pregnancy scare"? You know what causes pregnancy, you know that no form of contraception is 100% effective. Unless you are raped, you know that having sex may result in pregnancy. If you are old enough to know these things you are old enough to take responsibility for your actions.

Therefore if you get pregnant you are repsonsible for the life you have created within you. Your decision.

Luckily enough when I WAS raped, I didn't fall pregnant. Because funnily enough, I wasn't expecting to have sex that night as I was a virgin and was not planning on changing that at that time.

But however, this is many years later and it is now 2011.
My husband has had a vasectomy as I am unable to tolerate the pill or injections due to medical reasons. I didn't have a period for 3 months, we assumed perhaps the vasectomy has failed (the bits can grow back!)
As it turns out, I am not pregnant - I probably have a tumor instead - we are waiting for hospital time to confirm this.

If I had been pregnant then I would have had a baby - doctors seriously advised against it and were actively encouraging me to abort. My pro abortion husband said he would support me either way - as it turned out, he was disappointed when we found out I wasn't having a baby!

[Edbear]

Luckily enough when I WAS raped, I didn't fall pregnant. Because funnily enough, I wasn't expecting to have sex that night as I was a virgin and was not planning on changing that at that time.

But however, this is many years later and it is now 2011.
My husband has had a vasectomy as I am unable to tolerate the pill or injections due to medical reasons. I didn't have a period for 3 months, we assumed perhaps the vasectomy has failed (the bits can grow back!)
As it turns out, I am not pregnant - I probably have a tumor instead - we are waiting for hospital time to confirm this.

If I had been pregnant then I would have had a baby - doctors seriously advised against it and were actively encouraging me to abort. My pro abortion husband said he would support me either way - as it turned out, he was disappointed when we found out I wasn't having a baby!

Thanks for the expanation. You have my genuine sympathy and I really hope things turn out for the best. We all have been through tough times and experiences and some worse than others and it is too easy to judge without knowing all the facts. Not that I was judging you of course, it really was a genuine question and I appreciate you being open about it.

When my wife fell pregnant with our third, I too, was disappointed as we had been making plans for the future that didn't include another child. I nearly lost them both through that as my wife hemorrhaged and Jenni had the cord wrapped around her neck three times, but of course as soon as I laid eyes on our daughter I was a goneburger! Subsequently I also got the snip as the Dr. said it was too dangerous for my wife to have another and with three healthy children we decided to heed the warning.

[hellokitty]

Thanks for the expanation. You have my genuine sympathy and I really hope things turn out for the best. We all have been through tough times and experiences and some worse than others and it is too easy to judge without knowing all the facts. Not that I was judging you of course, it really was a genuine question and I appreciate you being open about it.

When my wife fell pregnant with our third, I too, was disappointed as we had been making plans for the future that didn't include another child. I nearly lost them both through that as my wife hemorrhaged and Jenni had the cord wrapped around her neck three times, but of course as soon as I laid eyes on our daughter I was a goneburger! Subsequently I also got the snip as the Dr. said it was too dangerous for my wife to have another and with three healthy children we decided to heed the warning.

No worries :love: I am seriously hormonal at the moment and alternate between being glad I am not pregnant to being angry that it looks like I will never have the choice. Hormones are evil.

I understand where you are coming from and yes, abortion is horrific, but I would never judge someone that felt they had no other choice. It is not a decision that a normal person would take lightly.

I do know a person who did use it as a (bad) form of contraception - she had 5 abortions before she was 20! Truly awful and strangely, something she just shrugs her shoulders over :facepalm:

[Edbear]

No worries :love: I am seriously hormonal at the moment and alternate between being glad I am not pregnant to being angry that it looks like I will never have the choice. Hormones are evil.

I understand where you are coming from and yes, abortion is horrific, but I would never judge someone that felt they had no other choice. It is not a decision that a normal person would take lightly.

I do know a person who did use it as a (bad) form of contraception - she had 5 abortions before she was 20! Truly awful and strangely, something she just shrugs her shoulders over :facepalm:

Ignorance is bliss for some I guess... Our two daughters have had many difficulties in pregnancy. Although our eldest has our precious and now 5 year-old Grandson she has had problems in carrying a pregnancy and has lost two since to miscarriages. She's just announced she is pregnant again and we are all on tenterhooks that she'll succeed this time.

Our youngest has been married five years and is now on fertility treatment as she has been unable to conceive. It's sad that so often it seems those who don't deserve children are popping them out willy-nilly while good parents, (Jenni is a foster Mum), can't have them or have real difficulty.

[Ladydragon]

I always thought abortions were carried out when the baby was still a cluster of cells. Clearly not an easy decision to be made. These are pretty graphic - you have been warned. :mellow:

http://www.clinicquotes.com/aborted%20picture%20index.htm

I had another look at this tread which I told myself not to please explain to me why would you want to put graphic pictures up like that for people to have a look at.I had a quick look and yes it did make me very set.No person can understand what it's like to have to do what I had to do until the person is put in the same persision.

I also had to do it because of other reasons to health as I mentioned before and so many other reasons.

[The Stranger]

I had another look at this tread which I told myself not to please explain to me why would you want to put graphic pictures up like that for people to have a look at.I had a quick look and yes it did make me very set.No person can understand what it's like to have to do what I had to do until the person is put in the same persision.

I also had to do it because of other reasons to health as I mentioned before and so many other reasons.

I have a philosophical issue with images of a very graphic nature.
I feel they desensitise people to the realities and thus are over the longer term counter productive to the cause they are usually being employed.
I didn't view them as a result.

May I ask why you looked when he noted that they were very graphic?

[Paul in NZ]

Sigh....

Funnily enough - people do get pregnant when they dont mean to even when they know what causes it. And its not always ignorance either - we are not perfect creatures, indeed far far from it.

What I've found is that often those who like to 'judge' tend to be the very last to offer help to those that do stumble and moan the loudest when misfortune comes their way.

Society has never found a fail proof method to stop unwanted pregnancy and I suspect that wont change but vilifing women over terminations is not the answer - its usually the man who runs from the situation 1st.

[Edbear]

Sigh....

Funnily enough - people do get pregnant when they dont mean to even when they know what causes it. And its not always ignorance either - we are not perfect creatures, indeed far far from it.

What I've found is that often those who like to 'judge' tend to be the very last to offer help to those that do stumble and moan the loudest when misfortune comes their way.

Society has never found a fail proof method to stop unwanted pregnancy and I suspect that wont change but vilifing women over terminations is not the answer - its usually the man who runs from the situation 1st.

I feel the issue is rather that far too few even know what it is all about. Certainly using abortion as a convenient method of birth control is... well...

My two key arguments are:

1a/ Take personal responsibility. Having sex is likely to result in pregnancy even iof the odds are greatly reduced by contraception. Anyone having sex should therefore be prepared to accept the results.


b/ In the case of rape resulting in unwanted preganancy I have enormous sympathy for the victim. In this case I would plead with the victim to consider both she and the baby are innocent victims and need to be supported and protected. The baby need not grow up to be a scumbag.

2/ I believe that most, if they knew the manner and method of abortion and how cruel it actually is, would have second thoughts. The mechanics are awful regardless of any moral or ethical considerations and no living thing should be treated this way.

This is, of course my opinion and others may see things differently but I hope I come across as reasonable.

[Luckylegs]

...but I hope I come across as reasonable.

You do!

however you're also annoyingly repetitive

:bleh:

[Edbear]

You do!

however you're also annoyingly repetitive

:bleh:

LOL!!! Sorry.... :facepalm:

[jonbuoy]

I had another look at this tread which I told myself not to please explain to me why would you want to put graphic pictures up like that for people to have a look at.I had a quick look and yes it did make me very set.No person can understand what it's like to have to do what I had to do until the person is put in the same persision.

I also had to do it because of other reasons to health as I mentioned before and so many other reasons.

I didn´t put them on the internet - I linked to a site that does with a warning not to look as they were graphic. I´m not against abortion unless people start using it as birth control. I was pretty shocked - never realised how human they could look at such an early stage myself - don´t remember seeing anything like that in Sex education classes at school either. Up until I saw that website I assumed it was a peanut size cluster of tissues that got removed as do most people I guess.