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Cuban
6th December 2002, 09:11
i put some of that hi octane bp 98 in the tank the other day, and i dunno, but i swear it made a noticeable difference over the 96, bike just seemed all round quicker, anyone else noticed this at all?!

and has anyone seen the new actionman bike extreme ad(vs gangreen, i believe), that bike looks bad!!

Gixxer
6th December 2002, 09:41
I used 98 on Sunday, seems to have made a bit of a difference, felt a bit smoother, did not notice any power changes, only prob is that BP seem to be the only ones selling it. might have to make the change to 98.

wari
6th December 2002, 12:19
I use Gull 96 ... which is actually 97 ... and I reckon I get further on a tank ... maybe I'm dreaming too.

boris
6th December 2002, 13:52
I know in my car i get about 50km more on a tank full(50L tank)) . But on my Bike i find no diiff at all that I can tell any way.

boris

Coldkiwi
7th December 2002, 16:28
I'm a firm Gull 96 supporter for two reasons
1) the fuel is cleaner and as you said Wari, its better then a straight 96 octane
2) BP are top at my list of wankers. Everytime there is a price hike, BP start it.. normally around 3 or 4 cents... and then when the othercompanies decide to raise theirs, it is ALWAYS one cent lower and filthy BP have to reduce theirs. The pricks made LUDICROUS profits ($13B enough?) in ONE quarter alone last year and they're still pushing the prices.
and while I'm on a rant ... 'Beyond Petroleum".. yeah, my ass! When was the last time you saw BP putting geniune R&D money behind solar or Water powered cars!?

:angry:

Skunk
9th December 2002, 14:31
Mobil synergy 8000 is 98 oct.

bluninja
6th January 2003, 18:25
Scuse me...but how does putting a higher Octane fuel into your tank change anything ? The octane number just denotes how resistant the fuel is to detonation (exploding in the cylinder rather than burning damn fast) and doesn't change the energy content of the fuel.

Great if you have high compression ratios, or an engine tuned/designed to use higher octane, otherwise seems a waste of money to me. Suppose it makes the engine run smoother on hot days (when you may start getting occasional detonation in lower octane fuels).

TTFN

Gixxer
7th January 2003, 11:02
unknown, but from what I have heard from a lot of bike stores, it is ment to be good when running high performance bikes.

any mechanics out there that can answer this?

wari
7th January 2003, 17:05
I dont know about the technicalities of this ... alL I know is the experience tells me Gull 97 seems to perform better in my bike.

SPman
7th January 2003, 17:52
How come all the bike shops recomend running 91??????:confused:

Gixxer
7th January 2003, 21:57
what stores are they?

I think it depends on who you talk to, or what you are asking.

Coldkiwi
8th January 2003, 12:11
"Run it on 91"? Thats news to me!

My understanding was that in Japan, you cannot actually buy 91 octane petrol (but I only heard this from one source so it would be worth verifying!). But of course the upshot to this is that all Japanese bikes should be being 'designed' to run on 96 (although I'll admit I don'tknow enough about perfromance bike engine design to be able to offer any useful info on what this really means).

But the proof is in the pudding! I certainly noticed a difference going to 96 from 91 on my bike. Whether its quite as noticable on a bike like an RSV with that much power I dunno! (but I'm itching to find out one day!)
:bigthumb:

bluninja
8th January 2003, 13:43
Don't make much difference on an SV650...I tried it at the racetrack. One SV on 91, one on 96. No difference on acceleration down the straights side by side. Even when I switched my bike over to 96 it didn't change things. Perhaps if I were a more skillful rider I would go fast enough to notice :rolleyes:

TTFN

bikerboy
11th January 2003, 15:18
:eek:This is my very basic understanding of octane ratings: Octane is inherent in the chemical structure of hydrocarbons (big word)in gasoline. Higher octane levels equal more efficient engines, not more power. Modern engines have management systems which adjust for a range of octane levels as long as the minimum design level is met(generally 91). The lower the octane in the design range, the less efficient the engine runs (knocking and poor fuel economy). High performance engines are designed with a higher minmum in mind. High octane = expensive refining costs.

Ratings of octane are very complex and take into consideration other additives and prevent " pre or post" ignition of fuel in the combustion chamber, and are based on specific engine load and driving characteristics. This why some notice a difference and others don't. Different companies and different countries = different octane/additive results based on "same octane ratings"(altitude, humidity, season, etc.).

Best advice: Try several brands of differing octane levels to find best running of your bike for your riding and use that. It may mean 98 octane or 91 is best. Remember the less octane gasoline has the cheaper it is to produce and the less it cost you.:confused: :done:

bluninja
11th January 2003, 20:35
Bikerboy, octane has absolutely nothing to do with thermodynamic engine efficiency, it as as said earlier a rating of the fuels ability to withstand detonation (and preigniton...which I didn't say :p )

I agree that different fuel companies will provide gas that may make more power even though they show the same RON, so yes shopping around and seeing what fuel works best in your engine is a good idea....but going up to a higher octane level will not boost power output for a bike designed to operate at 91.

Here's a shortish article that may help The 4 Basic Qualities of Fuels (http://www.medfordfuel.com/octane.htm)

TTFN

bikerboy
11th January 2003, 22:19
:) Bluninja, I was refering to efficiency in relation to exhaust emissions. Oxygenates result in cleaner burning engines, cleaner exhausts, but result in less energy released. Engine management systems adjust for all variables to optimize the fuel, power, and emissions equation. Going to a higher octane level will not produce more power but MAY provide a smoother running engine and reduce emission polution. :done:

bluninja
11th January 2003, 22:49
Well bikerboy, I'll just have to disagree on the comment about emissions and smoother running via higher octane. If this were so, don't you think that worldwide governments would be queueing up (prompted by the oil companies themselves) to get us on ever higher octane as a way of reducing emissions, rather than strangling vehicles with catalytic convertors ?

TTFN

stevemac
18th January 2003, 02:24
Interesting thread.
Yes, octane is resistance to knocking, which is why many people use aviation fuel (110 oct) in race engines. Because they have high compression ratios.
I have a feeling that the difference felt when changing from 96 to 98 octane fuel is because the 96 you are using is actually 95 or 94 or 93 (due to refining variances), and your engine is knocking inaudibly, sapping it of potential power. I have heard this theory of fuel octane ratings varying from the advertised value, but never heard it prooved.
Also, unless bikes these days (I am out of touch, been working on cars too long!) have knock sensors and O2 sensors, the only way for them to be adapted to lower octane fuels is to change (retard) the fuel mapping/ignition mapping, or alter the compression ratio. Compression ratio specs always seem the same for bikes no matter what the market, so manufacturers are obviously changing the mapping to suit the fuel, which is never going to be a failsafe method.
By the way, fuel octane in Japan is 98 - 100 for high grade, and 95 - 98 for regular. Regular is 93 yen a liter at the moment, which is about NZD$1.40.

bluninja
18th January 2003, 09:19
Interesting observation Steve. So if I read you right, then I could advance the timing on my bikes and change up to 98 RON and get more power. Simplistic I know, but that seems to be a conclusion of what you are saying.

TTFN

stevemac
19th January 2003, 12:15
Very simplisticly, maybe.

Like I said, I am only assuming manufacturers are playing with mapping to adjust to lower octane fuels. And remember, fuel/ignition mapping is a complex beast, it is not just a matter of advancing the timing.
I doubt that the power increase will be noticeable though. Like bikerboy said, the higher octane will burn more efficiently (no knocking) than the lower, so in the real world you could probably expect smoother performance, and a longer engine life due to less stress, rather than higher power.
So DON'T go and advance your timing, because you will probably cause pre-ignition and blow holes in the tops of your pistons! Maybe you could try and get a Japanese import ECU from a bike wreckers?

bluninja
19th January 2003, 13:24
Steve, don't worry I'm not about to mess about based on this forum. I know a little about performance and fueling...especially after I fitted a factorypro chip to my Aprilia. The chip was designed for bikes up to 00 which ran 44 psi average fuel pressure...as opposed to the 49 psi of the 01/02 bikes. I ended up with a lumpy engine that ran stinky rich. I ended up getting a fuel pressure regulator to lower the fuel pressure to get more power :confused: and the CO2 pots are now active so I have even more opportunity for screwing up the settings.

The most telling thing is that bikes and fuels are manufactured to commercial tolerances, so you can always improve the standard engine, and you can pay more to get a higher quality fuel (where the RON or PON are more accurate.

My experience is that I have seen no performance difference between RON 91 and RON 96 from the local forecourts, and the smoothness or not of the engine is totally subjective and open to psychological input (like when the mechanic says he's tweaked the widget for linear power delivery and the rider then says that the bike engine pulls smoother and better as he opens the throttle...though nothing on the bike has been touched.)

:bigthumb:

If a bike running on 91 RON suffers no pinking under normal operating, then IMHO raising the octane number will have no discernible effect on smoothness of running, longevity of the engine, or power increase. However this would change as soon as you start to tune the engine.
TTFN