Labour's new policy - attack the farmers

[Winston001]

Over the past few days Labour MP Stuart Nash said dairy farmers at 31 March 2009 (two years ago) only paid an average $1500 tax that year. http://www.3news.co.nz/Farmers-hit-back-at-Labour-tax-claims/tabid/419/articleID/211653/Default.aspx

Now Phil Goff announces that farmers will be taxed $800 million for the Emissions Trading Scheme to fund research.

In the first case of Stuart Nash he is an emptyheaded animal foodtrough wiper. He completely overlooks the Global Financial Crisis which made many of our businesses hit hard times. He conveniently ignored the fact farmers and others had already paid a heap of provisional tax. No mention either by Nash of the PAYE and GST paid.

I really have to wonder about Labour. Traditionally this is the party of thinkers, intellectuals, ideas people, and the best they can come up with is attacking the one productive sector NZ's wealth has come from for 150 years?

Oh puleesse...

[Brian d marge]

dem times they are a changing ...maybe farming might be ..not the future ???

From what I read here from the treasury http://www.treasury.govt.nz/economy/overview/2010

Snip
Service industries make up a large proportion of the economy, accounting for over two-thirds of GDP. The sector recorded strong growth between 2000 and 2007, with annual growth averaging 4.0%. As the New Zealand economy entered recession in 2008, services growth slowed, but not to the extent of other sectors in the economy. With the services sector expanding at a more rapid rate than other areas of the economy, the sector has increased its share of GDP from 66% in 2004 to 71% in September 2009. Export-related activities such as tourism and primary sector services inputs play an important part in trends in this sector.

239481




Stephen

hang on a min look how much these oldies get ,,,,Bastards .......

239482

[Motig]

Fail to see what your problem is. The ETS for farmers was still going to come in under National anyway. At least this way we might actually get some result for the money as opposed to it lining some faceless money grabber.

[James Deuce]

Good. They don't pay tax for starters and their entire business model revolves around living in a shack, eating Pam's canned vegetables for 20 years and then making massive capital gain turning productive land into a subdivision. The average Dairy Farm business owner pays 6% income tax.

PAYE Winston? Seriously? Have you seen what Farmers (Dairy in particular) try to pay their workers and then wonder why they leave for the heady income of a Gas Station or retail store and regular hours without 4 hours unpaid downtime in the middle of the day?

The Dairy farming industry needs to be charged at least 800 million a year to clean up NZ's waterways let alone the ETS. I have little sympathy for tax avoiding chronic polluters. They need to start behaving like responsible business owners and it looks like they can only be controlled with legislation. A combination of the ETS and Capital Gains Tax might turn them back into responsible business owners.

[MSTRS]

There's a enormous difference between what is earned and what tax is paid on. I'm not talking about turn-over either.
If dairy farmers are (legally) able to write off so much income against expenses that they only pay $1500pa on average...in some ways, good on them. I'd like to know their secret...

[unstuck]

How a lot of dairy farmers down this way are crying poverty when the have new cars and boats and the like sitting in the driveways.:innocent:

[oneofsix]

There's a enormous difference between what is earned and what tax is paid on. I'm not talking about turn-over either.
If dairy farmers are (legally) able to write off so much income against expenses that they only pay $1500pa on average...in some ways, good on them. I'd like to know their secret...

secret, what secret? When you buy the new bike its an expense on you and no write offs apply, when the farmer buys it its a farm expense, and probably registered as a farm bike avoiding road bike ACC, and there fore a farm expense, :yes: the registration is a farm expense as well. So though the farmer now has a new bike it is a tax write off, not income then purchase.
Oh and you get to pay higher dairy prices cause the international price is rising and you will get to pay again when the international price drops cause our primary sector needs the support of the rest of NZ soooooo much. :shit:

[willytheekid]

How a lot of dairy farmers down this way are crying poverty when the have new cars and boats and the like sitting in the driveways.:innocent:

+1

Exactly.
The modern day farmer seems to have the best toys money can buy nowdays.
They never seemed to require a 80k 4x4 when I was a boy, or a tractor worth more than a small house!?!.
All the while they are allowing run off into OUR rivers and diverting & SELIING public water for there our use and profit!.
Christ in CHCH alone the farmers have the monopoly on water to the point where they sell it back to the council, and WE pay extra in our rates for water that is legally OURS to being with???.

Im sorry, but the farmers have taken it to far, love what they do and the products they provide but they need to pay there share in TAX and take a good look at themselves and some of there business practices.... they are starting to look like dirty greedy money grabbers

[schrodingers cat]

You'd think a 'left' leaning party would relise that Marx wasn't an idiot.

Service industries are all well and good but remove primary production and see what happens.

As for the haters - there is nothing stopping you starting your own business and learning a whole lot about how things work.

[James Deuce]

There's a enormous difference between what is earned and what tax is paid on. I'm not talking about turn-over either.
If dairy farmers are (legally) able to write off so much income against expenses that they only pay $1500pa on average...in some ways, good on them. I'd like to know their secret...

A cunning plan is a "company" credit card with an $80k limit and a 4% interest rate. The rest of us mortals can't access these despite apparently earning many times the income of the average DF. Which side of the ledger does a company credit card go? Amazing how they get cleared once a year and not necessarily at the time that Fonterra pay out on their BS untradeable "shares".

Another scam is to send the wife to work to run the household and then draw no income, using the big, low-interest CC to fly around the country as a National Athletics Coach (and then claim it all back as expenses) while your 70 year-old Mum keeps the farm going.

Yes, I am jealous. You can be utterly unqualified, have the work ethic of a P-addict, tip antibiotic tainted milk, fertiliser, and fecal coliform into rivers with impunity and still have all the toys and no imperative to change any of the bad stuff about your "lifestyle".

[oneofsix]

Im sorry, but the farmers have taken it to far, love what they do and the products they provide but they need to pay there share in TAX and take a good look at themselves and some of there business practices.... they are starting to look like dirty greedy money grabbers

Starting to look like? what you really mean is you are starting to see them as. They have always been what they are. Given the chance most of us would do the same. However that doesn't mean we should give them the chance. They should pay their share as they certainly don't stand back when it comes to claiming benefits from the tax payers, even when it takes smart accounting to make them appear entitled to the benefit

[Okey Dokey]

I'm not sure that I understand how Labour can use money from the ETS to fund another policy they support. Isn't money from the ETS collected to protect NZ from any liabilities owing from signing up to the Kyoto Protocol?

Using it for something else means that it is just another tax, surely.

[dhunt]

+1

Exactly.
The modern day farmer seems to have the best toys money can buy nowdays.
They never seemed to require a 80k 4x4 when I was a boy, or a tractor worth more than a small house!?!.
All the while they are allowing run off into OUR rivers and diverting & SELIING public water for there our use and profit!.
Christ in CHCH alone the farmers have the monopoly on water to the point where they sell it back to the council, and WE pay extra in our rates for water that is legally OURS to being with???.

Im sorry, but the farmers have taken it to far, love what they do and the products they provide but they need to pay there share in TAX and take a good look at themselves and some of there business practices.... they are starting to look like dirty greedy money grabbers
You obviously don't know many farmers then aye. The ones I know drive old cars, have regular meetings with their bank managers to talk about there mortgage payments that they aren't meeting, don't ever have any regular holidays etc.

And when their machine breaks down have to renegotiate with the bank on how to pay for it. With the cost of farms these days it's a wonder farmers can actually make any profits at all.

It's funny I even know some farmers that have negative equity - so they are stuck trying to break even after 20+ years of slaving away and still have the possibility of coming out broke!!

Maybe there are some farmers that drive round in flash utes etc but ask them how many million they owe the bank and you'll find things aren't so rosy.

If the government ends up putting all these extra taxes on our farmers I suspect all our farms will end up with overseas owners because the average kiwi farmer won't be able to afford to run one.

[oldrider]

How a lot of dairy farmers down this way are crying poverty when the have new cars and boats and the like sitting in the driveways.:innocent:

Farmers have always been subsidised by the tax payer (Claytons beneficiaries) they are the backbone of the country! :violin:

Phil the magician is looking into his hat for something to "WOW" the gullible! :facepalm:

[unstuck]

In the last 6yrs comes from the dairying industry and i spend a lot of time on dairy farms.Most of the farmers talk about being broke and shit after they have just come back from a holiday somewhere or have all the nice toys.Dont have a problem with it apart from if you are doing ok,own up to it. I have more respect for someone who is using the SYSTEM to get ahead and admits it , than someone who is using the SYSTEM and has all the toys and pleads poverty. Same way i feel about people breaking the law and crying like a little girl when they get busted.If your making money from something own up to it and enjoy it,dont tell me your broke when you just brought the latest commodore ss.:yes:

[scissorhands]

Diary cows are pushed to the limit just like battery hens and pigs. Calves are taken from the girls after a day or 2 and their udders are becoming more and more ginormous.

5 years till hamburger time when they used to last 15 years as a milker.

Add pollution and tax avoidance to antibiotic laced diary food products and the industry is unsustainable and in dire need of review

[Winston001]

Hmmm...I'm astonished at the vitriol expressed here but maybe it's representative of the general population. Honestly, I hadn't realised the gap between people on the land and people living in cities had grown so large.

You don't see farmers building $30 million mansions and stripping $100 million from investors.

As for delinquent dairy farmers getting way with it...heard of Crafar Farms?!! Bankrupt. And what's the upshot of that? - a probable sale to Chinese interests. If people don't take a deep breath and realise the wealth they enjoy is founded upon farming/fishing/forestry - then you'll see many more foreign owners very shortly.

[Geeen]

You obviously don't know many farmers then aye. The ones I know drive old cars, have regular meetings with their bank managers to talk about there mortgage payments that they aren't meeting, don't ever have any regular holidays etc.

And when their machine breaks down have to renegotiate with the bank on how to pay for it. With the cost of farms these days it's a wonder farmers can actually make any profits at all.

It's funny I even know some farmers that have negative equity - so they are stuck trying to break even after 20+ years of slaving away and still have the possibility of coming out broke!!

Maybe there are some farmers that drive round in flash utes etc but ask them how many million they owe the bank and you'll find things aren't so rosy.

If the government ends up putting all these extra taxes on our farmers I suspect all our farms will end up with overseas owners because the average kiwi farmer won't be able to afford to run one.

+1
I grew up on farms, The olds would earn 50k one month and have 55k in bills, animal heath, silage, power, machine maintenence, etc. Its NOT an easy way to make a living, Up at 4 or 5 am to milk and don't stop till 7 or 8 at night 7 days a week. How many urban workers would be OK doing that?

[scissorhands]

Farmers are primary producers, not like many other investors and scammers. They work bloody hard, have much responsibility and commitment to many aspects of community and society (providing local spending, employment for many trades....) and as such deserve some wealth.

[jaffaonajappa]

+1
I grew up on farms, The olds would earn 50k one month and have 55k in bills, animal heath, silage, power, machine maintenence, etc. Its NOT an easy way to make a living, Up at 4 or 5 am to milk and don't stop till 7 or 8 at night 7 days a week. How many urban workers would be OK doing that?

+1.


I did this for two years, aged 17 to 19. As a farm hand. Harrrrd work.
I remember being a little envious of the land owners at the time. Then I grew up. Do some research people - if you have a $5 million investment, spend 100k pa on equipment, and after your wage bill have another 100k profit / drawings / income. Have you really done well? A 2% net return. Some of our bigger dairy farms - back then - had figures like this. Kinda sad compared to city-folks working on 10% returns minimum. Without doing 12 hour work days to achieve that.

[Brian d marge]

Hmmm...I'm astonished at the vitriol expressed here but maybe it's representative of the general population. Honestly, I hadn't realised the gap between people on the land and people living in cities had grown so large.

You don't see farmers building $30 million mansions and stripping $100 million from investors.

As for delinquent dairy farmers getting way with it...heard of Crafar Farms?!! Bankrupt. And what's the upshot of that? - a probable sale to Chinese interests. If people don't take a deep breath and realise the wealth they enjoy is founded upon farming/fishing/forestry - then you'll see many more foreign owners very shortly.
Very true .,.. The wealth Was generated by the primaries , the Korean war made a few sheep farmers happy
but that was then this is now. China is busy future proofing its food/water and international relations NZ is in a great position at the moment

But we are dealing with corporations let alone countries that have vastly more money than NZ ( walmart in America had something like a 7 billion dollar PROFIT )

So as soon as money moves into dairying or the goalposts move , bang goes that revenue stream

If NZ wishes to rebuild the primaries , then IMHO , they need to be boutique and expensive ( ala NZ lamb and wines and my body )

Organic , difficult to grow , and friggen expensive ...I think kiwi farmers are very good at profit per acre , one if not the best in the world and could do very well .. but commodities are market driven , and those markets are brutal ala sheep and wool which once was the darling of the hour......

Stephen

[Okey Dokey]

It was only a few weeks ago that dozens of farmers spent 2 weekends shoveling liquifaction silt to help people in Chch. At least 2 vanloads of baking and meals were sent up from our local community, too, which is a lot of food. We had people staying to escape from the shaking for a few days.

I would like to think that actions speak louder than words, and that perhaps the urban-rural gapped was narrowed a little by these actions.

[avgas]

Hmmm...I'm astonished at the vitriol expressed here but maybe it's representative of the general population. Honestly, I hadn't realised the gap between people on the land and people living in cities had grown so large.

You don't see farmers building $30 million mansions and stripping $100 million from investors.

As for delinquent dairy farmers getting way with it...heard of Crafar Farms?!! Bankrupt. And what's the upshot of that? - a probable sale to Chinese interests. If people don't take a deep breath and realise the wealth they enjoy is founded upon farming/fishing/forestry - then you'll see many more foreign owners very shortly.
Tis the unfortunate affairs of things.
Unfortunately farmers were taught how to farm better, and make more money......but no one taught them how to run a business in the black.
Unfortunately when the world fell to its knees with no money, the only ones with money not only were good at solid sound investment, they were actively looking to boost their own countries by buying others key resources.
Unfortunately people had a greed for above average returns - and put their faith and money on those who promised this. Rather than those I mentioned above who invested in very slow but stable investments.
Unfortunately people believed (and still do) that buying land is a safe bet.......but the fact of the matter is if you don't have the $$$ you shouldn't buy anything......as nothing is safe if you don't pay for it yourself.
Unfortunately people believe that we should sell our skills we have gained by being a primary producer (NZKFB, NZFSU, Fonterra...) ......cutting the branch we were standing on.

Chain of events really, on their own bad, but combined made us soft for the kill. While the farmers/growers in NZ will cop a fair amount of this in the future. They hold a fair proportion of the blame too. If they stuck to what they did best 20+ years ago.......they would be in a better position now. But they wanted more. With a big rise must come a big fall.

[bogan]

Tis the unfortunate affairs of things.
Unfortunately farmers were taught how to farm better, and make more money......but no one taught them how to run a business in the black.
Unfortunately when the world fell to its knees with no money, the only ones with money not only were good at solid sound investment, they were actively looking to boost their own countries by buying others key resources.
Unfortunately people had a greed for above average returns - and put their faith and money on those who promised this. Rather than those I mentioned above who invested in very slow but stable investments.
Unfortunately people believed (and still do) that buying land is a safe bet.......but the fact of the matter is if you don't have the $$$ you shouldn't buy anything......as nothing is safe if you don't pay for it yourself.
Unfortunately people believe that we should sell our skills we have gained by being a primary producer (NZKFB, NZFSU, Fonterra...) ......cutting the branch we were standing on.

Chain of events really, on their own bad, but combined made us soft for the kill. While the farmers/growers in NZ will cop a fair amount of this in the future. They hold a fair proportion of the blame too. If they stuck to what they did best 20+ years ago.......they would be in a better position now. But they wanted more. With a big rise must come a big fall.

Well we had a good run, and I for one will welcome our new Chinese overlords :facepalm:

One point I'd like to make, is that there are other sorts of farmers here than dairy, who haven't been having a good time of it lately (though I think it's picked up the last year or two), and who don't pollute waterways etc, and who provide not just some silly breakfast ingredient, but meat, wool, meat, etc, and meat.

[Banditbandit]

I really have to wonder about Labour. Traditionally this is the party of thinkers, intellectuals, ideas people, and the best they can come up with is attacking the one productive sector NZ's wealth has come from for 150 years?

Oh puleesse...

:facepalm: Come on. Politics is the art of getting elected .. and just how many farmers do you think vote Labour? Farmers are a "safe" target for Labour .. And how many city votes wil they get by attacking farmers (Yeah - clearly not yours ...)

[MikeL]

Well we had a good run, and I for one will welcome our new Chinese overlords :facepalm:


Good to see a down to earth, practical and realistic assessment of the situation. Too many people indulge in wishful thinking, hoping that NZ can somehow recover its past prosperity, when global capitalism, the commodity markets and free trade agreements will inevitably ensure that this country ends up as one huge farm owned by Chinese and supplying large quantities of low-cost food to the insatiable Asian market.

Learn the following Mandarin phrase:
Ni hao, xian sheng! Good morning, sir!
(accompanied by obligatory doffing of cap and slight bow)

[Sable]

This (http://www.weebls-stuff.com/songs/Farmer/) is what farmers do all day and you have to think about taxing them harder?

[Winston001]

:facepalm: Come on. Politics is the art of getting elected .. and just how many farmers do you think vote Labour? Farmers are a "safe" target for Labour .. And how many city votes wil they get by attacking farmers (Yeah - clearly not yours ...)

Yeah I know you are right. I suppose it irritates me when I avoid criticising beneficiaries and public servants and expect a similar level of respect for the primary industries of this nation. The much vaunted service industry only exists because we sell boring but solid commodities overseas. And "services" are what our clever financiers made their millions from then walked away from mum and dad's retirement investments.

Pretty damned hollow if you've ever worked with the soil. There is an honesty and primacy in your soul when you spend your days on the land.

[The Stranger]

How a lot of dairy farmers down this way are crying poverty when the have new cars and boats and the like sitting in the driveways.:innocent:

Sounds like Japan. The farmers are crying poor, but I seen the photos of all the cars, boats and houses in their paddocks.

[unstuck]

Sounds like Japan. The farmers are crying poor, but I seen the photos of all the cars, boats and houses in their paddocks.

Fuckit. Now i,ve got to clean soup of my fuckin screen and keyboard.:killingme:killingme

[JimO]

i think farmers fall into the "rich prick" category according to labour

[cowpoos]

Good. They don't pay tax for starters and their entire business model revolves around living in a shack, eating Pam's canned vegetables for 20 years and then making massive capital gain turning productive land into a subdivision. The average Dairy Farm business owner pays 6% income tax.

PAYE Winston? Seriously? Have you seen what Farmers (Dairy in particular) try to pay their workers and then wonder why they leave for the heady income of a Gas Station or retail store and regular hours without 4 hours unpaid downtime in the middle of the day?

The Dairy farming industry needs to be charged at least 800 million a year to clean up NZ's waterways let alone the ETS. I have little sympathy for tax avoiding chronic polluters. They need to start behaving like responsible business owners and it looks like they can only be controlled with legislation. A combination of the ETS and Capital Gains Tax might turn them back into responsible business owners.

I trust thats sarcastic Jim....because otherwise...you actually have no loody Idea at all.....LMAO!!

[cowpoos]

There's a enormous difference between what is earned and what tax is paid on. I'm not talking about turn-over either.
If dairy farmers are (legally) able to write off so much income against expenses that they only pay $1500pa on average...in some ways, good on them. I'd like to know their secret...

no not at all....don't read the bullshit in the newspapers....do some research!!

[Brian d marge]

We are oft to blame in this, —
'Tis too much prov'd, — that with devotion's visage,
And pious action, we do sugar o'er
The devil himself.

You can guess which book Im reading at the moment

Stephen

[cowpoos]

You'd think a 'left' leaning party would relise that Marx wasn't an idiot.

Service industries are all well and good but remove primary production and see what happens.

As for the haters - there is nothing stopping you starting your own business and learning a whole lot about how things work.

Your the smartest man/woman on this thread so far.....so...tell me....why is it people belive what they read in a news paper and believe it with out question as 100% true??

[cowpoos]

You can be utterly unqualified, have the work ethic of a P-addict, tip antibiotic tainted milk, fertiliser, and fecal coliform into rivers with impunity and still have all the toys and no imperative to change any of the bad stuff about your "lifestyle".

So why is it that the most poluted land in this country per square metre...[and not by a little bit by a massive margin] is the towns....why don't the hippocrite townies clean up their backyards before whinging about ours....once again Jim....not sure whats up with yo lately....but...totally uninformed post!!

[cowpoos]

Hmmm...I'm astonished at the vitriol expressed here but maybe it's representative of the general population. Honestly, I hadn't realised the gap between people on the land and people living in cities had grown so large.
.

ya know...I just found this thread....and got to your post after making a few replies...and I starting thinking the same thing....also....Labour have found the Idiots with selfish little brains they need to vote for them....I give up...people will belive what ever the hell they want...I just get really pissed with people who are so UNINFORMED...they are just so stupid in my mind....seriously..I dunno.

[Winston001]

Have you seen what Farmers (Dairy in particular) try to pay their workers and then wonder why they leave for the heady income of a Gas Station or retail store and regular hours without 4 hours unpaid downtime in the middle of the day?


Jim you are an intelligent man and you know better than this. The beginning wages in many industries are below the fast high wages in on again/off again jobs or the raw stuff like mining.

I've seen this happen. Dairy employees have the chance to breed their own stock if they are competent and reliable. As this grows they move on to short-order sharemilking all the while growing their own herd larger every year.

After about ten years they are in a position to buy a run-off block or rental house, and they keep working. 24/7. For years. By the time a sharemilking couple are 35-40 they will be buying their own dairy farm.

It isn't quick. It isn't easy. It isn't even guaranteed. But eventually for the switched on ones who think, plan, and work, they succeed.

I don't know the average farmers age but it used to be 57. Its a lifetime commitment and worth it to those who want it. Same for engineers, architects, doctors, retailers etc. Nothing worth doing is easy.

[schrodingers cat]

Your the smartest man/woman on this thread so far.....so...tell me....why is it people belive what they read in a news paper and believe it with out question as 100% true??

:love::love::love: You're my new best friend! :love::love::love:LOL

I've quoted Mark Twian before but it is worth doing so again;

If you don't read the papers you are uninformed.

If you do read the papers you are misinformed.

Thank you Mr Twain. Unfortunately the truth isn't news and the news isn't truth.
When you take the path of producing a society of consumers the first skill you must reduce is the ability to think independantly and critically.

Take a moment to have a look at this link (v short I promise)
http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2010/07/amusing-ourselves-to-death/

[marie_speeds]

Your the smartest man/woman on this thread so far.....so...tell me....why is it people belive what they read in a news paper and believe it with out question as 100% true??

I don't believe anything I read in the newspapers.....if you want the truth then you are in the right place, KB is the only place where you can get it......:yes:

[Banditbandit]

There is an honesty and primacy in your soul when you spend your days on the land.

Nice sentiment - but are you kidding??? Many farmers are some of the biggest whingers, idiots and deluded bullshit artists I know (and I've spent my days owning and working the land) ..

[Banditbandit]

why is it people belive what they read in a news paper and believe it with out question as 100% true??

because people have been trained to believe the propoganda bullshit ...


I don't believe anything I read in the newspapers.....if you want the truth then you are in the right place, KB is the only place where you can get it......:yes:

:rofl: You can be deluded about cowpoos - he strokes your ego .. but I can't lead the KB comment go - that's way too self-delusional.

PS loved the link to the cartoons above ... I would add a slight paraphrase of mark Twain ... Those who do not read have no advantage over those who cannot read.

[oneofsix]

because people have been trained to believe the propoganda bullshit ....

propaganda is the training. It is propaganda because it is designed to fool most of the people most of the time. :corn:

[Brian d marge]

propaganda is the training. It is propaganda because it is designed to fool most of the people most of the time. :corn:
Have a look at the lovely Edward Bernays... then the focus group , and how clinton got reelected for the second time....

Oh what a lovely con

Stephen

I swear Im going to go into the Jesus Boot market ........ Me and Dr Manette will be restored to life ..........

[schrodingers cat]

I don't believe anything I read in the newspapers.....if you want the truth then you are in the right place, KB is the only place where you can get it......:yes:

There will never be a time when the truth reigns on earth. Anyone who wants to live a live worth living should celebrate that fact, since the idea of any kind of pure truth is fundamentally anti-life. But there may be a time when less lies are told in the name of truth, and less lives destroyed through its misuse.

Many will say, but how can we deal with lies, distortions, misperceptions, half-truths and much else if we have no standard of truth against which to measure and expose what’s false? A crucial question, since while there may be no absolute truth, that hardly rids the world of lies.

What we need, it seems, is a notion of truth as partial rather than absolute, as insight rather than obfuscation. Insight allows us to understand more clearly, but not absolutely and certainly not finally.

A concept of truth, then, as fundamentally situational. Not beyond conditions, but lodged in them. Not the answer to conditions, but as something that allows us to understand the sources of conditions, and where those conditions are tending.

http://wallacethinksagain.blogspot.com/2008/01/you-cant-handle-truth.html


KB 'truth anyone?

[Winston001]

so...tell me....why is it people belive what they read in a news paper and believe it with out question as 100% true??

My thoughts:




Most of the news is accurate and true so we tend to believe even the spin stories
Journalists are under pressure to write stories, and print what they are presented with by media-savvy organisations
Journalists aren't as broadly educated as they used to be, so they don't know the deeper questions to ask
Critical analysis is not taught in schools. It is hard work for the teacher and the student
The printed word is powerful. We tend to believe it

[Winston001]

Nice sentiment - but are you kidding??? Many farmers are some of the biggest whingers, idiots and deluded bullshit artists I know (and I've spent my days owning and working the land) ..

LOL. I agree about whingers because they feel outnumbered and ignored in an urban dominated society. Just look at the moaning about broadband in NZ - its too slow, haven't got ADSL2 yet, why do we have data caps yadda yadda.

Shag! Farmers and horticulturists I know still only get dial-up - and even that can be down to 20kps. People shipping fruit, vegetables, and wine need BB to be able to connect with freight companies, warehouses, wholesalers, MAF etc etc. Hell even to be able to do online banking.

Incidentally I'm on slow dial-up right now near Queenstown. No BB here but I'm just visiting thankfully.

[puddytat]

As a Farmer (albeit a small one) i got a $9oo.00 tax refund this year because I earn fuck all & have 2 part time jobs as well. We work on the principle that our farm has to pay for itself...it does but only just.For us its all about lifestyle & flying our Organic & G.E Free flag.
Most farmers i know spend most if not all of what they make in a year on the farm so they don't have to pay tax. I struggle with that concept personally.
Something I often hear from farmers usually via the printed farmy papers is that they really care for their land & environment.....that's bullshit from what i see generally & the majority really only care about their pocket.Most of 'em cut down all the old trees planted by the early settlers to build a shed but far too few will ever plant one.:violin:
As for dairy farmers well they are the worst as far as Im concerned...One cow is the equivalent effluent of 14 people. So times the Dairy herd of approx 4 million by 14 =56million people shitting all over the place.Would we accept that number of refugees doing it all over the place?.I dont think so. Yet they make such an issue of freedom campers leaving a load in a carpark:facepalm:
Every time there's a bit of rain forecast, they're out there spreading that Nitrogen:yes:
So yeah tax the bastards, then the sooner you'll all starve.
The sooner they tax me out of farming critters then the sooner I'll plant the rest in Trees. Oh hang on theyre going to make it near impossible to do that too...profitably. ETS is just another futures market scam IMO.
Luckily the power is still on to the old pig shed so if I line it with Tin foil, put in a few more lights & plug in the heaters......:woohoo:Then i might be able to pay more tax.:innocent:

This thread has had some really good posts from all you fellas:yes:
Sorry to lower the standard.

[pete376403]

So why is it that the most poluted land in this country per square metre...[and not by a little bit by a massive margin] is the towns....!!

I would have thought it was the sites where chemicals (mainly for agricultural use) were manufactured, with the wastes being dumped into nearby streams or gullies.
Although to be fair most of these chemicals were for horticultural use, not dairying.

Anyway, town dwellers, by and large, don't dump shit directly on the ground, so what sort of pollution are you referring to?

[reofix]

they get their cheque.... they dont want inconvienient questions about that stream at the back of the farm that used to have trout and is now a gutter of cowshit... dont ask dont tell.. its the fonterra way!!!!!!!!

[cowpoos]

I would have thought it was the sites where chemicals (mainly for agricultural use) were manufactured, with the wastes being dumped into nearby streams or gullies.
Although to be fair most of these chemicals were for horticultural use, not dairying.

Anyway, town dwellers, by and large, don't dump shit directly on the ground, so what sort of pollution are you referring to?

are you a Idiot?? I say that seriously???


you must be absolutely retarded!!!

[cowpoos]

please....only intelligent people answer this.





Should I write a long winded and badly punctuated but detailed post on here explaining the simple facts and rebuttals to the crap people think in this thread or am I wasting my time on thick uninformed people??

[unstuck]

please....only intelligent people answer this.





Should I write a long winded and badly punctuated but detailed post on here explaining the simple facts and rebuttals to the crap people think in this thread or am I wasting my time on thick uninformed people??

YEP, you sound way to intelligent for the likes of me.:yes:

[Geeen]

please....only intelligent people answer this.





Should I write a long winded and badly punctuated but detailed post on here explaining the simple facts and rebuttals to the crap people think in this thread or am I wasting my time on thick uninformed people??

I take it your username is tied up with the way you make a living??

You could write a massive post detailing facts and rebuttals but if people dont want to take in what you are saying, you just wasted a whole heap of time. It really looks like those of us who have spent time living on farms have a different mindset than those who grew up in urban areas. I now live in town but havent lost the love of rural NZ.

[oneofsix]

please....only intelligent people answer this.





Should I write a long winded and badly punctuated but detailed post on here explaining the simple facts and rebuttals to the crap people think in this thread or am I wasting my time on thick uninformed people??

Funny how when people say shit like 'only intelligent people' what they really mean is "only dumbs shits that agree with me"

[oneofsix]

they get their cheque.... they dont want inconvienient questions about that stream at the back of the farm that used to have trout and is now a gutter of cowshit... dont ask dont tell.. its the fonterra way!!!!!!!!

If it used to have trout it was ruined anyhow, bloody invasive foreign species. The frigging things are more protected here than in the UK. Now if you had said long fin eel or whitebait you might have had a point.

[scumdog]

You obviously don't know many farmers then aye. The ones I know drive old cars, have regular meetings with their bank managers to talk about there mortgage payments that they aren't meeting, don't ever have any regular holidays etc.

And when their machine breaks down have to renegotiate with the bank on how .

Sheep farmers maybe - but not dairy farmers.

And farms cost so much to buy cos there's a big income in farming - if you've the capital to buy one without a crippling mortgage...

[Winston001]

As a Farmer..for us its all about lifestyle & flying our Organic & G.E Free flag.

Something I often hear from farmers usually via the printed farmy papers is that they really care for their land & environment.....that's bullshit from what i see generally & the majority really only care about their pocket.

Most of 'em cut down all the old trees planted by the early settlers to build a shed but far too few will ever plant one.


Yeah...you've described my dear departed dad. :D In the sense that he cut down trees and only planted a few. But...he spent his early years cutting farm hedges with a slasher and 25ft ladder which took weeks. Other trees had to be climbed to be limbed or simply left to grow.

I used to argue with him about more shelterbelts but now I understand why he wanted to bulldoze the lot.

It was marvellous when the first machine hedge-cutters arrived in the mid-60s.

My impression is that young farmers of all types are planting trees and riparian strips along ditches and streams. Not everyone of course and for those with deep debt, simply running the farm is as much as they can cope with. But the farming landscape is changing with more planting being done.

[T.W.R]

:yes: High intensity farming is a brilliant thing for the enviroment :facepalm: short sightedness & long term damage :oi-grr:

Plenty of years working in agricultural contracting you get to see plenty of what goes on beyond the farm gate & front hedge :yes: most so-called farmers these days are over committed money hungry twats that learnt absolutely zip from their predecessors, mostly just happy to rape the land without giving anything back :facepalm:
As for hedgecutters, quite few thousand hours driving one gives a good perspective on what cockies really think of the land :angry:

Fonterra is just a money hungry goliath that was founded by one of the biggest most unliked c@#ts in the Mid Canterbury district, Roadley was even disliked by most of his neighbours and any of the businesses he dealt with. Now their off raping south america :bye:

Synlait's majority shareholders are ex politicians, sort of speaks for itself :shutup:

Currently working for LIC (another dairy giant that's been around longer than both of the above) you get to see exactly what's going on in the industry and where they're wanting to head :buggerd:

[fuknKIWI]

This thread caught my eye, I haven't read it yet apart from the last post & this one, first Labour attacking farmers is hardly a new policy. Second attacking Agri business could be a new policy...I hope David Lange is still dead:yes:

Over the past few days Labour MP Stuart Nash said dairy farmers at 31 March 2009 (two years ago) only paid an average $1500 tax that year. http://www.3news.co.nz/Farmers-hit-back-at-Labour-tax-claims/tabid/419/articleID/211653/Default.aspx

Now Phil Goff announces that farmers will be taxed $800 million for the Emissions Trading Scheme to fund research.

In the first case of Stuart Nash he is an emptyheaded animal foodtrough wiper. He completely overlooks the Global Financial Crisis which made many of our businesses hit hard times. He conveniently ignored the fact farmers and others had already paid a heap of provisional tax. No mention either by Nash of the PAYE and GST paid.

I really have to wonder about Labour. Traditionally this is the party of thinkers, intellectuals, ideas people, and the best they can come up with is attacking the one productive sector NZ's wealth has come from for 150 years?

Oh puleesse...

TWR you nailed it...I wonder if we ever met?