I don't know what annoys me the most about this article...

[marie_speeds]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10727836


Th tattooist preventing what looks to be a funny sequelthat I want to see from being released or this woman and her following quote...

Professor Ngahuia Te Awekotuku, author of Mau Moko: The World of Maori Tattoo, described Mr Whitmill's claims of ownership as insufferable arrogance. "It is astounding that a Pakeha tattooist who inscribes an African American's flesh with what he considers to be a Maori design has the gall to claim ...

that design as his intellectual property," she said.

"The tattooist has never consulted with Maori, has never had experience of Maori and originally and obviously stole the design that he put on Tyson.

"The tattooist has an incredible arrogance to assume he has the intellectual right to claim the design form of an indigenous culture that is not his."

She shows insufferable arrogance of other cultures by insinuating that the only Indigenous People on this planet to tattoo or have those types of designs is Maori...... :angry:

[BoristheBiter]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10727836


Th tattooist preventing what looks to be a funny sequelthat I want to see from being released or this woman and her following quote...

Professor Ngahuia Te Awekotuku, author of Mau Moko: The World of Maori Tattoo, described Mr Whitmill's claims of ownership as insufferable arrogance. "It is astounding that a Pakeha tattooist who inscribes an African American's flesh with what he considers to be a Maori design has the gall to claim ...

that design as his intellectual property," she said.

"The tattooist has never consulted with Maori, has never had experience of Maori and originally and obviously stole the design that he put on Tyson.

"The tattooist has an incredible arrogance to assume he has the intellectual right to claim the design form of an indigenous culture that is not his."

She shows insufferable arrogance of other cultures by insinuating that the only Indigenous People on this planet to tattoo or have those types of designs is Maori...... :angry:

That you will never get back the 5 minutes you wasted reading it.

[marie_speeds]

That you will never get back the 5 minutes you wasted reading it.

Hey that's five minutes less that I spent working..... :sunny:

[oneofsix]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10727836


Th tattooist preventing what looks to be a funny sequelthat I want to see from being released or this woman and her following quote...

Professor Ngahuia Te Awekotuku, author of Mau Moko: The World of Maori Tattoo, described Mr Whitmill's claims of ownership as insufferable arrogance. "It is astounding that a Pakeha tattooist who inscribes an African American's flesh with what he considers to be a Maori design has the gall to claim ...

that design as his intellectual property," she said.

"The tattooist has never consulted with Maori, has never had experience of Maori and originally and obviously stole the design that he put on Tyson.

"The tattooist has an incredible arrogance to assume he has the intellectual right to claim the design form of an indigenous culture that is not his."

She shows insufferable arrogance of other cultures by insinuating that the only Indigenous People on this planet to tattoo or have those types of designs is Maori...... :angry:

from your post it would be the Profs attitude. Unless the tattoo artist was copying an existing Maori design, rather than just style, and providing the movie has copied the artists design then the artist has a copywrite case against the movie studio. which is ironic given the studios' stance on copywrite and downloads

[marie_speeds]

from your post it would be the Profs attitude. Unless the tattoo artist was copying an existing Maori design, rather than just style, and providing the movie has copied the artists design then the artist has a copywrite case against the movie studio. which is ironic given the studios' stance on copywrite and downloads

Yes her attitude really gets on my goat.....:angry:

Good point about copyright....Maori would have to prove beyond all doubt that the design belonged to them alone....and as they are not the only indigenous race to use such a design/pattern that may be very hard....If the tattooist drew it based on something similar that he had seen or what MT specifically wanted then perhaps he does have a case against the studio for completely copying it in the movie.....

[willytheekid]

"Mr Tyson agreed at the time his tattoo was created that Mr Whitmill would own the artwork and thus, the copyright."

Case closed!

[Paul in NZ]

Meh - I bet a sack full of rancid shrunken heads that if you hopped into your time machine and went back to the day there would not be one single Maori anywhere with a tattoo like that... Modernist 'tribal' bullshit...

[SMOKEU]

It's just another case where the Maoris are trying to claim shit that they don't own.
First it was the land and sea, now this. Just ignore them because if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

[Ender EnZed]

insinuating that the only Indigenous People on this planet to tattoo or have those types of designs is Maori...... :angry:

That's not what I read at all. Probably because that's not what she said.

[jaffaonajappa]

Looks more celtic than maori to me....but yeah, lol.

[oneofsix]

That's not what I read at all. Probably because that's not what she said.

perhaps that's why Marie typed insinuating meaning it is what she thinks the prof implied.

[Banditbandit]

It's just another case where the Maoris are trying to claim shit that they don't own.
First it was the land and sea, now this. Just ignore them because if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

Naa man .. you Pākehā already taken the whole fucken country. A mile is insignificant compared to that.

I don't really want to engage in this one - I'm torn between agreeing with you and not agreeing with you. It's not something I've made up my own mind about. (See not all Māori agree with all other Māori ... it's only you Pākehā who think we are all the same)

But I see a lot of similarities in he arguments around the use of Christian symbols and Iconography by non-Christian groups .. which hugely pisses off some Christian groups who want to claim ownership.

[Ender EnZed]

perhaps that's why Marie typed insinuating meaning it is what she thinks the prof implied.

Pehaps I was implying Marie was wrong and could benefit from reading the article more thoroughly and less emotionally.

[Banditbandit]

Pehaps I was implying Marie was wrong and could benefit from reading the article more thoroughly and less emotionally.

Hmm my reading of it is the same as marie ...

[SMOKEU]

Naa man .. you Pākehā already taken the whole fucken country. A mile is insignificant compared to that.

I don't really want to engage in this one - I'm torn between agreeing with you and not agreeing with you. It's not something I've made up my own mind about. (See not all Māori agree with all other Māori ... it's only you Pākehā who think we are all the same)

But I see a lot of similarities in he arguments around the use of Christian symbols and Iconography by non-Christian groups .. which hugely pisses off some Christian groups who want to claim ownership.

I'm not a phucking pakeha. You calling me a pakeha is just as insulting as me calling you a nigger.

[Banditbandit]

I'm not a phucking pakeha. You calling me a pakeha is just as insulting as me calling you a nigger.

Oh? You prefer racist Afrikaans?? Or simply bore ... (and yeah I know how to spell Boar - with a fucking E!)

[Ender EnZed]

Hmm my reading of it is the same as marie ...

I read the Prof's comment as a more long-winded version what Tau Henare said: "The tattooist moaning about the breach of copyright copied it off Maori. Bit rich to be claiming someone stole his 'design'."

It seems to me that the issue here is the tatooist laying claim to more than he created, and possibly getting away with it because a moko isn't something many people have seen in the US. In filing an injunction to try and stop a film's release he's just creating unnecessary bureaucratic bullshit to try and get a payout he doesn't deserve.

[nodrog]

I'm not a phucking pakeha. You calling me a pakeha is just as insulting as me calling you a nigger.

I prefer Boonga, you white maggot.

[SMOKEU]

Oh? You prefer racist Afrikaans?? Or simply bore ... (and yeah I know how to spell Boar - with a fucking E!)

You sure you don't mean "Boer"? :facepalm:


I prefer Boonga, you white maggot.

Thanks for the compliment. That just boosted my ego by 50 points. :yes:

[jasonu]

It's just another case where the Maoris are trying to claim shit that they don't own.
First it was the land and sea, now this. Just ignore them because if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

and the foreshore too

[jaffaonajappa]

OMG.
What is wrong with you people?

And give us back them muskets and we might just reconsider the Foreshore deal.

[oneofsix]

I read the Prof's comment as a more long-winded version what Tau Henare said: "The tattooist moaning about the breach of copyright copied it off Maori. Bit rich to be claiming someone stole his 'design'."

It seems to me that the issue here is the tatooist laying claim to more than he created, and possibly getting away with it because a moko isn't something many people have seen in the US. In filing an injunction to try and stop a film's release he's just creating unnecessary bureaucratic bullshit to try and get a payout he doesn't deserve.

you so wrong. He created the art. The moko, apart from the word, is not unique to the Maori, other races have facial tattoos and as one posted pointed out the curve pattern is often used in Celtic art, and whilst he may have got inspiration form the Maori the design and therefore copywrite is his. Why don't you check out what copywrite is.

[SMOKEU]

It's the Maoris fault for not copyrighting their designs.

[Ender EnZed]

you so wrong. He created the art. The moko, apart from the word, is not unique to the Maori, other races have facial tattoos and as one posted pointed out the curve pattern is often used in Celtic art, and whilst he may have got inspiration form the Maori the design and therefore copywrite is his. Why don't you check out what copywrite is.

Do you mean this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copywrite_%28rapper%29)?

Anyway, I'm well aware of what a copyright is. I don't think Mike Tyson's tatoo is unique enough to be worthy of one or to fuck up the production of a movie. It's Maori-ness or otherwise has nothing to do with it IMHO.

[Usarka]

Who invented copyright? :innocent:

[bogan]

Do you mean this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copywrite_%28rapper%29)?

Anyway, I'm well aware of what a copyright is. I don't think Mike Tyson's tatoo is unique enough to be worthy of one or to fuck up the production of a movie. It's Maori-ness or otherwise has nothing to do with it IMHO.

And it's not a direct copy anyway, isn't the difference to avoid copyright stuff 10% or something? I mean, it's on a different guys face and everything, probably not even a real tattoo. Mind you I wouldn't be surprised if he was put up to it to get free publicity for the movie.

[Ender EnZed]

Mind you I wouldn't be surprised if he was put up to it to get free publicity for the movie.

Could be this, could also be to get publicity for himself.

[Geeen]

Tattoos are cool......:whistle:

[schrodingers cat]

Naa man .. you Pākehā already taken the whole fucken country. A mile is insignificant compared to that.

I don't really want to engage in this one - I'm torn between agreeing with you and not agreeing with you. It's not something I've made up my own mind about. (See not all Māori agree with all other Māori ... it's only you Pākehā who think we are all the same)



What whities you taking bout Lewis..?

[Kickaha]

I'm not a phucking pakeha. You calling me a pakeha is just as insulting as me calling you a nigger.

gaan fokken huis toe boertjie.

heirdie land het jou nie nodig nie

[Geeen]

gaan fokken huis toe boertjie.

heirdie land het jou nie nodig nie

Had to use Google Translate on that one. Fair call.

[fliplid]

Looks more celtic than maori to me....but yeah, lol.
Just a question, what is actually meant by celtic? (Not the football team!) :corn:

[reofix]

Ngahuia has her axe to grind ... the rascists have theirs... this is some yank tosser and some try to hard tosser "artiste" stealing ideas because he hasnt got any ... yah yah ... idiots to the horizon

[SMOKEU]

gaan fokken huis toe boertjie.

heirdie land het jou nie nodig nie

Nee, daar is te veel fokken kaffers terug daar.

[Banditbandit]

Nee, daar is te veel fokken kaffers terug daar.


See .. that's you're problem!!!

I will stop calling you Pakeha if you stop thinking of us as different ..and stop being racist.

I challenge you name any difference between Maori, (whatever you want to call yourself) and the Blacks of South Africa (apart from phenotype) THAT I CAN NOT PUT BACK AT YOU AS SOMETHING HUMAN - a Human thing to do. We are all human beings ...

See when white people arrived here we knew what to do .. we knew how to integrate new immigrants into US. We'd done it many times before. But White people didn't - they came to take over ... now you want Maori to become YOU on your terms. We don't want Pākehā to become us on our terms ..

Now, we still want to integrate the new people into us. Many people who experience our culture for the first time find how welcoming it it is. We can still do it. In fact, we are doing it - we are sleeping with you and we are producing a new people who wil be decended from both of us .. and will see themselves as US.

If we create a new us them issues like the foreshore and sdea bed will disappear - because it will be OURS. Not Maori, not Pākehā - not white, not black .. but OURS ...

We're still waiting for you all to become US. (we will not have to wait much longer because the next generation will be US.)

[Banditbandit]

Just a question, what is actually meant by celtic? (Not the football team!) :corn:

The people who inhabited Wales, Ireland, Briton, Scotland and large chunks of frogland when the Romans got there ...

Tyson's tattoo is not particulalry Māori . sure it's on his face 'n all .. but the design itself has a lot more to do with the tribal art movement in tattooing ... the tattoo artist could have produced this without ever seeing Māori ta moko.

I don't see a problem with an imitation of it being used .. Māori have no role in this specific debate ...

And as a good friend of mine once said in a similar debate - "We do not have a copyright on bent lines."

[The Stranger]

Maori would have to prove beyond all doubt that the design belonged to them alone....

Unfortunately they are insulated from reality by living in NZ, in which case to even question the issue is racist and is all the proof they need.

[oneofsix]

The people who inhabited Wales, Ireland, Briton, Scotland and large chunks of frogland when the Romans got there ...

Tyson's tattoo is not particulalry Māori . sure it's on his face 'n all .. but the design itself has a lot more to do with the tribal art movement in tattooing ... the tattoo artist could have produced this without ever seeing Māori ta moko.

I don't see a problem with an imitation of it being used .. Māori have no role in this specific debate ...

And as a good friend of mine once said in a similar debate - "We do not have a copyright on bent lines."

Celtic people includes a chunk of England in there as well.

[The Stranger]

If we create a new us them issues like the foreshore and sdea bed will disappear - because it will be OURS. Not Maori, not Pākehā - not white, not black .. but OURS ...


What am I missing here please?
You say it will be ours. Pre the seabed and foreshore legslation wasn't it already ours?
Any benefit derived from it, be it commercial or recreational and any protections afforded it were to the benefit of all.
Isn't that a resource shared for us (as in OUR resource)

Being rusty on the specifics - what instigated the various sea bed and foreshore legislations when none existed for many many years?

[Eyegasm]

Now, we still want to integrate the new people into us. Many people who experience our culture for the first time find how welcoming it it is. We can still do it. In fact, we are doing it - we are sleeping with you and we are producing a new people who wil be decended from both of us .. and will see themselves as US.

If we create a new us them issues like the foreshore and sea bed will disappear - because it will be OURS. Not Maori, not Pākehā - not white, not black .. but OURS ...

We're still waiting for you all to become US. (we will not have to wait much longer because the next generation will be US.)

I have to ask... When did the last full blooded Moari pass away?

Hasn't it been "US" for quite some time already? All those with Treaty claims lodged, They are not "US" yet I dear say that none of them are FULL blooded Maoris, they breed themselves out. Maoris these days have only a percentage of Maori in them.

As far as I am concerned, born here not born here, New Zealand is for New Zealanders. Colour of your skin should not determine what you think you are entitled to.

And plus Hone is the most racist person in NZ!!!

[Banditbandit]

Celtic people includes a chunk of England in there as well.

Yeah Yeah ,. Whenit was Celtic it was called Briton ...

[oneofsix]

What am I missing here please?
You say it will be ours. Pre the seabed and foreshore legslation wasn't it already ours?
Any benefit derived from it, be it commercial or recreational and any protections afforded it were to the benefit of all.
Isn't that a resource shared for us (as in OUR resource)

Being rusty on the specifics - what instigated the various sea bed and foreshore legislations when none existed for many many years?

The Queen's chain had been diluted to such an extent that it was no longer solid that the seabed and foreshore was 'ours' and that it couldn't be sold and privatised. The initial idea was to prevent privatisation of the seabed and foreshore. An original Maori stance was that their culture would ensure it would be held in trust for all NZers :drinkup: like they aren't human or something. Well to be fair (on KB?) the ones that originally said that probably meant it but then the 'other' Maori's decided they could try blocking access and charging and other tricks.

[avgas]

Its funny, Tysons tattoo doesn't look unemployed.

Sorry thats racist isn't it.

how about this

Its funny, Tysons tattoo doesn't look like it is more than it is.......

[imdying]

now you want Maori to become YOU on your termsHardly...

<img src="http://www.addasnap.com/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=2088&g2_serialNumber=1" />

[Banditbandit]

Being rusty on the specifics - what instigated the various sea bed and foreshore legislations when none existed for many many years?

I can deal with this one easily (but at length) Let me consider the rest before jumping in ..

The whole row began in the Marlborough Sounds. Iwi groups there were submitting applications for aquafarms which were turned down by the local council. BUT near identical proposals from Pākehā commercial groups were beign accepted. It certainly looked racist.

So the Māori groups started tro say, well, we never sold the foreshore and seabed, so if we still own it, then we do not need permission from the white racist councils to build our marine farms. (Now, here, ownership is a very cultural specific idea and western ideas of ownership are different to Maori ideas of it .. and secondly, in different cultures you can own different things .. in British culture peopel own rivers .. and in other cultures peopel own sea ...so before anyone says repeats "you can't own the rivers and seas .. well sorry, but yes you can .. just not in our New ZEaland concept of exclusive ownership ...)

So the argument started as one of use of resources - Never about banning anyone from the beach or anything like that ... simply a group of peopel wishing to make use of a resource for their own economic wellbeing in the same way that Pākehā were .. but seeing that Pākehā were being privilged ...

So, the Maori groups took the argument throught the court system and up to the Appeals Court - which ruled that the ownership rights argument could be put to the Maori Land Court.

The Appeals Court DID NOT say that Maori owned the foreshore and seabed - it said it looked like a valid argument. If it went to the Maori Land court, whatever decision was reached would be appealed to the High Court (If Maori won, the the Crown would appeal, and v/versa) and then to the Appeals Court, which could THEN consider all the arguments that had been made and developed int he earlier process and make a decision.

The media came out and said Appeal Court says Foreshore and Seabed is Maori lad. Every Māori int he country wnet "Yahoo ..." and every Pākehā went "Oh Shit ..." BOth reactions are understandable ... and based on wrong information. But there was a typical media feeding frenzy which fueled Pākehā disquiet and Māori expectations .. all based on bullshit ..

BUT the Labour Government stepped in and said we don't trust the courts to make the right decision .. and we will pass an act saying it belongs to all New Zealanders ... The Labour Governmetn denied Māori access to the courts .. which when peopel like Don Brash claim "one law for all" . we were denied that by the Pākehā run Labour Government - one law for all was demonstrated to be a myth.

The argujkent has now got much wider than that - based on miscinceptions of both sides ...

The beaches are never under threat ... NZ Law gives ownership of land right down to the high tide mark ... the foreshore and seabed START at the high tide mark. So the beaches are actually already owned. Most of our beaches are owned by private people, or by DoC and other Govt Groups, or by City and District Council ... the owners can make you stand in the water at high tide .. because to step ont he land is to trespass.

So the issue of access to the beaches has not been affected by the foreshore and seabed legislation - access to beaches is often a dispute about crossing private land - and Pakeha landowners as well as Maori landowners limit access - especially across farms. Where public roads go to the beaches there is no issue, but once on the sand .. that is owned by the adjoining landowners, be they Maori or Pakeha (or Boer) ... and people are on the beaches at the landowner's tolerance. Most of them have no issues with that .. but a few do (from both groups) ...

So, the foreshore and seabed legislation started as a row over access to resources to support the wellbeing of family .. and setting up a business.

Misunderstandinmgs on both sides has fueld a massive debate, which I see no end to. It has been very damaging to our country - unneccessarily divisive and can be laid at the feet of an apparent racist local council and a stupid news media.

[Ender EnZed]

If we create a new us them issues like the foreshore and sdea bed will disappear - because it will be OURS. Not Maori, not Pākehā - not white, not black .. but OURS ...

We're still waiting for you all to become US. (we will not have to wait much longer because the next generation will be US.)

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. How does this differ from the likes of Don Brash?

[Banditbandit]

The Queen's chain had been diluted to such an extent that it was no longer solid that the seabed and foreshore was 'ours' and that it couldn't be sold and privatised. The initial idea was to prevent privatisation of the seabed and foreshore. An original Maori stance was that their culture would ensure it would be held in trust for all NZers :drinkup: like they aren't human or something. Well to be fair (on KB?) the ones that originally said that probably meant it but then the 'other' Maori's decided they could try blocking access and charging and other tricks.

"The Queen's chain" was never a legal concept in New Zealand ...

As I said above, access to the beaches and sea is dependent on landowners -both Maori and Pakeha .. and Pakeha ownwers block access just as mucvh as Maori - they just don't get in the media doing it as often ...

And yes, some Māori thought it was a good idea to block access - a stupid idea in some cases - justified in others .. just as some Pākehā blocking access are justified ..

The concept that the foreshore and seabed could be privatised and sold is only a concept in Pākehā culture. That was never an issue for us - but Pākehā have projected their concept of ownership onto our culture and their fears as well. (Now, I'm NOT saying that soem Māori might not try to sell the F/seabed .. we are all human and some of us are greedy and exploitative and others are not - I'd be very stupid indeed to claim that all Maori are perfect and all Pakeha bad - Maori who tried to sell off f/seabed would have no support from the majority of Maori)

[Banditbandit]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. How does this differ from the likes of Don Brash?

It differs from the likes of Don Brash in that we would integrate you into our culture ..

Don Brash expects all Maori to become Pakeha ... we don not expect all Pakeha to become Maori .. brash and his ilk remain colonizers ..

There are two cultures in New ZEaland - Maori and Pakeha (yeah and a few other minorities - buty two major ones).
If we are going to be One Culture I'd prefer it to be an amalgum of the best of Maori and the best of Pakeha - but Don Brash wants us to be all Pakeha culture.

Most Maori who actually think about it want the same as me - the best of both ... and that will happen - we are intermarrying very fast and producing a new group of people - of mixed racial decsent ... and they wuill be of mixed culture.

And, here's a little more self-serving reason for you to change. BY the year 2050 the prediction is that the majority population in New Zealand will be of Polynesian-descent - that's Maori and Pasifica with European ancestory as well. But they will Identify strongly as Maori and Pasifica .. This means that the majority workforce will be Maori/Pacifica .. the majority of taxpayers supporting your superannuation will be Maori and Pasifica ... (and think of the current row over superannuation payments into the future - can we afford them?) Will they want to keep paying out benefits for the old white population that pissed them off?

You future security in old age depends in an educated and high earning Maori and Pacifica population paying taxes . not the unemployed or low wage earning Maori and Pasifica population we currently have .. better get with it and help us secure your future!!! You've got 40 years ...

[SMOKEU]

See .. that's you're problem!!!

I will stop calling you Pakeha if you stop thinking of us as different ..and stop being racist.

I challenge you name any difference between Maori, (whatever you want to call yourself) and the Blacks of South Africa (apart from phenotype) THAT I CAN NOT PUT BACK AT YOU AS SOMETHING HUMAN - a Human thing to do. We are all human beings ...

See when white people arrived here we knew what to do .. we knew how to integrate new immigrants into US. We'd done it many times before. But White people didn't - they came to take over ... now you want Maori to become YOU on your terms. We don't want Pākehā to become us on our terms ..

Now, we still want to integrate the new people into us. Many people who experience our culture for the first time find how welcoming it it is. We can still do it. In fact, we are doing it - we are sleeping with you and we are producing a new people who wil be decended from both of us .. and will see themselves as US.

If we create a new us them issues like the foreshore and sdea bed will disappear - because it will be OURS. Not Maori, not Pākehā - not white, not black .. but OURS ...

We're still waiting for you all to become US. (we will not have to wait much longer because the next generation will be US.)

Mmmkay, well I don't have any problems with Maori people if they are good, honest people. I've met some very nice Maori people who have been very welcoming to me and treated me with a lot of respect.

However, I don't like the fact that many Maoris think they own everything. Maoris are immigrants to NZ as well, they ARE NOT NATIVE TO NZ! There are quite a few Maori people out there who think they own all the rivers and the sea, they think they own everything. I went out to a popular duck hunting spot a few weeks ago (Lake Ellesmere), and there was a fish and game sign there saying something along the lines of "This land is owned by xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Maori tribe. Please respect their land etc etc etc." This is bullshit because it should be ordinary government land, not given away to the Maoris for free.

The fact that Maori people get special treatment is what is extremely racist. In order for this country to move forward, we need to give EVERY NZ citizen equal rights, regardless of race. The NZ government and the Maoris are some of the most racist people around because they favour Maori people over white people. I'm an immigrant to NZ, just like the Maori people. Why can't I start a tribe and get some free land? It's because I'm not black!

[Banditbandit]

It's because I'm not black!

Bwhahahaha ... the idea of you as black just cracked me up ... I nearly choked on my coffee .. I'll reply to the rest when I've had a smoke and a think .. (or at least a smoke.)

[Camshaft]

It's just another case where the Maoris are trying to claim shit that they don't own.
First it was the land and sea, now this. Just ignore them because if you give them an inch, they'll take a mile.

+100000000000000000000000

[Camshaft]

Just a question, what is actually meant by celtic? (Not the football team!) :corn:

well there is an interesting book outlining the possibility of the celts beeen in nz before the moriori, the moriori thn came and took the country killing and reting the celt, then a time after. the maori came and ate and killed the moriori, and thats why there are many similarites between ancient celtic design and maori design, part of the culture was adapted.

[oneofsix]

If we are going to be One Culture I'd prefer it to be an amalgum of the best of Maori and the best of Pakeha - but Don Brash wants us to be all Pakeha culture.


You give Don too wide a scope. He doesn't care about Pakeha culture or culture at all. He wants every one to be greedy little capitalist lackeys where the only culture is making money. Maori, like a lot of pagans have a more holistic culture where environment, tribe, relationships are important. By relationships read wider than personal, Don would care about his own family but the rest of you are just there to provide income for them.

[SMOKEU]

Bwhahahaha ... the idea of you as black just cracked me up ... I nearly choked on my coffee .. I'll reply to the rest when I've had a smoke and a think .. (or at least a smoke.)

I was thinking of painting my face black and calling myself "Tahu" or "Rangi", maybe then I'll score myself some free stuff g.

[Ender EnZed]

It differs from the likes of Don Brash in that we would integrate you into our culture ..

I'm sure there are Brash supporters who would use the word integrate, but I kind of understand what you're getting at here.


If we are going to be One Culture I'd prefer it to be an amalgum of the best of Maori and the best of Pakeha
....
Most Maori who actually think about it want the same as me - the best of both

I doubt anyone would disagree with you on that.


And, here's a little more self-serving reason for you to change. BY the year 2050 the prediction is that the majority population in New Zealand will be of Polynesian-descent - that's Maori and Pasifica with European ancestory as well. But they will Identify strongly as Maori and Pasifica .. This means that the majority workforce will be Maori/Pacifica .. the majority of taxpayers supporting your superannuation will be Maori and Pasifica ... (and think of the current row over superannuation payments into the future - can we afford them?) Will they want to keep paying out benefits for the old white population that pissed them off?

You future security in old age depends in an educated and high earning Maori and Pacifica population paying taxes . not the unemployed or low wage earning Maori and Pasifica population we currently have .. better get with it and help us secure your future!!! You've got 40 years ...

What do you actually want me to do? How should Pakeha change?

[oneofsix]

You future security in old age depends in an educated and high earning Maori and Pacifica population paying taxes . not the unemployed or low wage earning Maori and Pasifica population we currently have .. better get with it and help us secure your future!!! You've got 40 years ...

So much in this one bit. :yes:
F... another 40 years?! I wont last that long. :shit:
My future security in old age depends on low wage earning Maori and Pasifica population we currently have. After all apart from the Asians who are the majority of the workers in the rest homes? :corn:
NZ is part of Pasific :yes: ? White, black, brown the whole lot.
Part of the cultural difference trottered out so often between 'white' and Maori or Pasifica is the attitude to work and money. Are you not therefore arguing for the Maori adoption of the 'Don Brash' attitude to provide the higher wages?
It is a bit like with retirement versus unemployment. Instead of the IMF supported raising of the retirement age I would suggest get ride of the old fuckers, send them off to spend their money creating employment in the service and manufacturing sectors and let the young have a go at starting their careers.

[Oscar]

I find it amazing that a Maori academic, educated in a University using European ‎concepts of education in a language that is not his own, has the gall to claim, ‎using the threat of English law, that a style of art belongs to one people.‎

[jasonu]

I have to ask... When did the last full blooded Moari pass away?

Hasn't it been "US" for quite some time already? All those with Treaty claims lodged, They are not "US" yet I dear say that none of them are FULL blooded Maoris, they breed themselves out. Maoris these days have only a percentage of Maori in them.

As far as I am concerned, born here not born here, New Zealand is for New Zealanders. Colour of your skin should not determine what you think you are entitled to.

And plus Hone is the most racist person in NZ!!!

Well said that man. NZ just isn't big enough for one rule for you and another for me. That is what is tearing the place apart. Some think that because their very distant relations lived in NZ before Europeans arrived the country owes them a living. How about, as in the above quote, NZ is for NZ'ers no matter what the skin color.
Get a job, stop worring about what others are doing, stop looking for handouts and get on with it!!!

[BoristheBiter]

I

If we are going to be One Culture I'd prefer it to be an amalgum of the best of Maori and the best of Pakeha

.

So what's the best of Maori?
I have yet to see anything i would want other than all the free stuff.

[Banditbandit]

You give Don too wide a scope. He doesn't care about Pakeha culture or culture at all. He wants every one to be greedy little capitalist lackeys where the only culture is making money. Maori, like a lot of pagans have a more holistic culture where environment, tribe, relationships are important. By relationships read wider than personal, Don would care about his own family but the rest of you are just there to provide income for them.

Absolutely !!! Don't get me started on a Marxist rant !!!!

[Banditbandit]

I find it amazing that a Maori academic, educated in a University using European ‎concepts of education in a language that is not his own, has the gall to claim, ‎using the threat of English law, that a style of art belongs to one people.‎

Ngahuia Te Awekotuku is definitely not a man !!!

There's a lot here I want to respond to and engage with .. have to wait .. I need to go to class right now .. students to teach 'n all ..

[oneofsix]

Ngahuia Te Awekotuku is definitely not a man !!!

are you claiming up close and personal experience? :woohoo:

Shit I though t i was done with this thread :facepalm:

But you are right the article even makes it clear the Prof is a female. Perhaps Oscar is showing gender bias, just a little bit

[Oscar]

Ngahuia Te Awekotuku is definitely not a man !!!

There's a lot here I want to respond to and engage with .. have to wait .. I need to go to class right now .. students to teach 'n all ..

My mistake.
I stand by my comment though.

Maori claiming exclusive rights to a style of tattooing is as stupid as the English asking Maori to pay to play rugby (a game which part of their culture).

[oneofsix]

My mistake.
I stand by my comment though.

Maori claiming exclusive rights to a style of tattooing is as stupid as the English asking Maori to pay to play rugby (a game which part of their culture).

I take your point and agree. I would, for the sake of the KB spirit, point out that at least the English did invent rugby.

[The Stranger]

Now, here, ownership is a very cultural specific idea and western ideas of ownership are different to Maori ideas of it.

I see this type comment reasonably frequently, but can't recall any specifics. Perhaps it's simply a lazy press not bothering to explain the differences, but it occurs to me no real discussion on such ownership can take place without the idea of owership (in this context) being understood.
Obviously I am aware of the European concept of ownership in relationship to the seabed and foreshore being equal access and benefit for all.
So, may I enquire please as the difference/s in the Maori concept of ownership?

[Banditbandit]

My mistake.
I stand by my comment though.

Maori claiming exclusive rights to a style of tattooing is as stupid as the English asking Maori to pay to play rugby (a game which part of their culture).

In this case I happen to agree with you. The art form is not exclusive to our culture ... and neither is that particular style.

[Banditbandit]

are you claiming up close and personal experience? :woohoo:



I've met her ... and like her ... but the chance of up close and personal? No show mate - she swings the other way ..