The wisdom behind student loans?

[oldrider]

Food for thought? perhaps! http://www.lewrockwell.com/slavo/slavo38.1.html

How does this relate to our own situation? :confused:

[Indiana_Jones]

A rather depressing piece lol.

As mentioned in the other student loan thread, the problem I see is that kids a spoon feed through highschool that if you don't go to Uni, you're a loser. Of course the uni's will be pushing this idea along fully, bums on seats etc.

I personally think it's not the best idea for a highschool grad to go to uni doing a course if they have no idea what they want to do, or because they think they have to.

The actual loan bit isn't really an issue if you use the said degree for a job. Where as you see a lot of BA grads doing it 'just for interests sake'

-Indy

[Banditbandit]

Yes. part of the problem is that we have made fetishes of qualifications - in the past a job someone wouldhave got off the street (and done it really well) they now need a certificate for - and jobs that required a certificate now need a degee .. and peopel who would have been really good at those jobs are struggling to cope in classrooms - in uni or polytechs. I've even seen a unit standard for mucking out a stable - a course in shovelling shit for good sake ...

Another part of the problem is that many institutes, such as unis, exist for the staff - to do research, etc etc, and don't exist for the students .. I've talked to many uni teachers who see students as a hassle, who get in the way of the "really important things" like research ...

I didn't go straight from school to uni .. took a few years for me to get there ...

I believe everyne should be entitled to 15 years free education - the first 10 are compulsory - in school from 5 to 15 years old - the other 5 should be available for future education - enought to get a bachelors degree - the rest you pay for (either with cash of loan) .. (I'm prepared to accept some kind ofee at tertiary level - paid for with a loan or cash - but it should be a low level as education benefits us all.)

[Paul in NZ]

Yes. part of the problem is that we have made fetishes of qualifications - in the past a job someone wouldhave got off the street (and done it really well) they now need a certificate for - and jobs that required a certificate now need a degee .. and peopel who would have been really good at those jobs are struggling to cope in classrooms - in uni or polytechs. I've even seen a unit standard for mucking out a stable - a course in shovelling shit for good sake ...

Another part of the problem is that many institutes, such as unis, exist for the staff - to do research, etc etc, and don't exist for the students .. I've talked to many uni teachers who see students as a hassle, who get in the way of the "really important things" like research ...

I didn't go straight from school to uni .. took a few years for me to get there ...

I believe everyne shouldeb entitled to 1`5 years free education - the first 10 are compulsory - in school from 5 to 15 years old - the other 5 should be available for future education - enought to get a bacherlors degree - the rest you pay for (either with cash of loan) .. (I'm prepared to accept some kind ofee at tertiary level - paid for with a loan or cash - but it should be a low level as education benefits us all.)

Sensible post.

However I question how many loans are going to sensible qualifications. Near where I work some outfit runs course for 'travel' and I see these squads of hopefull air hostesses daily - oh dear god - they try so hard to get the look and miss by sooooo much its painful and yet the place encourages them - and takes the grant money. Its just so sad and criminal.

There are a lot of organisations out there organising these loans for dodgy qualifications - its got to stop....

[avgas]

I think we should nip it in the bud really.
I mean people can't waste tax payers money on stupid courses if they don't go to uni.
And they don't go to uni if they are not born.

Lets promote abortions and make people have to acquire breeding certificates.
Viola! No more student loan problems cos no more moron students.

.....Seriously...... if someone wants to argue the economics of student loans :blink:

What next, the lack of useful investment in super? I mean they are going to die anyway why spend any money on em.

[schrodingers cat]

I think we should nip it in the bud really.
I mean people can't waste tax payers money on stupid courses if they don't go to uni.
And they don't go to uni if they are not born.

Lets promote abortions and make people have to acquire breeding certificates.
Viola! No more student loan problems cos no more moron students.

.....Seriously...... if someone wants to argue the economics of student loans :blink:

What next, the lack of useful investment in super? I mean they are going to die anyway why spend any money on em.

You didn't learn much in school did you? Or in the great university of life?

Head. Arse. Suggest you seperate

[avgas]

You didn't learn much in school did you? Or in the great university of life?
More than you can imagine.

[jaffaonajappa]

I dont think its as black and white as some think.

I have two kids. One loves school, enjoys learning, debating, researching homework - extending her skills and knowledge. She keen as hell to continue learning as long as she can. Regardless of what career/job she thinks she would want to do, she wants to study and learn more, for now. So....she will be going to Uni.

Skid #2. Likes life, quick wins, lives for Rugby, and learns by trial and error. Hes quite bright, but just not interested (yet?) in academia. Hes probably not interested in Uni.

I cannot pay for either kids tertiary education, sadly. I can support (house/feed/clothe etc) them for the duration - but am convincing them they wouldnt like this (bwahahaha).

Thank god we have affordable tertiary education in this country. And the ability to pay it back down the track. The real issue here....I think...is what steps are we willing to take to ensure higher education recipients Repay them loans. Should we ban them from laving NZ till its repaid?

[JimO]

both my 19 yo twins are at Otago Uni one doing 1st year health sci and the other doing law/accounting and i would rather my taxes go towards their education than to the deadbeats on a benifet

[short-circuit]

New Zealanders used to have a reputation for being egalitarian...it's up there with the claim of being "clean and green" - no Tui for me thanks I don't drink

[jaffaonajappa]

New Zealanders used to have a reputation for being egalitarian...it's up there with the claim of being "clean and green" - no Tui for me thanks I don't drink

Hmmm. Not sure just how tongue-in-cheek you intended that post to be.
Egalitarian? Still think we take pride in being so - well comapred to loads of other nations.
Clean and Green? Well....ummm. We advertise it. Most of us think it. But we sure as hell arent yet practicing it....dare say we scarcely deserve this land, the way its being thrashed. But oops....my beers warming up.

[short-circuit]

Hmmm. Not sure just how tongue-in-cheek you intended that post to be.
Egalitarian? Still think we take pride in being so - well comapred to loads of other nations.
Clean and Green? Well....ummm. We advertise it. Most of us think it. But we sure as hell arent yet practicing it....dare say we scarcely deserve this land, the way its being thrashed. But oops....my beers warming up.

Not sure how head-up-arse your post is supposed to be - my tongue is fully centralized.

It would appear that a good number here would be glad to see a return to zero education for the poor and children up mine shafts

[jaffaonajappa]

Not sure how head-up-arse your post is supposed to be - my tongue is fully centralized.

It would appear that a good number here would be glad to see a return to zero education for the poor and children up mine shafts

Ahhhh. We should return to the pre 90's - and free tertiary education for all? I hear the Chinese would be willing to bankroll this for another decade. Till they foreclose all our mortgages and took the land of us. Im not sure they be keen on honouring that old 160 years ago treaty thingy either.

I think that social experiment has finnished.

[short-circuit]

Ahhhh. We should return to the pre 90's - and free tertiary education for all? I hear the Chinese would be willing to bankroll this for another decade. Till they foreclose all our mortgages and took the land of us. Im not sure they be keen on honouring that old 160 years ago treaty thingy either.

I think that social experiment has finnished.

Case in point. Enjoy your Tui...and your tax cut.

[avgas]

It would appear that a good number here would be glad to see a return to zero education for the poor and children up mine shafts
Can't use that one anymore. Working up a mine shaft pays more than the average grad job. We keep running out of poor kids to put up there. Bastards keep getting their kids educated.

Thank god for robots. Otherwise Fonterra would have been a flop.

[jaffaonajappa]

Can't use that one anymore. Working up a mine shaft pays more than the average grad job. We keep running out of poor kids to put up there. Bastards keep getting their kids educated.

Thank god for robots. Otherwise Fonterra would have been a flop.

We could import more kids from China.....but they seem to bring their extended families too....
OOPS. Sorry !

[mashman]

Food for thought? perhaps! http://www.lewrockwell.com/slavo/slavo38.1.html

How does this relate to our own situation? :confused:

I guess it's bound to happen... tis gonna be messy too... :facepalm: but gold and silver will see you right :shutup:

[avgas]

We could import more kids from China.....but they seem to bring their extended families too....
OOPS. Sorry !
That wouldn't work either. Govt would catch on and sting for their part either through the minimum wage or ..... import duty:shutup:

[scissorhands]

It would appear that a good number here would be glad to see a return to zero education for the poor and children up mine shafts

I left high school, did an apprenticeship and ended up in Western OZ.

Made enough in 2 years to buy an inner city AK house without a morguage then retired.

Fuck uni unless your in the neurotypical gang, want prestige and glamour:shutup::shutup: and want to promulgate this asshole Tory shitstem and be an 'inner circle party member', 'tool of the state' and/or 'whore of Babylon':shutup::shutup: that way you can be higher ranking chimp

:sunny:

[Banditbandit]

I left high school, did an apprenticeship and ended up in Western OZ.

Made enough in 2 years to buy an inner city AK house without a morguage then retired.

Fuck uni unless your in the neurotypical gang, want prestige and glamour:shutup::shutup: and want to promulgate this asshole Tory shitstem and be an 'inner circle party member', 'tool of the state' and/or 'whore of Babylon':shutup::shutup: that way you can be higher ranking chimp

:sunny:

SHIT !!! I happen to agree with you .. I also happen to teach in tertiary eduucation ... :facepalm:

[scissorhands]

SHIT !!! I happen to agree with you .. I also happen to teach in tertiary eduucation ... :facepalm:

Thats okay, your a likeable 'tool of the state'. I'm guessing from your opinions your working for good, and are enjoying the silverback time of your life.

I'm just bitter because of rejection:violin:

not

[Banditbandit]

Thats okay, your a likeable 'tool of the state'. I'm guessing from your opinions your working for good, and are enjoying the silverback time of your life.

I'm just bitter because of rejection:violin:

not

Thanks. And I'm sure that if the state knew what I taught in my classrooms I wouldn't keep my job very long ..

[avgas]

I left high school, did an apprenticeship and ended up in Western OZ.
Made enough in 2 years to buy an inner city AK house without a morguage then retired.
You would be the only 14 year old retiree I know.:wings: Good effort regardless.
Also its mortgage.

The one thing I have figured out is it takes all sorts in this world. Even in the world of the apprentice I know of people that have fallen either side of the dollar. Comes a lot down to the person rather than the job/study.

Trick is to get yourself above the Medium and everything else you do is personal choice. After 6 years of engineering, for some unknown reason I am now considered senior for what I know (scary concept really). So I decided to go back to Uni to try something else on for size. But I have to admit going back I suddenly saw some of the cool things I liked about Uni. Pretty much a similar feeling I get when I get to do stuff with my hands. But some of the fellas and uni lap it up and love having their nose in a book.

So yeh takes all sorts in this world. To say one is better than another aloud isn't really required. People tend to make their own decisions.
I have learnt not to beat my own drum too loud these days - The day I think I am superior to them is the day I start to get myself into trouble.

[Indiana_Jones]

All of our grads are great (well in my section at least), but some uni grads I have met have such an elitist attitude, "I went to blah blah blah and studied blah blah blah", like everyone has to take notice and that the world fucking owes them something because of it :facepalm:

Edit: I should make it clear I have no issue with people going to uni, a lot of them are clever kids. Just some of their attitudes I find too much to bare.

-Indy

[SPman]

We should return to the pre 90's - and free tertiary education for all? People keep quoting this at depressingly frequent intervals, as if "repitition makes true", but, I was there, and it certainly wasn't free! To me, or any of my mates. The costs,were about on par with now, but, if you had Higher Leaving Certificate, 90% of your fees were paid. Then again, the fees weren't as high as now. There was plenty of good paying, low skilled work available, however, which meant you could actually keep yourself solvent. The Freezing works, was my high paying hell of choice, but, the wharves were good, and the wool stores, or cleaning out the bilges of ships in for survey.....
Once Student Loans came in, it's amazing how fast fees went up.......

Thanks. And I'm sure that if the state knew what I taught in my classrooms I wouldn't keep my job very longAhhhh....one of the "interesting" teachers......

[avgas]

some of their attitudes I find too much to bare.
That isn't isolated to grads however.
I had a sparky who wouldn't listen to what I said.
"I've been doing this for 20 years....blah blah blah"
Didn't have the balls to admit that he had done it wrong for 20 years.

Grads biggest problem is the same problem most people have at that age, they don't know as much as they think they do, and don't realize it. Soon as they do, as everyone does over time (I hope) they are bloody good to have around, and do have a few good points every now and then.
I have had this problem in grads as I have with 18 year old apprentices. But that is life.

As for the 40+ year olds who don't like seeing stuff from a different angle because "they have been doing this for 20 years".......dunno what to do about that.

I mean think about what you do with your day to day life, what were you doing 20 years ago? Are they the same?

[SPman]

Just some of their attitudes I find too much to bare.
-Indy
:facepalm:

[Indiana_Jones]

That isn't isolated to grads however.
I had a sparky who wouldn't listen to what I said.
"I've been doing this for 20 years....blah blah blah"
Didn't have the balls to admit that he had done it wrong for 20 years...........

Good point and I agree. Also agree on the point you made that most grads soon learn their place pretty quickly. :)

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

:facepalm:

:facepalm::facepalm:

-Indy

[avgas]

There was plenty of good paying, low skilled work available, however, which meant you could actually keep yourself solvent. The Freezing works, was my high paying hell of choice, but, the wharves were good, and the wool stores, or cleaning out the bilges of ships in for survey.....
Not to mention the all the hydro schemes / power stations that went up then etc.

But I do think there is a form of arrogance today with kids. They are too good to dig holes or pick fruit.
Right now my old man is finding it hard to get boys to work on pipe jacking rigs in chch. But with the city life killed there he is finding it hard to keep them.

[mashman]

Made enough in 2 years to buy an inner city AK house without a morguage then retired.


Also its mortgage.


or a moregauge if that's what floats yer boat.

+1 on everything you've said avgas... bring brung