Normal to have fine bits of metal in oil filter?

[crfchick]

I changed my oil and oil filter over the weekend and noticed some fine metal particles in the oil filter. Is this normal??
This is after only one ride since the last oil change, since the last lot of oil looked like some water had gotten into it somehow so I wanted to be sure to flush it! When I changed the oil filter the first time, I noticed that the previous owner had not replaced the spring to hold the oil filter in place, so I'm wondering if this new oil filter was working double time, now that it's positioned in the right place...
The bike has also become a bit harder to start (but wondered if that was just this colder weather..)

[cbfb]

Doesn't sound good to me. Is the bike making any unusual noise? Check with a strong magnet to see whether they're ferrous. If it were me I'd be taking the sump off and seeing if there's anything inside. Also I personally would advise not riding it until you've discovered the source of the shrapnel.

Also did you get to the bottom of the water in the oil? Again that is a worry and should be investigated further before riding again, if it hasn't already been sorted out. Are you losing coolant? What is your compression like? Just wondering about the head gasket, could also explain having shit in the oil.

How long have you had the bike? Has it been fine up till now?

Anything else about the history of the bike or what it's doing currently that could give more clues? However obvious it might seem maybe it would help.

[crfchick]

Thanks for the advise! And I agree, no way am I riding it until I know what the (potential) problem is!
The bike hasn't been making any unusual noises and has been running smoothly. I've only had it a few months and it hasn't done all that many hours. It's only recently started being hard to start and I haven't figured out how the water got in the oil either, I haven't drowned the bike at all but just hoped that the water was from a bit of splashback...hmmm.
Compression seems ok to me (not too hard or soft), although at times the kickstart seems locked in place and doesn't want to go down.
The oil was pretty murky again at this oil change too, which is a worry, although not milky like before.


Doesn't sound good to me. Is the bike making any unusual noise? Check with a strong magnet to see whether they're ferrous. If it were me I'd be taking the sump off and seeing if there's anything inside. Also I personally would advise not riding it until you've discovered the source of the shrapnel.

Also did you get to the bottom of the water in the oil? Again that is a worry and should be investigated further before riding again, if it hasn't already been sorted out. Are you losing coolant? What is your compression like? Just wondering about the head gasket, could also explain having shit in the oil.

How long have you had the bike? Has it been fine up till now?

Anything else about the history of the bike or what it's doing currently that could give more clues? However obvious it might seem maybe it would help.

[cbfb]

Thanks for the advise! And I agree, no way am I riding it until I know what the (potential) problem is!
The bike hasn't been making any unusual noises and has been running smoothly. I've only had it a few months and it hasn't done all that many hours. It's only recently started being hard to start and I haven't figured out how the water got in the oil either, I haven't drowned the bike at all but just hoped that the water was from a bit of splashback...hmmm.
Compression seems ok to me (not too hard or soft), although at times the kickstart seems locked in place and doesn't want to go down.
The oil was pretty murky again at this oil change too, which is a worry, although not milky like before.

No unusual noises = good.

Water getting in via the air filter cause of drowning, while bad, should not get through to the crankcase unless damage occurs to the bore, piston or rings (I believe this is true, I may be wrong as I've not experienced it, hopefully someone will correct me if so). Milky oil is a common symptom of head gasket failure though.

When you say the oil was murky, can you describe it? Is this the oil that only ran once since the last change?

As for the kick start problems, that could be a number of things.

When I say check the compression, I meant can you get hold of a compression tester and get a reading? That would mean a lot to the folks on here, very useful diagnostic tool. I would strongly recommend starting with this and working your way from there. Shame you're in Welly, I'm a bit far away to lend you mine, but there may well be someone on here who can sort you out with one.

[Katman]

Milky oil is a common symptom of head gasket failure though.


Or more likely, a leaking water pump seal.

[crfchick]

Yes, this was the oil that had only been flushed though once (on a trail ride - in hindsight I should have flushed it through by running it in the garage and then dumped it straight away but I thought it would be ok because the 1st lot of oil wasn't milky, just a bit grey coloured...!).
This time the oil wasn't grey but it definately looked fairly black already and not that nice golden oil colour.
And the bike isn't using much coolant, I have barely needed to top it up.
You have given me a lot ideas to ponder over, thank you.

[cbfb]

Yes, this was the oil that had only been flushed though once (on a trail ride - in hindsight I should have flushed it through by running it in the garage and then dumped it straight away but I thought it would be ok because the 1st lot of oil wasn't milky, just a bit grey coloured...!).
This time the oil wasn't grey but it definately looked fairly black already and not that nice golden oil colour.
And the bike isn't using much coolant, I have barely needed to top it up.
You have given me a lot ideas to ponder over, thank you.

Hmmm, would like to have a look at that oil, hard to tell without seeing it. If the coolant is not going down and the engine is definitely more grey than milky, I would definitely check those particles with a magnet, can give a bit more idea. And you can get the oil analysed for coolant and type of metal etc.

[noobi]

Oil goes black from it being in contact with the clutch plates, it fouls up and turns black.
More than likely the fine metal particles are from the clutch plates wearing ( which is perfectly normal on a dirt bike).
There is no sump to drop off so you cant do that to quickly check the engine, only equivalent is to split the cases.
Unless the oil was really milky its unlikely to be coming from the bike, more likely is that it sucked some water in through the breather hose, ie if you stalled in or around water, and had to restart.
If it were me, I would be putting in new oil, then running the bike for 5 or 10 minutes, then dropping the oil, if its not milky then its unlikely to be internal, like I said.
If it is milky again, then I would proceed with further inspection of head gasket or water pump.

But back to the OP, yes it is normal to have fine metallic magnetic particles in the oil/filter, does the sump plug not have a magnet on it?

[Teava]

Oil goes black from it being in contact with the clutch plates, it fouls up and turns black.
More than likely the fine metal particles are from the clutch plates wearing ( which is perfectly normal on a dirt bike).
There is no sump to drop off so you cant do that to quickly check the engine, only equivalent is to split the cases.
Unless the oil was really milky its unlikely to be coming from the bike, more likely is that it sucked some water in through the breather hose, ie if you stalled in or around water, and had to restart.
If it were me, I would be putting in new oil, then running the bike for 5 or 10 minutes, then dropping the oil, if its not milky then its unlikely to be internal, like I said.
If it is milky again, then I would proceed with further inspection of head gasket or water pump.

But back to the OP, yes it is normal to have fine metallic particles in the oil/filter, does the sump plug not have a magnet on it?

What he said.

[kezzafish]

What he said.

I concur. sounds like a bit of the old oil in the breather trick. possibly resulting in a wee bit of engine wear if the filings you saw are not like the normal clutch plate "sparkles". But also possibly to do with the incorrect oil filter installment that you mentioned. Could you please elaborate on this for us to pontificate further?

[vr4king]

I had trouble with my oil going black as the ace of spades for the first couple of oil changes but it seems to be good now.........Ive put it down to changing oil brands from the prvious owner im using elf moto4 now for the engine side(yes its a honda)
Theres is normaly a few very small shiney things in there but nothing prolific

I have heard that brass coloured shavings are a clear sign that your crank is ready to let go

When I drain my GB side(using motul 2t GB oil)Its nearly always greyish but never alarmed about it as my old cr125 used to be the same im a heavy clutch user after coming of a 125 2t guees I never really dropped the clutch habit.

Im wandering if the water you talk about coulb be a condensation build up like you said it has gotten colder so that would prob have some factor on condensation id do what some other poster suggested and change oil run it for a few mins then dump it and recheck it for all your signs your looking for ifits an internal leak it will show up fairly quickly

And colder weather can cause hard starting as the air gets heavier it can play havoc with ya jetting I norm re-jet for the season..........engines love cold air they do run differently in dif temps and altitude affects things too

[Blagger]

I've got a compression tester here in the Wellytron - pm me if you want to test and I can bring it over

[Rupe]

checked you valve clearances?

You tube it, it's pretty simple to check.

[CRF119]

Um if the person before you didn't have the spring holding that filter in place then the filter had been doing nothing the whole time. Water is a concern but wouldn't cause the engine to start creating metal flakes through the oil. My CRF got plenty of water in it once it took 3 oil flushes to clear the merky mess out.


If it was me i would put new filter in + oil ride for 10 min and do another change to see what comes out and id repeat this until the oil comes out clean with no bits. Then id do a normal ride and see how dirty the oil gets if you get good lumps of metal you have a big problem, if you get small flakes then you may have a problem in a years time. Engines are constantly wearing out so id expect a few bits every now and again.

The brass shavings comment was spot on the Big end cage is made from brass.

My mate ran a CRF with no oil in the engine for over 30 min before it got sad enuf to die so i wouldn't worry to much. (Don't ask how it stuffed that up)

[jaffaonajappa]

I've only had it a few months and it hasn't done all that many hours.

But.....the bikes had enough use that its no longer in its "Running In" period yes?

[Scouse]

How long have you had the bike for? also if it is second hand how long did the privious owner ride it for befor selling it I belive that Motocross bikes should be reconditiond after every 30 hours riding

[crfchick]

Thanks so much guys! So it sounds as if this could be perfectly normal wear and tear? Yeah, Kezza I would say some of the bits were more like sand-sized "sparkles". There are no brass coloured bits in there. The reason I was concerned about these metal bits was because the bike had not been starting as well as it had been and because of the milky-ish oil, so I'm being super vigilant about it. And my friend replaced his oil filter at the same time as me, and his didn't have any fine metal bits in it so I was a bit worried!
The bike has done probably about 20 - 30 hours


I concur. sounds like a bit of the old oil in the breather trick. possibly resulting in a wee bit of engine wear if the filings you saw are not like the normal clutch plate "sparkles". But also possibly to do with the incorrect oil filter installment that you mentioned. Could you please elaborate on this for us to pontificate further?

[Jay GTI]

No offense intended, but christ there's a lot of crap being spouted in this thread.

Listen to Noobi.

[crfchick]

Just being careful as I didn't know if it was normal. Sounds like it is so that's awesome.
p.s what's the deal with these magnetic sump plugs? They sound good!


No offense intended, but christ there's a lot of crap being spouted in this thread.

Listen to Noobi.

[barty5]

No offense intended, but christ there's a lot of crap being spouted in this thread.

Listen to Noobi.

Dang your right there best watch out there another truck load on the way im sure. My 450 as with countless others have always had small traces of fleck in the oil you only have to see how they get ridden to guess how along with clutch abuse/wear these thing are not road bikes pot around (you'll notice all comments that are telling you the motor is poked are from the road section )

[ktm84mxc]

Yes magnetic sump plugs are great as they catch the particles floating in the oil.
Itz not uncommon for new bikes to have some particles in there oil, these normally come from the clutch plates & baskets.
To flush out the old watery engine oil may take 3 goes , as you need to clean between the clutch plates.
Check your gearbox breather hose as this can let water in if routed wrong, it must always face down otherwise itz just a funnel.

[cbfb]

you'll notice all comments that are telling you the motor is poked are from the road section

You're right, my experience is all with road bikes so will leave it to you experts, just trying to help :facepalm:

[Reckless]

yeh agree with the dirt bikers about the particles in the oil!!

BTW: The oil change time in the manual for my 200exc is 20 hours.

Just to add a couple of points to the discussion. If your clutch plates are aluminum as most are (or a combination of steel and ali)

There will be more discoloration of the oil
There will be more particles in the oil
Your magnetic sump plug will not take these out.

Common mod with the Cr 250 was to put all steel plates in! Gave a little fly wheel weight effect, didn't wear out as fast and stopped a lot of the slugging problems! Its a good mod if they have steels for the RMZ next time you have to clutch kit it!!

Agree with the comment on the oil filter if its had no spring holding it into its mounting and its been floating round. Then its been doing stuff all which is possibly the reason your oil looks a lot more crap then usual! Fix this as top priority!!

[vr4king]

No offense intended, but christ there's a lot of crap being spouted in this thread.

Listen to Noobi.


Hmm Im hoping that wasnt aimed at my post at all hahahahhaha
Were all trying to help out

[cbfb]

do road bikes even have sumps?

Some wet sump engines do but not all.

[Jay GTI]

Hmm Im hoping that wasnt aimed at my post at all hahahahhaha
Were all trying to help out

Nah not aimed at you. Agreed that people are trying to help, but bad advice is far worse than no advice...

[CRF119]

How long have you had the bike for? also if it is second hand how long did the privious owner ride it for befor selling it I belive that Motocross bikes should be reconditiond after every 30 hours riding

If you do regular oil changes id expect to see a easy 50-100 hours before it becomes an issue. Maybe 30 for rings if you want the most from your bike but that is all.

[Rupe]

On a four stroke

Change you oil every 5hrs
Oil filter 10hrs
air filter EVERY ride


Check you valve clearances if you are having starting issues.

[motor_mayhem]

for my old RMZ the manual said oil change every 6 hours and I had no problems for the 2+years I had it, for the newer CRF manual says oil change every 15 hours. I see no reason to disagree with the manual

[Rupe]

for my old RMZ the manual said oil change every 6 hours and I had no problems for the 2+years I had it, for the newer CRF manual says oil change every 15 hours. I see no reason to disagree with the manual

Oil is cheap, motors arent. There is heap of info on the web about why 5hrs is a good time to be changing the oil on a 4stroke.

Lets say I see brass fillings in my oil, you'd be running another 10hrs or untill it shit the bottom end. Bit of a gamble. Up to you I guess but thats what majority of the guys that own 4strokes do that I know.


Actually just reading again, CRF would be different as they run seperate trans and engine oil, RMZ's don't.

[Blagger]

p.s what's the deal with these magnetic sump plugs? They sound good!


Here's a link to some pics of some for sale
http://www.ziptyracing.com/products/products.aspx?id=MTAyMw==

They're a pretty common item, a few searches should get you there

[vr4king]

Oil is cheap, motors arent. There is heap of info on the web about why 5hrs is a good time to be changing the oil on a 4stroke.

Lets say I see brass fillings in my oil, you'd be running another 10hrs or untill it shit the bottom end. Bit of a gamble. Up to you I guess but thats what majority of the guys that own 4strokes do that I know.


Actually just reading again, CRF would be different as they run seperate trans and engine oil, RMZ's don't.

I still change mine every 5hrs and its a honda and like many have said there is always very fine "stripper glitter" in it

[Jay GTI]

I do an oil and filter change every 5 hours. The filter is overkill, but it's not going to harm the engine and I can afford it.

The Kato comes with a magnetic sump plug, there's always glitter on mine as well. Last oil change was after a particularly clutch-abusing ride at Woodhill and it was covered in crap, oil was very cloudy too. It's normal.

[cold comfort]

bought a low km DR 650 off the internet. Sounded a bit rattly so immediately changed the oil. Ferrous and non-ferrous sludge in the oil. Thought "oh dear, caveat emptor, I'm f*#@& now"! Ran it for a bit, drained it and no foreign substances this time. No problems since despite motard and trail work. I suspect the guy who got it new never did ANY oil changes.

[crfchick]

Bike still wasn't starting well so got the valve clearances checked, they were all over the place and after digging deeper turns out there was heaps of wear under the cam shaft and the top end is now screwed, bike was most likely run without oil prior to me owning it! So beware if you find metal filings in your oil, they didn't even look like anything too alarming...


checked you valve clearances?

You tube it, it's pretty simple to check.

[White trash]

No offense intended, but christ there's a lot of crap being spouted in this thread.

Listen to Noobi.


Dang your right there best watch out there another truck load on the way im sure. My 450 as with countless others have always had small traces of fleck in the oil you only have to see how they get ridden to guess how along with clutch abuse/wear these thing are not road bikes pot around (you'll notice all comments that are telling you the motor is poked are from the road section )


Nah not aimed at you. Agreed that people are trying to help, but bad advice is far worse than no advice...



Bike still wasn't starting well so got the valve clearances checked, they were all over the place and after digging deeper turns out there was heaps of wear under the cam shaft and the top end is now screwed, bike was most likely run without oil prior to me owning it! So beware if you find metal filings in your oil, they didn't even look like anything too alarming...

Thoroughly suckfull situation, but I guess the "no nothing" road riders nailed it first time round. :facepalm:

[noobi]

Thoroughly suckfull situation, but I guess the "no nothing" road riders nailed it first time round. :facepalm:

Got a quote for the suggestion that the motor may have been oil starved and the cam would wear the journal?

[White trash]

Got a quote for the suggestion that the motor may have been oil starved and the cam would wear the journal?

No, but the people that suggested it could be a worry were dismissed as "bad advisors" and there's nothing to worry about. Just found it ironic is all.

[browny]

its usual for my bike to have a bit of glitter at an oil change so i wouldnt have been worried either,not usual for bike to get run with no oil in it tho.i guess thats the down side of buying a new bike and not knowing its history.

[Jay GTI]

No, but the people that suggested it could be a worry were dismissed as "bad advisors" and there's nothing to worry about. Just found it ironic is all.

Well as:

a) it is perfectly normal to have glitter on the sump plug

and:

b) there has been a lot of bollocks in this thread and the fact there are issues with the bike doesn't make the advice any less bollocks

I fail to see the irony. I do however see someone with a bit of bad luck...

[vr4king]

No, but the people that suggested it could be a worry were dismissed as "bad advisors" and there's nothing to worry about. Just found it ironic is all.


Agreed with others,99% of the advise here was all gravy no need for comments like this i say we were all only trying to help just because we wernt bang on with our diagnosis doesnt make us all unhelpfull and potentially damaging.

:yes::yes::rockon:

[crfchick]

I really appreciate all the help and ideas you guys have suggested. I was more aware of potential problems and otherwise may not have put the bike into the shop to get it checked out if it hadn't been for all your opinions.
Just wanted others to beware that even some "stripper glitter" could indicate bad things!


Agreed with others,99% of the advise here was all gravy no need for comments like this i say we were all only trying to help just because we wernt bang on with our diagnosis doesnt make us all unhelpfull and potentially damaging.

:yes::yes::rockon:

[CRF119]

The bike must have been run a long time with no oil, A mate forgot to put oil back in his CRF250 and it ran for 30 min before he noticed power loss. Cam and rocker had worn.

He was told to replace the oil pump just in case so that may be a good idea.

[crfchick]

Thanks for that info CRF119. Sounds like what's happened to my bike too - cam is worn and the housing the cam shafts sit in is burred (hence the aluminium in the oil). My concern is when or what casued the bike to be run without oil, it must have occured before I bought the bike, but if the oil filter wasn't sitting in the right place because the spring was missing, would this also have caused a blockage to the engine?
Other concern is how far the damage may have spread, I'd hate to get it all fixed up to have the same problem occur!


The bike must have been run a long time with no oil, A mate forgot to put oil back in his CRF250 and it ran for 30 min before he noticed power loss. Cam and rocker had worn.

He was told to replace the oil pump just in case so that may be a good idea.

[CRF119]

Having no spring would cause the oil no to be filtered. The oil could cause a blockage to the top end but unlikely.

My friend drained his oil fitted the sump plug and then got side tracked and never thought about it till the bike slowed and i inspected it.Result was no oil at all. Maybe the same happened to your bike but in steed of fixing it they just filled it with oil and sold it. Id like to think not because it cost my mate 2.5g to fix his.

Probably worth a full strip, clean and inspect.

[Taz]

Not sure what year your RMZ is but apparently it's easy to put the oil filter in the wrong way round and this results in top end oil starvation.