Advanced Rider Training

[Mom]

We read so much on here about track days and track based training days and how beneficial they are to improve our abilities. But, for many the track is not where we want to go and learn, or to hone our skills. It simply has no relevance to the rider to go as fast as you possibly can in a contained environment. Before I get hammered too badly I am aware that that is not what some track training days are all about, but all the same, the word "track" is enough to turn some off the thought of extra training. So we bumble along, learning lessons, often the hard way.

Then we have the ones that have been riding for many, many years and know all about it, they have not crashed or fallen off in x number of years. How about the now made famous group of BAB's (Born Again Bikers), taking their young person fitness and riding styles on to a modern bike often with fatal consequences? Neither of these groups thinks they need any refresher training so don’t seek it out.

As a group we have an appalling track record of crashes, deaths and serious injury. Our way over inflated ACC levy charges are only a small part of the effects of our complete inability to see that the problem actually lies with us. It is not the other party that is the problem it is only and always down to us. Personally, I take offense being included in that dynamic.

I know that there are times that simply NOTHING could have prevented an incident, and I want us to be able to really get friggen indignant, pissed off, and well compensated when these incidents happen. At the moment, we don’t stand a chance of being taken seriously.

[Mom]

I got my license in 1976. It was piece of wees really, 5 oral questions and a trip around the block, oh, a couple of figure 8’s in the car park and some slalom manoeuvres to make sure I did not fall off, and I was away. My only mode of transport was a bike, and I commuted from (Places in Auckland to other places in Auckland) Bucklands Beach/Howick to Greenlane Hospital, or rode like a mad thing around the city on my days off. I was taught to ride off road, and used to do a bit of off road stuff on the weekends.

Over the years I rode many bikes, I was in the business of selling them you see. Riding took a bit of a back seat for me with the arrival of babies etc, but I still rode from time to time, and spent many an uncomfortable hour on the back of my then hubbies Harley. Fast forward a few years and I am riding once again, and enjoying it very much indeed. A bit rusty at some things but it soon comes back. I was happy and confident, and never pushed my luck on the old girl I was riding, she had issues that sometimes caught me out, but my skill level/riding experience prevented us from coming to harm. I never for one moment thought about getting some training, I had been riding for years after all.

[Mom]

I had a tiny, slow speed off at the end of last year, the very first time I have “binned” a bike in over 35 years. I don’t count the odd drop due to lack of leg length/unkind camber/surface issues, or any time I fell off on the dirt, or that one time I ended bars down, tyres up in a drain in a driveway avoiding a dog, while going 1 kph, that was a lack of momentum, and totally the dogs fault.

This “bin” was completely my fault. If it was possible to kick my own arse I would have. Everyone knows you NEVER use your front brake, by its self, on an off camber slope, in a field of pea metal fines. The front wheel washes so fast you don’t even realise you have fallen, until you are lying on the road wondering how the hell you got there, with a campervan driver standing over you asking if you are ok! Unhurt but embarrassed, broken r/h mirror stem, a rear brake pedal that needs to be levered off the cases, and totally pissed off, you keep going. Mind you, if I had not been able to ride the bike after, I am fairly certain she would be lying in the drink, at the end of the Rawene Wharf, for I would have wheeled her off there myself, I was that pissed off.

Then I discovered my confidence is shot. Slow speed is now an issue. Never has been before. Thankfully I am a country gal and open roads are my riding environment, no slow speed skills required.

Still no thought of getting some tuition, I have been riding forever after all. I will cope, I never crash, I made one mistake and I doubt I will ever repeat it.

[Mom]

In Albany, a little less than 100km commute a day. Common sense dictates a bike is the only answer, but I don’t trust my old BB to be reliable, so I buy a new bike. Then I discover that slow speed riding is actually a real problem for me. No fear of falling off, totally happy to ride, but tense as hell, in slow speed situations, I am talking 5 to 10 kph slow, though 8 kph in my carpark at work is a breeze. Happy to lane split, no worries cruising up the side of cars stopped at lights, but absolutely rigid if I have to pull in to the queue due to a traffic island, and then have to do the half car length creep. The last thing I need is to be wound like a spring getting through the traffic at the end of the day. My morning commute is a breeze.

So who can help me? I don’t want to do a track day, as I already ride as fast as I want to with no problems, and tracks are not slow speed environments. I need to learn, or re-learn the skills I need. I am not invincible. I should have these skills, but apparently, I don’t. I love every part of riding my Millie, the commute and the fun.
I contacted Tricia O’Connor from Roadcraft School of Motorcycling.

www.rcsom.co.nz

I used to mind her shop for her, she will be kind to me :yes:

A 15 minute observation ride, where we never got above 70 k/ph. saw her writing what looked like a novel when we stopped, she assured me it was just “notes”.

[Mom]

How the hell I have survived so long on 2 wheels astounds me. Why have I not sought out professional, advanced training, until I realised I had a problem? Then I realise it is about ego, I should have embraced the concept of training long ago.

This is not about me, though I have used my story to illustrate what I think is a real issue for us (bikers/motorcyclists). How can we encourage riders to accept we are not invincible, and we don’t know it all? The complete revelation a 15 minute observation ride gave me in relation to my riding cannot be measured in dollar value.
How to convince others is the purpose of this thread.

[Latte]

Not that I've been but sounds like NASS is for you. Slow speed maneuvering is what they do.

[Mom]

Not that I've been but sounds like NASS is for you. Slow speed maneuvering is what they do.

NASS is in Auckland, at night when I want to be home and relaxing.

I am not looking for optons for my training, I want to explore why we as a group dont seek out training and how we can encourage people to take up further training.

[Hawkeye]

I was lucky enough to get on an Advanced Rider Training course last weekend with Andrew Templeton www.roadsafe.co.nz (Thank you Upper Hutt Council for sponsoring it). Slow speed manouvering, emergency stopping, ride awareness.... the list goes on. Learnt so much and realised that I have so much more to learn.
Looking to do the next stage ASAP.

[quickbuck]

I am not looking for optons for my training, I want to explore why we as a group dont seek out training and how we can encourage people to take up further training.
Beats me why people don't either......

I do think it is the ol' "I learnt how to ride when I was 15, and have heaps of experience on the road. What more do I need to know?" attitude.
Along with, you can't teach anybody anything they think they already know. Nobody wants to do a course on how to suck eggs.

OR, it may well be that people are afraid that they won't look as good as they think they are in front of a group of others.

[Mom]

I was lucky enough to get on an Advanced Rider Training course last weekend with Andrew Templeton www.roadsafe.co.nz (Thank you Upper Hutt Council for sponsoring it). Learnt so much and realised that I have so much more to learn.
Looking to do the next stage ASAP.

So you got one sponsored, what tempted you? How can you empart how important it is to invest in further training? This is a bit of think tank. You learned heaps and want more, I learned heaps and want more. How to encourage others to do the same?

[Mom]

OR, it may well be that people are afraid that they won't look as good as they think they are in front of a group of others.

How do we change that attitude?

[quickbuck]

How do we change that attitude?
Million dollar question there Mom.

I think over time, as more go to advanced courses, they will tell their mates it is actually fun. Nobody is judged on their riding ability on a course.......

I do judge people on their riding ability on the road though. Call it a survival skill. I don't really want to be near a bike that the rider doesn't know how to ride.

[BMWST?]

its funny isnt it...i attanded an advanced rdng course many many many years ago.From there was asked if i wanted to become involved n taking beginner motorbike schools which i did.I then became nvolved in the advanced courses so over time attended many many days of training.But when i got my new to me bike after many yrears off the first thng i did was go an an "advanced refresher" course,I guess i am a bab.

[MadDuck]

I think over time, as more go to advanced courses, they will tell their mates it is actually fun. Nobody is judged on their riding ability on a course.......

I totally agree with this. Is it that people want to learn but are not sure what courses are on offer? For example I would not want to be on a course with totally new riders...went on one once and didnt enjoy it one little bit.

I recently completed a Karel Pavich training day for "crusier" riders. I will do it again without heistation. Then will do the second course as well. The day was geared specifically for our types of bikes and was only a small group with plenty of instructors to assist on the day.

[Katman]

As one step toward improving bike handling skills I'd like to see a lot more motorcyclists getting involved in the gymkhana type events - the sort that only the Japanese (and American police riders) seem to excel at.

[raftn]

Good thread Mom, and a very relevant one. Unfortunatly the very people who should be reading this thread never venture into this part of the forum.

I was in the exact situation as you, and was embarressed at how I had managed to stay alive on the bike with out any formal training. Being passionate about something, doesnt mean you are any good at it! Becoming a well skilled rider is a lifetime experince and does not end once you have a license.

What many new and born again riders dont relise, is how much skill they are actually lacking, and when they do relise it is to late. This hearbreaking thought came to me as I stood over the coffin of a very young work collegue.

Since I attended a couple of sessions with Tricia, I have noticed a marked improvement, especially at how I am handling the bike at slow speed and hazard awareness. It certainly was a humbling experince, yet as you so well said, a dollar value cannot be put on it.

You have shown a great deal of courage by saying what you have, admitting your faults, but more improtantly doing some thing about it. Hopefully your actions will encourage others to embark on the same journey. There is nothing wrong about coming on here and being truthful.......

I am sure also you are enjoying your biking far more now than ever before. Thanks for sharing this story, I think it is one that more people need to read, and in doing so may be motivated to eat humble pie and go out and get some decent training.

[zeocen]

As one step toward improving bike handling skills I'd like to see a lot more motorcyclists getting involved in the gymkhana type events - the sort that only the Japanese (and American police riders) seem to excel at.

I would love to have a go at this shit, seriously. I see them on YouTube and it just makes me want to have a go instantly.

My only reservation is that I don't fancy dropping my daily mode of transport, because I need it to get to work (and it's shiny and pretty) so it would be awesome if there was such an event where they had a few shitters with crash bars you could have a merry ol' time on. Either that or there could be a beginners version where I could hone some skills but not fear of dropping my bike from pushing my low-speed boundaries.

Seriously, I really, really would love to do Gymkhana.

[Katman]

I would love to have a go at this shit, seriously. I see them on YouTube and it just makes me want to have a go instantly.

My only reservation is that I don't fancy dropping my daily mode of transport, because I need it to get to work (and it's shiny and pretty) so it would be awesome if there was such an event where they had a few shitters with crash bars you could have a merry ol' time on. Either that or there could be a beginners version where I could hone some skills but not fear of dropping my bike from pushing my low-speed boundaries.

Seriously, I really, really would love to do Gymkhana.

I believe racefactory was keen to get an event like this happening. You could PM him and see if it might be something you could work in with him on.

[Maha]

I would love to have a go at this shit, seriously. I see them on YouTube and it just makes me want to have a go instantly.

My only reservation is that I don't fancy dropping my daily mode of transport, because I need it to get to work (and it's shiny and pretty) so it would be awesome if there was such an event where they had a few shitters with crash bars you could have a merry ol' time on. Either that or there could be a beginners version where I could hone some skills but not fear of dropping my bike from pushing my low-speed boundaries.

Seriously, I really, really would love to do Gymkhana.

I have always maintained that, 'With the right people behind an idea, it takes bugger all for it to be a success'.

The first step is always the hardest. Once thast been given a kick, the snowball effect becomes evident.

[Gone Burger]

I was lucky enough to get on an Advanced Rider Training course last weekend with Andrew Templeton www.roadsafe.co.nz (Thank you Upper Hutt Council for sponsoring it). Slow speed manouvering, emergency stopping, ride awareness.... the list goes on. Learnt so much and realised that I have so much more to learn.
Looking to do the next stage ASAP.

I tried to get on this course Kenny - whilst still in my halo. I was very willing to do the half day of theory, and then watch from the side the practical. They responded and said "they can not accomodate Katie-Jane" and I was annoyed. Me, who crashed badly, who obviously needs more training, and is willing to do so before I am even back on the road, and they feel it is not necessary for me to attend, becuase I couldn't do the riding side of it. I will try again for the July course. But what more can I do? Stay off a bike for the next 6 months and forget alot of the theory I have learnt from the other 5 training courses I attended, because I am not using it and keeping it all familiar? Doesn't this mean I will be a bigger risk getting back on the road because I will have much further to go to get back to where I was pre-accident?

I do know many friends who have been riding for years have decided to go an upskill, and attened courses like these, either for free or pay to attend ones like Pro Rider courses. I respect them fully, especially when they are experienced riders. But it is not above them to learn further and be taught. There are however many who DO think they are too good for these courses and will be hard pushed to attend. This is why I have been attending courses since day one, and will continue to attend any that I can.

5 motorcycle accidents in the Wellington region that I know of in the weekend just gone. Pretty shocking numbers right there. Think you have a very valid point mom, and there is plenty of proof to back it up.

[matdaymon]

I've only been riding a couple of years now, am still to get through the restricted stage of my licence and on to my full. Think I have 12months left of something. I'm in no hurry to get my full and won't be wasting my money on the 'defensive driving course' which I personally think should be banned it is that ineffective.

I would much rather spend the money on doing one of these courses or in an ideal world both one of these and a track course as I one day want to get out on the track for shits and giggles.

Anyway for someone in my position, being a student with no income, only mode of transport is the bike and seemingly no chance of a job from the 23 negative applications for jobs I'm qualified for in the past 6months the cost of these courses is the main off-putting factor. Much like the first aid course I'd like to do, I simply cannot spare the cash to go and do a training course.

If only that ACC rip off on my rego gave me a discount on these kinds of courses... NOW THERE IS AN IDEA NICK SMITH & CO!

[The End]

Anyway for someone in my position, being a student with no income, only mode of transport is the bike and seemingly no chance of a job from the 23 negative applications for jobs I'm qualified for in the past 6months the cost of these courses is the main off-putting factor. Much like the first aid course I'd like to do, I simply cannot spare the cash to go and do a training course.

This was exactly the point I was going to raise.

The cost of rider tuition is too much for some people and so they choose not to participate in it. The old "she'll be right" attitude takes over and they assume they don't need the training.

That and knowing that there are actually courses out there to refresh and/or enhance your rider skills would be the two main reasons I think of.

[Mom]

If only that ACC rip off on my rego gave me a discount on these kinds of courses... NOW THERE IS AN IDEA NICK SMITH & CO!

So, if for example, I managed to get some funding for some lessons, you would be a starter? Probably still be a small cost involved, but much less than standard charges.

[Grant`]

I went and did the superbike school levels 1 and 2 and from that (yes I know its on a track)i learned so much about techniques on how to go around a corner. Things i either did sub consiciously and didn't realise or I did the hard way.

I never believe I was a fast rider, but I did believe I was safe and that in itself was a bit of a lie. I am a lot safer now after having done the above course and would recommend it to any and everyone to do.

don't really have any advanced rider courses up here in Whangarei I am aware of.

[James Deuce]

It intrigues me that Local Government takes a such positive role in Motorcycle Education while central Government tries to use the big sticks of increasing costs and penalties to moderate behaviour.

I used to belong to a bike club made up mainly of riding instructors and their partners. Andrew and Lynne were members, as was F5Dave. We used to have Gymkhanas held mainly on grass but sometimes in a car park, check club members riding (without being officious Nazis) and spend time helping each other out with maintenance and riding skills. The best thing we ever did was the great Steinlager Experiment. A gymkhana event ridden on old trail, trials and bucket bikes to see how your fine motor skills and cognitive powers decrease rapidly under even the smallest amount of alcoholic influence. One beer screws up your ability to ride over a see-saw made from a barrel and a plank. One.

There's a whole bunch of cultural issues around the training thing, not least of which is that the process of getting a license is seen as "The End". Once you have it you're up for anything. For those about to be confined to cars it's not such a big deal because hitting your letterbox at 20 km/hr just dents stuff. Hurts on a bike. Probably costs more too. People have mentioned the ego thing too. I'm starting to think that having ACC as a safety net has been a bad thing. You cause an accident for someone and they get hurt and the worst you get is dangerous causing injury and you might get disqualified for a month and get a $600 fine. People have completely accepted the accident theory of motor vehicle incidents. They're a mistake and no one is to blame. I could go on and on but what's the point? No one wants to learn that they're fallible, lacking skills (from people skills to actual riding skills) and most of all vulnerable.

There's no incentive to get training that specifically improves your ability to be a better road user, to be a better vehicle technician, to be a more skilled rider. I applaud the councils in the GWR. These training courses have been held repeatedly at no cost to the trainees for years now. At the times when I have a bike I always make a point of going to them, but I'm too friggin' stupid to book a yearly refresher that I pay for. She'll be right and the excuse of no money quickly overwhelms the desire to keep my mind and skills sharp, so I get lazy and complacent and get nailed by an ovine.

[Tricia1000]

Interesting thread. Will post a longer reply when I get to a pc. iPhone is very tedious when composing a long message.
I am happy to do training with any one and at any level. I might try the council again to see if they might sponsor some training, or even some of my contacts in ACC.

[The Singing Chef]

Iv'e found that NASS helps alot, we do the slow speed gyhmkanha courses, etc... I would also like to participate in a training course, especially if it's cheap. The hunger for knowledge is growing and it's fun to push yourself to new limits learning bike safety maneuvers.

[willytheekid]

I tried to get on this course Kenny - whilst still in my halo. I was very willing to do the half day of theory, and then watch from the side the practical. They responded and said "they can not accomodate Katie-Jane" and I was annoyed. Me, who crashed badly, who obviously needs more training, and is willing to do so before I am even back on the road, and they feel it is not necessary for me to attend, becuase I couldn't do the riding side of it. I will try again for the July course. But what more can I do? Stay off a bike for the next 6 months and forget alot of the theory I have learnt from the other 5 training courses I attended, because I am not using it and keeping it all familiar? Doesn't this mean I will be a bigger risk getting back on the road because I will have much further to go to get back to where I was pre-accident?.

The instructors made the correct choice sorry Katiepie.
To have you turn up just for the theory is a waste of there time and yours.(and not to mention the risk you pose to yourself and others while riding injuried!)
Im a HUGE fan of rider training and highly recommend them to everyone...but If your injured or unable to take part in the practical excerise it is truly a waste of time going as the theory is preparing you for the practical, getting you mentaly prepared to accept change and advice from a stranger, and to look at yourself, the thinking process and skills you use when when riding.
If you can't put the theory into practice and observe the change in habits or style of riding etc..how would you know if the advice and training is working for you? and who is going to observe and coach you into these safer riding & thinking practices.
Great attitude wanting to learn after what you have been through Katipie, but patience is lesson one & knowing your own limits is #2....once your fully healed and ready I don't see anything on this planet stopping you from attending and enjoying!
....I bet the instructors will LOVE your attitude and resilience just as much as we all do.
Just wish the Govt would fund these course's at all levels (learner,street & track)

PS: GREAT POST MOM!:love:

[george formby]

It's dawned on moi, and I have shared this with the OP that your never to old to learn.
As the years tick by my annual mileage becomes less & I'm losing the "sharpness" I had when I rode big miles in all weathers. at times I feel my confidence teeter in a certain situation when I know that I am more than capable of dealing with it. Bit of an alarm bell for me.

I think gymkhana would be great fun in an ad hoc way for those who are interested to meet & greet & have some fun while honing or developing skills. I'm keen to see how this thread develops.:yes::scooter:

[buellbabe]

At the risk of repetition...track days are not training days.

Training days are specifically geared towards learning or improving and perfecting specific skills.
Such as basic slow manoevres, u-turns (no-one wants to f**k up a u-turn in the middle of no-where and suddenly be in the wrong place at the wrong time), emergency braking, counter steering, hazard avoidance etc...

If any of this sounds familiar its probably cos you have done a Karel Pavich ProRider course.

I highly recommend them. I have been riding for 26 years and I still learnt stuff from the 2 courses I did. I enjoyed the Puke day so much I did the advanced Manfeild day a month later!

I'm still waiting for ACC to get with the programme and give levy discounts to ALL riders who are proactive enough to do these training days.(yeah right) I think its something that the various Biker Rights groups should be lobbying hard for.

[Maha]

Not one biker should consider themself any better than their last ride out.
Once you think that you have nothing else to learn, think again because its a delusive oversight.
I dont know much about the 'Gymkhana' thing but the word seems to have caught on.
I practice progressive/emergency breaking when approaching a set of lights, not all the time, just when it suits.
It has saved me twice now in the past.
This idea should be pushed along and with the input form some licensed instrutors it can only be a worthwhile and prudent exercise.

[SPman]

What many new and born again riders dont realise, is how much skill they are actually lacking, and when they do realise it is to late.
Not just new and bjorn agains........

[Okey Dokey]

I was fortunate enough to do 2 motorcycle based courses while getting my full license. The courses were on offer in Blenheim at the time. They helped shorten the period I was on my L and restricted plate, which was why I took them. We did hill starts, cone manouevres, circles on hillsides, group rides on local roads etc. The only track part was a brief blat on the local cart track :) i was lucky to get such training early on in my riding.

About 20 years later I chose to do a Karel Pavich course on the track. Motivation: self improvement, wanting to gain confidence and such. I liked the fact that it was women only, and also thought it would be good to go on a track and ride after reading about it so often here on kb.

It was great. I learned quite a lot on the day, and have continued to master more things as the course presented a lot of material, but you can practice on your own after you have completed it, which is what i have done.

Barriers? Cost- over $100, plus food, hotel, fuel. Distance- I live 3 1/2 hours from Chch, similar from Dunedin. Time- as a factor of distance, a full day course took 3 days. One up, one training, one home. Was it worth it? Definitely!

[wysper]

Would you guys stop talking up the value of these courses.
I will have to get off my arse and do the Cruiser course when it hits Puke in Sept now.


Meanies the lot of you... that money could go on tassels for my Harley you know!!

[James Deuce]

Would you guys stop talking up the value of these courses.
I will have to get off my arse and do the Cruiser course when it hits Puke in Sept now.


Meanies the lot of you... that money could go on tassels for my Harley you know!!

It's Ok it's not a REAL Harley what with being only a Sporty and an 883 at that.

[martybabe]

What many new and born again riders dont relise, is how much skill they are actually lacking, and when they do relise it is to late.

.




There's a whole bunch of cultural issues around the training thing, not least of which is that the process of getting a license is seen as "The End". Once you have it you're up for anything.

Couldn't agree more, 36 years ago when they handed me my full license I read in the text that I was now an accomplished, experienced, expert rider :facepalm:

36 years later, I am astonished that they let me out on the streets with such a lack of understanding and lack of knowledge of the skills and mindset I needed to stay alive.

Passing your full test on a bike means you are entitled to ride a motorcycle on the roads, that's it, nothing more. It doesn't mean you are any good at it, it doesn't mean you won't cock it up at the first opportunity and every subsequent one come to think of it.

I have personally done and passed every conceivable motor vehicle training course ever devised over the years, high speed, low speed, skid pan, frangjipan. way too many to list or remember.

Despite all this training and despite 36 two wheeled years on the Tarmac, there is never a ride goes by where I don't learn something new, never a ride goes by where I don't try to improve my skills and observation (not always successfully), still, on the evolutionary scale of a motorcyclists journey, I am barely walking upright yet.

Humans design parameters specify a maximum cruising speed of 8KPH, we were never meant to pilot a big unstable lump of metal around at any speed, it ain't easy, it needs lots of training, practice and skill to accomplish, even to an OK standard.

PS; Today's lesson was: whilst it is OK to use a big 4x4 as a shield as 200+ beefies meander their way past you, moving off close behind a big 4x4 after 200+ beeffies have meandered their way past you, with your visor open is not OK, not unless you like being force fed a cow shit missile from the rear wheels of a 4x4. :shit:

[wysper]

It's Ok it's not a REAL Harley what with being only a Sporty and an 883 at that.

Ahh you're right, good point. Thank god for that. As you were.

[matdaymon]

So, if for example, I managed to get some funding for some lessons, you would be a starter? Probably still be a small cost involved, but much less than standard charges.

If it was a price I could afford (say <$50-$75) and didnt conflict with uni HELL YES.

Sadly I think I'm not representative of 90% of the riders my age who are rip shit and 'busted up my cbr250rr on the side of woodcocks road ow' but at least I realize I want to be riding a long time and definitely don't want to be another statistic for ACC to use to drive us off the roads completely.

[Mom]

If it was a price I could afford (say <$50-$75) and didnt conflict with uni HELL YES.

Sadly I think I'm not representative of 90% of the riders my age who are rip shit and 'busted up my cbr250rr on the side of woodcocks road ow' but at least I realize I want to be riding a long time and definitely don't want to be another statistic for ACC to use to drive us off the roads completely.

Ok, so you are prepared to pay a reasonable amount for some training, very cool indeedy. Watch this space...

[Latte]

Ok, so you are prepared to pay a reasonable amount for some training, very cool indeedy. Watch this space...

Ahh, so this was the forum version of an infomercial....but wait, there's more!

p/t - with the learner rides , and now possibly this training I think what you guys are giving back to riding is :2thumbsup:

[blue rider]

Anyway for someone in my position, being a student with no income, only mode of transport is the bike and seemingly no chance of a job from the 23 negative applications for jobs I'm qualified for in the past 6months the cost of these courses is the main off-putting factor. Much like the first aid course I'd like to do, I simply cannot spare the cash to go and do a training course.


:brick::argh:

this is the attitude that kills! .
I have had a two hour road training session with rider skills, for the cost of,
a. a night out with a couple of drinks and diner or
b. a frock i will never wear or
c. a haircut


Spending money on rider training is the best thing anyone could do. Noob or Not!
If i feel comfortable on the road now, it is because of the training.
And I will be back for more!! I like getting an education :yes: and then i go :ride: kitted with the best advise possible.

[Damantis]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/135385-Hamilton-Up-Skill-30-19-03-2011-amp-20-03-2011

It was a full day and cost only $30. great way to get some of your ACC levy back ( They even fed us! ) Plenty of valuable instruction too.

[Latte]

:brick::argh:

this is the attitude that kills! .
I have had a two hour road training session with rider skills, for the cost of,
a. a night out with a couple of drinks and diner or
b. a frock i will never wear or
c. a haircut


Spending money on rider training is the best thing anyone could do. Noob or Not!
If i feel comfortable on the road now, it is because of the training.
And I will be back for more!! I like getting an education :yes: and then i go :ride: kitted with the best advise possible.

YEah but wimmin waste money. Any more than $15 for a haircut is a waste. And you can get an extra week out of your socks and undies by turning them inside out .... dang nabbit.

[blue rider]

YEah but wimmin waste money. Any more than $15 for a haircut is a waste. And you can get an extra week out of your socks and undies by turning them inside out .... dang nabbit.

ahh but you approve of the drinks and food then?
and don't all kiwi men shave.....you still pay for the barber?:shutup::innocent:

[GrayWolf]

The best thing we ever did was the great Steinlager Experiment. A gymkhana event ridden on old trail, trials and bucket bikes to see how your fine motor skills and cognitive powers decrease rapidly under even the smallest amount of alcoholic influence. One beer screws up your ability to ride over a see-saw made from a barrel and a plank. One.

There's a whole bunch of cultural issues around the training thing, not least of which is that the process of getting a license is seen as "The End". Once you have it you're up for anything. For those about to be confined to cars it's not such a big deal because hitting your letterbox at 20 km/hr just dents stuff. Hurts on a bike. Probably costs more too. People have mentioned the ego thing too. I'm starting to think that having ACC as a safety net has been a bad thing.

I agree with the Ego (I passed my test, I KNOW what I am doing). I did an advanced test many years ago in the UK. The Instructor was a Police Motorcyclist and a rider off duty. Yeh we were all late teen/early 20 something's and as much as we were there to learn, we were there to 'not learn'.. just to improve how fast we could go, as I guess most youngsters are. We were in a 'classroom' and there was an 'industrial belt sander' on the table... Yeh so what we think. In walks this guy, "good evening" switches on the sander, open a carrier bag and lifts out a piece of pork,,,,, Yup, pushes it hard for about 3 seconds, onto the sander.... "this is YOU if you are NOT wearing leathers, NO ONE will be allowed to attend this course wearing unfit apparell". I can tell you this, you'll be amazed how much meat is removed in 3 seconds. He also in those few seconds changed the whole attitude of the class.
Just like your 'lager experiment' it sometimes needs very 'graphic' proof to gain real attention.

[Mom]

Just like your 'lager experiment' it sometimes needs very 'graphic' proof to gain real attention.

For some.

I trained as nurse back in the days where we wore stockings (we got paid an allowance to buy them) and capes and cardboard hats :yes:

I smoked, as did most of the nurses that trained with me, and most of the doctors we worked with :yes:

I do remember the Cancer society coming in for a lecture, complete with big jars of black slimey things they told us were lungs. They also used kitchen sponges and some tar like juice to illustrate the dangers of smoking. This was 1977ish. I can not count the number of times I was dragged out of bed ( I lived in) by the fire alarms becaue a doctor had set the couch on fire, falling asleep with a smoke in hand.
I finally manged to stop smoking 18 months ago.

I did the graphic pics, the warnings, the you name its, I still smoked.

Seeing ankle bones exposed after coming into contact with tarmac will definately sharpen your desire to wear good gear :yes:

[Geeen]

Would you guys stop talking up the value of these courses.
I will have to get off my arse and do the Cruiser course when it hits Puke in Sept now.


Meanies the lot of you... that money could go on tassels for my Harley you know!!


It's Ok it's not a REAL Harley what with being only a Sporty and an 883 at that.

See, You SHOULD go ride that 1200 at Wellington Motorcycles :laugh::laugh:

[z500nz]

A good thread, Mom

As a riding instructor, I have been conscious that track days do have their value in certain areas, but onroad skills are what riders need to improve. I have developed a rider course for advanced rider training, covering theory and on-road practical which is based on the police rider training system. Just getting the handbooks finished/ printed and then I'll be able to start promoting.

I'm also currently negotiating for ACC funding for motorcycle training events through our local road safety coordinator since they seem to have access to the purse strings, and motorcycle training is higher up the list of road safety priorities (in the South/Mid Canterbury region anyway).

You might like to try that avenue for funding too, as they could have funds available to run a course local to you?

[Gremlin]

A bit of a dredge, but I may as well chip in.

When I started learning 6 and a half odd years ago, I did the RRRS on my restricted, and the defensive driving course. I did the DDC mostly to reduce the license time, but also to see what else I could learn. Naturally riding skills were non-existent, but there were some good points about the thinking of riding, being aware etc.

RRRS was good, and all about riding skills, except I perhaps did it a bit too late, having sorted most of what they were teaching and I'd covered about 10k. I think it would be a brilliant follow up to the BHS, once you've covered a few thousand km, and when you have sorted the real basics.

I look back in shock at how little I knew after the BHS, and I was let out on the road unsupervised. There was certainly an element of luck, or my years on bicycles helped out...

I now find myself seeking out training again, to master slow speed ability and handling, and check I've not slipped into some really bad habits. Why? I simply believe in doing the best you can at what you're doing. It's certainly going to cost a bit. Some might say I'm fine... I pass on tips to learners (hopefully they're good ones) and clock up about 45k a year in all conditions. What if I can be better? I envy the training and skill the bike cops have/get.

Why doesn't everyone? Well, how many car drivers seek extra training? Humans are humans, drivers or riders, regardless. The difference is riders are exposed to more risk, but it's still a human thinking and making decisions. Perhaps some are unaware they are that bad (I see plenty that shouldn't be on the roads everyday), or, because they have a license, they must be ok?

One option here would be for police to hand out a notice to attend a certain course (partially funded, partial cost) instead of a ticket - in some situations. If you attend, no ticket. Motivation here is avoiding the ticket, and the ticket would have cost more than the training. Hopefully issues are shown and training fixes them, but you could argue that if you're forced there, then would you be receptive to tips. Perhaps you have to "pass" the course rather than attend.

Some will want to do courses, others will think they're fine. I remember having talks at school from people who'd been in accidents etc, but who learnt? Someone would have an accident, then want to try to educate others to prevent them doing it... yet never realised it never worked for them. :blink:

Post is long enough... I'll speak to Tricia at some point, for some training, once the bike is back etc.

[Mom]

Post is long enough... I'll speak to Tricia at some point, for some training, once the bike is back etc.

You wont regret it I promise. I will be heading back out for somemore once ia am back on my bike again :pinch:

Walking is more dangerous than motorcycles :yes:

[Blackbird]

I now find myself seeking out training again, to master slow speed ability and handling, and check I've not slipped into some really bad habits. Why? I simply believe in doing the best you can at what you're doing. It's certainly going to cost a bit. Some might say I'm fine... I pass on tips to learners (hopefully they're good ones) and clock up about 45k a year in all conditions. What if I can be better? I envy the training and skill the bike cops have/get.

You might also want to consider a very low cost option but with the most incredible outcome - joining the Institute of Advanced Motorists. It most certainly isn't "old farts on BMW's" and uses the same training standards as the Police Class 1 riders in the UK. When I first joined, it was hard on the ego and I wondered whether to continue but forever glad that I did. I can't begin to tell you how much I've learned. On my blog, there are a heap of posts (just use the search function - IAM or Institute of Advanced Motorists ) but here's the link to the first assessment ride to give you an idea of the first stage: http://geoffjames.blogspot.com/2011/04/advanced-riding-masterclass.html. The link to the motorcycle section of the IAM website is here: http://www.nz-iam.org.nz/iammotorcycle.asp with the Contact link at the top of the page.

Cheers,

Geoff

[Gremlin]

Thanks Geoff... sounds perfect and I'll definitely pursue that as well... :yes:

[Spazman727]

I'm relatively new to riding compared to most of you, only about 2 and a half years. I have just become a postie in Melbourne. As part of it I have to do a Honda advanced rider training course. I think it is an awesome opportunity to get some extra training that I would have probably done after I got my full licence in New Zealand. I know my skills probably aren't really up to it, but even if you do, what's the harm in having a professional tell you that you are a good rider?
Plus it gives me a chance to thrash someone else's bike for 2 days for free :yes:

[caspernz]

Having taken part in Prorider days on 8th and 9th October at Manfeild, I would counter the argument that racetrack based training has no relevance for road riders. I'm not interested in becoming a faster rider, just a safer rider with more finely tuned skills. Is there a safer environment to learn new skills or work on existing ones? I mean, no other traffic to contend with, good sightlines, no surprises...

Heck, I've been riding for years and been meaning to partake in a set of courses. I learnt a few things, but then going in with an open mind seems to help....

[Blackbird]

Is there a safer environment to learn new skills or work on existing ones? I mean, no other traffic to contend with, good sightlines, no surprises...

Heck, I've been riding for years and been meaning to partake in a set of courses. I learnt a few things, but then going in with an open mind seems to help....

Any practice is good, no matter where it takes place. However, good roasdcraft training on the road with traffic, poor sightlines and lots of surprises is where you develop good situational awareness.

Got to agree with you about an open mind. :Punk: I've been riding for over 40 years and the last 6 months training with the IAM to police standards has been a revelation. I now understand the difference between an experienced rider and an advanced rider !

[Blackbird]

Is there a safer environment to learn new skills or work on existing ones? I mean, no other traffic to contend with, good sightlines, no surprises...

Heck, I've been riding for years and been meaning to partake in a set of courses. I learnt a few things, but then going in with an open mind seems to help....

Any practice is good, no matter where it takes place. However, good roadcraft training on the road with traffic, poor sightlines and lots of surprises is where you develop good situational awareness.

Got to agree with you about an open mind. :Punk: I've been riding for over 40 years and the last 6 months training with the IAM to police standards has been a revelation. I now understand the difference between an experienced rider and an advanced rider !

[z500nz]

Having taken part in Prorider days on 8th and 9th October at Manfeild, I would counter the argument that racetrack based training has no relevance for road riders. I'm not interested in becoming a faster rider, just a safer rider with more finely tuned skills. Is there a safer environment to learn new skills or work on existing ones? I mean, no other traffic to contend with, good sightlines, no surprises...

Heck, I've been riding for years and been meaning to partake in a set of courses. I learnt a few things, but then going in with an open mind seems to help....

I didn't say track days have no relevance. I don't dispute handling skills can be learnt on the track, and have taken some courses myself. They just can't teach the critical skills when someone does something unexpected ahead of you. Like the IAM course, I am helping riders to plan further ahead, looking and anticipating potential hazards rather than wait for them to happen and then react.

I now have ACC funding to reduce the cost for novice, intermediate and advanced rider courses in the Mid and South Canterbury regions. No subsidy on the CBHS course.