Damper rod forks, emulators, intminators and progressive springs

[Robert Taylor]

This is a first instalment and by no means complete as its a time consuming subject. We in the 21st century still have very many bikes with damper rod forks, technology from around the middle part of last century, terrible then and terrible now.
Damper rods are by definition ''fixed orifice / velocity squared damping'' Forcing oil through a fixed size hole means that the damping will only be roughly correct at one particular fork velocity. But forks dont operate at one particular velocity!
In real terms the ''character'' of a damper rod fork is that initially they will be very sloppy / uncontrolled and have a propensity for ''blowing through their stroke'' under brakes. In this respect a number of bikes spring to mind as being dangerous. But also when you ride over something abrupt such as a badly installed manhole cover ( councils are very poor at rejecting poor quality work from contractors ), motorway expansion joints or a sudden seal lip change it then feels like youre on top of a jackhammer! Many riders will either subconciously or even conciously avoid such bumps, so the bumps are to a large degree having first say over your line choices. It shouldnt be that way!!!!
That we still have ''modern'' bikes with abysmally bad forks is to the blame of many. Consumers are to blame for demanding that bikes are as cheap as possible and manufacturers are also to blame in concentrating on areas of the bike i.e engines etc that deliver a performance and marketing improvement. But there is a more real world improvement in actually getting bikes to ride the bumps better but also with much better chassis control. Given we are seeing more and more bikes from mainland Asia the next few years or even decades dont bode well for quality or chassis performance from such machines. Hopefully I will be incorrect but the current offerings really leave me cold.
A 70s ''solution'' for better control of damper rod forks is to instal progressively wound springs, its actually not the correct way of skinning the cat and sorry, it should have remained in the 70s!!!!!!! Although it varies a little its fair to say that only 50% of the issue is in fact springing, the other 50% is very poor hydraulic control

More to follow.....

[SWERVE]

Dont tease Robert...... more..more:yes:

[SPman]

Yes please - I've got an XJR that needs it's front end done next.......

[AllanB]

Yes please - I've got an XJR that needs it's front end done next.......

I've recently popped a set of Roberts fork springs in my Hornet 900. I wish I'd done it 3 years ago when I purchased the bike. Huge returns for small $.
:woohoo:

[hayd3n]

the trouble i have is getting something within my budget

[riffer]

Keen to hear more.

What in the heck is an intminator?

[Woodman]

Will be interested to see what RT's opinion of intiminators is.

All i know is that I put some in my bike and it made an instant improvement. Very planted front end, dealt with corrugations under brakes, stopped the front from slipping out etc. This is on gravel/offroad .

[Brian d marge]

Sorry , have to disagree my Enfield has fixed velocity front suspension , Solid as a rock , never seen them move , Coupled with a well made secondary spring , "the Avon Speedmaster " ... The ride is as firm and as dependable a teenagers backside

On a lighter note, Robert , you deal with fluids have a look at openFoam CFD bit of a learning curve ( not hard but different ) but you can model fluid flow through Damper rods , its free and its growing on me day by day !

and with rapid prototyping as cheap as it is , beats machining the thing ....( test only)

ok carry on as you were

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

Aside from abysmal compression damping control that may as well have come out of the stone age the major achilles heel of damper rod forks is ''uncontrolled bleed''
If you remove the spring, drain the oil and then shine a torch down the bore of the inner fork tube you will find more often than not that the damper rod is not concentric with the centreline of the fork tube! Most often it will be noticeably cocked to one side. That means that its ''top hat'' piston ring will not be sealing concentrically and will wear unevenly. This is but one cause of uncontrolled bleed. Reasons for this include;
1) The floor of the lower fork casting that it bolts onto is not perpendicular to the centreline of the fork ( not easy and expensive to correct )
2) The lower seating surface of the damper rod itself is also not square ( machinable ) and is so tenuously narrow that there is a very narrow surface area of seating contact. Any slight misalignment here magnifies by the time you are at the top hat end of the damper rod. Also that small surface contact area of the rod can chew into the relatively soft lower fork casting and exacerbate the misalignment issue. Especially if the guy doing up the lock bolt has the finesse of a rhinocerous.
3) The tolerancing of the female thread form in the damper rod and the lockbolt itself can be ''sloppy''. And our mainland Asian friends can be very laxadaisical in that respect
4) DTI a damper rod on a pair of v blocks and you will often find they are out of round and also not straight! The nastiest ones are pressed steel and that really is a bridge too far in the continual degradation of standards that we see with many products. But as I have said previously consumers are just as guilty in demanding lower prices for products. For those of us that were born at a time when quality was still a paramount consideration in manufacture of everyday goods its sad to see where the world is at now!

Misalignment and untruth of that damper rod sets off a whole load of other issues. The top hat seating surface of the damper rod is then not perpendicular to the centreline of the fork tube and therefore by implication also not perpendicular to the spring that seats on it, otherwise centralised by the internal bore of the fork tube. Or indeed a Race Tech Emulator or Intiminator that seats directly upon it. With respect to the spring it creates an unwanted side thrust that in turn magnifies spring rubbing and friction against the inner walls of the fork tube. The fork action is compromised and the internal rubbing shaves small chards of metal off the inner fork walls, contaminating the oil and embedding particles in the teflon coated fork glide bushings. Not nice. Its also fair to point out that we often see fork springs with end conditions that are also not square. All springs are not equal and a number of the cheaper aftermarket spring kits are afflicted with nasty cost reducing issues.

A Race Tech Emulator or Intiminator will also not seat properly and therefore not seal properly against the top of an unsquare damper rod. More uncontrolled bleed. Approximately 7% of the worlds economy is piracy or to put it another way blatantly and unethically copying another companies product and therefore short circuiting the not inconsiderable development costs incurred by the original company. One example is the nasty Asian made copy of the Race Tech emulators on the market. These have a tenuously thin hard surface coating that wears in short order through to the soft alloy underbelly. Given that a lot of these will be self instal and that many installers will not recognise what I have detailed above, accelerated wear of the hard coating due to inconsistent seating is a certainty. We have evidenced this issue once again among other blatant shortcomings, this past week. But more on Emulators, how they work, variations on the theme and the shortcomings they are all afflicted with in the next post.

In the lower reach of the inner fork tube is a one way check plate that ensures flow is correctly directed and ''sealed off'' in and around the damper rod as it cycles between compression and rebound cycles. The inner diameter of this check washer ( or sleeve ) is supposed to seal as effectively as possible aginst the od of the damper rod tube. But we evidence all the time that the disparity in diameter between check plate id and damper rod od can be HUGE. Exacerbating that are the aforementioned tolerance issue with the rods themselves. This is another huge area of uncontrolled bleed.

This whole uncontrolled bleed issue affects compression damping but sometimes in an ''unimproved'' fork thats just as well( ! ) because the fixed orifice damping holes drilled into the damper rods are so tiny they will not pass enough oil at high deflection velocities. The fork hydraulically locks and then the poor tyre is overstressed (and wear accelerated ), as is the rider! But mostly it will reflect in very very poor rebound damping control.

The time honoured ''fix'' / BAND AID is to fill with a heavier oil to get some vestige of rebound control. But the problem is that the thicker the viscosity of the oil the more sensitive it is to a change in ambient temperature. Except in racing situations with sophisticated cartridges and aggressive settings fork oil doesnt run at that much above ambient temperature. Forks are always in the cooling airstream and the mass of metal is a heat dispersant. So, the forks may have a ''correct'' rebound speed at 12 degrees celsius, but in the morning when its frosty their rebound return speed is very lethargic, thats crash material.

So given that mentality the forks should be engineered with precise alignment and tolerances to run as thin an oil as possible. And to not put too fine a point on it with damper rod forks oil viscosity first, foremost and ONLY should be selected to attain the correct rebound speed. It should absolutely NOT be used to try and tune compression feel / speed.

Pro Twins racing SV650s are a good example and we have over the years modified the lions share of these by fitting Ohlins linear wind springs and Race Tech emulators ( that are also modified for race spec, not just a straight drop in )
If we use the standard damper rods and correct the alignment issue as much as possible we have to fill with Ohlins 98 centistoke oil ( broadly similiar to the shonky and highly inaccurate SAE rating of suspension fluids, 20-25 weight. But thats another story ) If we fit Traxxion Dynamics damper rods ( that are actually straight and tighter toleranced ) we can fill with Ohlins 40 centistoke oil, broadly similiar to 10 weight. This spec Johny Small used as did Geoff Booth one year preceding to win their repective Pro Twins NZ no 1 plates

A set of forks that we have re-engineered and made our own CKT emulators for ( and these are totally different to anything else on the market ) we are able to run with Ohlins 19 centistoke oil, broadly similiar to 5 weight. These forks are highly insensitive to ambient temperature shift and while there is more work to be done they have much better control and bump compliance than anything else we have tested.

Selecting fork oils is also a little different to selecting shock oils. Aside from viscosity and anti foaming etc the major preoccupation is selecting an oil that has consistent flow properties at closer to ambient temperature, as eluded to above. Rear shock absorbers will run at 40 to 80 degrees celsius according to how aggressive the setting is and proximity to hot engines, exhaust headers and mufflers. In one Formula car installation we evidenced 120 degrees celsius, but remember that pressurisation raises the boiling point. But forks need to be responsive at ambient and they are running in a cooling airstream! The ambient may be 5 degrees celsius in a winter race meeting, fork oil temperature the same or a couple of degrees higher and rear shock temperature 50 degrees celsius...

In an unashamed plug for the Ohlins fork ( and shock ) oils we distribute Ohlins are very attentive to the need for excellent cold flow properties in fork oils, having for many years built snowmobile suspension. And we do race rather a lot in cold winter temperature here compared to first world Northern European and American countries where it pretty much shuts down until the seasonal shift back to warmer temperatures. Ohlins oil is the most expensive suspension oil on the NZ market but you get what you pay for!

Next post we will get into the Emulators themselves and issues

[Robert Taylor]

the trouble i have is getting something within my budget

If you end up spending a little more at the outset youll end up subsequently spending a lot less. We have quite a tally now of cheaper shocks and rip off copies of emulators etc that we have removed because they didnt cut the mustard.

[Robert Taylor]

Keen to hear more.

What in the heck is an intminator?

To follow. Like an Emulator they are another form of ''band aid''

[tri boy]

"laxadaisical"
Show off:shutup:
(think it is lackadaisical.Hitcher, help................)

America-First world country?
Not for much longer.

Besides those two little points, loving the lesson:sunny:

[Woodman]

Very good, keep it coming.

[riffer]

To follow. Like an Emulator they are another form of ''band aid''

I think I get it. Its an emulator works on compression, intiminator works on rebound kind of thing?

[hayd3n]

If you end up spending a little more at the outset youll end up subsequently spending a lot less. We have quite a tally now of cheaper shocks and rip off copies of emulators etc that we have removed because they didnt cut the mustard.
well what ever i put in will better then the shit factory ones

[Robert Taylor]

well what ever i put in will better then the shit factory ones

There are ways and means to get a good and quality result at the most economical cost. Im away now for a couple of days and will try to post again on Monday night.

[warewolf]

I think I get it. Its an emulator works on compression, intiminator works on rebound kind of thing?Has an inertia valve that closes when the bike tries to dive but opens when the wheel tries to rise... something like that. Pretty good (impressive) improvement for a damper rod fork, but still well behind the performance of a cartridge fork. In particular it can't handle a complex series of bumps.

Edit: given the genesis of this thread, I should note that I didn't test them vis-à-vis RaceTech emulators.

[F5 Dave]

"laxadaisical"
Show off:shutup:
(think it is lackadaisical.Hitcher, help................)

. .
Ha, yes I was thinking; there, I've learnt something, a new word at the least. Hmm, not in my 1968 Oxford Concise. Hello google. Nope, not a'mercan spelling. Seems to be derived from 'Lacks' rather than 'Lax' which seems a bit counter intuitive.

But anyway, a good read.

[F5 Dave]

. . . For those of us that were born at a time when quality was still a paramount consideration in manufacture of everyday goods its sad to see where the world is at now!
. . .
Exsqueezeme? Weren't you born in the UK? My understanding of the British automotive industry, (to name just one) was that starved of all capital to upgrade, the push was to continue manufacture of old crude designs with known faults on antiquated machinery that was a few decades past its best by date & so be it. While this policy was obviously spurned from a rampant need to repay considerable post war dept it ultimately set the path to kill manufacturing in the UK.

Sorry not trying to take this off path, but we used to deal with Brit made stuff & have always been under-whelmed with the attitude to quality.

So an on point question, much as one tries to retain a square fitment for the spring, surely it deflects one way or other as it compresses. How measurable would this pressure of the deflection get with a cocked seat? I mean if I was stupid enough to put a old thin forkspring on my press & press it (with totally flat surfaces) without a guide, it would surely bend out to the side in short & spectacular order.

[White trash]

I mean if I was stupid enough to put a old thin forkspring on my press & press it (with totally flat surfaces) without a guide, it would surely bend out to the side in short & spectacular order.

Video it and post the hilarity that ensues please Dave.

[F5 Dave]

How would you like to play Lenny for this experiment? (Simpson's reference). You may need to remove your glasses.:blink: I'll rig a remote trigger for the press, so I'll be like the dentist who disappears around the corner when taking your x-rays.

[Robert Taylor]

Exsqueezeme? Weren't you born in the UK? My understanding of the British automotive industry, (to name just one) was that starved of all capital to upgrade, the push was to continue manufacture of old crude designs with known faults on antiquated machinery that was a few decades past its best by date & so be it. While this policy was obviously spurned from a rampant need to repay considerable post war dept it ultimately set the path to kill manufacturing in the UK.

Sorry not trying to take this off path, but we used to deal with Brit made stuff & have always been under-whelmed with the attitude to quality.

So an on point question, much as one tries to retain a square fitment for the spring, surely it deflects one way or other as it compresses. How measurable would this pressure of the deflection get with a cocked seat? I mean if I was stupid enough to put a old thin forkspring on my press & press it (with totally flat surfaces) without a guide, it would surely bend out to the side in short & spectacular order.

No, my English grandfather was a Royal Army sniper in WW1 and survived the Somme etc. My mother was concieved in England but was born in Eltham, Taranaki. My father was in the RNZAF during WW2 but was seconded to the RAF as a radar engineering officer, based in the UK when those German chappies were being a touch belligerent. I lived in the UK for five years during dear old Maggie Thatchers reign and am an unashamed anglophile and royalist.
In spite of my Rule Brittania sympathies its a bit of a giggle re your references to such ''success stories'' as the company that produced such delights as the Morris 1100 with ''hydrospastic suspension'' and Austin landcrabs etc!!!

With fork springs with end conditions / unsquare ends etc anything that automatically introduces even more sidethrust has just got to be bad. The more you work with a lot of this stuff the more you realise just how shonky and laxadaisical ( ! ) a lot of it is!

Im now taking a few deep breaths before my next assault on the subject of emulators and other variations, but being Tueday evening an English period drama on Prime at 2030 hours beckons first and foremost!

[riffer]

Jeez Robert. Talk about being a cocktease!

[riffer]

Having said that, I am also sitting in the lounge on the laptop in front of same said programme.

[Robert Taylor]

Having said that, I am also sitting in the lounge on the laptop in front of same said programme.

You cant beat the complexities in those programmes and the English humour. What I dont get though is how with all of those English period dramas etc how they cram all of their filming into the only 2 fine days they get per annum?

[F5 Dave]

For sure it just seems wrong to have the mating edges on the piss & I suppose this off angle to the fork spring will not have a nice effect on the Damper rods as it pushes them off skew. To some extent this must happen anyway & the sturdiness of the damper rod will alter the sealing I guess.

[Robert Taylor]

For sure it just seems wrong to have the mating edges on the piss & I suppose this off angle to the fork spring will not have a nice effect on the Damper rods as it pushes them off skew. To some extent this must happen anyway & the sturdiness of the damper rod will alter the sealing I guess.

Yes, fair comment. The more you look at this stuff the more its a real can of worms and full of some very laxadaisical engineering.

[Robert Taylor]

On compression stroke ( delection over bumps, brake dive ) the flow and damping control is effected by some holes drilled near the base of the damper rods . Im not going to get into the complexities of flow between lower chambers as it would require a series of drawings and more time than I have got. Suffice to say oil is forced through those damping holes and then flows upwards through the middle of the rod. The problem is that at low fork shaft velocity ( smooth face ''bumps'' and initial brake dive velocities ) those holes are too big causing the forks to feel sloppy and uncontrolled. They also blow through their stroke under brakes. If anyone has ridden any of the later Chinese made GN250s they will understand exactly what I mean, although in fairness a lot of the issue is also spring rate, or lack thereof. As will be the case with many lower cost commuter bikes.
But when the bike is ridden over abrupt edge bumps such as a ''proud'' railway line or a pothole etc the same holes are then effectively too small, they ''choke off'' in flow rate and the fork semi hydraulic locks. This overstresses the tyre and the rider is none too happy about it as well.
As mentioned when I started this thread the time honoured ''fix'' is to fit progressive springs but in reality its a very very poor bandaid. Weak springing in most damper rod forks accounts for at least 40% of the lack of control issue and it is a first step in many forks to address that problem by fitting good quality linear wind springs of a rate appropriate for the bike, rider and application. Given that there is a secondary air spring in the forks ( the trapped air volume above the set oil level ) the last third of stroke ''progressivity'' can be very precisely tuned by the oil level. Lets call that ''SECONDARY TRAPPED AIR SPRING COMPRESSION RATIO''. If you fit progressive springs you are stuck with the progression of them , it in most cases will likely be too aggressive. But simply by varying oil level you can make incrementally small or bigger than small changes to progessivity. If progressive springs are what they are falsely painted to be why dont they use them in such demanding environments as MotoGp and WSBK where controlling brake dive is a major preoccupation of suspension tuners? Answer....its because they use tuning of airgap and because at least 50 % of the challenge is to have very effective hydraulics ( damping )
So whats involved in fitting a RACE TECH emulator? First and ideally engineer out as much of the uncontrolled bleed and laxadaisical alignment / centralisation issues as as much as possible. Contrary to the marketing mentality of ''self instal'' it requires a lathe and measuring equipment but above all lots of experience and therefore a keen eye for correcting such issues invisible to a ''first timer''. The devil really is in the detail.Then oversize the existing lower damping rod holes so that their combined flow area just exceeds the flow area of the through bore of the damper rod, which then becomes the primary flow restriction. NOTE, contrary to Race Tech self instal instructions we resist as much as possible adding extra holes. If you carry on up the rod with extra holes it actually results in a significant amount of initial fork re-extension from full closed position where there is very little high speed rebound damping. Thats a critical issue in relatively short travel road / road race forks. Those who have access to flow path diagrams will understand what I mean. 2 years or so ago Paul Thede stayed with me and I discussed this issue with him and he concurred that our explanation was correct.
A Race Tech Emulator is then sat on top of the damper rod and is ''held'' in place by the fork spring and base preload imparted upon that spring. So it is effectively sandwiched, now assuming that the main fork spring and its preload were already ''correct'' the RACE TECH EMULATOR adds another 12-13mm of preload which then needs to be reduced accordingly.
The Emulator is selected primarily by an internet search that gives you the part number and primarily it pays credence to ease of self instal and all the horrible compromises. We at CKT have in many instances and where possible fitted a listing one size larger, the criteria being to fit as big a RACE TECH EMULATOR as possible that just has clearance inside the inner bore of the fork tube. This often involves some machining of the top hat of the damper rod but it always yields a better end result.
The RACE TECH EMULATOR houses a check valve for rebound return flow and contrary to some popular misconception it does not have any influence on rebound damping. As detailed previously trebound damping is ''sorted'' only by first eliminating as much uncontrolled bleed as possible and then by oil viscosity selection. The thinner the oil that you can get away with the better as it will be less sensitive to ambient temperature shift. That also goes for oil quality, cheap yields a cheap result.
At the top of the RACE TECH EMULATOR is a spring preloaded poppett valve. Drilled in that poppett valve is a bypass hole and that small hole provides ''low fork shaft velocity'' damping control. At initial low speed movements and under initial brake dive scenarios that small bypass hole effects a NIGHT AND DAY improvement in ride height and chassis pitch control, the hydraulics are actually earning their keep! Exacerbating that improvement even further it keeps the front end riding higher in its stroke by stopping it uncontrollably blowing through its stroke. That in turn means the main fork springs are not so precompressed all the time and that helps to deliver a ride that is both more controlled but more comfortable, all at the same time.
ABRUPT BUMPS.....in that same poppett piston that the bypass hole is drilled into is a large port hole that it seals off around its periphery. This poppett piston is preloaded by a spring. When the front wheel rides over an abrupt edged obstacle that tries to deflect the forks at high velocity the max flow rate off that bypass hole chokes off and then the poppett starts to lift exposing / modulating more and more flow area. Total flow area almost always exceeds the original hole sizes processed in the oem damper rod. So this combined with less initial precompression of the fork springs delivers a hugely improved level of compliance across such bumps.
Installation of RACE TECH EMULATORS and appropriate rate and preloaded linear wind springs turns the forks into ''speed sensitive damping''. Or much better chassis pitch control and ride quality.
This is still a band aid but then Intimiantors are also, arguably moreso. More in the next post....................

[hayd3n]

interesting hagon springs delivered to my door $232 made for my weight and ride style and it even comes with the required amount of oil :P
and thell stil be pretty shit but thell be a improvment for me :P

[Robert Taylor]

interesting hagon springs delivered to my door $232 made for my weight and ride style and it even comes with the required amount of oil :P
and thell stil be pretty shit but thell be a improvment for me :P

Yes, improvement is a term of relativity! And to quote Paul Thede ''the best youve ridden is the best you know''. For many I guess ''near enough is good enough'' but for many more its a whole world out there of what massive improvements can in fact be made. Concedingly yes it does cost money
I look at many ''cheap and cheerful'' scooters travelling along the road with their ridiculous 10 inch or so wheels and just shake my head at their terrible ride quality and capability of throwing their ride on his / her head over the patchwork quilt of seal reapairs and manhole installations by many councils

[hayd3n]

Yes, improvement is a term of relativity! And to quote Paul Thede ''the best you've ridden is the best you know''. For many I guess ''near enough is good enough'' but for many more its a whole world out there of what massive improvements can in fact be made. Concedingly yes it does cost money
I look at many ''cheap and cheerful'' scooters traveling along the road with their ridiculous 10 inch or so wheels and just shake my head at their terrible ride quality and capability of throwing their ride on his / her head over the patchwork quilt of seal repairs and manhole installations by many councils
very true and most bikes ive ridden are pretty crap in the suspension department :shit:
spending $1000 on my $3000 bike it still out of my picture :< but if i ever do you will be the first to know!!!!
:rockon:

[riffer]

Good stuff indeed Robert.

Tell me, to what extent are the limitations of today's suspension components the effect of beancounters trying to get the bike cost down to an acceptable level for the marketers, or due to the fear of litigation causing a more "generic" or "safe for the masses" system?

What I don't get is that the technology seems to be known to many, but the fork manufacturers are slow to introduce it, perhaps with the exception of the big piston stuff.

Why do YOU think the mainstream manufacturers are sticking with less than ideal technology?

[hayd3n]

or should i get somthing like this?
http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/ccp51/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F2930813&rnd=3101036&rrc=N&affl=&cip=203.160.126.76&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=K+Tech+Linear+Fork&cat=K-Tech+Fr+Suspension+All+Bikes&catstr=HOME:

[Pussy]

or should i get somthing like this?


Nah man... graft on a hydrolastic unit from an Austin 1100.....

[Robert Taylor]

Good stuff indeed Robert.

Tell me, to what extent are the limitations of today's suspension components the effect of beancounters trying to get the bike cost down to an acceptable level for the marketers, or due to the fear of litigation causing a more "generic" or "safe for the masses" system?

What I don't get is that the technology seems to be known to many, but the fork manufacturers are slow to introduce it, perhaps with the exception of the big piston stuff.

Why do YOU think the mainstream manufacturers are sticking with less than ideal technology?

The cost is a good deal of everything. That also includes BPF forks and thats a subject in itself as they fall way short of the mark of what they could have been, without any extra cost.

[Robert Taylor]

Nah man... graft on a hydrolastic unit from an Austin 1100.....

Incorrect John, ''hydrospastic'' with cadillac emulating rebound aftercycles. Also successfully applied in Austin and Morris landcrabs. There are a few things that I dont miss from the 70s.

[Robert Taylor]

or should i get somthing like this?
http://www.moto-racing.co.uk/ccp51/cgi-bin/cp-app.cgi?usr=51F2930813&rnd=3101036&rrc=N&affl=&cip=203.160.126.76&act=&aff=&pg=prod&ref=K+Tech+Linear+Fork&cat=K-Tech+Fr+Suspension+All+Bikes&catstr=HOME:

Yes but you can get them right here in NZ and enjoy local backup. For instance if the spring rate you choose turns out in practice to be not quite ideal for you we exchange at no further cost excepting courier recovery fees. Spring rate calculators over the net are a guideline only and cannot take into account myriad other factors including disposition of load and ''rider feel preference''.
Where there are listings our first port of call are Ohlins springs, a major reason being that the length is a match for the original preload spacers or they supply preload spacers. All the work is done, and they are a little cheaper as well.

[hayd3n]

Yes but you can get them right here in NZ and enjoy local backup. For instance if the spring rate you choose turns out in practice to be not quite ideal for you we exchange at no further cost excepting courier recovery fees. Spring rate calculators over the net are a guideline only and cannot take into account myriad other factors including disposition of load and ''rider feel preference''.
Where there are listings our first port of call are Ohlins springs, a major reason being that the length is a match for the original preload spacers or they supply preload spacers. All the work is done, and they are a little cheaper as well.

so for sub 250 i can get ohlins?

[AllanB]

A interesting note re the RaceTech link above and the comment re Hagon. You may have been surprised at what could have been supplied for similar coin to your Hagons. I was.

As a recent customer of Roberts fork springs I join the CKT congregation as a convert of his local experience. I'd picked out the spring rate based on the on-line calculator and he recommended going down one (lighter). Plus he could supply Ohlins units cheaper (hey - everyone loves gold :yes:).

Turns out the spring rate is perfect and if I'd gone by the on-line calculator in the above link my front end ride would be less compliant.


I did discover one negative to improving the front end - the short comings of the rear are now extremely apparent :facepalm: Nothing a email could not fit!

[Robert Taylor]

so for sub 250 i can get ohlins?

Yes, 10 cents change!

[hayd3n]

Yes, 10 cents change!

ill start saving !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Motig]

So a progressive spring would not be an improvement on the stock spring for an old bandit? I ask this as anything more expensive couldn't be justified with my budget/riding style. (and especially to the boss)

[F5 Dave]

The cost is a good deal of everything. That also includes BPF forks and thats a subject in itself as they fall way short of the mark of what they could have been, without any extra cost.
Not wanting to get off topic, but having only seen them in pics (an article you did for BRM I think) I was surprised that the ports were so small on such a big piston. I mean I can see on a small piston you need complex machining to increase the size, but on those big mothers there appeared room to at least improve the issue with a bigger drill bit.

But why? Does Paul pay them a retainer to cripple themselves so he still has a market?
Its a conspiracy? :shit:

[bogan]

Interesting stuff!

If I've understood it correctly (reading it involved a lot of googling part names so I'm not sure on this point) the first/most important thing to sort is the spring rates? Are sag checks a decent indicator of how suitable the current spring rates are?

And is rear suspension a different story with regards to the progressive spring issue, as most linkages cause both progressive spring and damping rates right?

edit: also, any more news/info on semi/active suspension systems?

[vifferman]

As a recent customer of Roberts fork springs I join the CKT congregation as a convert of his local experience. I'd picked out the spring rate based on the on-line calculator and he recommended going down one (lighter). Plus he could supply Ohlins units cheaper (hey - everyone loves gold :yes:).

Turns out the spring rate is perfect and if I'd gone by the on-line calculator in the above link my front end ride would be less compliant.
I too bought springs (Sonic) online, and despite being sceptical of their spring rate calculator and going one rate lighter, I still ended up with a front end that was OK over 100 km/h or under 70, had very precise steering, but on backroads at 70-90 was VERY tiring to ride, even after CKT's ministrations to the other parts (Racetech bits, and expensive baby-lesbian-afghani-fur-seal-penguin-whale oil). I sent them back to CKT and Robert swapped the Sonics for some Ohlins of a lower rate, tweaked the damping to suit, and le voila! (A small, mispelled musical instrument).

[Robert Taylor]

A interesting note re the RaceTech link above and the comment re Hagon. You may have been surprised at what could have been supplied for similar coin to your Hagons. I was.

As a recent customer of Roberts fork springs I join the CKT congregation as a convert of his local experience. I'd picked out the spring rate based on the on-line calculator and he recommended going down one (lighter). Plus he could supply Ohlins units cheaper (hey - everyone loves gold :yes:).

Turns out the spring rate is perfect and if I'd gone by the on-line calculator in the above link my front end ride would be less compliant.


I did discover one negative to improving the front end - the short comings of the rear are now extremely apparent :facepalm: Nothing a email could not fit!

The sexy scandinavian suspender left Stockholm yesterday!

[White trash]

So a progressive spring would not be an improvement on the stock spring for an old bandit? I ask this as anything more expensive couldn't be justified with my budget/riding style. (and especially to the boss)

Can you not read man? I promise you, altering the oil level (''SECONDARY TRAPPED AIR SPRING COMPRESSION RATIO'')will be far cheaper than buying a set of progressive springs.

[Robert Taylor]

So a progressive spring would not be an improvement on the stock spring for an old bandit? I ask this as anything more expensive couldn't be justified with my budget/riding style. (and especially to the boss)

Well yes it likely would be an improvement but in all such scenarios linear wind springs in a rate appropriate for you work a lot better, especially at absorbing bumps. Plus the progressivity can be easily fine tuned by adjusting the oil level. Many progressive springs can be too aggressive in end rate and that can require a significant lowering of oil level to reduce last third of stroke ''secondary air spring compression ratio''. A much lower oil level means that upper bushing wear will be accelerated as lubrication is by dispersal and vapour only, the oil has further to travel.
When you find that the start rate of that progressive spring is initially too light ( causing the forks to initially feel sloppy and blow through their stroke ) but then ramps up too aggressively later in the stroke ( causing terrible compliance over abrupt bumps ) then you will be stuck with them but not struck them.
As I brutally said at the start of this thread they are a 70s solution and thats 40 odd years or nearly half a century ago! And at least 50% of the problem is very poor hydraulic control. Oversimplistically springs are primarily about ''position'', damping is about controlling rate of change of position.

[Robert Taylor]

Not wanting to get off topic, but having only seen them in pics (an article you did for BRM I think) I was surprised that the ports were so small on such a big piston. I mean I can see on a small piston you need complex machining to increase the size, but on those big mothers there appeared room to at least improve the issue with a bigger drill bit.

But why? Does Paul pay them a retainer to cripple themselves so he still has a market?
Its a conspiracy? :shit:

God only knows. Maybe in part its about slowing down the damping ( or rate of change of position ) so that when very well fed people hop on such bikes they dont have a tendency to blow through their stroke and bottom out. And then approaching the manufacturer demanding warranty. This is also another reason that on conventional ( and I think better ) cartridges have longish hydraulic bottoming out cones

[Robert Taylor]

Interesting stuff!

If I've understood it correctly (reading it involved a lot of googling part names so I'm not sure on this point) the first/most important thing to sort is the spring rates? Are sag checks a decent indicator of how suitable the current spring rates are?

And is rear suspension a different story with regards to the progressive spring issue, as most linkages cause both progressive spring and damping rates right?

edit: also, any more news/info on semi/active suspension systems?

Thanks. Yes spring rates first and foremost but sometimes the arrangement of the damping can allow a slight change of spring rate, also in the racing world the choice of tyre construction can have a major affect on spring rate choice, preload and damping.
Sag checks and the ratio between rider sag and resultant free sag is an indicator but the numbers are not gospel. The preload required on the spring is also an indicator. You know what, when we go testing with top riders we have a big box of springs and we change and test, change and test. We are looking for the best lap times and also monitor tye temperature. We are also of course looking for the slowest possible tyre degradation and some circuits are a real challenge, anyone that says different is full of BS. We may end up with numbers that look ''nuts'' but if it works it works.
Throw in rear shock internal top out springs in various rates and lengths and the neccessity to balance the selection of those against main spring selection and preload. Sometimes we have too many parts in the box!
We generally only use progressive spings in the rear ends of twin shock bikes because there is very little rising rate effect. Even then the springs we use ( Ohlins ) have their progression so late its at about the last 10 or 20% of travel, affected by such variables as available suspension stroke.
Rear rising rate links are there only to accelerate the shock shaft velocity deeper into its stroke. The faster you move that shaft the more it damps. Again its there very much for keeping the bike ''off the bottom'' when ridden by a very well fed person with his wife and worldly goods. ''All things to all men" Crudely so.

[bogan]

Thanks. Yes spring rates first and foremost but sometimes the arrangement of the damping can allow a slight change of spring rate, also in the racing world the choice of tyre construction can have a major affect on spring rate choice, preload and damping.
Sag checks and the ratio between rider sag and resultant free sag is an indicator but the numbers are not gospel. The preload required on the spring is also an indicator.

Probably getting about time for me to recheck my sag again, from memory the recommendation was 25-30mm with rider, and about 5mm without for both front and rear was judged good for the average rider on the road, sound about right?


Rear rising rate links are there only to accelerate the shock shaft velocity deeper into its stroke. The faster you move that shaft the more it damps. Again its there very much for keeping the bike ''off the bottom'' when ridden by a very well fed person with his wife and worldly goods. ''All things to all men" Crudely so.

Hmmm, so if one were to retrofit a rising rate linkage to his bike (non linked standard) this would be a silly thing to do? I always thought rising rate allowed it to be plusher for small bumps, but keep it from bottoming and kicking like a mule on the bigger ones.

[Robert Taylor]

Probably getting about time for me to recheck my sag again, from memory the recommendation was 25-30mm with rider, and about 5mm without for both front and rear was judged good for the average rider on the road, sound about right?



Hmmm, so if one were to retrofit a rising rate linkage to his bike (non linked standard) this would be a silly thing to do? I always thought rising rate allowed it to be plusher for small bumps, but keep it from bottoming and kicking like a mule on the bigger ones.

E-mail to me at robert@crownkiwi.co.nz and Ill forward you a setup manual that explains all of the sag settings for various applications

A certain amount of rising rate is a positive and can be your friend on bumpy roads with ''g out'' hollows / upramps. So yes plush initially but not so free it blows through its stroke and ''hits'' the rising rate curve. But enough rising rate to ''catch'' sudden and potentially full stroke movements initiated by g out.
Personally I think also that ''digressive damping curves'' have their limitations and often we valve with more ''slope'' to ''keep away'' from the link.

[SWERVE]

Keep it coming Robert........fascinating stuff.:yes:

[Robert Taylor]

In Pro Twins racing we have installed and developed the lions share of Race Tech Emulators into SV650s, happily married to Traxxion Dynamics damper rods and Ohlins linear wind fork springs.
The fork springs we use are significantly shorter than stock and also all of the regular aftermarket options. This must be consistent with having enough stroke integrity left so that the springs dont coil bind at full closed position. The benefits of running much shorter springs is that there are a lot less coils, that means less rubbing against the inner fork walls, that support them. That means less friction and also less chards of metal being slowly scraped off the inner tube walls, in turn contaminating the oil and embedding in the fork glide bushings. Also less weight given that much of the space is then taken up instead by a long thin wall alloy preload spacer tube. The oil capacity is also greater given that there is less spring to displace oil. The springs we use are Ohlins Superbike springs, these are finished very nicely and accurately on their ends and have a much higher finish polish, in turn reducing friction even more. Looking at a lot of brands of aftermarket fork springs the finish and rough end conditions leaves a lot to be desired. There are always good reasons why some products are cheaper
Fork seals used are genuine as they are the highest quality but most importantly the lowest drag. We see red when we come across those red HIGH DRAG multilip seals and refuse point blank to fit them. Why would you want to make your fork action sticky?
The RACE TECH EMULATORS themselves are not just a straight drop in, contrary to the marketing philosophy of self instal. We change the bypass hole size which is rather easy to do with brass as its solderable. We also change the rate of the main poppett spring and its preload.
Its fair to say that we have a very very well developed spec and both Geoff Booth and Johny Small used this very developed spec to very good effect over the last 2 years to win their respective NZ Pro Twins championships.
But we are always game to try different things and Ricor Intiminators captured our attention so we acquired a set specifically spec'd for racing SV650s to test. We didnt wish to pre-guess the settings so we initially installed as per the instructions.
Its fair to say that with most American made products its easy to get euphoric about all the loud hype that these companies are so predisposed to doing to peddle their products. We have seen this time and time again over the decades with American product and I think English reserve teaches you to not be intimidated by it but to also keep an open mind. Those US reality shows such as ''Extreme Makeover'' really typify about how loud and over the top our American cousins all too often are and I make no apology for being put off by it.
Anyway we installed a set and ( as you do ) we initially pushed on them to see how the feel was compared to the well developed RACE TECH EMULATOR forks. Frankly they felt excessively firm but the most noticable thing was that there was a very audible click at even a very moderate push. Concurrent with that we could feel a little cavitation, a bad sign. This we initially thought was the ''Inertia valve'' but after looking at it again and thinking it through the reason was obvious, the Intiminator was momentarily lifting off its seat and then reseating. This was further exacerbated by an overaggressive ''shim stack'' spec.
As with Emulators the only thing that holds them in place is a degree of clamping pressure of the main fork spring sitting on it, its essentially sandwiched inbetween the top of the damper rod and the bottom of the main fork spring. So by implication Emulators ( genuine and low quality pirate rip offs ) will also momentarily lift off their seats, even moreso if the spring rate and preload is weak and the damping setting aggressively strong. Only they dont ( seemingly ) make any noise in doing so.
Anyway we rang the manuafcturer and said hey the setting is too aggressive and concurred on a lighter''shim stack''. We duly installed that and the clicking was less pronounced but nonetheless it was still there, along with cavitation. But we took it to Manfield and as we had two sets of forks, best Race Tech setup / Intiminator setup we were able to back to back on the day in rotation very quickly and totally plausibly. The end result was the Intiminator bike was not able to lap as fast and the rider complained that feel / feedback was inferior to the well sorted Race Tech Emulator equipped forks.
Here is a list of comments of Intiminators, from lengthy analysis and our own very methodical testing
1)) The bottoms of the Intiminators are a flat face so they just sit on the tops of the damper rods. There are no hat type steps to engage / centralise into the top of the damper rod as with a Race Tech Emulator. If as is all too often the case the damper rod is cocked to one side and is not perpendicular to the centreline of the fork then its not going to sit properly and ''assists'' in abutting the spring more firmly against one side of the inner fork tube wall. FRICTION, FRICTION, FRICTION.
2) To its credit the Intiminator has its own piston ring, that will help to stop it rubbing against the inner fork tube wall and will catch some of the UNCONTROLLED BLEED that passes the piston ring in the top hat of the damper rod. But it will also exacerbate the lifting off of the seat. To not put too fine a point on it this is bandaid engineering
3) Inertia valve. It sounds great in theory and its very hyped up but it certainly didnt deliver the goods in our extreme testing environment. And to me its a very poor substitute for a sophisticated modualting shim stack that the Intiminator clearly lacks
4)The shim stack. Its not really a shim stack and the manufacturer really dropped the ball over what was possible. Lack of proper well modulated flow contributes to the cavitation we felt, as well as the clicking we heard
5) Unlike Race Tech there is no instruction to remove the damper rods and to oversize the existing damping holes in the bottoms of the damper rods to remove them having a possible influence as a flow restriction. There are a number of models of bike out there with very tiny damping holes. These create a very real flow restriction on harsh bumps. Intiminator or no Intiminator, Emulator or no Emulator.
6) They recommend going to thin oil and in part they get away with it and its just as well given the very real cavitation thats going on. This in part but not wholly will compensate for not processing to a bigger size those damping holes and the two way flow restriction helps to deliver a modicum of rebound damping control, but very crudely and very incorrectly. By product, cavitation. Those that have studied the flow path circuits of rebound ''control'' in damper rod forks will understand exactly what I am driving at. Intiminators do not modulate rebound damping ( nor does an Emulator nor can they both ) Intiminators crudely restrict rebound flow.

On the face of it these are marketed for the consumer expectation of ''drop dead easy self instal'' when in reality its an extreme band aid. Sure as an average road going rider you will notice an improvement but ( cynically ) the flow restriction holds the forks up in their stroke much moreso, keeping the suspension from too readily blowing through its stroke and precompressing the springs so much that the suspension will get harsher. And if you hit something really abrupt the Intiminator will momentarily unseat off the top of the unsquare damper rod allowing a mass of thinner oil to bypass. Cavitation may also ''assist'' in delivering bump compliance!!!! Long term users of Intiminators will on stripdown witness ''activity on the bottom face of the Intiminator and top of the damper rod. indeed and in fairness we also evidence a degree of that with Emualtors, especially the nasty pirate ones that have a veneer anodising and are rapidly wearing through that to their soft alloy underbelly. Photographic evidence will follow in a future post.

Consumers are in part to blame because everyone wants an affordable product that will deliver a miracle cure and doesnt require a rocket scientist to instal and optimise. But I make no apology in re-emphasising that this is bandaid engineering to a very high degree. But then to a lesser degree so is the Emulator.
If you dynoed a Intiminator kitted fork the amount of hysteris that you would evidence would be huge. We havent dynoed such a fork but we have certainly felt it.

NEXT, The ''perfect'' Emulator and how it would work.

[johan]

Great thread, but it needs more pictures!
cheers

[Pussy]

Great thread, but it needs more pictures!
cheers

An example of aftermarket valving......

[Owl]

An example of aftermarket valving......

Quality plus:laugh:

My CKT stickers fell off.:weep:

[SWERVE]

As you say Robert a "band aid" and in most cases on a "broken leg" makes you fell better initially but still hurts like hell at bedtime:(
Great posts....... having to print them so i can re-read and take notes.....
keep it coming:ar15:

[Robert Taylor]

Illustrated is the folly of soft anodised alloy as a material choice for pirate copies of Race Tech emulators. Text to explain why will follow in a successive post




240693240692

[Robert Taylor]

Illustrated is the folly of soft anodised alloy as a material choice for pirate copies of Race Tech emulators. Text to explain why will follow in a successive post




240693240692

Up to a couple of years ago I expressed concerns about the longevity of cheap pirate copies made of alloy. The copies pictured have been in service for about 1 year and we have removed them to make the things actually work properly!
Heres a reminder of some of the main issues with damper rod forks:

1) Poor damper rod alignment meaning that the seating surface is not square / perpendicular to the centreline of the fork

2) The ''end conditions'' of many oem and budget priced fork springs are often unsquare and poorly finished with sharp edges that will ''bite'' into softer metals in short order

3) The reality that Emulators and Intiminators are actually not fully seated under all and varying deflection velocities. They hammer, bump and grind off and on the seating surfaces

Therefore any untruth in seating, rough spring end conditions matched to soft material choices is a recipe for disaster. In the images I posted you can see on their top surfaces where the spring ends have been digging in, on the opposite surface ( poorly focused image ) you can see advanced wear through the ''hard" ( ? )anodising where its through to the parent metal. Further use will be accompanied by rapidly accelerated wear, oil contamination and particles being embedded in the glide bushings. Not nice.

Id question if the anodising is little better than decorative grade anodising as it certainly doesnt imbue confidence that its true 1st world quality hard anodising. A test with a file on the exposed parent alloy also appears to indicate that the grade of aluminium alloy used is a basic grade with very few alloying elements to add hardness.

Another issue we found is that the one way check shims installed were in fact 2mm smaller in internal diameter than they should have been, and also 2mm smaller in id than the main high speed through flow port when the poppett valve opens. So it shadows the edge flow of the port ( in itself creating cavitation ) and adds unneccessary high speed flow restriction. In the attached topside image we have already corrected that issue.

Another practical issue is that the high speed poppett itself is also made of alloy. In genuine Race Tech emulators the parent metal is brass, itself a relatively low cost and easily machined material. Its more resistant to wear but also as the material is brass its easily solderable. In the poppetts are drilled one or two bypass holes for low speed compression flow. That is a tuning element we use quite often, tuning the size of that bypass hole. With a brass poppett its easy to solder up the existing hole and drilling another one opposite to it if you wish to downsize the hole. Try soldering aluminium!

You only get what you pay for, caveat emptor.

SO WHAT WOULD BE A PERFECT EMULATOR?

To my mind it would be a housing that threads into a damper rod that sits perfectly square in the forks with good sealing. No low cost bandaids here. Within the centre of that housing would sit a high flow piston the same as is used in many cartridge forks, with a proper modulating shim stack ( much more precise at initial flow control than a spring loaded poppett ) And in the centre of that housing would be an adjustable bypass needle for tuning low speed damping. Is it possible, you betcha. But like all interpretaions of Emulators it only has control over compression damping. Rebound flow is a more difficult issue, excepting that with careful attention to clearances and alignment you can produce a very decent result. Fixed orifice damping is more '' in tune'' with whats needed with a rebound force curve.

[AllanB]

The sexy scandinavian suspender left Stockholm yesterday!

:drool::drool: It's like being 6 years old again and waiting for Christmas! :2thumbsup

[SWERVE]

THE PERFECT EMULATOR
How much would it take to machine this kind of unit to say trial it on a set of damper rod forks. Or is it just too involved.

[gatch]

THE PERFECT EMULATOR
How much would it take to machine this kind of unit to say trial it on a set of damper rod forks. Or is it just too involved.

Anything can be done with enough $$

[bogan]

Speaking of which, I'm eagerly anticipating the writeup on semi-active suspension (ohlins CES).


Öhlins Racing’s vision is to realize the business mantra – “Make the world go electronic on suspension”.

http://www.ohlins.com/About-the-company/This-is-Ohlins/

[davebullet]

Combining with electronic suspension.... Why don't suspension manufacturers predict the road surface and prepare the bike accordingly? This would involve scanning the road ahead on the line being taken. When combined with speed measurement would allow clever suspension internals to proactively move in anticipation of the surface change, rather than react to it. Or maybe this isn't a new idea....

[Robert Taylor]

Combining with electronic suspension.... Why don't suspension manufacturers predict the road surface and prepare the bike accordingly? This would involve scanning the road ahead on the line being taken. When combined with speed measurement would allow clever suspension internals to proactively move in anticipation of the surface change, rather than react to it. Or maybe this isn't a new idea....

There is much that is already technically possible but its also about when the market is ready for it. You may be ready for it but is the market at large ready to accept it? Would you pay a premium because production volume is small or would you rather wait until the numbers that can be easily sold are significantly higher, in turn bringing the end cost down substanially? Given the broken world we have at present Id say its for very good reason that some releases of new product have been stalled.
Notwitstanding also that when Ohlins raced briefly with electronic suspension fitted to the WSB Yamahas ( and won ) the cavemen that are rulemakers promptly banned it
Electronic suspension aids also got banned right here in Enzed 3 years ago. We turned up at Pukekohe race track with an R6 for Sam Smith that had new and very effective fork components inside it, making it fast enough to stick it on pole and win a race. But at the same time we had somewhat elaborately machined up some dummy electronic servos that looked exactly like those on the WSB Yamahas. Craig Shirriffs( bless his heart ) colluded in our big charade and let on to another team manager that we had electronic suspension fitted. In line with the dark side of human nature this individual thought it highly unfair ( among a few others ), spat the dummy ( at our dummy ) and it was subsequently banned by MNZ.

[Robert Taylor]

Speaking of which, I'm eagerly anticipating the writeup on semi-active suspension (ohlins CES).



http://www.ohlins.com/About-the-company/This-is-Ohlins/

After my next trip to Stockholm!

[F5 Dave]

T. . . . But at the same time we had somewhat elaborately machined up some dummy electronic servos that looked exactly like those on the WSB Yamahas. Craig Shirriffs( bless his heart ) colluded in our big charade and let on to another team manager that we had electronic suspension fitted. In line with the dark side of human nature this individual thought it highly unfair ( among a few others ), spat the dummy ( at our dummy ) and it was subsequently banned by MNZ.
ok that's hilarimouse.:lol:

[Rcktfsh]

Electronic suspension aids also got banned right here in Enzed 3 years ago. We turned up at Pukekohe race track with an R6 for Sam Smith that had new and very effective fork components inside it, making it fast enough to stick it on pole and win a race. But at the same time we had somewhat elaborately machined up some dummy electronic servos that looked exactly like those on the WSB Yamahas. Craig Shirriffs( bless his heart ) colluded in our big charade and let on to another team manager that we had electronic suspension fitted. In line with the dark side of human nature this individual thought it highly unfair ( among a few others ), spat the dummy ( at our dummy ) and it was subsequently banned by MNZ.

You did a pretty good job on dummying that up.:killingme

[slofox]

My opinion, for what it's worth.

I had an SV650S. I had Race Tech emulators fitted - largely as a result of what Robert had to say. Fitted by the local agents under advice from Robert (thanks Robert).

Big improvement over the original forks.

Then I sold the SV and bought a GSXR.

Which was from a different planet again. I doubt I'd ever buy another bike with damper rod forks no matter how modified they were.

[Robert Taylor]

You did a pretty good job on dummying that up.:killingme

In fact when Ohlins release for production their electronically assisted suspension the bodies of the electronic units will look just about the same as our fake versions, only a lot neater! Its also exciting to report that retrofit of these units will be available to fit existing TTX36. So those who already have such a shock will not neccessarily have to purchase a whole new shock, just an upgrade kit.
Thats probably a very relevant point to consider when you are purchasing a new aftermarket shock and considering alternatives, how future proof is it? And how much pedigree and experience does the company have in electronic suspension control ( if at all, as is likely ) Ohlins started with electronic suspension way back in 84 with their CES valves and have built in excess of 1 million units to supply such brands as Audi, Volkswagen, Ford, Volvo, Ferrari etc.
When the WSB Yamahas briefly ran the electronically assisted TTX36 ( before it was banned ) it was clear that it was a huge leap.
Bring it on!!!

[Newo]

This stuff is really good.

Even if half of it isn't yet understood, it can sit in the back of my mind and marinate for a while.

[ecko_nzed]

Ahem!
Surely it's time for the next installment of stuff I struggle to understand :jerry:

[Robert Taylor]

Ahem!
Surely it's time for the next installment of stuff I struggle to understand :jerry:

So what specific part of suspension?:confused:

[nallac]

This should be made a sticky for us mere mortals....
Well done Dr Rob.................

[ecko_nzed]

So what specific part of suspension?:confused:
That I'd like to hear more about, or that I struggle to understand?

Keen to hear more about electronic suspension

And struggle to understand most concepts without pictures, I'm a visual learner :stupid:

[Robert Taylor]

That I'd like to hear more about, or that I struggle to understand?

Keen to hear more about electronic suspension

And struggle to understand most concepts without pictures, I'm a visual learner :stupid:

Ok, you will have to hold your breath on that one, after my next trip to Stockholm, date still to be set.

[butcherboy]

i have a dr650 was wanting to know how much would it cost to have the front shocks tidyed up with springs an intiminators / emulators and a new valve in the rear shock, thanks

[Robert Taylor]

i have a dr650 was wanting to know how much would it cost to have the front shocks tidyed up with springs an intiminators / emulators and a new valve in the rear shock, thanks

We tested Intiminators with a totally open mind. We are still now using Emulators because there are some huge ( shall we say )assumptions with Intiminators. Send me an e-mail sales@kss.net.nz