Referendum

[NinjaNanna]

Well I just took the time to read up on the 5 options being offered in the upcoming referendum on our electoral system. I've noticed the topic come up in general a few times on here so thought I'd better educate myself just a little. What follow are my views on the differing options.

Proportional Representation is what we need to change our country, its the only system that lets me vote based on both short term and long term issues. Whilst you may not agree with my political views MMP allows me to vote for the financial policies of National in my electorate seat, but also vote Green to bolster their nation wide party vote and subsequently the number of seats they get to influence and effect the change that's needed to address the issues of tomorrow. Under any other system a vote for Green is likely a throw away vote.

STV strikes me as unfair and with no real difference to FFP. The way they re-distribute votes seems heavily weighted to one party in that the most popular candidate then gets to give his "excess" votes to another candidate who, more likely than not, will be a 2nd runner from the same party. That candidates supporters already have the representitive that they wanted, why should they get another one as well. Also they don't tell you which votes they re-distribute, not every voter would have put down the same 2nd preference, so under this system not all votes are equal. Also with the reduced number of electorates, each with multiple MPs, town votes could easily out weigh rural votes leaving rural NZ with less of a voice. STV could be a fairer system if the 2nd count was the redistribution of the eliminated candidates votes rather than the re-distribution of excess votes from a successful candidate.

Preferential voting is inherently fair as it requires a candidate to actually be wanted by more than half the people they are supposed to represent. Unfortunately though it lacks the long term strategic advantages of Proportional Representation.

FPP is a crock, the biggest farce of all though is that it also underpins both MMP and SM as in both of the Proportional Representation models on offer, the Electorate Seats are decided using FPP.

All of this was gleemed from 20 mins of educating myself at http://www.referendum.org.nz/votingsystems

Personally I don't think any of the alternatives on offer are better than MMP, though imho MMP underpinned by PV for the Electorate Seats would be a great system. As such I'll be voting strategically, I'll vote for PV in the hope that its the one that gets the nod and that in turns sends a message to the committee running the 2012 Independant review of MMP. Hopefully they see sense and then give us the option to use PV for the Electorate Seats under MMP.

IF this happens I'd then elect to stay with the new improved MMP.


So what have I missed??? There's bound to be more to it all than this?

[James Deuce]

Good on you for even thinking about what you're going to do before you're faced with the form in the voting booth.

I reckon FPP will be back. Just cos Kiwis are lazy fuckers when it comes to politics. Never been invaded by Huns and seen their babies impaled on spikes is the problem.

[Toaster]

Where was the referendum option to tell them to go fuck themselves and halve the number of knobjockeys in Government??!!

Gutted.

[NinjaNanna]

The real irony is for most voters MMP is really FPP in disguise anyway. How many people actually split their vote. SFA I'd say

[munster]

What's the point? Seriously, we had a referendum a few years back and won overwhelming support to cut the number of MP's to 99. We also all voted to be tougher on serious crime. 85% of Franklin voted not to be part of Auckland (not an official referendum, but I'm still naively hopeful).

Politicians will only ever do what is in their own personal best interests. You and I just don't matter a fuck!

[James Deuce]

The real irony is for most voters MMP is really FPP in disguise anyway. How many people actually split their vote. SFA I'd say

One hears the truth in your words and feels your pain.

[malfunconz]

Bring back FPP . Get rid of 30 surplus MPs that MMP required , the vindictive populist celebrity driven egotistic "me first country second " trough feeders . :sick::shit::violin:

[Jantar]

...I reckon FPP will be back. Just cos Kiwis are lazy fuckers when it comes to politics. Never been invaded by Huns and seen their babies impaled on spikes is the problem.
Those of us who remember the FFP system will NOT want to go back to it. It often saw the party with the most votes end up in opposition, and always ended up with the government having less than half of the votes. In one memorable election a party with 30% of the votes only had 2 MPs. This is the worst possible electoral system.

PV would be my first choice, as only those candidates who are wanted by the electorate get elected.

STV Would be a close second. It does result in a proportional result, but not as clearly as PV

MMP is the worst of the proportional systems yet is still way better than FFP. the biggest drawback with MMP is that a large proportion of parliament are not voted in by the public, but are selected by their party. By placing a candidate way up the party list, the most unpopular politician can still end up in parliament, and even be PM. Perhaps MMP could still be the best of the lot if the party list wasn't decided till after the election. The list could be made up solely from the party's losing candidates with the highest place on the list going to the candidte with the narrowest losing margin and working down to the candidate on the bottom of the list being the one with the greatest losing margin. That brings the power back to the people rather than the party.

[James Deuce]

I know mate, but there is a significant voter base that have no experience of FPP and the resulting bipartisan politics where participation is governed by belonging to a political party.

[short-circuit]

I'd like to know where the fuck the mandate came from to have the referendum in the first place.

Cunts are just going to keep trying to set the gullible, uninformed NZ public up to revert back to FPP (as the natural level of support for the rightist agenda is around 30% in NZ and not much more). FPP is the only system that would allow a politcial party to rule with a minority like that.

[slowpoke]

MMP allows me to vote for the financial policies of National in my electorate seat, but also vote Green to bolster their nation wide party vote and subsequently the number of seats they get to influence and effect the change that's needed to address the issues of tomorrow.

Haha, that's like asking Mother Theresa to put a leash on Attila the Hun....good luck with that.

Edit: sorry, I don't mean to dis your political leanings, but that really is trying to butter both sides of your political toast. Good on you for doing some research when most folks are more worried about the weekend sports results than anything that actually affects their lives.....but at the core of it all I can't help thinking voting for 2 such diametrically opposed parties and expecting a result somewhere in the middle is......er, (searches for polite term)....inefficent.

[James Deuce]

I'd like to know where the fuck the mandate came from to have the referendum in the first place.

Cunts are just going to keep trying to set the gullible, uninformed NZ public up to revert back to FPP (as the natural level of support for the rightist agenda is around 30% in NZ and not much more). FPP is the only system that would allow a politcial party to rule with a minority like that.

Yes. Indeed.

[NinjaNanna]

Haha, that's like asking Mother Theresa to put a leash on Attila the Hun....good luck with that.

Edit: sorry, I don't mean to dis your political leanings, but that really is trying to butter both sides of your political toast. Good on you for doing some research when most folks are more worried about the weekend sports results than anything that actually affects their lives.....but at the core of it all I can't help thinking voting for 2 such diametrically opposed parties and expecting a result somewhere in the middle is......er, (searches for polite term)....inefficent.

Guess who holds the balance of power in the Australian parliament at present! 1 Greens MP and 3 Independents in the House of Reps and 1 Green MP in the Senate. Combined they hold very few seats but because they are required to get any legislation passed they are in a serious position to influence and effect change for issues of importance to them and subsequently their supporters. This is a very rare situation, but under MMP is much easier to achieve.

Would I want a Green lead government - definately not - do I want them to have leverage - most definately.

[NinjaNanna]

Perhaps MMP could still be the best of the lot if the party list wasn't decided till after the election. The list could be made up solely from the party's losing candidates with the highest place on the list going to the candidte with the narrowest losing margin and working down to the candidate on the bottom of the list being the one with the greatest losing margin. That brings the power back to the people rather than the party.

Fortunately thats on the list of things for the review committee to investigate, personally I think your idea is a good one


If at least half of voters opt to keep MMP, there will be an independent review of MMP in 2012 to recommend any changes that should be made to the way it works. The Electoral Commission will conduct the review and the public will have the opportunity to give their views.

The Electoral Referendum Act specifies that the Electoral Commission must review:

The 5 percent party vote threshold for a party to be eligible for allocation of list seats;
The one electorate seat threshold for a party to be eligible for allocation of list seats;
The effects of population change on the ratio of electorate seats to list seats;
The effect of a party’s candidates winning more seats than the party would be entitled as a result of the party vote;
The capacity of a person to be both a constituency candidate and a list candidate;
A party’s ability to determine the order of candidates on its party list and the inability of voters to rank list candidates in order of preference;
Other matters as referred to it by the Minister of Justice or the House of Representatives.
The size of Parliament and Maori representation will not be reviewed, but the Commission may consider any other aspects of the MMP voting system.

The Commission must report back to the Minister of Justice by 31 October 2012.

[MIXONE]

Thanks for bringing this up.I confess to being one of those Kiwis who would probably not considered this until voting day but now will give it the thoughts that it deserves.
My only problem is I think that all polies are a bunch of lying pricks anyway and not to be trusted.Was it Mark Twain who said something along the lines of "Only those who do not want to be politicians should be allowed to be".

[Mully]

I'd like to know where the fuck the mandate came from to have the referendum in the first place.

Didn't the Nats campaign on that in 2008? Because we'd been told there would be one earlier, and were lied to again?

If they did campaign on it - then there's the mandate.

And, Holy Shit, isn't Winston Peters the poster child for all that's wrong with MMP?

I love your logic though; "Where do they get off letting the population decided on something. Grr". You really need to calm down a bit.

[Jantar]

Fortunately thats on the list of things for the review committee to investigate, personally I think your idea is a good one
It would be better if they held that review before the referendum. That way we would have a fair base to vote on. As it stands should MMP get the nod we still won't know just what changes, if any, will be made.

I shall vote PV.

[geoffm]

If we want a proportional and fair voting system. the first thing is do as the Royal Commission recommended (and Doug Graham rejected) - get rid of the Maori seats. They are racist, and in effect a handful of Mari MPs run the country. A Maori seat vote is worth many times as much as a general vote in terms of influence or deciding who runs the show

[Ronin]

Didn't the Nats campaign on that in 2008? Because we'd been told there would be one earlier, and were lied to again?

If they did campaign on it - then there's the mandate.



Thats what I thought happened.

In my opinion, choosing one system over the other is like saying "we dislike that one the least", which to be honest is more or less how we elect our politicians.

FPP is an anachronism.
MMP = a system that the public simply don't understand and the snakes make the most of that.

I don't like any of the options to be honest but PV is the one I dislike the least. that or SM. Or BDSM.

[schrodingers cat]

First Past the Post.

Like slavery, it gets shit done.

[Gremlin]

We have 4.5 million people. There are cities with more people. We should have an NZ Council and a Lord Mayor, no parliament.

Of course, this has as much chance of happening as the number of MP's going down :facepalm: (We were all suckers thinking they would kick their mates off the gravy train).

Since these aren't options, SM for me.

[Swoop]

The people will be deluded into thinking that FPP is wonderful.:facepalm: They have absolutely no memory of the complete fuck-up that was.

If you sheeple want to go back to a two party political system, vote for FPP and have your views ignored by only 2 parties.
It was like a giant see-saw with National and Liarbour. Those were / will be your only viable options.

If you truly believe that there will be less seats in paliament, if you vote for FPP, you need to go and kill yourself now - before Darwin gets to you.

[rainman]

Just cos Kiwis are lazy fuckers when it comes to politics. Never been invaded by Huns and seen their babies impaled on spikes is the problem.

Apparently I can not bling you at present, but... word.


MMP allows me to vote for the financial policies of National in my electorate seat, but also vote Green to bolster their nation wide party vote and subsequently the number of seats they get to influence and effect the change that's needed to address the issues of tomorrow.

Why, do you have a head injury? :facepalm:

Sorry, I'm just struggling to see how anyone could see that National OR Labour have a handle on the issues of tomorrow, let alone the issues of today.


A Maori seat vote is worth many times as much as a general vote in terms of influence or deciding who runs the show

Perhaps so, but bear in mind for a very long time the colonists had total control and there was not much opportunity for the Maori voice to be heard. Reasonable to fix that, perhaps?


Like slavery, it gets shit done.

And smells about as good. Great moral compass you have there.

[Voltaire]

Can yo text your vote in as its too much effort to go to the polling station...:innocent:

[NinjaNanna]

Why, do you have a head injury? :facepalm:

Sorry, I'm just struggling to see how anyone could see that National OR Labour have a handle on the issues of tomorrow, let alone the issues of today.


You mis-read me, my opinion is that the Greens have some conscience on what we will leave for our children. They may not have all the answers, but at least they are zealous about addressing them, which is more than can be said about National and Labour.

So whilst I like the Greens for their environmental stance, I wouldn't trust them with today's economy, hence National for issues of today, Green for the issues of tomorrow.

MMP allows me to strike a balance. Only proportional representation allows me to effect this world view.

[rainman]

You mis-read me

...hence National for issues of today

No, I think I got it. The bit in red is what I have issues with. But, each to their own.

[Pussy]

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/b9QZ-v-0tM4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[schrodingers cat]

And smells about as good. Great moral compass you have there.

Can you spell irony?

Fuck it - just tell us all what to think.

Even better a dictatorship! You go first.

Dictatorship naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme liberty.
Plato

[98tls]

Why not sack the current lot build a fucking great bridge across the ditch and change to "New Australia",better still have one end of it in the South Isle, end the Treaty bullshit once and for all by giving the Nth Isle to the Maori where they can govern themselves.

[rainman]

Can you spell irony?

Hard to tell, around here.

[ynot slow]

MMP gave us cunts with egos,and because we weren't privy to the minor players allegiancy(sp)you were never sure if voting Nats involved Peters getting a major place in a winning govt as a major loser,much like Act and other parties.I voted for an electorate MP and another party at one election,because the MP had done a good job in our electorate,but with FPP I wouldn't have voted for the party involved.

[jim.cox]

List Politicians strikes me as 'jobs for the boys' and is a bad thing

But its better than First Past the Post

So, while I would prefer a better system, the inherently biased way this referendum is worded pretty much forces to sticking with the status quo

[Oscar]

I'm not sure that the referndum is going to address this, but one important factor with MMP is the threshold for representation. It's currently set at 5%, which is possibly a little low.

When you apply the threshold to the likes of ACT and the Greens, you end up with a lot of MP's with no electorates. Personally I think it's very important that an MP be held responsible by not just their party, but their voters. With no electorate seat, there are a bunch of people who aren't in the public spotlight.

Without reference, how many of you could name all the ACT & Green MP's?

[SPman]

FPP is a great system - if there are only 2 parties!

[MisterD]

Personally I think it's very important that an MP be held responsible by not just their party, but their voters.

That's the key right there. It's taken as read that more proportionality is somehow better, for my money that's a complete red-herring is more direct accountability of politicians to voters that's the most important thing. I'd like to see FPP with open primaries so that MP's that piss off their electorates can still be dumped as candidate in a safe "Party X" seat



Without reference, how many of you could name all the ACT & Green MP's?

I tested myself and got 7/8 Greens and all the ACT. Missed David Clendon.

[Ender EnZed]

It's taken as read that more proportionality is somehow better, for my money that's a complete red-herring

Really? Would it not bother you at all to have more than 50% of voters support Party X and Party X not be the government? I agree proportionality isn't the only issue that needs to be taken into account but for all votes to be equal it's pretty important.