all care no responsibility

[WINJA]

THIS WAS ON A SIGN AT A MOTORCYCLE WORKSHOP I WAS AT YESTERDAY, I SAID WHAT DOES THAT MEAN THE MANAGER SAID THEY TREAT CUSTOMER BIKES WITH ALL CARE BUT IF THEY DROP THEM OFF THE STAND OR CRASH THEM ON A TEST RIDE THE SHOP IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR REPAIRS OR REIMBURSMENT.
THIS CANT BE RIGHT SURELY , IF YOU TAKE YOUR BIKE IN FOR A SERVICE AND THEY CRASH IT AND YOU DONT HAVE INSURANCE THEY SHOULD REPAIR OR REPLACE THE BIKE, IN FACT IF I HAD INSURANCE AND THEY CRASH MY BIKE I DONT WANT TO CLAIM MY INSURANCE.
IF I SAID ALL CARE NO RESPONSIBILITY TO MY CUSTOMERS ID LOSE THE CONTRACT.

[placidfemme]

Which bike shop is that? *never wants to take my bike there*

Some bike shops are money focused others are customer care focused (Could name a few for you)

[spudchucka]

The shop should have some sort of "all risks" insurance policy. I'd take it elsewhere.

[Sparky Bills]

A bike fell off one of our stands once.
Broke fairing etc. We got it fixed and repainted.
I would have thought that it would be good will just to fix it if it was our fault.
And we did.

Im sure there are different situations though. Not all going to be the bike shops fault.

[zadok]

It's a wonder they're still in business! Sparky Bill's joint has the right idea...onya.

[spudchucka]

Any business operator should know that good will is the way to achieve repeat business. And that is the business you want, customers that keep coming back because they know they are looked after. If a shop screws up and it costs them money to fix it they can still win long term because the customer will keep coming back to them. They will also tell everyone within their circle of influence about the good service they received and this may bring in new business. Happy customers are the best form of advertising you can get.

[Waylander]

Wich shop was it man? I havn't seen any of those signs here. Havn't really looked though.

[WINJA]

Which bike shop is that? *never wants to take my bike there*

Some bike shops are money focused others are customer care focused (Could name a few for you)
I DONT WANT TO LABEL THEM AS A BAD SHOP TO DEAL WITH CAUSE TWICE THEVE COME THRU FOR ME INLUDING DOING WORK 2 DAYS B4 MY WARRANTY EXPIRED TO THE TUNE OF $700 OR SO AFTER POINTING OUT IN THE FINE PRINT THE PROBLEM IS NOT COVERED UNDER WARRANTY, IVE BOUGHT 2 NEW BIKES THERE AND AM CONSIDERING BY MY 3RD, I HOPE THEIR GOING TO RECONSIDER THE SIGN, IVE SEEN SOME CAR WORKSHOPS WITH THE SAME SIGN

[FROSTY]

I thought it was against the law to opperate without public liability insurance.
Actually Im darn sure thats the case.
Mind you some people really push the limits of patience.
One guy recently bought a car from me --a cheap trade in.
looked around it -drove it -paid a deposit.
He came back to take delivery the next day and insisted that a small dent /scratch in the passenger door was fresh and that we shold fix it.
despite the dent being there the whole time.
Ya just can't win with the public.

[WINJA]

I thought it was against the law to opperate without public liability insurance.
Actually Im darn sure thats the case.
Mind you some people really push the limits of patience.
One guy recently bought a car from me --a cheap trade in.
looked around it -drove it -paid a deposit.
He came back to take delivery the next day and insisted that a small dent /scratch in the passenger door was fresh and that we shold fix it.
despite the dent being there the whole time.
Ya just can't win with the public.
I THOUGHT I SAW ON "FAIR GO" THE ALL CARE NO RESPONSIBILTY THING DOESNT STAND UP IN COURT

[HDTboy]

It's pretty much standard practice, almost every shop will fix things under good will though to keep their customers. It just gives them a bit of negotiating room if things turn nasty.
I know our company insurance policy stipulates that we claim on the customers insurance and we're an upmarket franchise dealer

[WINJA]

It's pretty much standard practice, almost every shop will fix things under good will though to keep their customers. It just gives them a bit of negotiating room if things turn nasty.
I know our company insurance policy stipulates that we claim on the customers insurance and we're an upmarket franchise dealer
I ONLY GET 3RD PARTY INSURANCE

[HDTboy]

You'll probably find in the small print on your invoice, "all vehicles stored and driven at owners risk." Or words to that effect
On the topic of third party insurance, it's a risk that you take when you go for third party, sad but true. I'm sure that if there ever was a problem the shop would do the best they could out of good will. It's just a case of C.Y.A.

[DingDong]

This is legal, it is part of their terms of service.
However it is not enough for them to just have a sign... customers may not read it, they must show you and make sure you understand their terms.

Personally I would not go back there... customer satisfaction and all that crap.
If you'd like to play be their rules(which you can) write you own terms of service.
Ie:
1 The hoist they use must be certified
2 If the bike falls in the workshop... company is liable
3 You will test the bike

and the rest you can make up yourself as needed or condition changes. If they dont accept you terms of service you can always negotiate until both parties are happy... or go elsewhere

[Drew]

I thought it was against the law to opperate without public liability insurance.
Actually Im darn sure thats the case.
Mind you some people really push the limits of patience.
One guy recently bought a car from me --a cheap trade in.
looked around it -drove it -paid a deposit.
He came back to take delivery the next day and insisted that a small dent /scratch in the passenger door was fresh and that we shold fix it.
despite the dent being there the whole time.
Ya just can't win with the public.
Nah, you can operate without liability insurance. Beaurepairs stores don't have insurance, if they bend a customer car, it comes out of that stores poket (so to speak), but if a car is in there care, they are responsibly for its well being.

[gav]

We use to have a "All Care No Responsibility" policy at my last job, say you ordered a truck load of bark and you wanted it in a certain area of your section, driver would check out where its going, but customer is liable if any damage is done to concrete drive, fence, trees etc if driver has concerns about where its going. Had a delivery once where the customer pointed out where the truck was to go (on a farm) driver said "looks a bit boggy, mate" owner says" no worries I've got a tractor if you get stuck". Sure enough, truck got stuck, and yip his tractor had no show of pulling out a 8 wheeler Nissan CG380 bulk tipper. Neither did neighbours tractor, truck spent FIVE hours stuck in paddock, until large crane had to come out from town and help pull truck out. You think customer wanted to know about cost of that plus 5 hours truck hire? Not a chance......

[Lou Girardin]

I don't think a civil court would put too much weight on that "all care, no repsonsibilty" sign.
I wouldn't use a shop that tried that one.

[Beemer]

It's a bit like those "lovely to look at, lovely to hold, if you drop it, consider it sold" signs in gift shops. Unless they can prove you were negligent, they can't make you pay for any broken items.

A lot of shops work under this type of thing nowadays - get something dry cleaned and they state that if the garment falls to bits while they are cleaning it, tough biccies. Likewise with film developing - if they lose your film, they will replace it, but they won't pay for you to go back to Fiji to retake the photos!

I bet most companies would come to the party if they damaged your bike themselves, it's probably more to do with cases where someone breaks in and trashes the place or steals stuff. It may also be to stop people claiming that the dents/imperfections on their vehicle WEREN'T there when it went in for servicing. I'd have a word to them and ask them to explain exactly what it means for you. You could find they have had the sign for years but if anything ever goes wrong, they put it right for the customer.

[Coyote]

Any business operator should know that good will is the way to achieve repeat business. And that is the business you want, customers that keep coming back because they know they are looked after. If a shop screws up and it costs them money to fix it they can still win long term because the customer will keep coming back to them. They will also tell everyone within their circle of influence about the good service they received and this may bring in new business. Happy customers are the best form of advertising you can get.
It's the whole 'Fuck spending a penny to save a pound, I don't want to risk losing my penny' mentality. They're not likely to spend all that money fixing their cock-up because how do they know that the customer is going to return and spend big?

[vifferman]

They're not likely to spend all that money fixing their cock up
You meant "cockup" or "cock-up", right? :confused:

[Coyote]

You meant "cockup" or "cock-up", right? :confused:
It wouldn't be a problem if everyone didn't have to see things in their sickest sense <_<

[Wolf]

Likewise with film developing - if they lose your film, they will replace it, but they won't pay for you to go back to Fiji to retake the photos!
But they will damn-near crucify the dick that lost/wrecked your film. Years ago when I was working in a commercial film lab I cut through my finger with the powered splicer. You should have heard the language - not me, my boss! Blood does nasty things to film emulsion and I had destroyed three frames by bleeding on them - that was worth a five minute rant about how we can't replace the clients' photos so they must be treated with utmost care.

[Beemer]

I wish I'd had my work developed at YOUR lab, Wolf! I used to do a lot of rallying photography and one lot of shots I got back had the worst colour cast. They had assumed the grass was green and worked from that assumption - but the grass was actually grey as it was covered in dust! Red cars came out orange, and the guy got a bit annoyed at having to do them again!

Likewise with our wedding shots - "hey, it's a bride, she must be wearing white" - I wasn't, I was in ivory, which is quite a warm cream - so a pile of reprints I had done at another lab were terrible. Making my dress white made me so pale I looked at death's door!

[Lou Girardin]

But they will damn-near crucify the dick that lost/wrecked your film. Years ago when I was working in a commercial film lab I cut through my finger with the powered splicer. You should have heard the language - not me, my boss! Blood does nasty things to film emulsion and I had destroyed three frames by bleeding on them - that was worth a five minute rant about how we can't replace the clients' photos so they must be treated with utmost care.

Well bleed carefully then.

[Ixion]

Well bleed carefully then.
VERY carefully. Werewolf + blood is not a good formula!

[Oscar]

The "all care, no responsibility" deal pretty much sums up the law.
If something happens to your bike at the shop, they only have to pay if it's their fault.

If a your bike falls of the stand, they would propbaly have to pay (it should have been secured properly).

If your uninsured bike is stolen from a locked workshop, tough luck.

If the mechanic is road testing your bike and it gets written off by a drunk driver, tough luck.

[vifferman]

I wish I'd had my work developed at YOUR lab, Wolf!
Yeah.
When I was doing my MSc, I took some photos for a classmate for his thesis. Despite asking the lab to be careful, they came back looking like someone had spilt their morning tea on the negatives. It was bloody annoying, as they couldn't be redone - he'd taken me up in a hired plane to get some aerial photos out the window! What was even more annying is that had I know they were likely to cock them up, I could've done a better job developing them myself, as I'd had quite a bit of experience with B&W developing. Grrr.....

As for this "all care, no responsibility" stuff - it sounds a bit weak to me. You damage it, you pay for it. Anything else is just immoral.

[Wolf]

VERY carefully. Werewolf + blood is not a good formula!
No, that's Vampires + blood. I'm more partial to steak - and we all know Vampires fear steaks.

Beemer: They were probably pissed because they had already done a run, found they didn't look "right" and had to do another run to "correct" them and then you wanted them to do a third run to correct it to how it should be.

That does not excuse their attitude - they were the ones who made the cock-up and the cost of correcting it should be on their heads and they should be polite about it, but the motivation for their unprofessional behaviour was monetary.

I can understand that without a known colour reference they could get confused, but I would have thought that there would have been something in at least one of the photos that would have helped them determine the correct colour. Someone's face in close-up to set a natural skin tone, a known logo, whatever.

[Wolf]

The "all care, no responsibility" deal pretty much sums up the law.
If something happens to your bike at the shop, they only have to pay if it's their fault.

If a your bike falls of the stand, they would propbaly have to pay (it should have been secured properly).

If your uninsured bike is stolen from a locked workshop, tough luck.

If the mechanic is road testing your bike and it gets written off by a drunk driver, tough luck.
I can understand those points - if the mechanic acted a dick and wrote the bike off I'd expect him to pay but if it's actions of a third party (thieves, other drivers) that caused the damage, then they would have grounds for saying "nah, mate, we couldn't 'elp it."

It's the "All care" bit - if my bike falls off a stand or their mech rides it into a wall, they didn't take "all care" and are liable in my book. If they had the place locked up and some shit still manages to get in and wreaks havoc on a number of bikes, I would like for them to have some insurance to cover it but if they don't, I should have my own cover anyway. (If they are insured, "Yay, I keep my no claims bonus")

That said, I'd probably rather tyake my bike to a place that is covered against theft or accidental damage by third parties.

[Motu]

The "all care, no responsibility" deal pretty much sums up the law.
If something happens to your bike at the shop, they only have to pay if it's their fault.

If a your bike falls of the stand, they would propbaly have to pay (it should have been secured properly).

If your uninsured bike is stolen from a locked workshop, tough luck.

If the mechanic is road testing your bike and it gets written off by a drunk driver, tough luck.

Yeah,it's a pretty standard disclaimer,we can't really be held responsable just because your vehicle was in our range of vision,we are responsable for our workers actions...but not fridges falling from the sky.

About 25 years ago I was taking a MKII Jag for a WoF,as I turned of Titirangi rd into Godley rd I heard a funny noise...as the car picked up speed down the steep hill the noise got worse everytime I touched the brakes....so I tried not to use them,by the last corner I was moving pretty fast,and with one last dab on the pedal...CLUNK,the right front wheel came off and trundled down the road....I was watching it as I struggled to bring a 3 wheeled Jag to a safe stop.I saw it dissapear through a flax bush and then it went down Castleford St.When I got out,inspected the Jag and went to look for the wheel...I found it wedged into the drivers door of a Mitsi Galant!

What happened was the splines on the knock off hub had stripped,so when I touched the brakes the hub stopped...and unwound the knock off...and then the wheel fell off.Right hand thread,right hand wheel.

What a drama! The owners insurance wasn't paying out as he wasn't the driver.....our insurance wasn't paying out because it wasn't my fault...the owner of the Galant wanted a new door,from someone! I don't know what the outcome was as the business was sold and I left - but was talking to my old boss a couple of years later and he said it was still going on.Liability is a minefield and these days we have to protect ourselves from customers who want to blame anyone for any little thing.Had some horrible tyke bleating and moaning about a broken alarm remote last week - I told him to just fuck off! I'm not paying for a complete alarm system just because his remote was broken by hanging on my key rack along with a hundred others a week that survive.

[Oscar]

I can understand those points - if the mechanic acted a dick and wrote the bike off I'd expect him to pay but if it's actions of a third party (thieves, other drivers) that caused the damage, then they would have grounds for saying "nah, mate, we couldn't 'elp it."

It's the "All care" bit - if my bike falls off a stand or their mech rides it into a wall, they didn't take "all care" and are liable in my book. If they had the place locked up and some shit still manages to get in and wreaks havoc on a number of bikes, I would like for them to have some insurance to cover it but if they don't, I should have my own cover anyway. (If they are insured, "Yay, I keep my no claims bonus")

That said, I'd probably rather tyake my bike to a place that is covered against theft or accidental damage by third parties.

This is where the confusion between moral and legal liability comes in.
If your bike is in my locked workshop and some scum bag breaks in and steals it, I may feel bad, but I'm not legally liable for the theft. The only way any liability would attach is if the workshop was insecure.

Even if the shop was insured, some amount of negligence would have to be evident before a claim could be made (failure to secure the premises).

[Deano]

I THOUGHT I SAW ON "FAIR GO" THE ALL CARE NO RESPONSIBILTY THING DOESNT STAND UP IN COURT

There are certain Acts you cannot contract out of like Consumer Guarantees Act.

If someone is in charge of your bike (which they are when they agree to work on it) and it gets damaged, I think you could take them to court for negligence. Sign or no sign.

[Wolf]

This is where the confusion between moral and legal liability comes in.
If your bike is in my locked workshop and some scum bag breaks in and steals it, I may feel bad, but I'm not legally liable for the theft. The only way any liability would attach is if the workshop was insecure.

Even if the shop was insured, some amount of negligence would have to be evident before a claim could be made (failure to secure the premises).
So it's up to me to cover against theft unless it's evident that the company did not take "all care", fair enough.

Raises the question of insurance when the bike is taken for a test ride - if I have full cover but an under 25-years exclusion, I presume the onus is upon me to make that clear to the workshop staff so that they don't send their 24-year-old apprentice up the road on it.

[Beemer]

Holly shit, Motu, what are the odds of that happening?! We were going down the Ohope Hill one day and were overtaken by the wheel off some guy's trailer! He was behind us, trailing sparks all the way as his trailer dragged on the axle - the wheel bounced across the intersection and thankfully avoided doing any damage.

You're right Wolf, that lab wasn't my usual lab and they obviously thought grass was meant to be bright green! But the dust ended up being almost brown rather than gold so it should have given them a clue. I usually took my films to WPS and they were pretty good about getting the colour right. As for the wedding ones, I didn't ask for them to be redone, but the next time I got some done there (needed them in a hurry so had to get them done locally) I took some shots in so they could colour match them, but even then I wasn't impressed. Not only did they charge me to colour match them (yes!) but they ended up doing three copies in an attempt to get it right - which it still wasn't! For the price, I should have got on the bike and taken them through to E-Pics who did the originals!

[Motu]

It's the "All care" bit - if my bike falls off a stand or their mech rides it into a wall, they didn't take "all care" and are liable in my book. .

This isn't involved in the ''All care,no responsability'',I think you are all confused by what it means.It means they will take all care with your bike,and if anything happens under their care that THEY ARE RESPONSABLE FOR,then they will fix it,and be covered by their insurance,which will include a public liability clause for totaly off the wall stuff like the workshop burning down.They are trying to contract out of what their insurance won't cover them for,they are covered for what is required to run a lawful business,if they can't get insurance cover - they can't offer it to you,hence the disclaimer.

[Oscar]

So it's up to me to cover against theft unless it's evident that the company did not take "all care", fair enough.

Raises the question of insurance when the bike is taken for a test ride - if I have full cover but an under 25-years exclusion, I presume the onus is upon me to make that clear to the workshop staff so that they don't send their 24-year-old apprentice up the road on it.


Right.
Although if the Shop has a decent broker (like me :whistle: ), they'll have a clause that includes "..customers vehicles, not otherwise insured."

[Oscar]

This isn't involved in the ''All care,no responsability'',I think you are all confused by what it means.It means they will take all care with your bike,and if anything happens under their care that THEY ARE RESPONSABLE FOR,then they will fix it,and be covered by their insurance,which will include a public liability clause for totaly off the wall stuff like the workshop burning down.They are trying to contract out of what their insurance won't cover them for,they are covered for what is required to run a lawful business,if they can't get insurance cover - they can't offer it to you,hence the disclaimer.


If your workshop burns down (thorugh no fault of yours) with my bike in it, it's my problem. Your liability insurer will not pay unless I can prove negligence.

[Motu]

If your workshop burns down (thorugh no fault of yours) with my bike in it, it's my problem. Your liability insurer will not pay unless I can prove negligence.

That's why I have a broker - I just ring him up and say....''ah,um...you see....um'' Nice to know you have a useful purpose in life - are you still in that side of things?

[Oscar]

That's why I have a broker - I just ring him up and say....''ah,um...you see....um'' Nice to know you have a useful purpose in life - are you still in that side of things?

I specialise in Legal Liability and Professional Indemnity.
It's really exciting http://www.advrider.com/forums/images/smilies/sleep.gif