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FROSTY
2nd July 2005, 12:41
The whole braking issue/question keeps getting raised,and hopefully will just keep on bein raised.
In my opinion a chimp could be trained to take off on a hayabussa but it takes brains to stop it again especially in tricky conditions.
So To our less experienced members I'd suggest this is one of the most important things to practice.
How fast can ya stop if you need to??
What about in wet conditions??
What brake do ya use -front/back/engine -all??
What do ya do if ya get a front wheel slide??
What is pre braking and how can it improve my stopping distance??
This is all stuff better praciced under controled conditions not in the heat of the moment

Some expert told me it takes 16 repetitions before something can become a habit. - thats a fair bit of practice.

Jackrat
2nd July 2005, 13:19
16 repetitions ??
That doesn't really suprise me,most things take practice before we get good at them.
Something I do with every bike I buy is to find a quite car park an practice braking.This includes rear only,front only,both togeather.
I like to have a mate along that can call out when to stop when practicing panic braking.
You get up to a good speed an then said mate calls out "NOW".
You can then measure your braking distance ect.
It can be an eye opener.
Another thing I like to practice is changing lines while under brakes.
I pick a mark then head toward it at a normal road speed,anywhere between 50-100kms.When your inside your known braking distance you chuck out all brakes and try to avoid the mark at the same time.
Even practicing direction changes at reasonable speeds without braking can teach one a lot about the bike/rider combo.
Good fun as well. :yes:

TwoSeven
2nd July 2005, 13:41
Some expert told me it takes 16 repetitions before something can become a habit. - thats a fair bit of practice.

Your talking about simple conditioning (i've posted about it before in other threads).

The way I do it, which may be different from others.

Basic rule I use. If you change bikes or work on your brakes, you need to do some brake testing. It takes 5 mins and is fairly simple.

All you need to do is find a vacent lot or car park, drive along at 10mph like you are doing your basic riding test and snap the front brake. Softly at first, then harder each time.

Snapping the brake means to bang it on fast and then let go very quickly so it doesnt lock. Its conditioning you not to lock them up and to mentally understand what the different lever pressures do. The reason you do it after every mod of the brakes, is because the behaviour changes, so you need to reapply the conditioning.

After that you repeat the procedure but perform an emergency stop also using the rear - remember its front brake then back brake (with not really a gap in between). Remember you dont squeeze the lever for grim life, its just on, then squeeze (for how long depends on how much you need to slow) then off. Many pommie riders will know that if you skid any wheel you fail your test, so thats the standard you need to aim for.

If your brave enough to want to practice in the wet, its rear brake then front (you need to squat the bike not dive it). Again, on gently then squeeze, but remember while riding in the wet to often use the brakes to clean off the surface water and crud otherwise when you really need them the pads may aquaplane on the discs.

To me, it really is important to get the hang of the soft lever squeeze followed by applying the pressure harder (kind of like a two phase brake application). The first part of the lever pressure not only cleans the disc surface of any crud, it also has the affect of transfering the weight forwards gently.

Personally I dont believe in covering brake levers. The time it takes you to move your hand over the lever and squeeze it is long enough for your brain to realise what its about to do and adjust for it. You'll also find by not covering you'll automatically guage the correct braking force and use the correct number of fingers for the application (which kind of solves that debate) - a technique that is usefull on the track.

If you cover, you'll likely use the 'panic vice grip' which will lock the bike and dump you on the ground. Anyhow, if youre that close to hitting something - doesnt matter how hard you squeeze the lever, you'll hit it anyhow - no bike can stop in more than 1/10th of a second if they are moving faster than 10mph.

Thats my opinion anyhow :)

If you really want to learn correct procedure its always worth doing a proper riding course. Amazing what you learn on em :)

erik
2nd July 2005, 15:49
...Many pommie riders will know that if you skid any wheel you fail your test, so thats the standard you need to aim for.

I would've failed my restricted licence test then, the rear locked up a bit on me when I had to do the braking test. It often happens to me, locking the rear in the wet when I'm emergency braking.




If your brave enough to want to practice in the wet, its rear brake then front (you need to squat the bike not dive it).
Could you explain that in more detail? I've only ever heard to use the front brake fractionally before the rear. As I understand it, if you use the rear first, when you apply the front brake it transfers the weight onto the front and off the rear which can make the rear skid if you don't ease off the pressure on the back brake.





Personally I dont believe in covering brake levers. The time it takes you to move your hand over the lever and squeeze it is long enough for your brain to realise what its about to do and adjust for it. You'll also find by not covering you'll automatically guage the correct braking force and use the correct number of fingers for the application (which kind of solves that debate) - a technique that is usefull on the track.

If you cover, you'll likely use the 'panic vice grip' which will lock the bike and dump you on the ground. Anyhow, if youre that close to hitting something - doesnt matter how hard you squeeze the lever, you'll hit it anyhow - no bike can stop in more than 1/10th of a second if they are moving faster than 10mph.

Thats my opinion anyhow :)

I've gotta disagree. Riding in Auckland traffic, I think it's essential to cover your brake lever. The fraction of a second that it takes to back off the throttle, move your fingers out from under the brake lever and then grip the lever to start braking could be the difference between stopping or not stopping in time.

I had a bit of a scare a month or two ago lanesplitting and didn't notice a car that was turning through the traffic into a driveway until it was too late. I was covering my brakes, but with only my first two fingers on the brake lever, and I wasn't able to stop in time. Luckily the driver saw me and stopped pulling across.
After that I went and practiced a bit of emergency braking and I've since switched to braking with all four fingers because on my bike, I think you need it. It would be nice to be able to use just two fingers though, because throttle control is easier and it feels like there's less chance of my hand coming off the bar.

DingDong
2nd July 2005, 16:03
How I do it: beachracing (NZ), you go hard out 200+ and grab your front then your rear (same motion) spinning the rear (not complete lock) so it kicks out and pushing your wieght over the front for max load and slightly locking the front in a pulse.
You might think its not the same as the road but I can assure you its not far off. The only thing you need to watch for is flipping the bike forward as I've seen many times.

Its an auto thing for me now... and save my bacon a couple of times:)

TonyB
2nd July 2005, 17:45
If anyone is planning on full on braking on the road, just make reeeaaaal sure there's nothing behind you. I did it once a while after passing a Hilman Avenger (of all things) I had been maintaining a highish speed, I checked both mirrors, pulled across to the left a bit, and slammed on the anchors HARD. The avenger flew past me having to take evasive action- made the heart rate increase a bit....

Ixion
2nd July 2005, 18:07
..
Personally I dont believe in covering brake levers. The time it takes you to move your hand over the lever and squeeze it is long enough for your brain to realise what its about to do and adjust for it. You'll also find by not covering you'll automatically guage the correct braking force and use the correct number of fingers for the application (which kind of solves that debate) - a technique that is usefull on the track.

If you cover, you'll likely use the 'panic vice grip' which will lock the bike and dump you on the ground. Anyhow, if youre that close to hitting something - doesnt matter how hard you squeeze the lever, you'll hit it anyhow - no bike can stop in more than 1/10th of a second if they are moving faster than 10mph.

Thats my opinion anyhow :)

..

I agree. I don't cover normally because I find if I do I tend to go "Oh shit grab grab grab". Uncovered the fraction of a second gives me time to go "Oh shit ... evaluate ". Which also means that sometimes I don't brake at all, I evade. I'd always rather steer out of danger than try to brake out of danger.

Only time I cover is in low speed traffic where I'm actually just waiting for something to happen.

TwoSeven
2nd July 2005, 22:19
The riding in the wet bit is rather odd for many because lots of people dont see much rain.

Normally your dry braking will be something like 75/25 front/rear distribution. When you hit the front brake you load it up and the rear end becomes lighter. The weight going to the front causes the front suspension to 'dive'. This is ideal for the dry and a good rider will also learn to sample the braking as it progresses.

In the wet if you do that [front/rear] it increases the chance of skidding and dumping the bike (think you have a contact patch a few mm across that now has water between it and the road).

So, what you do is you apply the rear brake first (not hard) so that the bike squats (it causes the rear to drag), then apply the front brake to do the slowing down. Since the bike has squatted rather than dived, the braking distribution becomes 50/50 rather than 75/25. The chasis also settles much more.

Because the braking technique takes slightly longer, you must also reduce your speed more as compared to the dry in order to give all this extra time to happen.

Squatting a bike is also a technique used for stability.

You can observe it happening if you watch last weeks motoGP. Keep a careful eye on the back of the fairing just under the chain and before the rear wheel (where the shock is). When the rider dabs the rear brake without the front you will see the bike almost fold in half like a big V. When they they apply the front, you'll see the whole bike squat - your more likely to see it happen out of some corners. You'll only really see it from side on shots.

You can get it to happen as well if you stomp on the rear doing 10mph (no faster - it has to be slow). Feels like you just broke the bike and you'll hear a big clonk as it snaps back).

For wet weather braking, folding it like that is too hard, your just applying it gently then squeezing both together.

Another thing is that you should never be braking with the clutch in. It will cause the rear to lock and skid. Close the throttle instead - you should only bring the clutch in when you hear the engine revs drop as the bike starts to stall.

The final bit is that all braking should be done only when the bike is verticle (never when the bike is leaned over).

The techniques are mentioned by Gary Jeahrne in his 'sport biking' book - he talks about settling the chassis using the rear brake. Kenny Roberts mentions it in his old book, and the old 'uk police riders book' also talks about braking technique. I have a feeling code mentions it too - but couldnt find a reference while I was just looking.

justsomeguy
2nd July 2005, 23:05
Lots of good tips...... all I can say is practice......

and practice - and practice -

The wobbles that the front tyre makes under hard mid corner braking can be a bit scary - but you get used to it.....

The wet weather behaviour...... well I crashed - so I know all about not jumping on the front brake in the wet......:whistle: . wish I knew that (TwoSeven's advice) earlier......

Practice - practice - pract-

FROSTY
3rd July 2005, 00:48
Ya know the problem with having a bunch of book knowledge for a beginnner -or relatively begginner rider is actually putting it into practice.
Im working on the principle of Keep It Simple Stupid.
Take complicated concepts and break em down in a way learner riders can understand.
What I see far too often is people in overload mode .
They simply freeze because they dont remember which of the million bits of advise to follow.
Practice is the only way to solve that problem.
I cannot dissagree more with the assertion that on a normal piece or road that you will suddenly skid if you brake hard in the wet .
That simply is not true.
But without brakeing practice in the dry first -to load up the front tyre you may very well skid in the wet.
That is part of the whole practice thing.

TwoSeven
3rd July 2005, 11:52
I think that in order to get the modicum of skill that is required for safe riding, you need to be taught it by another skilled individual who will show the correct way of doing things.

You can read stuff, but you only have to mis-interprete one thing incorrectly and you may pick up a bad habbit that can be with you for a long time - potentially causing grief.

Infortunately, the only way everyone is put in a position to be shown the ideal way of doing these things is when they get their license, and driver-ed classes (for motorcycles) are just not done here. Its scratch and win followed by a half hour wobble round the block.

The compulsory teaching of newbie motorcyclists to a minimum approved standard of safety would probably be one thing that a government would get my vote on. I also think people should be made to do a refresher if they are involved in an injury related accident and wish to continue to ride (they do this with cars at the moment).

FROSTY
3rd July 2005, 12:09
Which Takes us back to square one.
Either the system needs a total change--compulsary riding schools.--
Ya know 20 some years ago you would get your licence quicker if you attended the coca cola riding school.
Thanks to our friggin namby pamby protect people from themselves goverment an instructor can be sued for damages if a student gets hurt.
So all that can be done is offer advise for new riders to follow.
Keep it really simple and make sure they only practice one thing at a time.

XP@
3rd July 2005, 16:11
Yup, Braking well needs Practice.
I have heard it said that "Practice Makes Permanent" but with braking IMHO you need to keep practicing.

Knowing the BIG difference between a Panic Stop and Maximum Effort Braking is the first step in being able to stop. Panic Stops involve jamming on the brakes, anyone can do this (even FROSTYs Chimp on the Hybusa). Maximum Effort involves getting all the braking out of your brakes you can't do this without practice.

I try and find a carpark every 6 months or so to do some handling and braking practice. Apart from that If I get chance on the road I do an occasional, planned, max effort stop.

I would disagree with the argument that you should not cover your brakes. If you are practiced at braking properly then a panic stop is not an option. So when the situation is looking slightly dubious you should cover both levers, just in case. slightly more duboius and I show the brake light. The more time you spend thinking at your higher speed, the more distance you will cover. So start braking as soon as possible this way you will have a lot more time / distance in hand. If you have your fingers on the brake then your reaction time should be about 0.21 seconds, hands on the grips, 0.45 seconds... at 100kph this is 6 meters if there is a car in that last 6 meters then you will be wishing your hands were on the brakes.

Beemer
3rd July 2005, 17:29
I used to practise braking on quiet roads when I was learning to ride so I wouldn't be scared of what happens when you brake. I used to quite enjoy it and I never did have any fear of braking hard when I needed to. It does take practise though, and doing a Stay Upright cornering and braking course reinforced my knowledge. There was one woman there though, who I really worried about. She was petrified of braking - they start you off braking at a very slow speed then build it up to 100kph but she started crying and refused to even try it at 30kph. That was bad enough, but she was riding a BMW F650GS and going home from the course over the Para Paras! I was amazed that she was so scared of braking - she had obviously been riding for a while to have a 650, yet she wouldn't even try braking. The instructors took her aside and offered to give her some one-on-one training but she wouldn't even do that. I hope she is still alive and riding because I really did have my doubts that she would cope in an emergency if she had to brake at high speed.

crazyxr250rider
3rd July 2005, 18:44
I used to practise braking on quiet roads when I was learning to ride so I wouldn't be scared of what happens when you brake. I used to quite enjoy it and I never did have any fear of braking hard when I needed to. It does take practise though, and doing a Stay Upright cornering and braking course reinforced my knowledge. There was one woman there though, who I really worried about. She was petrified of braking - they start you off braking at a very slow speed then build it up to 100kph but she started crying and refused to even try it at 30kph. That was bad enough, but she was riding a BMW F650GS and going home from the course over the Para Paras! I was amazed that she was so scared of braking - she had obviously been riding for a while to have a 650, yet she wouldn't even try braking. The instructors took her aside and offered to give her some one-on-one training but she wouldn't even do that. I hope she is still alive and riding because I really did have my doubts that she would cope in an emergency if she had to brake at high speed.
Wha? 30kph you must be kidding! dont quite see why braking could be so be so frightening

TwoSeven
3rd July 2005, 21:34
I suppose this is where I say I once fell of a Honda pasola for attempting to change gear on wet grass.

Like how did I know it was an automatic - I was only 7. Looked like a clutch lever to me at the time :)

Ixion
3rd July 2005, 22:42
..
I would disagree with the argument that you should not cover your brakes. If you are practiced at braking properly then a panic stop is not an option. So when the situation is looking slightly dubious you should cover both levers, just in case. ..

I would distinguish covering when things look dubious from covering at all times. If you've analysed the situation to the point where you've concluded it's dubious, you will already have worked out responses. If braking is one of them, when the moment comes it WON'T be unexpected.

justsomeguy
4th July 2005, 00:57
The BRONZ course was a great answer to all the concerns raised......

Unfortunately - we had that little efing blaardy rott3n incident and I'm not sure if/when we can reschedule the rest of the course.

They teach you in detail - lines around corners, BRAKING, emerergency stops -- a whole lot of superb stuff -

But as the good Frosty said - KISS - and practice.

Oh yeah - and make sure you maintain your brakes(liquid, pads) and have good tyres.....

erik
4th July 2005, 02:09
I would distinguish covering when things look dubious from covering at all times....


I dunno, I don't think there is much difference between the two when commuting in auckland... ;)

But on the open road I agree, covering the brake at all times isn't helpful.

John
4th July 2005, 02:18
well myself, I cover clutch and front brake - it has payed off on more than 2 accounts on the open road, also probably saved my life in my last bin to...
But what ever you feel comfortable with really, oh practice - it helps I normally "practise" every day, on a "slow safe ride"...

Kwaka-Kid
4th July 2005, 07:01
I say brake, brake hard, and brake hard on front only!

I used to use some rear for wet racing/riding, but now have found i have not ever touched the rear brake on the FZR400, and not on an NC30 for a good 9 odd months.

My theory - you should be/able to, brake so hard on the front that the rear is 5mm off the ground yes? thats optimum braking... well optimum would be 0.01mm off the ground, as you have less of the bike starting to rotate around the front wheel, so are getting max braking on front, and the rear brake is rendered useless.

Easy to talk about, obviously incredibly hard to hold the rear just off the ground for your whole period of braking. However if you get into the habbit and keep hoaning your front braking skills, then the least u get to is that your braking so hard on the front, that even a minor touch of the rear (any more then low-revv engine braking) will lock it up and send you into panic mode-which is also why i dont bother with high RPM deceleration of the engine (also because its f-ing bad for her!-amoung the worst things you can do correct?)

Meh - just my 2c, and of course this is all braking in a straight line, it must be. In the dry you can get away with minor tilt into a corner whilst holding some front braking but you should have planned it well enough to be easing off the front brakes as you are tipping in, hereby keeping the front squatted and well settled - also sharpening your steering head angle to make her tip in easier.

in the wet? well i bet youd be surprised at how hard you can brake in the wet, even on production tyres, keeping the bike dead straight im fairly confident you can brake just as hard - look @ TS @ manfield the other weekend, braking @ same distances as in dry.

Who knows? maybe thats all wrong, but its worked for me so far!
take care all.

unhingedlizard
4th July 2005, 09:32
I dont use the back brake much either. save on gravel. I also cover alot. Big hands help.

XP@
4th July 2005, 10:29
I say brake, brake hard, and brake hard on front only!
:no:
NO! NO! NO! NO!

This being the case why do all road based tests i have seen show improved stopping distances when both brakes?

With the front fully loaded on a normal road you are risking big time problems with washing out your front.

According to recent research the most effective way to apply the brakes is as follows:


Front
Clutch
Rear

Milliseconds after your front goes on you start with the clutch. The rear you can start to apply on from the beginning.

Once the rear brake is on, forget about it, If it locks then so what? You are looking where you are going a locked back brake will have negligable effect. You also can't effectivly concentrate on more than one thing at a time so pay attention to the front brake.

Even with a Max effort stop you should go through a progressive amount of preasure.

Start - small amount of brake initiates the compression of the forks and weight change to the front
harder - gradually applying the brake not too hard too fast
Modulate - Full on stopping power your front will be trying to stop turning, release a little and re-apply keeping the front almost stopped


Edit: Forgot to mention, don't bother changing down during a max effort stop, it will detract from the delicate task of using the front brake.

vifferman
4th July 2005, 10:31
Only 16 repetitions to make something an automatic habit? I'd read it was more like 30.... :spudwhat:

A lot depends on your bike, and I've found I've had to slightly re-learn braking technique for each one.
On the VFR750, I used to brake mostly with the front, but used the back brake to settle the bike before corners or before braking hard.
I used to use the rear brake on the FahrtSturm only when going slowly in traffic, or as a rudder when doing slow-speed turns. It was such an ineffectual brake that it didn't help much for anything else.
With the VifFerraRi, and its linked brakes, everything changed, and it took me a few weeks to get used to the brakes.
If the road surface is very dodgy, like after light rain, I use only the back brake below about 40 km/h, as it gives nice balanced braking, with 2/3 of the back pistons, and 1/3 of the front ones, and doesn't transfer weight drastically. You can stand on it quite hard without any "oh shit!" moments, and in fact, unlike every other bike I've owned, it stops very well using only the pedal.
As there isn't a huge amount of dive with application of either front/back brake, there's no need to settle the bike by using the back brake first, so most of the time during normal riding, I use only the front brake. For braking very hard, use of both is essential, as it uses all brake pistons (6 in front, 3 in the back).

I don't generally cover the brakes, except when riding in stop/go traffic, in which case I cover both the front lever and the rear brake pedal. I never use more than 2 fingers (and often only one), as I have more control with modulating brake pressure, and a better grip of the bars. I've done this for so long that four fingers feels too awkward. The one time recentlyish that I used four fingers for braking hard, I fell on my head.

Occasionally I'll practice things like emergency braking, braking in corners (no problem), emergency avoidance, etc., but must admit I probably need to spend some real time doing this (unless daily commuting in D'Auckland traffic counts).

When a car pulled out on me unexpectedly recently, I have no idea what I did, but I came to a stop safely, so in my reflexive response I must've done something right. The previous time I was in a similar situation, I 'froze' and went WHAM!! I have no desire to repeat that experience.:no:

XP@
4th July 2005, 12:39
The Promocycle (http://www.promocycle.com) site is where to look.

The studies appear to be valid and basically the answer is to use both brakes.

Promocycle.com (http://www.promocycle.com)

Braking systems (PDF) (http://www.promocycle.com/freinage_a.pdf)
Reaction Times (PDF) (http://www.promocycle.com/evalfrein_e.pdf)
Task analysis of intensive braking (PDF) (http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf)


I have also added these links to the Links sticky Here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=257574#post257574)

TwoSeven
4th July 2005, 13:03
I say brake, brake hard, and brake hard on front only!

My theory - you should be/able to, brake so hard on the front that the rear is 5mm off the ground yes? thats optimum braking... well optimum would be 0.01mm off the ground, as you have less of the bike starting to rotate around the front wheel, so are getting max braking on front, and the rear brake is rendered useless.



I would agree with having the ability to do this, but I'd suggest you may want to take another look at your suspension and set it up properly.

Still, I don't mind the rear being in the air and bouncing a bit. :)

TwoSeven
4th July 2005, 13:05
:no:

Front
Clutch
Rear



Sorry, have to blatently disagree with the use of the clutch at all when hard braking. No-way i'm going to take the load off the rear wheel so it skids. It isnt a dirt bike its a road bike we are talking about. :)

Stroker Girl
4th July 2005, 13:33
I'm a bit confused about the whole clutch issue too, as when I did my learner course at John Wright he told us to emergency brake as described by XP. Front, Clutch, Rear.

Since then I've had other advice to just avoid the rear and go for the front, no clutch either! Maybe it's more a matter of finding the most suitable & effective braking method for yourself and your bike and practicing it?

XP@
4th July 2005, 13:34
Sorry, have to blatently disagree with the use of the clutch at all when hard braking. No-way i'm going to take the load off the rear wheel so it skids. It isnt a dirt bike its a road bike we are talking about. :)
Read the study "Task Analysis of Intensive braking" (especially page 9)

justsomeguy
4th July 2005, 14:09
Maybe it's more a matter of finding the most suitable & effective braking method for yourself and your bike and practicing it?

That's the one :niceone:

Ixion
4th July 2005, 14:24
Read the study "Task Analysis of Intensive braking" (especially page 9)

Yeah, I read that. Pity though that they didn't do any tests on a wet road, or an oily one. Stopping on a dry good seal surface is not too big an ask, even if the front does get twitchy you usually have a fraction of a second to ease it off. On wet/oily surface it's monumentally harder.

And I suspect that the rear brake / engine loading (ie don't declutch) may have more of a role to play under those conditions.If so I'd prefer to keep doing it the same way always, cos I don't want to have to have two conditioned responses.

TwoSeven
4th July 2005, 15:06
Read the study "Task Analysis of Intensive braking" (especially page 9)

I prefer to take the advice of the uk police rider training school. :)

Edit:
The reason why I say this (from being told), is because the UK police performed the same tests about 20 years ago (and also fairly recently). What they found was the stopping distance only varied by a small amount (in the case of your study about one meter was observed).

What they also found, is that over a large percentage of riders emergency braking who used the clutch were more likely to lose control of their machines, than those that didnt lock the rear wheel.

They also found that riders who pulled in the clutch and locked the rear also suffered even worse in the wet and/or icy conditions with riders most commonly dumping the bike on the side and then sliding some distance (its the old right hand crash rule). The police also have the benefit from investigating lots of crashes :)

So they decided that not pulling in the clutch meant the rider had the most control over the machine in the widest range of conditions.

----
Your study doesnt take that into account.

FROSTY
4th July 2005, 15:27
Folks there are some fairly huge advances been made in tyre,suspension technology in the last 5 years.
Bikes are now able to stop as well in the wet as they used to in the dry
In a semi controlled situation (semi emergency) braking hard I am going to first change down a gear then apply a touch of rear brake at the same time as Im applying the first of my front brake which is settling the bike from its previous coasting or accelerating state. I have also loaded up the suspension and front tyre by applying front brake I am then progressively applying more front brake and less rear brake untill I reach the point I have no rear brake applied. That will opperate be it wet or dry. The only variation is when and for how long the percentage of brakes is applied for.

Motu
4th July 2005, 16:18
Folks there are some fairly huge advances been made in tyre,suspension technology in the last 5 years.
Bikes are now able to stop as well in the wet as they used to in the dry
.

Try doing it on DOT knobs,my dry weather braking is like your wet weather braking...my wet weather braking would be like you riding on ice.I really live from the feed back from my tyres.

vifferman
4th July 2005, 16:27
What they also found, is that over a large percentage of riders emergency braking who used the clutch were more likely to lose control of their machines, than those that didnt lock the rear wheel.
Probably not illogical, when you think about it.

When you pull the clutch in, any stabilising effect from the gyroscopic action of the engine rotating is minimised, and you've also lost any drag from engine braking, no matter how slight or ineffectual.

XP@
4th July 2005, 16:33
What they also found, is that over a large percentage of riders emergency braking who used the clutch were more likely to lose control of their machines, than those that didnt lock the rear wheel.


That sounds very plausable, will have a practice without the clutch.

Do you know of any published studies supporting increased number of crashes with use of clutch? because if this is the case then I will definatly re-think / re-learn breaking.

Also should watch the "than those that didnt lock the rear wheel" because there are some bikers out there who use the rear brake only. These temporary dudes will lock the back wheel and probably crash. now if the stats are not properly presented the wrong result will apply.

When you come to a stop you will stall unless the clutch is pulled in. when is this normally done?

There is still a risk of locking the rear brake, if the wheel is still being driven and the brake is released would the risk of instability be greater than if the clutch was pulled in?

Interesting debate :yes:

Beemer
4th July 2005, 16:48
And don't forget many bikes have ABS now so locking up your brakes isn't going to happen.

The thing everyone should take from this thread is to practise braking - you practise everything else you do, so why not braking?

As for the women who wouldn't brake at 30kph, man I hope she's still alive and got over her fear.

TwoSeven
4th July 2005, 17:53
That sounds very plausable, will have a practice without the clutch.

Do you know of any published studies supporting increased number of crashes with use of clutch? because if this is the case then I will definatly re-think / re-learn breaking.


No idea on studies, just how it was explained to me - also how I was tought when I did my rider trainin for the brit license.

Just try it at a slow speed first (10km/hr), remember to shut the throttle and then apply the brakes, also pull in the clutch when you hear the engine noise drop to stall.

I used to have the habbit of linking the clutch to the throttle (because of gear changes). So when I shut the throttle I always pulled in the clutch.

Not til recently have I mastered independant usage of clutch and throttle.

FROSTY
4th July 2005, 19:52
I used to have the habbit of linking the clutch to the throttle (because of gear changes). So when I shut the throttle I always pulled in the clutch.
Not til recently have I mastered independant usage of clutch and throttle.
Holey shit batman --Now I understand :weird:
So you actually have limited actual riding experience and are simply parroting other people.
Ok then as MOTU covered off his bike /tyre combination means he is a lot more tentative on brakes than I am.
So lets go deeper into the braking situation -
A 75kg rider on lets say a KZ440 , a cbr600 or a harley hardtail
In theory all three bikes start out with around a 50/50 weight distribution
OR DO THEY?? --a modern sports bike unlaiden has a load bias already to the front. -around 55/45 Add to that a rider who is loading up the handlebars and so the front end even more and you right away have the front brakes ability improved.Add to that multi piston calipers and high quality tyres and you barely need a rear brake
The kZ440--neutral riding position 50/50 weight loading. -single front disk with a single piston caliper.drum rear brake -that combination will mean you need to use both brakes to stop. add to that they are usually fitted with commuter type tyres.Yep heavy front brakes could very well cause a skid.

TwoSeven
4th July 2005, 21:10
haha.. no - getting close to 30 odd years or riding now - although the bones this winter feel like 90 years :)

The clutch thing is because i'm a lazy sod and its an old bad habbit - I finally got round to doing something about it. I suspect if you looked at your bad habbits you'd find a few. Do you constantly work at sorting them out ?

I have my 600 set up for a 60/40 weight bias - personal preference (it has rather good nissin calipers with a carbon/alloy HH pad), the old 250 used to be stock (twin disc/HH EBC green). Both bikes are/were set up for a 90kg rider and I dont load the bars (I have RSI, so cant hold on for heavy braking - hence I have to use finesse over brawn).

Even riding bikes with 6-pot AP calipers, I still use the rear - its just a matter of having a brake that works and knowing how to adjust your suspension properly as well as to work the chassis to get it settled. You should know how to do all this - you race - or do I detect some m&m avoidance happening here :)

FROSTY
4th July 2005, 21:37
I hate chocolate.
So You will be paying me in starburst babys.
It is unfair to advise a less experienced biker of how to brake based apon an issue in your life.
The idea is to get the bike stopped or slowed down as fast as possible

XP@
4th July 2005, 22:32
No idea on studies, just how it was explained to me - also how I was tought when I did my rider trainin for the brit license.

Just try it at a slow speed first (10km/hr), remember to shut the throttle and then apply the brakes, also pull in the clutch when you hear the engine noise drop to stall.

I used to have the habbit of linking the clutch to the throttle (because of gear changes). So when I shut the throttle I always pulled in the clutch.

Not til recently have I mastered independant usage of clutch and throttle.
Sitting here with a BIG smile on my face...
This is not just because I sorted the backfiring issue, there is also the "Test ride" i've just been on. Round the paramatta inlet with no other traffic :devil2:

Paying a little attention to what i was doing I noticed that braking for corners I didn't consider pulling in the clutch. This was dispite me braking hadrer than normal.

Anyway, I decided to have a few practices(10km/h to 1?0km/h). first without the clutch then with the clutch. At first I didn't feel much difference maybe a bit more stability without the clutch and a little faster braking with it. There is also the last second thought required to pull the cluch in if it is not already in.

The major difference came when I locked the rear when i hadn't pulled the clutch in. Guess what the bike stalled so carefully i released the back brake, effectively bump starting the bike. I'm not sure I would like to be having to deal with this in a real situation.

So I think I will continue to use the clutch in maximum effort stopping because...

Applying both brakes and clutch in one fluid motion is easy
The effects of engine braking are negated when you use the back brake
Gyro effects are minimal when compared to the mass/motion of the bike
Engine should still be running at the end of the emergency

XP@
4th July 2005, 22:37
And don't forget many bikes have ABS now so locking up your brakes isn't going to happen.
never ridden a bike with ABS, from what i understand you still have to brake progressively, to make sure you get the weight to the front and get the traction you need... anyone help here?


The thing everyone should take from this thread is to practise braking - you practise everything else you do, so why not braking?
"Practice makes Permanent" both for good habits and bad habits.


As for the women who wouldn't brake at 30kph, man I hope she's still alive and got over her fear.
Ditto!

Ixion
4th July 2005, 22:46
never ridden a bike with ABS, from what i understand you still have to brake progressively, to make sure you get the weight to the front and get the traction you need... anyone help here?



Yes, ABS won't do the braking for you. You still need to keep the bike balanced, and load the front . Only difference is that if you don't instead of the front locking, you just won't slow down much.

But it DOES mean you don't have to worry about locking the front in the wet, and can devote the concentration that otherwise you would have to devote to the state of the front tyre's grip, to other things, like finding an evasion hole.

I think it's very good

Beemer
4th July 2005, 23:50
The first week I had the Beemer a stupid woman in a van decided to do a U-turn in front of me as I turned into a side street but because the street was narrow, it became at least a three-point turn. I'd never used ABS before and just braked as I would normally and found it really did feel very smooth. I came to a complete stop and avoided hitting her, so I like it!

The Goose doesn't have it, but it does have what appear to be very good brakes, so I'll just keep on doing what I've been doing so far - it's kept me out of trouble to this point in my life!

XP@
11th July 2005, 09:57
Over the weekend I realised another (obvious?) factor in stopping distance.
How warm your tyres are, makes a big difference.
I went to the local school carpark (about .5 km away) to have a play. When I first got there my front was locking really easily, then as my tyre warmed up the traction increased by a fair bit.

Don't know how much bearing this has on the stats but they say most accidents happen within a few km's of your home. After this realisation I will make sure I have a little more space until tyres are warmed up.

Ixion
11th July 2005, 13:19
Over the weekend I realised another (obvious?) factor in stopping distance.
How warm your tyres are, makes a big difference.
I went to the local school carpark (about .5 km away) to have a play. When I first got there my front was locking really easily, then as my tyre warmed up the traction increased by a fair bit.

Don't know how much bearing this has on the stats but they say most accidents happen within a few km's of your home. After this realisation I will make sure I have a little more space until tyres are warmed up.

Yes - and in the rain they will take a lot longer to warm up.

magnum
19th July 2005, 15:57
do a braking sesion at a trackday to learn,or get some cones and practise with ya mates. :ride:

XP@
29th August 2005, 22:46
Just fresh from the TSS Rider Development and woh, I was a little surprised to find that they teach changing down as part of the max effort stop.

The stop consissts of 5 tasks
1. throttle off
2. front brake
3. clutch
4. rear brake
5. change down

The first 3 I was ok with
the rear brake I was way too heavy, and needed a bit of practice to stop it locking

When I tried to add number 5 every thing went to pot. My attention was diverted from the front brake. However over a few practices the stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp became a bit more automatic. with a lot more practice I think i should be able to complete a stop in first without thinking. Definatly the way to go!

Pancakes
15th September 2005, 16:50
My car driving improved heaps when I bought an old FWD rally car off a guy that had been road registered and he showed me how to drive on gravel. It's the same technique as snowboarding or cycling or motorbikes. Stay loose, don't rebound shock all around the system, let each bit do it's job. When things feel hairy, telling myself to loosen up normally does the trick.

FROSTY
15th September 2005, 22:25
Well ABS on bike --does it work--well I must say --shit yea.
1.5km ride to a servo to pump the tyres up on the FJ --idiot pulls out and I hit the picks -tyres were a tadd low and woooaaa clack clack on goes the abs
This is 1km after picking the beast up