72 year old gt grandmother prosecuted for wagger

[PrincessBandit]

I read in total disbelief that an old lady is being prosecuted for having a 13 year old in her care who is a persistent wagger. The further down the article I read (even trying to account for possible 'over sensationalism' of the issue) the more saddened I was.

Gist of the article: 72 year old great grandmother, who is not even claiming to be the legal guardian of the girl, is being prosecuted because the teenager refuses to go to school. She has apparently tried everything she can to get this girl to attend but to no avail.

Anyone else think that there is a lack of discretion in this particular case? (even if there are more issues going on than aired). Even parents can have a hard enough time with their kids and school attendance if the kid is determined to wag - and with a lot of schools really cracking down on truancy now with texting home that little so-and-so is "not present in class this morning" heaps of parents may not have even really known their kids were wagging.

Yes, there are cases of parent-condoned truancy - one of my friends was terrible for this. Any little excuse to let her many children stay home and she was writing notes to make up some reason why they "had" to stay home from school. In the case of this elderly woman in the article though she certainly doesn't seem to fit into that category and yet she's being blamed for a strong willed teen who is being totally uncooperative. There was no reason given as to why this girl refused to attend school e.g. maybe she is bullied etc. and has a valid reason why she won't go. But even so, if the care -giver has tried everything they can to resolve the issue and the student still digs in is prosecuting the guardian/parent/care-giver really going to solve anything??? I think not, except to place even great burden and feeling of failure on the part of an otherwise responsible adult.

And yes, I also know of students who would (for their own self-centred, self-absorbed, vindictive reasons) find it hugely amusing that this could happen.

[oneofsix]

I read in total disbelief that an old lady is being prosecuted for having a 13 year old in her care who is a persistent wagger. The further down the article I read (even trying to account for possible 'over sensationalism' of the issue) the more saddened I was.

Gist of the article: 72 year old great grandmother, who is not even claiming to be the legal guardian of the girl, is being prosecuted because the teenager refuses to go to school. She has apparently tried everything she can to get this girl to attend but to no avail.

Anyone else think that there is a lack of discretion in this particular case? (even if there are more issues going on than aired). Even parents can have a hard enough time with their kids and school attendance if the kid is determined to wag - and with a lot of schools really cracking down on truancy now with texting home that little so-and-so is "not present in class this morning" heaps of parents may not have even really known their kids were wagging.
I note she is being prosecuted for keeping the child from school, in a just world that would mean the Ministry of Education would have to prove that the great granny had been active in preventing the kid from going to school or at least encouraging her not to go to school.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/5155569/Pensioner-prosecuted-after-girl-wags-school
Yes, there are cases of parent-condoned truancy - one of my friends was terrible for this. Any little excuse to let her many children stay home and she was writing notes to make up some reason why they "had" to stay home from school. In the case of this elderly woman in the article though she certainly doesn't seem to fit into that category and yet she's being blamed for a strong willed teen who is being totally uncooperative. There was no reason given as to why this girl refused to attend school e.g. maybe she is bullied etc. and has a valid reason why she won't go. But even so, if the care -giver has tried everything they can to resolve the issue and the student still digs in is prosecuting the guardian/parent/care-giver really going to solve anything??? I think not, except to place even great burden and feeling of failure on the part of an otherwise responsible adult.

And yes, I also know of students who would (for their own self-centred, self-absorbed, vindictive reasons) find it hugely amusing that this could happen.

This is a law that has gone the way the anti-smacking one will. It was bought in to deal with the likes of your friend or the lazy shits that just couldn't be bothered to send their kids to school but is being enforced in the mistaken believe that the parent still has the majority control of a teenager. Studies have proven that during teenage years peers and out the home influences have more control. Anybody with half a brain (so that leaves out half the people here) would know that a 72 year old granny would have 0 control over a headstrong teenager.

[Maha]

I used to wag alot from High School.
Infact, my weekly class time table had periods that were croseds out for wagging.
The only to get point the finger at, was me.
Sure I got caned a couple of times which made me think twice at the time, but only for a day or two.

[Motig]

Hope the judge throws it out. Poor womans looked after 52 foster children and then gets this crap. Why would you bother.

[Laava]

Sure I got caned a couple of times which made me think twice at the time, but only for a day or two.

Was that at school? Or other places of "hangout"?

[scissorhands]

What about all the undiagnosed slightly autistics and ADHDers who just dont fit in the current paradigm, either are being bullied, or are bully's. Natural expression squashed and more repressed neurotic future addicts pumped out of the factory to not serve society, but be a drain through poor management:2thumbsup

Forcing round pegs in square holes? More of the same shit from stupid monkeys forcing conformity, not acknowledging difference, and creating future criminals. Why dont the morons wake the fuck up.

The birth mother who isnt around as caregiver, is prolly fucked up somewhere too, cost the tax payer a fortune. Not learning by mistakes are they?

School work death. Euthanase the little shits and make them all the same. Create a future with 100% the same group think work robots and see where that will get you

Sad that the little girl is not getting a decent education:(, and I'm not talking conventional schooling

[yungatart]

That is a sad indictment on our society, unfortunately.
Talk about putting the cart before the horse....:(

[oldrider]

This is my major gripe about the socialist "State owns everything" concept. (yes, even "your" children)

The State makes all the rules, tells parents how why when and what to do to raise the children, usurping all of the authority and making parents powerless in the children's eyes.

Then when all the socialist State theories go to shit, they hand the child responsibility back to the parent/family/etc and "blame them" for the failure! FFS!

The "State" (represented by people like Sue Bradford et al) is never wrong, when all else fails, just prosecute the Grandma that will do it every time!

Socialism ... all care taken, no responsibility, just make another law or rule that doesn't work and blame someone else! :brick:

[James Deuce]

It's the law. It's an arse, but it's the law.

We're in the shit with two of our kids because one has been properly sick a few times this year with hospital time and subsequent recovery time and the other has had the odd sick day (pneumonia twice). The "other" has had his teacher aides "repurposed" from time to time also, meaning he gets sent home and is reported, you guessed it, AWOL for a half day.

17 half days off and you get a letter from the School saying that they are watching you.

The truancy people are utter dicks too. They simply don't understand the difference between chronic and acute illness and are unable to see that when the school sends our kids home that it's not our fault or that we aren't somehow to blame.

You learn to deal with them in an off-hand and factual manner, but I do expect to be, if not prosecuted, forced into a conference with Police and Social Welfare some time this year.

Just remember, if they're from the Government and they say they're here to help, punch them in the ovaries or testicles and run away as fast as you can.

[oneofsix]

It's the law. It's an arse, but it's the law.

We're in the shit with two of our kids because one has been properly sick a few times this year with hospital time and subsequent recovery time and the other has had the odd sick day (pneumonia twice). The "other" has had his teacher aides "repurposed" meaning he gets sent home and is reported, you guessed it, AWOL for a half day.

The truancy people are utter dicks too. They simply don't understand the difference between chronic and acute illness and are unable to see that when the school sends our kids home that it's not our fault or that we aren't somehow to blame.

You learn to deal with them in an off-hand and factual manner, but I do expect to be, if not prosecuted, forced into a conference with Police and Social Welfare some time this year.

Just remember, if they're from the Government and they say they're here to help, punch them in the ovaries or testicles and run away as fast as you can.

now now as you say it is the law and like with the speed limits one must obey it to the letter no matter how stupid, counter productive, counter intuitive or dangerous it is. The law is the law. :Playnice: :corn:

[scissorhands]

The law is the law. :Playnice: :corn:

Niggers on buses?

Next they will forcing our heads down, our hands together, forcing us to our knees, forcing us to utter.......the KB national anthem. Its the law! Onward Christian soldiers, marching off to war.........

Its bad people management, plain and simple. Its like some despot regime that hasn't caught up with the modern world. Any company which treated its staff like this would go under in no time. oh wait

On ya Oldie, but I reckon capitalism is making the same mistakes as socialism, in not acknowledging neurological difference's in its citizens, and grossly fucking up by not making good use of future primary producers, designers, and thoughtful kids on a mission.

[oneofsix]

Niggers on buses?

Next they will forcing our heads down, our hands together, forcing us to our knees, forcing us to utter.......the KB national anthem. Its the law! Onward Christian soldiers, marching off to war.........

Its bad people management, plain and simple. Its like some despot regime that hasn't caught up with the modern world. Any company which treated its staff like this would go under in no time. oh wait

On ya oldie, but I reckon capitalism is making the same mistakes as socialism, in not acknowledging neurological difference's in its citizens, and making good use of future primary producers, designers, and thoughtful kids on a mission

Sorry dude but that was all posted tongue in cheek. I was having a poke at those that say the law is absolute.
BTW no matter what you the system, 'society' will always base it on the 'norm'. It does not matter that no one actually fits the exact 'norm' but when you melt all the abnormals together it the norm is the the classification you can get most people in or to agree with. If we were all the norm society would stagnate and never advance.

[scumdog]

I used to wag alot from High School.
Infact, my weekly class time table had periods that were croseds out for wagging.
The only to get point the finger at, was me.
Sure I got caned a couple of times which made me think twice at the time, but only for a day or two.

'crosed'??

Obviously spelling class was the one you wagged the most....:shifty::whistle:

[scissorhands]

'crosed'??

Obviously spelling class was the one you wagged the most....:shifty::whistle:

Obviously, the class most wagged, was English....:dodge:

......Hitcher??

[James Deuce]

Sorry dude but that was all posted tongue in cheek. I was having a poke at those that say the law is absolute.
BTW no matter what you the system, 'society' will always base it on the 'norm'. It does not matter that no one actually fits the exact 'norm' but when you melt all the abnormals together it the norm is the the classification you can get most people in or to agree with. If we were all the norm society would stagnate and never advance.
Que? You're subject to the law and can be charged and prosecuted if there is any reason to think that you should be. It's not optional and your little bit of waffle about Norm there is either drug induced or you've been hit in the head more often than I have.

The best hope in the Grandmother's case is it appears that the judge thinks this particular law is being applied inappropriately. The quotes from the judge in the Stuff article tend to indicate that the judge thinks that this particular law is an arse.

[Maha]

'crosed'??

Obviously spelling class was the one you wagged the most....:shifty::whistle:

Economics and PE from memory?

[Big Dave]

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bKyq3N1cVpg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Banditbandit]

This is my major gripe about the socialist "State owns everything" concept. (yes, even "your" children)

The State makes all the rules, tells parents how why when and what to do to raise the children, usurping all of the authority and making parents powerless in the children's eyes.

Then when all the socialist State theories go to shit, they hand the child responsibility back to the parent/family/etc and "blame them" for the failure! FFS!

The "State" (represented by people like Sue Bradford et al) is never wrong, when all else fails, just prosecute the Grandma that will do it every time!

Socialism ... all care taken, no responsibility, just make another law or rule that doesn't work and blame someone else! :brick:

I'm sorry but I think this (bullshit) law was passed by Anne Tolley and the National party ...

It's a bullshit law .. the Govt was told that and they (again) didn't listen ...
This is not the only case .. a solo mother was prosecuted a couple of months ago .. her son is Huge compared to her .. she has no chance of getting the shit to go to school .. and yet she was convicted and fined ..

Bullshit law ...

[Banditbandit]

Hope the judge throws it out. Poor womans looked after 52 foster children and then gets this crap. Why would you bother.

He can't toss it out .. he has to apply the law ... (whether it is bullshit or not ...)

[oldrider]

I'm sorry but I think this (bullshit) law was passed by Anne Tolley and the National party ...

It's a bullshit law .. the Govt was told that and they (again) didn't listen ...
This is not the only case .. a solo mother was prosecuted a couple of months ago .. her son is Huge compared to her .. she has no chance of getting the shit to go to school .. and yet she was convicted and fined ..

Bullshit law ...

OK, it doesn't matter which party the people I refer to belong to, they are all of the same ilk, just lurking behind different labels!

A rose by any name is but a rose ... bullshit by any other name is still bullshit!

You are so right our law is full of bullshit like this!

New Zealand is always subject to socialist law because it is basically a socialist country inhabited by socialist thinking people that elect socialist governments because that's what they demand of their politicians!

Don't blame the stupid government, blame the stupid people!

Our Politicians disguise themselves to look like what the voter will vote for, once they garner enough votes, they just pick others that are really just clones of themselves to call a majority and form a government!

And for the voters? .... game over for another three years! :doh: MMP FFS! :brick:

[scissorhands]

It think its one of those:

'no tolerance'
'make an example of someone controversial'
(aspergers boy stealing lightbulbs in ChCh)

things........... to send out a strong message to the general public that no one will be spared.

Next would be if your child said fuck,shit or cunt, you may be prosecuted for offensive language.

That type of thing may encourage better parenting, which I suppose is the intention of the lawmakers

[Paul in NZ]

Being prosecuted isnt the same as being convicted and as all ways I'm sure there is a significant back story here.

yeah we can bang on about the state owning everything wah wah wah BUT there are a fuck load of people out there expecting the state to fuckin do everything thing for them as well so they dont have to get off their arses and do the right thing. Couple that in with a shit load of people with some very firm ideas about alternative child rearing yet not giving a flying fuck about the rights of others who are daily harrassed and inconvienenced by their little monsters...

Somewhere in the middle is the poor old tax payer paying for the morons at one end and the extra officials at the other... They are the ones that should be pissed off...

OK - so the 13 year old wont go to school? It was crap parenting in the first 13 years that caused this and I wonder who did that?

And before you get sniffy - yes - one of my kids was a shitty disruptive kid at school and yes - we are still unravelling our mistakes....

[Paul in NZ]

Oh - as for all the stuff about aspergers etc etc. yeah its tough and yeah it varies HUGELY from school to school, area to area but frankly we have found the state to be fantastically supportive of our multiple issues grandson who lives with us.

Its not ideal but its working and considering its all done at no cost to us we are very grateful.

[pete376403]

OK - so the 13 year old wont go to school? It was crap parenting in the first 13 years that caused this and I wonder who did that?....

Probably the childs birth parents, but most unlikely the childs great grandmother (who is not even the childs legal guardian)

[Paul in NZ]

Maybe - hard to tell in some culture... The girl may have been with here a long time.

Anyway - the story has been update..

'Mr Wood said prosecutions were a last resort and were considered when the truancy was ongoing, unjustified, persistent, parent-condoned and when all other attempts to return the pupil to regular attendance had been unsuccessful. '

[Winston001]

)

The State makes all the rules, tells parents how why when and what to do to raise the children, usurping all of the authority and making parents powerless in the children's eyes.



This is a law that has gone the way the anti-smacking one will. It was bought in to deal with the likes of your friend or the lazy shits that just couldn't be bothered to send their kids to school...

1. Truancy has been unlawful for generations, this is nothing new. It hasn't been enforced much in the recent past.

2. If parents/guardians aren't ultimately responsible for their children...who is??

3. NZ has a serious problem with child neglect and abuse.

4. Completely contrary to the "nanny state" rants here, we actually don't have nearly enough public intervention in families.

5. In January 2011 the Minister was under such pressure she ordered a special enquiry into child abuse and some sad bleak cases have since come to light. http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/minister-orders-inquiry-into-serious-child-abuse-case-4003698

Including this one where the foster parents scrubbed the children with a wire brush - http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5089754/CYF-caregivers-accused-of-wire-brush-abuse






In the face of that, do you really think we interfere in families too much?!

[oldrider]

In the face of that, do you really think we interfere in families too much?!

Yes I do!

The offenders committed those crimes, deal with those individuals and deal with "their" individual crimes!

Don't label everyone and force everyone else to be subjected to measures applicable to these criminals FFS!

[Paul in NZ]

Yes I do!

The offenders committed those crimes, deal with those individuals and deal with "their" individual crimes!

Don't label everyone and force everyone else to be subjected to measures applicable to these criminals FFS!

Sorry - I'm confused... Isnt that what they are doing?

[oldrider]

Sorry - I'm confused... Isnt that what they are doing?

No, governments are just like school teachers, one kid commits are breach of rules so they apply a remedy across the board, punishing them all.

What we need is less government and someone with the balls to sort out those who need more, encouraging those that need less, to get on with their lives!

Maybe there are too many broken down school teachers in government!

[Spearfish]

What about all the undiagnosed slightly autistics and ADHDers who just dont fit in the current paradigm, either are being bullied, or are bully's. Natural expression squashed and more repressed neurotic future addicts pumped out of the factory to not serve society, but be a drain through poor management:2thumbsup

Forcing round pegs in square holes? More of the same shit from stupid monkeys forcing conformity, not acknowledging difference, and creating future criminals. Why dont the morons wake the fuck up.

The birth mother who isnt around as caregiver, is prolly fucked up somewhere too, cost the tax payer a fortune. Not learning by mistakes are they?

School work death. Euthanase the little shits and make them all the same. Create a future with 100% the same group think work robots and see where that will get you

Sad that the little girl is not getting a decent education:(, and I'm not talking conventional schooling

Bloody Nora....

[oneofsix]

No, governments are just like school teachers, one kid commits are breach of rules so they apply a remedy across the board, punishing them all.

What we need is less government and someone with the balls to sort out those who need more, encouraging those that need less, to get on with their lives!

Maybe there are too many broken down school teachers in government!

And lawyers (and self righteous bastards)

[Winston001]

Yes I do!

The offenders committed those crimes, deal with those individuals and deal with "their" individual crimes!

Don't label everyone and force everyone else to be subjected to measures applicable to these criminals FFS!

That's all very well John but dealing with abusive parents after the fact is far too late for the children.

The vast majority of people are not a problem and have nothing to fear. I'd have no hesitation inviting a social worker into our home every 3/6 months to check our children.

[Spearfish]

That's all very well John but dealing with abusive parents after the fact is far too late for the children.

The vast majority of people are not a problem and have nothing to fear. I'd have no hesitation inviting a social worker into our home every 3/6 months to check our children.



That would mean the nation has set a basic standard and could get tricky especially with the likes of Suet Bradford at the wheel of any social standard formation.

[oneofsix]

That's all very well John but dealing with abusive parents after the fact is far too late for the children.

The vast majority of people are not a problem and have nothing to fear. I'd have no hesitation inviting a social worker into our home every 3/6 months to check our children.

Depends how long 'after the fact' and how many times you leave it. Put your resources in to dealing with the individuals and the individual cases.

How do you feel about some do gooder deciding all motorcyclists are bad parents because they don't have a high enough regard for safety?

Having dealt with well meaning social workers who had got the wrong end of the stick and experience with the truth of the saying that all power corrupts I must declare I side with the oldrider.

[oldrider]

That's all very well John but dealing with abusive parents after the fact is far too late for the children.

The vast majority of people are not a problem and have nothing to fear. I'd have no hesitation inviting a social worker into our home every 3/6 months to check our children.

True, I don't disagree with opinion but "WHY" make laws that effect the "majority", when you only want to correct the behaviour of the "minority"?

I.E. Don't hit my Johnny just hit the boy next to him, that should be enough for my Johnny!

That's the mentality of our law, the minority get all the attention and otherwise good kids say WTF and go off the rails too!

If I am wrong, why is the tail wagging the dog in every facet of our society?

Because the tail gets all the attention and rewards, the dog gets fuck all and has to pay for it! :brick:

And in case you haven't noticed, the only real consistent growth industry in New Zealand is "CRIME"!

Where are these students of crime coming from?

From our otherwise crime-less majority! (Monkey see, monkey do)

[SPman]

Having dealt with well meaning social workers who had got the wrong end of the stick and experience with the truth of the saying that all power corrupts I must declare I side with the oldrider.

I know a Social worker who is neither social, nor a worker...I wouldn't let her be in charge of a kitchen spoon, let alone kid's lives and futures.

If a law is passed that leaves any room for discretion, sooner or later you'll get an authoritarian little wanker who will pursue it to it's inevitable end, no matter how much harm is caused, damage is done, or lives are wrecked!
Because - IT IS THE LAW!!


Just remember, if they're from the Government and they say they're here to help, punch them in the ovaries or testicles and run away as fast as you can.

[MSTRS]

I'd have no hesitation inviting a social worker into our home every 3/6 months to check our children.

I'd advise EXTREME caution in saying things like that.
How long did Peter Ellis spend inside because of social workers and their ilk?

[Winston001]

I suppose chaps I'm not afraid of the law or of the people who enforce it.

The usual complaint about social workers (CYFS) is "Why didn't they do something sooner??" Well if the perspectives expressed on KB are anything to go by, we may as well disband CYFS and just prosecute the few parents who get caught after Johnny is crippled or dead. Kahui twins murderer convicted??

If we cannot support social workers, teachers, doctors, relatives etc to take action then we're just going to see more dead kids. If you think that's an acceptable risk, ok. If you are scared of the police and childrens' services, in a free open democracy like NZ, then nothing I say can make any difference.

[MSTRS]

The problem with the likes of CYFS is that they wield an enormous amount of power. And they seldom, if ever, get involved, unless they believe there is a problem. Trouble is, in their minds they are there because there is a problem, so they then see problems that don't exist, or create them to suit.

[superman]

In Switzerland if your child turns up to school tired in some cantons the parents will be prosecuted. :scratch:

[oneofsix]

I suppose chaps I'm not afraid of the law or of the people who enforce it.

The usual complaint about social workers (CYFS) is "Why didn't they do something sooner??" Well if the perspectives expressed on KB are anything to go by, we may as well disband CYFS and just prosecute the few parents who get caught after Johnny is crippled or dead. Kahui twins murderer convicted??

If we cannot support social workers, teachers, doctors, relatives etc to take action then we're just going to see more dead kids. If you think that's an acceptable risk, ok. If you are scared of the police and childrens' services, in a free open democracy like NZ, then nothing I say can make any difference.

That "usual complaint" comes about due to the only view people generally have of CYFS, i.e. when something goes so wrong the kid ends up dead or dieing. And it is a fair question, what is wrong with the system where it spends so long poking its nose in where it doesn't belong and yet still refuses to act in cases where there is a clear and present danger to the child?

[Winston001]

And it is a fair question, what is wrong with the system where it spends so long poking its nose in where it doesn't belong and yet still refuses to act in cases where there is a clear and present danger to the child?

Fair enough. Can you give examples of CYFS poking their nose in where it doesn't belong? And also cases of refusing to act?

[MIXONE]

The poor CYFS workers have one of the hardest jobs out there and are damned if they do and damned if they don't.