Super city inner city trains!

[Kiwi Graham]

Listening the the mayor wanting an inner city train loop and a second harbour crossing, but cant afford both!

I'd prefer the second harbour crossing (either above or below the water) but instead of a train loop I'd like to see the city get a tram system similar in size or larger than Wellington. Clean and quiet and if on rails could be quite a visitor attraction.
It would or get rid or reduce one of the most dangerous, noisy, polluting vehicles off our roads ie buses!!

What say you?


Harbour crossing
Inner city train loop
Tram
Pedestrianise the whole friggin lot
Send the capital down to Chch for the rebuild

[White trash]

Ummmmmm, what trams? Maybe you mean electric busses?

[Ocean1]

Listening the the mayor wanting an inner city train loop and a second harbour crossing, but cant afford both!

Bollox. If you cut most of the non-esential spending you could have all of the above.

[Kiwi Graham]

Ummmmmm, what trams? Maybe you mean electric busses?

They would be less dirty and noisy, the romantic in me would like to see retro trams though.

Just get pissed off as a pedestrian getting completely drowned out with the noise and as a motorcyclist getting clouds of sooty exhaust belched at me. Lets not start on the quality of there driving but then again they would be the peeps driving the trams I guess.

[Kiwi Graham]

Bollox. If you cut most of the non-esential spending you could have all of the above.

Ahh but there are too many 'super' sized egos and agendas to groom for that to happen.

[merv]

You need the inner city loop for rapid moving of people in and out of the CBD and trams would be a good idea on the streets too to distribute people in the CBD and you need the rail crossing of the harbour as well. Ref ocean1's comment - maybe you should just afford it all and build a city for the future right now.

Most know how well Melbourne's tram system works and on all my recent travels especially to Zurich I soon came to the conclusion that the best cities of the world being the ones that really are alive in the CBD have one thing in common and that is steel rails through the streets.

There are buses in Zurich inlcuding trolley buses but they don't run down the main CBD streets at all, only the trams do. It is all incedibly liveable and people friendly and I always chuckle that my photos look just like I photographed a Marklin model train set it all looks so picture perfect. Take the diesels out of Auckland and you can do the same.

Retro trams are coming back to Auckland now but only on the Wynyard Quarter at the moment.

We spend too much time in this country arguing about what we are going to talk about for 20 years, then we argue about that for 20 years then we build too little too late and then say "see it never worked". Other countries just get on and build shit and continually surprise themselves by success . e.g the rail system in Perth Australia.

See pics: First one is part of Zurich - imagine if Quay Street looked like that. Second pic is of Bourke Street Mall in Melbourne - Queen Street could be like this with trams you can have flush roadways and people are happy to walk and intermingle. Compare that to Wellington's famous Manners Mall in your minds, it is now just a smelly bus lane with everyone cramped back onto the footpaths.

[Swoop]

Ummmmmm, what trams? Maybe you mean electric busses?
They have re-layed tram tracks around areas of the waterfront and borrowed (leased?) several old trams from Melbourne.

[jaffaonajappa]

What say you?


Harbour crossing
Inner city train loop
Tram
Pedestrianise the whole friggin lot
Send the capital down to Chch for the rebuild

1st, Chch.
2nd, 2nd Bridge.
3rd, inner city train / monorail.

[trustme]

It would be a bottomless money pit. We don't have the population density & the area is too large to make it work without massive subsidies.Most people do not work in the city centre, many of us rarely go to the city centre. I avoid it like the plague

[merv]

They have re-layed tram tracks around areas of the waterfront and borrowed (leased?) several old trams from Melbourne.

Yeah that is Auckland, WT was responding to the OP saying:

"I'd like to see the city get a tram system similar in size or larger than Wellington"

The only tram system near Wellington is the Museum at Paekak and otherwise maybe he meant the rather short cable car line going up to Kelburn. Or did he mean Wellington pre 1964 or whenever it was that it was pulled out? Auckland had one too until the 50's. All rather short sighted pulling them out when the love affair with buses started - diesel was king.

The revitalisation of city CBDs will need to come eventually in this country and they are not attractive now because we let the urban sprawl occur just like USA and Aussie before us so people like trustme don't go there. Rail systems help that revitalisation - just how long do we wait?

[Kiwi Graham]

It would be a bottomless money pit. We don't have the population density & the area is too large to make it work without massive subsidies.Most people do not work in the city centre, many of us rarely go to the city centre. I avoid it like the plague

The wife and I spent a couple of weekends in the city recently taking advantage of the cheap hotel deals going and catching a show etc.
Having a stole out and trying to take in the inner city buzz was completely nailed every time a bloody bus went past.

So maybe a subsidy would be needed to encourage people to us it initially, its got to be better than what we have got, it would add to our 100% pure image we are trying to hang on to too.

[mashman]

Calgary... Always thought, back in '97 I think, that it was a bloody good idea... the walkways between buildings where cool too.

http://stephenrees.files.wordpress.com/2006/09/calgary_transit_2011_7thave_2005_0713.jpg

[jaffaonajappa]

Can see this thread kinda merging with some 'how to rebuild chch' threads.
The trams are cool....but the associated power lines are not.
Napier's art deco look, with hardly any power lines overhead (all underground) looks bloody great. Not saying go art deco, just saying.....have a look at the difference not having power lines everywhere makes.
A Monorail system would be great. Suspect it would cost a lot more than trams tho.

[Ocean1]

The trams are cool....but the associated power lines are not.

Compromise could work well. Soon batteries may well be good enough to power most of the route, overhead for longer runs between stops and to goose the batteries.

Costs vs "Costs". Wellington has a bunch of trollybus overhead infrastructure, obviously, and sometimes a pole needs replacing. How would you manage that? You might be tempted to plant another pole right there beside the old one, and call all of the various service suppliers that use it to move their wires onto the new one. You'd need a resource consent for the new pole position. You wouldn't get it.

You need to get everyone to drop their lines and move them onto temporary arangements, (splicing and knitting new sections in to get there usually). Then you need to remove the old pole and replace it. Then you get all the com's and power companies back to re-run their lines back to where thay were originally.

Average "cost"? 'prox $16k, about 4 times the cost of doing it your way. They do this several times a week.

Like I said, sack the councils and you'd have budget enough for a rather better set of public services.


A Monorail system would be great. Suspect it would cost a lot more than trams tho.

Initially probably. I suspect the cost over the asset life would work out in favour of the monorail, but in fact the usual reason for them is you get to use existing land.

[Indiana_Jones]

Trains/Trams in the middle of Auckland?....ACC will have a field day! :lol:

-Indy

[mashman]

Anything ground based is open to "nature". You're going to have to suspend the project. Personally I vote for

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WBGa17b1fDc/TYnXK9CVHkI/AAAAAAAAInY/vaW3e_Vkfp8/s1600/roller-coaster.jpg

[Scouse]

I'd like to see the city get a tram system similar in size or larger than Wellington. Clean and quiet and if on rails could be quite a visitor attraction.
It would or get rid or reduce one of the most dangerous, noisy, polluting vehicles off our roads ie buses!!And replace those dangerous busses with dangerous steel tram tracks on a public road. I think that they would be rather dangerous in wet weather dont you?

[Gremlin]

Well the option that is actually going to happen isn't listed. Fuck all. Despite a project having tangible benefits, someone gets stuck with a bleeding heart, listing all the disadvantages, and in the end, nothing but a bunch of reports costing millions gets done.

What I would like to happen, is see light rapid rail/monorail. Re use existing streets etc by suspending above. No need for extra roads etc. Small pods, run frequently. People need the carrot AND stick to leave cars behind (for those that can). And for christ's sake, for those that are using it, don't go and ping all their cars for illegal parking, when you can't provide enough spaces :bash: Build goddamn multi-story buildings for parking.

[Ocean1]

And replace those dangerous busses with dangerous steel tram tracks on a public road. I think that they would be rather dangerous in wet weather dont you?

If it results in less traffic I'd say there's be a deal less carnage all round, no?

Besides...

241121

[avgas]

I'm with the rail loop, then bridge crossing.

Trams are horrible, slow, not-really-transport things. Imagine if Tokyo had a tram instead of the Yamanote Line. Casio's would be 1 hour slower each day.

Also they already have the "city circle bus line" thing which is crap, so why just pile more crap on crap - trying to make a milkshake.

Give us a proper metro.

[Luckylegs]

And replace those dangerous busses with dangerous steel tram tracks on a public road. I think that they would be rather dangerous in wet weather dont you?

And fuck me if the overhead cabling and assiciated poles arent damm ugly.

Absolutely stuffed my unintereupted panoramic views of.... Thd auckland fish market, hirequip and the tank farm... BASTARDS!!!

Now, as weve joked at work, if theyd just give us a little control box so we can use it like a train set, now that'd be fun!

[Swoop]

Most people do not work in the city centre, many of us rarely go to the city centre.
She Who Must Be Obeyed has started working in lower Auckland CBD, literally a minute or two from Britomart.

Her investigations into transport were amusing...
The trains were not starting early enough to get into the city for start time.
Busses? Nope. What a joke there.:ar15:
Take the car? The cost of parking would empty the bank account faster than Nick Smith's attempts.

A scroter looked like the best option. Free parking being the predominant factor.


Auckland has had plenty of time to plan ahead for this expansion of the city. I seriously doubt that our city "leaders" have half a braincell dedicated to the task though.

[p.dath]

Thinking about it, you need to decide what problem you are trying to solve first, before deciding on the solution.

My initial thoughts are the problem is getting people in and out of the city, rather than around the city. So this makes me think that you need to get people 20km to 30km as fast as you can.

Tram's are not going to be the answer to this problem. They are slow. Who would want to spend an hour on a slow moving tram that stops frequently to pick up and drop off people? Might as well take the car and be there in 30 minutes.

So a rapid transit train system seems the solution - to get people form the suburbs into the CBD into work, and of course, back out again.

The transit system should be one that motivates people to use it. And something that is much faster and easier will do that.
Creating a system that will only be used when subsidised seems a folly to me. And of course, don't forget who is really funding the subsidy - so it really isn't any cheaper, you just pay for part of the fare weather you use it or not.


The harbour bridge represents a single point of failure. Sure you can drive around the harbour, but that takes significantly longer. The second issue is the level of congestion and the current level of people trying to use the bridge. The last issue is the end of the lifetime of the bridge is approaching, and a lot of money will need to be spent to extend it (or you reduce the load on the bridge).
You can indeed address two of these issues with a second crossing. So this seems reasonable. The other issue (congestion) could also be addresses with another crossing, but potentially resolved using other methods (such as rail over the current bridge ...).

[MisterD]

I soon came to the conclusion that the best cities of the world being the ones that really are alive in the CBD have one thing in common and that is steel rails through the streets.

Stockholm, Amsterdam, Melbourne....Manchester :lol:

Stick a tram line in from Viaduct to St Heliers and you'll soon solve the "problem" of those big bunches of cyclists.

[Mungatoke Mad]

And replace those dangerous busses with dangerous steel tram tracks on a public road. I think that they would be rather dangerous in wet weather dont you?They used to use sand from a sand box under the seat dropped in front of the wheels for grip on ice wet etc & that was 1939 technology.
Talking to a driver at paekakariki tram museum a few years ago he said 1 Queens B/day W/end their largest power bill for 3 days running was 20 something dollars that included the ticket booth.

[blue rider]

how about this, the suspended monorail from wuppertal

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/germany-incredible-hanging-railway/20672



in operation since 1901, and on weekends they do the coffee and cake special :drool:

[p.dath]

how about this, the suspended monorail from wuppertal


I think a monorail is a serious option. Considerably cheaper than digging tunnels. Emergency evacuations are easier. Less danger from explosions than a tunnel. Can be run over the top of existing motorway lanes (or rather, over the top of the "break down" lane). Can re-use current bus terminals. Can run automated.

[bogan]

gotta think outside the box, this is what we need

<img src="http://www.chinahush.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/34677070.jpg" />

The Straddlebus! gigantic chinese men not included

No need for another bridge or removal of any lanes, and why go retro when you can go futuristic!