Do wheelies starve your oil feeds and damage the engine?

[cheshirecat]

Just read this concerning RC30's and wonder if it effects other bikes
quote
" If you decide to run the oil ¼” above the full mark your oil consumption will go up due to windage. If you do stupid things like wheelie your RC30 it is very likely you will starve the oil pump and take out rod and main bearings. Running an extra ¼” above full on the dipstick won’t save you from such antics. If you ride so hard where you must wheelie then look at putting in a deep sump oil pan. HRC made them,"

the link is here (http://rc30.yolasite.com/engine.php)
Oh you need to scroll right down to the 'oil' section

[Laava]

Simple answer. Fit a small oil pressure guage and when you do a wheelie, have a look to see if there is a significant drop.

[onearmedbandit]

Wheelied my thou for miles and miles and never noticed any problems.

[Elysium]

I'd be more concerned about damage to your steering head bearings.

[onearmedbandit]

I'd be more concerned about damage to your steering head bearings.

Only if you can't land 'em properly...

[Hitcher]

If it's been written about on the Internet, it has to be true. Honda owners beware!

[Elysium]

Only if you can't land 'em properly...

True, but a lot out there can't. I found out the previous owner of my bike like his wheelies after changing the bearings.

[bogan]

Depends on the engine, if you wheelie the oil is going to sit in a different place, so it is a possibility to starve the pump. However, under acceleration it'll do the same, so the manufacturer should put the pump's pickup where it'll keep the oil going round long enough or have a small pocket of oil that continues to feed the pump. So I reckon you're good to go for a little bit, but not massive ones.

[DrunkenMistake]

If it's been written about on the Internet, it has to be true. Honda owners beware!

Key word Honda,

Its going to break no mater what you do....:facepalm:

[Big Dave]

It's a 'known issue' with some models.

[nudemetalz]

It's a 'known issue' with some models.

Big Honda singles (namely XR500/600's and also the RFVC-headed 250's) have been known to have the cylinder heads starve of oil when wheelying causing significant damage.

[Big Dave]

Not just Hondas.

[Paul in NZ]

The answer (as BD says) is that 'it depends'. Some bikes are a wet sump design and some are dry sump. (looking in my shed - the ancient Triumph is a dry sump and the slightly less ancient Moto Guzzi is a wet sump)

BOTH these engines are plain bearing bottom ends. These require a constant feed of cool clean oil and these engines generally run higher oil pressures than roller cranks. The oil is needed to form a hydrodynamic wedge (see here a bit down the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_bearing)

Windage is when the oil level in the sump is close enough to the frenticly spinning crankshaft so that it starts getting picked up and flung all around the inside of the crankcase. You would think that this isnt a problem in a dry sump engine but it can be. In a dry sump you effectively have 2 oil pumps - one is a scavanger which pumps the oil back to the tank. On the ancient triumph you can run into problems if the scavange pipe in the sump isnt sealed properly as its easier to suck air than oil so the oil level rises and Triumph changed the length of the pipe a few times trying to get it just right for a particular state of tune.

So while windage is only a problem on a dry sump if something is wrong OR you have mixed n matched the wrong bits - its more complicated on a wet sump engine and even the factories dont get it right. The Moto Guzzi is a Mk2 LeMans, the last of the classic round barrell sports bikes. Its now fitted with a sump extender from a Mk3 (1st of the square fin). This drops the sump 30mm or so NOT so you can add more oil but so that the oil is farther away from the crank and is less likely to get flung about all over the show.

In the guzzi engine the oil pump and its pick up is towards the front of the engine. If you tip the motor back (wheelie), not only will the oil level drop at the pick up it will rise at the rear and be closer to the crank and more likely to start getting frothed up by the crank. So running for any length of time with the motor tipped back in a Guzzi might not be such a flash idea. In theory, not only can the pump pick up get above oil level the oil itself can de aerorated from the widage effect.

To counter this - people often fit a windage plate which is a type of baffle that will slow the movement of oil.

Of course other bikes have oil pickups right at the rear so prolonged braking can have an effect.... (tricky aint it)

Or - some 4 stroke lawn mowers are not recommended for people that have hilly sections beacuse they will starve of oil if run side on to the slope.....

[nudemetalz]

Interesting read, Paul,..but err...how often you get the Mk2 LM on the back wheel, huh?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Big Honda singles (namely XR500/600's and also the RFVC-headed 250's) have been known to have the cylinder heads starve of oil when wheelying causing significant damage.

Think you'll find that was more of am overheating issue that fucked the heads on those models mate, not oil starvation due to wheelies.

[nudemetalz]

hmm,..I have heard of continuous wheelies stuffing them but could be combination.
Always been critical of having good oil too, the Honda singles.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I'd be surprised being trail bikes an all...

[ducatilover]

Think you'll find that was more of am overheating issue that fucked the heads on those models mate, not oil starvation due to wheelies.

The lack of oil would help it overheat too.

Interesting reading though, I don't do wheelies, 'cos I'm a wuss.
I do have two spare clutches, bearings, crank and oil pump though....hmmmm

[Crasherfromwayback]

The lack of oil would help it overheat too.



Obviously! BUT...a seriously steep hill climb has a trail bike at wheelie like angles...so I'd be very surprised...even disappointed if Honda made an XR any model that starved it's self of oil at those angles...

[White trash]

96 to 2003 GSXRs have oil starvation issues when continuous wheelies at or near 12 O'clock are performed. Long "coasters" with the bike bouncing off the rev limiter while the clutch is disengaged don't help either. Modified oil pick-ups are fairly popular for these models as they don't respond well to over filling the engine oil as a quick fix.

[Crasherfromwayback]

96 to 2003 GSXRs have oil starvation issues when continuous wheelies at or near 12 O'clock are performed. Long "coasters" with the bike bouncing off the rev limiter while the clutch is disengaged don't help either. Modified oil pick-ups are fairly popular for these models as they don't respond well to over filling the engine oil as a quick fix.

My Z1RTC had severe oil starvation issues which resulted in catastrophic turbo failure if wheelstood. Move oil pickup from front of the sump to the rear, with a special deep sump and we were good to go.

[imdying]

The Americans report that SV650s shouldn't be used to hoist 5 mile mingas or else POP.

[Paul in NZ]

Interesting read, Paul,..but err...how often you get the Mk2 LM on the back wheel, huh?

Everytime I use the main stand - why?

[george formby]

Obviously! BUT...a seriously steep hill climb has a trail bike at wheelie like angles...so I'd be very surprised...even disappointed if Honda made an XR any model that starved it's self of oil at those angles...
\
That was my thoughts. I feared never riding up a hill again..

[Crasherfromwayback]

\
That was my thoughts. I feared never riding up a hill again..

Let alone on one wheel!

[nudemetalz]

Everytime I use the main stand - why?

haha,..not quite what I meant...



Let alone on one wheel!

me senses some sarcasm from the Crasher here....sheesh ;)

[Crasherfromwayback]

me senses some sarcasm from the Crasher here....sheesh ;)

Not at all mate.

[F5 Dave]

Gee, premix 2 strokes are looking better all the time. bleeding unreliable dirty 4 bangers shedding parts all over the place. ought to be a law.

[toycollector10]

I don't want to rain on this particular parade or bring you all down but who remembers the Cheese-Cutter thread, subsequent hand wringing and appeals to the gub'mint and the sometimes fatal effects of one too many wheelies?

Do the manufacturers now put extra fillets and welds into the head-stocks of bikes? Probably not as they are all built to a price. And what is your own life priced at?

I only mention this as I was totally fucked off to have some knob pull a wheel-stand and ride directly at me over at Motukarara last summer. He probably thought he was cool, I thought he was a dickhead.

[Katman]

I only mention this as I was totally fucked off to have some knob pull a wheel-stand and ride directly at me over at Motukarara last summer. He probably thought he was cool, I thought he was a dickhead.

About 3 years ago I came within a nanosecond of being wiped out by a cocksucker doing a 160kph+ wheelie past the Cold Kiwi entrance.

If I ever track the motherfucker down I'll ram his bike up his fucking arse, piece by fucking piece.

[Kickaha]

I don't want to rain on this particular parade or bring you all down but who remembers the Cheese-Cutter thread, subsequent hand wringing and appeals to the gub'mint and the sometimes fatal effects of one too many wheelies?

I thought the coroners report ruled frame failure out as a cause

[toycollector10]

I thought the coroners report ruled frame failure out as a cause

From what I remember of the thread the bike landed at 100+ kph and then just split in two. Whatever happened, it was a tragedy. Man, you're only young and pretty once so make the most of it but it can come to a bloody instant grinding halt very quickly or if you're really unlucky you get to live it out in a wheelchair for the next fourty years sucking soft food through a tube. You don't look so pretty then.

It's a point I have been trying to make on this forum for about 5 or so years. Blag the Katman off all you like but at least he's trying to moderate the behaviour of young folk who have no impulse control, which is pretty important when you ride a modern motorcyle!~

Someone on this forum PM'd me to "vomit my shit into Katmans mouth" which wasn't very polite. I hope that poster has had a few frights and has moderated his behaviour. You either get the learn's on or drop your bike/get injured/get paralyzed/kill someone or die yourself.

Sorry 'bout that.

[pete376403]

Think you'll find that was more of am overheating issue that fucked the heads on those models mate, not oil starvation due to wheelies.
I knew a bunch of guys who lived in and around Martinborough when XR500 / 600s were the bike of choice. Some of these guys could wheelie the bikes for miles on the long straights between Martinborough and Featherston, and at a good pace, ie fast enough to get a decent cooling airflow past the engine. Most of their bikes ended up with stuffed cam bearings in the head, attributed to oil starvation.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I knew a bunch of guys who lived in and around Martinborough when XR500 / 600s were the bike of choice. Some of these guys could wheelie the bikes for miles on the long straights between Martinborough and Featherston, and at a good pace, ie fast enough to get a decent cooling airflow past the engine. Most of their bikes ended up with stuffed cam bearings in the head, attributed to oil starvation.

Craig Wilkie was a master of wheelies from Masterton, on XR500A's. In fact...the fucker can wheelstand anything anywhere. But I don't think he's ever busted an XR due to wheelies.

[Paul in NZ]

I cant even get a unicycle up on one wheel.... sigh.....

[DEATH_INC.]

Ok, my wheelies only ever did 3-4ks at best :facepalm:, but I've never had an issue on anything from it.

As for all the other issues (safety and broken frames etc) I'm gonna blame the new generation of thou's, it used to take some skill to do 'em, now you just twist the right grip, so every muppet does 'em :blink:

[nudemetalz]

I cant even get a unicycle up on one wheel.... sigh.....

I have trouble getting anything up nowadays....

[Crasherfromwayback]

I have trouble getting anything up nowadays....

TMI matey!!!!!

[White trash]

I cant even get a unicycle up on one wheel.... sigh.....


I have trouble getting anything up nowadays....

Fucken Guzzi riders.......:facepalm:

[Shaun]

My Wheelie bike was a Yamaha TT5oo, what an awsome bike that was, 1-top gear any where any time on the back wheel, even passing cars on there left in the gravell, haha they used to shit them

Hawera was a good town in those days

Ummm, except when I was pissed and flipped it

YES, it did Retard the motor big time

[Crasherfromwayback]

My Wheelie bike was a Yamaha TT5oo, what an awsome bike that was, 1-top gear any where any time on the back wheel, even passing cars on there left in the gravell, haha they used to shit them

YES, it did Retard the motor big time

I'd still love a nice TT500. A yellow one! I would've though being a dry sump engine that long wheelies would be ok...but I guess it all depends on where the scavenge pump is...

[Paul in NZ]

Fucken Guzzi riders.......:facepalm:

hey - we have character bro.....

[avgas]

hmm,..I have heard of continuous wheelies stuffing them but could be combination.
Always been critical of having good oil too, the Honda singles.
Sorry but I must call bullshit on this - having owned 3 x GB's, and 1 x XR with RFVC.
The reason why everyone ran to the hills was because people put heavy oil in them and the poor little pump could not get the oil around in time to keep the engine cool. People (Honda PR) said it was due to wheelies.....but the fact of the matter was the owners manual recommended 10w20. This oil is fine for commuting and normal use, but if you thrash the crap out of it doesn't cool in time. What the engines such as the NC20 wanted was thinner and handled broader range of temp. I found 5w50 Visco 5000 worked the best.
While angle, how much the bike bounced etc did not help the situation, this was not the primary cause of it failing. If people use the right oil the engine would go for 200,000+km.
Saying it is the cause is like saying the WTC collapsed because it was too heavy. Never mind the 2 planes.......

[Kickaha]

From what I remember of the thread the bike landed at 100+ kph and then just split in two..

What was said in the thread and what happened in real life are often two different things

http://www.ulysses.org.nz/accident-reports/Coroner%27s-report-Papakura.pdf


re XL/XR, guys I knew could get into top doing 100+ km for substantial distances and there bikes didn't ever suffer any engine damage as a result

[nudemetalz]

Sorry but I must call bullshit on this - having owned 3 x GB's, and 1 x XR with RFVC.
The reason why everyone ran to the hills was because people put heavy oil in them and the poor little pump could not get the oil around in time to keep the engine cool. People (Honda PR) said it was due to wheelies.....but the fact of the matter was the owners manual recommended 10w20. This oil is fine for commuting and normal use, but if you thrash the crap out of it doesn't cool in time. What the engines such as the NC20 wanted was thinner and handled broader range of temp. I found 5w50 Visco 5000 worked the best.
While angle, how much the bike bounced etc did not help the situation, this was not the primary cause of it failing. If people use the right oil the engine would go for 200,000+km.
Saying it is the cause is like saying the WTC collapsed because it was too heavy. Never mind the 2 planes.......

Fair enough...it's just one of those things you hear over the years when you own XR's and the like and people telling you not to continuous wheelie them.
Of course I listened to them....

[rastuscat]

Wheelied my thou for miles and miles and never noticed any problems.

Aye, caught you doing one once. Good wheelie tho, if I do say so :yes:

[onearmedbandit]

Aye, caught you doing one once. Good wheelie tho, if I do say so :yes:

I only stopped because I knew you guys were being assessed and I didn't want to make you look bad in front of your superiors, nice guy that I am and all. :innocent:

[Kornholio]

96 to 2003 GSXRs have oil starvation issues when continuous wheelies at or near 12 O'clock are performed. Long "coasters" with the bike bouncing off the rev limiter while the clutch is disengaged don't help either. Modified oil pick-ups are fairly popular for these models as they don't respond well to over filling the engine oil as a quick fix.

Big scenic 10 o clock standups seem to be ok on those models(well the 750 anyway :p )... the odd 12 o clock and and beyond when hitting a hedgehog or possum but that not too prolonged tho in my experience :blink:

[MarkH]

The reason why everyone ran to the hills was because people put heavy oil in them and the poor little pump could not get the oil around in time to keep the engine cool. People (Honda PR) said it was due to wheelies.....but the fact of the matter was the owners manual recommended 10w20. This oil is fine for commuting and normal use, but if you thrash the crap out of it doesn't cool in time. What the engines such as the NC20 wanted was thinner and handled broader range of temp. I found 5w50 Visco 5000 worked the best.


Ummm, what you said sounds completely the wrong way around - you are suggesting that 20 weight oil is too heavy and 50 weight oil is better? 10w20 is VERY thin for motor oil - MUCH thinner than 5w50. I use a 40 weight oil (10w40, 5w40 or anything else ending in 40) because that is what Suzuki recommend, I avoid the 50 weight oils (like 5w50) because it is thicker than the recommended oil.

Is it perhaps a typo and you didn't mean 10w20 at all? I would have thought that 10w40 would have been pretty common - but that is still thinner oil than 5w50.

I do agree with the handling of broader range of temperature though - that is why I only use fully synthetic oil (like Mobil 1).