How do you practise emergency braking?

[Desert Eagle]

Found this article pretty interesting and easy to read, apparently your bike stops really well if you have a large box filled with some kind of black magic on your back...

If you're not one to look at words and read numbers, then its all summed up for you from page 13 onwards:

http://www.fmq.qc.ca/pdf/amorce-freinage_eng.pdf

[007XX]

I practiced my emergency braking lots on a track day...Still have the pics of my tyres to prove it!

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[The Singing Chef]

I practice it at Nass but today i did it down my road, used trees and cars as markers, went to 50km/h and practiced, also did U-turns and slow speed maneuvers and straight line speed. gave the neighbors something to watch

[Ricardo S]

on the motorway going to work everyday, charging in to the back of the cages and braking in the last moment.

[Shaun]

You can practice emergency breaking in a car park or even your drive way?

The feeling is the same at 20MPH as it as at 120MPH, the wheel will lock up the same and the reaction to your chassis/bike will be the same!!!!!! just at a slower speed or a faster speed depending on the speed travelling when the lock up occurs

[Ricardo S]

on the motorway going to work everyday, charging in to the back of the cages and braking in the last moment.




btw, before rocks start flying in my direction, this called humor :lol:

[YellowDog]

When those annoying fellas, who are always looking for trouble, point their speed guns at me :yes:

[The Singing Chef]

When those annoying fellas, who are always looking for trouble, point their speed guns at me :yes:

Hehehe :innocent:

[Hitcher]

My drill, on a quiet road, is to stop from 100kmh in less than two white road markers. Now, thanks to Mr Suzuki's most excellent ABS, I can do this comfortably, wet or dry.

[James Deuce]

I've paid a small crew of people lacking a moral compass to abduct and throw kindergarten children out in front of me at random intervals.

[The Singing Chef]

I've paid a small crew of people lacking a moral compass to abduct and throw kindergarten children out in front of me at random intervals.

Hahahaha good for reaction times:shutup::shit:

[release_the_bees]

I've paid a small crew of people lacking a moral compass to abduct and throw kindergarten children out in front of me at random intervals.

Reminds me of what my dad told me about his bike licence test. Apparently the instructor got him to test his emergency braking by getting him to ride around a course and then jumping out of the bushes in front of him part way around!

[LBD]

My drill, on a quiet road, is to stop from 100kmh in less than two white road markers. Now, thanks to Mr Suzuki's most excellent ABS, I can do this comfortably, wet or dry.

ABS is amazing to use, I now confidently grab a fistfull on the gravel...with twin Brembos and no worries. However I am worried what it will do to my skills when I get back on a non ABS bike.

[george formby]

I've paid a small crew of people lacking a moral compass to abduct and throw kindergarten children out in front of me at random intervals.

You don't brake for the kids in my street. They would have the bike stripped before I could get a foot down. Their is not a lot of grip on them though so you have to run them over smoothly to avoid a loss of traction or lock up.:laugh:

[george formby]

ABS is amazing to use, I now confidently grab a fistfull on the gravel...with twin Brembos and no worries. However I am worried what it will do to my skills when I get back on a non ABS bike.

Just like jumping from a manual to an auto & back. You only do it once.:no:

[LBD]

Just like jumping from a manual to an auto & back. You only do it once.:no:

Its only takes once in a panic situation for things to go horribly wrong...

[Road kill]

I practice changing line at the same time as braking.
I've owned a few bikes where this has come in very handy.
One bike that really stode out was a 1980 Harley FLT that had brakes that were so bad they would all but vanish totaly in the rain.
With that thing "the ability to change line while waiting for the brakes to finaly grab "a little" saved the day many times.
A few times I've gone into near panic braking mode an then changed my mind and direction at the same time.
It's a good feeling when you come to a halt just beside the thing that you would of run into at hurt speed had you not changed direction just enough to miss it.

[Hitcher]

However I am worried what it will do to my skills when I get back on a non ABS bike.

A couple of years ago I was chatting to a dude in Napier who had done exactly that. He said he usually rode a BMW thingo. I think it was a K thingo. Anyway one day he swapped with a mate who had an R1. He took a tight corner a bit hot, grabbed a handful of brake, and the rest was history. Massive stoppie, uncoordinated momentum, roadside fence, munted R1 and rider. Ouch.

[Mom]

He took a tight corner a bit hot, grabbed a handful of brake, and the rest was history. Massive stoppie, uncoordinated momentum, roadside fence, munted R1 and rider. Ouch.

I think you just highlighted for me why I am happy to have the non ABS ride. To be so out of touch with the finer points of the feel of your brakes is taking a bit of a risk as far as I am concerned.

I know I can grab up an emergency handful/foot plant of Millies brakes, her back end twitches, and the front end dips and holds :mellow: No locking of wheels, just intense stopping power.

I would not want to move away from the me controlled brakes.

[LBD]

I think you just highlighted for me why I am happy to have the non ABS ride. To be so out of touch with the finer points of the feel of your brakes is taking a bit of a risk as far as I am concerned.

I know I can grab up an emergency handful/foot plant of Millies brakes, her back end twitches, and the front end dips and holds :mellow: No locking of wheels, just intense stopping power.

I would not want to move away from the me controlled brakes.

:shit:The worry is setting in ...maybe I should leave the 1098 in a glass display case....Gulp:no:

[Mom]

:shit:The worry is setting in ...maybe I should leave the 1098 in a glass display case....Gulp:no:

Take the piss all you want, you can not practise emergency braking with ABS.

[Hitcher]

I think you just highlighted for me why I am happy to have the non ABS ride. To be so out of touch with the finer points of the feel of your brakes is taking a bit of a risk as far as I am concerned.

Until January this year I may have agreed with you, particularly having ridden some bikes (BMWs particularly) with particularly vague and pusillanimous ABS brakes. However I now own a GSX1250FA with ABS. These feel like brakes and work very predictably. After some practice, I am very confident to make them stop me quickly. I think Forrest Gump's Mum summed up nicely the rider in my earlier example when she wisely said "Stupid is as stupid does".

[LBD]

Take the piss all you want, you can not practise emergency braking with ABS.

Agree with where you are going with this...no piss taking involved....(I have both)

Although you can practice emergency braking both with and without ABS, it is the non ABS that requires more rider skill to to get right and there fore it is more important to practice emergency braking if you ride a non ABS bike.

My point was, after getting accustomed to (Read that as Lazy) an ABS equiped bike, am I increasing the chance of getting it wrong when I jump on the non ABS bike?.

[BMWST?]

Take the piss all you want, you can not practise emergency braking with ABS.

of course you can..and should.
You should be familiar with how the bike feels with the abs working.My car has abs .You need to practise to appreciate how much control you have.Otherwise you just slam on the brakes and hope.With abs you can manouvere the car(and bike) but you need to try it regularly to keep the mind open to all possibilities

[supa.m]

Is it possible for any of these ABS systems to fail/fault while the bike is in use? They must have some form of fail safe, right?

[Mom]

My point was, after getting accustomed to (Read that as Lazy) an ABS equiped bike, am I increasing the chance of getting it wrong when I jump on the non ABS bike?.

I think you might be in danger of that. I dont as a rule make use of emergency braking, I tend to be far too conservative for my own good mostly. The odd time I NEED to stop/slow down in a very large hurry not only reminds me it is good to be alive, but also reinforces the need to have good progressive braking in your repitoire.

Any fool can lock up and slide/skid to a stop, sometimes it is quite good fun to exhibit that skill too...

I think ABS will lead to unskilled riders, who when their ABS fails (heaven forbid) have no progressive braking skills to fall back on. Just saying.

[Mom]

of course you can..and should.
You should be familiar with how the bike feels with the abs working.My car has abs .You need to practise to appreciate how much control you have.Otherwise you just slam on the brakes and hope.With abs you can manouvere the car(and bike) but you need to try it regularly to keep the mind open to all possibilities

I hear what you are saying, but surely the bottom line is you should be able to "know" how to stop safely regardless if you have ABS or not?

[James Deuce]

I hear what you are saying, but surely the bottom line is you should be able to "know" how to stop safely regardless if you have ABS or not?

You're not going to be able to buy a bike without ABS within the next 5 years. I think it will rapidly become a moot point and things like stability control and anti-wheely technology are going to become widely adopted as well, even on "cheap" commuters.

[St_Gabriel]

I think you might be in danger of that. I dont as a rule make use of emergency braking, I tend to be far too conservative for my own good mostly. The odd time I NEED to stop/slow down in a very large hurry not only reminds me it is good to be alive, but also reinforces the need to have good progressive braking in your repitoire.


I think ABS will lead to unskilled riders, who when their ABS fails (heaven forbid) have no progressive braking skills to fall back on. Just saying.

So you use progressive braking and rarely use your braking to a "ABS Kicks in" level and appreciate your skill level etc etc.
People who ride with ABS all the time, im sure dont activate it at every stop, just like you they would use the progressive braking, but when they have an "Oh shit" moment and they happen to overbrake it should stop them skidding and save their arse.
I sure wish I had ABS on my GV250 as it may have saved me when, as a newbie, I had an emergency braking situation and locked the front tyre. I have used ABS only once in an emergency (in a cage) and it saved me a dent that day.

[BMWST?]

I hear what you are saying, but surely the bottom line is you should be able to "know" how to stop safely regardless if you have ABS or not?

of course and to accomplish that surely there is nothing wrong with practise

[baffa]

I have to say I have practiced slowing quickly, but the only times I have truely practiced emergency braking has been when people pull out in front of me, and I have discovered how quickly I can stop. Which is pretty quickly I have to say!

What surprised me is how comfortable the bike feels with the tail skidding and wagging and the front doing it's best impersonation of a nosedive.

The way I have always braked in cars, and now in bikes, is even when I need to brake suddenly, I never slam the brakes, always pull them firmly then increase pressure as required. This is mostly due to learning to drive in small shtboxes with no abs, and learning the dangers of simply grabbing/stomping the brakes.

Even if you have abs in a car or on a bike I think progressive braking is crucial. Even ignoring the possibility that the ABS unit could fail, braking severely enough to break traction or induce abs, is going to your brakes less effective.

[slofox]

My drill, on a quiet road, is to stop from 100kmh in less than two white road markers.

Shouldn't you be able to do it in less than two METRES? I'm sure there was someone here who could do that...:whistle:

[James Deuce]

I can do it one metre, drunk, wearing a traffic cone for a helmet and riding an A100.

Easy.

[Metastable]

Is it possible for any of these ABS systems to fail/fault while the bike is in use? They must have some form of fail safe, right?

Well just read today in Superbike mag that the journo was getting serious brake fade at the track on the CBR1000 ABS equipped bike. Mind you yes it was at the track, not the road.

[Metastable]

Shouldn't you be able to do it in less than two METRES? I'm sure there was someone here who could do that...:whistle:

A wall might help with that. :D

[Hitcher]

Well just read today in Superbike mag that the journo was getting serious brake fade at the track on the CBR1000 ABS equipped bike. Mind you yes it was at the track, not the road.

Fade in such circumstances has got nothing to do with the ABS. Brakes still wear and overheat, ABS or no ABS. All ABS is doing is providing a means of stopping brakes locking up.

[sinned]

My drill, on a quiet road, is to stop from 100kmh in less than two white road markers. Now, thanks to Mr Suzuki's most excellent ABS, I can do this comfortably, wet or dry.
I must try that. Is there a set distance between the white markers and is that consistently applied? What is the distance?

[James Deuce]

I must try that. Is there a set distance between the white markers and is that consistently applied? What is the distance?

Section 5.05.05 of this (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/motsam/part-2/docs/motsam-2-section-5.pdf) document.

For those that didn't click on the word "this": http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/motsam/part-2/docs/motsam-2-section-5.pdf

To summarise, if the road is straight they're 100m apart.

If it curves, even slightly, they're all over the place.

[marty]

My drill, on a quiet road, is to stop from 100kmh in less than two white road markers. Now, thanks to Mr Suzuki's most excellent ABS, I can do this comfortably, wet or dry.

do you still practice with cars reversing towards you?

[Hitcher]

do you still practice with cars reversing towards you?

Hopefully that was a oncer. I am consequently hyper-vigilant about what the rear indicators of vehicles are telling me. That took a bit of extra attention riding in the USA where orange flashing indicators on the rear of vehicles are a bit of a novelty.

[sinned]

Section 5.05.05 of this (http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/motsam/part-2/docs/motsam-2-section-5.pdf) document.

For those that didn't click on the word "this": http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/motsam/part-2/docs/motsam-2-section-5.pdf

To summarise, if the road is straight they're 100m apart.

If it curves, even slightly, they're all over the place.

Thanks James D - that doc is for posts; center markings are in section 2. The painted strip is 3m and 7m gap between. So Hitcher can stop in 20M? Not sure if that is good? Not as quick as DBs 2M :laugh:

[James Deuce]

Thanks James D - that doc is for posts; center markings are in section 2. The painted strip is 3m and 7m gap between. So Hitcher can stop in 20M? Not sure if that is good? Not as quick as DBs 2M :laugh:

He's talking about the posts, mm mm Kay?

Anyway, last time I ever go digging traffic regs out. You guys stick with common belief in future.

[sinned]

He's talking about the posts, mm mm Kay?

Anyway, last time I ever go digging traffic regs out. You guys stick with common belief in future.

I hope you are not having a hissy fit?

[James Deuce]

I hope you are not having a hissy fit?
Yes, yes I am.

[Metastable]

Fade in such circumstances has got nothing to do with the ABS. Brakes still wear and overheat, ABS or no ABS. All ABS is doing is providing a means of stopping brakes locking up.

That's what I would think too, except that's explicitly what the writer said happened and it DIDN'T with the non-ABS bike. He also went on to mention that on the CBR600RR, it wasn't as noticeable on the ABS bike as opposed to the non-ABS bike, but it was still there.

Don't shoot the messenger.... you can read it for yourself. I was reading the 600 test. It is probably the mag that is on the news stands right now.
SUPERBIKE August 2011 Page 38-39

Check it out. :)

[That looks like fun]

:scooter:Brake fade is caused by excess heat, heat is energy, plain and simple. When the brakes are applied, energy (heat) is produced by the forces and powers Sir isaac Newton spent a bit of time working out. :mellow:
ABS only operates when excesive force is applied by the (for lack of a better word) braker.
ABS is a system of regulating braking force to prevent wheels locking up and therefore maximising stopping effort. :love:
Hmmmm <_<, maximum effort would probably generate maximum heat :laugh:
So perhaps the ABS equiped bikes brakes faded because its brakes were working better than the non ABS equipped Model :wings:
If in a situation such as a race track the aforementioned braker is constantly applying maximum force to the brakes (abs model as opposed to Non Abs model) chances are there will be brake fade on one particular model :facepalm:
The question I now ponder is, what was the real problem? :violin:

[Rhys]

I don't under stand why you would not want abs, it reduces backing distance of most rides especially in wet/slippery conditions
I would guarantee that an average rider on a abs equipped bike would out brake the best rider on here on the non abs equivalent bike.

[LBD]

I don't under stand why you would not want abs, it reduces backing distance of most rides especially in wet/slippery conditions
I would guarantee that an average rider on a abs equipped bike would out brake the best rider on here on the non abs equivalent bike.

I would say you are 95% right anyway.....a rider with ABS would out brake at least95% of the non abs equiped riders ...The problem in my opinion is when a rider familiar with abs, switches back to a non ABS bike

[Ocean1]

I don't under stand why you would not want abs, it reduces backing distance of most rides especially in wet/slippery conditions
I would guarantee that an average rider on a abs equipped bike would out brake the best rider on here on the non abs equivalent bike.

Incorrect. Top riders routinely brake shorter on non-ABS models. Mortals sometimes do too, it's just that they also sometimes crash instead.

[gatch]

I don't under stand why you would not want abs, it reduces backing distance of most rides especially in wet/slippery conditions
I would guarantee that an average rider on a abs equipped bike would out brake the best rider on here on the non abs equivalent bike.

I would bet you $100 that you are wrong. A good rider will stop quicker with conventional brakes than a hamfist with abs.

[bluninja]

I was always taught to brake with the clutch engaged till the last second...in fact in the UK I was told (bike and car) that stalling as I came to a standstill would not cause me to fail an emergency stop.

Yet the article in the OP says that braking distance is lower if the clutch is disengaged.

Strange; I know that when racing I raise the idle so that I always have some drive, even if I jam the throttle shut into the corner instead of being back on the throttle. Even at idle the engine tries to move the bike forwards, so it it logical that if I want to stop in the shortest distance I need to remove any forces pushing the bike forward and increase to the max all the forces that retard the bike.

So why is it that I am so resistant to the idea of pulling the clutch in under heavy braking? Was the programming of my first driving/riding instructors, reinforced by success at passing my test strong enough to discount better/other braking techniques?

If declutching is the way to go, why haven't Honda added it to their Linked + ABS braking systems?