My first Bandit! And the flat spot [Archive]

maggot

6th July 2011, 22:24

Sable

6th July 2011, 22:31

Should I be worrying?
No. 10character

DrunkenMistake

6th July 2011, 23:09

Could be running rich? not enough air can cause it, possible air filter change/clean and then give it a shot

Hitcher

6th July 2011, 23:18

I can't remember the last time I had the Technically-Not-A-Bandit over 5,000rpm. It's even got a shift light that doesn't flash at 2,500rpm.

ducatilover

6th July 2011, 23:20

If the power delivery is going flat, not "soft/fluffy/boggy/wet" feeling it is too lean. 6-8k is around the time where the carb needles should be rising, you may have dirty slide/slightly sticking slides or the needle height is too low.
Has it got the factory fitted muffler?
A service may also clear it up, a bad air filter can cause all sorts of silly problems and so can poorly gapped spark plugs.

maggot

6th July 2011, 23:45

I'll get to the service asap, get them to check/change the air filter and the plugs. The plugs apparently are only a couple months old though, but no harm in checking.
If the problem persists I'll start looking at the carbs, give them a good clean and balance. Thanks for the replies, much appreciated :yes:

maggot

6th July 2011, 23:47

I can't remember the last time I had the Technically-Not-A-Bandit over 5,000rpm. It's even got a shift light that doesn't flash at 2,500rpm.

Take 1000cc off yours and you've got mine :innocent: though, not technically..

Katman

7th July 2011, 10:14

If the power delivery is going flat, not "soft/fluffy/boggy/wet" feeling it is too lean. 6-8k is around the time where the carb needles should be rising, you may have dirty slide/slightly sticking slides or the needle height is too low.

Or equally, it could be worn jet needles and needle jets causing it to run rich.

Banditbandit

7th July 2011, 12:30

So I picked up my new baby on monday. I'm in love! :love:
Having a hellova lotta fun on her, but I've noticed a bit of an oddity in the rev range. Between 6-8k rpm it seems to go a bit flat, the engine changes tone and I've not got much response, either side of that it's fine, and sometimes I won't have the problem at all. But it worries me. Is this normal for bandits? I suspect not, but am unused to the sounds and habits of four-cylinders.
I'm popping into the shop for a C-service asap, but am thinking I should get her checked over more thoroughly, see what they say.
Should I be worrying?

Cheers in advance

Glad you like it - I have two - a 650 and a 1250 ... Love them both.

I've never encountered the problem of a "flat spot" .. .I wouldn't describe it as a flat spot - but that does seem an appropriate way to see it.

On either bike basically anything under 110klicks to accelerate I drop into fourth ... anything below 110 to 120 feels flat if you open up in top gear (sixth)

On my 650 I've been to 180 klicks in fifth .. and it was still accelerating hard and not on the read line .. on the 1250 I have seen 200 klicks in fourth .. and starting to run out of acceleration .... but hey, at 200 klicks I had two more gears to go ... the lack of punch in top gear at around 100 klicks is a little more marked on the 1250 than the 650 ...

I found that you need to use the revs on these bikes - to corner .. to accelerate .. but they are fucken FUN if you do that ... once you get the road speed to revs balance right you'll be having such fun ..

ducatilover

7th July 2011, 13:08

Or equally, it could be worn jet needles and needle jets causing it to run rich.

Very good point, they run mikuni carbs don't they? Are they prone to needle wear?

maggot

7th July 2011, 13:12

Took her out for a spin today, same problem still. I also noticed this morning while warming her up that a bunch of black residue was coming out of the exhaust, so by looking at that it seems to be running rich? Once warm it seemed to not be noticeable, and after the ride I came back and held a piece of paper up to the exhaust to check, and it was clean.
I've got the service booked in for tomorrow, I'll get them to check the plugs and while they're out test riding it see if they notice the lag/flat spot/hesitation/what have you. I've read elsewhere on the forums about emulsion tubes being worn on similar bikes, would this be likely to be my problem?

bogan

7th July 2011, 13:22

Is it still all stock exhaust and filter etc? Does it come right again after 8k?

I wouldn't be worrying too much, but way better to get it fixed.

maggot

7th July 2011, 13:24

Is it still all stock exhaust and filter etc? Does it come right again after 8k?

I wouldn't be worrying too much, but way better to get it fixed.

Yup, all stock. When I took it out today it seemed to not want to get past 8k, which worried me a bit.

ducatilover

7th July 2011, 13:24

Emulsion tube could do it, but, I would expect it to be rich all the way if that was the case. Does it take much longer to start when warm?

Not going past 8k could be a vacuum leak or slides not lifting or blocked main jets (Or, unusual chance of the spark being blown out)

maggot

7th July 2011, 13:25

Emulsion tube could do it, but, I would expect it to be rich all the way if that was the case. Does it take much longer to start when warm?

Nope, first pop start when warm. With no load, it'll rev cleanly all the way through the range. But when actually riding it won't.

ducatilover

7th July 2011, 13:27

Air leak or main jet then. Incorrect filter will also do that by causing it to run far to rich.

maggot

7th July 2011, 13:29

Air leak or main jet then. Incorrect filter will also do that by causing it to run far to rich.
Wouldn't an air leak be evident due to an uneven idle? Cos mine is all fine. I'm hoping it's as simple as the filter.

bogan

7th July 2011, 13:40

Nope, first pop start when warm. With no load, it'll rev cleanly all the way through the range. But when actually riding it won't.

Jetting or slide operation would be my thoughts. How mechanically competent are you? Not too hard a job to check or piss round with, but also not one you want to cock up!

ducatilover

7th July 2011, 13:41

Wouldn't an air leak be evident due to an uneven idle? Cos mine is all fine. I'm hoping it's as simple as the filter.

Not necessarily, you're carbs compensate to a point with an air leak, an injected engine hunts at idle with an air leak because of unmetered air vs the o2 sensor signal.
Hopefully a service will clear it up :yes:

bogan

7th July 2011, 13:45

just a thought, it's not choke sticking or something simple like that?

maggot

7th July 2011, 13:49

I'll check the basics again before I head off to work, see if anything new presents itself. If the issue is still happening after the service I'll enlist the help of my old man bike mentor and we'll pull the carbs apart and go through them.
Thanks for all the help so far, really appreciate it.

maggot

8th July 2011, 20:27

So got the service done today. Pretty underwhelming! Plugs were apparently not great and were replaced, apparently were looking a bit white previously, so running lean? Usual bits and pieces cleaned, fixed, replaced. The flat spot persists, so will look at pulling the carbs down and checking everything over.
Bit of a grump with the shop, they charged me one hell of a lot, and after all that forget to reconnect the choke. Which I discovered trying to start a very cold bike a very long way from home. So will head back there and kick up a fuss tomorrow. Less than impressed.

So results of the day: bike running lean, new plugs haven't done shit, and a bike shop I'm not interested at paying any more money to work on my bike!

bogan

8th July 2011, 20:37

lean is more likely to be an air leak than worn jets etc imo.

nzspokes

8th July 2011, 20:42

lean is more likely to be an air leak than worn jets etc imo.

I agree. Carbs would have to have done a lot of work to wear jets. Look over it yourself, get a little spray bottle of water and spray around the carbs while the motor is running. If the motor stumbles youve found the leak. You only need a light spray.

If the flat spot was to be part of the service then they should have sorted it.

maggot

8th July 2011, 20:47

Was only a C-service. They wanted to charge me another couple hundred bucks to just have a looksee at the carbs. So I figure it's something that I can do with a more mechanically minded person looking over my shoulder and save myself a tad more cash.
Will try the suggested above.

ducatilover

8th July 2011, 22:51

I agree. Carbs would have to have done a lot of work to wear jets.

Some of them had alloy needles, like the early dynojet kits and they can be shagged within 5000km easily :no:

I'd be putting money on an air leak. You need to check the plugs yourself as there is a way to "read them" [sic] to see what's going on.

maggot

8th July 2011, 23:46

Some of them had alloy needles, like the early dynojet kits and they can be shagged within 5000km easily :no:

I'd be putting money on an air leak. You need to check the plugs yourself as there is a way to "read them" [sic] to see what's going on.

So would an air leak cause significant problems at only mid and top range? Cos the bottom range is perfectly fine for now.
Sometime next week I'll be bunking down in the garage for a day or two with the old man mentor until this is sorted, he's planning on doing the usual test of running the bike at a certain rev range, killing it and whipping out the plugs to check colour. Hopefully that'll give us some indication of whats going on.

ducatilover

8th July 2011, 23:52

So would an air leak cause significant problems at only mid and top range? Cos the bottom range is perfectly fine for now.
Sometime next week I'll be bunking down in the garage for a day or two with the old man mentor until this is sorted, he's planning on doing the usual test of running the bike at a certain rev range, killing it and whipping out the plugs to check colour. Hopefully that'll give us some indication of whats going on.

Plug chop won't work unless the engine's under load. An airleak could stop the slides from fully lifting or be slightly too lean just before they do. I've had these problems before :confused:

maggot

9th July 2011, 00:00

Plug chop won't work unless the engine's under load. An airleak could stop the slides from fully lifting or be slightly too lean just before they do. I've had these problems before :confused:

He's planning to do it under load.
Cheers, I get you now. I'm trying to understand as much of the theoretical as I can so I can deal with these kinda problems if and when they arise again, hence all the silly questions :yes:

ducatilover

9th July 2011, 00:08

He's planning to do it under load.
Cheers, I get you now. I'm trying to understand as much of the theoretical as I can so I can deal with these kinda problems if and when they arise again, hence all the silly questions :yes:

Good stuff then :msn-wink: Good luck with it, let us know how you get on.
If you take the diaphragms out of the carbs, use something to hold the slide up a bit when putting them back in, this allows you to seal the diaphragm easier and eliminates the problem with air leaking to/from the top of the slides.

nzspokes

9th July 2011, 07:41

Some of them had alloy needles, like the early dynojet kits and they can be shagged within 5000km easily :no:

Oh I see. Didnt know that. My history is in car engines and have never come across that.

One thing the OP could do now is just run over all the nuts on and around the carbs to make sure they are snug. Could be that easy. Do the easy stuff first.

ducatilover

9th July 2011, 12:06

Oh I see. Didnt know that. My history is in car engines and have never come across that.

One thing the OP could do now is just run over all the nuts on and around the carbs to make sure they are snug. Could be that easy. Do the easy stuff first.

Yeah I agree, start simple.

maggot

25th July 2011, 16:55

I guess I should update this with my progress!
We pulled the bike down a weekend or so ago, to see what we could figure out.
Long story short, the bike shop had left a farking filthy air filter in, which we replaced, they replaced my old plugs with colder plugs, which meant it wasn't burning fuel, which we took back to the shop and demanded they replace. Needless to say I'm not going back to the shop in question, the way I see it they did a half assed job and kept telling me to come back so they could clean the carbs, hoping to suck some more money out of me. Anyhow. We cleaned float bowls as best we could and built it all back up again. Got it started, was good and fine, took it out for a spin, was riding really well.

Until earlier this week, when the original problem came back!

I decided to have a crack at it myself, having a free day and feeling ambitious! I noticed a bit of residue on the rubber boot connecting the airbox to number three carb, so I pulled all the plugs to check them. Lo and behold, number three plug was carbon fouled. So onto the carbs I went. Pulled the block off, pulled the floats off, checked float levels which were fine, cleaned the bowls again while I was at it. Was just eye checking other bits and pieces when I heard an odd dropping sound.
Had a look through the piston slides and noticed a needle was missing, in number three carb! Which wasn't missing two minutes ago! So off came the top of two of the carbs, one was the offender, one for comparison. Turns out, the spring seat (little round stepped plastic washer which sits on top of the needle clip) which holds the needle down with the spring was missing! So what was happening was the needle was lifting and not being forced back down by the spring, thus holding the jet open and not shutting it off, causing lots of extra fuel to run into the cylinder and foul the plug!

So basically, I now need a tiny little plastic round washer to replace it with and then hopefully problem solved!

ducatilover

25th July 2011, 17:06

That's a great and inexpensive problem! :yes: Hopefully you have the bugger sorted now.

maggot

25th July 2011, 17:26

Hoping so! Just wanna find the monkey who was messing around in there last time and forget to put all the bits back in and smack him one!

shonofear

14th August 2011, 10:24

interesting read there,
about to purchase my first Bandit 250 (96 model) and just reading general posts/threads about them.
I had a test ride yesterday and felt pretty good throughout the rev/gear ranges but really needed to test on a nice long straight and give it some higher revs.
didnt realise these bikes love to be rev'd that much!!
coming from a VTR 250 (05 model) back in Oz that has more power in the lower revs so its quiet the change, and sound wise as well, not sure what i prefer atm.
anyhoo,
just found out where im currently living the manager of the place used to work on Bandit's and all sorts of motos and really recommended them, and would help do my services/adjustments whenever needed. Champ!
so im sure if you need some more advice, bring her round to where im staying, he'd help fa shizel
sorry for butting in, but hope you got it all sorted now for your bike, maybe i'll see you on the road ? im in Kingsland...
cheerz

maggot

14th August 2011, 11:08

Yeah mate, she's all back together and running really well now. New chain and sprockets too, which is nice! They're pretty slick little bikes imo, though I'm a little biased.
Let us know how you go with yours!

shonofear

14th August 2011, 11:23

well the bike im bidding on is getting a little expensive now...
just hit $2800-
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=395979946
not sure how much i want to pay for it...
other option is for a 2009 model, Ninja for $5300-
or a Hornet 250 (96 model) for $3400-

decisions...

maggot

14th August 2011, 11:30

If the kms are genuine, I'd say it's a bargain at that price. What's the state of everything? Chain, sprockets, pads, tyres? Maintenance history?

shonofear

14th August 2011, 11:45

yea, seems to be ok condition with pretty much everything. was a chick owner who now upgraded to the 600 Bandit, and her husband rides as well so got the oil/filter changes done. forgot to check the pads, but was braking well.
i guess im happy even to get it for $3k, it felt really nice when riding it.

ducatilover

14th August 2011, 11:46

It's worth it and it's black.

shonofear

14th August 2011, 12:01

It's worth it and it's black.

dis is true.
should have resell value similar to 3k when i leave NZ in summer (Dec) yea?
cheers

ducatilover

14th August 2011, 12:17

dis is true.
should have resell value similar to 3k when i leave NZ in summer (Dec) yea?
cheers

I would expect so if you keep it tidy and receipts of services etc etc

shonofear

14th August 2011, 12:32

yay, and the winner is...... me
geezz i hate the whole anticipation with auctions, gets my nerves all rattled up.
come out to be $3250- 6 month Reg slapped on.
im happy, and dont mind letting it go when i leave for under 3k, at least i will make my moneys worth of it in riding fun times :P
hey question,
i gotta travel from Glenfield to Kingsland and me mate recommended not going on the harbour bridge with these massive winds, should i go the long way around the West coast?
Sorta slightly nervous being my first real highway ride in NZ and on a new, not used to bike.
tips in this weather?
cheerz

maggot

14th August 2011, 12:42

If not more so, accounting for summer prices, and depending on what you do to it. If it stays tidy, I'd say you'd make money on it.

maggot

14th August 2011, 12:46

If you're nervous in this weather, probably best not to take the bridge. Winds are pretty ridiculous today. The long way round still has some bits where you're likely to catch a fair bit of wind, but less daunting than catching them on the bridge. Just depends on what you're comfortable with.
Tips: keep the power on, stay loose, let the bike move under you, counter steer to stay in a straight line, don't tighten up on the bars.
Just be all loosey-goosey and you'll be right

ducatilover

14th August 2011, 12:47

Congrats on the Bandit dude, enjoy it :Punk:

maggot

14th August 2011, 12:48

Oh yeah, and congrats!

tnarg

14th August 2011, 13:12

Congrats on the purchase. There good little bike and fun to ride. Me and my flatmate both have bandits. We should all hook up for a bandit ride sometime.

shonofear

14th August 2011, 17:00

thanks fellas for the warm welcome to the Bandit Bros.
the ride home was fun wearing an el'cheapo scooter open up my face helmet that almost come off around 1 point doing 100kph home, had to get into the seriously low racer position to counter it.
then pull off at wrong exit and perfect timing as it literally pissed down hard for at least 5 mins and found some shelter.
then hit the road again with little traffic which helped immensely.
bike is now under some tarp resting up ready for many more tales of adventures to come :P

also had a good chat to the husband who did a lot of the work on the bike, and he said it is legit k's on the odom and he checked it all out when they first bought it like a while ago. he bleed the brakes, new pads and few other gear, shocks an stuff.
so thats about it.
time for sum serious riding gear now.
since i got all your attention what do you think about this deal...

technic leather gloves
technic chicane leather pants and jacket (black)
technic racing boots
shoei raid II helmet

all only worn like 3 times for $700- all up worth at least over $1200-
and pretty much all my size,
will try it all on during the week and go from there, but does that sound pretty good ?
then at least i can take all me gear back home with me to Oz, except the helmet (silly Oz standards)

cheerz
yea, def keen to get together with some fellow Bandit riders

ducatilover

14th August 2011, 17:29

Sounds like a fun ride home haha

I just crashed in a 1 day old set of Teknic gloves last week, they are rooted now, but my hands wouldn't be here without them, they were lightning gloves, bloody brilliant :Punk:

If that gear fits you, I'd try knock them down a wee bit and get it :D

shonofear

14th August 2011, 18:04

sheshh matey, thats a heavy fall indeed. yea they are also the Lightning gloves for sale. just call him and gonna try the gear on Tuesday, then the bargaining begins.
but in hindsight its pretty decent deal, i almost brought a $200- helmet and a $300- jacket which would of been $500-, so an extra $200- gets me boots, gloves and pants. but $600- sounds much better in my opinion.
sweet

Latte

14th August 2011, 18:13

MY teknic booths fell apart after about 10 rides. the rubber sole came away from the boot, it's only glued on. And I snapped a zip (wasn't pulling that tight imo). I've been told their leathers are top notch, but boots are a let down. Had a cordura jacket of theirs that was well made and lasted a while.

Merely my experience , could be a one off on the boots.

shonofear

16th August 2011, 18:06

well, got it all for $650- (gear) all in pretty sweet nic, boots are 2 sizes to small though.
i think their 8's. any 1 wanna buy a cheap pair ?
the jacket after my ride home is slightly loose on me which is sorta gay, thats also with wearing a hoodie, thin wool sweater and shirt underneath.
is it meant to be really snug on your arms, the elbow pads sorta move round a wee bit...
looks like i have to bulk up or just live with it, or sell,
could not be bothered taking it back although i do have to go back to pick up the boots (didnt fit in the bag with me at the time)
im a very bad researcher, i talked to a guy from Red Baron today and he said its pretty much a racing setup, will not be water proof at all.
the pants fit pretty well, but not even sure if id wear em.
well the gloves are so warm and comfy and the helmet 'Shoei Raid 2' matte black sits well on me head, only clear visor and went to buy a reflective ($150-) or dark tint ($100-) didnt expect that much, where else can i get sum cheaper ones from?

Latte

16th August 2011, 18:20

shonofear

16th August 2011, 19:02

Ebay UK I got a smoke and an iridium for $120 landed for my raid II.
Not genuine but does the job.

yea nice, thats more like it. just the waiting time now...

shonofear

26th August 2011, 12:50

hey,
i think my Bandit has a few flatish spots as well.
gonna open her up this Saturday and check the usuals before I head out to Hampton race track on Sunday for a spin.
but was thinking would be good to get together with a few other Bandit 250's so see/feel how my bike compares and see if its in the normal operation mode.

Where abouts are you at Maggot?
im at Kingsland.

cheers