Electrical gurus?

[ducatilover]

I have a nice little charging issue with the ZZR600.
Under 2500-3000rpm or so the voltage (With headlight on) is around 12.2-12.4v. With no electrical load it's making 14v (+/- .2v) from 1700rpm upwards.
When on the open road with the headlight on it's charging happily at around the 14-14.2ish mark.
I can see the voltage gauge drop when brakes are applied and it fluctuates when the indicators are on.
The reg/rec is 1000km/3 months max old.
I have been through several stators.
The battery is fairly new and have tested it with another battery in place, no change.

The charging issue story;
I rode the bike from Woodville to Bunnythorpe when moving houses, it began to over charge (16v).
Reg/rec got replaced, one of the wires was burned (Not from the stator, one of the outputs)
I then put a 600D motor in to replace the sad and weary 400K motor.
The bike ran and charged nicely for about 300km when it stopped charging.
The stator was kaput. Replaced it with the one from the 400K motor.
Same story again, the stator had shorted itself out on one of the poles.
I re-wound the 600D stator with 0.8mm enameled wire (God it took ages) with 30 windings per pole, which was how I unwound it.

That decided to earth itself out, but, I fixed that and this is where I have ended up.
I rewound the shorted poles on the 400K stator and Bogan soldered it up (My soldering iron is a joke)
It made no difference.
When I put the motor in, I cleaned the earth for the battery, will have to re check this.
The current stator is within spec according to the manual, it's at 0.4ohm when the engine is warm.


:facepalm: Help. :crybaby:

[gammaguy]

get a new or rewound stator.

from a professional

no offence

[ducatilover]

get a new or rewound stator.

from a professional

no offence

I wouldn't be surprised if my stodgy stator was the problem :facepalm:

But, why would it play up, it's right in the middle of what Kawasaki says is ideal in terms of resistance.

[SilentDtH]

I have an idea, I'm no electrical guru but what do you think of this theory...

Sounds like when the "accessories" (lights, indicators, brake lights) come on the voltage is bottoming out. Possibly the accessory wire loom is earthing somewhere... a worn through cable perhaps? Or if that was the case, would it be bottoming out all the time?

[ducatilover]

I have an idea, I'm no electrical guru but what do you think of this theory...

Sounds like when the "accessories" (lights, indicators, brake lights) come on the voltage is bottoming out. Possibly the accessory wire loom is earthing somewhere... a worn through cable perhaps? Or if that was the case, would it be bottoming out all the time?

The accessory loom only has two earths, I'll check to see if it's earthing between them, but, the light etc all work well, it's just the low revs charging that's the problem

[gammaguy]

I wouldn't be surprised if my stodgy stator was the problem :facepalm:

But, why would it play up, it's right in the middle of what Kawasaki says is ideal in terms of resistance.

the resistance test is static.you need to test it dynamically to be sure.this is more difficult but essential.

[ducatilover]

the resistance test is static.you need to test it dynamically to be sure.this is more difficult but essential.

Output voltage or current?
Bogan tested the current with an inductive ammeter (Didn't have an ammeter at hand) but I cannot remember the results it yielded :facepalm:

[bogan]

You forgot to mention the reg/rect is from a CH125. Could be inefficient at the higher currents it isn't designed for, or could be a bit fucked from when the first stator went.

[bogan]

the resistance test is static.you need to test it dynamically to be sure.this is more difficult but essential.

We did a voltage test on all the outputs, checked out ok. And it goes fine when the rpm is over 5k, which I thought would be harder on the stator rather than easier?

[ducatilover]

You forgot to mention the reg/rect is from a CH125. Could be inefficient at the higher currents it isn't designed for, or could be a bit fucked from when the first stator went.
:yes: Touche.

The reg/rec is a CH125 6pin jobbie for reference.

On the other hand, I had reg/rec number three in there, the 600 one, it was charging the same down low.

[NinjaNanna]

We did a voltage test on all the outputs, checked out ok. And it goes fine when the rpm is over 5k, which I thought would be harder on the stator rather than easier?

More revs = more electrickery = more load that it can supply.

What revs does it need to be doing to supply 13.5-13.8V with headlight on high beam? If it can do that within an acceptable rev range then I'd not worry too much about it and just ride it.

[bogan]

More revs = more electrickery = more load that it can supply.

What revs does it need to be doing to supply 13.5-13.8V with headlight on high beam? If it can do that within an acceptable rev range then I'd not worry too much about it and just ride it.

Exactly, it can supply more load, so the stator must be under more load/stress was my thinking. However an inefficient reg/rect would be fine when it get more power, but not supply enough when it isn't.

Think it was about 4k. I think (I don't have a voltage gauge so can't be sure) I had similar problems last year and ended up blowing the rest of the reg about 350km from home.

[ducatilover]

More revs = more electrickery = more load that it can supply.

What revs does it need to be doing to supply 13.5-13.8V with headlight on high beam? If it can do that within an acceptable rev range then I'd not worry too much about it and just ride it.

Upwards of 4000rpm, it drains the battery around town, which is not the most practical thing ever. :facepalm:
Stator is starting to make more sense now.

[NinjaNanna]

Alrighty then, alternator/generator works as an electro magent in reverse. The moving magnets induce electron flow within the windings of the stator.

The amount of electron flow is determined by number of windings, stength of the magnets, proximity of said magnets to windings, and speed of the spinning magnet.

If the AC volts coming off the windings are too low (you want at least 20v ac) at low revs then your problem lies there, if they're OK then it likely lies in the reg/rect.

[ducatilover]

Cool, thanks heaps, will get to testing it sometime tomorrow. :yes:

[pete376403]

Go here; http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfault.htm more info than you knew existed for charging circuit fault finding. Ignore the fact at it is at a Suzuki site - they all work the same way. You will need a voltmeter, a cheap digital from Dick Smith is adequate, as long as it does AC and DC volts and resistance.
This site has a whole tutorial about charging systems, including how to rewind your own stator

[bogan]

Go here; http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfault.htm more info than you knew existed for charging circuit fault finding. Ignore the fact at it is at a Suzuki site - they all work the same way. You will need a voltmeter, a cheap digital from Dick Smith is adequate, as long as it does AC and DC volts and resistance.
This site has a whole tutorial about charging systems, including how to rewind your own stator

Bloody good fault finding chart eh! We actually had it printed out and were referring to it the first few times, found the stator ground short the first time, but now it doesn't point to any faults.

Winding guide and other explanations look good, will have to peruse later.

[ducatilover]

Cheers will start reading the winding guide etc. I have a more than good enough multi meter and can find my way through electrical junk reasonably well, have just never come across anything like this before.

[jonbuoy]

The current stator is within spec according to the manual, it's at 0.4ohm when the engine is warm.

Unless you have a high quality meter that 0.4 ohm isn´t too helpful, a shorted out stator will also read near enough 0.4 ohm as will probably shorting your meter leads together. Its just proves the stator hasn´t gone open circuit. You need an inductance/flyback tester to check coils properly, otherwise swap out.

[ducatilover]

Unless you have a high quality meter that 0.4 ohm isn´t too helpful, a shorted out stator will also read near enough 0.4 ohm as will probably shorting your meter leads together. Its just proves the stator hasn´t gone open circuit. You need an inductance/flyback tester to check coils properly, otherwise swap out.

Meter leads are 0.2 ohm on mine. I'll swap it out and see what happens.

[Brian d marge]

before u go running about , a bulb 12v in series to earth as per sketch, if bulb brightens at anything over Idle on all three, output wires then all is well , try reg/rec /earths etc ( try earth first including earth from stator
Also make sure it isnt a forth wire , black sometimes this is FROM the battery to the stator , and is a different system , some Hondas use it , St1100 and fireblades ( from memory ) 242544

Stephen

[ducatilover]

I'll give that a whirl, cheers. Am just reading up on stator theory, the one i have in there is delta wound, but I'll check to make sure none of the connections are backwards, I imagine that would change the output?