Our fine police force

[bsasuper]

20/20 story on the guy who tried to steal 2 light bulbs, and our fine police force who relentlessly persuied the case and tried stop the story going on air, then contacted 20/20 telling them they are now under criminal investigation.Appalling behaviour from NZ police, especially when it was senior officers trying to cover it up.

[Maha]

I did watch that, and while Ari should not have been there in the first place (using his condition as a cop out does not wash with me, his partner was also there in the building and does not have the same mental condition) ...the ongoing pursuit to convict him of anything is bullshit and a waste of the Courts time.

He did 11 days and got a black eye for his wrong doings...time served.

[Scuba_Steve]

:clap::Police::tugger:

[shrub]

I did watch that, and while Ari should not have been there in the first place (using his condition as a cop out does not wash with me, his partner was also there in the building and does not have the same mental condition) ...the ongoing pursuit to convict him of anything is bullshit and a waste of the Courts time.

He did 11 days and got a black eye for his wrong doings...time served.

The cops were taking the extreme position to stop looting before it started, and that's probably a good idea, but they needed to be a little more flexible. I have a mate who has asbergers, and they get completely and irrationally obsessed with shit to the point where they do really stupid stuff. I agreed with the building owners - give him a major rarking for entering a dangerous place and placing others in danger, give him his lighbulbs so he can put them on his mantlepiece to impress his friends and send him on his way. His partner was trying to get him out so didn't deserve prison.

I agree, he has served 11 days inside and that is plenty and then some. Send him on his way and focus on preventing crime. A workmate of my partner was living in a house that had been red stickered and she and her husband had packed all their possessions up and were waiting for the trucks when their house was torched. The husband had a lifetime collection of baseball memorabilia that went up in smoke.

[Banditbandit]

The cops are in the shit because they clearly beat him up .. now they need to prove their "tough" approach was "right" ...

When was the last time you heard cops admit they were wrong? never going to happen ...

[bsasuper]

The thing that raised my eyebrows was the senior police calling the building owners asking them to not do the story, then calling 20/20 to tell them they are under criminal investigation, for what?, reporting the truth?.his sort of behaviour borders on intimidation.No wonder the junior officers who have contact with the public act like they are god when the senior officers act like this.

[Banditbandit]

The thing that raised my eyebrows was the senior police calling the building owners asking them to not do the story, then calling 20/20 to tell them they are under criminal investigation, for what?, reporting the truth?.his sort of behaviour borders on intimidation.No wonder the junior officers who have contact with the public act like they are god when the senior officers act like this.

Hmmmm .. if this goes to a trial, possibly a jury trial .. there is an argument that says 20/20 are trying to influence a jury - which is illegal ... and the police could be investigating that. It's a difficult argument to sustain .. and difficult to prove in court.

They are in the shit and trying to protect their arses!

[Maha]

Hmmmm .. if this goes to a trial, possibly a jury trial .. there is an argument that says 20/20 are trying to influence a jury - which is illegal ... and the police could be investigating that. It's a difficult argument to sustain .. and difficult to prove in court.

They are in the shit and trying to protect their arses!



He took two light bulbs...the owners of the building dont give a shit and were only notified about two weeks ago that someone was caught inside thier crap building that is going to be pulled down.
Trial by Jury?....:facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

He took two light bulbs...the owners of the building dont give a shit and were only notified about two weeks ago that someone was caught inside thier crap building that is going to be pulled down.
Trial by Jury?....:facepalm:

I'm not sure of the legal situation with the charge - but if he's facing some jail time then he is basically entitled to a trial by jury - it's his choice, not the cops of the prosecution ... it's his legal right ... sure it's a waste of money - the cops could have given him diversion ... saved money - saved their faces ...

Shit in his position I'd take trial by jury - better chance of a Not Guilty verdict ..

[JMemonic]

There was a way diversion could have been achieved.


Inspector Erasmus says Police have also followed correct procedures in
opposing diversion for the alleged offender. Strict criteria must be met in
order for diversion to be an option.


"We have reviewed our decision against the diversion policy and we are
confident we have been entirely consistent with it."


"One of the fundamental requirements of the diversion process is that the
offender needs to be able to make an informed admission of guilt"


Inspector Erasmus says under the Police Adult Diversion Policy the defendant
had the right to have the decision reviewed. This was done at a district
level and later confirmed by Police Prosecution Service, at National
Headquarters and the decision stands.

An admission of guilt would have been a start, next question, demonstrate how as described in the programme whilst laying on the ground he could have been elbowed in the side of the head, its not an easy task without the person doing the elbowing to be laying on the ground as well.

[Banditbandit]

There was a way diversion could have been achieved.



An admission of guilt would have been a start, next question demonstrate how as described in the programme whilst laying on the ground he could have been elbowed in the side of the head, its not an easy task without the person doing the elbowing to be laying on the ground as well.

I thought he had admitted it ... his actions are not the issue ... his state of mind and resulting understanding of the law is the issue ..

[Maha]

There was a way diversion could have been achieved.



An admission of guilt would have been a start, next question, demonstrate how as described in the programme whilst laying on the ground he could have been elbowed in the side of the head, its not an easy task without the person doing the elbowing to be laying on the ground as well.

Richard Low did it to Paul Corozza without any problem...:rockon:

[Paul in NZ]

God - all that effort chasing this poor bugger when real crooks are out there having a bloody field day all over ChCh..... I mean the media even finds one street person living in the condemed hotel and having a high old time.... He was living there....

sigh....

[JMemonic]

I thought he had admitted it ... his actions are not the issue ... his state of mind and resulting understanding of the law is the issue ..

Ah, he has admitted he was on the premises, but not theft, his lawyer is claiming not guilty by reason of mental disability, which would be a problem in the way diversion is set up, I would guess they are claiming mens rea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea), which would rule out the option for the prosecution to grant diversion.

This is use of the media for the defence, funny isn't it when the shoe is on the other foot there is an outcry from the legal eagles about trial by media.

Of course I am not and never will be a lawyer, but during the state of emergency, theft from a abandoned building is looting, and really should it matter who the offender is? I would suggest there is more to this than is being told by both parties.

[Littleman]

Classic. All you guys know fuck all.

Finally some Police bosse/s who have some balls. Can't imagine it will last though as they begin to worry about their Helen appointed careers.

[Usarka]

The cops using bully tactics to stop a story about cops using bully tactics.


Classic. All you guys know fuck all.


Well chosen username. :lol:

[James Deuce]

They should have just shot him. Looters don't deserve taxpayer time or money.

[Oakie]

I would suggest there is more to this than is being told by both parties.
My thoughts to. Perhaps that's why the police are happy for it to go to trial ... so all the facts can come out.

[scissorhands]

Even if the kid had been a total asshole verbally, he has paid already with the 11 days lock up and black eye

It should be finished now. No good mileage can come from this point for the police

[scumdog]

Classic. All you guys know fuck all.


C'mon LM, this KB, where is the requirement to know ANYTHING before letting fly via the keyboard??:blink:

HELL, if it was a prerequisite to know at least 50% of what you're on about before posting on this site, particularly in Rant and Rave, it would be a pretty small site...but probably more informative

'Let the children play'

[Usarka]

Fact one: he's got aspergers.
Fact two: he went into custody without a black eye
Fact three: he came out of it with a black eye

Any more facts from the coppas? :whistle:

[scumdog]

Fact one: he's got aspergers.
Fact two: he went into custody without a black eye
Fact three: he came out of it with a black eye

Any more facts from the coppas? :whistle:

He's a thief?:innocent:

[Usarka]

He's a thief?:innocent:

Lol i thought of that after I posted. Looter i think it is :lol:

[bsasuper]

He's a thief?:innocent:

You must spend a lot of time in hospital, Look before you leap mean anything to you?

[bogan]

C'mon LM, this KB, where is the requirement to know ANYTHING before letting fly via the keyboard??:blink:

HELL, if it was a prerequisite to know at least 50% of what you're on about before posting on this site, particularly in Rant and Rave, it would be a pretty small site...but probably more informative

'Let the children play'

As was said in another thread, the way the police force are used to enforce what most consider bullshit laws on the road, may lead to the public losing respect for them. Perhaps the 'fact-less' outcry against cops here is a symptom of that?

[Usarka]

You must spend a lot of time in hospital, Look before you leap mean anything to you?

Funnily enough you're not entirely wrong :facepalm:

[Winston001]

Fact one: he's got aspergers.
Fact two: he went into custody without a black eye
Fact three: he came out of it with a black eye

Any more facts from the coppas? :whistle:

Hang on - that isn't fair.

Fact 1 - there was an earthquake which killed 158 people

Fact 2 - a lawful state of civil emergency was in place

Fact 3 - the defendant was found by the police to be unlawfully in a building without colour of right

Fact 4 - the defendant was attempting to remove property for which he had no right or title

Fact 5 - the police are entitled to charge an offender whether the victim wants that or not. That's essential for example in domestic disputes when the wife often forgives her abusive husband next day.

Prima facie Conclusion - the defendant was looting a building during a civil emergency. He is entitled to a trial and might get lucky but the police have done exactly what you and I expect of them. Imagine the outcry if they'd given him a pat on the head and let him go. :shit:

Its common enough in other countries for looters to be shot. Its a nasty crime beyond simple burglary or theft.

[Usarka]

Hang on - that isn't fair.

.......

Its common enough in other countries for looters to be shot. Its a nasty crime beyond simple burglary or theft.

True. I'd have had absolutely no issues with the cops giving a looter the bash.

But IF all facts have been presented i'd be quite happy with ok, you have issues, we gave you the bash lets call it quits.

Note - my nephews autistic so i'm probably slightly biased.....

[Winston001]

I would guess they are claiming mens rea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea), which would rule out the option for the prosecution to grant diversion.



Agreed, good post. In fact even the actus reas could be questioned - he might have been heroically saving the light bulbs/fittings from destruction. :D

[scumdog]

You must spend a lot of time in hospital, Look before you leap mean anything to you?


No.
&
No.

Should it?

[SPman]

Its common enough in other countries for looters to be shot. Its a nasty crime beyond simple burglary or theft. especially for the light bulbs concerned........

I have tar, feathers, a stout piece of cordage with room for a neck.

crossbeam, anyone..........

[Usarka]

No.
&
No.

Should it?

I thought he was talking to me! I wouldn't make a good make a great cop obviously. Taxi driver maybe.....

[Mully]

especially for the light bulbs concerned........

I have tar, feathers, a stout piece of cordage with room for a neck.

crossbeam, anyone..........

*gasp*

Revenue idea - public stocks. Sell the right for the high and mighty to throw rotten fruit at the hoi polloy.

Brilliant

(FWIW, I didn't watch the piece and I don't really give a rat's)

[JMemonic]

My thoughts to. Perhaps that's why the police are happy for it to go to trial ... so all the facts can come out.

I was thinking along the same lines, but as I understand it to get diversion you have to admit guilt, and his lawyer has said not guilty on his behalf, the next step in the process I guess is trial.

I have to say I do feel some sympathy for the bloke, he does have a disorder which is documented and understood, his obsession is electrical fittings, but he also knows right from wrong.

I am dubious of the claims on how he gained his injuries, and dont understand why his friend/partner told him to hide from the police when the sensible thing to do would have been to request assistance, if he had simply come out and said thank god your here, my friend is in there and has and obsessive disorder, I need help to get him out, perhaps the situation may have been different.

[shrub]

He's a thief?:innocent:

Thank fuck he wasn't speeding. What angers :angry:me is that police waste their time chasing halfwits with a lightbulb fetish when there are people breaking the speed limit.

[tri boy]

It will revisit court.
The beak will close it off, with no extra punishment and a bit of a speech, and they will all go home for tea n scones.
Both parties have made mistakes.
Decisions made in testing times and pressured situations arn't always the best.

I am surprised that he received physical harm though, as it is obvious that Ari has a slightly different outlook on life.
Scummy, he is not a thief. Just a person with a condition that was misread.
MHO

[Maha]

Thank fuck he wasn't speeding. What angers :angry:me is that police waste their time chasing halfwits with a lightbulb fetish when there are people breaking the speed limit.

They wouldn't have seen him had he not been wearing that goofy Hi Viz vest..:corn:

[Woodman]

Time served will be enough and I reckon thats what he will get. The Black eye could have just been a result of the struggle. Its weird how sometimes relatively small knocks can turn into quite major black eyes that look a hell of a lot worse than they are.

But....Did anyone else find it funny that two nancyboys were out stealing lightbulbs ??:sick:

[shrub]

They wouldn't have seen him had he not been wearing that goofy Hi Viz vest..:corn:

Or if he'd been on a bike. The moral of the story if you're going to pinch lightbulbs to display on your mantlepiece don't wear a high vis vest and ride a bike

[scissorhands]

Didnt Aaron Farmer wear a hi-vis vest and ride a bike? Both in Christchurch....

Maybe Cornelius will get some money out of all this?

[Murray]

What hasnt been said is that he had tools on him to commit burglary - The boyfriend said he tried to stop him entering the building, surely he would have known what was in his handbag and known what he was going to do and why did was he carrying tools of the trade if it was a spur of the moment thing. more to this than meets the black eye me thinks

[oneofsix]

What hasnt been said is that he had tools on him to commit burglary - The boyfriend said he tried to stop him entering the building, surely he would have known what was in his handbag and known what he was going to do and why did was he carrying tools of the trade if it was a spur of the moment thing. more to this than meets the black eye me thinks

If you are carrying a screwdriver it is just a screwdriver, if you walk into a collapsed building and start using said screwdriver to remove light fittings then it is tools to commit a burglary, if you use it to stab someone then it becomes a dangerous weapon. Don't read too much into that statement "he had tools on him to commit burglary" it could be as simple as a multi-tool and him using it to clip wires and not a full fledged TV type burglar kit.

[Banditbandit]

If you are carrying a screwdriver it is just a screwdriver, if you walk into a collapsed building and start using said screwdriver to remove light fittings then it is tools to commit a burglary, if you use it to stab someone then it becomes a dangerous weapon. Don't read too much into that statement "he had tools on him to commit burglary" it could be as simple as a multi-tool and him using it to clip wires and not a full fledged TV type burglar kit.

Yeah .. most of us bikers frequently carry "tools to commit burglary" .. just have a look in the toolkit with your bike ...

[Swoop]

...he does have a disorder which is documented and understood
Cool.
Tourette's sufferers will have an excuse to do more stuff.



Fuck you fucking cunts, I'm off to fucking rob a cunting bank.:woohoo:

[JMemonic]

Cool.
Tourette's sufferers will have an excuse to do more stuff.



Fuck you fucking cunts, I'm off to fucking rob a cunting bank.:woohoo:

Sweet make sure you get a bank that actually has money, not just some place that issues plastic cards to get fees off you, ring ahead if you can tell them you need to withdraw several million dollars as ransom so they will have cash on hand. :yes:

[Swoop]

Sweet make sure you get a bank that actually has money
Cheers for the tip! I'll avoid kiwibank then.:woohoo:

[shrub]

Decisions made in testing times and pressured situations arn't always the best...I am surprised that he received physical harm though, as it is obvious that Ari has a slightly different outlook on life.MHO

A lot of the army were TF, and he was probably wired, stressed and feeling very gung ho about things and ready to use available force to defuse a situation. Personally I don't blame him because those were very weird times and a lot of people did some strange and peculiar shit. The mistake was the hierarchy deciding to make something of it, they should have just kicked his skinny arse and sent him on his way.

Then you have what happened to the infamous John Walker Lindh (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/10/john-walker-lindh-american-taliban-father?INTCMP=SRCH). Not dissimilar, but much more extreme injustice.

[Winston001]

True. I'd have had absolutely no issues with the cops giving a looter the bash.

But IF all facts have been presented i'd be quite happy with ok, you have issues, we gave you the bash lets call it quits.

Note - my nephews autistic so i'm probably slightly biased.....

Understood. I have an interest in Aspergers because I observe it in people but don't understand it. Possibly 5% of the population have some degree of autism.

[Winston001]

Just a quick elaboration on our criminal justice system.

There are four levels:

1. An offence is committed but the Police/MAF/Customs etc decide it is low level and just give a warning.

2. Its a first offence, not serious, and the police offer Diversion. The offender is charged but so long as they recognise they are guilty, apologise to any victims, do some community-type work and/or make a donation to charity, the charge is withdrawn after 3 months.

3. The offender is charged and either pleads gulity or defends the charge. Mostly there is no jury trial but more serious charges have that option.

4. If the offender is found guilty. At this point the Judge has a decision to convict and sentence: impose a fine/community work/probation/prison. Or...discharge without conviction = no record, or convict and discharge without further penalty.

Much compassion has been expressed for the unfortunate young man in this case. However his intellectual limitations are best assessed at trial, or at sentencing. That is when compassion can be shown and often is in the justice system.

Which reminds me, many of the people who appear in District Courts have mental health problems. We hear public outrage on talkback about criminals and weak judges but few citizens have ever spent hours watching the sad parade of humanity our courts see every day.

[scissorhands]

I observe it in people but don't understand it.

Neither do the police. I was taking with a cop and they have no training in dealing with autism. Hence this story and Aaron Farmer in the media.

[gammaguy]

i wonder what would have happened if the building had collapsed on the harmless little guy,and the cops said"oh well,he was a few sandwiches short of a picnic,pretty harmless wee fella,so we let him go and get his light bulbs"

yeah right.

the law applies to everyone and the cops arent meant to be selective about who it applies to

[JMemonic]

Understood. I have an interest in Aspergers because I observe it in people but don't understand it. Possibly 5% of the population have some degree of autism.

Ahh:sherlock: that explains Nick Smith

[Scuba_Steve]

Well charges have been dropped.
after wasting alot of our money on a frivolous case, charges have finally been dropped.

Stuff article (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5484757/Charges-dropped-against-autistic-looter)

[scumdog]

Happiness all round:
He gets off
And all those that thought he should not have been charged are pleased.

[oneofsix]

By the looks of it this guy is now better off than if he had been given diversion.

[scissorhands]

Makes you wonder who are the real retards for not dropping this sooner?

11 days locked up and a black eye for a couple of lightbulbs... and all the clever crims are making off with valuable shit all day long, everyday.

Nice work constables! All the nation( and international autistic community:shit::shit:) is in awe.

CHch is getting a reputation around the world, the words I remember from international forums were: '....appalling'... '...I'm glad my autistic sister lives in Auckland'...

[Road kill]

I still think the fucker was guilty.<_<

[BoristheBiter]

I still think the fucker was guilty.<_<

Well he is. He stole 2 light bulbs.

[FJRider]

Understood ... Possibly 5% of the population have some degree of autism.

And then there's the 80% of the population that show signs of it ... and have no excuse ... <_< :shifty: :shit:

[pete376403]

Well he is. He stole 2 light bulbs.

So you've never taken a pen home from work, or anything like that?

[James Deuce]

So you've never taken a pen home from work, or anything like that?
It was NOTHING like that. Irrespective of of his diagnosis he's a looter. He deserved a bullet on the spot. Along with a lot of other people, including some who are still looting.

[BoristheBiter]

So you've never taken a pen home from work, or anything like that?

Yes i have and it is still called theft.
So whats your point?

[pete376403]

Yes i have and it is still called theft.
So whats your point?
Them with out sin, chucking the first stone, etc

[BoristheBiter]

Them with out sin, chucking the first stone, etc

Yep and I was arrested and charged with theft, went to court, found guilty and paid the fine.
So tell me why should this gezza get let off? (not talking about the bash bit)

[James Deuce]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5494345/CTV-victims-room-burgled-after-earthquake

Another looter. Shoot him.

[BoristheBiter]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5494345/CTV-victims-room-burgled-after-earthquake

Another looter. Shoot him.

Maybe he should claim that he's autistic and he might have got off as well.

[jazfender]

It was NOTHING like that. Irrespective of of his diagnosis he's a looter. He deserved a bullet on the spot. Along with a lot of other people, including some who are still looting.

You seem to have some difficulties with what it means for someone to deserve something.

If an act is committed as compelled without choice or without an understanding of the choices taken, I hope most reasonable people would agree that the suspect should not be held accountable in the same way as someone with clear understanding.

Otherwise it's like charging a bank teller who opens a safe at gunpoint for being an accessory of the theft.