Architects, designers, builders, here?

[Colapop]

I have AutoCAD 2012 for my own use and have been playing with a couple of house design ideas. The basic idea I have is that I'd like to design a house with a large concrete wall (maybe) as a passive solar storage device and run beams off it to a glass panel wall and create large open living areas. I'd like to make it a cheap as possible but utilise as many 'green' design features as possible. Anyone have any info on green design?

[Laava]

You are not talking about a cheap house. What sort of money do you have to spend roughly and what size floor area?

[Colapop]

Dunno - What is the $/m2 ratio these days? I want to try and employ facets of design that aren't specific green design cost items. Like a concrete wall that distributes heat?

As an aside - what is cheaper - concrete or timber on piles? I don't have access to a Rawlinsons or the memory to QS the project

[Laava]

How long is a piece of string? I can build a house for $1000m2 but I wouldn't want to live in it! Prob the average Golden homes type 3 brm would be around $1500 but you could be looking at double! There are so many factors that would influence that. If you can come up with a design yourself, then you would be best to then take it to a draughtsman to draw it up. This is the point you can start pricing. There is no magic program that spits out plans, they all require hard work and if that is not your field of expertise then you are going to have to pay someone to do it. A plain conc wall is cheap enough to build but it is all the extra stuff that you don't see that costs so much money. Such as; heating system pipework/wiring, engineering, insulation, fittings, specialist steelwork, specialist conc laying/finishing etc.

[Colapop]

Yeah I do have some draughting/design exp. Just trying to think around an issue rather than buy an off the shelf solution. Probable floor area around 220m2 and guessing quality of build around 1700 - 1900 /m2.
I'd like to use Glulam beams or timber for any large spans as opposed to steel. It'll probably be two level and def double glazed.
I haven't used steel framing but gather it's not too bad - your thoughts?

[JimO]

around 2k a m2 but if you want green fancy shit you can double it

[Brett]

I have AutoCAD 2012 for my own use and have been playing with a couple of house design ideas. The basic idea I have is that I'd like to design a house with a large concrete wall (maybe) as a passive solar storage device and run beams off it to a glass panel wall and create large open living areas. I'd like to make it a cheap as possible but utilise as many 'green' design features as possible. Anyone have any info on green design?

Mate, I am happy to help where I can with advice etc. I have done a few houses and looked at various case studies on ESD design principles etc. It is fundamentally simple when it boils down to it, but it is important to always keep usability in mind as well.

Passive heat sinks are a fantastic idea. I don't think enough building are designed around trapping and holding heat in winter and being cool in summer. Just be aware of how the building will operate as a whole.

Not an architect, but am/was a construction manager and managed the end to end process, so I know how the the architectural design end works.

[Brett]

Dunno - What is the $/m2 ratio these days? I want to try and employ facets of design that aren't specific green design cost items. Like a concrete wall that distributes heat?

As an aside - what is cheaper - concrete or timber on piles? I don't have access to a Rawlinsons or the memory to QS the project

Mate, this the piece of string type question. It all depends on how you put the structure together, the levels of finishes, whether you build it yourself (ie project manage it) or get a someone in to be the main contractor and you are effectively hands off. Also, are you going to be calling in mates rates on anything? I just built our house, pretty high spec by all accounts, called in favours from brother who is a sparky, did all the floor tiling myself (paid tiler to do all tiled showers) even installed the insulation myself etc. and brought it in at just on $1300/m2. This was about 3 years ago. A main contractor would charge about $2500-$2700/m2 for the equivalent house without me having to do anything other than sign cheques. But hey, I really had to work hard to make the savings I did, and the relationships I had with some suppliers etc. really made a massive difference as they really came to the party when I told them it was my own place.

As for the concrete slab vs timber piles query, this largely depends on the nature of the earth works on the site. if they were both on a dead level site, they would be within 10% of each other. However, they are usually used in very varying types of geotechnical environments, so it is very hard to compare. On a very steep site, poles can be much cheaper. Don't forget, your concrete slab can be one of your biggest thermal masses used to trap heat... The whole "green" thing is just a catch phrase. What you are really talking about is employing construction methodologies to best harness the natural properties of the materials and where possible to exploit them even further than what they would normally be capable of.

I can email you a copy of 2006 (I think) Rawlinsons, but to be fair, this is not a great way to gauge cost IMO. best thing is to come up with a concept design, get it to a point where you can get cost estimates and then adjust from there as necessary.

[fuknKIWI]

Talk to the insurance companies they're telling people you can heaps with fuck all:shutup:

[Brett]

Yeah I do have some draughting/design exp. Just trying to think around an issue rather than buy an off the shelf solution. Probable floor area around 220m2 and guessing quality of build around 1700 - 1900 /m2.
I'd like to use Glulam beams or timber for any large spans as opposed to steel. It'll probably be two level and def double glazed.
I haven't used steel framing but gather it's not too bad - your thoughts?

I think that if you are going to manage it yourself, your budget is achievable. Just be willing to look for deals, such as end of run carpets etc. We got some Villeroy& Boch hand basins for the bathroom that usually retail/trade at $1500 each or so (just for the ceramic basin) for $299 each because they were brought in as samples to show Mico staff, were all still in boxes, never opened.

On the timber beams thing, there is a limit to the extent to which timber can span, but on a house of 220m2 I doubt your spans are going to be anything huge, but the prenail boys will be able to help you on this. Size up what you need and give them a call, they will tell you whether it is doable or not. Every glulam or ganglam beam is a "specifically engineered" items.
Steel framing as opposed to prenail timber is awesome. It is however a lot less flexible in terms of changes post manufacture, but that isn't to say it can't be changed. Just a bit more of a pain in the arse, thats all. I build our houses with timber framing, but that is more a familiarity thing really, I would be more than happy to build something out of steel as well.

[mashman]

I'd love to go for some form of dome (http://www.domeincorporated.com/index.html) or rounded oblong with as much glass in it as possible, tile the floors and build internal walls of concrete for heatsinks...

[flyingcrocodile46]

I have AutoCAD 2012 for my own use and have been playing with a couple of house design ideas. The basic idea I have is that I'd like to design a house with a large concrete wall (maybe) as a passive solar storage device and run beams off it to a glass panel wall and create large open living areas. I'd like to make it a cheap as possible but utilise as many 'green' design features as possible. Anyone have any info on green design?

http://www.nzgbc.org.nz/main/greenstar

A good place to start for local benchmark criteria. I recall Googling green design a few years back and was blown away by the number of different and simple clever ideas. It would be worth spending a couple of weeks checking it all out to see what range of ideas can work with the design concept you want then evaluate them to work out the best solution for your budget. It isn't really possible to give an estimate for a M2 rate without a pretty detailed scoping of the build, but would suggest that you budget upward of $2.3k M2 for a serious attempt at a 3 star or better rating.

[Brett]

http://www.nzgbc.org.nz/main/greenstar

A good place to start.

A good resource, agreed. Only worked with them once, doing a 10,000m2 commercial office/retail building in Greenlane to 4 star standard. Was interesting, I learnt a helluva lot going through the whole process. Including some things that ESD proponents love that I think are shit, such as low VOC glues, they just didn't work! Although, they have come a long long way in the last 3 or 4 years.

Just confirming colapop, you just want the ESD principles, not really wanting to get house officially rated?

[fokky]

Heaps of info on earth building,permaculture and alternative energy sites.Just have to sift out the hippy woven yaks tails and peddling a bike to run ya microwave crap.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Heaps of info on earth building,permaculture and alternative energy sites.Just have to sift out the hippy woven yaks tails and peddling a bike to run ya microwave crap.

Lol. I found some of the "hippy" (or semi hippy) ideas to be the more interesting. But not so practical or visually appealing.

[Colapop]

Just confirming colapop, you just want the ESD principles, not really wanting to get house officially rated?
Agreed - ESD principles - not the whole star rating deal. I want to apply some simple things to a straight forward functional design without having to recycle my own shit or weave my mrs shaven pubic hairs into insulation. I'm keen on the idea of a passive heat sink and the directed flow of heated air within a design.
I'll be PM on the job as well as Main Contractor. The house will eventually become a second house on the property and likely rented out so I'm considering fairly hardy materials (plywood interior lining) and not high end fittings. But we'll be living in it for a bit so I don't want it to be too crappy!

[Brett]

Agreed - ESD principles - not the whole star rating deal. I want to apply some simple things to a straight forward functional design without having to recycle my own shit or weave my mrs shaven pubic hairs into insulation. I'm keen on the idea of a passive heat sink and the directed flow of heated air within a design.
I'll be PM on the job as well as Main Contractor. The house will eventually become a second house on the property and likely rented out so I'm considering fairly hardy materials (plywood interior lining) and not high end fittings. But we'll be living in it for a bit so I don't want it to be too crappy!

In terms of a durable interior lining, plywood is a good option, but to be able to get a nice finish you need to use high grade stuff with a nice surface finish which is not even close to cheap when compared to plasterboard. A good alternative is Elephant board (they do a multiboard which is more dense than standard boards like British Plasterboard or std GIB and is very cost effective. Also usually has a better/finer paper lining so the paint finish is better). Another option would be tongue and groove timber that you slot together. Can look really smart when painted, especially if the rest of the house is kind of sparse, and is very durable. Have you considered building the whole thing out of masonry blocks with a smooth plaster finish to the inside walls?

Sounds like you are after something practical and simple but sensible in its design for energy maximisation and limiting heat loss. I think that you budgeted figures will be plenty to achieve this.

[SPman]

Bejeezuz but NZ housing costs are high, if the figures you guys are throwing around are realistic......
best thing is to come up with a concept design, get it to a point where you can get cost estimates and then adjust from there as necessary. Wot he said - spend some time getting the design right for the site -a little sensible design goes a long way.

[Swoop]

a little sensible design...
If you are referring to architects, that is a fine oxymoron.


A good friend is an architect and even he says "the only thing to stay inside an architect's head for longer than an hour is a cold"!

[Colapop]

Architects come up with weird ideas, engineers overcomplicate the design so you can't build it and planners make sure you don't know where to build it.

Chippies just ask you what you want and build it without the bullshit.

[SPman]

Chippies just ask you what you want and build it without the bullshit. Chippies just ask you want you want, then build their version of what you might want if you were them!......

[Winston001]

I feel sort of excited on your behalf Cola. I looked into environmental house design 15 years ago in my obsessive/compulsive way. :D Sadly my wishes were ahead of the times but I learned a lot.

For example, calculated the sun's peak in Central Otago, which is 30 minutes later in the day than official midday, then orientated the house as close to that as I could - 10 degrees off true North.

Thermal mass was a wish but not achieved. The compromise was over-spec insulation and full double-glazing.

The Ministry of Energy published a free booklet on efficient design but that was more than a decade ago.

[Winston001]

Just to add that the public library had plenty of good books on solar design when I was looking. The so-called "green" ideas are not new or even difficult but for some reason we have forgotten them. Hopi Indians were building thermal mass and passive ventilation 3000 years ago.

My (laymans) opinion is to heavily insulate (for both warming and cooling) and work up from there. Internal noise insulation can be important too. Clerestory windows put light deep into the house, and also help with ventilation.

Simple is best. The biggest hurdle you face is that NZ is earthquake prone, experiences strong weather systems, and gets a fair amount of rain. Oh - and we tend to build on swamps or slippery clay hillsides. All of which puts our building standards among the highest in the world. Which you are now going to be paying for...:facepalm: Best of luck.

[BMWST?]

I think that if you are going to manage it yourself, your budget is achievable. Just be willing to look for deals, such as end of run carpets etc. We got some Villeroy& Boch hand basins for the bathroom that usually retail/trade at $1500 each or so (just for the ceramic basin) for $299 each because they were brought in as samples to show Mico staff, were all still in boxes, never opened.

On the timber beams thing, there is a limit to the extent to which timber can span, but on a house of 220m2 I doubt your spans are going to be anything huge, but the prenail boys will be able to help you on this. Size up what you need and give them a call, they will tell you whether it is doable or not. Every glulam or ganglam beam is a "specifically engineered" items.
Steel framing as opposed to prenail timber is awesome. It is however a lot less flexible in terms of changes post manufacture, but that isn't to say it can't be changed. Just a bit more of a pain in the arse, thats all. I build our houses with timber framing, but that is more a familiarity thing really, I would be more than happy to build something out of steel as well.

dont ring the boys at prenail if you gonna use steel framing....we very rarely see steel beams in houses now.Even 4.8 garage door lintels can be Timber now unless they have more than normal roof loads on them.You will still see steel beams if you have large open spaces on the lower level of a two storey house.Its getting to the point where you can have floor spans which push NZS3604 to limit without using steel

[skinman]

also there is a program called DesignIt put out by CarterHolt for HySpans & Hyjoist. Try & stay within 3604 if possible as glulams are more expensive than standard timber. For instance you wouldnt want all your floor joists to be Hyjoists. 240x45 MSG8 is cheaper so when designing consider upper to lower floor alignment to keep spans down.
Be aware a new 3604 has just been released. Using it is optional at the moment but that will change, just not sure when yet.
The internet is your friend. Look at lots of plans & visit showhomes looking for ideas. Take photos of houses you like also if you see any when driving around.

[BMWST?]

also there is a program called DesignIt put out by CarterHolt for HySpans & Hyjoist. Try & stay within 3604 if possible as glulams are more expensive than standard timber. For instance you wouldnt want all your floor joists to be Hyjoists. 240x45 MSG8 is cheaper so when designing consider upper to lower floor alignment to keep spans down.
Be aware a new 3604 has just been released. Using it is optional at the moment but that will change, just not sure when yet.
The internet is your friend. Look at lots of plans & visit showhomes looking for ideas. Take photos of houses you like also if you see any when driving around.

hyjoist are actually very economical way to get good floor spans and quality.The new 3604 is out and timber spans have decreased again I think.we use gluelams etc because a lot of "normal stuff cant be done with "normal msg8"(eg timber lintels,rafters joists etc)

[ellipsis]

...after the events that have transpired since sept last year, and the subsequent testing of the different 'systems', under conditions of extreme duress, an overall picture should emerge of whos' fucking who, and whos' not paying...a lot of expensive, designed homes didn't make the grade, along with the older brick stuff...if you want a house that complies, has everything you envisage and ticks all your boxes, you had better have a big pocketfull of cash....as an aside...the real designs that have stood the tests of time are hard to outdo...

[Swoop]

Clerestory windows put light deep into the house, and also help with ventilation.
Clerestory are not the best with thermal qualities though (unless double / triple glazed <--location dependant).

[Spearfish]

tilt slab structure including roof
double glazed windows
straw bale interior, plastered
underfloor heating
stream for a small hydro (big enough to run a decent man cave)
grow your veg and sell the surplus for your grains
cow, goat, pig, for milk, meat etc
change the bike and car to diesel or electric if your not doing high miles
home brew diesel

then
Plan a bike trip around the word on a bike of your choice with your savings...

[Winston001]

...the real designs that have stood the tests of time are hard to outdo...

Agreed. We've been building dwellings for 6000 years designed for the local climate and land. Many houses last for hundreds of years which begs the question - why do ours fall to pieces??


Clerestory are not the best with thermal qualities though (unless double / triple glazed <--location dependant).

Yes but full double glazing is assumed and (I thought) required these days anyway.

[Winston001]

straw bale interior, plastered



Like your ideas except not sure about straw bales. Mouses like them. As do insects. As does water...and water always gets in.

I'm merely a layman but always thought 200-300mm wide earth/mud/cement bricks made sense. Still need bracing, and battens for an airgap and external cladding. Double brick with an air space would be fine? Solid.

[Winston001]

Damn you Cola, you've got my mind working. One inspired example of thermal mass I saw in a book was in a harsh cold North American climate. Triple glazed windows. In the winter, clear 2m acrylic tubes 300mm wide were stood in the windows. Filled with different coloured water, they soaked up the sun and radiated warmth at night. They still let the light in and the colours made a kind of stained glass effect.

Stunning. And very clever.

[Spearfish]

Like your ideas except not sure about straw bales. Mouses like them. As do insects. As does water...and water always gets in.

I'm merely a layman but always thought 200-300mm wide earth/mud/cement bricks made sense. Still need bracing, and battens for an airgap and external cladding. Double brick with an air space would be fine? Solid.

Yeah your right, on top of that there is the threat of electrical faults and fire.

The tilt slab concept makes a waterproof concrete tank the shape of a house.

[The Pastor]

if i wanted to build a green house, i'd make it out of shipping containers. (recycling and all that bs)

http://green.yahoo.com/blog/daily_green_news/8/twelve-amazing-shipping-container-houses.html

[Swoop]

Yes but full double glazing is assumed and (I thought) required these days anyway.
A confusing area. Compulsory double glazing throughout NZ now but repair work can be done to existing house standard.
New extensions could go either way, dependant on the council authority and their policy. They may insist on a new extension having double glazing even though the rest of the house is single glazed.

[Brett]

hyjoist are actually very economical way to get good floor spans and quality.The new 3604 is out and timber spans have decreased again I think.we use gluelams etc because a lot of "normal stuff cant be done with "normal msg8"(eg timber lintels,rafters joists etc)

Yeah, we used posi-struts in a few areas in our house recently built. Still opted for steel in high stress areas. Rather spend the $$ than have the issues associated with an under braced/engineered design.

[Brett]

tilt slab structure including roof
double glazed windows
straw bale interior, plastered
underfloor heating
stream for a small hydro (big enough to run a decent man cave)
grow your veg and sell the surplus for your grains
cow, goat, pig, for milk, meat etc
change the bike and car to diesel or electric if your not doing high miles
home brew diesel

then
Plan a bike trip around the word on a bike of your choice with your savings...

As odd as it sounds, tilt slab CAN be a very good alternative to conventional house construction. I plan on having a crack at one next year for a spec house.

[Winston001]

The tilt slab concept makes a waterproof concrete tank the shape of a house.

This interests me because I've been thinking about simple house design lately. Partly because I'm involved with Habitat for Humanity, partly because of the leaky homes debacle, and partly because of the problems of modern homes in the earthquake.

I understand there is some sort of lightweight concrete which can be used for tilt-slab. Is it porous, and is it strong enough?

[Ocean1]

A confusing area. Compulsory double glazing throughout NZ now

Fully phased in already? I thought it was still just the south and central north...


This interests me because I've been thinking about simple house design lately. Partly because I'm involved with Habitat for Humanity, partly because of the leaky homes debacle, and partly because of the problems of modern homes in the earthquake.

I understand there is some sort of lightweight concrete which can be used for tilt-slab. Is it porous, and is it strong enough?

If I ever build another house, (and, if I do stay well the fuck out of the way 'cause the battle with the many and various regulating authorities will be bloody)... where was I?... Ah yes... it'll be predominantly concrete. It'll probably be a mixture of standard tilt-slab exterior walls with some sort of facade over an air gap/cavity and solid aerated concrete interior walls.

Haven't come across a good lightweight naturally insulated roofing material yet. At least not a commercially available one.

[Spearfish]

This interests me because I've been thinking about simple house design lately. Partly because I'm involved with Habitat for Humanity, partly because of the leaky homes debacle, and partly because of the problems of modern homes in the earthquake.

I understand there is some sort of lightweight concrete which can be used for tilt-slab. Is it porous, and is it strong enough?

I'm not sure about the lightweight concrete part.
The process I watched was basically as follows
almost convention concrete floor was laid with a detail around the edge for the wall panels.
Once the floor was hard enough they laid out what looked like 100x100 steel angle over black plastic sheet to form the panels boxing.
any openings were formed the same way.
Steel mesh was tied in with other rods in various places (less steel was used than I thought would have been
2 domed things for lifting were placed and some threaded sockets
Some officious looking types ticked some boxes then they poured it like a floor but using a concrete vibrator.
they made the next section on the top of the first.
the gable ends were formed as part of the end walls.
they left it for about 3 or 4 weeks to cure I guess
A crane turned up with a truck load of acrrow props fitted with pivoting ends.
The panels were stood in a day and supported by the props screwed into the threaded sockets.
The outside was plastered the inside was gibed over battens.

The details of the floor or how the panels were joined I didn't see unfortunately.

[Swoop]

Fully phased in already? I thought it was still just the south and central north...
:yes:
The changes are being progressively applied across the country during 2008. They apply now in zone 3 (the South Island, and the North Island's central plateau). They'll apply in zone 2 from 30 June 2008 and in zone 1 from 30 September 2008.

[Ocean1]

:yes:
The changes are being progressively applied across the country during 2008. They apply now in zone 3 (the South Island, and the North Island's central plateau). They'll apply in zone 2 from 30 June 2008 and in zone 1 from 30 September 2008.

Classic.

"we're from the government and we're here to help."

About $4k extra on the cost of a house. $4k very few people chose to spend left to their own devices.

And they wonder why houses are unaffordable...

[flyingcrocodile46]

Agreed. We've been building dwellings for 6000 years designed for the local climate and land. Many houses last for hundreds of years which begs the question - why do ours fall to pieces??


Yes but full double glazing is assumed and (I thought) required these days anyway.

Double glazing isn't mandatory anywhere in NZ. It is only one part of one Acceptable Solution to NZBC compliance.

We have only been building here in NZ for approx 200 years. Our weather/environmental conditions are somewhat unique in the world and is problematic in respect to propagation of Molds and Fungi which eat away at cellulose fibre materials such as timber.

As opposed to many countries who build structures and clad in stone, we mostly use timber structure and cheaper cladding systems. Mostly we don't build in stone/brick because unlike a lot of the world we live in a earthquake zone and stone/brick can't be relied on to not collapse (in mild or moderate earthquakes) unless it is secured to a braced structure (which is typically timber here in NZ).

I'm merely a layman but always thought 200-300mm wide earth/mud/cement bricks made sense. Still need bracing, and battens for an airgap and external cladding. Double brick with an air space would be fine? Solid.

The NZBC allows construction of earth brick homes as an Acceptable Solution (can't be refused consent or CCC as long as it is constructed in accordance with NZS 4299 Earth "buildings not requiring specific design"). Cavities and exterior cladding are not required as long as the bricks meet the Standards erodibility/eave width blah, blah!.... "Table 2.2 – Site specific building limiting erodibility indices for different wind zones, wall exposures, eaves heights and widths in areas with up to 2000 mm per year average rainfallrequirements"

A confusing area. Compulsory double glazing throughout NZ now but repair work can be done to existing house standard.
New extensions could go either way, dependant on the council authority and their policy. They may insist on a new extension having double glazing even though the rest of the house is single glazed.
Double glazing is not compulsory and often isn't even required in most areas in NZ (and sometimes even in Invergiggle).
The NZBC H1 Energy Efficiency objectives, performance and functional requirements are based around limiting energy used to heat houses rather than setting minimum insulation requirements. Satisfaction of this objective is frequently demonstrated by the Calculation Method and sometimes by the Modeling Method without use of double glazing. For instance if you triple the insulation value of your walls, floor and roof Or your construction design and materials create sufficient mass as a heat sink and you only have a few small windows your energy consumption is stuff all (which is the NZBC objective). Most people don't understand the Calculation and Modeling Methods so choose to use the Schedule Method which stipulates the minimum R values of insulation to be used in walls, floors, roofs and windows (and these are the requirements that vary between zones) However that is their choice. It isn't mandatory.

As for additions and alterations, it rather depends on the size of the work area in respect to the size of the existing house, but basically speaking a sizable addition should be assessed as stand alone (if practical i.e a separate wing) other wise the work should (according to Section 112 of the Building Act 2004) be assessed as being required to "perform to the same or greater extent than previously".


I understand there is some sort of lightweight concrete which can be used for tilt-slab. Is it porous, and is it strong enough?
Yes definitely, and maybe (Depend on whether you want to use it as a structural member and the loadings involved).


The details of the floor or how the panels were joined I didn't see unfortunately.
In Precast and tilt panel the joins are predominantly reliant on only one or two lines of sealant to keep the weather out. (generally less consequence of damage to concrete structures)

[marty]

In terms of a durable interior lining, plywood is a good option, but to be able to get a nice finish you need to use high grade stuff with a nice surface finish which is not even close to cheap when compared to plasterboard. A good alternative is Elephant board (they do a multiboard which is more dense than standard boards like British Plasterboard or std GIB and is very cost effective. Also usually has a better/finer paper lining so the paint finish is better). Another option would be tongue and groove timber that you slot together. Can look really smart when painted, especially if the rest of the house is kind of sparse, and is very durable. Have you considered building the whole thing out of masonry blocks with a smooth plaster finish to the inside walls?

Sounds like you are after something practical and simple but sensible in its design for energy maximisation and limiting heat loss. I think that you budgeted figures will be plenty to achieve this.

ply can be expensive up front, but it's a single handle item (2 if you seal it) as opposed to gibbing, which needs 3 or 4 visits per sheet, super-accurate framing to look good, and experience (read:$$$$) spent to get a good paint-finish

[Brett]

ply can be expensive up front, but it's a single handle item (2 if you seal it) as opposed to gibbing, which needs 3 or 4 visits per sheet, super-accurate framing to look good, and experience (read:$$$$) spent to get a good paint-finish

Yeah, valid point on this.

[BMWST?]

Like your ideas except not sure about straw bales. Mouses like them. As do insects. As does water...and water always gets in.

I'm merely a layman but always thought 200-300mm wide earth/mud/cement bricks made sense. Still need bracing, and battens for an airgap and external cladding. Double brick with an air space would be fine? Solid.

no..they perform very badly in earthquakes.

[Swoop]

Double glazing is not compulsory and often isn't even required in most areas in NZ (and sometimes even in Invergiggle).
The NZBC H1 Energy Efficiency objectives, performance and functional requirements are based around limiting energy used to heat houses rather than setting minimum insulation requirements. Satisfaction of this objective is frequently demonstrated by the Calculation Method and sometimes by the Modeling Method without use of double glazing. For instance if you triple the insulation value of your walls, floor and roof Or your construction design and materials create sufficient mass as a heat sink and you only have a few small windows your energy consumption is stuff all (which is the NZBC objective). Most people don't understand the Calculation and Modeling Methods so choose to use the Schedule Method which stipulates the minimum R values of insulation to be used in walls, floors, roofs and windows (and these are the requirements that vary between zones) However that is their choice. It isn't mandatory.
True. It does, however, come down to the individual territorial authority and how they interpret the rule. With increased nervousness from councils over liability for approving structures, they will be erring on the side of safety from now on.
The only approved double-glazed window solutions are those that have been fully tested. At the moment only aluminium meets that standard, but a serious attempt is being made by timber windows to comply.
Currently only single-glazed timber windows have been tested under 3619 (1979).
The easiest solution (to get approval) will be to double glaze.

[flyingcrocodile46]

True. It does, however, come down to the individual territorial authority and how they interpret the rule. With increased nervousness from councils over liability for approving structures, they will be erring on the side of safety from now on.
The only approved double-glazed window solutions are those that have been fully tested. At the moment only aluminium meets that standard, but a serious attempt is being made by timber windows to comply.
Currently only single-glazed timber windows have been tested under 3619 (1979).
The easiest solution (to get approval) will be to double glaze.

Timber and UPVC window frames provide superior thermal resistance, (though be sure to research your UPVC options very carefully). however the component that most needs to achieve an insulation value (R Value) is the glass rather than the frame as the frame is a very small area compared to the window.

Appraised double glazed window panels can be retro fitted to most existing windows including timber. There may or may not be any NZ timber joinery manufacturers who have a formally tested whole joinery system (don't know) but it isn't needed.

Here's one company making a nice business out of catering to everyone's irrational lust to have double glazing.
http://www.aucklanddoubleglazing.co.nz/

To give an idea as to the significance of double glazing insulation values as opposed to single glazing, here are the NZBC H1 Acceptable Solution R values for Non-solid construction – minimum R-values for schedule method (Climate Zone 1);
Single Glazed = Min R . 19
Double Glazed = Min R . 26
Roofs/ceilings are =>R 2.9
Walls are =>R 1.9
Floor are =>R 1.3
As you can see, the difference between single and double glazing is only R .07 (2% of the value of roof insulation) So it's all a big deal over fuck all :whocares: For my money thermal drapes meet my needs fine but that is too easy.

I know TA's are famous for causing problems for designers in respect to acceptance of detailing on matters of compliance but as far as I am aware, most of the reputation isn't justified and is more likely a symptom of insufficiently detailed compliance with the NZBC by people who often don't have a clue about what the requirements actually are. Of course this can be exasperated by individuals at TA's who also don't know up from down.


If anyone needs more info on the issue here are a couple of helpful sites
http://www.branz.co.nz/H1_support
http://www.consumer.org.nz/news/view/insulated-frames-for-double-glazing

[Grumph]

I see straw bale construction mentioned...for what it's worth there's one just down the road from us in Hororata village. built on a poured slab like the two brick and block houses next to it. The straw house slab is in one piece where the neighbours are broken post September. There's some cosmetic cracking of the rendering inside and out which the owners have already fixed themselves.
I speculate that the lighter mass of the straw house has saved the slab...the neighbours are write offs due to the membrane under the slab being torn and water rising inside...

[skinman]

In response to the aerated concrete comment. from what I know of it from Hebel, good R value but not waterproof. Can be used as mid floor in precast units or lower floor on a block foundation wall. Cannot be used as basement walls retaining and must have an exterior cladding. I believe some plaster finishes are acceptable but more research would be needed. I have thought that it could make a good midfloor as it would be quiet and not have the weight of conventional concrete.
Double Glazing
best thing about it is condensation will not form inside which can save having the sill rot out and also not allow mould growth. It also makes for a quiet house. Will cut down road & aircraft noise.

[porky]

Timber and UPVC window frames provide superior thermal resistance, (though be sure to research your UPVC options very carefully). however the component that most needs to achieve an insulation value (R Value) is the glass rather than the frame as the frame is a very small area compared to the window.

Appraised double glazed window panels can be retro fitted to most existing windows including timber. There may or may not be any NZ timber joinery manufacturers who have a formally tested whole joinery system (don't know) but it isn't needed.

Here's one company making a nice business out of catering to everyone's irrational lust to have double glazing.
http://www.aucklanddoubleglazing.co.nz/




To give an idea as to the significance of double glazing insulation values as opposed to single glazing, here are the NZBC H1 Acceptable Solution R values for Non-solid construction – minimum R-values for schedule method (Climate Zone 1);
Single Glazed = Min R . 19
Double Glazed = Min R . 26
Roofs/ceilings are =>R 2.9
Walls are =>R 1.9
Floor are =>R 1.3
As you can see, the difference between single and double glazing is only R .07 (2% of the value of roof insulation) So it's all a big deal over fuck all :whocares: For my money thermal drapes meet my needs fine but that is too easy.

I know TA's are famous for causing problems for designers in respect to acceptance of detailing on matters of compliance but as far as I am aware, most of the reputation isn't justified and is more likely a symptom of insufficiently detailed compliance with the NZBC by people who often don't have a clue about what the requirements actually are. Of course this can be exasperated by individuals at TA's who also don't know up from down.


If anyone needs more info on the issue here are a couple of helpful sites
http://www.branz.co.nz/H1_support
http://www.consumer.org.nz/news/view/insulated-frames-for-double-glazing

Well said, and 100% correct, but then you knew that because you too have been to school. :yes: Thermal bridges and all.

As for the concrete,
Concrete isnt green. In fact it is very grey due to the ingredient called cement that is the most unfriendly of all construction materials manufactured. It has the highest CO2 emmission rate (during the sintering process) and then chuck in the steel smelting and ore extraction.......
Is it a versitile product with some fantastic properties, hell yeah, just not very "green".

Just out of curiosity, have you ever used the modelling method. Seems to be a AS that every one talks about but no one has actually any experience in.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever used the modelling method. Seems to be a AS that every one talks about but no one has actually any experience in.

Seen it twice and struggled to get my head around it fully (wagged school too much) and have far too many more important things to have too absorb. I don't see the consequence of H1 compliance failure as the end of the world and it seldom becomes a matter for litigation.

[Swoop]

UPVC window frames
That is an incredibly small share of the marketplace. A better long-term solution for the homeowner but not the "greenest" process to manufacture.

For my money thermal drapes meet my needs fine but that is too easy.
:yes:
I have the same solution...
Looking at replacing with DG aluminium though.

[Winston001]

To give an idea as to the significance of double glazing insulation values as opposed to single glazing, here are the NZBC H1 Acceptable Solution R values for Non-solid construction – minimum R-values for schedule method (Climate Zone 1);
Single Glazed = Min R . 19
Double Glazed = Min R . 26
Roofs/ceilings are =>R 2.9
Walls are =>R 1.9
Floor are =>R 1.3
As you can see, the difference between single and double glazing is only R .07 (2% of the value of roof insulation) So it's all a big deal over fuck all :whocares: For my money thermal drapes meet my needs fine but that is too easy.



Nice post and great information.

Living in the deep south I've long been interested in keeping warm. The sort of R value information you provide has been difficult to find. Nevertheless I'd come to the conclusion that - theoretically - heavy drapes are better than doubleglazing.

So much for theory. I'm fortunate enough to have full doubleglazing and it is a total win. Not only does it keep the house warmer, it also cuts down outside noise remarkably. I know drapes are good (use them as well) but in the daytime you want the light to come in without losing the heat.