Will the USA default?

[Edbear]

Seems the Western world is going down the gurgler financially and the Eastern world is collapsing into civil war and terrorism. Peaceful and stable countries are being hit by natural disasters of all kinds and the wind is cold in my street. :bye:

The US has until next month to raise money or default and the only way is to take on more borrowing putting the country at risk of owing more than it's worth. The West has been living beyond its means for a very long time and the Piper wants paying, the chickens have all come home to roost and not enough of the eggs layed have hatched.

Europe is scared of the consequences of Italy defaulting as it could lead to the collapse of Europe's economy. So the most powerful nation on Earth, seen as the backstop for everything, is broke! I believe they will pass the legislation to borrow more, but obviously that would only delay the inevitable for a short while. What would happen if the US defaulted?

Russia, China, Hong Kong and Korea have been strangely quiet over the financial issues facing the West, are they playing a waiting game?

[pzkpfw]

Did you mean Greece? Or is Italy going down too?

[Edbear]

Did you mean Greece? Or is Italy going down too?

Italy is next in line. Was on the news yesterday and today.

[Indiana_Jones]

.........I live by the river!

OOO OOO OOOWwwwwwwh!!!!

-Indy

[Banditbandit]

Hmm .. interestng .. who is the US going to borrow from? The implications are that countries are no longer independent and successful entities, but are reliant on the global corporations who hold all the money and dole it out as required .. the corporations are the ones with the real power .. and they can basically buy and sell countries ..

[Banditbandit]

"The west must perish ..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMX_dPEIS4M

[Edbear]

Hmm .. interestng .. who is the US going to borrow from? The implications are that countries are no longer independent and successful entities, but are reliant on the global corporations who hold all the money and dole it out as required .. the corporations are the ones with the real power .. and they can basically buy and sell countries ..

It's all down to the banks in the end, but they are getting nervous as they are leaving themselves vulnerable to default so naturally they are reluctant to bail out whole countries who are broke and can't pay their bills. Of course if they don't, the country goes bankrupt leaving them without income. It's the same as if you went broke in your business, owing a million dollars and asking the bank for another million to pay the first million, even though you can't earn enough to pay it back...

Meantime, you need to live, so you book up more debt to feed your family...

[Banditbandit]

It's all down to the banks in the end, but they are getting nervous as they are leaving themselves vulnerable to default so naturally they are reluctant to bail out whole countries who are broke and can't pay their bills. Of course if they don't, the country goes bankrupt leaving them without income. It's the same as if you went broke in your business, owing a million dollars and asking the bank for another million to pay the first million, even though you can't earn enough to pay it back...

Meantime, you need to live, so you book up more debt to feed your family...

Yes. But step outside the system for a moment and look at what it really is doing ...

[Edbear]

Yes. But step outside the system for a moment and look at what it really is doing ...

Imploding under its own weight of debt?

[racefactory]

What will the effects be if the USA defaults on August 2nd?

[Katman]

What will be the effects globally if the USA defaults on August 2nd?

Dunno, I imagine I'll still have a cone.

[superman]

What will be the effects globally if the USA defaults on August 2nd?

China shall be the new world power. UN shall cease to be important, and the world will become more influenced by Chinese culture than American. Sounds like a good thing to me. Better start learning Mandarin.

[EJK]

China is only matter of time.

[racefactory]

Already know it actually. Have you ever been to China? While we frown upon a lot of things America produces and does around the world, just the thought of China pushing it's influence on the world instead; that scares me shitless.

[Colapop]

The 'money' that is being spoken about is in reality only internet/digital money anyway isn't it? It's not like it's gold that can be held in your hand is it?

[ducatilover]

The 'money' that is being spoken about is in reality only internet/digital money anyway isn't it? It's not like it's gold that can be held in your hand is it?

According to that ridiculous Zeitgeist film :facepalm: as poorly researched as it was, that part could well be correct.
Where and how do we acquire internet money?

[oneofsix]

According to that ridiculous Zeitgeist film :facepalm: as poorly researched as it was, that part could well be correct.
Where and how do we acquire internet money?

with your credit card

[Edbear]

The 'money' that is being spoken about is in reality only internet/digital money anyway isn't it? It's not like it's gold that can be held in your hand is it?

There hasn't been enough gold to cover the world's finances for a long time now. The reality is that there has to be enough "real" money that anyone can go to their bank and withdraw their balance in cash. This is also no longer possible due to the credit society we run. In the news in recent years there have been runs on banks as people panic and demand their money in cash after hearing the bank is in trouble leading to the Government having to chip in and bail the bank out before it goes under. In NZ it happened with South Canterbury Finance.

In short, you borrow $300k for a house mortgage at 7%. Long before you ever pay that back, the bank lends that same $300k plus the balance of the interest income out at an other 7% and so on. So while the actual monies available to the bank at any one time is less than the original $300k, the value of the debtor's ledger is now $600K plus interest. The bank itself, though is now in debt as it has borrowed the extra from another bank at 3% interest in order to pay out the mortgages to the vendor of the houses. This is a simplified explanation, of course.

If you then default on your mortgage, the bank seizes your house and sells it to cover the debt. What happened in the US was that the banks had lent 120% of the value of the house, counting on capital increases to catch up the difference. (Greed and competitive manuevering to gain customers). When that failed, (the interest rates rose and the people couldn't afford the repayments leading to bankruptcy), the bank was left with a house worth 75%, (or less!), the value of the debt which meant the bank was in danger of defaulting on its own borrowings. The ensuing glut of mortgagee sales collapsed the housing market leaving houses worth 30% or less than the mortgage over them. People who paid $450k were forced to sell their home for under $200k leaving them still owing nearly $200k+ with no assets.

The US governement had no choice but to step in and rescue the banks or see the whole US economy collapse. They printed billions of dollars of paper money which, of course, devalued the USD and on top of that had to cut the interest rates to zero to try to encourage people to spend and book up more credit to restore the book balance of the banks. As predicted this was a short term "fix" that was bound to backfire down the track and it has. Now the US Government, having taken on the debts of the people and the banks, is facing bankruptcy itself.

Who's to blame? Everyone who wanted to buy/spend more than they could realistically afford, ie: the consumer booking up too much debt, then the banks for being loose and greedy counting on the economic boom to cover their irresponsible lending, and finally the Governement for taking on debt it couldn't afford and hadn't budgeted for in an attempt to bail everyone out and keep the economy afloat.

[Banditbandit]

The 'money' that is being spoken about is in reality only internet/digital money anyway isn't it? It's not like it's gold that can be held in your hand is it?

Theoretically yes it is.

One result of this is that the US Government can not afford to pay its employees - that's all the federal agencies - FBI ... CIA .. Tax .. Troops ... etc etc ... then the Federal public service collapses .... people don't have jobs (well technically they do, but they won't get paid) .. if they are not getting paid they won't pay mortagegs - so the banks are stuffed anyway ...

The banks I presume are holding security on the loans ... can they seize the security? Could the banks end up owning the US of A?

Be very amusing if the IMF stepped in and imposed conditions on the US.

The basic problem is that the US can not afford the wars it is currently waging. 10 years ago, when Geo W took over the US was trillions of dollars in surplus .. after 8 years (two terms) of a right wong supposedly fiscally responsible government it's trillions and trillions of dollars in debt ..

It's a house of cards and its all falling over ... Just as Marx predicted ..

[Usarka]

Fuck shit arse.

[oneofsix]

Who's to blame? Everyone who wanted to buy/spend more than they could realistically afford, ie: the consumer booking up too much debt, then the banks for being loose and greedy counting on the economic boom to cover their irresponsible lending, and finally the Governement for taking on debt it couldn't afford and hadn't budgeted for in an attempt to bail everyone out and keep the economy afloat.

I would have reordered the who's to blame. Start with the banks as they thought they could take on more risk and therefore make more money out of the gullible public and they then encouraged the public to borrow. The Government because it didn't stop the craziness in the banks and actually enabled them via Fanny May.

[imdying]

Well, when the money train gets derailed sufficiently, we have a world war. My assumption is that's where the world is heading.

Would that be too farfetched?

[Usarka]

Well, when the money train gets derailed sufficiently, we have a world war. My assumption is that's where the world is heading.

Would that be too farfetched?

I can't see the US and Europe rolling over and giving up their way of living to the chinese.

Well nor can the chinese that's why they've built gargantuan underground nuclear submarine bases.

[imdying]

I can't see the US and Europe rolling over and giving up their way of living to the chinese.

Nore can the chineese that's why they've built gargantuan underground nuclear submarine bases.That's what I figured. It doesn't seem like something they're gonna wanna hold hands over :no:

[shrub]

It's a house of cards and its all falling over ... Just as Marx predicted ..

Greed and frenetic consumption has been SO good to us. We (the west) have been living well beyond our means for many, many years and we have been borrowing from people who spent less than they saved to fund that lifestyle.

What frightens me is that we will start to sell our productive assets to cover that debt, and we will end up with a lower income and fewer assets and having to pay for the use of said assets. Selling shares in the energy companies is blindingly stupid because within a few years those shares will be predominantly owned offshore.

I came across something interesting a couple of weeks ago - a local building owner has had his building demolished and the insurance company won't pay out yet. He has a block of valuable CBD land that is earning nothing and costing him money and is unlikely to get a tenantable building for at least a couple of years. He was approached by a Chinese investor who paid over the going rate for the land and is in the process of trying to buy as many blocks as possible. Their intention is to sit on the land until the city comes back, then build and rent to locals. They can wait up to 20 years and are planning to use the land as car parks until they're ready.

[shrub]

I can't see the US and Europe rolling over and giving up their way of living to the chinese.

They won't need to. The Chinese have plenty of money to lend them to keep them afloat and buying the stuff they make. Incidentally, you know all those farmers selling milk products to China? Starter for 10: Where did a lot of the money they used to convert their dairy farms come from?

[Usarka]

They won't need to. The Chinese have plenty of money to lend them to keep them afloat and buying the stuff they make. Incidentally, you know all those farmers selling milk products to China? Starter for 10: Where did a lot of the money they used to convert their dairy farms come from?

There's a big difference between being loaned, and being owned.

[Hack0r]

Whats happening on the 2nd Aug? lol I fly to USA on the 1st!

[george formby]

It's all down to the banks in the end, but they are getting nervous as they are leaving themselves vulnerable to default so naturally they are reluctant to bail out whole countries who are broke and can't pay their bills. Of course if they don't, the country goes bankrupt leaving them without income. It's the same as if you went broke in your business, owing a million dollars and asking the bank for another million to pay the first million, even though you can't earn enough to pay it back...

Meantime, you need to live, so you book up more debt to feed your family...

Ha ha. That sums up business in the Bay of Islands beautifully, just knock a couple of zero's off. Everybody is well & truly into their winter overdrafts.

The US has been bankrupt for a long time, I think the biggest thing now is that investors have had to bite the bullet & face the fact. Support for the mighty greenback is waning in the face of Asian, Indian & Eastern growth & the US cannot compete. China is pumping more money into the EU to support it's markets there than it is into the States. Fairly recently China & Russia agreed on a common currency for trade which is not the US dollar. Scary stuff.
It was not until the 1970's that the full impact of Britain's debt to America from WWII was felt. A long time in population terms.
We have a way to go yet before any predictions can be made IMHO

[mashman]

Imploding under its own weight of debt?


Even debt is worth money to someone :blink: It's a living that pays well too I believe :killingme...



Yes. But step outside the system for a moment and look at what it really is doing ...


We have all of the resources we need. Us consuming them, right up until this very moment in time is proof of that. (but we all pay a different price for the resource when we own it :rofl:)

Outside the system. I see light.

[Edbear]

I would have reordered the who's to blame. Start with the banks as they thought they could take on more risk and therefore make more money out of the gullible public and they then encouraged the public to borrow. The Government because it didn't stop the craziness in the banks and actually enabled them via Fanny May.

Yeah, trouble is the public is gullible and greedy. We always want more than we can afford and the reason NZ and Aus have to a large extent been spared is the banks haven't been as reckless and greedy over this way.

Offer many people easy credit and they will take it and worry about tomorrow when it comes. Then they blame the creditors for their folly... "It's your fault for giving it to me when you knew I couldn't afford it!" :blink:

[racefactory]

Whats happening on the 2nd Aug? lol I fly to USA on the 1st!

August 2nd debt ceiling deadline for USA. All the borrowed time comes to an end as America defaults and sinks into a dark age. Social unrest and chaos rampages through the country as it plunges into the abyss; we cross the verge of a great transition in the western life as our biggest influence we have ever known becomes no more. Have a nice trip!

[Usarka]

Doom and gloom, man. :sunny:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1917167/Chinese-nuclear-submarine-base.html

[Banditbandit]

Well, when the money train gets derailed sufficiently, we have a world war. My assumption is that's where the world is heading.

Would that be too farfetched?

Yes. Marx describes the cyclic nature of Capitalism - complete with wars ... there are huge economic benefits to wars . unless they cost more than the country can afford .. The first and second world wars were "affordable" ... and many capitalists got very very rich ... the current US wars are not ... the country's going broke while corporations like Haliburton make huge profits ...

[george formby]

August 2nd debt ceiling deadline for USA. All the borrowed time comes to an end as America defaults and sinks into a dark age. Social unrest and chaos rampages as the country plunges into the abyss. Have a nice trip.

It's a scary thought. I wonder how your average Joe in the US perceives the future should they default. Will they knuckle down & re-build the economy or throw their toys out the cot?
Are'nt we supposed to be making a $4 billion debt payment soon too?

[Banditbandit]

It's a scary thought. I wonder how your average Joe in the US perceives the future should they default. Will they knuckle down & re-build the economy or throw their toys out the cot?
Are'nt we supposed to be making a $4 billion debt payment soon too?

Shit - we'd better get A LOT of speeding tickets to cover that

[Edbear]

August 2nd debt ceiling deadline for USA. All the borrowed time comes to an end as America defaults and sinks into a dark age. Social unrest and chaos rampages as the country plunges into the abyss. Have a nice trip.

If they default, think of Greece 10x over. However I doubt congress will allow that this time, they're over a barrel and not in a position to argue the point without shooting themselves in the head.

There's a lot of politicking and postulating and finger pointing as members and parties try to make the most of the situation for their own political ends, but the bottom line is either increase the debt ceiling or die. They desperately need to buy, (literally!), time to try to sort things out longer term.

Many naysayers mocked two or three years ago when the proverbial hit the fan and world watchers warned this was going to happen. "No!" they said, "The Powers won't allow it!" Sure enough, as governments and bankers talked up the "progress" and the signs of recovery, the deniers crowed. I wonder where they are now... :yes:

A prominent figure said at the time of the WFC that the world will have to find another way of doing business. Still looking for that way as country after country sinks into default threatening the total collapse of the entire world's economy.

This is mainly affecting the Western world at the moment which will take down the third world with it as aid and business deals dry up. The Moslem world is fracturing from within and returning to tribal and cultural conflict as terrorism takes advantage of civil unrest, having failed to make as dramatic effect on the West as Al Qaeda predicted. Leaving the East, China, Russia etc. looking to opportunites for peacefully gaining the upperhand.

As has been said, the Chinese are very patient and can afford, both financially and psychologically, to wait for the right time. The Russians aren't as patient or as wealthy as the country has its own financial woes in its aging and antiquated infrastructure and very high unemployment levels, but they are staunch and aggressive and ready to flex their muscles.

[Murray]

Just print more money - seems easy

[scumdog]

Seems the Western world is going down the gurgler financially and the Eastern world is collapsing into civil war and terrorism. Peaceful and stable countries are being hit by natural disasters of all kinds and the wind is cold in my street. :bye:

The US has until next month to raise money or default and the only way is to take on more borrowing putting the country at risk of owing more than it's worth. The West has been living beyond its means for a very long time and the Piper wants paying, the chickens have all come home to roost and not enough of the eggs layed have hatched.

Europe is scared of the consequences of Italy defaulting as it could lead to the collapse of Europe's economy. So the most powerful nation on Earth, seen as the backstop for everything, is broke! I believe they will pass the legislation to borrow more, but obviously that would only delay the inevitable for a short while. What would happen if the US defaulted?

Russia, China, Hong Kong and Korea have been strangely quiet over the financial issues facing the West, are they playing a waiting game?


Fark you know some quaint phrases!!

But yes, consternation rules supreme with the fiscal imprudence of the Western countries and their ilk..

[Indiana_Jones]

We've had our turn, now it's theirs.

-Indy

[Edbear]

Fark you know some quaint phrases!!

But yes, consternation rules supreme with the fiscal imprudence of the Western countries and their ilk..

LOL! When I was born, and the Doc slapped me on the bum, it was to tell me to shut up so he could get a word in edge-wise... :innocent:

[rainman]

Who's to blame? Everyone who wanted to buy/spend more than they could realistically afford, ie: the consumer booking up too much debt, then the banks for being loose and greedy counting on the economic boom to cover their irresponsible lending, and finally the Governement for taking on debt it couldn't afford and hadn't budgeted for in an attempt to bail everyone out and keep the economy afloat.

Might have left out the uber-wealthy, there. Yes the sheeple have a hand in spending beyond their means (and being so bloody compliant), but the very very wealthy have been doing quite OK out of this crisis, as per usual.


Could the banks end up owning the US of A?

Pfft. Like they don't already.


we have a world war.

Based on past experience, and the fact that the Yanks have a LOT of guns, and that the default response of humans in times of scarce resource is to fight over them, my guess is you are quite right.


Selling shares in the energy companies is blindingly stupid because within a few years those shares will be predominantly owned offshore.

Absolutely. But if that nice Mr Key wants to do it everyone thinks he's awfully clever for thinking of the idea, because he's on the blue team, doncha know?


Even debt is worth money to someone

In essence, debt is money, and money is debt. Have a listen to these if you have a long time to spare...
http://www.antiscia.com/wizardsofmoney/

[bikaholic]

When the interest rates went up in the States we are talking from 2% rising to 4 %.
The rest of the world except Aussie and NZ stops at 6%, we don't even stop borrowng at 8%.

Also most US States you can walk away from your house if you go broke, bank takes the house but can't get anymore blood from the stone walked.

[nudemetalz]

Does this mean that Don Trump Snr won't be as rich as he thinks he is very soon?
He'll have to get a $2 Shop toupee for his head if that's the case..

[tri boy]

There's a big difference between being loaned, and being owned.

One stroke of a pen closes that gap to nothing.
Banks do it every day.:yes:

[imdying]

We've had our turn, now it's theirs.I think that is about right.

The Greeks, Romans, English, French, America, they've all had a crack. India, China, they'll both get their turn eventually... but they'll fuck it up too.

[Indiana_Jones]

I think that is about right.

The Greeks, Romans, English, French, America, they've all had a crack. India, China, they'll both get their turn eventually... but they'll fuck it up too.

Empires rise and fall

-Indy

[Oblivion]

The US will most definitely fall. It might not be within the next few days. But it will happen. And when it does, all the money that is owed to China, will be claimed in the form of authority over the Americans. The only reason that China is doing so well financially, ( $9 trillion surplus atm ) is because they maximize output for the sake of Human Rights. Also, a vast majority of the people in China are living on levels of income that would be declared poverty in the western world. I just hope that New Zealand can clear debt fast enough before China takes over. I can't imagine surviving without non restricted internet and Free speech...... :bye:

I dun wanna learn mandarin. ( I wanna eat them :innocent: )

[racefactory]

Well said. All empires rise and fall, but I just wish it wasn't in my lifetime that it will be China's turn, that's all. When you've actually lived in the country, speaking the language with them and you understand exactly how the people's minds tick; it's only then that the thought can truly scare you shitless.

If it comes to taking up arms to defend this country from them, I'll fight to the death. As far as I'm concerned, life is over once the creditors come knocking and our sovereignty is handed into their jaws.

[Brett]

There hasn't been enough gold to cover the world's finances for a long time now. The reality is that there has to be enough "real" money that anyone can go to their bank and withdraw their balance in cash. This is also no longer possible due to the credit society we run. In the news in recent years there have been runs on banks as people panic and demand their money in cash after hearing the bank is in trouble leading to the Government having to chip in and bail the bank out before it goes under. In NZ it happened with South Canterbury Finance.

In short, you borrow $300k for a house mortgage at 7%. Long before you ever pay that back, the bank lends that same $300k plus the balance of the interest income out at an other 7% and so on. So while the actual monies available to the bank at any one time is less than the original $300k, the value of the debtor's ledger is now $600K plus interest. The bank itself, though is now in debt as it has borrowed the extra from another bank at 3% interest in order to pay out the mortgages to the vendor of the houses. This is a simplified explanation, of course.

If you then default on your mortgage, the bank seizes your house and sells it to cover the debt. What happened in the US was that the banks had lent 120% of the value of the house, counting on capital increases to catch up the difference. (Greed and competitive manuevering to gain customers). When that failed, (the interest rates rose and the people couldn't afford the repayments leading to bankruptcy), the bank was left with a house worth 75%, (or less!), the value of the debt which meant the bank was in danger of defaulting on its own borrowings. The ensuing glut of mortgagee sales collapsed the housing market leaving houses worth 30% or less than the mortgage over them. People who paid $450k were forced to sell their home for under $200k leaving them still owing nearly $200k+ with no assets.

The US governement had no choice but to step in and rescue the banks or see the whole US economy collapse. They printed billions of dollars of paper money which, of course, devalued the USD and on top of that had to cut the interest rates to zero to try to encourage people to spend and book up more credit to restore the book balance of the banks. As predicted this was a short term "fix" that was bound to backfire down the track and it has. Now the US Government, having taken on the debts of the people and the banks, is facing bankruptcy itself.

Who's to blame? Everyone who wanted to buy/spend more than they could realistically afford, ie: the consumer booking up too much debt, then the banks for being loose and greedy counting on the economic boom to cover their irresponsible lending, and finally the Governement for taking on debt it couldn't afford and hadn't budgeted for in an attempt to bail everyone out and keep the economy afloat.

Amusing isn't it...sort of a much grander scheme of what Stephen Versalko was doing to his ASB investors. There is a name for this kind of fraud, but can't remember what it is.

[Indiana_Jones]

Well said. All empires rise and fall, but I just wish it wasn't in my lifetime that it will be China's turn, that's all. When you've actually lived in the country, and you understand exactly how the people's minds tick, it's only then that the thought can truly scare you shitless.

If it comes to taking up arms to defend this country from them, I'll fight to the death. As far as I'm concerned, life is over once the creditors come knocking and we are handed into their jaws.

I've never been there, but the thought of those goose stepping Nazi gooks running the show scares the shit out of me.

I wonder what would happen if countries refused to pay. I dare say they'd invade a smaller one, but what about the US. I'd start digging a bunker lol.

-Indy

[racefactory]

The only comforting thing is that historically it's never been in their nature to roam forth outside their borders and conquer like our western forefathers have. At least that's what I keep reminding myself of...

[Indiana_Jones]

The only comforting thing is that historically it's never been in their nature to roam forth outside their borders and conquer like our western forefathers have. At least that's what I keep reminding myself of...

Yea, but they didn't have jet fighters, subs and nukes back then lol

but then again they might be scared of the Mongals still lol

-Indy

[imdying]

It's all good... we had a good run and did lots of cool shite. The earth isn't ours in any case... it doesn't belong to you, me, the Maori, the USA, and not even China, even if they 'own' most of it in the future.

It'll still be spinning long after all of the humans are dead :)

[Usarka]

It'll still be spinning long after all of the humans are dead :)

Rotation of Earth Plunges Entire North American Continent Into Darkness (http://www.theonion.com/articles/rotation-of-earth-plunges-entire-north-american-co,1905)

[Vacquer0]

Oh, fuck. Anybody have a spare room for rent, and a bike. Fridge full of cold ones would be a plus.

[Latte]

Rotation of Earth Plunges Entire North American Continent Into Darkness (http://www.theonion.com/articles/rotation-of-earth-plunges-entire-north-american-co,1905)

Oh noes , it's dark at 5:45pm in the middle of winter....... the horror

[Oblivion]

Oh noes , it's dark at 5:45pm in the middle of winter....... the horror

Come to Antarctica. I know you would enjoy the 6 month long riding season. Just remember to bring your leathers. :yes:

[Swoop]

Yea, but they didn't have jet fighters, subs and nukes back then
There is only one underground sub pen being built at the moment. Their subs are operated by a bunch of people who do not deploy regularly or know how to get the "performance" from their equipment. Basically their subs are a joke (at the moment).

The "combined base (http://www.2point6billion.com/news/2011/05/24/pakistan-willing-to-offer-china-an-overseas-naval-base-9344.html)" that was going to happen in Pakistan looks like it has fallen over already...

The Shi Lang (Ex USSR Varyag) carrier is still being worked on and sea trials will be a way off yet, although the naval aviation school is up and running.

As for jet engines, they still haven't stolen the technology or reverse-engineered the ability to produce reliable high performance fighter engines.

[Indiana_Jones]

There is only one underground sub pen being built at the moment. Their subs are operated by a bunch of people who do not deploy regularly or know how to get the "performance" from their equipment. Basically their subs are a joke (at the moment).

The "combined base (http://www.2point6billion.com/news/2011/05/24/pakistan-willing-to-offer-china-an-overseas-naval-base-9344.html)" that was going to happen in Pakistan looks like it has fallen over already...

The Shi Lang (Ex USSR Varyag) carrier is still being worked on and sea trials will be a way off yet, although the naval aviation school is up and running.

As for jet engines, they still haven't stolen the technology or reverse-engineered the ability to produce reliable high performance fighter engines.

Guess they'll use the Russian tactic and just throw endless grunts at the enemy until you win lol

But saying that the Russians did have some very good weapons during the great patriotic war

-Indy

[scumdog]

Well said. All empires rise and fall, but I just wish it wasn't in my lifetime that it will be China's turn, that's all. When you've actually lived in the country, speaking the language with them and you understand exactly how the people's minds tick; it's only then that the thought can truly scare you shitless.



What he says is true, be afraid, be very afraid..

Ethics and 'human rights' aren't in their language, hence how they're advancing so quickly..

[Indiana_Jones]

What he says is true, be afraid, be very afraid..

Ethics and 'human rights' aren't in their language, hence how they're advancing so quickly..

+1

-Indy

[shrub]

What he says is true, be afraid, be very afraid..

Ethics and 'human rights' aren't in their language, hence how they're advancing so quickly..

+ another one. China's incredible growth has come at the expense of unbelievable environmental degradation and social injustice. I believe they are looking at NZ as a potential acquisition that will provide their elites with gourmet food. Kind of like we did for dear old Blighty back in the first half of the 20th century, only instead of paying whatever we ask they will pay what they need to, and if they own a substantial percentage of our farms and infrastructure as well as being our bankers, don't expect to get rich.

[Edbear]

Interesting background on the problem, here...

http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/15-07-2011/118499-europe_usa_debts-0/

[Edbear]

I hear the US is considering printing some more money... :gob:

:facepalm:

[mashman]

I hear the US is considering printing some more money... :gob:

:facepalm:

according to telly the other night, the US mint have been making dollar coins (at .32 cents a pop), even though they are no longer used in circulation and the scheduled run is not meant to end until 2016. They are pumping out US $560,000 per day of these things... wonder why they need 'em if they are no longer in circulation? there are warehouses full of the shit, whitehouses too :)

[mashman]

"The eurozone countries and the International Monetary Fund will give Greece a second bailout worth 109 billion euros ($A145 billion), on top of the 110 billion euros (NZ$61.8 billion) already granted a year ago." (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/9892355/greece-gets-new-110bn-euro-bailout/#)

waaaaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... Reckon they'll be back next year??? perhaps the same people will bail the US out... whoever they are.

[shrub]

"The eurozone countries and the International Monetary Fund will give Greece a second bailout worth 109 billion euros ($A145 billion), on top of the 110 billion euros (NZ$61.8 billion) already granted a year ago." (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/9892355/greece-gets-new-110bn-euro-bailout/#)

waaaaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa... Reckon they'll be back next year??? perhaps the same people will bail the US out... whoever they are.

Very interesting stuff. I notice that the private sector are now involved to the tune of NZ$183.7 billion, and that has some very scary ramifications. "New Zealand - now brought to you by Bank of China". The end of democracy and the return of a form of monarchy where the King is not a man but a corporation? I might dig out my Orwell books and Brave New World - I always enjoy reading current affairs.

[avgas]

Russia, China, Hong Kong and Korea have been strangely quiet over the financial issues facing the West, are they playing a waiting game?

Russia = poor overall
Hong Kong = China
China = buy the stuff when it gets cheap. They bought SAAB and Hummer off GM recently. Currently eyeing up Lincoln off ford and Dodge.
South Korea = 0.5 x US$ + 0.5 x Yen ......so they will fall hard too
North Korea = see Russia.

[avgas]

Well said. All empires rise and fall, but I just wish it wasn't in my lifetime that it will be China's turn, that's all. When you've actually lived in the country, speaking the language with them and you understand exactly how the people's minds tick; it's only then that the thought can truly scare you shitless.

If it comes to taking up arms to defend this country from them, I'll fight to the death. As far as I'm concerned, life is over once the creditors come knocking and our sovereignty is handed into their jaws.
I for one have taken a different approach.
I embrace our new Chinese overlord. I have married into their culture and now we have a half-cast offspring.
Huan yīng guǎng lín wěidà de tǒngzhì zhě

fyi the rest of you are fucked. Sorry.

[avgas]

As for jet engines, they still haven't stolen the technology or reverse-engineered the ability to produce reliable high performance fighter engines.

Aye?
Seen the press in the last 2 years. There is currently a tech war between JH-7 and PAK FA........ US are just showing pretty paintings of the F22 replacement "NATF" and then there is that Joint forces fighter - which is based of old tech.

And in NZ we don't even have anti-aircraft LAV's......

[Swoop]

Seen the press in the last 2 years.
I try and avoid "the press" for accurate info on military subjects and use int. sources.
Top of the line fighter jet engines are tricky for china. They still have to buy engines for the Migs.

[avgas]

I try and avoid "the press" for accurate info on military subjects and use int. sources.
Top of the line fighter jet engines are tricky for china. They still have to buy engines for the Migs.
Sorry by press I mean "internal" stuff. Places like www.airforce-technology.com (GLobal defence is parent group) etc is quite handy. See what orders are placed and what manufacturers are doing a good few years before it hits normal press.
Of course there are sources that know the information before these guys - but if I told you who I would have to kill you lol

[slofox]

What have we learned in 2,066 years?

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."

- Cicero - 55 BC

Evidently nothing.

[avgas]

Not entirely true.
We learnt the world is round. :drinkup:

[Edbear]

Counting down...

[Indiana_Jones]

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/A13vj5vdlCU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

-Indy

[Edbear]

They're really pushing the envelope, aren't they?

[Banditbandit]

They're really pushing the envelope, aren't they?

They run the world (don't they?) They are allowed to

[Maha]

.......bring the troops home, that will go some way towards slowing down the US expenditure.

[Paul in NZ]

.......bring the troops home, that will go some way towards slowing down the US expenditure.

For them to do what? There are no jobs to bring em home too....

[Banditbandit]

It's cheaper to pay them the benefit at home - no extra costs such as ammunition, missiles, food and other supporting infrastructure .. pay them a benefit and force them to buy their own food ..

[Maha]

For them to do what? There are no jobs to bring em home too....

They have a job Paul, they are in the military, thats what they do.
They wont come home and be forced to work at MacDonalds.
The US Government spend millions, weekly, just to have keep those troops in the middle east.
They might as well be back in the US not costing millions (over and above thier salaries)....and get on with what they were doing before they went over seas.

[mashman]

Counting down...

WHEW luckily they've struck a deal (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/us-politicians-finally-seal-debt-deal-005315440.html) (no details as yet, well not really)... t'would be a shame to lose that AAA rating :killingme

[ducatilover]

Wow.....because that's a surprise. They raised the debt ceiling, again.

:facepalm:

[Edbear]

WHEW luckily they've struck a deal (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/us-politicians-finally-seal-debt-deal-005315440.html) (no details as yet, well not really)... t'would be a shame to lose that AAA rating :killingme


Wow.....because that's a surprise. They raised the debt ceiling, again.

:facepalm:

Hobson's choice for the US. They couldn't do anything else. I figured they would agree to it and reckoned the pollies would spin it out to the last minute to try to make the most political gain they could out of it.

However it is only a temporary reprieve, they will hit the wall again in the not too distant future.

[ducatilover]

Hobson's choice for the US. They couldn't do anything else. I figured they would agree to it and reckoned the pollies would spin it out to the last minute to try to make the most political gain they could out of it.

However it is only a temporary reprieve, they will hit the wall again in the not too distant future.

If they default, will bike parts be cheaper? :innocent:

[Edbear]

The immediate impact would be on social welfare/health and the military. The big picture is that if the Government defaults, the US will be downgraded, and their dollar will be as much good as Argentina's was during the war with Britain and then the country may collapse leading to another, and much worse WFC. If the US can't pay its loans off the lender's go bust.

[ducatilover]

Very true. I do not imagine the lenders want to go bust either, if I was a lender and relying on the U.S paying their debts back, I would do whatever I can to keep the U.S going. Or just steal their women and wenches.

[Quasievil]

Or just steal their women and wenches.

Lets work on that a bit more, so we understand the full benifit of such an action.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii104/Quasizxr/marisa_miller.jpg

[ducatilover]

:woohoo: BOOBIES

[sil3nt]

Probably already been asked but who do these countries owe the money too?

[Edbear]

Probably already been asked but who do these countries owe the money too?

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/03/who-does-the-us-owe-money-to/

[SPman]

Oooh look at that big wedge in the Social Security Trust Fund - I bet they'd like to get their dirty little mits on that ...........

[Banditbandit]

China !!! The Yellow peril Communists have been supporting the great Capitalist Satan ...

Bugga me dead with a penny ... I would never have picked that ..

[Vacquer0]

"Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused the United States on Monday of living beyond its means "like a parasite" on the global economy and said dollar dominance was a threat to the financial markets.

"They are living beyond their means and shifting a part of the weight of their problems to the world economy," Putin told a Kremlin youth group while touring its summer camp north of Moscow.

"They are living like parasites off the global economy and their monopoly of the dollar."

US President Barack Obama announced a last-ditch deal to cut about $2.4 trillion from the U.S. deficit over a decade, avoid a crushing debt default and stave off the risk that the nation's AAA credit rating would be downgraded.

The deal initially soothed anxieties and led Russian stocks to jump to three-month highs, but jitters remained over the possibility of a credit downgrade.

"Thank god," Putin said, "that they had enough common sense and responsibility to make a balanced decision."

But Putin, who has often criticised the United States' foreign exchange policy, noted that Russia holds a large amount of U.S. bonds and treasuries.

"If over there (in America) there is a systemic malfunction, this will affect everyone," Putin told the young Russians.

"Countries like Russia and China hold a significant part of their reserves in American securities ... There should be other reserve currencies."

U.S.-Russian relations soured during Vladimir Putin's 2000-2008 presidency but have warmed significantly under President Barack Obama, who took office in 2009 promising a "reset" in bilateral ties."

[Robert Taylor]

"Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused the United States on Monday of living beyond its means "like a parasite" on the global economy and said dollar dominance was a threat to the financial markets.

"They are living beyond their means and shifting a part of the weight of their problems to the world economy," Putin told a Kremlin youth group while touring its summer camp north of Moscow.

"They are living like parasites off the global economy and their monopoly of the dollar."

US President Barack Obama announced a last-ditch deal to cut about $2.4 trillion from the U.S. deficit over a decade, avoid a crushing debt default and stave off the risk that the nation's AAA credit rating would be downgraded.

The deal initially soothed anxieties and led Russian stocks to jump to three-month highs, but jitters remained over the possibility of a credit downgrade.

"Thank god," Putin said, "that they had enough common sense and responsibility to make a balanced decision."

But Putin, who has often criticised the United States' foreign exchange policy, noted that Russia holds a large amount of U.S. bonds and treasuries.

"If over there (in America) there is a systemic malfunction, this will affect everyone," Putin told the young Russians.

"Countries like Russia and China hold a significant part of their reserves in American securities ... There should be other reserve currencies."

U.S.-Russian relations soured during Vladimir Putin's 2000-2008 presidency but have warmed significantly under President Barack Obama, who took office in 2009 promising a "reset" in bilateral ties."

Putin and Russia cannot through their own histories claim the moral high ground but Putin was bang on with his views on the US economy.

[SPman]

"Thank god," Putin said, "that they had enough common sense and responsibility to make a balanced decision." :killingme


..............

[Teflon]

"Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin accused the United States on Monday of living beyond its means "like a parasite" on the global economy and said dollar dominance was a threat to the financial markets.

"They are living beyond their means and shifting a part of the weight of their problems to the world economy," Putin told a Kremlin youth group while touring its summer camp north of Moscow.

"They are living like parasites off the global economy and their monopoly of the dollar."

US President Barack Obama announced a last-ditch deal to cut about $2.4 trillion from the U.S. deficit over a decade, avoid a crushing debt default and stave off the risk that the nation's AAA credit rating would be downgraded.

The deal initially soothed anxieties and led Russian stocks to jump to three-month highs, but jitters remained over the possibility of a credit downgrade.

"Thank god," Putin said, "that they had enough common sense and responsibility to make a balanced decision."

But Putin, who has often criticised the United States' foreign exchange policy, noted that Russia holds a large amount of U.S. bonds and treasuries.

"If over there (in America) there is a systemic malfunction, this will affect everyone," Putin told the young Russians.

"Countries like Russia and China hold a significant part of their reserves in American securities ... There should be other reserve currencies."

U.S.-Russian relations soured during Vladimir Putin's 2000-2008 presidency but have warmed significantly under President Barack Obama, who took office in 2009 promising a "reset" in bilateral ties."

Vladimir is a fucking good cunt..

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/t2LxpNJ6jck" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

here he sings for charity:sunny:

[SPman]

Vladimir is a fucking good cunt.. About as good as the current crop of world heads...just don't turn your back on him.............:ar15:

[Vacquer0]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6141/6004714029_9159828353.jpg

[Vacquer0]

"The bill to increase the federal debt limit that has been put before Congress today would increase that limit by up to $2.4 trillion, which would be the largest increase in the debt limit in U.S. history by a margin of half a trillion dollars, according to records published by the Government Accountability Office and the Congressional Research Service."

Time for them to cut up the credit cards and throw them in the trash, just like the real world.

[Edbear]

All they've done is bought, (literally!), themselves a short reprieve, as they still have to meet the next round of payments. If they can't cut spending by a significant amount they're still too deep in the poo. Look for severe cuts to welfare and the military with serious job losses adding to their woes.

[Paul in NZ]

All they've done is bought, (literally!), themselves a short reprieve, as they still have to meet the next round of payments. If they can't cut spending by a significant amount they're still too deep in the poo. Look for severe cuts to welfare and the military with serious job losses adding to their woes.

The USA has owed more per capita in the past but then they fought out of it by de militarization and fast growth. I dont think thats going to work this time...

[Ocean1]

The USA has owed more per capita in the past but then they fought out of it by de militarization and fast growth...

...And by strategically fucking with the exchange rate in their favour.

All of the big economies do it. The sooner we've got a global currency the better. Maybe.

[racefactory]

I wouldn't like to be in government in the USA with the coming social unrest from all the job losses and cuts. They won't be at the gates with pitchforks, but guns!

[SPman]

Interestingly, Japan has twice the deficit of the USA or Italy and equally useless leaders........

Unemployment in the USA using pre 1980 methods of measurement comes out at 22.3% - not the 9.?% officially quoted, which would better reflect the general feeling among the broader population in the US.

But still, Republicans refused to offer even the most reasonable concessions. They voted NO to ending $21 billion in taxpayer-funded handouts to tax-dodging oil companies. They've repeatedly stalled on bringing in $100 billion per year by closing corporate tax loopholes. They've rejected a new income tax bracket for households making above $1,000,000 per year. They even voted down ending tax breaks for corporate jet owners. The only spending Republicans spared from cuts was the Pentagon budget. The basic needs of America's most vulnerable were cut to shreds. President Obama calls this a "compromise," but this was a deal where the Republicans got everything they wanted - trillions in spending cuts, and no new revenue.

It'll all end in tears, probably of the high velocity medium calibre kind, and I wouldn't want to be there when it does......

[Indiana_Jones]

Should of let the car companies go under :facepalm:

-Indy

[Vacquer0]

I believe your unemployment rates are quite accurate on a national level and low for some states. The slow deterioration of these communities is devastating when you watch it happen to your friends and neighbors.

What is amazing or just plain sad is the fact of how few Americans actually understand or even care about these facts. Many of you (Kiwi's) understand our political system better than the citizens here. They will end up paying for that mistake, surprised and butt-hurt. I don't understand completely how this apathy occurs.

My opinion is the majority of the politicians are psychopaths and criminals.
These issues caused by corporate greed are not isolated to this country.

[avgas]

Should of let the car companies go under
3 litres...... to give the poms a chance ;)

[Indiana_Jones]

3 litres...... to give the poms a chance ;)

lol

We had our chance and had a good run in the 50s and 60s but lack of foresight and investment put an end to that.

Then government action was merely sorting out deck chairs on the Titanic (Think NVT).

Nice to see the likes of Bloor etc have learnt the lesson.

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

I fear the problem will only get worse down the line as my generation, generation why-bother, is used to living the Freddy Mercury way of "I want it all and I want it now".....:facepalm:

-Indy

[Robert Taylor]

I fear the problem will only get worse down the line as my generation, generation why-bother, is used to living the Freddy Mercury way of "I want it all and I want it now".....:facepalm:

-Indy

Well said, that is the root of the problem at all ends of the spectrum.

[rainman]

...generation why-bother...

Like it...! :yes:

[shrub]

And the credit has been downgraded. We live in intersting times, do we not?

[Paul in NZ]

And the credit has been downgraded. We live in intersting times, do we not?

I'm no prophet but I'll say this - you have NO idea how interesting this could get....

Sigh

All brought on by a bunch of cunts that value their 5 mins on TV more than a decent life for Joe Six Pack....

[Vacquer0]

Not a matter of what country you are a citizen of. Only how much money you have and what you are willing to do to gain power. Otherwise, we all are merely a commodity, just expendable peasants.

These corporations make no distinctions on who they use there weapons and tactics on. Blaming a specific country or government may not be accurate any longer.

[FROSTY]

Maybee im just a stupid kiwi git but isn't the answer to the USA's fincnancial woes pretty odvious? Stop going to war with every country in the world. Build GOOD stuff instead of blowing stuff up.

[rainman]

Maybee im just a stupid kiwi git but isn't the answer to the USA's fincnancial woes pretty odvious? Stop going to war with every country in the world. Build GOOD stuff instead of blowing stuff up.

Not a stupid git at all. The problem is the oil. If they stop warring with the Middle East and let them keep their oil, their economy will fall on it's arse. Faster than it is already, of course.

[racefactory]

Maybee im just a stupid kiwi git but isn't the answer to the USA's fincnancial woes pretty odvious? Stop going to war with every country in the world. Build GOOD stuff instead of blowing stuff up.

You'd think so but the American war machine is a crucial GPD generator for the country.

[Edbear]

Tomorrow will be very interesting when the markets open. No-one is just quite sure what's going to happen...

[Naki Rat]

Just finishing reading a book that gives some very interesting background on how the US financial markets work. The Big Short by Michael Lewis (http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Big-Short-Michael-Lewis/9780393338829) takes a bit of getting your head around ( I don't claim to have understood it fully) as it documents the predictable collapse of the sub-prime mortgage CDO market. From what I can see the present situation is just an extension of the same financial machine and as such is doomed to failure.

And on a related note a friend who spent 15 years plumbing in Southern California and sold up 8 years ago when for him the market crash was blindingly obvious. He now has an associate still in LA who has recently received a state tax refund from California in the form of an IOU, and no it can't be used as a credit against next years :shit:

[rainman]

Tomorrow will be very interesting when the markets open. No-one is just quite sure what's going to happen...

In the short term, sure, but some (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Tainter) people have a pretty good view (http://www.dylan.org.uk/greer_on_collapse.pdf) of the long term outcome...

[avgas]

You'd think so but the American war machine is a crucial GPD generator for the country.
Its also costing them more than national healthcare........

Interesting fact I learnt a few weeks ago.
US spend more on equipping their military, than the rest of the world.......combined.

[Vacquer0]

I hope this is not too long-winded but some may find this interesting. I did not write it or confirm the details but am familiar with some of the information.

"As many of you know Hitler took over Germany
Many of you do not realize Germany was much like modern day America
The fact is Stalin and Hitler followed the same steps that are remarkably close to whats going on in this once great free nation of America

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag
3. Develop a thug caste
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

For the last 25 years or so a series of astounding laws have been introduced which violate the civil rites of the American people.

The First mile stone was a bill called REX84

Rex 84, short for Readiness Exercise 1984, is a contingency plan developed by the United States federal government to suspend the United States Constitution, declare martial law, place military commanders in charge of state and local governments, and detain large numbers of American citizens who were deemed to be "national security threats", in the event that the President declared a "State of Domestic National Emergency". The plan stated that events that might cause such a declaration would be widespread U.S. opposition to a U.S. military invasion abroad, such as if the United States were to directly invade Central America. To combat what the government perceived as "subversive activities", the plan also authorized the military to direct ordered movements of civilian populations at state and regional levels.

That at the time was a slap in the face to the American people and most knew nothing about it. The plot thickens though

These executive orders where made without the oversight of checks and balances system due to the "War on terror" giving the president the authority to do so

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 12148 created the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) that is to interface with the Department of Defense for civil defense planning and funding. An "emergency czar" was appointed. FEMA has only spent about 6 percent of its budget on national emergencies, the bulk of their funding has been used for the construction of secret underground facilities to assure continuity of government in case of a major emergency, foreign or domestic.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 12656 appointed the National Security Council as the principal body that should consider emergency powers. This allows the government to increase domestic intelligence and surveillance of U.S. citizens and would restrict the freedom of movement within the United States and granted the government the right to isolate large groups of civilians. The National Guard could be federalized to seal all borders and take control of U.S. air space and all ports of entry. Many of the figures in the Iran-Contra scandal were part of this emergency contingent, including Marine Colonel Oliver North. "

[Brian d marge]

NZ is the first market to open ....this will be interesting

Stephen

[Vacquer0]

Like Colonel Edward Mandell House said when he picked the first Federal Reserve Board in 1913.

"[Very] soon, every American will be required to register their biological property in a National system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging.

By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will affect our security as a charge-back for our fiat paper currency. Every American will be forced to register or suffer not being able to work and earn a living.

They will be our chattel, and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the law merchant under the scheme of secured transactions. Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, forever to remain economic slaves through taxation, secured by their pledges.

They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two would figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability.

After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debt to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap to us huge profits beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud which we will call "Social Insurance."

Without realizing it, every American will insure us for any loss we may incur and in this manner; every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and, we will employ the high office of the President of our dummy corporation to foment this plot against America."

[oldrider]

Like Colonel Edward Mandell House said when he picked the first Federal Reserve Board in 1913.

"[Very] soon, every American will be required to register their biological property in a National system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging.

By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will affect our security as a charge-back for our fiat paper currency. Every American will be forced to register or suffer not being able to work and earn a living.

They will be our chattel, and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the law merchant under the scheme of secured transactions. Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, forever to remain economic slaves through taxation, secured by their pledges.

They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two would figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability.

After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debt to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap to us huge profits beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud which we will call "Social Insurance."

Without realizing it, every American will insure us for any loss we may incur and in this manner; every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and, we will employ the high office of the President of our dummy corporation to foment this plot against America."

The controlling weapon of choice is of course "fear" based on ignorance! Case closed. :mellow:

[Edbear]

Of course one has to ensure the said "Big Brother" has the capacity for absolute unity and secrecy across the political spectrum in order for all this to work.

History shows the political parties and individuals are far more interested in their own agendas for their own political expediency and more interested in feathering their own nests. The parties are as divided as ever and most people are very quick to claim and expose complicity to discredit the powers that be and lend weight to their own agendas.

The bottom line is that the US is reaping what it has sown in reckless debt and spending beyond its means for decades. It was inevitable that this would occur and I've been saying so since the mid-eighties, much to the derision of others.

The EU is also in deep poo as if Italy defaults, there isn't enough funds to bail the country out which could very realistically cause a snowball effect throughout Europe. So the Euro is also under suspicion as to its stability.

The world is at the fiscal crossroads and faces a conundrum. All the major players have too much at stake and too much to lose to see the US collapse, yet the country is flat broke and unable to pay its debts. Count in the other to date unnoticed countries of the EU and you quickly realise that China, being the largest holder of US debt, is about the best bet to save the world's finances and if they have to bail the US out, you can bet they'll have some pretty severe terms!

Putin will be watching this with very keen interest!

[Naki Rat]

.....
The world is at the fiscal crossroads and faces a conundrum. All the major players have too much at stake and too much to lose to see the US collapse, yet the country is flat broke and unable to pay its debts. Count in the other to date unnoticed countries of the EU and you quickly realise that China, being the largest holder of US debt, is about the best bet to save the world's finances and if they have to bail the US out, you can bet they'll have some pretty severe terms!

Putin will be watching this with very keen interest!
But China is definitely not without its financial issues at present :shit:


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[Vacquer0]

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[Edbear]

But China is definitely not without its financial issues at present :shit:


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True, which is one important reason why China is not very happy with the US right now. If the US falls over, it badly mucks up China's efforts to bring themselves up with the West. China has been investing squillions in growth but it's trying to go too far, too fast. Maybe we should be looking closer at India, which is politically and internationally at risk from civil unrest and terrorism, but financially is growing rapidly.

[ducatilover]

That was an eye opening video thanks. :blink:

[SPman]

The controlling weapon of choice is of course "fear" based on ignorance! Case closed. :mellow:

"The war of terror", cunningly disguised as "the war on terror" and a compliant media....:facepalm:

[Edbear]

That was an eye opening video thanks. :blink:

+1!...... and one makes 10...

[PirateJafa]

But China is definitely not without its financial issues at present :shit:

The issues aren't just financial!

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/ccgqz.jpg">

[oldrider]

"The war of terror", cunningly disguised as "the war on terror" and a compliant media....:facepalm:

But but but we are the good guy's .................................................. ............ aren't we? :mellow: Aren't we? :scratch:

[SPman]

This is the tone of a lot of stuff coming out of the US at the moment

We are being ruled by thespians and gangsters. Far from incompetent, they are lethally good at what they do. They create crisis after crisis, then solve each by sacrificing countless innocents while enriching themselves. Whatever the challenge, domestic or international, their only goals are to gorge and to gouge, so they never fail, actually, even when they miscalculate. They’ll make money blowing things up, and they’ll make even more pretending to fix what they have destroyed. They never pay for their mistakes, only you do, and when they function perfectly, you will still pick up the check, if not bleed. In fact, you will pay even more if they’re in top form

http://www.counterpunch.org/dinh08052011.html

History shows it does not matter whether an economic system is based upon feudalism or capitalism or socialism, or any ism. When it fails to accommodate the masses, the masses force change.
And there's a slowly building feeling of pissed offedness in the USA.
.....

[oldrider]

The world financial experts appear to be behaving like the rider in SPman's avatar!

It is very scary to think that they are out of control .... but to my mind it's even scarier if they "are" in control and know what they are doing! :sick:

Why? .... Because they sure are not doing it for the welfare of you, me and the ordinary Joe Blogg's of the world!

Too many of the conspiracy theories that circulate on the internet etc, are gaining credibility through the actions of the so called "good guy's" of the free world!

All the ism's and ist's of the world fall down due to the human fragility of the individuals placed in control, rather than the theory it's self, unfortunately!

We don't have to look far beyond our own shores for examples of that! :facepalm:

And we are just chicken shit by comparison! :stoogie: ...... :brick:

[Vacquer0]

They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

[SPman]

They sure are.
Robert Reich gives a good summation of the current "Crisis"
http://readersupportednews.org/images/stories/alphabet/rsn-I.jpgmagine your house is burning. You call the fire department but your call isn't answered because every fire fighter in town is debating whether there will be enough water to fight fires over the next ten years, even though water is plentiful right now. (Yes, there's a long-term problem.) One faction won't even allow the fire trucks out of the garage unless everyone agrees to cut water use. An agency that rates fire departments has just issued a downgrade, causing everyone to hoard water.
While all this squabbling continues, your house burns to the ground and the fire has now spread to your neighbors' homes. But because everyone is preoccupied with the wrong question (the long-term water supply) and the wrong solution (saving water now), there's no response. In the end, the town comes up with a plan for the water supply over the next decade, but it's irrelevant because the whole town has been turned to ashes.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/279-82/6953-focus-slouching-toward-a-double-dip

All the ism's and ist's of the world fall down due to the human fragility of the individuals placed in control, rather than the theory it's self, unfortunately!
I wouldn't call it fragility..........rather, a ruthless disregard for anyone except themselves......

[oldrider]

They sure are.
Robert Reich gives a good summation of the current "Crisis"
http://readersupportednews.org/images/stories/alphabet/rsn-I.jpgmagine your house is burning. You call the fire department but your call isn't answered because every fire fighter in town is debating whether there will be enough water to fight fires over the next ten years, even though water is plentiful right now. (Yes, there's a long-term problem.) One faction won't even allow the fire trucks out of the garage unless everyone agrees to cut water use. An agency that rates fire departments has just issued a downgrade, causing everyone to hoard water.
While all this squabbling continues, your house burns to the ground and the fire has now spread to your neighbors' homes. But because everyone is preoccupied with the wrong question (the long-term water supply) and the wrong solution (saving water now), there's no response. In the end, the town comes up with a plan for the water supply over the next decade, but it's irrelevant because the whole town has been turned to ashes.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/279-82/6953-focus-slouching-toward-a-double-dip

I wouldn't call it fragility..........rather, a ruthless disregard for anyone except themselves......

When you are up to your arse in alligators, it hard to appreciate that the original intention was to drain the swamp! :mellow: (now, what was their original intention?) :confused:

[pete376403]

http://robertreich.org/ has lots of interesting comments on the situation, such as:
"John Boehner said Tuesday the Republicans got “90 percent of what we wanted” from the budget deal. So presumably he and his colleagues are willing to take responsibility for some 450 points of today’s mammoth 513-point drop in the Dow Jones Industrial Average."
But no, Obama will get the blame for this.

[oldrider]

http://robertreich.org/ has lots of interesting comments on the situation, such as:
"John Boehner said Tuesday the Republicans got “90 percent of what we wanted” from the budget deal. So presumably he and his colleagues are willing to take responsibility for some 450 points of today’s mammoth 513-point drop in the Dow Jones Industrial Average."
But no, Obama will get the blame for this.

http://robertreich.org/post/6595110483 ... From the above site.

A & B fighting for the benefit of C!

We fight among ourselves over which "political party" is best for us!

Meanwhile C finances and directs the parties to do what is best for C!

A & B should be working together to control the behaviour of C! :yes:

So, is Labour's capital gains tax plan really the tool for building a strong middle class in New Zealand then? :confused:

Apparently not, according to Robert Reich, it is just another Tax loophole for C! :sick:

[NighthawkNZ]

Debt increase by presidents;
Reagan 186%
Bush 54%
Clinton 41%
Bush II 72%
Obama 23%

meh next...

[Vacquer0]

If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in Delta Airlines one year ago you would have $49.00 today! If you purchased $1,000 of shares in AIG you would have $33.00 If you purchased $1,000 of shares in Lehman Brothers you would have $0.00 today. But, if you purchased $1,000 worth of beer, drank all the beer, turned in the aluminum cans for recycling, you would have $214.00.

Therefore the best current investment plan is to drink heavily & recycle. It is called the 401-Keg Plan..."

[Edbear]

If you had purchased $1,000 of shares in Delta Airlines one year ago you would have $49.00 today! If you purchased $1,000 of shares in AIG you would have $33.00 If you purchased $1,000 of shares in Lehman Brothers you would have $0.00 today. But, if you purchased $1,000 worth of beer, drank all the beer, turned in the aluminum cans for recycling, you would have $214.00.

Therefore the best current investment plan is to drink heavily & recycle. It is called the 401-Keg Plan..."

You're probably correct; of all the "investments" that are guaranteed to lose money, beer and wine lose the least.

[Edbear]

Now it's France's turn to face a downgrade, witness emergency talks going on now...

Spain, Italy and France are three of the biggest European economies and beyond a bailout option. The US has hit the wall and that leaves Germany and England. Any predictions on them..? <_<

[Woodman]

gotta admit that I don't really understand all this so here are some questions.

Who do all these countries owe money too?

What could anyone really do if the USA said fuck you and just didn't pay?

If they all just owe money to each other then surely some debts must cancel each other out?

[Edbear]

The bankruptcy laws, at least here, mean your debt is cancelled due to your inability to pay and you have a "stand down" period of three years before you can run a business again or have other restrictions placed upon you. Your creditors simply stand the loss and can't do anything to recover the debt.

What that translates to on a world scale, is that the simple answer is for the world to cancel all debt and start again from scratch. However, everyone would have to accept a loss and financial deals and contracts wouldn't be worth the paper they were written on. Everyone goes back to square one and that will hurt a lot of people and coporations, governments and businesses around the world.

It could in theory be done, but it would require unity of all nations in agreement as to how it will work in practice with one entity to oversee the process of reconstructing the world's economy, i.e. the UN?

You can easily see the difficulty of doing this with such a huge imbalance of resources between nations and the critical differences in government and administration of the nations. It has taken centuries to reach this point in the Earth's "development" and along with the problems of social/civil unrest, political unrest, crime and violence, etc. etc. it all becomes too hard.

No one has the power and authority to force change as for everyone who believes he knows how to fix things, there are 1,000 others to oppose him directly. That's why the US has failed to appease Standard and Poors and got a downgrade anyway. Obama was powerless to force the changes he felt were necesary in the face of Republican opposition and the Republicans got most of what they wanted instead.

France may be a different matter, as Sarkozy has the numbers in government. NZ, too, has the numbers in power but of course, as everywhere, there will always be a very vocal opposition to anything proposed.

[oldrider]

The true wealth of a country or community is it's ability to produce and consume goods and services.

The balance between the cost of production (compared to the purchase power derived from that production) and consumption is where new money is created.

Gross Production = %100 in $ and Gross income derived = %75 in $ .... %25 in $ has to be created so that production can be consumed.

If that %25 is created as an interest bearing debt then the % difference will gradually increase until consumption stops and we have a recession .... bust!

Bust is usually followed by "WAR"! (no problem financing a war and reshuffling the money pack)

The war creates shortage which is followed by a boom period which gradually deteriorates back to a recession followed by a bust!

This cycle just keeps on repeating it's self, war, boom, bust, war boom etc etc!

The banks are the only ones that continually profit from it, so it it seems.

Always look to see who benefits and the controllers of world finance are always there!

Try getting food to the starving so that they can live! :no:

Try getting arms and ammunition to them so that they can kill one another! :yes:

The only purpose of producing goods and services is consumption!

Nobody consumes arms and munitions voluntarily so someone has to arrange their consumption and who better to consume than the ill-informed and unwary!

The same people that control world finance control those arrangements too .... we the people should be so lucky! :mellow:

[Brian d marge]

The true wealth of a country or community is it's ability to produce and consume goods and services.

The balance between the cost of production (compared to the purchase power derived from that production) and consumption is where new money is created.

Gross Production = %100 in $ and Gross income derived = %75 in $ .... %25 in $ has to be created so that production can be consumed.

If that %25 is created as an interest bearing debt then the % difference will gradually increase until consumption stops and we have a recession .... bust!

Bust is usually followed by "WAR"! (no problem financing a war and reshuffling the money pack)

The war creates shortage which is followed by a boom period which gradually deteriorates back to a recession followed by a bust!

This cycle just keeps on repeating it's self, war, boom, bust, war boom etc etc!

The banks are the only ones that continually profit from it, so it it seems.

Always look to see who benefits and the controllers of world finance are always there!

Try getting food to the starving so that they can live! :no:

Try getting arms and ammunition to them so that they can kill one another! :yes:

The only purpose of producing goods and services is consumption!

Nobody consumes arms and munitions voluntarily so someone has to arrange their consumption and who better to consume than the ill-informed and unwary!

The same people that control world finance control those arraingements too .... we the people should be so lucky! :mellow:
i m sorta going to disagree, not with what you wrote but with the basic premis that a countries weather is measured by the ability to produce and consume in the traditional sense to a idea that an individual is wealthy if he has a quality of life. therefore a countries measure of wealth is measured by the quality of life for the lowest members of that society
and in this respect western society fail miserably ......
greed is what's causing the problem and as son as we shift away from a growth greed model in to a sustainable egalitarian one ....London a town near you is all you have to look forward to
again I think we can have both, markets for luxury items, sustainability for basic needs
All we need is a strong minded pollution, ( thanks spell check that was the perfect word)...politician

Stephen

[mashman]

All we need is a strong minded pollution, ( thanks spell check that was the perfect word)...politician


That's what we currently have isn't it? a whole bunch of them... all "voting" (:killingme) on each others proposals on their merits :blink:, and then choosing the ones that best fits with what they think the people of their country deserve. Ploppyticians (bloody spellchecker :shifty:) are too busy having a career to address anything of any real consequence, strong minded or not. Voting on issues they may well not agree with, but, because they owe the other guy a vote... and then calling it expediency... blackmail more like. Don't they realise that the votes they're trading has a direct affect on the lives of 4.something million people...

What we need is a group of non-political folk for a change imho, no PM, just a group of guys and gals that sort things out, making decisions that are positive for everyone (or as bloody close to). It ain't that hard to make a decision... seems like our ploppyticians can't make decisions without seeking advice.

They annoy me somewhat :innocent:... oooooo where's ma pitchfork and torch

[SPman]

Obama was powerless to force the changes he felt were necesary in the face of Republican opposition ..... No he wasn't! He displayed his typical lack of moral authority and caved, like the ineffectual little war monger he is, whilst spouting ever increasing meaningless rhetoric to justify his position!

Obama could have invoked the 14th Amendment, saying that the government is always going to pay the debts, that can’t be questioned. He could have issued a $1 trillion platinum coin, worth maybe $50, to the Federal Reserve and retired the government debt. There were all sorts of technicalities that he could have done. He didn’t propose to do any of them.

[Vacquer0]

No he wasn't! He displayed his typical lack of moral authority and caved, like the ineffectual little war monger he is, whilst spouting ever increasing meaningless rhetoric to justify his position!

I agree. You are much more polite than I am, though.

[Edbear]

Has anyone considered that those in the government over there are directly involved and if any of your suggestions were the best option, why couldn't everyone of them agree?

Or is it that none of us are there, none of us are involved, and none of us have any idea of the issues save what we read or hear in the media?

We are all armchair critics, armed with an almost complete lack of real knowlege or understanding of the situation thousands of miles and trillions of dollars removed from our own lives...

We are simple folk, in a simple country with fewer people in total than most other cities in the world, let alone countries... Far, far removed from the reality of life elsewhere.

[imdying]

We are all armchair critics, armed with an almost complete lack of real knowlege or understanding of the situation thousands of miles and trillions of dollars removed from our own lives...

We are simple folk, in a simple country with fewer people in total than most other cities in the world, let alone countries... Far, far removed from the reality of life elsewhere.What a load of shite. The population of NZ is 4.4 million people, there are only 42, out of 37,000, cities in the world with a greater population than that. Most... pffft, hardly.

If you don't like the fact that people discuss things they don't have in depth knowledge of, then you'd be best fucking off somewhere else.

[oldrider]

i m sorta going to disagree, not with what you wrote but with the basic premis that a countries weather is measured by the ability to produce and consume in the traditional sense to a idea that an individual is wealthy if he has a quality of life. therefore a countries measure of wealth is measured by the quality of life for the lowest members of that society
and in this respect western society fail miserably ......
greed is what's causing the problem and as son as we shift away from a growth greed model in to a sustainable egalitarian one ....London a town near you is all you have to look forward to
again I think we can have both, markets for luxury items, sustainability for basic needs
All we need is a strong minded pollution, ( thanks spell check that was the perfect word)...politician

Stephen

True, we go through all the positive and negative phases at different stages of the cycle that I suggested occurs so the sweet spots that you say you desire are definitely achievable!

All we have to do is get rid of the cycle and take away the power from those that benefit by controlling it!

Maybe I am just caught up in the "someone to blame syndrome"!

If we can't have Utopia I don't see why we should stop aiming for it though!

Why do politicians think it's OK for the electorate to suffer a % of unemployment while they increase their own numbers to oversee it? :mellow:

[Ocean1]

a countries measure of wealth is measured by the quality of life for the lowest members of that society

No, that's the measure of a particular individual's wealth.

Anyone interested in a meaningful evaluation of the wealth of a group might more sensibly use that group's mean std of living.

[Edbear]

What a load of shite. The population of NZ is 4.4 million people, there are only 42, out of 37,000, cities in the world with a greater population than that. Most... pffft, hardly.

If you don't like the fact that people discuss things they don't have in depth knowledge of, then you'd be best fucking off somewhere else.

Put your knickers back on... Splitting hairs when my point is obvious. :violin:

It amuses me how people see the answer as really obvious and simple and roundly condemn and criticise those making the decisions, those actually involved and who know all the facts. As I said, armchair critics... Conspiracy theories are also highly amusing.

To discuss a matter you have little knowledge about should involve doing some research for yourself to ascertain just what the facts are and the full story is, surely?

[Indiana_Jones]

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/RFTEQC7Aq2k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

-Indy

[SPman]

Yes Indy - if only it were that simple.

Like it or not, what happens in the USA affects US!

It pays to have some idea of what's actually happening over there....

[mashman]

It amuses me how people see the answer as really obvious and simple and roundly condemn and criticise those making the decisions, those actually involved and who know all the facts. As I said, armchair critics... Conspiracy theories are also highly amusing.

To discuss a matter you have little knowledge about should involve doing some research for yourself to ascertain just what the facts are and the full story is, surely?

There is only one answer... for now anyway :laugh:.

A full cup isn't always a good thing... ommmmmmmmmm

[oldrider]

Interesting commentary. http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/a_leaderless_nation.html

On the election trail Obama said "Yes we can"! :yes: Now well on into his presidency "no we can't"! :no:

Apparently it is someone else's fault! .... We (USA) will always be a triple AAA country! Tui moment here? :mellow:

[mashman]

Interesting commentary. http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/a_leaderless_nation.html


"Those of us who were bewitched by his eloquence on the campaign trail chose to ignore some disquieting aspects of his biography: that he had accomplished very little before he ran for president, having never run a business or a state; that he had a singularly unremarkable career as a law professor, publishing nothing in 12 years at the University of Chicago...and that...he had voted 'present' (instead of "yea" or "nay") 130 times, sometimes dodging difficult issues."

but but but, he received a Nobel Peace prize for all of his good work waaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaa...

[Edbear]

It's not getting any better for them is it..?

http://www.3news.co.nz/Foreclosures---on-the-front-line/tabid/421/articleID/222178/Default.aspx

[Vacquer0]

This has been happening for a few years. What you don't see in the news is the decimated communities, broken homes and suicide statistics. If you seek the truth here you sure the fuck don't watch the news in the U.S. Happy every time I see someone paying attention.

[lakedaemonian]

Will the US default?

No.

Why?

Because it doesn't HAVE to.

It will simply continue to sh!t on it's creditors by paying bills with US Dollars that continue to decrease in value.....and the cost to the US for NOT defaulting and devaluing the dollar is that the US dollar will eventually lose it's status as THE global reserve currency...until then the US dollar is the flawed bit of paper the world uses and will continue to use.

We will eventually see the Yuan/Yen, Euro, and US Dollar as the globally dominant currencies.....but without one single currency running the show in terms of global exchange.

Gold will play a role in the transition...hence it's relentless increase in nominal US dollar value and why many central banks around the world hold gold reserves.

[oldrider]

It's not getting any better for them is it..?

http://www.3news.co.nz/Foreclosures---on-the-front-line/tabid/421/articleID/222178/Default.aspx

Our banks are just the same, the "them" of which you speak .... can just as easily be us!

It's really just a matter of time, not "if"!

And

lakedaemonian

Will the US default?

No.

Why?

Because it doesn't HAVE to.

It will simply continue to sh!t on it's creditors by paying bills with US Dollars that continue to decrease in value.....and the cost to the US for NOT defaulting and devaluing the dollar is that the US dollar will eventually lose it's status as THE global reserve currency...until then the US dollar is the flawed bit of paper the world uses and will continue to use.

We will eventually see the Yuan/Yen, Euro, and US Dollar as the globally dominant currencies.....but without one single currency running the show in terms of global exchange.

Gold will play a role in the transition...hence it's relentless increase in nominal US dollar value and why many central banks around the world hold gold reserves.

True! ...... This post #168 is correct!

[Edbear]

Our banks are just the same, the "them" of which you speak .... can just as easily be us!

It's really just a matter of time, not "if"!

And

lakedaemonian

Will the US default?

No.

Why?

Because it doesn't HAVE to.

It will simply continue to sh!t on it's creditors by paying bills with US Dollars that continue to decrease in value.....and the cost to the US for NOT defaulting and devaluing the dollar is that the US dollar will eventually lose it's status as THE global reserve currency...until then the US dollar is the flawed bit of paper the world uses and will continue to use.

We will eventually see the Yuan/Yen, Euro, and US Dollar as the globally dominant currencies.....but without one single currency running the show in terms of global exchange.

Gold will play a role in the transition...hence it's relentless increase in nominal US dollar value and why many central banks around the world hold gold reserves.

True! ...... This post #168 is correct!

The biggest difference is that over here the banks haven't been as reckless and greedy as to lend 120% the value of the property to those unable to afford it, so while there have been and will continue to be mortgagee sales, the losses to the banks are not significant enough to collapse them.

The logical and simple rule not to borrow more than you can comfortably afford to repay, and leaving a safety margin of surplus in your income has been ignored by most people around the world in either their greed or ignorance in a quest to "have it now!" The trouble with bubbles is that they inevitably burst and too many were riding the bubble of growth in reckless abandon including the banks and lending institutions, along with a number of governments around the world.

NZ and Aus have been to a large extent, much more responsible, but still affected by the rest of the world's woes, unfortunately.

[oldrider]

I found this a bit disturbing http://www.thecomingdepression.net/countries/eurasia/the-nine-chinese-men-who-control-the-fate-of-america/

The son of a friend is married to a daughter of one of these Chinese guy's.

Communism .... depending who you are, it's just another way to spell capitalism! :mellow:

Will America default, see post #168 again.

[blue rider]

The biggest difference is that over here the banks haven't been as reckless and greedy as to lend 120% the value of the property to those unable to afford it, so while there have been and will continue to be mortgagee sales, the losses to the banks are not significant enough to collapse them.

The logical and simple rule not to borrow more than you can comfortably afford to repay, and leaving a safety margin of surplus in your income has been ignored by most people around the world in either their greed or ignorance in a quest to "have it now!" The trouble with bubbles is that they inevitably burst and too many were riding the bubble of growth in reckless abandon including the banks and lending institutions, along with a number of governments around the world.

NZ and Aus have been to a large extent, much more responsible, but still affected by the rest of the world's woes, unfortunately.

a good read on the mortgage crisis (USA)/financial crisis(USA and Europe) / and the worldwide banking hooligans

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com

by all means the USA has already defaulted, before the eyes of the world actually,
they have just delayed the crash by raising the Debt Ceiling - barely. However that debacle is going to start again in 2012, so stock up on popcorn, we are still in for a ride, and that coupled with the presidential elections, oh my......especially with the current crops of republican contenders .......all the entertainment one could want. The world be fucked, but at least we have had laugh.

Disclaimer: I do not believe that Obama is the best thing after sliced toast n butter. But compared to Michelle Bachman, Newt Grinrich, Rick Perry (oh the hair), and the other borgs....oh dear

As for the housing crisis here at home, if more people loose their jobs, or go part time, have wages that can't keep up with inflation and raising costs overall, we will see what is happening in the States.
People with jobs loosing their homes because the mortgage/service fees/rates etc can no longer be sustained.

and then there is always Europe........that's when the poo hits the fan....!

[oldrider]

From one of the sites in post by "blue rider" above! http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/08/video-the-bankers-as-the-enemy-of-humanity.html

He may well be right but he doesn't offer any kind of alternative, just someone to blame! (As Hitler, Stalin and the like have done before him!)

If he is right I would like to hear / read his alternative in the same simple terms as his condemnation!

"blue rider" are you able to locate and post such an explanation? :hitcher:

[blue rider]

From one of the sites in post by "blue rider" above! http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/08/video-the-bankers-as-the-enemy-of-humanity.html

He may well be right but he doesn't offer any kind of alternative, just someone to blame! (As Hitler, Stalin and the like have done before him!)

If he is right I would like to hear / read his alternative in the same simple terms as his condemnation!

"blue rider" are you able to locate and post such an explanation? :hitcher:

one of the better answers for "credit default swaps" was formulated by "B" of a blog called "Moon of Alabama"
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2008/09/solution-declar.html

another one would be to start regulating every day Joe/Jane Ordinarys banking:

a. regulate fees and charges that banks can charge their customers
b. cap interests charged on credits cards/loans, wtf 17.99% Ursury Yes/NO?
b. increase interest rates on savings
c. regulate the hand outs of credit cards - Students don't need credit cards!

- supposedly we are lending them our money trough deposits and banks use these funds to lend to others to start businesses etc.
However, it is now impossible to exists without a bank account, a credit history, and soon a credit rating. In the US already unemployed people with bad credit rating (doh....they are unemployed and might be behind bills - as they have no real benefits there) will not be employed because of it.

So without offering any service to us we are obliged to hand them our money - per our weekly pay or other income, as cash transactions - especially after 9/11- have been virtually outlawed. Yet we pay for the use of ATMs, Cheques, Card uses etc.
A large amount of profit in banking is not made by loaning and investing, but by charging fees. Any fee that you pay to have your money "managed" is not going into the economy, your mortgage or student loan. It goes to "Share Holder" value.

Make the mortage product again something that can be understood, long term, stop interest only mortgages, allow people to re-finance without being penalised etc.

I mean one can get penalized (i.e. charged a fee!) for wanting to pay back a loan early? WTF? The bank should be happy, as a paid loan is reduced risk.


A really good read is Paul Krugman, the man predicted the melt down in 2007 - 2008 , he actually got a Nobel Prize in Economics - go figure. (same on calculated risk, go to the Archives and find some posts of TANTA - she had the great gift of putting bank legalese in to english),

[blue rider]

as per credit default swaps,
Lets say the banks loans you some cash, and then runs a couple of bets of you defaulting on that loan? Well eventually it might just be more profitable for the bank if you can not pay back your loan.
So lets say some one starts a rumor, saying you are short in cash, you can not pay, and all your investors start panic selling.....and you run out of money and can not pay back your loan?
who wins, qui bono?
The bank that loaned you the cash, and then run a racket against you. They win the bet and you still owe them money. Bingo ain't life sweet.

That is legal, and called ethical banking.

another good read is Nouriel Robuini
http://www.economonitor.com/nouriel


this is it for me today and my amateur view on the very corrupt banking/finance industry.
The fact that our dear Leader Keys is precisely that - a banker/trader, just does inspire me with great confidence for the future. Yeah, Tui....again.

[Brian d marge]

Was going to do this big well thought out post of who to blame and why

Then I thought ,,,, Who cares ,,cant change it ,,,

Jesus boots , and What should we do from Prof Jane Kelsey's book;
Take economic fundamentalism seriously ..
* Nip it in the bud ..
* Be skeptical about fiscal and other "crises" ..
* Watch for the blitzkrieg ...
* Remember, the conservatives are not always the worst ..
* Take economics seriously ..
* Expose the illogic of their theory ..
* Evaluate the arguments carefully ..
* Challenge hypocrisy ..
* Expose 'stacking of the deck' .. ( I am not sure what this is )
* Maximize every political obstacle ..
* Maintain a strong civil society and popular sector ..
* Work hard to maintain solidarity ..
* Do not compromise the labour movement ..
* Employ the politics of political embarrasment ..
* Reinforce the concept of an independant public service ..
* Encourage community leaders to speak out ..
* Avoid anti-intellectualism ..
* Establish well-resourced critical think-tanks ..
* Develop alternative media outlets ..
* Raise the levels of popular economic literacy ..
* Educate popular and sectoral groups in advance ..
* Resist 'market-speak' ..
* Be realistic and avoid nostalgia ..
* Be pro-active and develop real alternatives ..
* Re-think identity and alliances ..

no debt and reduce your exposure to the economic wind ....

Aquaponics baby thats the future , perma culture .........go green

Sod JK

Stephen

ps the above is from a blog I wrote a while back

http://mustnt-grumble.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2010-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=27

[oldrider]

Any political party or person that adheres to the current banking system is simply more of the same! :mellow:

The world banking and monetary system is the common denominator that needs to change and be reformed! :shifty:

[NighthawkNZ]

Any political party or person that adheres to the current banking system is simply more of the same! :mellow:

The world banking and monetary system is the common denominator that needs to change and be reformed! :shifty:

Ah... for the love of money is the root of all evil...

[Edbear]

Ah... for the love of money is the root of all evil...

"...and by reaching out for this love, many have stabbed themselves all over with many pains!"

[Vacquer0]

Any political party or person that adheres to the current banking system is simply more of the same! :mellow:

The world banking and monetary system is the common denominator that needs to change and be reformed! :shifty:

You are correct, sir.

[mashman]

Any political party or person that adheres to the current banking system is simply more of the same! :mellow:

The world banking and monetary system is the common denominator that needs to change and be reformed! :shifty:

until we're all asked, we won't know what other choices there are. I know of 1 "viable" alternative :whistle:

[Vacquer0]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6067/6051523237_3e9661691f.jpg

[mashman]

that should buy a pint of milk.

[blue rider]

that should buy a pint of milk.

http://www.usagold.com/images/hyperinflation.jpeg

interesting read actually http://www.usagold.com/germannightmare.html

[mashman]

interesting read actually http://www.usagold.com/germannightmare.html

I don't think it matters which side wins. The money will always be there for the victor and the conquereds cost.

Did you ever see the series (the below isn't the series), The Ascent of Money? Very well put together. I didn't realise it was a book :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg4e7VueJtw

[Indiana_Jones]

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/bkyCrx4DyMk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

-Indy

[jonbuoy]

until we're all asked, we won't know what other choices there are. I know of 1 "viable" alternative :whistle:

A "money less" system?

[Spyke]

Hey guys, since we can't do much for america, we could start with our country that is far away at the bottom of the world.

freedom of speech nz

lets make a website that all enrolled nzers can use to vote on political decisions big and small. a polling site with a difference in that basically all of nz could have their say on the matters that effect us!
login in with your electoral number and password to a protected site where you can have your say on time on each bill,law, everything that comes up in the running of nz?

a forum to raise ideas that can be heard by the people that count?
moderators to stop bad grammer lol.


i'm no website designer but i think this could change the way the world works, we the people of nz could have our say from the comfort of our key boards. now is the time of the key board warrior to stand up and be counted on!!!

I love NZ and don't want us to be run by the big companies but by all of us, lets make a change. Our generation needs all the more experienced to help, as you guys know the history behind all this and have had true protests and all the good living so we can learn a thing or two!

peace, may as well say legalise pot to take the bottom of the drug market out aswell :Punk:

[lakedaemonian]

A really good read is Paul Krugman, the man predicted the melt down in 2007 - 2008 , he actually got a Nobel Prize in Economics - go figure. (same on calculated risk, go to the Archives and find some posts of TANTA - she had the great gift of putting bank legalese in to english),

DID Krugman REALLY predict the meltdown?

The last time I checked he is firmly in the camp of "borrowing the US out of debt".

Krugman was issued a nobel prize....by the same crowd that gave President Obama a nobel prize for things he didn't do yet.

In my opinion, Krugman is part of the same special interest Republicrat machine that has corrupted the US political and economic machine.

I would strongly encourage you to read up on Eric Janszen, the founder of iTulip.com.

He has personally helped me shape my opinions and perceptions on economics/finance and helped my family largely avoid this mess.

And to the best of my knowledge, no one else even comes close to the consistent accuracy of his analysis.

No one knows who he is because he doesn't "talk the book" of mass financial media advertisers...so he doesn't make it on TV.

He is a wealthy guy who could just keep his mouth shut, but is disgusted by what he sees, and is trying to help others focus their own personal opinions and feelings.

Most people have SOME idea of what's wrong.....Eric Janszen has helped a bunch of people I know to bring it into proper focus and understand quite complex concepts and problems by breaking it into manageable pieces....I really rate the guy and his site....most of the content is free...a bit is behind a paywall.

[lakedaemonian]

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6067/6051523237_3e9661691f.jpg

Awesome......on a trip through Africa a few years ago I picked up a couple trillion in Zimbabwean currency to keep and show my kids and use it to teach the value of real money.

Most of mine is prior to the trillion dollar note issue......I've got heaps of 50 and 100 billion notes though. :)

[lakedaemonian]

Any political party or person that adheres to the current banking system is simply more of the same! :mellow:

The world banking and monetary system is the common denominator that needs to change and be reformed! :shifty:

It will happen....again....it's happened before....and we are in the process of it happening again.

When we read about it in history, we tend to think about things getting flipped like a light switch.....but it takes a while.

One thing that is just about guaranteed is that gold will play a role......why else would central banks still possess it?

It's also worth having a look at some of the things going on today, like:

Venezuela nationalizing it's gold mining industry.

Venezuela threatening to shift it's gold reserves held in New York, London, and Geneva to Brazil/China maybe.

All steps down the road to what comes next......whcih is probably gold spiking to some truly ridiculous level for a brief spasm sometime over the next 5-10 years...likely just after Joe Bloggs buys 1-2 ounces.

Either that or war.

The US is sitting on a multi-trillion dollar military capability that will surely slowly fade along with it's fading national wealth.....do the muppets in power just sit by and watch it rust...or do they leverage it?

Have a look at root causes of WWII.....in both Europe and Asia.

Economic depression and resource issues/embargo

We know Hitler and Tojo were a pair of dickheads......but what led to their rise to power?

The more things change the more they stay the same.

My guess some folks in power might try another war to force a reboot(or force quit for the Mac fans) in favor of the US.

"Reduce" China/India/Pakistan and run the planet for another generation or two.

Interesting times.......

[mashman]

A "money less" system?

yes.............

[jonbuoy]

yes.............

Its a nice idea, problem is humans aren´t nice.

[mashman]

Its a nice idea, problem is humans aren´t nice.

I'm not expecting a magic bullet. But a cashless local economy? It'd all but ARSEFECK the "need" for crime... and its associated social fall out. I'd call that a start. Equal opportunity? :yes:. I'm not expecting that the lazy will suddenly grow a conscience :blink:, and that people won't kill themselves slowly with cigs, booze etc..., motorcycle collisions :shifty:, falling pianos... pah. I am under no illusion that life would just go on, and that world markets would probably shit their pants at the thought etc... We're all grown ups? and the bills would still be getting "paid"

What you gonna do with your time? become lazy? Would you consider working 5 hours a day for 5 days per week for your government, if in return they gave you financial and personal freedom. Same shit. Different day?

More time for motorcycle collisions :).

[mashman]

well they're trying their damndest to rekindle the economy by trying bringing China into line (http://news.yahoo.com/china-us-currency-bill-repercussions-090135830.html) ... like that's is gonna help anything...

And a bug FUCK YEAH to the 99 percent (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/protestors-behind-occupy-wall-street-want-133222625.html) Kia Kaha.

[blue rider]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-28/secret-fed-loans-undisclosed-to-congress-gave-banks-13-billion-in-income.html

"The Fed didn’t tell anyone which banks were in trouble so deep they required a combined $1.2 trillion on Dec. 5, 2008, their single neediest day. Bankers didn’t mention that they took tens of billions of dollars in emergency loans at the same time they were assuring investors their firms were healthy. And no one calculated until now that banks reaped an estimated $13 billion of income by taking advantage of the Fed’s below-market rates, Bloomberg Markets magazine reports in its January issue. "




"The Fed, headed by Chairman Ben S. Bernanke, argued that revealing borrower details would create a stigma -- investors and counterparties would shun firms that used the central bank as lender of last resort -- and that needy institutions would be reluctant to borrow in the next crisis."


'Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, says banks “were either in bad shape or taking advantage of the Fed giving them a good deal. The former contradicts their public statements. The latter -- getting loans at below-market rates during a financial crisis -- is quite a gift.”

this articles makes for some excellent reading, i suggest a generous drink or two to go with the article

[mashman]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-28/secret-fed-loans-undisclosed-to-congress-gave-banks-13-billion-in-income.html

"The Fed didn’t tell anyone which banks were in trouble so deep they required a combined $1.2 trillion on Dec. 5, 2008, their single neediest day. Bankers didn’t mention that they took tens of billions of dollars in emergency loans at the same time they were assuring investors their firms were healthy. And no one calculated until now that banks reaped an estimated $13 billion of income by taking advantage of the Fed’s below-market rates, Bloomberg Markets magazine reports in its January issue. "

"The Fed, headed by Chairman Ben S. Bernanke, argued that revealing borrower details would create a stigma -- investors and counterparties would shun firms that used the central bank as lender of last resort -- and that needy institutions would be reluctant to borrow in the next crisis."

'Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, says banks “were either in bad shape or taking advantage of the Fed giving them a good deal. The former contradicts their public statements. The latter -- getting loans at below-market rates during a financial crisis -- is quite a gift.”

this articles makes for some excellent reading, i suggest a generous drink or two to go with the article

got nae mer bling to give... nice find.

Remarkable... given that these people can pluck money out of thin air should they desire. At least it keep us from realising that the system is broken :blink: and imho is so fundamentally flawed that it has eroded society to the point where we believe the shite that they spout. Someone's having a good hard laugh... other than me that is.

[blue rider]

got nae mer bling to give... nice find.

Remarkable... given that these people can pluck money out of thin air should they desire. At least it keep us from realising that the system is broken :blink: and imho is so fundamentally flawed that it has eroded society to the point where we believe the shite that they spout. Someone's having a good hard laugh... other than me that is.


you want me to really scare you........:D read this

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/707568901000000-how-and-why-banks-increased-total-outstanding-derivatives-record-107-trillion-6


i feel all safe and secure knowing that dear Leader is a banker/trader with awesome money making skills

[mashman]

you want me to really scare you........:D read this

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/707568901000000-how-and-why-banks-increased-total-outstanding-derivatives-record-107-trillion-6


i feel all safe and secure knowing that dear Leader is a banker/trader with awesome money making skills

Where money is concerned I am unscarable anymore... there is no mystery as to where money comes from and what it can do, a glance at the news shows the results.

Not that I understood 99% (wahhhahahahahahaaaa) of that article, but that's some impressively big numbers... but I'm not worried, we're selling our assets, she'll be right :killingme

[Paul in NZ]

Oh well - here we go again...

What a topsy turvey world it is... Suddenly the Russians and the Chinese look like the level headed reliable types and the 'mercans look like unstable 3rd world loonies holding the whole world hostage to a right wing nutcase minorities demands..

Defunding the Obamacare initiative based on a dodgy political idea and ignoring that the majority of americans seem to like the idea is very naughty. Its come about because of the outrageous gerrymandering allowing unrepresentitive representation which is NOT what America was all about. It really has become the land of corporate control and screw the public....

My prediction - eventually the Unitied States will suffer rebellion of states much like Russia did. Except it will be an economic seperation rather than a ethnic one. California is already a big enough economy to arguably go it alone - Texas has never need too sure and if any of them do split off the shit fight will leave anything the Russians went through looking like a pre schoolers game of tiddly winks...

[baffa]

Paul: you might find this interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSjGouBmo0M&feature=player_embedded

Americans already pay more per capita for healthcare than most countries, and yet the vast majority of them get nothing.

Regarding the fact that their Govt is a halarious waste of time and money, run by idiots who cannot seperate God, country, and firearms, to be honest Im not surprised it has come to this. Neither side wants to back down, so thousands of people and agencies suffer their stupidity.

[mashman]

I wish it would collapse and collapse hard. The people will form community's as they have done in other places around the world. The rich and powerful will, ironically, become targets. Bring it.

[Brian d marge]

I for one have taken a different approach.
I embrace our new Chinese overlord. I have married into their culture and now we have a half-cast offspring.
Huan yīng guǎng lín wěidà de tǒngzhì zhě

fyi the rest of you are fucked. Sorry.

Fk I hope the dont remember the wee party the Japanese had there a few years back

Im screwed

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

Interesting background on the problem, here...

http://english.pravda.ru/business/finance/15-07-2011/118499-europe_usa_debts-0/
Dear old Christine , pro american. Who would have thunk it
and being the head of the IMF and all ...shame , shame

Stephen

[awa355]

What the hell is " Gerrymandering" ??

[Brian d marge]

Gerrymandering is a daytime tv show in the states
v popular I am told

Stephen

[mashman]

What the hell is " Gerrymandering" ??

I thought he was the guy out of Dad's Army... learn something new everyday.

[ellipsis]

...since 1770'ish the americans have been killing themselves over their rights to freedom...it's a tumultuous and sad history they have in such a short timespan...so many died for fuck all freedom...

[Brian d marge]

I thought he was the guy out of Dad's Army... learn something new everyday.
Thats CAPT Gerrymandering

fk

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

...since 1770'ish the americans have been killing themselves over their rights to freedom...it's a tumultuous and sad history they have in such a short timespan...so many died for fuck all freedom...

Thats true .. but dont tell em , otherwise the brits , the germans, the nigerians,the somalians all giving it there best for freedom
I dont know why
Just open a bank , you will be free in a heartbeat

Stephen

[Swoop]

What the hell is " Gerrymandering" ??

Gerrymandering of votes is essentially the drawing up of electoral boundaries (electorates) to favour political parties &/or candidates.

[Paul in NZ]

Gerrymandering of votes is essentially the drawing up of electoral boundaries (electorates) to favour political parties &/or candidates.

Yup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering#United_States

As I see it - the extreme ends of the political world in the USA are increasingly at odds with each other and all trying to 'win' an idealogical point regardless of the consequences.. And in this case the consequences could be HUGE.... If one of these nut case groups allows this to eventually happen then it may well trigger the depression to end all depressions. Frankly - from a historical perspective I'm amazed there has not been some kind of organised rebellion in the USA to date....

[sgtp]

Defunding the Obamacare initiative based on a dodgy political idea and ignoring that the majority of americans seem to like the idea is very naughty. Its come about because of the outrageous gerrymandering allowing unrepresentitive representation which is NOT what America was all about. It really has become the land of corporate control and screw the public....

My prediction - eventually the Unitied States will suffer rebellion of states much like Russia did. Except it will be an economic seperation rather than a ethnic one. California is already a big enough economy to arguably go it alone - Texas has never need too sure and if any of them do split off the shit fight will leave anything the Russians went through looking like a pre schoolers game of tiddly winks...

wtf are you smoking? the only people left in america that still "want" it are the people (govt, unions, obama campaign contributors...) that are exempt from its unconstitutional mandates. This law will kill america for good if its not tossed out, though that might be exactly what the agenda has been all along, Cloward-Piven style, etc....

I will agree that a revolution is neccessary, however. America is at a tipping point, I just hope the pendulum swings the right way.

[avgas]

Fk I hope the dont remember the wee party the Japanese had there a few years back

Im screwed

Stephen
Yeah - I eagerly await to see more chest beating over some crappy islands also.

[Paul in NZ]

wtf are you smoking? the only people left in america that still "want" it are the people (govt, unions, obama campaign contributors...) that are exempt from its unconstitutional mandates. This law will kill america for good if its not tossed out, though that might be exactly what the agenda has been all along, Cloward-Piven style, etc....

I will agree that a revolution is neccessary, however. America is at a tipping point, I just hope the pendulum swings the right way.

Sorry - you may well be correct that I'm probably a bit dim from the 70's still... but

Can you explain what you mean by unconstitutional mandates? I may be wrong but my impression is that this is a law that was effectively voted on by the populace in the last presidential election and that large numbers of people have been pretty keen on it? I don't think its been challanged on constitutional grounds?

This aside I think it is definately arguable that healthcare reform is well overdue in the USA.

As for the revolution comment - no I don't agree its a good idea at all but rather that given the pressures on the society and the distance between the extreme ideological ends of the society that some organised group has not taken up arms and rebelled. Particularly in the more coherent states.

[sgtp]

sorry, its been a crazy workday so I do not have the time spell it all out for you, but this video will give you a taste of whats to come with obamacare if its not tossed out in its entirety:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i86iEa56EOY


For the record, all mainstreem reports on this disasterouse bill have essentially been propaganda, the real storry comes from the common man, who will be turning from citizen to subject if the tides dont turn soon in America. The way things are going there its hard to know where to focus your outrage, as everything is going to shit at the same time...sad days are coming

[slowpoke]

For the record, all mainstreem reports on this disasterouse bill have essentially been propaganda, the real storry comes from the common man, who will be turning from citizen to subject if the tides dont turn soon in America. The way things are going there its hard to know where to focus your outrage, as everything is going to shit at the same time...sad days are coming

So you are saying the Democrats own mainstream media? To paraphrase yourself: what are you smoking?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/14/opinion/keller-obamacare-the-rest-of-the-story.html?_r=0

The common man you speak of seems to be loving the concept, as should any free thinking human being who thinks of genuine outcomes rather than party mantra:

"You realize those computer failures that have hampered sign-ups in the early days — to the smug delight of the critics — confirm that there is enormous popular demand. You have probably figured out that the real mission of the Republican extortionists and their big-money backers was to scuttle the law before most Americans recognized it as a godsend and rendered it politically untouchable.

What you may not know is that the Affordable Care Act is also beginning, with little fanfare, to accomplish its second great goal: to promote reforms to our overpriced, underperforming health care system."

New York Times

[Paul in NZ]

sorry, its been a crazy workday so I do not have the time spell it all out for you, but this video will give you a taste of whats to come with obamacare if its not tossed out in its entirety:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i86iEa56EOY


For the record, all mainstreem reports on this disasterouse bill have essentially been propaganda, the real storry comes from the common man, who will be turning from citizen to subject if the tides dont turn soon in America. The way things are going there its hard to know where to focus your outrage, as everything is going to shit at the same time...sad days are coming

Citizen to subject?

Bahahahah

Are you for real? "bless god?'" FFS Golly wild bill - u is a great christian...

The vast majority of people in the USA are victims of the system designed to 'free' them. You are free only if you can afford to be free in that system... I note 'wild bill' didnt offer a private medical insurance cover example for the guy with type 1. (and type 1 ISNT that common anyway. Type 2's are more common) I'll be a sack of rancid pork bellies that if his mate tried to get cover as a type 1 with a normal insurance outfit the $$ amount would be 3 times that assuming they would even touch him..

Hell - I'm a type 1 - you try and get affordable health or life insurance HERE with that tag....

Sheesh...

[avgas]

Affordable Care Act
Can you explain the difference between the ACA and Obamacare?

[Paul in NZ]

Can you explain the difference between the ACA and Obamacare?

ACA is its official name...

[avgas]

ACA is its official name...
Saying one is supported by the general populus supported or against is a joke.....they don't know its the same thing.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/sx2scvIFGjE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Paul in NZ]

All thats done is show how party politics have clouded these issues. People are so wedded to their theoretical ideals (imposed on them by radicals in the parties) that they cannot apply common sense to anything.

Healthcare in the USA has been a major issue for decades and at last someone has the balls to do something and the nazis are baying for blood. They are not 100% sure why they are baying for it but since a black guys fronting it then its probably anti american. These are the same morons who don't think Obama was born in the USA...

[oldrider]

All thats done is show how party politics have clouded these issues. People are so wedded to their theoretical ideals (imposed on them by radicals in the parties) that they cannot apply common sense to anything.

Healthcare in the USA has been a major issue for decades and at last someone has the balls to do something and the nazis are baying for blood. They are not 100% sure why they are baying for it but since a black guys fronting it then its probably anti american. These are the same morons who don't think Obama was born in the USA...

You would get the same result in NZ with peoples attachment to the two main political parties! :laugh: ... Real independent thinkers NZr's! :lol:

[Banditbandit]

Amerika's fucked .. and it's going to screw up the world economy because two parties are so entrenched in their bullshit ideologies that they can't even sit down and talk sensibly ...

I hope China ends up owning them .. Amerika owes China billions ... and the Chinese just might call in the debt ... (pretty amazing when the so called "Greatest Capitalist nation in the world" owes its economic survival to the most populated Communist country ...)

[oldrider]

Amerika's fucked .. and it's going to screw up the world economy because two parties are so entrenched in their bullshit ideologies that they can't even sit down and talk sensibly ...

I hope China ends up owning them .. Amerika owes China billions ... and the Chinese just might call in the debt ... (pretty amazing when the so called "Greatest Capitalist nation in the world" owes its economic survival to the most populated Communist country ...)

Maybe they are really just two covers of the same book! :rolleyes:

[Banditbandit]

Maybe they are really just two covers of the same book! :rolleyes:

Yeah .. and I know which one is the arse end ...

[avgas]

Yeah .. and I know which one is the arse end ...
Which end is the arse end of a book?
(look up how the chinese read)

[Paul in NZ]

The irony is that all this started when they started to 'export' all the blue collar jobs... The real issue isnt Obama care or ACA or whatever but that one group can stop a democratically passed initiative dead in its tracks and effectively stop a country and hold the whole world at gun point because they and a few of their crooked mates are upset?

Honestly this shits me - if they default then there is going to be hell to pay for the whole world including us...

The Chinese are looking a lot more appealing by the minute.

[oldrider]

The Chinese are looking a lot more appealing by the minute.

The only thing communist about China is the colour of their flag these days anyway! :rolleyes:

America and China are as interchangeable as were Hitler and Stalin .. so different that they end up behaving exactly the same in the end! :brick:

[baffa]

Amerika's fucked .. and it's going to screw up the world economy because two parties are so entrenched in their bullshit ideologies that they can't even sit down and talk sensibly ...

I hope China ends up owning them .. Amerika owes China billions ... and the Chinese just might call in the debt ... (pretty amazing when the so called "Greatest Capitalist nation in the world" owes its economic survival to the most populated Communist country ...)

America doesnt "owe" China billions. These things dont get called in. There is nothing wrong with Countries having debts, it works a little differently than with individuals. Most countries owe each other and own parts of each others currencies.

The real issue is the way the country is run. Amercians pay more for healthcare than we do, and most of them dont get anything for it.
If you need a fake hip or similiar, Amercian corporations can charge you whatever they like, its all about profiteering, there is no consideration for the client and being cost effective.

[avgas]

The Chinese are looking a lot more appealing by the minute.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3uHVAJHxqWY/T42QIL4ciAI/AAAAAAAAIws/RrllaRe3Lck/s1600/Sexy+Chinese+model+with+White+Dress+shirt+and+biki ni+(8).jpg

[avgas]

America doesnt "owe" China billions. These things dont get called in. There is nothing wrong with Countries having debts, it works a little differently than with individuals. Most countries owe each other and own parts of each others currencies.

The real issue is the way the country is run. Amercians pay more for healthcare than we do, and most of them dont get anything for it.
If you need a fake hip or similiar, Amercian corporations can charge you whatever they like, its all about profiteering, there is no consideration for the client and being cost effective.
$29K here for replacement hip. +whatever ACC stumps up.

Not saying U.S. would be better (I expect worse) - but the light doesn't shine out of the worlds arsehole either.

As for debts being called in - happens from time to time. I suspect you don't remember the whole US$ = Gold, fixed international currency debacle.

This is usually what happens when debts get called in.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_by_country
Obvious one - Germany pre-WWII. But look at what happened then.....

[Akzle]

stupid fucken jews.

no. actually. the jews are the ones raking it in from this. they're the ones with an interest in maintaining the quo.

stupid fucking citizens propping up the bullshit jew system. it's you homos that will loose


vive la pizza!

[Drew]

Obviously I haven't read the whole thread. Fuck, I wouldn't understand most of it anyway.

Has anyone considered what happens to New Zealand if China calls in their debt from America? If the yanks have to pony up the cash, they're gonna call in all their debts and we're all of a sudden...fucked.

[Indiana_Jones]

So they're sorted till the start of next year?

Why do they bother putting a limit on? all they do is bloody raise it every time they get to it.

-Indy

[Banditbandit]

Which end is the arse end of a book?
(look up how the chinese read)

Yeah .. see .. in my own subtle way .. that was my point ...

[mashman]

So they're sorted till the start of next year?

Why do they bother putting a limit on? all they do is bloody raise it every time they get to it.

-Indy

They need to sort out who gets what costs for pushing the limit. If they need to up the limit by $1 trillion, then they need to add on an extra $500 million to pay the lawyers and grease the palms of those who can make the whole process tricky for them. You can't just add $50 trillion, coz that'd be unfair as everyone would start doing it.

Honestly, we'd get more done and wouldn't have to worry about the markets etc... if money wasn't an issue ;)... but hey, stupid entitlement ridden fuckheads are stupid entitlement ridden fuckheads.

[Ocean1]

Obviously I haven't read the whole thread. Fuck, I wouldn't understand most of it anyway.

Has anyone considered what happens to New Zealand if China calls in their debt from America? If the yanks have to pony up the cash, they're gonna call in all their debts and we're all of a sudden...fucked.

We owe America money?

FWIW I believe US debt is something of the order of US$270,000 per family. There's just no way they can do anything other than dramatically slash spending, all the wailing is just an argument over what they’re going to cut.

[Ocean1]

but hey, stupid entitlement ridden fuckheads are stupid entitlement ridden fuckheads.

Fk'n dole bludgers, eh? Make 'em dig ditches I reckon...

[mashman]

FWIW I believe US debt is something of the order of US$270,000 per family. There's just no way they can do anything other than dramatically slash spending, all the wailing is just an argument over what they’re going to cut.

270k? Maybe it's not. (http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/unitedstates)


Fk'n dole bludgers, eh? Make 'em dig ditches I reckon...

Nah, the stupid entitlement ridden fucktards who be believe that they are worth what they earn moreso than someone else. Them fuckers. The ones who keep blaming the bludgers. The ones who would dig the ditch and claim they did it by themselves.

[Brian d marge]

Fk'n dole bludgers, eh? Make 'em dig ditches I reckon...

Quite right
Along with those I would add those in min security prisons

Yoofs on pd

Nothing wrong with a days hard yakka ,

Stephen

not a piss take trust me

[Ocean1]

270k? Maybe it's not. (http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/unitedstates)


OK. So each US citizen owes US$54577.

And each US houshold owes US$54577.

Now, is that public debt? Or private...

Do all you wrong people join clubs and shit? Only you seem to latch onto sooooo much utter shit it can't be purely coincidental...



Nah, the stupid entitlement ridden fucktards who be believe that they are worth what they earn moreso than someone else.

Those that others believe are worth what they earn? Them ones?

Fine upstanding body of individuals, salt of the earth, yer dole bludgers'd be toast without them.

[Ocean1]

Quite right
Along with those I would add those in min security prisons

Yoofs on pd

Nothing wrong with a days hard yakka ,

Stephen

not a piss take trust me

I don't actually have a problem with dole bludgers spending their day however they want.

It's just that employment legislation has fabricated one hellava lot of dole bludgers...

[mashman]

OK. So each US citizen owes US$54577.

And each US houshold owes US$54577.

Now, is that public debt? Or private...

Do all you wrong people join clubs and shit? Only you seem to latch onto sooooo much utter shit it can't be purely coincidental...

Those that others believe are worth what they earn? Them ones?

Fine upstanding body of individuals, salt of the earth, yer dole bludgers'd be toast without them.

Dunno. If I was gonna have a pop I'd say both public and private it being household debt... but then looking at NZ's it looks as though it's only public.

Of course it's a club, we like people.

No not them ones, the other ones, the ones that believe that they are worth what they supposedly earn.

Funny, yer fine upstanding individuals would be broke without subsidising them thar bludgers, not to mention that yer money would be fooked.

[Ocean1]

No not them ones, the other ones, the ones that believe that they are worth what they supposedly earn.

What the fuck would you know about whether anyone else is worth what they earn, supposedly or actually?



Funny, yer fine upstanding individuals would be broke without subsidising them thar bludgers, not to mention that yer money would be fooked.

Yeah, 'cause those that actually produce shit of value really really need to pay for parasites that produce fuck all.

Difficult to see how you could get any wronger.

[Drew]

What the fuck would you know about whether anyone else is worth what they earn, supposedly or actually?




Yeah, 'cause those that actually produce shit of value really really need to pay for parasites that produce fuck all.

Difficult to see how you could get any MORE WRONG.Couldn't help myself.

[mashman]

What the fuck would you know about whether anyone else is worth what they earn, supposedly or actually?

Yeah, 'cause those that actually produce shit of value really really need to pay for parasites that produce fuck all.

Difficult to see how you could get any wronger.

There's plenty of people who are underpaid and there's plenty of people overpaid and somewhere in the middle there's a lolly scramble for what's left. A tiered system of earning based on the whims of a market that rewards effort on the basis of how much money is available v's complexity of the task. It's a fuckin bad joke for many people innit?

You almost brought a tear to my eye. Produce shit of value? It's not what is produced that is valued, it's how much money it makes.

Dats only coz you don't got a fuckin clue and can only see your view as the right one despite the fact that the system if absolutely jam packed with people who produce high valued goods that are next to fuckin useless.

[Wingnut]

The fault is in "Fractional Reserve Lending"....

Currencies need to be based on something tangible. Gold would've been ideal....

[Brian d marge]

The fault is in "Fractional Reserve Lending"....

Currencies need to be based on something tangible. Gold would've been ideal....

enters the system at roughly the population growth , problem is the movement and the booms and busts it creates

Charles Dickens , Oliver twist , the passage about the philosopher seeing the impact of their ideas on this small child , is all about the gold standard

Stephen

[Ocean1]

There's plenty of people who are underpaid and there's plenty of people overpaid

Then they should probably find an employer that pays them what they're worth.


A tiered system of earning based on the whims of a market that rewards effort on the basis of how much money is available v's complexity of the task. It's a fuckin bad joke for many people innit?

But it's not based on how much money is available. It's based on the value of the product, according to those that pay for it. And you think you'd be better deciding what the product's worth, based on some flaky notion that all pigs are equal.

They're not. But, y'know, next time you want to buy some shit and you think the dude selling it is hugely overcharging then feel free to leave your cash in your pocket. Just like everyone else.


Produce shit of value? It's not what is produced that is valued, it's how much money it makes.

If you thought hard about that statement for too long you'd be in serious danger of coming to the generally accepted conclusion that money is in fact the unit the world uses to value shit.

Doesn't fit your deranged assertions about money falling out of thin air, magically onto those that don't deserve it, though. Do I got that right this time?


Dats only coz you don't got a fuckin clue and can only see your view as the right one despite the fact that the system if absolutely jam packed with people who produce high valued goods that are next to fuckin useless.

Shirly not? You should tell the poor people buying that useless shit! They obviously don't know! How horrible! Tragedy of the century, right there!

Now fuck off and earn your employer some cash for a change, rather than distributing spittle all over your laptop and making yourself a tired joke.