Cheesecutter campaign - losing the battle

[RiderInBlack]

Jul 17 - Life Saving - 60 Minutes (11:30 min near end of story) (http://ondemand.tv3.co.nz/60-Minutes-Life-Saving/tabid/59/articleID/3504/MCat/22/Default.aspx):bs: Re: WRB
(http://ondemand.tv3.co.nz/60-Minutes-Life-Saving/tabid/59/articleID/3504/MCat/22/Default.aspx)

:facepalm: Any comments from BRONZ or MAG? Or is the fight over and the battle lost for bikers when it comes to WRB?

[Maha]

Anne emailed 60 mintues as soon as the programme finished...

The reply was....
''thank you for your feedback concerning our show - we appreciate you
taking the time to let us know your thoughts
I will forward your correspondence onto the team behind the story''

Dont know what our beloved action groups did (if anything?) ..Not sure if mag is still going?
Personally I feel the WRB thing is a now a lost cause.

[RiderInBlack]

Well if MAG is nearly history and BRONZ a weak as a wet rag on the WRB issue, it must be time for me ta sell the bike, and get in ta the Kayak Fishing instead.

[Maha]

Well if MAG is nearly history and BRONZ a weak as a wet rag on the WRB issue, it must be time for me ta sell the bike, and get in ta the Kayak Fishing instead.

Thought you were right into paddle power already?

[Maha]

Realistically, how long has it been since that one and only protest ride up the southern m/way? and nothing since then.
In general, those that ride bikes and have an issue with any part of it dont stand up make a noise about it, until someone with the nouse does. Then the band wagon is suddenly gets full of good ideas.
If the pushers dont keep pushing then it was a giant waste of everybody's time.
That very scenario happened again at then end of 09'.

[RiderInBlack]

Thought you were right into paddle power already?Aye Fish'n & Snorking from the Yak now. Bike's Rego is on hold over Winter & I will have to decide whether ta sell "Bagheera" come Summer. Just not getting out on the bike as much as I used to. So if we are loosing the Rego/WRB/Biker Rights Wars, then what is the point of me holding on ta it?

[RiderInBlack]

Realistically, how long has it been since that one and only protest ride up the southern m/way? and nothing since then.Aye, couple of years back that 60Minute Story would have caused a stir of posts on here. Now apart from Anne's action and your posts, this issue is lying dead in the water.
If Bikers don't wake-up then Land-transport will just continue ta do what they like with-out a care for Bikers. Nick Smith will have won too, with his pet Bikers helping him ta get bikers ta tow the line.

[BoristheBiter]

Unfortunately majority rules and as it is basically all cars that are crossing the center line they will look at what does the best for them.
If i remember what was said it was 1 car every ten days was hitting them. If that is right I say leave them there.
I know what will happen to me if i hit one and pray i never do but since they have been up there has been what two people have hit them.

I think this is a dead cause as it has not been proved they are the menace to bikes that was stated.

[BoristheBiter]

Aye Fish'n & Snorking from the Yak now. Bike's Rego is on hold over Winter & I will have to decide whether ta sell "Bagheera" come Summer. Just not getting out on the bike as much as I used to. So if we are loosing the Rego/WRB/Biker Rights Wars, then what is the point of me holding on ta it?


If you can't answer that yourself then what hope is there?

I only get to ride once a week due to work and come Sunday rain or shine I'm on a bike, be that dirt or road.
They will never get rid of bikes for they are just indescribably fun.

[Berries]

Well if MAG is nearly history and BRONZ a weak as a wet rag on the WRB issue, it must be time for me ta sell the bike, and get in ta the Kayak Fishing instead.
Sounds like it. What response did you get to your complaint?

[RiderInBlack]

Sounds like it. What response did you get to your complaint?Anne did not me see
Anne emailed 60 mintues as soon as the programme finished...

The reply was....
''thank you for your feedback concerning our show - we appreciate you
taking the time to let us know your thoughts
I will forward your correspondence onto the team behind the story''

[Berries]

Yeah but if you care about an issue, and it sounds like you do about this one, why rely on MAG or BRONZ? They may not even have the same viewpoint as you.

I once had a job where I had to deal with complaints. A letter from a representative body like BRONZ was worth no more than a letter from an individual to me. Fifty individual responses were worth far more than something from a body representing any amount of people.

Both were worth more than petitions though, which are fucking pointless if you ask me.

[RiderInBlack]

I think this is a dead cause as it has not been proved they are the menace to bikes that was stated.WRB Have been proven as a major hazard for Motor Bikes, especially Over-Sea, but no-one is listening here. And now it seems they have even conned Bikers here that WBR are OK going by some of the posts on here:facepalm:
At this rate you Guys will believe that the Bikoi was waste of time too, and that ACC are justified in raising Bike Rego Levies.
Yep NZ is full of Two Legged Sheep happy ride the truck to the meat-works.

[bogan]

Aye, couple of years back that 60Minute Story would have caused a stir of posts on here. Now apart from Anne's action and your posts, this issue is lying dead in the water.
If Bikers don't wake-up then Land-transport will just continue ta do what they like with-out a care for Bikers. Nick Smith will have won too, with his pet Bikers helping him ta get bikers ta tow the line.


To be fair though, how many of us actually watch 60 minutes? I'm not sure if the quality of reporting used to be any better, but that sort of program often just shows the slant that the majority of viewers want. Not a fan of those on demand sites either, bloody hard to navigate, can someone point me in the direction of where to give feedback?

From MAG's point of view, we are still trying to open dialogue with TPTB, and trying to keep up with any real developments such as studies on this issue. We would like to see more bikers getting stuck in on this sort of thing as well obviously, as berries says, numbers speak louder than organisations.

[yungatart]

Well if MAG is nearly history and BRONZ a weak as a wet rag on the WRB issue, it must be time for me ta sell the bike, and get in ta the Kayak Fishing instead.

Did you do anything Doug? Write to someone? MP? Local paper?

See, everybody wants someone else to take the lead, and do something about it, when it should be that if an issue upsets you, you should be the one to do something about it.

[BoristheBiter]

WRB Have been proven as a major hazard for Motor Bikes, especially Over-Sea, but no-one is listening here. And now it seems they have even conned Bikers here that WBR are OK going by some of the posts on here:facepalm:
At this rate you Guys will believe that the Bikoi was waste of time too, and that ACC are justified in raising Bike Rego Levies.
Yep NZ is full of Two Legged Sheep happy ride the truck to the meat-works.

See you have missed my point.

How many bikes have crossed the centre line and killed someone? quite a few.
How many cars have done the same? more than bikes have.
So TPTB have to remove the common denominator which is cars. More cars cross the centre line and kill themselves and others then any other forms of transport on the roads.

The fact is they stop cars from cross into on coming traffic and that is what they have been designed to do, But if it stops someone crossing into my lane whether i am on my bike or in the cage than i am all fore it and if it makes me pay more attention to the road then what is the harm?

As for the rest of your post i just can't be bothered.

[RiderInBlack]

Did you do anything Doug? Yep I stirred you guys up.
As my riding days are in decline, it will soon be no longer a problem for me. I start this thread to Bring that Story to KB's attention & to see if any in the Biker World still cared. With the replies I have got it seems that very few still do enough to do anything about it. Glad to hear that MAG is at least still concerned about WRB.
If and when Riders want to show some action on the WRB or ACC Levy Front, drop me a line. I might just still have a bike, or be willing to show them some support even if I end up no longer riding. But if there is not enough interest out there, then there is no point in me bothering for a Hobby that I am not much involved in any more.

Best of luck,
Doug.

[James Deuce]

The fact is they stop cars from cross into on coming traffic and that is what they have been designed to do, But if it stops someone crossing into my lane whether i am on my bike or in the cage than i am all fore it and if it makes me pay more attention to the road then what is the harm?

.

That's there is the problem. In NZ they are deployed incorrectly. WRBs are designed to be installed in the middle of a central reservation at least 20m wide. They deform a lot to absorb energy. They deform enough to place a vehicle in your path if you happen to be opposite at the wrong moment.

[BoristheBiter]

That's there is the problem. In NZ they are deployed incorrectly. WRBs are designed to be installed in the middle of a central reservation at least 20m wide. They deform a lot to absorb energy. They deform enough to place a vehicle in your path if you happen to be opposite at the wrong moment.

NZ roads in general are the problem followed with bad planing and bad installation and even worse maintenance.

I know what you mean about the 20m strip bit. So many places have it, works very well with no barriers only a deep channel covered in grass.

[RiderInBlack]

That's there is the problem. In NZ they are deployed incorrectly. WRBs are designed to be installed in the middle of a central reservation at least 20m wide. They deform a lot to absorb energy. They deform enough to place a vehicle in your path if you happen to be opposite at the wrong moment.Plus as their are now, They are not very effective against trucks or some cars. The argument from a Rider's perspective is never been that there should be no barriers. It's been if their are going to put barriers in for our safety, then they should take all roads users in to consideration when instilling them. As the WRB stand at the moment, they do not. In the case of the Rider, they actually represent an added risk, End Of Story.

[BMWST?]

The point here is wrb are designed to prevent vehicles from crossing iinto the other lane,and they do that very well.That of course means as motorcyclists that helps us too as we wont be confronted with a car(maybe wouldnt stop a truck) in our lane.
So median barriers are a good thing right?What is the alternative median barrier that IS motorcycle freindly.?
Just playin devils advocate here:yes:

[James Deuce]

The point here is wrb are designed to prevent vehicles from crossing iinto the other lane,and they do that very well.

No they don't. There have been two motorcyclist deaths in NSW in the last twelve months from vehicles hitting the barrier and deforming it enough to impede progress for the motorcyclist on the other side of the road. There have been injuries in both NZ and Australia from vehicles hitting the barrier and deforming it so that vehicles on the other side of the road have an unavoidable collision. They don't work as they are deployed and they've never been suggested as a solution for any vehicle over 2 tonnes.

If you use them, you need to have a central reservation. Even then some vehicles will submarine under the barrier almost unimpeded and others will crush the barriers and ride over. They work well when implemented correctly and only then for a percentage of traffic.

[BMWST?]

No they don't. There have been two motorcyclist deaths in NSW in the last twelve months from vehicles hitting the barrier and deforming it enough to impede progress for the motorcyclist on the other side of the road. There have been injuries in both NZ and Australia from vehicles hitting the barrier and deforming it so that vehicles on the other side of the road have an unavoidable collision. They don't work as they are deployed and they've never been suggested as a solution for any vehicle over 2 tonnes.

If you use them, you need to have a central reservation. Even then some vehicles will submarine under the barrier almost unimpeded and others will crush the barriers and ride over. They work well when implemented correctly and only then for a percentage of traffic.

ok now we getting somewhere,cos we now have an argument!Is there a alternative to wrb?

[DEATH_INC.]

ffs, this has been done to death. This is why we don't get anywhere, we can't even agree with ourselves, or even listen to each other. There are alternatives, they've been gone through before. Look back at some of the posts in the cheesecutter threads.

[James Deuce]

ok now we getting somewhere,cos we now have an argument!Is there a alternative to wrb?
Yes. Problem is concrete barriers are slightly more expensive to make than the doings for WRBs. I've been knocked off by a truck swerving across three lanes of highway and came off and slid along a concrete barrier. I broke my wrist from putting my hand out to "save" myself when landing, but sliding along the barrier in leathers was less painful by far than the bottom of a ruck.

WRBs and armco can be put up faster than concrete barriers and TPTB claim that they are more flexible solutions than concrete barriers. Neither are very motorcycle friendly though, as the posts have been left exposed in NZ. European countries usually legislate three rails of armco and cladding for WRB posts.

Yes, it has been done to death. The end result is that just like ACC levies and shifting the burden of skill and visibility to motorcyclists, cost is the main driving factor in Government decisions around roading, not saving lives. That's the only way you can explain Fulton Hogan being handed road maintenance contracts IMO.

Always remember that it is OK to kill or injure someone on NZ roads, either through incompetence or the negligence inherent in poor infrastructure maintenance practices. That way you'll have a better mental starting point when using the road.

[Berries]

There have been two motorcyclist deaths in NSW in the last twelve months from vehicles hitting the barrier and deforming it enough to impede progress for the motorcyclist on the other side of the road.
So what would you recommend if the alternative is no barrier at all?

[James Deuce]

So what would you recommend if the alternative is no barrier at all?
I wouldn't recommend anything. I simply don't think that deformable barriers are an adequate solution for highway traffic in NZ or Australia, especially when that highway has no median reservation.

People dredged up a crap load of information for and against WRBs, so the research is relatively easy to find via KB. Read some and make up your own mind. My mind is damaged.

[RiderInBlack]

So what would you recommend if the alternative is no barrier at all?Ay the risk of repeating myself:

The argument from a Rider's perspective is never been that there should be no barriers. It's been if their are going to put barriers in for our safety, then they should take all roads users in to consideration when instilling them. As the WRB stand at the moment, they do not. In the case of the Rider, they actually represent an added risk, End Of Story.I believe that is also JD's stand point.

ffs, this has been done to death. This is why we don't get anywhere, we can't even agree with ourselves, or even listen to each other. There are alternatives, they've been gone through before. Look back at some of the posts in the cheesecutter threads.Agreed but Bikers should not lye down at let the topic die. Unless you Guys are happy with more of this stuff being instilled as it is at the moment without regard for Rider Safety.

[Ocean1]

or Australia, especially when that highway has no median reservation.

Highways in Aus are far more likely to be separated by at least a stone's throw of field and / or shrubbery. Increasingly more commonly completely separate carriageways.

But making roads in level sand is cheap, the cost of doing that here is far higher, with fewer people to pay for it.

Concrete barriers are the go for most applications here, without a doubt.

[Berries]

I wouldn't recommend anything. I simply don't think that deformable barriers are an adequate solution for highway traffic in NZ or Australia, especially when that highway has no median reservation.In the example you gave I imagine that without the barrier both those riders may well have been killed anyway. I wonder how many people died before they decided to put the barrier in? I would be surprised if the number of head on crashes had increased as a result, even if there are better barrier types for median use available.


People dredged up a crap load of information for and against WRBs, so the research is relatively easy to find via KB. Read some and make up your own mind.Made my mind up years ago. Half my daily commute is alongside a median WRB and to be honest it doesn’t even figure as a hazard in comparison to some of the other stuff I have to put up with. If I worried about what I was going to hit after I have crashed I’d have stopped riding years ago.

[carver]

what is happened to the Cheesecutter campaign?

[Maha]

what is happened to the Cheesecutter campaign?

My reply from a ''sister thread'' posted in March...

WRBs/ACC Levies/Stealth Levies/Road Toll etc...lump it all in with the Climate change and Global warming fiasco....alot of talk but very little action, thats the way the Government like it.
Hundreds attended the Cheesecutter protest (whenever that was, cant remember exactly) and thousands attended the Levy protest in 09' ...but then it all went quite, failure to capitalize on the initial big bang spells the end to be honest.
Once again, thats the way the Government like it.

Several of us were told late last year by an MP that the Pollies were infact gobsmacked at the turnout in Wellington in 09'...jaw-dropped I think was the term used.
That moment can never be reclaimed.
Thats the way the Government like it.


Should be another thread due out in December...:yes:

[munster]

More bad news I'm afraid

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10746788

[Berries]

Interesting short in the latest Performance Bikes -

245345

[chasio]

No they don't. There have been two motorcyclist deaths in NSW in the last twelve months from vehicles hitting the barrier and deforming it enough to impede progress for the motorcyclist on the other side of the road. There have been injuries in both NZ and Australia from vehicles hitting the barrier and deforming it so that vehicles on the other side of the road have an unavoidable collision. They don't work as they are deployed and they've never been suggested as a solution for any vehicle over 2 tonnes.

If you use them, you need to have a central reservation. Even then some vehicles will submarine under the barrier almost unimpeded and others will crush the barriers and ride over. They work well when implemented correctly and only then for a percentage of traffic.

I'd like to include references to those fatal failures in something I'm writing, but couldn't turn up the details. Could you point me in the right direction, please?

[RiderInBlack]

More bad news I'm afraid

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10746788
So has MAG or BRONZ or anyone else responded to this dip woad Clive Matthew-Wilson's article http://www.dogandlemon.com/media/unprotected-roads-are-killing-motorists and at least set him on the right path to improve safety for all the road users, and not just for a select few cars? My bet is no, but would love to be wrong.

[riffer]

MAG doesn't really exist any more AFAIK in New Zealand.

BRONZ Wellington discuss these things regularly and may do so in the next committee meeting tomorrow.

Perhaps you could also help by finding evidence of instances where the cheesecutters have actually directly contributed to the harm of a motorcyclist?

I personally hate the things but have to admit there's a pile of evidence ATM that they have helped more than harmed.

I'd love more ammo to the contrary.

[Maha]

MAG doesn't really exist any more AFAIK in New Zealand.

BRONZ Wellington discuss these things regularly and may do so in the next committee meeting tomorrow.

Perhaps you could also help by finding evidence of instances where the cheesecutters have actually directly contributed to the harm of a motorcyclist?

I personally hate the things but have to admit there's a pile of evidence ATM that they have helped more than harmed.

I'd love more ammo to the contrary.

One death only (that I know of)....indirectly.
In saying that, you hit one you die.

[James Deuce]

I'd like to include references to those fatal failures in something I'm writing, but couldn't turn up the details. Could you point me in the right direction, please?

Email Two Wheels magazine because that's where I saw the reports. There was also another where a ute lost its load and dealt to a motorcyclist going the other way and the WRB clearly did nothing.

There was a truck on auckland's southern motorway that just used the WRB for a convenient way to tip on it's side and block the opposing lanes a little while ago too.

[riffer]

One death only (that I know of)....indirectly.
In saying that, you hit one you die.


Exactly. Not the prime cause.

Now let's compare the WRBs with the following:



lamposts
armco
head ons with other vehicles
farmers' fences

The WRBs don't look so bad any more do they?

Also, River Road (SH2) in Upper Hutt has just been WRBed. The have used a new style of vertical stanchion in which the vertical edges are completely rounded with an approx 25mm radius. I would venture the injury and death potential of those WRB stanchions has been significantly reduced.

Trust me, TPTB at Transit are very aware of the situation with the WRBs, and are investing a great deal of time looking at how to make them safer.

[Maha]

Exactly. Not the prime cause.

Now let's compare the WRBs with the following:



lamposts
armco
head ons with other vehicles
farmers' fences

The WRBs don't look so bad any more do they?

Also, River Road (SH2) in Upper Hutt has just been WRBed. The have used a new style of vertical stanchion in which the vertical edges are completely rounded with an approx 25mm radius. I would venture the injury and death potential of those WRB stanchions has been significantly reduced.

Trust me, TPTB at Transit are very aware of the situation with the WRBs, and are investing a great deal of time looking at how to make them safer.

Cant argue with the points.
...interesting reading with the following sentences.

[Berries]

In saying that, you hit one you die.
That's a bit of an exaggeration.

[riffer]

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

I'm still going to try very very hard not to test either of your hypotheses.

[James Deuce]

WRBs in NZ are installed contrary to design specs. They are not designed to separate two lanes of opposing traffic. They are designed to be used as a catch fence in the middle of a central reservation fifty meters or more wide. The stretch built into the barriers allows heavier vehicles to impinge on opposing traffic lanes in most of the installations in NZ.

The issue for motorcyclists in NZ is not the wires it's the posts. In most civilised European countries, the WRBs are being clad to prevent the dismemberment injuries that will be caused if a motorcyclist, or even a cyclist, becomes entangled in the uprights at speeds of 70km/hr and up. The same applies to the cheap arse way Armco is installed in NZ. Even Australia is starting to install a third, lower rail to prevent people being injurednby becoming entangled in the posts. I have performed a field trial on concrete barriers and much prefer hitting them at an oblique angle and sliding along them without injury to striking uprights and losing limbs.

I take it BRONZ doesn't agree that roadside furniture on major highways can be improved to help prevent injury to road users then? Someone needs to convince TPTB that motorcycles are valid transport, should be included in the transport plan, and roads designed accordingly. Or have you caved in to government pressure to label bikes leisure craft? Operated at the owner's express risk and only if the rider assumes all responsibility for visibility, skill, and any injury or death sustained in operating that leisure craft?

[DEATH_INC.]

Exactly. Not the prime cause.

Now let's compare the WRBs with the following:



lamposts
armco
head ons with other vehicles
farmers' fences

The WRBs don't look so bad any more do they?
Actually, I know of at least 1 person that has collided with each one of these things ( like 4 different people) including at least 2 of us that have gone through fences and lived to tell about it. I only know of 1 person that has hit a wrb, and he is not here now. :confused:
Admittedly I do know of some that haven't survived some of the above too.

[Ocean1]

Now let's compare the WRBs with the following:



lamposts
armco
head ons with other vehicles
farmers' fences



But nobody's suggesting replacing WRB with those things. The most common preference is concrete, so let's compare WRB to that, eh?

How many sports cars have ploughed under a concrete wall like the incident on Haywards hill a year or so ago?

How many SUVs have displaced concrete walls far enough into the opposing lane to hit oncomming traffic as has happened numerous times with WRB.

How many times have trucks rolled over concrete walls like they were'nt there?

And how many motorcyclists have been snapped in half by a concrete wall?

They're an abonimation, dude. Not because they don't reduce head-on collisions, but because they do it at the lethal expense of a minority, at very little saving in terms of monetary cost.

And the eliptical posts? They're an improvement, but nowhere near enough to justify their use.

[Katman]

Admittedly I do know of some that haven't survived some of the above too.

Collectively we know shit-loads.

[Berries]

I guess the thing with this thread and any other on wire rope barriers on KB is that it will just go round in circles. Some people hate them, some couldn't care less, and there are quite a few in the middle, but in the end typing on here won't change a thing. If you are concerned, you need to talk to and convince the people who can change things, NZTA.

[riffer]

I take it BRONZ doesn't agree that roadside furniture on major highways can be improved to help prevent injury to road users then? Someone needs to convince TPTB that motorcycles are valid transport, should be included in the transport plan, and roads designed accordingly. Or have you caved in to government pressure to label bikes leisure craft? Operated at the owner's express risk and only if the rider assumes all responsibility for visibility, skill, and any injury or death sustained in operating that leisure craft?

Let's get one thing straight okay? Just because I am a BRONZ member doesn't mean that every opinion I have is BRONZ policy.

Having said that, BRONZ are working hard on finding the correct way to address the issue. The problem is that at the moment, the numbers don't stack up. When we can prove these things actually are dangerous then we are going to get some traction.

And in terms of dangerous I mean providing actual evidence that they are causing injury and death to New Zealand motorcyclists.

Otherwise, all the opinions in the world will mean nothing. Find some evidence!

[James Deuce]

Let's get one thing straight okay? Just because I am a BRONZ member doesn't mean that every opinion I have is BRONZ policy.

Having said that, BRONZ are working hard on finding the correct way to address the issue. The problem is that at the moment, the numbers don't stack up. When we can prove these things actually are dangerous then we are going to get some traction.

And in terms of dangerous I mean providing actual evidence that they are causing injury and death to New Zealand motorcyclists.

Otherwise, all the opinions in the world will mean nothing. Find some evidence!

For God's sake man, all over the world WRBs are being removed if they're installed like they are in NZ and they are being clad with a polyethylene sheath if installed correctly to prevent limb entanglement. How about BRONZ get off their fat chuff and do their own research and try to prevent the sort of inuries that other Governments have acknowledged as an unaccaptable threat for motorcyclists from happening in NZ without sacrificing lives in the process?

[MSTRS]

They're an abonimation, dude. Not because they don't reduce head-on collisions, but because they do it at the lethal expense of a minority, at very little saving in terms of monetary cost.

:yes::first:



And in terms of dangerous I mean providing actual evidence that they are causing injury and death to New Zealand motorcyclists.


But - but - but...
ACC hit me with high levies. Where's the evidence that says I'm a liability?
The point being that the greater good is typically at the expense of individuals.

[Devil]

And in terms of dangerous I mean providing actual evidence that they are causing injury and death to New Zealand motorcyclists.


Here's my problem.
Why do we have to wait till death and injury occurs?

[BoristheBiter]

Here's my problem.
Why do we have to wait till death and injury occurs?

So does that mean we ban all forms of transport?

[Devil]

Of course not. That is not logical.

[riffer]

How about BRONZ get off their fat chuff and do their own research and try to prevent the sort of inuries that other Governments have acknowledged as an unaccaptable threat for motorcyclists from happening in NZ without sacrificing lives in the process?


Where's the evidence that says I'm a liability?


Here's my problem.
Why do we have to wait till death and injury occurs?

Because that's the way the system works. For better of for worse, Transit works on a cost benefit analysis. That's why you can't say "these things are dangerous so you should do something about it." They come back with "where's the evidence this is happening in New Zealand?". To a lesser extent they also look at Australian information too.

My call for evidence was based on the lack of resource we currently have in BRONZ. We really could do with some assistance on that.

If y'all would rather criticise BRONZ for the lack of results on your particular issue without being willing to help then so be it. But maybe people should think about how that's working out for them.

But please don't confuse a lack of available resource for an anti-motorcyclist policy.

[MSTRS]

If y'all would rather criticise BRONZ for the lack of results on your particular issue without being willing to help then so be it.

No criticism here (except as far as it appears BRONZ accepts WRBs as we know and love them are here to stay).
As for evidence...NZTA want test results, not anecdotal. I don't think there have been any tests anywhere, except for computer modelling. I mean, who is going to pilot a m/c into a WRB just to see what might happen?
It's not difficult to figure out what happens when a human body hits those posts/wires, and the growing number of deaths and maimings has been a catalyst for removal or retrofitting of covers (at least in Europe).

[riffer]

No criticism here (except as far as it appears BRONZ accepts WRBs as we know and love them are here to stay).

FACT: BRONZ Wellington Inc. does NOT accept the WRBs are here to stay and that there is nothing that can be done about them. I can't speak for any other BRONZ region.

[riffer]

And how many motorcyclists have been snapped in half by a concrete wall?

http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/mar/14/high-speed-motorcycle-crash-into-concrete-barrier/

http://www.seattlecaraccidentlawyerblog.com/2011/04/seattle_motorcycle_accident_ki.html

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1994-10-15/news/9410150108_1_motorcyclist-concrete-barrier-crash

http://gonebutnotforgotten.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/rte-97-crash-kills-motorcyclist/

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2010-02-21/news/os-turnpike-crash-kills-kissimmee-motorcy20100221_1_motorcycle-crash-osceola-candidate-crash-in-orange-county

http://www.4injured-losangeles.com/i-405-motorcycle-accident-kills-2/

http://www.newsday.co.tt/crime_and_court/0,145910.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2011/06/motorcycle_carrying_two_men_crashes_exiting_off_of _interstate_5.html

http://www.plg-pllc.com/washington-personal-injury/seattle-motorcycle-accident-leaves-one-dead-one-injured-bellevue-injury-attorney/

http://www.injuryinsider.com/2011/04/25/one-killed-child-injured-in-motorcycle-crash-near-safeco/

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-21/news/os-fatal-crash-orange-avenue-20110121_1_casselberry-man-motorcycle-crash-concrete-barrier

[riffer]

For the sake of balanced content, here is some evidence of WRBs contributing to motorcyclist deaths:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIAL/BIKES/news/BIKETRADER/41596.html

http://www.mravic.org.au/forum/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1017

It's a lot harder to find them.

[riffer]

From BRIFEN in Australia, who manufacture WRBs for Aussie, in response to a letter sent by a perthstreetbikes.com forum member who took them to task:

I acknowledge receipt of your email. Yes I am aware of the accident you mention, and would like to answer your email in a broader context and include comment on the recent death in Tasmania.

This is my 20th year of involvement with Brifen wire rope systems and the provision of a safer road environment is the one aspect that sustains my interest in the work. It is the very thought of protecting my "fellow man", my family and strangers alike that holds my interest. Wire rope barriers are very safe, indeed the safest of all barriers on several measures.

I am regularly in touch with motorcyclists, with police, with road authorities and with international road authorities. I know of no incident (and there have been very few) where our wire rope fence was the cause of death. If you have any details of a specific case please forward the Coroner's report and I will personally look at the case.

I personally have met with motorcycle groups since 1994, attended motorcycle gatherings and have participated in countless meetings with road authorities and road interest groups concerning motorcyclists. I am part of the Brifen Wire Rope Safety Fence world wide team for 20 years. We have looked at deaths as they are bought to our notice and not one death has been attributed to the Brifen fence.

On the contrary I had a motorcyclist phone me in September 1997 and thank me for introducing wire rope fences into Australia as the fence saved his life. The "incident" occurred in February 1997 near Alice Springs, when an experienced 48 year old motorcyclist riding a Ducati lost control on a broad bend at 140kph. The rider separated from his bike and both rider and bike slid independently towards the Brifen fence at an angle of 40 degrees. The rider took the impact with the post on his shoulder and cartwheeled along taking out three posts. His bike also took out three posts. (All these details were confirmed in writing from the road authority). When he rang me in September 1997 he had just returned from his first ride on that bike since the accident. He said - and I quote - "if it had been concrete barrier I would be dead, if had been a guardrail post I would be dead and if there was no barrier it was a long drop into a dry creek bed and I would be dead".

Now let us examine a recent accident that occurred on Sunday 6 January 2008 on the Bass Highway west of Devonport. Even "The Age" (refer extract below) got the facts wrong. Totally wrong.

The motorcyclist body never touched the fence. The poor rider simply fell and rolled 200 metres down the road. The bike impacted the fence and cartwheeled down the fence 214m. Local authorities said that the fence did it's job restraining and containing the bike. If the bike had of crossed the median into on coming traffic more death or injury may have resulted. I have been told that the estimated speed based on the projection of body parts and the bike path is between 200kph and 220kph. We will have to wait for the Coroner's report for better estimates.

There was a motorcycle accident in New Zealand (October 2007) which is still subject to a Coroners report but I can advise I was told that body parts were scattered over a 300 metre distance. There are more details which will come out in the Coroner's report but I am advised excessive speed in the midst of a three man race was a major factor. Other than Sunday's accident the most recent incident in Australia was in Perth in 2006 when a cyclist, I am told, was traveling at 200kph in a 100kph zone and hit a truck traveling at 100kph. The impact reportedly hurled the body through the air into the fence.

Unless we as a community start accepting responsibility for driver behaviour as being a factor in road death then constructive debate can go nowhere. Road barriers are designed and tested to meet specifications. Neither European specifications or American specifications call for motorcycle barrier protection at this time. However draft European specifications are leading the way for change and in the near future those specifications may be ratified.

At this time vehicle barriers are designed for sedan impacts at 100kph-110kph and motorcycle barriers for a test speed of 60kph. These recent impacts at speeds of 150kph-200kph and higher are clearly not in the design parameters of either type of barrier. It is often cited in motorcycle literature that the smooth concrete surface provides a motorcycle friendly barrier yet research shows little chance of a motorcyclist surviving impacts at angles greater than 20 degrees even at "normal" speeds.

There are now several motorcycle barrier systems developed in Europe that have been tested to meet motorcyclist sliding test impacts. There is some use of the systems in a couple of European countries and in Victoria in Australia (on a trial basis). However other road authorities want to have test results on "crash barriers fitted with the bike barriers" to ensure that the presence of bike barriers does not cause small sedan vehicles (in particular) to launch up and over the crash barriers. There is also the question of debris from some motorcycle barrier systems causing secondary accidents after a car or truck has damaged the motorcycle barrier.

Clearly the trend in the western world is towards development of motorcyclist barrier protection. The rate of attention to this issue has increased markedly in recent years, as both more products and more draft specifications appear. However the Bavarian experience should not be overlooked. A few years ago the Bavarian authorities installed post protection on guardrail fences on a winding mountain road in that scenic alpine region to protect motorcyclists. However the road speed of motorcyclists increased on that road and the accident rate did not decrease. The Authorities removed the post protectors. Once again the problem was rider behaviour.

Today, so many countries use wire rope barriers for one good reason, particularly where safety is of paramount importance (in countries such as Sweden), and that is because wire rope barriers are stunningly effective for reducing road crash fatalities and serious injuries. There appears to be an 80 to 90% reduction in road fatalities and serious injuries where ever these systems are installed. Indeed in Sweden it has been noted that motorcycle fatalities have dropped significantly on Swedish 2+1 roads where wire-rope systems have been installed because it prevents cross-over median crashes and helps control excessive speeding.
Worldwide there appears to be very few motorcycle crashes into wire-rope barriers. Where a motorcyclist has impacted a wire-rope barrier, it appears speed was a major causal factor leading up to the crash. However little is known about the circumstances that lead up to a rider loosing control and striking a roadside barrier i.e. speeding, fatigue, alcohol, inexperience, other vehicles, etc. One statistic that can be quoted is the growing number of motorcycle accidents (of all types) in the plus 35 age group due primarily to the growing number of motorcyclist in that age group, many riding a bike for the first time.
Let me add that as an indication of the growing importance of this topic, when we attended the TRB (Transport Research Board) Summer meeting in Rapid City South Dakota last July and one of the four breakout sessions was just devoted to motorcycle issues. Just this morning I received the agenda for the follow up meeting on Monday 14 January 2008 at the TRB Winter session in Washington DC.

Focus Topic Presentations
1. Motorcycle Safety and Longitudinal Barriers-Introduction.
2. The US Experience with Motorcycle Crashes.
3. NCAC Motorcycle Crashes & Road Features Study.
4. Motorcycle Crash Data Collection Project @ OSU.
5. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A USA Update.
6. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A Scandinavian Update.
7. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A United Kingdom Update.
8. Motorcycles and the Roadside. An Italian Update.
9. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A Spanish Update.
10. Motorcycles and the Roadside. A French Update.
11. New York Barrier Crashes Involving Motorcycles
12. Concepts from Italy to make the Roadside Safer for Motorcyclists.
13. Concepts from France to make the Roadside Safer for Motorcyclists.
14. Concepts from Spain to make the Roadside Safer for Motorcyclists.

Research money it starting to flow to enable academics to isolate the real issues in motorcycle crashes and then to develop strategies.
I hope that these comments broaden your perspective on a very important topic. A topic now of greater prominence and growing importance.
I hope that you take these comments and follow up on the research material available in rapidly increasing volume on the web, and also read Coroners Reports to get the correct details and not rely on the selective "colour" that the popular media uses for their story line.
With respect to your final question "Has BRIFEN conducted crash testing concerning motorcycles on these barriers?" I can say that Hill & Smith UK (the owners of Brifen patent) has not been tested any existing motorcycle barrier on Brifen fences. Some barriers are considered (by Hill & Smith UK) to be of poor design that would either result in a vehicle ramping up and over the crash barrier or that would leave debris after an impact and thereby may cause secondary accidents. However I am at liberty to advise that a product is being developed by Hill & Smith that will be fully tested (motorcycles and sedans) in coming months and hopefully will be available in 2009 if all goes well. However that product will be tested in accordance with exist crash standards and the product will not be tested for motorcyclists traveling at excessive speeds.
All I ask of you is not to quote any part of this full and lengthy reply out-of-context.If you are quoting this reply to a private letter, please use the entire script.

Regards

Paul Hansen
Brifen Australia
LB International Pty Ltd
Ph: +61 2 9631 8833
Fax: +61 2 9688 4503
Website: http://www.brifen.com.au (http://www.brifen.com.au/)

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[Ocean1]

Interesting.

He obviously recognises and accepts a need for barriers to prevent car drivers dying.

But if motorcyclists hit his barriers it's a behavioral issue.

So it's all our fault. Again.

[riffer]

One could see it that way.

Another way of seeing it is that car drivers are incompetent morons who need to be protected from themselves and others.

And motorcyclists are hyperintelligent overachievers constantly seeking new boundaries.

[scumdog]

Interesting.

He obviously recognises and accepts a need for barriers to prevent car drivers dying.



And to prevent loser car drivers from crossing the centre-line into the path of motorcyclists.

[Katman]

Interesting.

He obviously recognises and accepts a need for barriers to prevent car drivers dying.

But if motorcyclists hit his barriers it's a behavioral issue.

So it's all our fault. Again.

As was said, without the excessive speed the outcome could very well have been completely different.

[Ocean1]

One could see it that way.

Wasn't me seeing it, I was commenting on his outrageously biased defence of de fence.

Now seems obvious where Nick get’s his facts from.

[Ocean1]

As was said, without the excessive speed the outcome could very well have been completely different.

But it wasn't said of car drivers, was it? Just bike riders.

The whole diatribe reeks of prejudicial spin. I could almost think you wrote it.

[Katman]

But it wasn't said of car drivers, was it? Just bike riders.


Maybe none of the car drivers were doing 200kph.

[Ocean1]

Maybe none of the car drivers were doing 200kph.

Yeah. Pure as driven snow, yer non biker, eh?

Jerk.

[Katman]

Yeah. Pure as driven snow, yer non biker, eh?

Jerk.

Just putting it out there.

Twat.

[riffer]

You two should get a room.

[DEATH_INC.]

http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/mar/14/high-speed-motorcycle-crash-into-concrete-barrier/

http://www.seattlecaraccidentlawyerblog.com/2011/04/seattle_motorcycle_accident_ki.html

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1994-10-15/news/9410150108_1_motorcyclist-concrete-barrier-crash

http://gonebutnotforgotten.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/rte-97-crash-kills-motorcyclist/

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2010-02-21/news/os-turnpike-crash-kills-kissimmee-motorcy20100221_1_motorcycle-crash-osceola-candidate-crash-in-orange-county

http://www.4injured-losangeles.com/i-405-motorcycle-accident-kills-2/

http://www.newsday.co.tt/crime_and_court/0,145910.html

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2011/06/motorcycle_carrying_two_men_crashes_exiting_off_of _interstate_5.html

http://www.plg-pllc.com/washington-personal-injury/seattle-motorcycle-accident-leaves-one-dead-one-injured-bellevue-injury-attorney/

http://www.injuryinsider.com/2011/04/25/one-killed-child-injured-in-motorcycle-crash-near-safeco/

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-21/news/os-fatal-crash-orange-avenue-20110121_1_casselberry-man-motorcycle-crash-concrete-barrier
All very interesting, but how many would have survived the same collision with a wrb?


For the sake of balanced content, here is some evidence of WRBs contributing to motorcyclist deaths:

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIA...DER/41596.html

http://www.mravic.org.au/forum/modul...p?storyid=1017

It's a lot harder to find them.

And of course, would these guys have survived if there was something else there? As for the being a lot harder to find, I suspect that is answered by your other post, where they basically say they scare the shit out of us, so we are more careful around them. I guess if that's what we want, then they are onto a winner.
Personally, I'd much rather ENJOY riding.

[Maha]

....I like Massdam:corn:

[riffer]

I suspect that is answered by your other post, where they basically say they scare the shit out of us, so we are more careful around them. I guess if that's what we want, then they are onto a winner.
Personally, I'd much rather ENJOY riding.

Undoubtedly we'll all rather ENJOY riding. And I suspect your speculation that the fear factor is a great persuader is right on the button there.

How many of us will push a little bit hard whenever we see that there's a cheesecutter "protecting" us from other road users?

Didn't think so.

[Fatt Max]

Did you do anything Doug? Write to someone? MP? Local paper?

See, everybody wants someone else to take the lead, and do something about it, when it should be that if an issue upsets you, you should be the one to do something about it.

Got it in one mate.....but as so many people within the 'protest' movement told me, "What the fuck do I know".....

But moving forward, if we could only unite as a biker community and get in behind all these issues en masse, then you never know what could happen. My attempt to do that failed and I believe it was simply the fact that I was not well known or respected enough, and thats fine.

It just saddened me whan people who DID have the balls to stand up and be counted got knocked back time and time again. We are only human and you can only take so much I suppose.

I believe MAG are lobbying this, not sure about BRONZ, but rather than write them off, get involved......but then, (____see statement in red____)