Retro-fitted double glazing?

[slofox]

Anybody availed themselves of retro-fitted double glazing? How good is it? Any pitfalls etc?

Some outfit called energy saving centre dropped a flyer in my mailbox t'other day offering this service. I'm tempted to have a looksee...maybe get a quote. But I'd like to know how good the retro-fitting bit is...

Thanks people.

[The Lone Rider]

I don't know how good it is, but I've been told double glazing is a very broad term and there are many variations on what you get for "double glazing".

Some are just two glass panels. Some are two panels pressurized in the middle. Others I believe have some sort of nitrogen mix pumped between the panes and sealed.

No idea which is more effective for retaining heat, but I'm pretty sure the nitro version is the most expensive.

[bogan]

Cheapest one is to sellotape glad wrap on the inside, leaving a bit of an air pocket. My energy consious flatmate did it so he could keep his space age foam matress hot enough to work, with an electric heater :facepalm:

He got some proper stuff recently which shrinks flat with a blow dryer, not too sure if the thin platic is able to stop heat transfer, but it stops air movement.

Dirt cheap, so I give it a big thumbs meh :mellow:

[oneofsix]

I don't know how good it is, but I've been told double glazing is a very broad term and there are many variations on what you get for "double glazing".

Some are just two glass panels. Some are two panels pressurized in the middle. Others I believe have some sort of nitrogen mix pumped between the panes and sealed.

No idea which is more effective for retaining heat, but I'm pretty sure the nitro version is the most expensive.

does anyone do a vacuum version as I would have thought this would be the most affective, probably the most expensive as well :shutup:

[imdying]

My parents added them to their home, the argon filled version IIRC. They're got DVS, solar water heating, heat pumps, flat panel heaters, done the insulation top and bottom, etc etc, and my mother swears that out of all that crap, the retrofitted double glazing is the only one she wishes she'd done years ago.

[slofox]

I checked the website of the guys who did the leaflet drop. They use an outer layer of UVPC - optical grade acrylic, fitted to a frame that goes on the outside of the existing window frame. I don't think they do anything about the gas between the layers. Still sounds expensive...

EDIT: Got a free quote, info session next week. We'll see...

[Vgygrwr]

So anything that provides a gap of still air works. In theory a gap between 15mm and 20mm is best. If you use low emission glass (reflects heat back in) its better and if you use a heavier than air gas (argon) its better. A vaccum maybe best but never seen offered. We built with the cheapest before knowing anything about it. Only has a 6mm gap still makes enormous difference to heat loss, condensation and noise, even works a treat stopping the odd stone from the mower. Not sure how the plastic stuff goes with window cleaning.

[slofox]

Not sure how the plastic stuff goes with window cleaning.

Window cleaning..? What's that?

[Wannabiker]

My son worked as an installer for Magnetite for some time. This is the system that uses UPVC (optical perspex) cut to the size of the window, and secured using a magnetic strip. The magnetic strip is in the edging that is fitted to the panel. A thin metal band / strap is attached to the inside of window frame using double sided adhesive, and the panel attached. It does work very well. It also has the advantage that it insulated the frame on aluminium frame joinery.

They also used varying thickness of panel (Up to 10mm), as it is a very good noise insulator. He did many central Wellington apartments, and many homes along busy roads and the result was very good.

The Glass-argon gas- glass double glazing requires re-gassing every so often, so there is an on-going upkeep cost.

Unfortunately, the Magnetite distributor / agent in the Wellington region went bust. (Not due to the product) and my son no longer works in that industry.

I believe 3M do a plastic sheet product that you can install yourself. It will work at reducing condensation, but that will be about all.

[Wannabiker]

PS.. some of the retro-fit double glazing qualifies for the govt energy efficiency scheme I believe (if it is still going)

[Swoop]

Window cleaning..? What's that?
Commonly referred to as "rain".

For a power wash apply "rain" with "wind"!!



*Low payment plans available, free set of ginzu knives available for first three customers each year. All products are environmentally friendly. Products have been tested on animals.

[slofox]

Commonly referred to as "rain".

For a power wash apply "rain" with "wind"!!



Oh. Right. I do THAT...

[Ocean1]

A vaccum So maybe best but never seen offered.

That's because the glass would break from the 1 Bar pressure on both sides. Unless it was maybe 20mm toughened...

[slofox]

My son worked as an installer for Magnetite for some time. This is the system that uses UPVC (optical perspex) cut to the size of the window, and secured using a magnetic strip. The magnetic strip is in the edging that is fitted to the panel. A thin metal band / strap is attached to the inside of window frame using double sided adhesive, and the panel attached. It does work very well. It also has the advantage that it insulated the frame on aluminium frame joinery.

They also used varying thickness of panel (Up to 10mm), as it is a very good noise insulator. He did many central Wellington apartments, and many homes along busy roads and the result was very good.

The Glass-argon gas- glass double glazing requires re-gassing every so often, so there is an on-going upkeep cost.

Unfortunately, the Magnetite distributor / agent in the Wellington region went bust. (Not due to the product) and my son no longer works in that industry.

I believe 3M do a plastic sheet product that you can install yourself. It will work at reducing condensation, but that will be about all.


PS.. some of the retro-fit double glazing qualifies for the govt energy efficiency scheme I believe (if it is still going)

Sounds exactly like what I am looking at.

I already got a gummint subsidy to fit a heat pump - couldn't insulate because of flat roof but you get it anyway...

[Flip]

243567

We have stuff like this fitted at work. Seems to work fine, my office is always toasty and warm.

[oldrider]

Sounds exactly like what I am looking at.

I already got a gummint subsidy to fit a heat pump - couldn't insulate because of flat roof but you get it anyway...

Our window glass is very thin (old gov't department house) so we had some of our windows done, expensive but it does work well!

Subsidies, never get any of those out here! Winston's card is a dead loss down here too!

[JimO]

Our window glass is very thin (old gov't department house) so we had some of our windows done, expensive but it does work well!

Subsidies, never get any of those out here! Winston's card is a dead loss down here too!

you can use it on the buss eh :yes:

[specter]

i used to be a glazier and double glazing is the shit!

find out what glass mix they are using? my preferred best is laminate and safety. have no idea about this nitrogen mix and shit? even a basic air inter layer will make a huge difference.

[JimO]

my wifes x boss had their large house double glazed in the mid 90s including a big conservatory, now all the windows have gone milky and need replaced , the firm who made the windows called Nebulite have gone, its going to cost them around 20k to replace them

[imdying]

Go round to their place and smash them for them. Insurance job then. Don't tell them for a few years, be like a late Christmas present.

[JimO]

Go round to their place and smash them for them. Insurance job then. Don't tell them for a few years, be like a late Christmas present.

na they are cunts

[Wannabiker]

na they are cunts

...just smash them anyway....

[Kickaha]

My father had this fitted and said it made a huge difference to his place

A glazier friend of mine is very uncomplimentary about it and threatened physical violence if I fitted it at my place:girlfight: more to do with longevity and discolouration of the product

[Ocean1]

My father had this fitted and said it made a huge difference to his place

A glazier friend of mine is very uncomplimentary about it and threatened physical violence if I fitted it at my place:girlfight: more to do with longevity and discolouration of the product

Quality. Again. The most common type consists of two pieces of glass stuck either side of a frame made from an alloy extrusion. The extrusion has very fine slots / holes on the inwward facing side and it's filled with a dessicant, (sucks up moisture).

The glass is around 5mm larger than the outside dimensions of the extrusion and once the glasee is stuck in place the gap between the glass is filled with a sealant, (buytl based, usually).

Your father's right, as an insulating system it works OK. Your glazier mate's right too. Most common problem is the sealant not forming a perfect gas-tight seal. Air breaths in / out as temperature changes and eventually the dessicant becomes saturated and condensation forms inside the cavity.

20K sounds about 10x the cost I'd expect to replace a failed batch of glass. Unless some bright spark has designed a frame you can't remove the glass from...

[Winston001]

Here's what flyingcrocodile46 had to say on another thread which I blinged him for:


"Timber and UPVC window frames provide superior thermal resistance, (though be sure to research your UPVC options very carefully). however the component that most needs to achieve an insulation value (R Value) is the glass rather than the frame as the frame is a very small area compared to the window.

Appraised double glazed window panels can be retro fitted to most existing windows including timber. There may or may not be any NZ timber joinery manufacturers who have a formally tested whole joinery system (don't know) but it isn't needed.

Here's one company making a nice business out of catering to everyone's irrational lust to have double glazing.
http://www.aucklanddoubleglazing.co.nz/

To give an idea as to the significance of double glazing insulation values as opposed to single glazing, here are the NZBC H1 Acceptable Solution R values for Non-solid construction – minimum R-values for schedule method (Climate Zone 1);
Single Glazed = Min R . 19
Double Glazed = Min R . 26
Roofs/ceilings are =>R 2.9
Walls are =>R 1.9
Floor are =>R 1.3
As you can see, the difference between single and double glazing is only R .07 (2% of the value of roof insulation) So it's all a big deal over fuck all :whocares: For my money thermal drapes meet my needs fine but that is too easy.

I know TA's are famous for causing problems for designers in respect to acceptance of detailing on matters of compliance but as far as I am aware, most of the reputation isn't justified and is more likely a symptom of insufficiently detailed compliance with the NZBC by people who often don't have a clue about what the requirements actually are. Of course this can be exasperated by individuals at TA's who also don't know up from down.


If anyone needs more info on the issue here are a couple of helpful sites
http://www.branz.co.nz/H1_support
http://www.consumer.org.nz/news/view/insulated-frames-for-double-glazing"

[JimO]

20K sounds about 10x the cost I'd expect to replace a failed batch of glass. Unless some bright spark has designed a frame you can't remove the glass from...

this is a massive 2 storey house with a very large conservatory with glass in the roof so you think 2k would cover that?? including the conservatory there would be over 40 panels

[Ocean1]

this is a massive 2 storey house with a very large conservatory with glass in the roof so you think 2k would cover that?? including the conservatory there would be over 40 panels

Easy enough to find out, go directly to Metroglass or Veridian.

One of the peculiarities of the business in NZ is the sizes available, you can have whatever you want, and pretty quickly too. If you need a window 1234mm x 567mm it's made to order. That means every piece is a different job, and that forces jobing shop economics.

Overseas your options are limited to a range of pre-made nominal sized complete units. Much less expensive to run a couple of hundred at a time. You can still get a custom size window, say 1185 x 775, but it'll cost five times the price of an off-the-shelf 1150 x 800.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Here's what flyingcrocodile46 had to say
As you can see, the difference between single and double glazing is only R .07 (2% of the value of roof insulation) So it's all a big deal over fuck all :whocares: For my money thermal drapes meet my needs fine but that is too easy.

I rather feared that would come back and bite me in the arse.:shutup:

In some ways what I said was/is true, but in most real world applications it actually isn't. For instance, fitting double glazing wont make any meaningful difference if you have fuck all or no wall or roof insulation, but when all your walls, floors and roof are well insulated you will still lose a big chunk of heat through your windows, so double glazing makes a worthwhile difference .. though perspective-wise questionable on a cost benefit basis as a mandatory requirement when considering that our building costs are already all but unfordable.

I guess I have a bit of an issue with mandatory minimum requirements driving up the cost of building to a point where it is unfordable for the majority of kiwis. I think it is silly that you can't factor thermal drapes into the Schedule or calculation methods to satisfy H1 requirements (because they aren't fixed closed):facepalm:

Fact is that any form of sealed second skin that stops air from passing from one layer to the other will provide a measurably worthwhile heat loss reduction due to the fact that still air is a lousy thermal (heat loss) conductor.

What has been said in the thread (particularly by Ocean1) is all good info. Don't want to tarnish it with my anti H1/$ bias.:innocent:

[ducatilover]

I thought you'd just use a blanket like a real old fulla slowfox?

[Winston001]

I rather feared that would come back and bite me in the arse.:shutup:

In some ways what I said was/is true, but in most real world applications .... double glazing makes a worthwhile difference ..

LOL. The main thing is you provided sensible information on R values. I'm a believer in double glazing but realistic enough to know it has low R. The soundproofing is a bonus and it has a cooling effect in summer.

My research and reading on the subject over years suggests retro glazing is worthwhile as long as there is a sufficient air gap. Low-e glass, argon, thermal breaks are all nice to have extras but I'm not convinced they have a cost/benefit.

Retro glazing is less expensive than new windows because the existing frames are left in place and new windows swopped in. They need to be stronger than the originals because of the extra weight and depth.

Apart from that, a second layer of batts in the ceiling is a good idea because our house insulation is generally less than ideal.

[imdying]

For instance, fitting double glazing wont make any meaningful difference if you have fuck all or no wall or roof insulation, but when all your walls, floors and roof are well insulated you will still lose a big chunk of heat through your windows, so double glazing makes a worthwhile differenceSounds sensible, anyone else have an opinion?

[Maki]

Just had the house done with argon filled low e glass and it's like night and day. Feels like summer is already here.

[Swoop]

Just had the house done with argon filled low e glass and it's like night and day. Feels like summer is already here.
How's the noise reduction?

[Maki]

How's the noise reduction?

It does make a difference in terms of noise. There is little traffic noise where I live but wind noise can sometimes be an issue and this has clearly been reduced.

[SMOKEU]

Maori it up with some bubble wrap.

[F5 Dave]

Taking this waaay off in a tangent, I've heard that the drill a hole in your exterior wall & pump in expanding foam crowd have a bit to answer for.
supposedly:
1. it is like gorilla glue & future suckers trying to take the gib off will be in for a nasty surprise
2. it encases wiring in foam so good luck changing any of that & supposedly overseas they are concern on its affect upon wiring.
3. Most woods when you drill a hole in them keep producing sap so the bung of bog you put in the hole will keep cracking the paint.

I had wondered about that stick on window stuff someone was offering & how long it would last without discolouring. We had some safety cover put on some glass doors (Toddlers with blocks SMASH SMASH SMASH - Hey Dad, this is FUN) & I was surprised that 3 years on it is still invisible. . .but it isn't in direct sunlight for hours every day.

[Kickaha]

I had wondered about that stick on window stuff someone was offering & how long it would last without discolouring. We had some safety cover put on some glass doors (Toddlers with blocks SMASH SMASH SMASH - Hey Dad, this is FUN) & I was surprised that 3 years on it is still invisible. . .but it isn't in direct sunlight for hours every day.

My father fitted it and said it made a huge difference in heat retention, but for not much more he could have had the real thing, glazier friend reckoned 5-7 years it will discolour and he'd bash me if I even considered fitting it

[F5 Dave]

yeah thanks, I had understood that from your first post & its useful information.


The stuff on my internal glass doors is for a different purpose (stopping the stuff smashing) & I was expecting it to be manky by now & peel it off once the kids got old enough not to bash the glass. So far its fit for purpose & I might never have to. But again, its internal.

[Maki]

Taking this waaay off in a tangent, I've heard that the drill a hole in your exterior wall & pump in expanding foam crowd have a bit to answer for.
supposedly:
1. it is like gorilla glue & future suckers trying to take the gib off will be in for a nasty surprise
2. it encases wiring in foam so good luck changing any of that & supposedly overseas they are concern on its affect upon wiring.
3. Most woods when you drill a hole in them keep producing sap so the bung of bog you put in the hole will keep cracking the paint.

I had wondered about that stick on window stuff someone was offering & how long it would last without discolouring. We had some safety cover put on some glass doors (Toddlers with blocks SMASH SMASH SMASH - Hey Dad, this is FUN) & I was surprised that 3 years on it is still invisible. . .but it isn't in direct sunlight for hours every day.

Is it just me or does anyone else think New Zealand is below par when it comes to building houses? For some reason wrong materials, insufficient materials and poor planning/implementation are the rule rather than the exception. Is everyone so intent on building cheap houses as fast as possible that they can't be bothered to do the job properly?

And don't get me started on the so called "leaky buildings". If ever there was a misnomer that is it. (Does anyone think that moisture on the inside of windows on a cold morning got there because the windows leaked?) They would more correctly be called rotten wood buildings. The problem is generally not water leaking in from the outside, it is condensation forming in places where it is not wanted. The kind of condensation that will rot untreated timber. Making the house more watertight could actually make that particular problem worse rather than better because the moisture inside the walls, on the wooden frame will have less of a chance of drying.

[skippa1]

Is it just me or does anyone else think New Zealand is below par when it comes to building houses? For some reason wrong materials, insufficient materials and poor planning/implementation are the rule rather than the exception. Is everyone so intent on building cheap houses as fast as possible that they can't be bothered to do the job properly?

And don't get me started on the so called "leaky buildings". If ever there was a misnomer that is it. (Does anyone think that moisture on the inside of windows on a cold morning got there because the windows leaked?) They would more correctly be called rotten wood buildings. The problem is generally not water leaking in from the outside, it is condensation forming in places where it is not wanted. The kind of condensation that will rot untreated timber. Making the house more watertight could actually make that particular problem worse rather than better because the moisture inside the walls, on the wooden frame will have less of a chance of drying.

with you 100%.
The margins seem to be so low that the jobs get rushed through at the moment here in NZ. I am getting a 1860sqm building built at present and it all seems to be about getting a signiture on an agreement and a deposit. Once thats done the whole thing starts to drag out forever and its not about quality. The builder employs subbies and then when things go wrong the finger pointing starts. Do it once, do it right.

[5150]

The Glass-argon gas- glass double glazing requires re-gassing every so often, so there is an on-going upkeep cost.



What a load of shit.... Argon Filled IGU's are made in an Argon controlled room. If Argon has escaped the whole unit would need to be replaced. Modern technology allowes the Argon gas to be sealed in the unit for good. So they can not be regassed.

[puddytat]

couldnt be bothered reading the lot, but if you use anything other than a proper sealed unit you will still get condensation appearing & mold growing ..... A sealed unit doesnt.
Dont use a perspex type plasitic as it breaks down & becomes discoloured & brittle. Polycarbonate is the bizzo if you use a plastic but its hellishly expensive, more so than a new sealed unit.
Wooden frames can have the rebate routed to accept a modern sealed unit. Normally an aluminium framed window can have the existing beading cut down or a new one can be obtained if needed.

[5150]

couldnt be bothered reading the lot, but if you use anything other than a proper sealed unit you will still get condensation appearing & mold growing ..... A sealed unit doesnt.
Dont use a perspex type plasitic as it breaks down & becomes discoloured & brittle. Polycarbonate is the bizzo if you use a plastic but its hellishly expensive, more so than a new sealed unit.
Wooden frames can have the rebate routed to accept a modern sealed unit. Normally an aluminium framed window can have the existing beading cut down or a new one can be obtained if needed.

+1 - What ^ said ........

[Clockwork]

.... Is everyone so intent on building cheap houses as fast as possible that they can't be bothered to do the job properly?


So far as I can determine, new houses in NZ are built neither cheaply nor quickly.

[Maki]

So far as I can determine, new houses in NZ are built neither cheaply nor quickly.

Sounds good, and sounds like a big improvement. Just hope they are built to be comfortable and long lasting. That would be a big step up from the moldy, freezing, drafty and poorly built housing most people have to put up with.

Since the government is paying for the health system subsidizing good housing makes perfect sense.

[flyingcrocodile46]

So far as I can determine, new houses in NZ are built neither cheaply nor quickly.

Tis true. Gone are the days of the old Beazly, Neil, Sunset etc homes that were actually pretty cheap. Peoples wants have turned to needs in the kitchens, ensuites, wardrobes, family rooms, studys, and internal garages of thier homes, resulting in a near doubling of size of the average home. Along with more expensive flooring fixtures and fittings tastes (wardrobe organisers, more lights and power points, granite bench tops, more complex cabinetry & $5000 faucets etc) that seem to have become the norm.... small wonder they cost a lot.

Another factor is the price of land. With 400M2 sections (which are generally not flat and cheap to build on) going for $200-400K it doesn't make sense to put a 100M2 (true low spec) $90K shoe box on it.

[flyingcrocodile46]

As far as the glazing goes. What is cost effective and what isn't depends on the options available to you. Those options and degree of likely success are dictated by the the type of joinery you have to start with. For most it is likely best to replace the windows in their entirety to achieve a worthwhile result.

To my knowledge, none of the varied options discussed so far will achieve better than 100% value for money :facepalm: and many will net a lot less.

If considering one of the currently marketed solutions I would want to see a house done and talk to its owners (after a winter) to best determine likely performance. I would not accept claims made by the suppliers.

[Maki]

The thing to keep in mind is that the reality is that single glazing does not cut it for most New Zealand locations, unless you accept an uncomfortably low inside temperature. Once the temperature starts to slide towards freezing the only way to keep a house with large single glazed windows warm is to use vast amounts of energy to heat it. You could easily be losing around 150W of energy per square metre of single glazed glass.

Our neighbors have a HRT ventilation system and the condensation inside their windows on cold morning is nevertheless massive while we have next to none and no ventilation system. It was interesting to note that sometimes a thin film of condensation forms on the OUTSIDE of our windows. That means the outside is quite cold and it also means the windows insulate very well since the temperature inside our house is usually around 15C on cold nights. We don't have any heaters turned on at night.

[mashman]

couldnt be bothered reading the lot, but if you use anything other than a proper sealed unit you will still get condensation appearing & mold growing ..... A sealed unit doesnt.
Dont use a perspex type plasitic as it breaks down & becomes discoloured & brittle. Polycarbonate is the bizzo if you use a plastic but its hellishly expensive, more so than a new sealed unit.
Wooden frames can have the rebate routed to accept a modern sealed unit. Normally an aluminium framed window can have the existing beading cut down or a new one can be obtained if needed.

+2 What ^ said...

We've built 2 houses since we've been here. The first brick. Condensation all over the place. The second, particle board. Condensation all over the place. What do they have in common, shitty unthermally broken aluminium windows. We used to live in Scotland and very very rarely had condensation. PVC is this shizzle in comparison. We hope to build a third at some point. The next one is going to be as passive as possible and sealed as air tight as possible. The fit of the windows and doors make all of the difference from what we've found. Even those who have thermal broken windows get condensation and from what I've seen it's because of those stupid condensation run off holes. Anything that's let's cold air in close to the glass is gonna allow for condensation.

[Ocean1]

The next one is going to be as passive as possible and sealed as air tight as possible.

If you thought you had condensation problems with the first two the next one's going to be a ripper.

[Maki]

Condensation depends on two things. (Which themselves depend on a number of other things but let's try to keep it simple.)

1. The dew point of the air inside the house. (In a bathroom this can easily be around 18 degrees if someone is taking a bath or a shower. In that case condensation will form on any surface colder than 18 degrees. Normally the dew point would be a lot lower. Cooking, people in the house, washing dishes will all increase the moisture inside the house and thus raise the dew point. If you have no means of reducing the moisture like ventilation or a dehumidifier it will take very little before you have condensation all over the place...)

2. The temperature of surfaces inside the house. (Dew will settle on surfaces colder than the dew point. This is the reason for dew on a cold glass).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So to get rid of condensation you must address 1 and 2.

1. can be addressed with ventilation and some means of removing moisture from the air inside the house. (This is the reason condensation is normally less in houses that have HRT or DVS systems. You could debate the logic of sucking air through the soffits into the roof cavity and thence through filters before arriving inside the house vs having some windows open from time to time but that is another discussion. (Good ventilation of bathrooms and kitchens is especially important.))

2. Insulation and heating to help surfaces inside the house stay above the dew point. The more insulation you have the less heating you need to achieve this.

[mashman]

If you thought you had condensation problems with the first two the next one's going to be a ripper.

I guess we'll see.

[steve_t]

So that MagicSeal stuff's not the goods then?

[Maki]

So that MagicSeal stuff's not the goods then?

It is better than nothing.

[puddytat]

Biggest differance you'll notice with double glazing is how much condensation youll have on your window.....none.
Damp means mould.....dy

[mashman]

Biggest differance you'll notice with double glazing is how much condensation youll have on your window.....none.
Damp means mould.....dy

That's what we always thought and were told... but not quite true. The brand spankin new houses we've built so far have both had double glazing. The condensation starts on the aluminium, then by morning the windows are all but dripping with condensation... that's on pretty much every window in the house.

[Maki]

That's what we always thought and were told... but not quite true. The brand spankin new houses we've built so far have both had double glazing. The condensation starts on the aluminium, then by morning the windows are all but dripping with condensation... that's on pretty much every window in the house.

The houses need some ventilation...

[flyingcrocodile46]

The houses need some ventilation...

Yes, to replace the moisture vapour saturated air (from breathing, cooking, showering etc) before it starts dropping moisture all over the place when the temperature drops in the evenings. It's not just the visible condensation that is a problem. Moisture vapour diffuses into everything (furnishings, gib, insulation and timber) as it moves through walls, floors and ceilings toward the colder face of the external cladding.

For my money proper heat pumps (with dehumidifiers) and a small amount of natural ventilation, is a healthier alternative to the HRV type systems which are (sometimes) proving to be making things a lot worse (completely destroyed ceilings) and frequently make no difference to temperature or moisture vapour (because the nonces don't understand what they are doing when installing them). All the HRV type systems are doing is moving existing poor quality air from one part of the house to another to another :facepalm:.

[Maki]

For my money proper heat pumps (with dehumidifiers) and a small amount of natural ventilation, is a healthier alternative to the HRV type systems which are (sometimes) proving to be making things a lot worse (completely destroyed ceilings) and frequently make no difference to temperature or moisture vapour (because the nonces don't understand what they are doing when installing them). All the HRV type systems are doing is moving existing poor quality air from one part of the house to another to another :facepalm:.

+1 Agree totally.

[BMWST?]

a mate has had all the windows(timber) removed form his house(the origanal timber frame remains) and replaced with alumiium thrmal break double glazed windows,He swaers by it,his house is def warmer when i visit.

[mashman]

The houses need some ventilation...

The windows are open just about all day every day in every room.


Yes, to replace the moisture vapour saturated air (from breathing, cooking, showering etc) before it starts dropping moisture all over the place when the temperature drops in the evenings. It's not just the visible condensation that is a problem. Moisture vapour diffuses into everything (furnishings, gib, insulation and timber) as it moves through walls, floors and ceilings toward the colder face of the external cladding.

For my money proper heat pumps (with dehumidifiers) and a small amount of natural ventilation, is a healthier alternative to the HRV type systems which are (sometimes) proving to be making things a lot worse (completely destroyed ceilings) and frequently make no difference to temperature or moisture vapour (because the nonces don't understand what they are doing when installing them). All the HRV type systems are doing is moving existing poor quality air from one part of the house to another to another :facepalm:.

I was told this a while ago, so thought we'd try something different. 2 inch (at least) thick particle board mix with veneer overlay make upm the walls and the ceilings, no jib. The insulation is on the outside walls covered by weatherboard. Showers/bath time, the doors are closed, the extractors are left on and the window left open until the mirror condensation has gone entirely. The dehumidifier, when we run it, pulls next to nothing out of the air. We do not have gas in the house, apart from Mrs Mash (could be the issue). We have enough gaps in the house to ensure airflow, believe me. The windows in the bathrooms are left cracked all night most of the time.

It kinda blows a hole in the theory for me. You guys obviously know better and you're more than welcome to come and see for yourselves.

[steve_t]

That's what we always thought and were told... but not quite true. The brand spankin new houses we've built so far have both had double glazing. The condensation starts on the aluminium, then by morning the windows are all but dripping with condensation... that's on pretty much every window in the house.

Aluminium window frames need to be thermally broken otherwise, what you're describing happens. The aluminium conducts the cold from outside and condensation starts here.

Strange that you have a lot of condensation yet your dehumidifier pulls hardly any moisture out of the air. I'd have to suspect the dehumidifier isn't functioning well.

[mashman]

Aluminium window frames need to be thermally broken otherwise, what you're describing happens. The aluminium conducts the cold from outside and condensation starts here.

Strange that you have a lot of condensation yet your dehumidifier pulls hardly any moisture out of the air. I'd have to suspect the dehumidifier isn't functioning well.

The humidifier worked fine after the house was reclad and the builder knicked a pipe and one of the carpets got a might tad damp (windows open all day maybe?). I think you're bang on in regards to the aluminium window frames. Two sets of double glazing in two houses and as you say, it always starts on the windows frames. I'll be looking at PVC next time... by the looks of things the extra cost will be worth it.

[Maki]

What is the area around your house like, Mash? Is it in a sheltered spot lying low compared to the immediate surroundings? Are there a lot of trees nearby? Do you often get fog/mist at night? It has been raining frequently so the ground is very wet and this raises the humidity. These factors could make your case more difficult than normal. Is it possible that moisture (humid air) is somehow coming up through your floor?

Does your dehumidifier have a display that shows the relative humidity? It does not seem right that it pulls no moisture out of the air and yet you have a major problem with condensation. It sounds like it is not working.

I have looked at houses in sheltered spots with bush surroundings and these have clearly been more prone to problems with damp than most...

[flyingcrocodile46]

The windows are open just about all day every day in every room.



I was told this a while ago, so thought we'd try something different. 2 inch (at least) thick particle board mix with veneer overlay make upm the walls and the ceilings, no jib. The insulation is on the outside walls covered by weatherboard. Showers/bath time, the doors are closed, the extractors are left on and the window left open until the mirror condensation has gone entirely. The dehumidifier, when we run it, pulls next to nothing out of the air. We do not have gas in the house, apart from Mrs Mash (could be the issue). We have enough gaps in the house to ensure airflow, believe me. The windows in the bathrooms are left cracked all night most of the time.

It kinda blows a hole in the theory for me. You guys obviously know better and you're more than welcome to come and see for yourselves.

Does your house get cold quick when not heated? You can very easily over ventilate (a 3 to 5mm gap at the closing edge of each window should be more than enough). Big temperature fluctuations are problematic for moisture vapour control. A constant 18 to 22 degrees is supposedly ideal

[Maki]

The humidifier worked fine after the house was reclad and the builder knicked a pipe and one of the carpets got a might tad damp (windows open all day maybe?). I think you're bang on in regards to the aluminium window frames. Two sets of double glazing in two houses and as you say, it always starts on the windows frames. I'll be looking at PVC next time... by the looks of things the extra cost will be worth it.

knicked pipe... tad damp... Could the pipe or some other pipe still be leaking?

[flyingcrocodile46]

The humidifier worked fine after the house was reclad and the builder knicked a pipe and one of the carpets got a might tad damp (windows open all day maybe?). I think you're bang on in regards to the aluminium window frames. Two sets of double glazing in two houses and as you say, it always starts on the windows frames. I'll be looking at PVC next time... by the looks of things the extra cost will be worth it.

It is true that the frame creates a thermal bridge between outside and inside and that it and the material adjacent to it (incl the glass) will cool and then allow condensation to kick in. Timber has a higher thermal resistance than aluminim and I suspect better than PVC as well. Failure to insulate the small gap around the windows can contribute to this sort of problem as well.

[caseye]

Glad of this thread, have done the under floor and I'd have to say it's pretty much immediate and IT WORKS.
Were getting the Green Stuff, but at last minute they got some new white ones, in they went 1/2 a day 4 guys all done.
On the rates now.
Can't believe how much warmer it is, turned off the heat pump the next day, been off ever since for last three weeks.
Was going to look into double glazing then out of the blue a phone call from this energy place, they're coming to asses and advise next week.
Croc! what I do?

[mashman]

What is the area around your house like, Mash? Is it in a sheltered spot lying low compared to the immediate surroundings? Are there a lot of trees nearby? Do you often get fog/mist at night? It has been raining frequently so the ground is very wet and this raises the humidity. These factors could make your case more difficult than normal. Is it possible that moisture (humid air) is somehow coming up through your floor?

Does your dehumidifier have a display that shows the relative humidity? It does not seem right that it pulls no moisture out of the air and yet you have a major problem with condensation. It sounds like it is not working.

I have looked at houses in sheltered spots with bush surroundings and these have clearly been more prone to problems with damp than most...

We're on a hill in amongst other houses, classic suburbia (concrete jungle), only lower than the house above us, not overly sheltered from the wind, no trees, not often mist or fog but it does happen, the ground is wet but there's no condensation on the windows/panes just now (cold, but no condensation). Dunno about it coming up through the floor. It's slab with polystyrene blocks in it.

It does pull some moisture out, but a lot less than the last place and was working fine about chrimbo when we had the mini flood.

[mashman]

knicked pipe... tad damp... Could the pipe or some other pipe still be leaking?

nah, we got that sorted and had professional carpet cleaners and industrial sized everything to clean and sort that issue out.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Glad of this thread, have done the under floor and I'd have to say it's pretty much immediate and IT WORKS.
Were getting the Green Stuff, but at last minute they got some new white ones, in they went 1/2 a day 4 guys all done.
On the rates now.
Can't believe how much warmer it is, turned off the heat pump the next day, been off ever since for last three weeks.
Was going to look into double glazing then out of the blue a phone call from this energy place, they're coming to asses and advise next week.
Croc! what I do?

Take advantage Caseye. Give us a call tomorrow... or maybe a coffee run in the earlyish am

[flyingcrocodile46]

nah, we got that sorted and had professional carpet cleaners and industrial sized everything to clean and sort that issue out.

Wouldn't it be easier to install a toilet?

[mashman]

It is true that the frame creates a thermal bridge between outside and inside and that it and the material adjacent to it (incl the glass) will cool and then allow condensation to kick in. Timber has a higher thermal resistance than aluminim and I suspect better than PVC as well. Failure to insulate the small gap around the windows can contribute to this sort of problem as well.

I had a look at the thermal break stuff 2 or 3 years ago and it looked quite smart, but not perfect said the sales guy (I know, an honest sales guy)... We had wood in my dads old stoned house, single glazed, and it was condensationy... but that was in the middle of a valley in bumfuck nowhere. After that any other houses I've lived in had PVC windees and they were bloody good. the only time we really had condensation was when we were drying the washing on the radiator and the curtains were closed... even in the hard minuses of winter. Ideally I'd like to throw in a rayburn and radiator system with PVC windows, amongst other things, in the next place... although tis highly unlikely we'll be allowed to use real fire, so will probably ditch the rayburn and just implement the rest. The windows were a tight fit and were lagged, but I dunno how well tbh.

Aaaaaaand, we rarely have the heat pump on, so it ain't exactly a cold house

[mashman]

Wouldn't it be easier to install a toilet?

I'm on the super absorbent pads atm... toilet is the next step :eek:

[caseye]

Libra?????

"Take advantage Caseye. Give us a call tomorrow... or maybe a coffee run in the earlyish am"
Still no riding for me mate, Love to but can't yet.
I will call though, got yer number, cheers mate.

[mashman]

Libra?????

I am yes...

[flyingcrocodile46]

I'm on the super absorbent pads atm... toilet is the next step :eek:

Sounds like you need to monitor the temperature and humidity in all of the rooms of your house for a few weeks to try to identify what is going on. Get yourself a dozen cheap weather stations

[mashman]

Sounds like you need to monitor the temperature and humidity in all of the rooms of your house for a few weeks to try to identify what is going on. Get yourself a dozen cheap weather stations

I did that in the last place with thermometers and there was one room that didn't retain much in the way of heat. Probably the only room that never got any sun... enough of an issue that we had a guy in with a thermal camera to give the place the once over. Nothing showed up... praps it's time to do it again with sommet that deals with humidity too. Pretty sure it's the windows though.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I did that in the last place with thermometers and there was one room that didn't retain much in the way of heat. Probably the only room that never got any sun... enough of an issue that we had a guy in with a thermal camera to give the place the once over. Nothing showed up... praps it's time to do it again with sommet that deals with humidity too. Pretty sure it's the windows though.

The windows will collect (or show) the condensation and may be contributing by way of being poorly insulated (via thermal bridging of the frames) but they do not cause the elevated moisture vapour content that is the primary problem. So, you have two problems. 1. poorly functioning/quality double glazed windows (it does happen) and 2. an excess of and/or poor management of moisture vapour.

Is your house single level, split level, or two story? What sort of roof construction is it? Do you shut the windows when you go to bed at night? which rooms/windows show the most and least amount of condensation? Is the veneer strandboard on th einside faces of all the exterior walls? What sort of ceiling lining do you have? What sort of sealer/paint/polyurethane was used on the veneer (does it breathe and allow moisture vapour to pass through?), What sort of wall wrap was used? The permeability of walls and cladding plays a really big part in moisture vapour control. You should replace your dehumidifier with one that is known to work well and leave it overnight in each room (one at a time) and monitor the condensation results. I'm thinking that maybe the walls of your house aren't breathing properly and elevated moisture vapour is the result.???

Your breathing is a big part of the condensation production process. Your breath has an RH of 95% at 35 degrees (rapidly elevating the RH of the colder surrounding air) and adds about 1 litres of water to the air for each person (when at rest) A lot more when your wife wears her strap on. Does your dehumidifier keep up with the occupants overnight moisture vapour production? Is there any capacity left over to address the production from cooking, washing, ironing, exercising etc?

To help figure out what part the windows have to play, you could find other home owners with the same joinery and see what experiences they are having? If you are all experiencing the same thing and the manufacturer installed the windows, you probably (time dependent) have a potential claim against them.

[Maki]

The windows will collect (or show) the condensation and may be contributing by way of being poorly insulated (via thermal bridging of the frames) but they do not cause the elevated moisture vapour content that is the primary problem. So, you have two problems. 1. poorly functioning/quality double glazed windows (it does happen) and 2. an excess of and/or poor management of moisture vapour.

To help figure out what part the windows have to play, you could find other home owners with the same joinery and see what experiences they are having? If you are all experiencing the same thing and the manufacturer installed the windows, you probably (time dependent) have a potential claim against them.

The primary problem, as you say is the elevated moisture vapor content. If there is a problem with the double glazed windows, then symptoms such as condensation between the panes should soon become apparent. (As long as the space between the panes is sealed the double glazed windows must be functioning correctly). If this does not appear it is unlikely that there is any problem with the windows.

[SPman]

Retrofitting d/g windows....an interesting discussion here http://forums.energymatters.com.au/alternative-building/topic2411.html
however - we also have heat exclusion considerations more to the fore over here....

[BMWST?]

if you have a moisture problem,you must find the cause of it and or ventilate.Ventilation is the only way to drive out the excess moisture that occurs from living indoors.If you have a newish house you need to ensure you do ventilate.We have an older house with single pane windows.One half of the house gets very good sun,the other half gets poor sun and is fairly close to a bank.We used to have really bad condensation in the winter.We got a DVS type system,the obe that pulls the warm air form the roof space and blows it into the house,slightly pressurizing it.The air in the house is therefore constantly changed with air form the outside,warmed in the hot roof space,pumped intot he house,where it forces the old damp air out,and drys everything because it is very dry air.Thwe installed it last year in the middle of winter.That morning the window glass was running with consednsation,the next morning there was a little the next morning NONE.We get a little condensation on the windows if the night has been quite cold.A dvs system wont work in a very new house unless there is actually a way out for the "old" air.New houses are airtight compared to a house built in the 1950-through to at least the late 90s.

[steve_t]

^ PPV - positive pressure ventilation. I'm told it's much more effective than the old extractor fan dealy. Croc?

[flyingcrocodile46]

The primary problem, as you say is the elevated moisture vapor content. If there is a problem with the double glazed windows, then symptoms such as condensation between the panes should soon become apparent. (As long as the space between the panes is sealed the double glazed windows must be functioning correctly). If this does not appear it is unlikely that there is any problem with the windows.

Is the condensation between the two panes of glass or on the inside face of glass? I just assumed it was the inside face and figured that the thermal bridging through the frame was likely causing heat loss from the glass itself (through contact with the frame) and that the condensation then formed on the cooler glass.

In any event, yes the RH of the air is most likely the bigger part of the problem. The RH in Kiwi homes is higher than the international average (climate driven) and rises to over 90% during sleeping cycles. The more I think about it the more convinced I am becoming that it is predominantly an RH problem (rather than a glazing problem)

Condensation will readily form on the windows in a well heated house following a sleep period when the RH rises to around the 90% mark. For instance a constant heat of 18 degrees with an outside temperature only 1.5 degrees less (16.5 degrees) will result in the dew point being reached with an RH of 91%. That is to say a 1.5 degree temperature difference is enough to trigger condensation when the relative humidity passes 90%

[flyingcrocodile46]

if you have a moisture problem,you must find the cause of it and or ventilate.Ventilation is the only way to drive out the excess moisture that occurs from living indoors.If you have a newish house you need to ensure you do ventilate.We have an older house with single pane windows.One half of the house gets very good sun,the other half gets poor sun and is fairly close to a bank.We used to have really bad condensation in the winter.We got a DVS type system,the obe that pulls the warm air form the roof space and blows it into the house,slightly pressurizing it.The air in the house is therefore constantly changed with air form the outside,warmed in the hot roof space,pumped intot he house,where it forces the old damp air out,and drys everything because it is very dry air.Thwe installed it last year in the middle of winter.That morning the window glass was running with consednsation,the next morning there was a little the next morning NONE.We get a little condensation on the windows if the night has been quite cold.A dvs system wont work in a very new house unless there is actually a way out for the "old" air.New houses are airtight compared to a house built in the 1950-through to at least the late 90s.


^ PPV - positive pressure ventilation. I'm told it's much more effective than the old extractor fan dealy. Croc?

Got to duck out but I will comment on this issue as it is not straight forward and yes and no answers will vary greatly depending on the project specifics but I will say this. The RH in roof spaces at different times of the day for different construction types are much higher than within the house. This means that in some instances at least part of the time you may be making things worse by using that air.

[Maki]

Is the condensation between the two panes of glass or on the inside face of glass? I just assumed it was the inside face and figured that the thermal bridging through the frame was likely causing heat loss from the glass itself (through contact with the frame) and that the condensation then formed on the cooler glass.

In any event, yes the RH of the air is most likely the bigger part of the problem. The RH in Kiwi homes is higher than the international average (climate driven) and rises to over 90% during sleeping cycles. The more I think about it the more convinced I am becoming that it is predominantly an RH problem (rather than a glazing problem)

Condensation will readily form on the windows in a well heated house following a sleep period when the RH rises to around the 90% mark. For instance a constant heat of 18 degrees with an outside temperature only 1.5 degrees less (16.5 degrees) will result in the dew point being reached with an RH of 91%. That is to say a 1.5 degree temperature difference is enough to trigger condensation when the relative humidity passes 90%

If there is condensation between the panes, the so called IGU (insulated glass unit) is defective and should be replaced, at least if it is still under manufacturer's warranty. Condensation on the inside face, not between the panes, is caused by a low surface temperature and a high dew point and as you say, the low surface temperature is often caused by thermal bridging. I have this issue in my house since the IGU's were installed in pre existing non thermally broken alu joinery and there is sometimes some condensation on the alu frames and the part of the window that is near the frame (cooled down by the frame). I am nevertheless happy with the job since it has made our house much warmer. I understood all this before the work was done and I was happy to accept this compromise to save on cost and the inconvenience of having to have our existing joinery replaced.

I am sure RH is the bigger part of the problem. RH around the 90% mark is not healthy at all and it needs to be lowered some way.

If you have IGUs outside the warranty period and start to see condensation between the panes, do not panic. All is not lost. There could be a lot of life left in the units and they may not have to be replaced for years to come. The solution is to drill small holes in the inner glass near opposite corners of the inner window pane, one near each corner (a total of two holes). This will ventilate the space between the panes and should get rid of the condensation. Of course the fact that the air between the panes is now slightly ventilated will reduce the performance of the IGU units but they will nevertheless still be far superior to single glazed windows.

Before we changed to double glazing we had the insulation in our roof upgraded. We noticed almost no difference from that but the double glazing which is admittedly MUCH more expensive has made a huge difference.

[Ocean1]

Condensation will readily form on the windows in a well heated house following a sleep period when the RH rises to around the 90% mark. For instance a constant heat of 18 degrees with an outside temperature only 1.5 degrees less (16.5 degrees) will result in the dew point being reached with an RH of 91%. That is to say a 1.5 degree temperature difference is enough to trigger condensation when the relative humidity passes 90%

Yes. Assuming you want to maintain a comfortable temperature then managing condensation means either drying the air in the house or swapping it for the drier air outside. I see the trend towards more airtight homes in an attempt to manage temperature as the single biggest driver of condensation issues. Considering that a high percentage of the water that comes into the house through your various taps ends up in the interior atmosphere it shouldn't really come as any surprise that it takes some sort of mechanism to manage it. Not saying we all need to revert to shiplapped weatherboard, but provision for detailed ventilation control should be a given for any new build.

Heat pumps are a reasonable choice in that they can control both RH and temperature OK for most applications. However, there's other problems that come with over-airtight homes that mean there's a minimum realistic through-flow required. I bought this house, which came with a hugeous fuckoff solid fuel burner and a DVS system, (two, actually) which is set to manage airflow at the minimum required to stop condensation. It works, if I turn it off we get condensation in the kitchen and bedroom at night, turn it on and set it to just above minimum flow and we get none. The roof cavity is vented, so we're essentially pulling air from outside. Given the price and capacity of the heating system I really don't care that I have to heat that small amount of fresh air.

Also, while it's not double glazed the alloy joinery is of a better quality than anything else I've seen in a domestic application, and it has particularly cute adjustable vents built into the lower rail. So if I notice any hint of condensation in a particular corner I just open that vent a tad more. So while I didn't spec' this place I'm nevertheless pleased that someone who knew their shit did.

[Ocean1]

The solution is to drill small holes in the inner glass near opposite corners of the inner window pane, one near each corner (a total of two holes). This will ventilate the space between the panes and should get rid of the condensation. Of course the fact that the air between the panes is now slightly ventilated will reduce the performance of the IGU units but they will nevertheless still be far superior to single glazed windows.

You could also take the units out of the frames, cut out most of the perimeter sealant, re-stuff the seperator with dessicant and re-seal them. It's not that difficult, but you do need to know what the original sealant was.

[Maki]

You could also take the units out of the frames, cut out most of the perimeter sealant, re-stuff the seperator with dessicant and re-seal them. It's not that difficult, but you do need to know what the original sealant was.

Not that difficult, cough cough... I have 30 IGUs in my house, some are quite large. I just don't see myself doing what you described 10 years from now...

[flyingcrocodile46]

Yes. Assuming you want to maintain a comfortable temperature then managing condensation means either drying the air in the house or swapping it for the drier air outside. I see the trend towards more airtight homes in an attempt to manage temperature as the single biggest driver of condensation issues. Considering that a high percentage of the water that comes into the house through your various taps ends up in the interior atmosphere it shouldn't really come as any surprise that it takes some sort of mechanism to manage it. Not saying we all need to revert to shiplapped weatherboard, but provision for detailed ventilation control should be a given for any new build.

Heat pumps are a reasonable choice in that they can control both RH and temperature OK for most applications. However, there's other problems that come with over-airtight homes that mean there's a minimum realistic through-flow required. I bought this house, which came with a hugeous fuckoff solid fuel burner and a DVS system, (two, actually) which is set to manage airflow at the minimum required to stop condensation. It works, if I turn it off we get condensation in the kitchen and bedroom at night, turn it on and set it to just above minimum flow and we get none. The roof cavity is vented, so we're essentially pulling air from outside. Given the price and capacity of the heating system I really don't care that I have to heat that small amount of fresh air.

Also, while it's not double glazed the alloy joinery is of a better quality than anything else I've seen in a domestic application, and it has particularly cute adjustable vents built into the lower rail. So if I notice any hint of condensation in a particular corner I just open that vent a tad more. So while I didn't spec' this place I'm nevertheless pleased that someone who knew their shit did.

Good to hear you have a good one. Yes to the window vents (they should be compulsory).


Yes it pays to know what you are doing when you build a new air tight type home. Mashman says his wall lining is strandboard or particle board with a veneer on it. If he has sealed it with a waterproof clear coat of some type, the normal (healthy) diffusion process will be prevented and the RH will be all the higher for it. A good design needs to incorporate materials and coatings that have high moisture vapour permeability to allow natural diffusion of the moisture vapour toward the cold exterior and a slightly less permeable exterior cladding/wrap. This is often not considered in new home design and will not be helping with window condensation problems. There is a company marketing wraps with different properties (for inside and outside) that act a bit like one way valves, allowing moisture vapour easy egress and restricted ingress. I am not yet convinced that it is necessary or practical to use these products as their installation requirements and the cost of the product are quite onerous.

Further on the RH contribution i just checked and see that at 18 degrees and 70% RH the glass temperature has to drop to 12.5 degrees (rather than 16.5 degrees at 91% RH) before the dew point (condensation) will be triggered.

[Maki]

This is useful:

http://www.table-references.info/meteo-table-dew-point.php

[Ocean1]

Not that difficult, cough cough... I have 30 IGUs in my house, some are quite large. I just don't see myself doing what you described 10 years from now...

P'raps not. It is, however the same process that was used the first time around, without anything like the materials cost.

But no, I wouldn't be attempting a full re-build of every unit in a house, I'd spend the energy making the original manufacturer's life very very difficult, expired warranty or not.

Fact is most leaks aren't age related, they're pinholes in the sealant that only become apparent when the small amount of dessicant in there becomes saturated. I've seen two or three IGU's fail in a house lot in the first year or two, very few beyond that and failing a spectacular catastrophic sealant decomposition a decade down the track I doubt you'd ever find a whole houseload with the problem.

One caveat: most IGUs will eventually leak if the installation procedure or frame design doesn't allow for adequate drainage. If the laminate is allowed to continually sit in water the unit WILL fail.

DAMpubliclyHIK

[mashman]

The windows will collect (or show) the condensation and may be contributing by way of being poorly insulated (via thermal bridging of the frames) but they do not cause the elevated moisture vapour content that is the primary problem. So, you have two problems. 1. poorly functioning/quality double glazed windows (it does happen) and 2. an excess of and/or poor management of moisture vapour.

Is your house single level, split level, or two story? What sort of roof construction is it? Do you shut the windows when you go to bed at night? which rooms/windows show the most and least amount of condensation? Is the veneer strandboard on th einside faces of all the exterior walls? What sort of ceiling lining do you have? What sort of sealer/paint/polyurethane was used on the veneer (does it breathe and allow moisture vapour to pass through?), What sort of wall wrap was used? The permeability of walls and cladding plays a really big part in moisture vapour control. You should replace your dehumidifier with one that is known to work well and leave it overnight in each room (one at a time) and monitor the condensation results. I'm thinking that maybe the walls of your house aren't breathing properly and elevated moisture vapour is the result.???

Your breathing is a big part of the condensation production process. Your breath has an RH of 95% at 35 degrees (rapidly elevating the RH of the colder surrounding air) and adds about 1 litres of water to the air for each person (when at rest) A lot more when your wife wears her strap on. Does your dehumidifier keep up with the occupants overnight moisture vapour production? Is there any capacity left over to address the production from cooking, washing, ironing, exercising etc?

To help figure out what part the windows have to play, you could find other home owners with the same joinery and see what experiences they are having? If you are all experiencing the same thing and the manufacturer installed the windows, you probably (time dependent) have a potential claim against them.

At least one window in every house is open throughout the day. The windows in the bathroom are generally cracked open all night. There are gaps between the sliding doors in the lounge, gaps enough to allow for a generous airflow around the room. If it ain't about 12 degrees in the house, we generally don't put the heating on. The heating is a heat pump at one end of the house and a couple of little radiators at the other end of the house... again though, they're hardly ever on (maybe 15 times over winter).

Single level. Tin roof. Not all of them. They pretty much all have condensation (it isn't constant condensation, some days there's feck all). The walls are 2+ inch thick particle/resin board, not sure what the veneer is (no need for jib), but it comes as smooth as a babies bum from the factory, prime and paint, completely waterproof so I highly doubt that they breath and let moisture flow through. Not sure what the paint is. I highly doubt it's the walls as I wanted walls that wouldn't breath, but that's obviously no guarantee. Ceiling and walls are lined with pink bats and wrapped with that weather wrap stuff. Unfortunately we can't go back to the window people coz the builders were dicks and didn't pay the window company for their houses and subsequently the window folk went out of business. I'm leaning towards the windows being shite. Those little weep holes for the condensation run off allow cold air to riser through them at night. I blocked them once upon a time and to an extent it helped, but as there was still condensation that wasn't a long term strategy. Other houses around us don't suffer as much with condensation, we've compared on like for like nights, but they do suffer... that could be due to them heating their houses to sauna level... having said that we do have triple sliding doors, 2 ceiling to floor metre width windows, 2 lots of 4-5 metre ceiling to floor windows and then lots of "normal" sized windows in the place.

I guess we're a house of heavy breathers and my wife doesn't need a strapon, she has fat fingers :blink: The clothes are dried outside, the ironing gets do by some ironing fairies, when cooking the extractor is on and the window is open, :rofl:@exercise... essentially the house is well ventilated, no doors are closed and when yer sitting with socks off you can feel a wee breeze lappin at yer tootsies.

[BMWST?]

Got to duck out but I will comment on this issue as it is not straight forward and yes and no answers will vary greatly depending on the project specifics but I will say this. The RH in roof spaces at different times of the day for different construction types are much higher than within the house. This means that in some instances at least part of the time you may be making things worse by using that air.

await your comments later.Interesting stuff.

[flyingcrocodile46]

await your comments later.Interesting stuff.

Gotta go get and eat tea then the game is on so maybe later.

Mashman :facepalm: Your walls not breathing and big non breathing (even blocked the condensation channels to stop the air :facepalm:) glazing units are not helping. Sorry. gotta go

[BMWST?]

Single level. Tin roof. Not all of them. They pretty much all have condensation (it isn't constant condensation, some days there's feck all). The walls are 2+ inch thick particle/resin board, not sure what the veneer is (no need for jib), but it comes as smooth as a babies bum from the factory, prime and paint, completely waterproof so I highly doubt that they breath and let moisture flow through.




It finally came to me the type of house you may have.I cant remember the actual brand names.Instead of conventional timber framing the walls are 35mm thick mdf or particle board with melamine coating(very similar to kitchen cabinets),and the ceilings are about 20mm boards of the same type of stuff which are supported by the roof trusses.The exterior is battened and clad/insulated in the normal way.Nowadays the use a 70 mm non structural frame to create the insulation cavity ,they used to just use a 35 or 45 mm batten.

[nodrog]

UVPC isnt acrylic

[Maki]

It finally came to me the type of house you may have.I cant remember the actual brand names.Instead of conventional timber framing the walls are 35mm thick mdf or particle board with melamine coating(very similar to kitchen cabinets),and the ceilings are about 20mm boards of the same type of stuff which are supported by the roof trusses.The exterior is battened and clad/insulated in the normal way.Nowadays the use a 70 mm non structural frame to create the insulation cavity ,they used to just use a 35 or 45 mm batten.

So the structure of his house is supported, not by a frame but with 35mm particle board? In that case it had better be waterproof. Everyone knows what happens to particle board that is constantly moist. They put it into boxes and label it Weetbix. Apparently it is the stuff they use to build All Blacks.

[Ocean1]

Instead of conventional timber framing the walls are 35mm thick mdf or particle board with melamine coating(very similar to kitchen cabinets),and the ceilings are about 20mm boards of the same type of stuff which are supported by the roof trusses..

A cardboard box?

Srsly?

[mashman]

It finally came to me the type of house you may have.I cant remember the actual brand names.Instead of conventional timber framing the walls are 35mm thick mdf or particle board with melamine coating(very similar to kitchen cabinets),and the ceilings are about 20mm boards of the same type of stuff which are supported by the roof trusses.The exterior is battened and clad/insulated in the normal way.Nowadays the use a 70 mm non structural frame to create the insulation cavity ,they used to just use a 35 or 45 mm batten.

Sounds like it... I think the stuff was called maxim panel, now metra panel by the looks of it.

[Maki]

A cardboard box?

Srsly?

:eek5::shit::eek5::shit:

[mashman]

A cardboard box?

Srsly?

:rofl: srsly... the stuff can support me leaping up and down on it. Cept it isn't layered like MDF. It's compressed/compacted something or other and resin. I have seen a cross section of the stuff and it's tuff stuff.

[Ocean1]

:rofl: srsly... the stuff can support me leaping up and down on it. Cept it isn't layered like MDF. It's compressed/compacted something or other and resin. I have seen a cross section of the stuff and it's tuff stuff.

I'll have a wee google later. I suspect it's one of a small group of products made of minced tree, mineral binders and one of the polymer resins.

[Maki]

:rofl: srsly... the stuff can support me leaping up and down on it. Cept it isn't layered like MDF. It's compressed/compacted something or other and resin. I have seen a cross section of the stuff and it's tuff stuff.

It probably is tuff. Just make sure to keep it dry.

[mashman]

I'll have a wee google later. I suspect it's one of a small group of products made of minced tree, mineral binders and one of the polymer resins.

Sounds about right, minced tree sounds like an apt description of what I saw. I believe housing NZ, summit on google, are thinking about using it for the houses they wanna build. It's also used for apartment buildings n other applications too from what I've seen. It certainly allows a house to be erected quickly so that thems indoors can start on prepping earlier than they normally would be able to. You could probably get a house up and water tight within a day giving the Amish a run for their money with a fraction of the manpower, just 30 times the cost.

[mashman]

It probably is tuff. Just make sure to keep it dry.

I'd be surprised if it would soak up water... although having said that they do reseal the edges that they cut.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Triboard or Tripanel homes came on the market in the mid to late 90's.

Not in my first 50 choices.

Mashman, your problem is that the walls (probably floors and ceilings as well) do not allow diffusion (uptake, migration and release) of moisture vapor to occur. This will almost certainly be resulting in significantly elevated RH when they are occupied and with nowhere else to go the moisture vapour will dew point on your windows if the temperature of the glass is more than 1 to 1.5 degrees lower than the room temperature.

Bad choice of building products and not much you can do about it other than to reduce the RH level (as previously suggested) a little bit of ventilation and a good dehumidifier (running overnight) is about all you can do to improve your lot. Oh yeah.. Un-block the drainage holes :bash:.

[mashman]

Triboard or Tripanel homes came on the market in the mid to late 90's.

Not in my first 50 choices.

Mashman, your problem is that the walls (probably floors and ceilings as well) do not allow diffusion (uptake, migration and release) of moisture vapor to occur. This will almost certainly be resulting in significantly elevated RH when they are occupied and with nowhere else to go the moisture vapour will dew point on your windows if the temperature of the glass is more than 1 to 1.5 degrees lower than the room temperature.

Bad choice of building products and not much you can do about it other than to reduce the RH level (as previously suggested) a little bit of ventilation and a good dehumidifier (running overnight) is about all you can do to improve your lot. Oh yeah.. Un-block the drainage holes :bash:.

If by that you mean multiple layers of a sheet of something, then this is not the stuff you're looking for. As Ocean says, it looks more like minced tree with solidified sticky stuff packing it out between a couple of layers of veneer (dunno what that's made of).

The odd thing is this place takes less to heat that the last place, last place being yer usual jib on frame with gap filling bats and brick clad, where both places had about as much condensation as each other. I get the idea behind moisture etc... and if I have gaps all over the place there's nothing I can do about it other than run a dehumidifier constantly as the weepy holes allow the moisture in (at the perfect place to condense :facepalm:) whilst I'm sleeping and the shite windows collect the moisture and make pretty patterns on the window. I don't have the wee holes blocked in this place and only did it for a short period of time as an experiment, that "worked", in the last place. I want a sealed house next time. I have a design in mind, but need to run it past a few people first to decide on materials and feasibility. If I had enough cash I'd love to build a second house into a hillside. Damn I'd love to retrain so that I could design and build shit... ah well.

[Ocean1]

it looks more like minced tree with solidified sticky stuff packing it out between a couple of layers of veneer (dunno what that's made of).

It's a particle board. It's made of dead tree and "a resin", the details of which remain undefined. Interestingly, (for tech boffins) you don't actually need a resin, if you squish dead tree hard enough the sticky bits of dead tree called lignins do a pretty good job of keeping it in the squished shape.

See here: http://metrapanel.co.nz/METRA%20Technical%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

Thing is, it's sooooooo cheap to produce there's been a multitude of NEW, IMPROVED applications for that general class of material. 30 years ago they sold it as an exterior cladding board. Briefly.

Oh, guess who approved that as a building material.

[mashman]

It's a particle board. It's made of dead tree and "a resin", the details of which remain undefined. Interestingly, (for tech boffins) you don't actually need a resin, if you squish dead tree hard enough the sticky bits of dead tree called lignins do a pretty good job of keeping it in the squished shape.

See here: http://metrapanel.co.nz/METRA%20Technical%20Data%20Sheet.pdf

Thing is, it's sooooooo cheap to produce there's been a multitude of NEW, IMPROVED applications for that general class of material. 30 years ago they sold it as an exterior cladding board. Briefly.

Oh, guess who approved that as a building material.

Certainly a few more flavours that weren't options for us 3 years ago. I wonder if it could be "shaped"?

Nick Smith?

[caseye]

Be very! surprised if what you actually have is NOT Strand Board. Not particles of wood fibre ( aka particleboard ) but strands ( typically 30 mm wide by up to 150mm long and being only approx 0.5 of a mm thick ) and then pressed together with resin to make a sheet product far superior to any particleboard ever made.
Having described the stuff I think you have.
Been in the timber, houses, sheet product range for over 30 yrs. Pretty sure it's strandboard not any sort of particleboard.I'd also venture to state that your home doesn't have vents fitted to the top of every window in the place.
Was involved in the introduction of Strandboard House building from the get go.
They( the makers of this wonderful product) were a NZ owned and operated company who tried very hard to make it happen. Unfortunately they ran out of money before things took hold and sold out to an offshore organisation.Prior to this happening though, they built many homes using Strandboard as floors, walls and ceiling linings with trusses and cladding added directly to the outsides.
Worked fucking beautifully.
But, they quickly discovered that their house were TOO airtight and this introduced high level of formaldehyde gas.This put people to sleep and made them quite sick.
So, they added permanently open( just a bit) vents to the top of every window in the house.
Stopped the problem of gassing the occupants overnight.
Also stopped the condensation problem to a large extent.
Enough ventilation to air the house, not so much that it introduced too much cold air inside to create internal condensation.
These house were well built, earthquake proof to the enth degree, well sound proofed and as solid as rocks.
They were built two stories high and in considerable numbers all around the country. Great homes when built correctly, I'd live in one and be happy that unless the ground literally opened up and swallowed it whole that we'd get alive.
Pity is, as always here, overseas interests now control the quality control and the R& D, so bugger all has happened since then.
Check to see what your home is actually built out of, if it is Strand board ( I'd be surprised if it wasn't) then look into adding the window vents, this will stop your problem in it's tracks.
It's a relatively easy retro fix, they take out the glass and cut the top 50 mm moff then they fit the vent ( which can be closed, not recommended ) then reinstall the glass.
Be interested to know what happens here.

[Maki]

Venting sounds like a good idea.

[mashman]

Be very! surprised if what you actually have is NOT Strand Board. Not particles of wood fibre ( aka particleboard ) but strands ( typically 30 mm wide by up to 150mm long and being only approx 0.5 of a mm thick ) and then pressed together with resin to make a sheet product far superior to any particleboard ever made.
Having described the stuff I think you have.


Having been around when they were constructing the house, I'm pretty sure it's particle board. So the stuff that you think I have is not the stuff that I have that you thought I had as I know the stuff that I have and think it's not the stuff that you thought it might be. I believe this stuff is manufactured in Taupo and iffen I remember correctly they wanted to open another plant somewhere.

Cool story though murderer

[BMWST?]

i think the earlier versions were a TRi BOARD panel particle board laminated between two layers of thin mdf.The exterior of these panels is completely clad over the top of a batten,so in theory the panels themselves NEVER get wet.

[steve_t]

One of my colleagues has a metrapanel house. She was stoked with how quickly it went up but noted that all of the design needs to be done preconstruction. If at a later stage you decide you'd like an extra power point somewhere, no can do. All of the panels are made to order. I'll ask her on Monday if she has any issues with condensation

[Maki]

One of my colleagues has a metrapanel house. She was stoked with how quickly it went up but noted that all of the design needs to be done preconstruction. If at a later stage you decide you'd like an extra power point somewhere, no can do. All of the panels are made to order. I'll ask her on Monday if she has any issues with condensation

What if work needs to be done on wiring and or plumbing behind the walls?

[flyingcrocodile46]

await your comments later.Interesting stuff.

As I indicated in my previous post (in addition to factors such as the environment in which the houses are situated, as mentioned by someone earlier) the type of construction and materials used changes the impact of moisture vapour. The RH levels in poorly ventilated subfloor spaces and roof spaces tends to be higher than the inside of the house for a variety of reasons.

RH % is a measurement of the level of moisture vapour in the air (relative to air temperature) and can never exceed 100%. However the actual amount of moisture vapour in the air increases as the temperature rises and decreases as the temperature decreases. We see evidence of this as evaporation and condensation.

Moisture vapour in the house diffuses up through the ceiling into the roof quite happily as the temperature of the roof space goes up (because of sun warming the roof). All is good and the RH level in the house and roof may even be balanced (but the actual amount of moisture vapour in the air of the roof will have gradually become much higher that in the house).

When the temperature in the roof space drops the RH will start to increase until it gets toward 100% and will be absorbed into timber, gib board or other absorbent material. The same thing happens when you take warm air from the roof and introduce it into a cooler room. How much of a problem this might be depends on the construction and ventilation of the roof in the first instance and the walls in the second. If you have a sealed roof membrane, the moisture vapour in the roof can't get out through the membrane. The RH and moisture vapour levels will be elevated. If the roof breaths easily then the RH and moisture vapour levels will be reduced... No (or less) problem.

I have heard of ventilation systems that have drawn air from roofs and subfloors into the house only to see an increase rather than decrease of condensation and mold problems. Also heard of installations that have resulted in saturated ceilings so bad they thought the roof must be leaking.

[mashman]

One of my colleagues has a metrapanel house. She was stoked with how quickly it went up but noted that all of the design needs to be done preconstruction. If at a later stage you decide you'd like an extra power point somewhere, no can do. All of the panels are made to order. I'll ask her on Monday if she has any issues with condensation

Cool. I'd be interested to hear about that.


What if work needs to be done on wiring and or plumbing behind the walls?

The wiring runs across the ceiling and a channel is drilled into the panel and run to the power point. Seems to make a good conduit. Plumbing runs across the ceiling too, but if it's fooked (as our was) you need to take part of the external wall (and weather wrap) out to get at the pipe.

[BMWST?]

As I indicated in my previous post (in addition to factors such as the environment in which the houses are situated, as mentioned by someone earlier) the type of construction and materials used changes the impact of moisture vapour. The RH levels in poorly ventilated subfloor spaces and roof spaces tends to be higher than the inside of the house for a variety of reasons.

RH % is a measurement of the level of moisture vapour in the air (relative to air temperature) and can never exceed 100%. However the actual amount of moisture vapour in the air increases as the temperature rises and decreases as the temperature decreases. We see evidence of this as evaporation and condensation.

Moisture vapour in the house diffuses up through the ceiling into the roof quite happily as the temperature of the roof space goes up (because of sun warming the roof). All is good and the RH level in the house and roof may even be balanced (but the actual amount of moisture vapour in the air of the roof will have gradually become much higher that in the house).

When the temperature in the roof space drops the RH will start to increase until it gets toward 100% and will be absorbed into timber, gib board or other absorbent material. The same thing happens when you take warm air from the roof and introduce it into a cooler room. How much of a problem this might be depends on the construction and ventilation of the roof in the first instance and the walls in the second. If you have a sealed roof membrane, the moisture vapour in the roof can't get out through the membrane. The RH and moisture vapour levels will be elevated. If the roof breaths easily then the RH and moisture vapour levels will be reduced... No (or less) problem.

hang on....i would say that every roof space in NZ homes are very well ventilated.IE a corrugated iron roof has a 20 mm high gap at every corrrugation.As the fan pushes the roof space air into the house fresh clean dry air form outside(if its winter and cold outside the air wil be carrying very little vapour) as it heats up in the roof space it can carry more vapour so when it enters the house(likely to be the same temp more or less as the air comimg from the roof space???) it can absorb any present water vapour(ie codensate on windows or walls) and then is pushed outside.

[flyingcrocodile46]

hang on....i would say that every roof space in NZ homes are very well ventilated.IE a corrugated iron roof has a 20 mm high gap at every corrrugation.As the fan pushes the roof space air into the house fresh clean dry air form outside(if its winter and cold outside the air wil be carrying very little vapour) as it heats up in the roof space it can carry more vapour so when it enters the house(likely to be the same temp more or less as the air comimg from the roof space???) it can absorb any present water vapour(ie codensate on windows or walls) and then is pushed outside.

Well you would be wrong. Membrane roofs have to have vents installed (and they often don't). Standing seam roofs don't have ventilation gaps (unless you build them in, and often aren't) etc. If you use the wrong underlay you will greatly reduce the benefit of natural diffusion through ventilation even through the ridges of corrugated iron. However your statement is correct IF your roof is well ventilated.

[steve_t]

Well you would be wrong. Membrane roofs have to have vents installed (and they often don't). Standing seam roofs don't have ventilation gaps (unless you build them in, and often aren't) etc. If you use the wrong underlay you will greatly reduce the benefit of natural diffusion through ventilation even through the ridges of corrugated iron. However your statement is correct IF your roof is well ventilated.

Last summer I was climbing around in my roof space and I was sweating like a .... Anyway, I realised that while I had ridge venting, there weren't any actual soffit vents. BRANZ seems to reckon that the 'stack effect' and wind is enough for adequate ventilation of the roof space but I wasn't convinced. So yeah, not sure what constitutes adequate roof space ventilation but I'd think soffit vents would be a good idea

[BMWST?]

Well you would be wrong. Membrane roofs have to have vents installed (and they often don't). Standing seam roofs don't have ventilation gaps (unless you build them in, and often aren't) etc. If you use the wrong underlay you will greatly reduce the benefit of natural diffusion through ventilation even through the ridges of corrugated iron. However your statement is correct IF your roof is well ventilated.


yes afaik the hrv-dvs systems rely on the roof space being very well ventilated,ie no real impediment to new air to come into the roof space.When i talk roof space i mean the typical piched roof of iron,or tile

[flyingcrocodile46]

Last summer I was climbing around in my roof space and I was sweating like a .... Anyway, I realised that while I had ridge venting, there weren't any actual soffit vents. BRANZ seems to reckon that the 'stack effect' and wind is enough for adequate ventilation of the roof space but I wasn't convinced. So yeah, not sure what constitutes adequate roof space ventilation but I'd think soffit vents would be a good idea

I have wondered that myself. I see older houses circa 50/60's with hole punched soffits (presumably commercially produced) that tend to indicate a temporary tilt toward recognition of the wisdom of soffit ventilation. I have a bit of a library of technical training books from the mid 40's through to current, but can't find anything on soffit venting. The yanks are way ahead of us on this stuff (except we don't want moisture barriers on the insides of walls... due to our higher humidity levels.)

[caseye]

Having been around when they were constructing the house, I'm pretty sure it's particle board. So the stuff that you think I have is not the stuff that I have that you thought I had as I know the stuff that I have and think it's not the stuff that you thought it might be. I believe this stuff is manufactured in Taupo and iffen I remember correctly they wanted to open another plant somewhere.

Cool story though murderer

You are right in the plant location being Taupo. It was Triboard NZ LTD at that time. I am partially right in saying Strandboard. The flooring product was Strandboard, 20mm thick and so much better than particleboard ever could be. I was wrong in saying that the walls and ceiling panels were strandboard. They were in fact Triboard ( strandboard inner core with MDF or Customwood outer layers) These panels were used as internal walls and ceiling panels, depending on load or application they ranged in thickness from 22.5 mm and included 32mm ( used for doors) to 110mm for external wall substrate.
Sheet sizes were also variable but notable for their exceptional 3600x 2400 panel sizes, stretching out to 7.2m lengths when ordered specifically.
There is and has not been any other product like it in NZ before or since.
The product is brilliant and when used properly and vented correctly the homes they create are awesome, warm in winter, cool in summer and with very little internal temperature fluctuation.
The vents I spoke of, were however, absolutely necessary for these homes to breathe correctly and to function properly when it came to moisture.
I know Croc will confirm the product, perhaps not that all constructors did their job properly in it's correct application and fitment.
I know what I know as the company I worked for at the time was the only one's who supplied all other building materials to Triboard NZ for the building of their prototype and subsequent homes.
it worked and worked well and we supplied many homes which I know are still going strong today, 2 story ones and more.

[mashman]

You are right in the plant location being Taupo. It was Triboard NZ LTD at that time. I am partially right in saying Strandboard. The flooring product was Strandboard, 20mm thick and so much better than particleboard ever could be. I was wrong in saying that the walls and ceiling panels were strandboard. They were in fact Triboard ( strandboard inner core with MDF or Customwood outer layers) These panels were used as internal walls and ceiling panels, depending on load or application they ranged in thickness from 22.5 mm and included 32mm ( used for doors) to 110mm for external wall substrate.
Sheet sizes were also variable but notable for their exceptional 3600x 2400 panel sizes, stretching out to 7.2m lengths when ordered specifically.
There is and has not been any other product like it in NZ before or since.
The product is brilliant and when used properly and vented correctly the homes they create are awesome, warm in winter, cool in summer and with very little internal temperature fluctuation.
The vents I spoke of, were however, absolutely necessary for these homes to breathe correctly and to function properly when it came to moisture.
I know Croc will confirm the product, perhaps not that all constructors did their job properly in it's correct application and fitment.
I know what I know as the company I worked for at the time was the only one's who supplied all other building materials to Triboard NZ for the building of their prototype and subsequent homes.
it worked and worked well and we supplied many homes which I know are still going strong today, 2 story ones and more.

Wasn't doubtin ya at all mate. It was Maxim panel when we had this place built and I might have the specs lying around in some draw somewhere for what it is. The cross sections and the cuts they made for ceiling, wall or inner wall were all the same stuff. I was told it was particleboard... it may have strands in it, dunno, but there were no sheets in this stuff... none that I saw anyways.

As ya say, it is damn good stuff. Do you know if the could make an arc out of the stuff?

[flyingcrocodile46]

You are right in the plant location being Taupo. It was Triboard NZ LTD at that time. I am partially right in saying Strandboard. The flooring product was Strandboard, 20mm thick and so much better than particleboard ever could be. I was wrong in saying that the walls and ceiling panels were strandboard. They were in fact Triboard ( strandboard inner core with MDF or Customwood outer layers) These panels were used as internal walls and ceiling panels, depending on load or application they ranged in thickness from 22.5 mm and included 32mm ( used for doors) to 110mm for external wall substrate.
Sheet sizes were also variable but notable for their exceptional 3600x 2400 panel sizes, stretching out to 7.2m lengths when ordered specifically.
There is and has not been any other product like it in NZ before or since.
The product is brilliant and when used properly and vented correctly the homes they create are awesome, warm in winter, cool in summer and with very little internal temperature fluctuation.
The vents I spoke of, were however, absolutely necessary for these homes to breathe correctly and to function properly when it came to moisture.
I know Croc will confirm the product, perhaps not that all constructors did their job properly in it's correct application and fitment.
I know what I know as the company I worked for at the time was the only one's who supplied all other building materials to Triboard NZ for the building of their prototype and subsequent homes.
it worked and worked well and we supplied many homes which I know are still going strong today, 2 story ones and more.

Hey Caseye, I had a bit of a skim through (didn't fully read) the specs on the Metropanel that Ocean posted :niceone: so I can now say I probably know as much about it as the old Tri-board homes that I saw being put together (once) :laugh:

Aside from a few early rumours about moisture damage board and the formaldehyde problem that you mentioned (which I understand was also an issue with some batches of particle board in Chch and has/had been addressed with revised resin formula) I don't know or have heard much about it tbh. However, that in itself is a good thing, as in my work I should have heard of any significant problems about it. Though gotta say I'm a not all that excited about it. :dodge:

Mashman,
If you have a pitched roof with flat ceiling (big well ventilated roof void), you may well find one of the new ventilation systems will solve your problem.

[Ocean1]

Aside from a few early rumours about moisture damage board and the formaldehyde problem that you mentioned (which I understand was also an issue with some batches of particle board in Chch and has/had been addressed with revised resin formula) I don't know or have heard much about it tbh.

I missed that, it identifies the binding agent as a resorcinol or phenolic resin.

Nawt wrong with that as long as they're mixed and applied correctly. I'd be more worried about the possibility of water anywhere near the edges of the panels. Like an overflowed bathtub or a failed plumbing joint.

[mashman]

Mashman,
If you have a pitched roof with flat ceiling (big well ventilated roof void), you may well find one of the new ventilation systems will solve your problem.

Aye, it'd probably help for those days when it happens. We almost put in a Lossnay... maybe next time. Tis a ?pent/shed? roof. Probably cheaper to just suffocate the familiy :shutup:

[BMWST?]

i have done trusses for all of those versions..i think the current factory is in huntly

[caseye]

i have done trusses for all of those versions..i think the current factory is in huntly

The plant in Huntly is a private operation,( Name was Riggs, I believe) that does a very good job of cutting to specification and supplying well made panels and complete wall systems depending on what they were asked to make.
All out of Tri Board or Strand board, some Gib lined and battened some not.
Wiring routeing is done at factory, grooves cut into sheet edges and tops to get wiring through but if a new point or switch is required it is a simple matter of routering a trench in the board placing the feed wire in and filling it back up ready to be painted over.
A damn fine idea, pity it's been poo poo'd by so many who have vested interests in the status quo.

[BMWST?]

A damn fine idea, pity it's been poo poo'd by so many who have vested interests in the status quo.
no need to pooh pooh them,they still buy roof trusses ,timber battens etc etc

[caseye]

no need to pooh pooh them,they still buy roof trusses ,timber battens etc etc

Cripes, I'm not poo pooing them, I'm all for them, the system is great , but more stuck in the mud co's don't like their sort of competition is all I was alluding to.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Cripes, I'm not poo pooing them, I'm all for them, the system is great , but more stuck in the mud co's don't like their sort of competition is all I was alluding to.

What difference do the opinions of the 'stick in the mud cos' make unless they are undercutting them on price or slandering them?

[SPman]

Cripes, I'm not poo pooing them, I'm all for them, the system is great , but more stuck in the mud co's don't like their sort of competition is all I was alluding to.
A mate and myself were involved in building Triboard houses back in the late '80's, early 90's. Mate was so impressed with the product, he used Triboard to put a second floor on his house in Glen Eden. We built 7 or 8 and an office block. you had to be quite particular about edge sealing, from memory. Also built a few Maxim board houses around 2000. I preferred the Triboard. Both sorts of houses seemed very acoustically loud (all those hard surfaces?) and were a bugger to get a high quality flat finish on the walls. The guy who developed Triboard, (forgotten his name) lost $29 mill when he had to sell his Kaitia factory back in the late 80s. We did some work for him and also did some renovations on his son's house in Epsom (using Triboard, of course)...

[steve_t]

Spoke to my colleague with the metrapanel house. She notes there's not really an issue with condensation but they do have good ventilation with a ducted airconditioning system. Another one said they have terrible condensation in their new house (stick frame) even though it has double glazing. Apparently there are no drainage holes since the windows weren't supposed to have condensation... And they didn't go with thermally broken windows as it was going to add $10,000 to the cost of the windows :shit: I guess it would have been $10,000 well spent as apparently the window frames are always covered in condensation and the water has dripped down and damaged the floor :facepalm: They complained to the builder who advised them to buy a dehumidifier :blink:

So, by the sounds of things, the metrapanel/triboard stuff isn't any more of a contributor to condensation issues than stick frame and gib. It's more ventilation and insulation etc. Well, that's just one person's take on it anyway.

[caseye]

Just had the double glazing man here for an hour. Didn't go with it today. Approx 17-$18,000.00 to do about 40 sq m of windows. This is using an acrylic that is magnetically placed on the inside of your windows.
Can also be screwed directly to the outside frame of the ali joinery, with a seal between.
While it's not all a cheap option, if it worked as well as they say it does then it'd probably be a worthwhile thing to do as you built the house.
Conventional double glazing and or retro fits using glass and gas seals is at least twice the cost of this system.
SP man if you did that amount of work for Gerry we'd have to have met on a site somewhere, way back then in the late 80's to early 90's.

[steve_t]

Just had the double glazing man here for an hour. Didn't go with it today. Approx 17-$18,000.00 to do about 40 sq m of windows. This is using an acrylic that is magnetically placed on the inside of your windows.
Can also be screwed directly to the outside frame of the ali joinery, with a seal between.
While it's not all a cheap option, if it worked as well as they say it does then it'd probably be a worthwhile thing to do as you built the house.
Conventional double glazing and or retro fits using glass and gas seals is at least twice the cost of this system.
SP man if you did that amount of work for Gerry we'd have to have met on a site somewhere, way back then in the late 80's to early 90's.

Was that MagicSeal (or something similar)?

[caseye]

Nope it was Energy Saving centre and they use Insulglaze.
Used to do glass and argon sandwich, but don't anymore, are about to bring in a glass replacement with their acrylic, but best practice so far is fit acrylic to inside of frames with steel strips around window frame and then colour matched magnetic edged sheets of acrylic straight to them.

[bones135]

We do a bit of the full retro double glazing using new glazing beads, sashes & full double glazed units. You need to be careful with the acrylic as it can scratch very easily. :cry:

[flyingcrocodile46]

Spoke to my colleague with the metrapanel house. She notes there's not really an issue with condensation but they do have good ventilation with a ducted airconditioning system. Another one said they have terrible condensation in their new house (stick frame) even though it has double glazing. Apparently there are no drainage holes since the windows weren't supposed to have condensation... And they didn't go with thermally broken windows as it was going to add $10,000 to the cost of the windows :shit: I guess it would have been $10,000 well spent as apparently the window frames are always covered in condensation and the water has dripped down and damaged the floor :facepalm: They complained to the builder who advised them to buy a dehumidifier :blink:

So, by the sounds of things, the metrapanel/triboard stuff isn't any more of a contributor to condensation issues than stick frame and gib. It's more ventilation and insulation etc. Well, that's just one person's take on it anyway.

You would be right. Unsealed walls only absorb a small percentage of the moisture vapour. Ventilation and/or a lot of money tied up in dehumidifiers is the right answer.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Nope it was Energy Saving centre and they use Insulglaze.
Used to do glass and argon sandwich, but don't anymore, are about to bring in a glass replacement with their acrylic, but best practice so far is fit acrylic to inside of frames with steel strips around window frame and then colour matched magnetic edged sheets of acrylic straight to them.

As I said earlier. To avoid disappointment it is best to be sure that you know what you are getting and how it performs. Have a look at and talk to owners of a house done the other side of winter.

[Maki]

Just had the double glazing man here for an hour. Didn't go with it today. Approx 17-$18,000.00 to do about 40 sq m of windows. This is using an acrylic that is magnetically placed on the inside of your windows.
Can also be screwed directly to the outside frame of the ali joinery, with a seal between.
While it's not all a cheap option, if it worked as well as they say it does then it'd probably be a worthwhile thing to do as you built the house.
Conventional double glazing and or retro fits using glass and gas seals is at least twice the cost of this system.
SP man if you did that amount of work for Gerry we'd have to have met on a site somewhere, way back then in the late 80's to early 90's.

Not that I know anything about this system but it sounds like a huge compromise. I would not do it unless It has been proven to work well over a number of years.

[Swoop]

Just had the double glazing man here for an hour. Didn't go with it today. Approx 17-$18,000.00 to do about 40 sq m of windows. This is using an acrylic that is magnetically placed on the inside of your windows.
That seems rather excessive for an add-on product!
A workmate has had his windows removed and replaced with aluminium (double glazed) throughout the entire house for $20k(ish).
He says the change has been dramatic in both warmth and also sound reduction. Money well spent in his opinion.

[steve_t]

Not that I know anything about this system but it sounds like a huge compromise. I would not do it unless It has been proven to work well over a number of years.

Looks like the concept of an acrylic 'window' magnetically attached to the frame of the existing window has been around for quite some time and has been proven to work well. Looking at companies like MagicSeal, The Energy Saving Centre, Magnetite NZ, DoubleGlaze shows that the tech has been around for some time, however, by most accounts, it seems the price point for magnetic acrylic retrofit glazing is only marginally less than retrofitting a sealed dual glass IGU

[BMWST?]

Cripes, I'm not poo pooing them, I'm all for them, the system is great , but more stuck in the mud co's don't like their sort of competition is all I was alluding to.
i know i was agreeing with you!

[caseye]

i know i was agreeing with you!

Thank Goodness for that.
Not doing this as I feel it is bloody expensive. Was i staying put for a bit longer I'd consider it, but lots more homework to do first.
Bats in roof and now underfloor have made a huge difference already, thermal curtains working well, might consider a few windows on the loud side.