Clutchless shifting?

[Slavvy]

Sorry if this has been posted before.

Recently a mate told me to try clutchless upshifts on the bike. I found it pretty easy to do, it reminded me of driving a car with a sequential gearbox but no spark cut lol. I just put gentle pressure on the lever and cut the throttle momentarily, it just pops into gear smoothly. Works on downshifts, too.

What I want to know is, is this bad for the bike? Will it damage the gearbox if I keep doing it? I've heard differing opinions on the matter, so I'm asking the druids of KB :not:

[steve_t]

Here ya go. Some light reading ;)

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/116440-Clutchless-shifting-bad-for-your-bike?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/85042-Clutchless-gear-shifting?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/34427-Clutchless-shifting

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/87277-Clutchless-upshifting?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/78906-Clutchless-gear-shifting?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/47491-To-use-a-clutch?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/36535-Changing-gears-without-clutch?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/16837-Changing-Up?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/10538-Clutchless-shifts.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/3147-Clutchless-shifting

:scooter::drinkup:

[bogan]

edit: ^^probly explained better up there :bleh:

A lot more wear to the shift dogs is the only downside I think. Some gearboxes probably deal this extra wear better than others. It can be smoother on the rest of the components vs a quick clutched shift too.

[Katman]

Yes, it has the potential to damage the transmission - if it's not done carefully.

The real question is.....if you've been given a clutch for a purpose why would you get in the habit of not using it?

[White trash]

I can see the attraction on a race bike to gain a tenth of a second per lap and Moto-X because I'm scared to release my grip on the bars lol but reckon for road riding there's no advantage.

[Slavvy]

Yes, it has the potential to damage the transmission - if it's not done carefully.

The real question is.....if you've been given a clutch for a purpose why would you get in the habit of not using it?

The explanation I was given was that the purpose of the clutch is for taking off at low speed, low rpm gear changes etc. I have to say that at high revs, using the clutch feels and sounds considerably more painful to the bike that doing it clutchlessly. But I really don't know if that's actually the case.

EDIT: nevermind, reading the linked threads, now feel like an idiot :p

[merv]

I'm with White Trash on this one. On the road just use your clutch and go easy on the gearbox.

[ducatilover]

It's awesome, only if you wave.

[short-circuit]

Has anybody seen my phone?

[FJRider]

Has anybody seen my phone?

Yep ... it's right where you left it ...

[short-circuit]

Fanx cuz....I also found a nice big wad of Blu Tack :niceone:

[Ronin]

It's awesome, only if you wave.

BASTARD!

you beat me

[baptist]

It's awesome, only if you wave.

AND wear a silly hat :yes:

[DMNTD]

I can see the attraction on a race bike to gain a tenth of a second per lap and Moto-X because I'm scared to release my grip on the bars lol but reckon for road riding there's no advantage.

About covers it nicely :sunny:

[cheshirecat]

The explanation I was given was that the purpose of the clutch is for taking off at low speed, low rpm gear changes etc. :p
Where did you get that advice from? Or can't you say.

[Oblivion]

AND wear a silly hat :yes:

Does this hat say "dunce" per chance?

[hayd3n]

I clutchless shift so i can wave whilst im changing gears:yes:

[Slavvy]

Where did you get that advice from? Or can't you say.

A friend with an aprilia rs250. But that's broken down so many times despite our best efforts :D

[cheshirecat]

A friend with an aprilia rs250. But that's broken down so many times despite our best efforts :D
Follow your instincts. Clutches are a GOOD thing. Just think of whats happening to your poor engine if the clutch is not being used. As said above, OK for racing to shave a few 10ths and you are not paying for a engine rebuild.

[Slavvy]

Righto, advice taken. Thanks lads.

[FlangMasterJ]

I'm with White Trash on this one. On the road just use your clutch and go easy on the gearbox.

I always clutch on the downshifts but when shifting up the majority of the time I don't. If I'm accelerating hard I'll not use the clutch but when just cruising I'll clutch it.

[pritch]

I can see the attraction on a race bike to gain a tenth of a second per lap and Moto-X because I'm scared to release my grip on the bars lol but reckon for road riding there's no advantage.

I have seen it recommended in magazines for when carrying a pillion because it should be smoother. For that to work as expected presumably some practice would be required?

[scracha]

I have seen it recommended in magazines for when carrying a pillion because it should be smoother. For that to work as expected presumably some practice would be required?
Supposedly stops the pillion headbut thing......but it's much nicer on bike/pillion to just roll off the throttle a bit slower than usual, pull in clutch and then snick it up a gear (or two)

[rastuscat]

The BMW bloke in Mt Wellington reckons that you use the clutch to get the BMW elephant rolling, but only use the first 10 mm or so when shifting on the move.

It's about protecting the clutch from overcoming inertia. When moving off from a stationary position you have to overcome the weight of the bike and rider. When you are up and running, letting the clutch all the way in and out is actually unnecessary, as you aren't overcoming much inertia, given the momentum you already have.

Feathering the clutch is far worse for it than shifting with it still 90% engaged. Feathering is when you rev the guts out of it, and release the clutch far too carefully.

Just my thoughts. Back to my donuts.

[sugilite]

From 3rd up, I'm smoother on upshifts without the clutch. I've never been smoother on down shifts without it, so consequently rarely attempt that. As long as one is smooth, comes down to personal choice me thinks.

[MSTRS]

The purpose of the clutch is to disengage the engine from the gearbox. When shifting gear, this purpose is served by unloading the gears, allowing them to shift into the next meshed position. If judicious use of the throttle can achieve the same effect of unloading the gears, then why not clutchless shift?
Going up is easy, but few if any of us ever achieve a good result when going down.
(Did I just say that?)

[tigertim20]

I can see the attraction on a race bike to gain a tenth of a second per lap and Moto-X because I'm scared to release my grip on the bars lol but reckon for road riding there's no advantage.

+1.
its there, use it. you are just riding onthe road, and not racing? what advantage are you going to get.

the bmws1000rr has a quick shifter, and for upshifts, you do it without the clutch, but its been specifically designed for that. (and a nice bike to ride it was too)

[Metastable]

It won't do any damage if done right, either up or down. Up is easy.... however, for me down is difficult, but it can be done.

It has really nothing to do with racing... it is just a skill set. It can be used at the track or just having a nice relaxing stroll through the country side. I suck at downshifting without the clutch, because I can't practice on another person's bike. :D I think that is the key issue here no? It isn't that it doesn't make a difference for street riding. It's that we are too scared to screw up our precious bikes by practicing.

But ya, riding fast, riding slow.... up or down shifting can be done very smoothly without the clutch if done correctly. And, it can be done in a standard manual transmission car too.

BTW a couple of videos.... best one I have seen isn't here, on twist of the wrist II movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsz2lM7LsTE&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crZWHEG3N34

[tuska]

using the clutch has to reduce shock loads in the gearset/drive train....but i doubt they would be as bad as clutching up a wheelie....how many of you are guilty of that???:facepalm:

[onearmedbandit]

Honestly, this topic has been covered enough, in fact the links to the many threads are posted in the the 2nd post. So therefore, I'm locking this thread.

[TehPoopsmith]

Hi all

I have a question to pose. As a car driver primarily i have always used the clutch changing gears on any of my bikes as i would in the car.
But i have heard from numerous sources that on motorbikes it is fine to change without clutch, and from others that its fine to change up without but important to use the clutch changing down.


My question is what do YOU do, and if there is anyone out there who has built/ reconditioned bike gearboxes your input would be appreciated too.

[The End]

The general rule of thumb is that you can shift UP with or without using the clutch, however when you shift DOWN you must always use the clutch.

There are arguments for and against clutchless shifting, such as it is a faster way to change gears.


The answer is it makes the entire process of shifting smoother and quicker if done correctly. If you have ever been in a right hand corner and needed to shift mid corner instead of loosening your grip on the handlebar to grab the clutch just roll off the throttle slightly and click the throttle up in the next gear without upsetting the bike. - http://www.2wheeltuesday.com/2009/09/how-to-clutchless-shifting-makes-you-faster-and-smoother/

The clutch is there, may as well use it...

[slofox]

It is quite possible to change gear without the clutch on a bike. Either up or down. Easier going up than going down though.

To go up, just flick the gear shift as you briefly throttle off. I did this a lot on the track in days of yore. Still do it from time to time if I can't get to the clutch for any reason (like trying not to fall off...)

To go down is a little trickier. You need to blip the throttle just as you flick the gear shift to match revs as best you can. Bit of an art this one.

I have no idea how good or bad this is for the gearbox but I figure that if it clicks through easily enough then you are probably doing minimal, if any, damage. In 44 years of riding, I have yet to have a gearbox fall to bits from doing this.

EDIT: Probably ought to note that I rarely shift without the clutch. As others have posted, it's there so use it.

[Skiwi]

My 2 cents

I always use it, however, I have riden a considerable distance without one (broken clutch cable out in the boonies) changing up is a breeze and not too hard on the bike if you let your revs die down. Changing down is rougher on the bike and requires good throttle control.

I agree with The End, for general riding (when you're not trying to shave milliseconds off a lap time) it's there, why not use it?

[nodrog]

I learnt that ZX636 gearboxes dont like clutchless downshifts and must be made from cheese. After splitting the case for the 3rd time to replace the gearbox I thought I'd better change my ways, so I went and brought a kwaka with a cassette gearbox.

[slofox]

I learnt that ZX636 gearboxes must be made from cheese.

What...kinda cheese..? Camembert? Gorgonzola?

[nodrog]

What...kinda cheese..? Camembert? Gorgonzola?

Fucked if I know, it was already grated when I saw it.

[slofox]

Fucked if I know, it was already grated when I saw it.

GRATED! You coulda used it on a pizza...with anchovies...an' ...stuff...:crazy: It's been a while since I ate lunch...

[Sable]

Changing up clutchlessly is fine, but only in a racing situation. IMO

[BMWST?]

i use the clutch just about all the time...

[hayd3n]

ohh is that what that lever is?

[Subike]

sometimes I do sometimes I dont, depends upon how hard im pushing the bike.
I would say I use the clutch 70% of the time.
I have not yet broken a gearbox by not yet using the clutch.
Out of interest, I use to do clutch less gear changes in cars up and down successfully
I find cars are smoother than bikes to do this once you learn how.
Truckies very often do clutch less changes
Older trucks you only ever used the clutch to get you moving
Those who have ever driven a ACE, Tatra or a Austin Mastive will know what I mean

[Ender EnZed]

The clutch is there, may as well use it...

+1

It's not hard to get clutchless up shifts feeling smooth as (down shifts are trickier) but the benefit just isn't there for any potential risk of undue wear and tear. I've never found myself needing to change gear more quickly than I can extend my left hand fingers. And besides, I like using my clutch.

[onearmedbandit]

Despite what the nay-sayers believe, done properly clutchless changes both up and down can be done with no noticeable increase in gearbox wear. I've been doing them for 30,000+km on my current bike and have no gearbox issues whatsoever. It is a Suzuki mind you.

[ellipsis]

...if yer in tune and the night is right, its sometimes suits to slip it in and out with ease without any digital interference whatsoever...but sometimes the box just gets all tight and you have to go back to digital manipulation...its just life, as we know it jim...

[SMOKEU]

I always use the clutch to up shift from 1st to 2nd gear, and I always use the clutch for downshifts. For the rest of my upshifts I find it much easier and smoother to upshift without using the clutch.

Since I can shift significantly more smoothly without the clutch I don't think I'm doing the gearbox any harm as it never crunches or makes any strange noises when I do clutchless upshifts, and it shifts with very little effort.

[TrentNz]

sometimes I do sometimes I dont, depends upon how hard im pushing the bike.
I would say I use the clutch 70% of the time.
I have not yet broken a gearbox by not yet using the clutch.
Out of interest, I use to do clutch less gear changes in cars up and down successfully
I find cars are smoother than bikes to do this once you learn how.
Truckies very often do clutch less changes
Older trucks you only ever used the clutch to get you moving
Those who have ever driven a ACE, Tatra or a Austin Mastive will know what I mean

Ahh, my dad is an old truckie, only uses the clutch to take off and stop.
yes the clutch is their and yes you should use it, but at the end of the day when you don't you're saving wear and tear on your clutch plates etc.

[Ender EnZed]

Truckies very often do clutch less changes
Older trucks you only ever used the clutch to get you moving

Ahh, my dad is an old truckie, only uses the clutch to take off and stop.
yes the clutch is their and yes you should use it, but at the end of the day when you don't you're saving wear and tear on your clutch plates etc.

Yeah, but on old trucks the only other option is double clutching anyway.

It'd not really a fair comparison to a bike.

[gatch]

Upshifting with no clutch is a cynch. A brief throttle closure will make it work well. Unless the bike is cold.. Down shifting I will always use the clutch and blip the throttle to match rpm.

[Gremlin]

Here's a link to a thread with lots of links in it discussing the topic... tempting to lock this thread as well...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/140535-Clutchless-shifting

edit: Threads have been merged instead.

[ducatilover]

I used to do it all the time, shifting up/down everywhere and never had a gearbox issue.
I stopped doing it on my CB400 just because I figured there was absolutely no point in me doing it and never did on the 600 (has a terrible box anyway)

[Drew]

The purpose of the clutch is to disengage the engine from the gearbox. When shifting gear, this purpose is served by unloading the gears, allowing them to shift into the next meshed position. If judicious use of the throttle can achieve the same effect of unloading the gears, then why not clutchless shift?
Going up is easy, but few if any of us ever achieve a good result when going down.
(Did I just say that?)Bikes don't run syncromesh gearboxes. All gears are meshed all the time, but only every second gear is attached to it's spline all the time. With a "dog box" when you shift gears you are actually attaching a free spinning cog to the side of a fix one.

The extra wear of clutchless shifting is on the "dog", where the edge of the dog teeth get rounded a bit, and the slight taper on them wears down. Once that happens the bike will "jump out" of that gear repeatedly. Common on a few bikes, (RF 900, ZX6R to name a couple), and completely unheard of on most bikes. If this happens, avoid precision grinding and have it spark eroded. Grinding can bugger up the hardening because of the heat generated.

Ps, always use the clutch from first to second gears. Because of the extra selector barrel movement between them the shaft speeds can get a greater differential and the dog/cog will slap together hard.

[steve_t]

Ps, always use the clutch from first to second gears. Because of the extra selector barrel movement between them the shaft speeds can get a greater differential and the dog/cog will slap together hard.

Yep, I always clutch for 1-2 cos of that pesky N in between

[Drew]

Yep, I always clutch for 1-2 cos of that pesky N in betweenOn your bike, unless you're absolutely caning it, use the clutch. The gears have a five point contact on the ZX6 dogs, and from what I've heard, less than all of them actually make contact when the gears are engaged.

Jay Lawrence had to have his whole gearbox matched and 'back cut' (which is a steeper taper where the dog and cog engage), to stop it jumping back down a gear after changing.

[ducatilover]

On your bike, unless you're absolutely caning it, use the clutch. The gears have a five point contact on the ZX6 dogs, and from what I've heard, less than all of them actually make contact when the gears are engaged.

Jay Lawrence had to have his whole gearbox matched and 'back cut' (which is a steeper taper where the dog and cog engage), to stop it jumping back down a gear after changing.
Seems like the ZX6 Kwaks have always had weak boxes. Mine is prone to eating the dog (must be Tongan?) for 2nd and a few other little minor bits and bobs...like the shift drum and stuff...

[Drew]

Seems like the ZX6 Kwaks have always had weak boxes. Mine is prone to eating the dog (must be Tongan?) for 2nd and a few other little minor bits and bobs...like the shift drum and stuff...
Get a buggered one spark eroded, guy here in Wellington only charged me $150 to match my second gear dog and cog. Replacing it with OE new ones is just waiting for it to happen again.

[awa355]

On a sports bike gearbox, clutchless shifting works, ( we used to do it back in the 70's) but I wouldn't want to try it with the 'Agricultural' gearbox on my cruiser.

Don't Motogp bikes have a clutch? as well as the push button change mode?

[Drew]

On a sports bike gearbox, clutchless shifting works, ( we used to do it back in the 70's) but I wouldn't want to try it with the 'Agricultural' gearbox on my cruiser.

Don't Motogp bikes have a clutch? as well as the push button change mode?
GP bikes have clutches, they're required for down shift on the brakes.

The gearbox on your cruiser is just as strong as a lot of sports bikes. But it's a low revving twin, so it'll seem quite abrupt if you shift without the clutch, for no real gain.

[MSTRS]

Bikes don't run syncromesh gearboxes. All gears are meshed all the time, but only every second gear is attached to it's spline all the time. With a "dog box" when you shift gears you are actually attaching a free spinning cog to the side of a fix one.

The extra wear of clutchless shifting is on the "dog", where the edge of the dog teeth get rounded a bit, and the slight taper on them wears down. Once that happens the bike will "jump out" of that gear repeatedly. Common on a few bikes, (RF 900, ZX6R to name a couple), and completely unheard of on most bikes. If this happens, avoid precision grinding and have it spark eroded. Grinding can bugger up the hardening because of the heat generated.

Ps, always use the clutch from first to second gears. Because of the extra selector barrel movement between them the shaft speeds can get a greater differential and the dog/cog will slap together hard.

Yea, I sorta knew all that. Just easier to understand when put in terms of 'loaded' or 'unloaded'...under acceleration or engine braking, it is (next to) impossible to change gear. It is only when the clutch is used, or a quick flick on or off of the throttle, that you can slip into the next gear.

[steve_t]

On your bike, unless you're absolutely caning it, use the clutch. The gears have a five point contact on the ZX6 dogs, and from what I've heard, less than all of them actually make contact when the gears are engaged.

Jay Lawrence had to have his whole gearbox matched and 'back cut' (which is a steeper taper where the dog and cog engage), to stop it jumping back down a gear after changing.

Oh, cheers, good to know! :niceone:

[awa355]

GP bikes have clutches, they're required for down shift on the brakes.

The gearbox on your cruiser is just as strong as a lot of sports bikes. But it's a low revving twin, so it'll seem quite abrupt if you shift without the clutch, for no real gain.

I thought the motogp clutch may have been just for getting off the mark. the heel toe shifter on the cruiser certainly is not made for racing type changes.

[ducatilover]

Get a buggered one spark eroded, guy here in Wellington only charged me $150 to match my second gear dog and cog. Replacing it with OE new ones is just waiting for it to happen again.
I have a spare gear set, so I'm not overly worried. Never heard of spark erosion though, cheers man.

[Drew]

I have a spare gear set, so I'm not overly worried. Never heard of spark erosion though, cheers man.

I'd heard of it, but never given any thought to what it is or why it would be done, untill I was looking at $600 to replace two cogs in my gear box with brand new ones. Bloody gixxer motors being as strong as they are, it's hard to get a 6 speed out of a water cooled GSX-R750 when wreckers don't have rogered motors at all.

[MSTRS]

Bloody gixxer motors being as strong as they are, it's hard to get a 6 speed out of a water cooled GSX-R750 when wreckers don't have rogered motors at all.

Don't they all end up in TQs?
Bit like the old 1100 SACS being snapped up by the speedway sidecars.

[Drew]

Don't they all end up in TQs?
Bit like the old 1100 SACS being snapped up by the speedway sidecars.Those guys go for the 1100 motors and boxes, they only use two gears so the five speed will usually suffice.

They use oil cooled motors aswell, since they are easier and cheaper to get big power from with roller rockers instead of buckets and shims.

[sugilite]

I got all excited when I mis-read the title as crotchless sifting, damn :facepalm:

[SMOKEU]

I got all excited when I mis-read the title as crotchless sifting, damn :facepalm:

Wishful thinking?

[sugilite]

Oh , definitely wishful thinking!
This kind of thread has been done to death on KB, right up there with blipping. Short version, done correctly, up shifting without using the clutch won't kill your gear box, with the wear being so negligible, it's hardly worth discussing.

[SMOKEU]

This kind of thread has been done to death on KB, right up there with blipping. Short version, done correctly, up shifting without using the clutch won't kill your gear box, with the wear being so negligible, it's hardly worth discussing.

I've seen this exact discussion mentioned on other forums as well and everyone seems to have a different opinion on the subject.

[Drew]

I've seen this exact discussion mentioned on other forums as well and everyone seems to have a different opinion on the subject.That's sorta the point isn't it? Get a bunch of opinions and make an informed discision.

Opinions vary with mechanical knowledge for the most part I think.

[sugilite]

yep, opinions are like arseholes, every one has one :yes:
So when it comes to cases like this subject, I just go with what feels right and personal experience. Mine is I do it, it feels smoother. I've raced and ridden all sorts, from the latest and greatest, to old shitters on their last legs, and are yet to damage a gearbox doing it.

[SMOKEU]

That's sorta the point isn't it? Get a bunch of opinions and make an informed discision.

Opinions vary with mechanical knowledge for the most part I think.

There are so many wildly different answers from people with little, if any experience working with gearboxes and with no general consensus to either prove or disprove the question the OP was asking, I have to make that decision based on here-say and speculation.

[Drew]

There are so many wildly different answers from people with little, if any experience working with gearboxes and with no general consensus to either prove or disprove the question the OP was asking, I have to make that decision based on here-say and speculation.Or just give it a go and hope. There really is no extra damage being done to a gear box, by not using the clutch. Provided your not bending selector forks with the amount of pressure you're putting on the lever.

Touching the clutch makes no difference to the gear shafts speed differential, so there's an initial 'hit' anyway. If the throttle is off the dog/cogs can match speeds just as nicely.

[javawocky]

This guy makes some sense to me. Might help with a few facts about the gear box... http://www.abbiss.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60:thegearlever&catid=34:training&Itemid=55

Personally, on the track, clutchless is way way smoother, quicker and keeps the bike more stable as its over before the back shock knows about it.

On the road, hardly ever unless I am moving a long pretty fast, but I am a good boy so that doesn't happen often on the road :innocent: