Are we being ripped off?

[Rover]

Being the normal web surfing and used the Triumph wen site to compare Triumph Bonneville SE prices in different countries.
NZ = $15,800
US= US$8,600 = NZ$9,700
GB = 6749 pounds = NZ$12,600
Canada =Ca$9899 = NZ$11,800
I know GST and slightly higher shipping costs need to go on top, but right now it looks cheaper to pay the GST and shipping and import direct from the States.
$9700 for a SE + GST $1500 + shipping $1500 = $12,700 which leaves $3,000 left over.
I know the local guy has to make a profit, but hay so does the States guy.
Something doesn't seem fair?

[nzspokes]

Good luck with warranty.

[CHOPPA]

Being the normal web surfing and used the Triumph wen site to compare Triumph Bonneville SE prices in different countries.
NZ = $15,800
US= US$8,600 = NZ$9,700
GB = 6749 pounds = NZ$12,600
Canada =Ca$9899 = NZ$11,800
I know GST and slightly higher shipping costs need to go on top, but right now it looks cheaper to pay the GST and shipping and import direct from the States.
$9700 for a SE + GST $1500 + shipping $1500 = $12,700 which leaves $3,000 left over.
I know the local guy has to make a profit, but hay so does the States guy.
Something doesn't seem fair?

I dont think the distributors and dealers get a refund on the price they paid months ago for there bikes when our dollar gets stronger?

[DMNTD]

I dont think the distributors and dealers get a refund on the price they paid months ago for there bikes when our dollar gets stronger?

lol....yeah that would be nice!

[maxlev]

Good luck with warranty.

Does the quality deteriorate if local dealers can't snout the trough?


an example from the marine industry
(another recreational toy like a motorcycle)
Suzuki DF300 outboard
NZ 53k nz$ (imported after order placed)
USA 19k us$ = 25k nz$

[Katman]

Does the quality deteriorate if local dealers can't snout the trough?


Local dealers' margins on new bike sales can hardly be considered snouting the trough.

[Robert Taylor]

Being the normal web surfing and used the Triumph wen site to compare Triumph Bonneville SE prices in different countries.
NZ = $15,800
US= US$8,600 = NZ$9,700
GB = 6749 pounds = NZ$12,600
Canada =Ca$9899 = NZ$11,800
I know GST and slightly higher shipping costs need to go on top, but right now it looks cheaper to pay the GST and shipping and import direct from the States.
$9700 for a SE + GST $1500 + shipping $1500 = $12,700 which leaves $3,000 left over.
I know the local guy has to make a profit, but hay so does the States guy.
Something doesn't seem fair?

Its all about currency, its all about when the stock has to be ordered and the currency at that time. Its also all about very low margins. Im actually VERY glad Im not a motorcycle dealer anymore. Some margins are 9%, you cant survive on that with modern day overheads, even overheads from the past.
The Yanks have operated on cheap credit and high turnover / very low margins for years. Look at where they are now, getting deeper into debt. Many complex reasons but it shows that their credit and business mentality is very suspect. What is unfair is that they are dragging down the rest of the world with them.

[YellowDog]

Being the normal web surfing and used the Triumph wen site to compare Triumph Bonneville SE prices in different countries.
NZ = $15,800
US= US$8,600 = NZ$9,700
GB = 6749 pounds = NZ$12,600
Canada =Ca$9899 = NZ$11,800
I know GST and slightly higher shipping costs need to go on top, but right now it looks cheaper to pay the GST and shipping and import direct from the States.
$9700 for a SE + GST $1500 + shipping $1500 = $12,700 which leaves $3,000 left over.
I know the local guy has to make a profit, but hay so does the States guy.
Something doesn't seem fair?

It's just the currency going crazy. When the grobal prices were set, the then exchange rate made them all fairly even and unattractive to personal importers.

Best advice: Buy all the US or GB currency you can now. In six months time, you can my NZ$ back with it and make more money than you will have saved. You can then buy the cheapest option, which will be locally :yes:

[willytheekid]

Try NZ HP's 40% mark up! (not bike related ripoff...but STILL!!)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/5367077/HP-confident-Kiwis-will-pay-40pc-more-for-TouchPad

"The pricing discrepancy was due to factors including GST, freight, economies of scale and the costs of retail channels":facepalm:

....there bloody joking if they can justify that bullshit explanation!:tugger:
but then again its just the NZ retailers that will suffer in the end (shame), as anyone can order over the internet now days and circumvent the "economies of scale"...what ever THAT "actually" means :nya:

[nzspokes]

Does the quality deteriorate if local dealers can't snout the trough?



Well is it tuned to NZ gas? Headlights sorted for RH drive? And if something does stuff up thats warranty its a long way to return ship.

Good Luck with that.

[YellowDog]

Well is it tuned to NZ gas? Headlights sorted for RH drive? And if something does stuff up thats warranty its a long way to return ship.

Good Luck with that.

Many modern bikes have synchronous beams which are OK for both sides of the road.

Warrantee is international. If the local dealer wants the work, they can claim on the international warrantee. Not an issue.

What is an issue is going though the trouble and risk of importing a non-NZ spec bike. It may be better, it may be worse. To save a coupe of thousand dollars getting the bike on the road is madness.

IMO - You'd have to be saving much much more to make it worth while.

[Katman]

If the local dealer wants the work, they can claim on the international warrantee.

I think you'll find dealers don't want warranty work.

[Robert Taylor]

I think you'll find dealers don't want warranty work.

200% correct, its the very best way of losing money given the abysmal reimbursement rates and the even more abysmal flat rate times. Typical example 6 hours allowed to do a crankshaft change on a multi cylinder bike when it often takes double that amount of time, or more. Who pays for that shortfall? And if the dealer didnt sell the bike there isnt even a measly profit margin to eat into.
Its amazing how many people simplistically think they are being ripped off when the reality is often quite the opposite.

[Robert Taylor]

Try NZ HP's 40% mark up! (not bike related ripoff...but STILL!!)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/5367077/HP-confident-Kiwis-will-pay-40pc-more-for-TouchPad

"The pricing discrepancy was due to factors including GST, freight, economies of scale and the costs of retail channels":facepalm:

....there bloody joking if they can justify that bullshit explanation!:tugger:
but then again its just the NZ retailers that will suffer in the end (shame), as anyone can order over the internet now days and circumvent the "economies of scale"...what ever THAT "actually" means :nya:

Their explanation actually has more than a ring of truth to it, common theme that many small businesses are currently experiencing.

Are you aware of the percentage of small businesses in NZ that made a loss last financial year?

[scracha]

....there bloody joking if they can justify that bullshit explanation!:tugger:
but then again its just the NZ retailers that will suffer in the end (shame), as anyone can order over the internet now days and circumvent the "economies of scale"...what ever THAT "actually" means :nya:

Blame the distributers, not the resellers. Expensive running a business here - rip off banks, rip off utilities, rip off mastercard/visa, rip off eftpos. Combine with VERY strong consumer laws.

I'm sure resellers in this country could be as cheap as imports from other countries if they could compete on an even basis - you know,
a) have more than one distributer for a given item
b) not actually hold much stock or spare parts
c) circumvent GST like most consumer importers
d) tell the customer to basically get fucked if it breaks after 12 months

[Robert Taylor]

It is indeed popular to blame the official factory appointed distributors but again that is oversimplistic and ignores many complex reasons for the price distortions that make people think they are ripping off the consumers. In this distorted world most distributors balance sheets will not make pretty reading.

[scott411]

[QUOTE=YellowDog;1130121018]Warrantee is international. If the local dealer wants the work, they can claim on the international warrantee. Not an issue.

[QUOTE]

its not always, NZ has some of the best warranties around, and overseas markets tend to sell extended warranties up to our levels) and some of the strongest consumer laws as well, (with weak laws on imports) and as Robert says, dealers do not really want warranty work as it typically costs you money,

Also, esp with the US, their MRSP does not include delivery to the dealer, local sales tax, or sometimes even assembly, where as NZ prices have to be GST Incl unless otherwise stated,

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=YellowDog;1130121018]Warrantee is international. If the local dealer wants the work, they can claim on the international warrantee. Not an issue.

[QUOTE]

its not always, NZ has some of the best warranties around, and overseas markets tend to sell extended warranties up to our levels) and some of the strongest consumer laws as well, (with weak laws on imports) and as Robert says, dealers do not really want warranty work as it typically costs you money,

Also, esp with the US, their MRSP does not include delivery to the dealer, local sales tax, or sometimes even assembly, where as NZ prices have to be GST Incl unless otherwise stated,

You were up early Scott! Like me trying to keep on top of running a business in this crazy broken world?
What we also find a lot is that because of the crazy exchange rate distortions and myriad other factors we now spend an inordinate amount of time justifying the whys and wherefores to an increasingly skeptical public. Many who think that all businesses exist in NZ to rip people off. Sure there are many rip offs occuring in ALL industries but its unfair to tar everyone with the same brush

[willytheekid]

Their explanation actually has more than a ring of truth to it, common theme that many small businesses are currently experiencing.

Are you aware of the percentage of small businesses in NZ that made a loss last financial year?

A.This is NOT a small NZ company!..it a global corp!
B.40% mark up!....is Bullshit! Australia is getting them at U.S price's, why are we being screwed so hard?...as for "a ring of truth":facepalm::oi-grr:
C.This is EXACTLY why I pitty small businesses in NZ (and "try" to support them)


Blame the distributers, not the resellers. Expensive running a business here - rip off banks, rip off utilities, rip off mastercard/visa, rip off eftpos. Combine with VERY strong consumer laws.

I'm sure resellers in this country could be as cheap as imports from other countries if they could compete on an even basis - you know,
a) have more than one distributer for a given item
b) not actually hold much stock or spare parts
c) circumvent GST like most consumer importers
d) tell the customer to basically get fucked if it breaks after 12 months

Completely agree :yes:, and for the record, I NEVER pointed Blame at the retailers...in fact I used the word Shame.....because it IS a shame that small NZ businesses are the ones who will be hurt.

[Robert Taylor]

A.This is NOT a small NZ company!..it a global corp!
B.40% mark up!....is Bullshit! Australia is getting them at U.S price's, why are we being screwed so hard?...as for "a ring of truth":facepalm::oi-grr:
C.This is EXACTLY why I pitty small businesses in NZ (and "try" to support them)



Completely agree :yes:, and for the record, I NEVER pointed Blame at the retailers...in fact I used the word Shame.....because it IS a shame that small NZ businesses are the ones who will be hurt.

So what in your opinion ( or experience ??????????????????????) is a fair and reasonable markup for any business to be viable?

[Spearfish]

So what in your opinion ( or experience ??????????????????????) is a fair and reasonable markup for any business to be viable?

0% :gob:
the profit comes from goodwill or donation from the purchaser based on experience with the dealers.

No?:shit: oh well:facepalm:

[willytheekid]

So what in your opinion ( or experience ??????????????????????) is a fair and reasonable markup for any business to be viable?

Sorry you feel like the ONLY person in NZ to have struggled to run a business Rob.
But perhaps you should do some research into Hewlett Packard...ITS NOT A SMALL NZ COMPANY! (Is THAT clear enough for you??):facepalm:
I am well aware of how hard NZ businesses are doing it (and have been for many yrs!...been there before...14yr struggle)
My comment was about a HUGE GLOBAL CORPORATION! who can easily absorb some of these cost's, instead of passing them on to the consumer AND the small businesses who stock there products....and yes, 40% mark up IS to much for NZ consumers (who are also struggling to make ends meet & support there familys)

For the record...I actually AGREE with you regarding NZ small business, its a shame that you don't realise this.

[Robert Taylor]

Sorry you feel like the ONLY person in NZ to have struggled to run a business Rob.
But perhaps you should do some research into Hewlett Packard...ITS NOT A SMALL NZ COMPANY! (Is THAT clear enough for you??):facepalm:
I am well aware of how hard NZ businesses are doing it (and have been for many yrs!...been there before...14yr struggle)
My comment was about a HUGE GLOBAL CORPORATION! who can easily absorb some of these cost's, instead of passing them on to the consumer AND the small businesses who stock there products....and yes, 40% mark up IS to much for NZ consumers (who are also struggling to make ends meet & support there familys)

For the record...I actually AGREE with you regarding NZ small business, its a shame that you don't realise this.

So whats a fair markup?

[The Pastor]

I was told that if you dont markup at least 30% you wont make a profit.

But the evil companies make too much money.

[ukusa]

Being the normal web surfing and used the Triumph wen site to compare Triumph Bonneville SE prices in different countries.
NZ = $15,800
US= US$8,600 = NZ$9,700
GB = 6749 pounds = NZ$12,600
Canada =Ca$9899 = NZ$11,800
I know GST and slightly higher shipping costs need to go on top, but right now it looks cheaper to pay the GST and shipping and import direct from the States.
$9700 for a SE + GST $1500 + shipping $1500 = $12,700 which leaves $3,000 left over.
I know the local guy has to make a profit, but hay so does the States guy.
Something doesn't seem fair?

Parts prices are worse, sometimes as much as double the price here. There have been several threads on that topic recently & I think the conclusion from reading most of them is that one third of the biking population will support local sellers no matter what the cost, & the rest will buy overseas, leaving them more moolah to spend on other shit.
Buying a bike overseas is a little more hassle & risk than just buying parts, so is less common (plus you end up with a bloody mph speedo). I don't think resale is as good on an import either (a bit like on cars).

[avgas]

I was told that if you dont markup at least 30% you wont make a profit.

But the evil companies make too much money.
Sort of true.

As a general rule when I was in sales for very expensive bits of kit it worked like this.

15% is GST
7% covers expenses such as labor, support, shipping etc
So thats 22% before you make a single $.

Now to put this in perspective, the boxes I was selling were worth $2K-$25K
So imagine the mark up required if you sell a product is say under $1K

You would need 30% markup before you made a single $.

[Pogo2]

Just came back from the Gold Coast on Friday and I had a look at the bike shops while I was there. Five shops in total.

Really concentrated on backpacks as that was what I was after.
The backpack I wanted in NZ was $130 but was out of stock for the next 6 weeks. I priced the same thing in Oz and it was AUD$129.95 - so in fact dearer with the exchange rate.

Ended up buying a Ogio No Drag backpack for AUD$229. Have never seen them in NZ. Upon returning with said bag I see that there is a NZ agent and are available for NZ$199. So I got done over in that respect - however if it is a great bag that I would recommend to anyone.

Other stuff did not seem significantly cheaper unless I had earned and spent in AUD$. Suzuki M50 was about $8.5-9K vs about NZ$12-13k

Customer service was also interesting. Ranged from very poor to really good. So no different to NZ in that respect.

[breakaway]

Sort of true.

As a general rule when I was in sales for very expensive bits of kit it worked like this.

15% is GST
7% covers expenses such as labor, support, shipping etc
So thats 22% before you make a single $.

Now to put this in perspective, the boxes I was selling were worth $2K-$25K
So imagine the mark up required if you sell a product is say under $1K

You would need 30% markup before you made a single $.

Doesn't being a business allow you to claim back the GST on new purchases?

[Spearfish]

And......
there is insurance
commercial rent so that includes the council rates, building maintenance etc
staff
keeping up "good will" to customers often at a loss
advertising is farken expensive but also includes sponsorships
currency exchange fees that some banks charge
Accounting fees
Computer software and hardware - internet connections-web page maintenance-
tools- specialist tools are often disproportionately expensive.....
ACC
EMPLOYERS ACC
PAYE
PROVISIONAL TAX
FRINGE BENEFIT TAX
SOON TO BE IMPLEMENTED IF THE COUNTRY HAS A BRAIN FADE- CAPITOL GAINS TAX
Credit card companies feel off a layer
EFTPOS rental fees and regular upgrades

Some bike sales technicians are farken expensive to, aye Jimmy?
The owners mortgage against the family home to kick off the business.

coffee
tea
milk
bog rolls or nail clippers ;)
soap

[DR650gary]

Got a quote from a US company to supply an item, $US149 plus freight $NZ172.00 plus freight. Looked at the Europe site, 100 Euro inc vat $NZ164 plus freight. Europe site can't supply so they referred me to the OZ supplier, $A299 plus freight $NZ371.

I will buy from the US site and expect freight to be close to $US60 but I am still ahead.

I think we are being fitted by local, OZ and NZ suppliers due to restrictive trade practices.

Looked at a nice helmet in UK recently. Was carbon and about 250 pounds or $NZ500 ish at the time. Thought it was expensive until I got home.

The above numbers do not add up to a 40% margin for downunder traders.

[ukusa]

Looked at a nice helmet in UK recently. Was carbon and about 250 pounds or $NZ500 ish at the time. Thought it was expensive until I got home.

yep, looking at a new Arai at the moment, seen on trademe selling for NZ$1050, in Sydney for AUS$599 (marked down from $799). I'm in Sydney later on this month so may just have to have a close look.

[Taz]

200% correct, its the very best way of losing money given the abysmal reimbursement rates and the even more abysmal flat rate times. Typical example 6 hours allowed to do a crankshaft change on a multi cylinder bike when it often takes double that amount of time, or more. Who pays for that shortfall? And if the dealer didnt sell the bike there isnt even a measly profit margin to eat into.
Its amazing how many people simplistically think they are being ripped off when the reality is often quite the opposite.

Surely you could just tell the distributor that you're not doing any warranty work for that amount of re-imbursement?

[Katman]

Surely you could just tell the distributor that you're not doing any warranty work for that amount of re-imbursement?

And lose your franchise?

[jellywrestler]

And......
there is


coffee
tea
milk
bog rolls or nail clippers ;)
soap
Bog rolls how extravagant???
Just gather up old copies of the Yellow pages (tm) but you've got to use at least three sheets otherwise your fingers will do the walking...

[avgas]

Doesn't being a business allow you to claim back the GST on new purchases?
not on stock that you on-sell.

[avgas]

And......
coffee
tea
milk
bog rolls or nail clippers ;)
soap
Don't forget the porn for the engineers, the timtams for the accounts people and the private part wax for the sales people.

[avgas]

Bog rolls how extravagant???
Just gather up old copies of the Yellow pages (tm) but you've got to use at least three sheets otherwise your fingers will do the walking...
But then you end up with a plumber ad next to the plumbing.

[Robert Taylor]

Surely you could just tell the distributor that you're not doing any warranty work for that amount of re-imbursement?

If only it were that easy. The distributors do not set the flat rate times and reimbursement rates, the factories do. I may be a little qualified to confirm that as I worked as National Technical Manager for then NZ Yamaha distributor Moller Yamaha in the late 80s and early 90s. Prior to that working for a huge multi franchise dealer in London. Running the workshop and part of that included filing warranty claims to 7 different manufacturers distributors. All factories are tarred with the same brush in being very minimal when it comes to warranty reimbursement. The reality is if they were more liberal with warranty it would reflect in higher end prices to the consumer and dishonest dealers would be more predisposed to ripping off the system. Its a fine line.

[Robert Taylor]

Got a quote from a US company to supply an item, $US149 plus freight $NZ172.00 plus freight. Looked at the Europe site, 100 Euro inc vat $NZ164 plus freight. Europe site can't supply so they referred me to the OZ supplier, $A299 plus freight $NZ371.

I will buy from the US site and expect freight to be close to $US60 but I am still ahead.

I think we are being fitted by local, OZ and NZ suppliers due to restrictive trade practices.

Looked at a nice helmet in UK recently. Was carbon and about 250 pounds or $NZ500 ish at the time. Thought it was expensive until I got home.

The above numbers do not add up to a 40% margin for downunder traders.

The inability to bulk buy ( because we have so few people in NZ ) and the exchange rate distortion makes up a lot of the discrepancy

Also two margins distributor to dealer, dealer to customer. Notwithstanding that the US economy is in such a mess ( Putins comments are bang on ) that resellers are falling over themselves to firesale many lines of stock

The end result is that while its wonderful to be able to currently buy many goods offshore so cheap its actually putting people out of work ( our own countrymen ) That is NOT good.

The traditional business model is not perfect and the writing is on the wall that wholesale will become the new retail, in which case you wont be able to just drive a wee down the road to the convenience of your local, it wont be there anymore. Not even to try on clothing or helmets, with the full intention of buying such goods offshore. ( as some with no conscience do )

[DR650gary]

( as some with no conscience do )

I resent that a bit. My recent attempts at parts purchases have met with the "ex Japan" response. No stock was held in NZ for many parts, including cush rubbers. Why pay 100% plus more when I have to wait for them ex Japan plus pay freight when I can do the deal via the net and have the goods on my doorstep in a faster time as it turned out.

We are a global economy now and perhaps you are right, the day of the tiny town shopkeeper is over if that shopkeeper chooses to specialise themselves out of the market.

Before you criticise others, look at the clothes you are wearing, the furniture you are sitting on and even some of the food you ate in the last few days. Then count the number of local jobs that represented 15 years ago.

Move on and compete in the real world, not the fantasy one.

The industry that I work in is now very much internet based and I have to compete by providing a good service, albeit with a lower margin than what we had in the past. That service is also lacking in many retail outlets that i have visited in the past few purchase attempts.

Just my opinion, however, when advised that the $A299 price was out of line with the Europe price of 100 euros, the email came back with a price of $A149. Big change but I will go with it, although still a smidgeon more that the $US149 already offered as Oz is nearly local.

Cheers

[Digitdion]

The inability to bulk buy ( because we have so few people in NZ ) and the exchange rate distortion makes up a lot of the discrepancy

Also two margins distributor to dealer, dealer to customer. Notwithstanding that the US economy is in such a mess ( Putins comments are bang on ) that resellers are falling over themselves to firesale many lines of stock

The end result is that while its wonderful to be able to currently buy many goods offshore so cheap its actually putting people out of work ( our own countrymen ) That is NOT good.

The traditional business model is not perfect and the writing is on the wall that wholesale will become the new retail, in which case you wont be able to just drive a wee down the road to the convenience of your local, it wont be there anymore. Not even to try on clothing or helmets, with the full intention of buying such goods offshore. ( as some with no conscience do )

I totally agree that not being able to pop down the road and try something on could be on the way out. But hay, thats not much difference to what I have now anyway.In the south island theres bugger all choice. Like it or lump it! Times change. We all have to adapt to change, whatever that is. Some win some lose. i personally feel its time to get rid of the fat out of the sales process. Why should i pay over inflated prices because so many businesses are taking there cut of the pie.

[Robert Taylor]

I resent that a bit. My recent attempts at parts purchases have met with the "ex Japan" response. No stock was held in NZ for many parts, including cush rubbers. Why pay 100% plus more when I have to wait for them ex Japan plus pay freight when I can do the deal via the net and have the goods on my doorstep in a faster time as it turned out.

We are a global economy now and perhaps you are right, the day of the tiny town shopkeeper is over if that shopkeeper chooses to specialise themselves out of the market.

Before you criticise others, look at the clothes you are wearing, the furniture you are sitting on and even some of the food you ate in the last few days. Then count the number of local jobs that represented 15 years ago.

Move on and compete in the real world, not the fantasy one.

The industry that I work in is now very much internet based and I have to compete by providing a good service, albeit with a lower margin than what we had in the past. That service is also lacking in many retail outlets that i have visited in the past few purchase attempts.

Just my opinion, however, when advised that the $A299 price was out of line with the Europe price of 100 euros, the email came back with a price of $A149. Big change but I will go with it, although still a smidgeon more that the $US149 already offered as Oz is nearly local.

Cheers

Yes we are all hypocrites and I really hate that the clothes we mostly wear are Chinese, made with sweatshop labour by those doing the graft and being paid peanuts.

We ourselves are competing by good service and being the local. Its a major help that we sell products that require technical expertise.

But what really concerns me is where do all the people go that are getting laid off by purchases that for myriad justifiable or unjustifiable reasons are offshore?

Yes retail service is very haphazard in all industries, not only in NZ.

[scott411]

mmm, adidas new all blacks jumper NZ $199, in Adidas store in the UK £55, (aprox $110)

[Robert Taylor]

mmm, adidas new all blacks jumper NZ $199, in Adidas store in the UK £55, (aprox $110)

How much are the hookers Scotty?