Why electric vehicles aren't the answer

[tigertim20]

I’ve Been pondering this electric vehicle thing and looking at ‘refuelling’ which with vehicles currently on the market can take up to 13 hours, but even speed charging stations will take around 30 minutes, so how does that work (if electric vehicles become thenorm) when we are travelling around, and need to top up? If its going to take that long, you’ll never be able to get everyone charged up, congestion will become an issue due to those waiting for a charge.

Additionally, consider the impact on national power grids, most of you will recall times when New Zealand has had power shortages, you’ll remember the advertisements on the television about save power between 8 & 9PM every night, and the national attempts to reduce power consumption by 10 percent because we were at risk of overloading our national grid, well, how the fuck is the grid going to hold up with every man and his dog charging the electric car in the garage overnight? NZ isn’t the only country that has suffered from this problem, The USA has regularly had to endure rolling blackouts during, for example, heat waves, when everyone is using the air con in their homes, and the grid simply cannot cope, I’m sure the same issue exists worldwide to a degree. The grid will overload as it is, but add to that the added stresses of everyone trying to speed charge their vehicle if a 30 minute speed-charge (like is currently available in some areas) becomes readily available in your home, because let’s face it, you can’t go 13 hours between using your vehicle every day can you?
Even if we manage to upgrade the grid to cope with this demand, you run into yet another problem, not only is oil shortage a becoming issue, bit being environmentally friendly is also a major contributing factor to the electric car. Look at how NZ harnesses its power, Wellington is powered by wind, but you can’t create an excess wind to generate the shortfall no matter how good last nights’ vindaloo was. What about the areas that are Hydro powered, there are already hippy-types opposing the creation of further hydro projects, such as the on-going argument around the Wairau river in Marlborough, and the effect on the immediate geography surrounding the sites of hydro dams.
Fucked if we do and fucked if we don’t?
So, assuming some smart cookie doesn’t come up with a cheap and effective way of separating water and extracting the hydrogen in a cost effective manner any time soon, whats the answer?

Thoughts?

[craisin]

well if the base of fuel of the future has to be water let it be sea water to combat the rising sea levels they talk about

[TimeOut]

Charge them at night, when there's excess capacity and generation.
It's only going to get worse with more wind generation, if the wind blows at night that power has to be used, the same with a certain percentage of hydro.

Electric won't suit everybody but for those who do shorter trips from home and can charge on cheap power at night it'll be ideal, when the inital cost comes down.

[Wannabiker]

Use powerbands....:innocent:

[Deano]

Use powerbands....:innocent:

Close !!

Treadmills/cycles at fill up stations. You want to fill up your car, start peddling. Less load on the grid. (Probably feck all ?)

Treadmills in the workplace - you could power your computer etc yourself while you work.

It would go a long way to solving the obesity issue also.

[marty]

I don't know why we can't use solar and hydro energy to crack H2O, store it in tanks like LPG and just use it as a normal fuel. i saw on TV a private owned hydro plant in the south island, ultilising old hydro canals. electricity is not the whole answer, but it is part of it.

[YellowDog]

You'll just have 'Power Cell' swap stations. You know, like with your gas bottles.

$10 a refil will probably be more profitable than selling a tank load of fuel :yes:

[JimO]

latest top gear does a bit on electric cars, your better off with a diesel vw golf

[Berries]

Treadmills/cycles at fill up stations. You want to fill up your car, start peddling. Less load on the grid.
How about pedals in the car?


244152

[racefactory]

The answer will be nuclear fission, not electric I think.

Whatever it is, I'm looking forward to it. I purchased my current bike with the expectation that it will be my last petrol vehicle and I'll keep it until the time not too far from now where petrol prices will render our vehicles not economically viable for transportation and leisure use. I suspect at most we've got about 10 years left. Someone needs to invent something quick!

[Usarka]

Electric cars were popular in New York about one century ago.

We're dealing with a 100 year old problem that man hasn't been cracked, but in the interim we've landed on the moon, split atoms, genetically engineered food and animals, cured diseases etc.

Must be a tricky one.

[avgas]

Electric cars were popular in New York about one century ago.
Yep. Back then electric cars out numbered petrol ones.

I could comment more in this thread. But I am curious as to what the common man think about electric automobiles.

:drinkup::corn::innocent:

[bogan]

You're looking at it a bit wrong, the question is not 'Are electric vehicles better than petrol ones?', it is 'What is the best alternative?' Because the dinsosaur juice is running out, we need to get a head start on the alternatives and build up the technology/production/infrastructure now, so we don't go back to the stone age when petrol etc runs out. Starting now means we also get longer until the fuel does run out, and can leave it for more important applications, like motor-sport, and flight.

If we go renewable like hydrogen or batteries, the power generation infrastructure must be upgraded anyway. Hydrogen is quicker to recharge, but currently not as efficient I believe, and costly to store. Long distance vehicles may end up with a hydrogen fuel cells to provide on demand power, while still utilising their batteries for everyday short trips, or as yellowdog said use standard format batteries and swap them out.

[Headbanger]

Horses,bicycles, and trains.

Lets rip up the roads and plant grass.

[Matt Bleck]

I’ve Been pondering this electric vehicle thing and looking at ‘refuelling’ which with vehicles currently on the market can take up to 13 hours, but even speed charging stations will take around 30 minutes, so how does that work (if electric vehicles become thenorm) when we are travelling around, and need to top up? If its going to take that long, you’ll never be able to get everyone charged up, congestion will become an issue due to those waiting for a charge.

Additionally, consider the impact on national power grids, most of you will recall times when New Zealand has had power shortages, you’ll remember the advertisements on the television about save power between 8 & 9PM every night, and the national attempts to reduce power consumption by 10 percent because we were at risk of overloading our national grid, well, how the fuck is the grid going to hold up with every man and his dog charging the electric car in the garage overnight? NZ isn’t the only country that has suffered from this problem, The USA has regularly had to endure rolling blackouts during, for example, heat waves, when everyone is using the air con in their homes, and the grid simply cannot cope, I’m sure the same issue exists worldwide to a degree. The grid will overload as it is, but add to that the added stresses of everyone trying to speed charge their vehicle if a 30 minute speed-charge (like is currently available in some areas) becomes readily available in your home, because let’s face it, you can’t go 13 hours between using your vehicle every day can you?
Even if we manage to upgrade the grid to cope with this demand, you run into yet another problem, not only is oil shortage a becoming issue, bit being environmentally friendly is also a major contributing factor to the electric car. Look at how NZ harnesses its power, Wellington is powered by wind, but you can’t create an excess wind to generate the shortfall no matter how good last nights’ vindaloo was. What about the areas that are Hydro powered, there are already hippy-types opposing the creation of further hydro projects, such as the on-going argument around the Wairau river in Marlborough, and the effect on the immediate geography surrounding the sites of hydro dams.
Fucked if we do and fucked if we don’t?
So, assuming some smart cookie doesn’t come up with a cheap and effective way of separating water and extracting the hydrogen in a cost effective manner any time soon, whats the answer?

Thoughts?

as mentioned, battery swap's for your refueling question.

and as for strain on the power grid, how about if every roof top in NZ had a percentage of it's area covered in solar panels, and they are all wired into the national grid? Surley that'd work?

[BMWST?]

as mentioned, battery swap's for your refueling question.

and as for strain on the power grid, how about if every roof top in NZ had a percentage of it's area covered in solar panels, and they are all wired into the national grid? Surley that'd work?

not much solar energy at night

[george formby]

I think electric & hybrid vehicles are nothing more than a convenient marketing stop gap. They have no benefit over a modern diesel on the road, in production costs or recycling all those rare metals in them.

As already stated the biggest hindrance to alternative power for road vehicles is infrastructure. No body will invest until their is a standard & we are still a long way from that. It needs to be future proof too, to cope with development.

I have recently read about two very interesting methods of safely storing hydrogen, one in an ammonia lattice & the other in a nano thread lattice. Both have potential. And we have lots & lots of hydrogen.

Slightly off topic but, if the gummint allow private ownership of all the power companies in years to come we will all be screwed. Our demands are increasing across the board, use of electric vehicles of many types will grow massively but we will be screwed on the price of power. F&*^%d either way.

I'm getting a horse.

[Big Dave]

You'll probably pull into a 'battery station' and change the power pack. Same as filling up with fuel now.

Wait till you ride one. They will be great - mega torque.

[FJRider]

We're dealing with a 100 year old problem that man hasn't been cracked, but in the interim we've landed on the moon, split atoms, genetically engineered food and animals, cured diseases etc.

Must be a tricky one.

It's not really that problem, thats at stake ... many countries economy is based (read DEPENDS) on petroleum products/sales ...

[george formby]

as mentioned, battery swap's for your refueling question.

and as for strain on the power grid, how about if every roof top in NZ had a percentage of it's area covered in solar panels, and they are all wired into the national grid? Surley that'd work?

I've been banging on about this for years. Potentially a home grown industry creating jobs & knowledge to sell. At the very least if every household generated a small percentage of it's own power it would add up to a significant weight off the grid.
Again, it needs to be looked at long term for all it's benefits, not just it's cost v profit outcome.

[george formby]

You'll probably pull into a 'battery station' and change the power pack. Same as filling up with fuel now.

Wait till you ride one. They will be great - mega torque.

I think the future of "toys" is looking bright.

[bogan]

I've been banging on about this for years. Potentially a home grown industry creating jobs & knowledge to sell. At the very least if every household generated a small percentage of it's own power it would add up to a significant weight off the grid.
Again, it needs to be looked at long term for all it's benefits, not just it's cost v profit outcome.

Probably better to have a the solar panels in one sunny place, than dispersed around a city. Save a bit on the inverters and maximum power point trackers etc. Easier to put in reflectors and panels that track the sun too. Have you done any numbers on it? I wouldn't be surprised if a $500 solar panel took 5-10 years to pay itself off.

[240]

I have posted my thoughts on electric a while ago and stand by them.
You will essentially be sitting a a hulking great electro magnetic fucken field frying your gonads when you sling your leg over an electric motor.
Some electric vehicles actually carry warnings for pregnant females not to travel in them.
It is an issue.
To me hydrogen will be the answer.

[Big Dave]

I think the future of "toys" is looking bright.


But they probably won't be able to go over 20mph in case they suck all the air out of your lungs!

[Matt Bleck]

not much solar energy at night

true, what about an international grid? :D

[BMWST?]

the real answer is nuclear power whereby the byproduct is hydrgen.IS it fission or Fusion.Whatever it is it is the type of nuclear reactor we dont have at the moment.

[george formby]

We need to invest in Geothermal too.

[Motu]

You'll probably pull into a 'battery station' and change the power pack. Same as filling up with fuel now.

Wait till you ride one. They will be great - mega torque.

There will need to be a standard,world wide at least...and at the moment one isn't even considered. We had the Mitsubishi MiEV in at work a couple of months ago - it used 3/4 of a tank going from Pukekohe to Huntly,and so couldn't get back again without a recharge...and we had to fit a plug to do that. It needs a hoist and a forklift to change the battery pack,although it doesn't take very long to do it.But yeah,mega torque - it will leave the petrol version iCAR for dead.

I got a 2nd hand electric mower last week - 1800w and 18in cut,it goes through stuff that has my 5hp B&S struggling. This is my 3rd electric mower,I'm not going back to petrol.

[george formby]

I have posted my thoughts on electric a while ago and stand by them.
You will essentially be sitting a a hulking great electro magnetic fucken field frying your gonads when you sling your leg over an electric motor.
Some electric vehicles actually carry warnings for pregnant females not to travel in them.
It is an issue.
To me hydrogen will be the answer.

Pertinent point, particularly with mobiles under the spot light again. Car manufacturers are talking about a charging system which does not require a plug, same principle as charging your electric toothbrush.

Ultimately if health risks are confirmed the technology won't be binned, new technologies will be developed to protect us. Spacesuits will be really fashionable.

[Usarka]

Run them on chicken shit.

http://www.post-apocalypse.co.uk/Battletruck/screens/vlcsnap-441871.jpg

[Big Dave]

Run them on chicken shit.

Thus spake experience.

[bogan]

I have posted my thoughts on electric a while ago and stand by them.
You will essentially be sitting a a hulking great electro magnetic fucken field frying your gonads when you sling your leg over an electric motor.
Some electric vehicles actually carry warnings for pregnant females not to travel in them.
It is an issue.
To me hydrogen will be the answer.

In the same way that bikes now are like slinging your nuts over a fire? The harmful aspects can be contained in both cases. Difference is, it is more obvious when your nuts are on fire. I think research is required into the potential harm from electric vehicles, but it is worth noting, more power, does not equate to a more harmful field. I wouldn't be surprised if cellphones are far more harmful.

[tigertim20]

latest top gear does a bit on electric cars, your better off with a diesel vw golf
funnily enough, It was watching that exact episode late last night that spawned the train of thought in the first post!!

as mentioned, battery swap's for your refueling question.

and as for strain on the power grid, how about if every roof top in NZ had a percentage of it's area covered in solar panels, and they are all wired into the national grid? Surley that'd work?
even with battery swaps, the batteries have to be charged at a rate that could cope with a higher demand that petrol refuels, electric dont have the range of a petrol/diesel vehicle, so theyll need refuels more often, unless a dramatic advance is made in that area, so you STILL have the issue of where does that extra power come from? especially in summer when water levels are low and the hydro stations are concerned about capacity.
As for Nuclear, I dont see NZ allowing that to become a power source anytime soon

The cost and time commitment of increasing ourpower grid would be fucking enormous, where would the money come from, and I imagine it would take more than 10 years to outfit the entire country with enough upgrades.
-wouldnt mind hearing Jantar's view on this though

I have posted my thoughts on electric a while ago and stand by them.
You will essentially be sitting a a hulking great electro magnetic fucken field frying your gonads when you sling your leg over an electric motor.
Some electric vehicles actually carry warnings for pregnant females not to travel in them.
It is an issue.
To me hydrogen will be the answer.

interesting. did not know that

[Shadowjack]

I am finding these discussions regarding technology supplying more/cheaper (ha!)/sustainable energy quite interesting.
But, where it leads me to, is to suggest that we don't need more/cheaper/sustainable energy, so much as less people...many, many, many less people.

[BMWST?]

I am finding these discussions regarding technology supplying more/cheaper (ha!)/sustainable energy quite interesting.
But, where it leads me to, is to suggest that we don't need more/cheaper/sustainable energy, so much as less people...many, many, many less people.

how do you acheive that?

[racefactory]

I am finding these discussions regarding technology supplying more/cheaper (ha!)/sustainable energy quite interesting.
But, where it leads me to, is to suggest that we don't need more/cheaper/sustainable energy, so much as less people...many, many, many less people.

This is right and is what should be talked about more instead. Ignoring it is putting a band aid on the problem. No one is prepared to make a sacrifice and stop breeding collectively, it's always the other people that should isn't it? I think more people need to be educated about the benefits of anal intercourse.

If humanity can't act with solidarity then there needs to be either a war or some other human cataclysmic event. Either way... there is going to be huge famine in the world as our flawed game we've invented starts to collapse ever faster; that could keep things somewhat in balance with regards to population? Grim times ahead for sure.

[bogan]

how do you acheive that?

hmmm, maybe it would be a good thing if electric vehicles caused sterilisation after all! Oh well, I guess we could try and remove the shielding and increase the frequencies a few orders of magnitude so it might be harmful? :innocent:

[Dodgy_Matt]

I am finding these discussions regarding technology supplying more/cheaper (ha!)/sustainable energy quite interesting.
But, where it leads me to, is to suggest that we don't need more/cheaper/sustainable energy, so much as less people...many, many, many less people.

Didn’t the Germans, Rwandans and Gaddafi try that? :shit::shutup:

[Ntoxcated]

Logan's Run (http://plus613.net/image/25992) had it sorted

<a href="http://plus613.net/image/25992"><img src="http://plus613.net/page/display_thumb/25992/"></a>

[Shadowjack]

how do you acheive that?
And we got here from electric vehicles?

Good question: the Flippant part of me reckons that if we don't worry about that, we (as a species) won't have to worry about that - the planet will take care of the "how". Which won't be that pleasant. The Conspiracy Theorist part of me suggests that there's more than one reason we have the occasional celebrity buying frightfully big land packages in NZ.

Back to the question: for a start, constant growth as a basic tenet of economic/social practice will either become unacceptable, or, as above, your species will. It'll require a great deal more imagination and commitment than is by and large being currently demonstrated.

And, of course, the Logans Run solution - well, I'm far too old to accept that. Soylent Green doesn't do it for me, either.

[avgas]

I have posted my thoughts on electric a while ago and stand by them.
You will essentially be sitting a a hulking great electro magnetic fucken field frying your gonads when you sling your leg over an electric motor.
Some electric vehicles actually carry warnings for pregnant females not to travel in them.
It is an issue.
To me hydrogen will be the answer.
My recomendation is that you start your bike and measure the field coming off your existing bike, where the coil packs / CDI are.........right under the seat that your nads current sit on.......

You might stop riding motorbikes :blink:

[craisin]

As gayness is on the rise its a pity we cant harness the energy of gays bonking to charge batteries
You would be able to charge a lot of batteries in the Beehive:yes:

[p.dath]

With regard to charging; the simplest scheme I have seen is a simple battery swap scheme.

You go into the "charging station" the current battery is removed and a charged one installed. Then the original one is charged at a convenient time.

Also helps with controlling the load on the grid.

[240]

My recomendation is that you start your bike and measure the field coming off your existing bike, where the coil packs / CDI are.........right under the seat that your nads current sit on.......

You might stop riding motorbikes :blink:

The emf from a pulse cdi is almost immeasurable .
An emf field from a rotating electric motor is large and constant.

[Scuba_Steve]

how do you acheive that?

Mass assisted suicide???

[avgas]

The emf from a pulse cdi is almost immeasurable .
An emf field from a rotating electric motor is large and constant.
You might be pleasantly surprise. Most (good) electric motors these days have a nice shield around them. The Faraday cage then being tied to ground means the emf off them is minimal (they have to do this to reduce losses). The worse cases you end up with 3rd and 5th harmonics on AC and just "noise" low (say around the 10Hz) or high freq (in the kHZ) if its DC. No higher than the speaker in a car door. And seeing as a motor in a bike would typically be slung so that the rotor is somewhere around your shin and ankle. As the rotor is not fixed, it become difficult to shield. So you will find most of the emf will leak out there. But I would be more concerned about crushing my lower leg than growing a cancer on it.

Now back to you putting 10uV p2p humm near you gonads.......don't worry its not as bad as putting a cellphone in your pocket.

[bogan]

The emf from a pulse cdi is almost immeasurable .
An emf field from a rotating electric motor is large and constant.

And we could never survive with a large constant magnetic field present? :blink:

[avgas]

And we could never survive with a large constant magnetic field present? :blink:

Look at what happened on the event horizon :gob:
:corn:

[Hoon]

With regard to charging; the simplest scheme I have seen is a simple battery swap scheme.

You go into the "charging station" the current battery is removed and a charged one installed. Then the original one is charged at a convenient time.

Also helps with controlling the load on the grid.

Charging stations will become the exception. The average car is parked up 22 of 24 hours of the day. You will find that parking spaces will become the defacto place to charge whether it be your garage, work or parking building (or course there will be an added expense to use these). The days of pulling into the servo to fill up will only be for those that have exceeded the run time of the batteries in one trip or use a vehicle all day (services).

The load on the powergrid can be easily mitigated by utilizing existing smart systems where vehicles are charged off peak at a lower $$$ rate. Yes you could still charge your vehicle immediately if you wanted but you'd pay the higher kW/Hr rate of the time. This will encourage smarter refilling habits just like people now use fuel coupons and seek cheaper petrol stations.

[oneofsix]

Charging stations will become the exception. The average car is parked up 22 of 24 hours of the day. You will find that parking spaces will become the defacto place to charge whether it be your garage, work or parking building (or course there will be an added expense to use these). The days of pulling into the servo to fill up will only be for those that have exceeded the run time of the batteries in one trip or use a vehicle all day (services).

The load on the powergrid can be easily mitigated by utilizing existing smart systems where vehicles are charged off peak at a lower $$$ rate. Yes you could still charge your vehicle immediately if you wanted but you'd pay the higher kW/Hr rate of the time. This will encourage smarter refilling habits just like people now use fuel coupons and seek cheaper petrol stations.

There is an implied contradiction in those two paragraphs for me. Those who are doing longer commutes will want their vehicle to charge during the working day for the homeward trip and therefore there will be the load on the powergrid during peak times. And you can bet that those with shorter commutes will still want to charge whilst at work to. Strikes me as a bit of rose tinted publicity speak fro mthe electric car makers association (if there be one)

[240]

And we could never survive with a large constant magnetic field present? :blink:

Yes of course we can what I am saying is that the if the emf output is excessive this can have a definate negative health impact.

The emf from overhead power lines are a classic example.

If the level of emf radiation from an electric motorcycle is safe then so be it I will concede defeat.

Is there are stats supplied by manufacturers that confirm this then fair call.

Currently however http://planetgreen.discovery.com/food-health/electric-cars-hybrid-health.html

[bogan]

Yes of course we can what I am saying is that the if the emf output is excessive this can have a definate negative health impact.

The emf from overhead power lines are a classic example.

If the level of emf radiation from an electric motorcycle is safe then so be it I will concede defeat.

Is there are stats supplied by manufacturers that confirm this then fair call.

Currently however http://planetgreen.discovery.com/food-health/electric-cars-hybrid-health.html

From your link


Are the Health Risks Real?
The health risks are mostly conjecture. First, no one has proven that EMFs cause cancer. EMFs might. It's possible, but no one is really sure. Furthermore, even if some EMFs caused cancer, you'd then have to prove that the EMFs in hybrids and in electric cars cause cancer. Some people might be sensitive to EMFs, but that is an unknown factor as well. For safety's sake, pregnant women may want to consult a doctor before driving a hybrid or an electric car.

Basically they have not found definitive hazardous EMF values, I say values as I would be surprised if the hazardous feild strength was similar across different frequencies. And they also haven't compared levels and frequencies of EMF in electric (or standard) vehicles. That about sum it up?

I feel tempted to tape a compass to my feul tanks (both electric and ICE) and see what happens....

[Banditbandit]

Thoughts?

Yeah .. what's the question electric vehicles are trying to answer?

[240]

From your link



Basically they have not found definitive hazardous EMF values, I say values as I would be surprised if the hazardous feild strength was similar across different frequencies. And they also haven't compared levels and frequencies of EMF in electric (or standard) vehicles. That about sum it up?

I feel tempted to tape a compass to my feul tanks (both electric and ICE) and see what happens....

Will be interesting to see how things evolve aye.

[Swoop]

There is a very simple solution.

Harness the power generated at the local gym!
All those posers on exercycles (instead of an "actual" bicycle...) and still completing their eighth rep!

Simply plug in your vehicle at the local sweat-centre and they will charge it up for you.

Perhaps battery-farming (pardon the pun) some obese people who frequent KFC, etc, and chain them to the exercise machines? A win-win scenario!

[Hoon]

There is an implied contradiction in those two paragraphs for me. Those who are doing longer commutes will want their vehicle to charge during the working day for the homeward trip and therefore there will be the load on the powergrid during peak times. And you can bet that those with shorter commutes will still want to charge whilst at work to. Strikes me as a bit of rose tinted publicity speak fro mthe electric car makers association (if there be one)

Theres nothing to stop you charging during the day/peak hour. But as I mentioned you will have to pay more for that privilege. Others that don't need to charge during the day and have more sense than money will of course choose the cheaper option by recharging overnight at home. Sure the demands on the grid may be an issue but definately not a show stopper.

I do agree that in its current form (13 hrs charge for 1hr drive?) it aint going to be exciting anyone but as battery technology improves then it will continue to become more attractive. Once we start seeing 10 min charge times for 2-3hr drives and vehicles at the same price as petrol equivalents then we will see some change but until then like many others I have no qualms over pumping carbon into the atmosphere vs some electric car that costs twice as much with half the performance.

[Oblivion]

Theres nothing to stop you charging during the day/peak hour. But as I mentioned you will have to pay more for that privilege. Others that don't need to charge during the day and have more sense than money will of course choose the cheaper option by recharging overnight at home. Sure the demands on the grid may be an issue but definately not a show stopper.

I do agree that in its current form (13 hrs charge for 1hr drive?) it aint going to be exciting anyone but as battery technology improves then it will continue to become more attractive. Once we start seeing 10 min charge times for 2-3hr drives and vehicles at the same price as petrol equivalents then we will see some change but until then like many others I have no qualms over pumping carbon into the atmosphere vs some electric car that costs twice as much with half the performance.

Apparently what they are working on is a dump charging system. They are using a low voltage but high amp system to charge the battery. Haven't heard much about it though.

[davereid]

IMHO Electric cars are a FAIL for several reasons.

(1) They ARE NOT clean. The process of mining, and extracting the (rare) metals required for the engine and battery is all done with oil.

(2) They are NOT sustainable. There is simply not enough lithium in the world to repower vehicles electrically. Best estimates are there is enough lithium to make 300 million vehicle batteries, which is enough for about 1/3 of vehicles currently used.

(3) They are NOT emission free.
Its just that we have relocated the emissions to the power station. Every-time I see someone make that claim I want to throttle them. MOST of the worlds electricity is generated from fossil fuels. And the electricity grid is VERY VERY lossy. So the transmission of the energy from the power station to you car is very very inefficient.

FUTURE developments MAY solve these issues. But right now, the electric car is not the answer.

[Scuba_Steve]

FUTURE developments MAY solve these issues. But right now, the electric car is not the answer.

No Top Gear already came to that conclusion, the future of electric car (if there is one) is in dogems... Less insurance claims too :D

I think 1 thing alot of people don't know or have forgotten is the "electric revolution" has already failed 2 or 3 times previous. I see this time being no different, which is good, cause I also don't want to see my power bill skyrocket either!

[oneofsix]

No Top Gear already came to that conclusion, the future of electric car (if there is one) is in dogems... Less insurance claims too :D

I think 1 thing alot of people don't know or have forgotten is the "electric revolution" has already failed 2 or 3 times previous. I see this time being no different, which is good, cause I also don't want to see my power bill skyrocket either!

Bring back the Stanly Steamer
http://www.takefiveaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/4-stanley.jpg

[avgas]

the future of electric car (if there is one) is in dogems... Less insurance claims too :D
......which is also where road cars are going.....
http://www.coolthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/bumpercar3.jpg
Article here:
http://www.coolthings.com/tom-wrights-street-legal-bumper-cars/

[bogan]

I think 1 thing alot of people don't know or have forgotten is the "electric revolution" has already failed 2 or 3 times previous. I see this time being no different, which is good, cause I also don't want to see my power bill skyrocket either!

Oil used to be cheaper, and there used to be more of it. One day we won't be able to compare electric car performance to petrol for the masses, as there won't be enough petrol to go around! I think most people choose to forget that petrol is a finite resource.

I hope they sort out the hydrogen issues and get that as efficient as battery stuff is now, and we slowly go from petrol to hydrogen ICE (new cars or standard cars with conversion kits) to hydrogen fuel cells, with a smattering of electric vehicles along the way.

[jonbuoy]

I have posted my thoughts on electric a while ago and stand by them.
You will essentially be sitting a a hulking great electro magnetic fucken field frying your gonads when you sling your leg over an electric motor.
Some electric vehicles actually carry warnings for pregnant females not to travel in them.
It is an issue.
To me hydrogen will be the answer.

Thousands of people travel on electric trains.

[Scuba_Steve]

Oil used to be cheaper, and there used to be more of it. One day we won't be able to compare electric car performance to petrol for the masses, as there won't be enough petrol to go around! I think most people choose to forget that petrol is a finite resource.

I hope they sort out the hydrogen issues and get that as efficient as battery stuff is now, and we slowly go from petrol to hydrogen ICE (new cars or standard cars with conversion kits) to hydrogen fuel cells, with a smattering of electric vehicles along the way.

don't get me wrong I'm not saying oil is the ongoing answer or even good, I'm just saying electric is not where it's at. Hydrogen could be the answer? thats why I'm hopeful for the cella energy research they're packaging hydrogen in 2 ways.
1st. safe (no need for special holding tanks at minus centigrade, standard station pumps will do)
2nd. it's able to be used in standard cars without conversion.

as for oil being "finite" it probably is, but that is just guess work we don't even know where the stuff comes from at the end of the day & again it was supposed to be run out many times over so it could be round much longer than we think.

[oneofsix]

as for oil being "finite" it probably is, but that is just guess work we don't even know where the stuff comes from at the end of the day & again it was supposed to be run out many times over so it could be round much longer than we think.

IMO oil isn't as finite as the propaganda would have us believe. We can manufacture the stuff but whilst big money is invested in sucking it out of the ground oil manufacture will not be invested in. Whilst the manufacture of oil isn't invested in it will be too expensive. Same economics you see in the electronics markets with new toys (giveme giveme giveme).
The way I see it going is oil will start to be manufactured and then from that will grow the new fuel.
Hydrogen + Hindenburg, I can't see hydrogen having an easy road at the moment. BTW the Hydrogen was a lesser factor in the Hindenburg's loss of life than most credit.

[avgas]

Oil used to be cheaper
Actually its still cheap.

You know when Oil is expensive on peoples behavior. When it is too expensive to drive to get the groceries. When the car is ONLY used for long trips in the weekends.

I estimate this price someone around NZ$5-10/L.

I reckon we will get there around 10-20 years time.

Perhaps we will change our fuel before then. Analysts estimate that the substitution cost is around the NZ$4/L mark. At that point people will by alternative fuel cars - whether it is nuclear or electric.

[avgas]

Thousands of people travel on electric trains.
Actually to add salt to the wound millions of people travel on electric trains that have an induction based system.
Thats right a train that rely on EMF to run........much to 240's dismay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_(transport)

[oneofsix]

Actually its still cheap.

You know when Oil is expensive on peoples behavior. When it is too expensive to drive to get the groceries. When the car is ONLY used for long trips in the weekends.

I estimate this price someone around NZ$5-10/L.

I reckon we will get there around 10-20 years time.

Perhaps we will change our fuel before then. Analysts estimate that the substitution cost is around the NZ$4/L mark. At that point people will by alternative fuel cars - whether it is nuclear or electric.

you scary. You've just given the oil companies a price to aim for. like when the media started harping on about $2/L it seemed the oil companies set out to find the quickest way there and now there they are trying to find the next price break the public will accept.
NB: I do mean the oil companies and not the petrol retailers.

[bogan]

IMO oil isn't as finite as the propaganda would have us believe. We can manufacture the stuff but whilst big money is invested in sucking it out of the ground oil manufacture will not be invested in. Whilst the manufacture of oil isn't invested in it will be too expensive. Same economics you see in the electronics markets with new toys (giveme giveme giveme).
The way I see it going is oil will start to be manufactured and then from that will grow the new fuel.
Hydrogen + Hindenburg, I can't see hydrogen having an easy road at the moment. BTW the Hydrogen was a lesser factor in the Hindenburg's loss of life than most credit.

You mean biofuel? a guy at uni did some research on that, and I think he found if all the land in europe was converted to biofeul production, it would produce enough for only one of the countries. Or it may have been city/country, regardless, unless they GE algae or something drastic, biofeul is even less viable than batteries.

[oneofsix]

You mean biofuel? a guy at uni did some research on that, and I think he found if all the land in europe was converted to biofeul production, it would produce enough for only one of the countries. Or it may have been city/country, regardless, unless they GE algae or something drastic, biofeul is even less viable than batteries.

perhaps he forgot to tell Brazil, of course they didn't frig around with corn and algae but instead went for sugar as a feedstock, higher calorific value

[bogan]

perhaps he forgot to tell Brazil, of course they didn't frig around with corn and algae but instead went for sugar as a feedstock, higher calorific value

And what is their production like?

[oneofsix]

And what is their production like?

Brazil is the world's second largest producer of ethanol fuel and the world's largest exporter. Together, Brazil and the United States lead the industrial production of ethanol fuel, accounting together for 87.8% of the world's production in 2010. In 2010 Brazil produced 26.2 billion litres (6.92 billion U.S. liquid gallons), representing 30.1% of the world's total ethanol used as fuel.

Brazil is considered to have the world's first sustainable biofuels economy and the biofuel industry leader, a policy model for other countries; and its sugarcane ethanol "the most successful alternative fuel to date."

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

[bogan]

Brazil is the world's second largest producer of ethanol fuel and the world's largest exporter. Together, Brazil and the United States lead the industrial production of ethanol fuel, accounting together for 87.8% of the world's production in 2010. In 2010 Brazil produced 26.2 billion litres (6.92 billion U.S. liquid gallons), representing 30.1% of the world's total ethanol used as fuel.

Brazil is considered to have the world's first sustainable biofuels economy and the biofuel industry leader, a policy model for other countries; and its sugarcane ethanol "the most successful alternative fuel to date."

source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

That's a hell of a lot different from what I was thinking, 1% of their arable land allows them to run a 20% blended fuel for light vehicles + some for export, that is pretty damn good.

[racefactory]

I estimate this price someone around NZ$5-10/L.

I reckon we will get there around 10-20 years time.

Perhaps we will change our fuel before then. Analysts estimate that the substitution cost is around the NZ$4/L mark. At that point people will by alternative fuel cars - whether it is nuclear or electric.

I'm betting a hell of a lot sooner!! More like 4 years to $5/litre if global population and economic growth continues without too much of a hitch. At which point this forum won't exist anymore- well maybe except the 50cc scooter section.

We've all now got nice and used to the roundish figure of $2.00 a litre thanks to the emergency reserves released by the IEA recently but it's not going to be long at all now I think before we see the next round of 'Pain at the pump' headlines in the herald.

[avgas]

you scary. You've just given the oil companies a price to aim for. like when the media started harping on about $2/L it seemed the oil companies set out to find the quickest way there and now there they are trying to find the next price break the public will accept.
NB: I do mean the oil companies and not the petrol retailers.
Not really. OPEC learnt a lot of lessons in the 1970's and 1980's.
They know the substitution point, they will keep prices for as low as possible for as long as possible.
They are currently taking as much money in the long run as they can. And reinvesting this into stuff that will make them money in the future. BP is actually a world leader in solar panels now.
You might find this report I did a while ago on the matter interesting. Note it was written before the US went down the gurgler though. 244241

[p.dath]

IMHO Electric cars are a FAIL for several reasons.

(1) They ARE NOT clean. The process of mining, and extracting the (rare) metals required for the engine and battery is all done with oil.

Sounds reasonable. It's also possible a shift more towards hi energy capacitors may reduce the need to high density batteries.


(2) They are NOT sustainable. There is simply not enough lithium in the world to repower vehicles electrically. Best estimates are there is enough lithium to make 300 million vehicle batteries, which is enough for about 1/3 of vehicles currently used.

Agreed, Lithium based batteries is not the way of the future.



(3) They are NOT emission free.
Its just that we have relocated the emissions to the power station. Every-time I see someone make that claim I want to throttle them. MOST of the worlds electricity is generated from fossil fuels. And the electricity grid is VERY VERY lossy. So the transmission of the energy from the power station to you car is very very inefficient.

Power Stations are not that bad, especially the ones we have in NZ. Also NZ is heading towards more and more renewable energy, such as Wind, Hydro and Thermal.
The rest of the world is going to have to follow NZ's lead on this, and also shift to power production methods that involve less emissions.

[avgas]

I'm betting a hell of a lot sooner!! More like 4 years to $5/litre if global population and economic growth continues without too much of a hitch.
To be honest that all depends on what happens in USA, China and India.
If USA collapses, the price will stay still for a long time.
If China slows production, the price will stay still until they move again.
If Tata go full blown production, and everyone in India buys a car, petrol will go cheaper. If no one in India or China can buy a car, but everyone in the US can - price will go up. So pretty messy.

OPEC aren't stupid enough to shoot themselves in the face. They know the only way they can make money is in the long run. If we hit another GFC - they will need to keep the price low just so people can afford it.
Otherwise people will simply just walk. $3 in a GFC is like $5 when things are looking good.