Moto 3 bikes coming out of woodwork

[steveyb]

http://www.bianchimotorsport.com/moto3_spec_gallery_149.htm

€9900 to be confirmed.

also

http://reviewsmotorcycle.com/sherco-mr3-gp11-2011/

[Cleve]

http://www.bianchimotorsport.com/moto3_spec_gallery_149.htm

€9900 to be confirmed.

damn sexy until you see that humungous bloody pipe on the left side..

[Ivan]

thats bloody nice! I love the look of that one, the thing is the 125s will be gone but they will still be there in looks unlike how moto2 look so much differnt from 250s

I wonder if anyone will run a Tigcraft they been building these bikes basically for a long time even if they are 450 engines in the Tig's weve all seen what Jasons bike is like

[steveyb]

Will indeed be interesting to see if any teams/factories contract Tigcraft to supply chassis.

[crazy man]

Will indeed be interesting to see if any teams/factories contract Tigcraft to supply chassis.l dont think these teams would have any trouble building their own stuff! not realy any big deal with a big outfit

[Shaun]

thats bloody nice! I love the look of that one, the thing is the 125s will be gone but they will still be there in looks unlike how moto2 look so much differnt from 250s

I wonder if anyone will run a Tigcraft they been building these bikes basically for a long time even if they are 450 engines in the Tig's weve all seen what Jasons bike is like



I think Tigcraft are heavily invloved with Norton mate building there 1000cc MotoGP rig

[Ivan]

I think Tigcraft are heavily invloved with Norton mate building there 1000cc MotoGP rig

Awsome I have talked to Dave quite alot through email very cool guy he was helping me out with ideas on some bikes I thought of building before I decided to call it quits he is very clever and any bike he works on im sure will be a suiccess his moto2 bike chassis looks quite cool

[steveyb]

Someone has done some homework to find pics of the bikes.

http://www.usgpru.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10166

The KTM looks simply like their RC125 with a 4T motor in it. Choice!!

The Saachi engine looks the business, but I can't see how it will fit in a 125ish sized chassis. It looks too tall with all the injector gubbins on it.

The Bianchi bike looks cool, the Ioda bike looks shite!!

[Cleve]

Someone has done some homework to find pics of the bikes.

http://www.usgpru.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10166

The KTM looks simply like their RC125 with a 4T motor in it. Choice!!

The Saachi engine looks the business, but I can't see how it will fit in a 125ish sized chassis. It looks too tall with all the injector gubbins on it.

The Bianchi bike looks cool, the Ioda bike looks shite!!

porn for youngsters (and us oldies)!

[Ivan]

i like the ioda bike the bakker bike is a RMZ250 its ok, The KTM is there 125 frame i read it somewere that at the stage that photo was taken they used the 125 frame to test the engine etc i think a new frame is coming for them and apparently Yamaha have a bike in build

[Moooools]

I find these things so much more interesting than the 125 smokers.
Such cool design work going into them. (Apart from the massive exhausts they put on a few of them...)

[steveyb]

http://powersports.honda.com/md250h-nsf250r.aspx

[wharfy]

http://powersports.honda.com/md250h-nsf250r.aspx

Pretty cool looking - I assume the price is USD so about $15,000 NZ for the "budget" one :)

A quick search on the CR250X dirt bike
2012 model due in November will be priced at $12,495.00

It would be interesting to know how many 250 MX bikes are sold each year in NZ ?

[wharfy]

http://powersports.honda.com/md250h-nsf250r.aspx

OK Steve, you've campaigned a few 125/250 GP bikes - what sort of money do you reckon to maintain one of these for a season ?

[steveyb]

I would not like to be too definitive, and it also depends on your 'season'

If only NZSBK and some pre-season testing then with a new engine you should need only consumables. One should not need pistons etc such as in a 2T engine.

So, just the regular consumables: gas, tyres, engine oil, brakes, chains, clutch plates etc.

If you mean a complete year of racing club and NZSBK, after the club season you would be best to rebuild the engine prior to the NZSBK season, which will include valve stuff, crank kit etc. I think that this will be significantly more expensive than a 2T engine, but I have no idea on cost of this. The cost of fully rebuilding an RS125 engine with almost everything you need is about $1200 not including labour. Just a crank/piston replacement is about $800 or so. RS125 cranks are usually good for at least 2 seasons of our type of racing.

Ultimately, while I prefer 2T engines for racing applications, I think that the 4T bikes will bring more people into the sport simply because more people think that they know what they are doing with 4T engines and also because they simply are easier to use at a basic level. At the pointy end they are just as tricky to squeeze the last few HPs out of.

However, when they go tits up, the costs of fixing the engines will be somewhat higher, I think that is for sure.

E.g. I just siezed a piston on my 250. Luckily the cylinder came out of it OK and I could clean it up in the garage, so it has cost me a piston kit at about $350 or so. With a cylinder repair that would blow out to $850 or so, but if a similar failure happened on the 4T engine (e.g. a valve failure) I would hate to think about the cost espcially after I saw what happened to Scott Moirs 450 engine.....

Anyway, if it brings more bikes onto grids then let's get into it.

[Ivan]

the four stroke engines are not as bad as people think, Im full time motoxing now and my 07 450 was at 122 hours on the original motor in raced condition and it had been raced hard before I got it, he thing is these motors internals are built for this the valves are stronger everyone says these titanium valves wont last my brothers crf250 has titaniums as they were better lasting than his standered valves,

I think the main thing with these motors will be checking them over after race meetings oil and filter and checking the shim clearances for valves when neglected these motors can go pretty nasty but if well maintained itl last

its the old story if you look after it its bound to last a while

[Kevin G]

I would not like to be too definitive, and it also depends on your 'season'

If only NZSBK and some pre-season testing then with a new engine you should need only consumables. One should not need pistons etc such as in a 2T engine.

So, just the regular consumables: gas, tyres, engine oil, brakes, chains, clutch plates etc.

If you mean a complete year of racing club and NZSBK, after the club season you would be best to rebuild the engine prior to the NZSBK season, which will include valve stuff, crank kit etc. I think that this will be significantly more expensive than a 2T engine, but I have no idea on cost of this. The cost of fully rebuilding an RS125 engine with almost everything you need is about $1200 not including labour. Just a crank/piston replacement is about $800 or so. RS125 cranks are usually good for at least 2 seasons of our type of racing.

Ultimately, while I prefer 2T engines for racing applications, I think that the 4T bikes will bring more people into the sport simply because more people think that they know what they are doing with 4T engines and also because they simply are easier to use at a basic level. At the pointy end they are just as tricky to squeeze the last few HPs out of.

However, when they go tits up, the costs of fixing the engines will be somewhat higher, I think that is for sure.

E.g. I just siezed a piston on my 250. Luckily the cylinder came out of it OK and I could clean it up in the garage, so it has cost me a piston kit at about $350 or so. With a cylinder repair that would blow out to $850 or so, but if a similar failure happened on the 4T engine (e.g. a valve failure) I would hate to think about the cost espcially after I saw what happened to Scott Moirs 450 engine.....

Anyway, if it brings more bikes onto grids then let's get into it.

Hi.
I think you will find piston life will be about 5 hours max! the new YZF 450 with trick bits (GYTR) only get 5 hours from a piston when road racing them....(info from a front runner with one)
They will definitely be more expensive to run in competitive trim than the good old RS125.
Steve, talk to me for your pre 95 pistons (14mm)....you are getting ripped!
I have some in stock.

Kevin

[steveyb]

Righto tax dodgers. The following is an email sent to me, just now, from a guy in the UK who is right at the epicenter of racing, mostly in the 125 class, in the UK and Europe. Of course he has his own patch to protect, but what he says rings true with what the guys in the know in the USA are saying too.

I don't want this to turn into a two-strokes are dead and four strokes are the future thing because there is actually no arguement that logically supports either contention without making assumptions about agendas from suppliers and others rather than the arguements regarding the technologies themselves.

So have a read. I have left his name off the email for privacy reasons.

Moto3?
Nobody wants it.
Its something being pushed through by Honda, who have basically blackmailed Dorna with the threat of not supporting Moto GP, which would fall on its face if Honda withdrew.

At the Catalunya GP Alex Creville did 3 demonstration laps on one of the new NSF250s.
1st lap all the teams were on pit wall to watch it go by.
Lap 2 the pit wall was empty.
It was a little embarrassing for Honda!

Yes, the costs at GPs are stupid for a pukka 125 Aprilia and moto3 could be cheaper for them, just as Moto2 has become cheaper for the teams, compared to what it used to cost to lease the best 250 Aprilia’s.

(Note that he said teams running Aprilias, not other brands like Hondas, Yamahas, KTMs etc all of which would be competitive if the Aprilias were built to similar specifications)

But Moto3’s sound shite and they’re grenades waiting to blow.

Plus the costs etc of running at the GPs are a world away from normal national championship racing.

For National racing throughout the world Moto3 is going to increase costs possibly 5 fold.

For GP you need a spare engine, which Honda won’t supply, so that means buying 2 bikes at 20k pounds each, just so you can have a spare motor, (cos you can only have one bike per rider) then its 10k for each basic power-up kit.

I’ve been told that the proper GP kit will be 100k!

The Spanish Championship was supposed to be only 250 4-strokes next year, but they’ve just backtracked on that now and 125’s will continue alongside the 4-strokes, as virtually nobody would commit to racing the 4-strokes and it looked like they wouldn’t fill a grid.

The German IDM championship is remaining 125s and Moto3 bikes are allowed in, as long as there is a minimum of 10 entries for them.

We had a meeting with Stuart Higgs, Race Director of BSB, on Saturday at Cadwell Park and he’s guaranteed 125’s for a minimum of 3 years and it could well be longer.

BSB need a starter class for the kids and they know that they can’t fill a grid with Moto3 bikes, as not enough can afford to buy and run them.

4T 250’s can enter, to run alongside us, but by invitation only.
The 4T bikes have to be proper Moto3 bikes and nobody is allowed to enter with homemade bikes with the motoX 4T engine hand grenades!
But nobody is looking to buy the new Honda, as why would anyone spend all that money to be 4 seconds a lap slower than a 125!

Most people recognise now that the 4T 250’s are a big mistake by Dorna.
None of the teams at GPs want it and we have been told that KTM have now withdrawn their Moto3 effort after the constant changes of the rules by Dorna.
The whole thing is becoming a farce.

As far as National racing goes in Europe, 125 2-strokes will be here for a good few years to come, especially with the new 2-stroke ‘World’ Championship beginning next year.

Classes are going to be 50cc, 125cc and 250cc 2-strokes only and I think 7 rounds throughout Europe are already confirmed.
They’re having an opening event at Assen later this month, which unfortunately we can’t go to, as it clashes with the Silverstone BSB race.

Moto3 – I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole!

Check out the two stroke 'World championship' here:

http://www.european-2strokecup.com/

So, I'm sorry Ivan, but running around on a 4 year old MX bike at local races is many worlds away from national championship roadracing (even in NZ) and further away from European and world championship level. You can see that the Brits have already worked out (through experience, not just pique) that homemade bikes with MX engines will blow their race meetings apart, by blowing up all over the shop. Part of the reason for that is that all of the top running Honda 125's in the UK have engines in the 45-48 hp region, not the 38-42 hp ones we run here, so they are seriously fast. So a Moto3 bike will need to be seriously good to compete with that either at the same time as the 125's or separately, just to attract riders, teams or spectators given that they know what the 125 bike can do, and for less money and stress.

[RobGassit]

I watched the Honda do display laps at Phillip Island. It was a sorry sight and sounded worse. Imagine a GN250 in a bridesmaid dress and you may as well have been there.:facepalm:

[Ivan]

So, I'm sorry Ivan, but running around on a 4 year old MX bike at local races is many worlds away from national championship roadracing (even in NZ) and further away from European and world championship level. You can see that the Brits have already worked out (through experience, not just pique) that homemade bikes with MX engines will blow their race meetings apart, by blowing up all over the shop. Part of the reason for that is that all of the top running Honda 125's in the UK have engines in the 45-48 hp region, not the 38-42 hp ones we run here, so they are seriously fast. So a Moto3 bike will need to be seriously good to compete with that either at the same time as the 125's or separately, just to attract riders, teams or spectators given that they know what the 125 bike can do, and for less money and stress.

Never did I say a Moto3 bike was going to be better I answered your question about the motor life, going off a guess from having experience with motox engines and yes they are completly differnt to the moto3 engine, and no were did I say about running a 4 year old motox bike???

[scott411]

the four stroke engines are not as bad as people think, Im full time motoxing now and my 07 450 was at 122 hours on the original motor in raced condition and it had been raced hard before I got it, he thing is these motors internals are built for this the valves are stronger everyone says these titanium valves wont last my brothers crf250 has titaniums as they were better lasting than his standered valves,

I think the main thing with these motors will be checking them over after race meetings oil and filter and checking the shim clearances for valves when neglected these motors can go pretty nasty but if well maintained itl last

its the old story if you look after it its bound to last a while

450's and 250f's are far different creatures on the dirt, with the 250f's requiring double of not more the maitenece, we reccomend 50 hour piston changes for average to good club riders on a 250f, where its do it at 100-150 hours on a 450, good riders will do piston's at 25 hours and full valves at 50 on a 250f if they want to run in the top 15 in NZ champs, we do not change valves on 450's as a matter of course and they very rarely stretch,

and the road race bikes will stress a 250f more as they will pull higher revs for longer.

if you thought a 125 gp bike was alot to work on, a 250 four stroke version that is the smae speed will be more,

[jasonu]

Righto tax dodgers. The following is an email sent to me, just now, from a guy in the UK who is right at the epicenter of racing, mostly in the 125 class, in the UK and Europe. Of course he has his own patch to protect, but what he says rings true with what the guys in the know in the USA are saying too.

I don't want this to turn into a two-strokes are dead and four strokes are the future thing because there is actually no arguement that logically supports either contention without making assumptions about agendas from suppliers and others rather than the arguements regarding the technologies themselves.

So have a read. I have left his name off the email for privacy reasons.

Moto3?
Nobody wants it.
Its something being pushed through by Honda, who have basically blackmailed Dorna with the threat of not supporting Moto GP, which would fall on its face if Honda withdrew.

At the Catalunya GP Alex Creville did 3 demonstration laps on one of the new NSF250s.
1st lap all the teams were on pit wall to watch it go by.
Lap 2 the pit wall was empty.
It was a little embarrassing for Honda!

Yes, the costs at GPs are stupid for a pukka 125 Aprilia and moto3 could be cheaper for them, just as Moto2 has become cheaper for the teams, compared to what it used to cost to lease the best 250 Aprilia’s.

(Note that he said teams running Aprilias, not other brands like Hondas, Yamahas, KTMs etc all of which would be competitive if the Aprilias were built to similar specifications)

But Moto3’s sound shite and they’re grenades waiting to blow.

Plus the costs etc of running at the GPs are a world away from normal national championship racing.

For National racing throughout the world Moto3 is going to increase costs possibly 5 fold.

For GP you need a spare engine, which Honda won’t supply, so that means buying 2 bikes at 20k pounds each, just so you can have a spare motor, (cos you can only have one bike per rider) then its 10k for each basic power-up kit.

I’ve been told that the proper GP kit will be 100k!

The Spanish Championship was supposed to be only 250 4-strokes next year, but they’ve just backtracked on that now and 125’s will continue alongside the 4-strokes, as virtually nobody would commit to racing the 4-strokes and it looked like they wouldn’t fill a grid.

The German IDM championship is remaining 125s and Moto3 bikes are allowed in, as long as there is a minimum of 10 entries for them.

We had a meeting with Stuart Higgs, Race Director of BSB, on Saturday at Cadwell Park and he’s guaranteed 125’s for a minimum of 3 years and it could well be longer.

BSB need a starter class for the kids and they know that they can’t fill a grid with Moto3 bikes, as not enough can afford to buy and run them.

4T 250’s can enter, to run alongside us, but by invitation only.
The 4T bikes have to be proper Moto3 bikes and nobody is allowed to enter with homemade bikes with the motoX 4T engine hand grenades!
But nobody is looking to buy the new Honda, as why would anyone spend all that money to be 4 seconds a lap slower than a 125!

Most people recognise now that the 4T 250’s are a big mistake by Dorna.
None of the teams at GPs want it and we have been told that KTM have now withdrawn their Moto3 effort after the constant changes of the rules by Dorna.
The whole thing is becoming a farce.

As far as National racing goes in Europe, 125 2-strokes will be here for a good few years to come, especially with the new 2-stroke ‘World’ Championship beginning next year.

Classes are going to be 50cc, 125cc and 250cc 2-strokes only and I think 7 rounds throughout Europe are already confirmed.
They’re having an opening event at Assen later this month, which unfortunately we can’t go to, as it clashes with the Silverstone BSB race.

Moto3 – I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole!

Check out the two stroke 'World championship' here:

http://www.european-2strokecup.com/

So, I'm sorry Ivan, but running around on a 4 year old MX bike at local races is many worlds away from national championship roadracing (even in NZ) and further away from European and world championship level. You can see that the Brits have already worked out (through experience, not just pique) that homemade bikes with MX engines will blow their race meetings apart, by blowing up all over the shop. Part of the reason for that is that all of the top running Honda 125's in the UK have engines in the 45-48 hp region, not the 38-42 hp ones we run here, so they are seriously fast. So a Moto3 bike will need to be seriously good to compete with that either at the same time as the 125's or separately, just to attract riders, teams or spectators given that they know what the 125 bike can do, and for less money and stress.

I forwarded this to my mate in California who has been involved in small bore raceing for a number of years and here is his response.

As for the 2T versus 4T; in the USA we have the fortunate advantage the most people run stockish RS125 putting out 39 to 45HP. The CEV and BSB series are poluted with world GP level 125 machines (Aprilias and whatnot) and thus everyone has to run $20,000USD machines with some serious A-Kit type stuff. Here in the USA with the USGPRU series, you can do reasonibly well with a stock RS125 modified with less than $2,000 worth of parts (VHM head, Samba pipe and Ported Cylinder). We luckly avoid all the kit ignition stuff and the JHA, SEEL or Enurance Engineering type kit stuff that costs $5000 just to get started. I've seen 4 or 5 125 bikes with Ohlins or WP forks in 5 years of racing. Thus the racing is cheaper for dads to get there little riders up to speed and develop their skills without needing a full ride sponsorship and $50,000 a season to run. More or less, the racing here in the US is at a lower level than the typical European stuff. The speck series with the Moriwaki MD250 is even cheaper to run as you can't change anything other than the color of the bodywork, brake pads and tires. That and they pay out some serious cash for the top 3 riders.



OK so now that we've established the ground rules, a MD250 with $2000 worth of ported head, carb and camshaft can put out 42HP reliably. The cost for cases is less than 1/3 what RS125 cases cost. Pistons are $65 to $150 and not $250 to $300 and last a whole lot longer. I'm sure you've heard the saying that people buy horsepower and drive torque. The same is true for race bikes, HP looks good on a Dyno map but a bike that's putting out 14ft./Lbs of torque at 6,000RPMs is much easier to ride than one with little to no torque anywhere. The 125's are amazing learning tools for a young rider but after riding a 250 4T, it's just plain easier to ride. If I were to develop a 12 year old rider in the USA with a proper budget, I'd have him running an MD250 in the spec series for 2-3 years. I'd run him on a hot rod MD250 in the 125 class for 1 year and then I'd make him ride/race a decent 125GP bike for 1-2 years. At 15 we'd be practicing on a 600 machine and at 16 racing both 600's and the 125 or a 250GP all to increase the rider development. Here in the US we have Supersport AMA on the 600's and every kid who's racing from age 12 should aspire to make it into the top 10 in the AMA for a season. After that, it's a large matter of how much the kid (young adult at 17 or 18 now) really wants to continue racing and traveling and persuing the life goal of top level racing.



All that said, I think they're easy to ride race bikes that don't cost an arm and a leg. Yes at world GP level they'll cost an arm and a leg and yes they'll probably cost more for the typical privateer to run but at the lower levels I think they'll save money for most owners.



Food for thought.

[crazy man]

I forwarded this to my mate in California who has been involved in small bore raceing for a number of years and here is his response.

As for the 2T versus 4T; in the USA we have the fortunate advantage the most people run stockish RS125 putting out 39 to 45HP. The CEV and BSB series are poluted with world GP level 125 machines (Aprilias and whatnot) and thus everyone has to run $20,000USD machines with some serious A-Kit type stuff. Here in the USA with the USGPRU series, you can do reasonibly well with a stock RS125 modified with less than $2,000 worth of parts (VHM head, Samba pipe and Ported Cylinder). We luckly avoid all the kit ignition stuff and the JHA, SEEL or Enurance Engineering type kit stuff that costs $5000 just to get started. I've seen 4 or 5 125 bikes with Ohlins or WP forks in 5 years of racing. Thus the racing is cheaper for dads to get there little riders up to speed and develop their skills without needing a full ride sponsorship and $50,000 a season to run. More or less, the racing here in the US is at a lower level than the typical European stuff. The speck series with the Moriwaki MD250 is even cheaper to run as you can't change anything other than the color of the bodywork, brake pads and tires. That and they pay out some serious cash for the top 3 riders.



OK so now that we've established the ground rules, a MD250 with $2000 worth of ported head, carb and camshaft can put out 42HP reliably. The cost for cases is less than 1/3 what RS125 cases cost. Pistons are $65 to $150 and not $250 to $300 and last a whole lot longer. I'm sure you've heard the saying that people buy horsepower and drive torque. The same is true for race bikes, HP looks good on a Dyno map but a bike that's putting out 14ft./Lbs of torque at 6,000RPMs is much easier to ride than one with little to no torque anywhere. The 125's are amazing learning tools for a young rider but after riding a 250 4T, it's just plain easier to ride. If I were to develop a 12 year old rider in the USA with a proper budget, I'd have him running an MD250 in the spec series for 2-3 years. I'd run him on a hot rod MD250 in the 125 class for 1 year and then I'd make him ride/race a decent 125GP bike for 1-2 years. At 15 we'd be practicing on a 600 machine and at 16 racing both 600's and the 125 or a 250GP all to increase the rider development. Here in the US we have Supersport AMA on the 600's and every kid who's racing from age 12 should aspire to make it into the top 10 in the AMA for a season. After that, it's a large matter of how much the kid (young adult at 17 or 18 now) really wants to continue racing and traveling and persuing the life goal of top level racing.



All that said, I think they're easy to ride race bikes that don't cost an arm and a leg. Yes at world GP level they'll cost an arm and a leg and yes they'll probably cost more for the typical privateer to run but at the lower levels I think they'll save money for most owners.



Food for thought.l agree with that. dont think they would get 42hp out of the mx type engine but if everyones on the same type of bike who cares cheap good racing

[James Deuce]

l agree with that. dont think they would get 42hp out of the mx type engine but if everyones on the same type of bike who cares cheap good racing

Yes, but then they're not Moto3 bikes are they? That's just a homebuilt 4 stroke single cylinder club racer. If you were barking mad you could kit a relatively recent RS125 and enter GPs as a privateer. To enter Moto3 you have to buy Honda's product.

I think Dorna have screwed all the MotoGP classes. When Rossi goes to Superbikes (or worse for bike racing - goes rallying) he'll take his fan base with him, and even though he's not doing so well at the moment, that fan base is enormous. Jerry Burgess has said that he'll retire when Rossi does, so the premier king maker of the last 20 years, with his 35 years of racing experience leaves the paddock. That may be a good thing.

I hate to say it, but the most involving class this year has been 125s. Great races, personalities, and huge lead group battles. Moto2 is utterly uninvolving. There's no branding involved just esoteric race teams that have no market presence and despite the spec engines, there's two distinct groups - the crash or win merchants and the slightly more sober lot strung out over half a lap within 30 seconds of the start, and then you look at the lap times and realize that the average supersport 600 bike has some legs on them and isn't any more expensive to run. I reckon Shaun Harris could climb on a supersport 600 and piss off into the distance in a Moto2 race and he's out of practice. MotoGP is always entertaining because of the level of talent still attracted to it, but a Superpole session in Superbikes is more exciting than a MotoGP race.

Moto3 will kill the tiddler feeder class. It sounds horrific and even Honda can't make them reliable. It will be horrifically expensive. I can see Red Bull and KTM stealing prototype racing off Dorna over the next few years, partly to maximize their investment, but also because they know fans don't want to watch exploding MotoX bikes, CBR600s and modified street bikes battling for top honors in the Blue Riband classes of motorcycling. They want brand anchored rivalry, the best riders, and actual competition, not Honda one-make race series.

[Kickaha]

I hate to say it, but the most involving class this year has been 125s. Great races, personalities, and huge lead group battles.

It has been like that for several years, lot's more interesting than the "other" classes

[jasonu]

It has been like that for several years, lot's more interesting than the "other" classes

I watched all 3 Indianapolis GP's. Watched MotoGP in full (just because), got bored with Moto2 and turned it off after 8 laps and was somewhat interested enough to watch the whole 125 race.
BUT, IMO the best raceing I saw from that meeting, and I doubt NZ got it, was the Harley 1200s. Super close raceing, slides, backing in, bar banging, lotsa overtakeing, with a 4 and 5 way race long battle for the lead, you couldn't pick a winner until it was done.

[crazy man]

Yes, but then they're not Moto3 bikes are they? That's just a homebuilt 4 stroke single cylinder club racer. If you were barking mad you could kit a relatively recent RS125 and enter GPs as a privateer. To enter Moto3 you have to buy Honda's product.

I think Dorna have screwed all the MotoGP classes. When Rossi goes to Superbikes (or worse for bike racing - goes rallying) he'll take his fan base with him, and even though he's not doing so well at the moment, that fan base is enormous. Jerry Burgess has said that he'll retire when Rossi does, so the premier king maker of the last 20 years, with his 35 years of racing experience leaves the paddock. That may be a good thing.

I hate to say it, but the most involving class this year has been 125s. Great races, personalities, and huge lead group battles. Moto2 is utterly uninvolving. There's no branding involved just esoteric race teams that have no market presence and despite the spec engines, there's two distinct groups - the crash or win merchants and the slightly more sober lot strung out over half a lap within 30 seconds of the start, and then you look at the lap times and realize that the average supersport 600 bike has some legs on them and isn't any more expensive to run. I reckon Shaun Harris could climb on a supersport 600 and piss off into the distance in a Moto2 race and he's out of practice. MotoGP is always entertaining because of the level of talent still attracted to it, but a Superpole session in Superbikes is more exciting than a MotoGP race.

Moto3 will kill the tiddler feeder class. It sounds horrific and even Honda can't make them reliable. It will be horrifically expensive. I can see Red Bull and KTM stealing prototype racing off Dorna over the next few years, partly to maximize their investment, but also because they know fans don't want to watch exploding MotoX bikes, CBR600s and modified street bikes battling for top honors in the Blue Riband classes of motorcycling. They want brand anchored rivalry, the best riders, and actual competition, not Honda one-make race series.we live in nz unless you can make a rs125 look like a rugby ball your not going anywhere so why not make it cheap for new riders. get the first ship to spain if your looking anygood !

[steveyb]

What Jasonu says about the Harely1200 racing has merit, to a point. People do love close racing no matter what the machines are, to a point. But people also love the show, the politics (no matter that we say we don't, we do actually get off on it), the noise, the colour, the personalities (people and machines or should that be machinalities?), the pomp, the circumstance.

Much of that comes from having the best riders on the BEST machines. Having the best riders on bikes that really are not the best will, I am worried about, detract from the show and turn off those spectators who don't know a heck of a lot about the show, but simply love watching the best of the best.

What Jasons mate in the US says about the bikes, 250 and 125 is perfectly correct (But what James says is also true, the MD250H is not a Moto3 bike, but with a different engine it could be I suppose). We are in virtually the exact same position in NZ, hence my belief that there should be heaps more interaction between NZ and USA riders, exchange programmes and the like, as the racing levels are very similar. His analysis of the progression is also a good one. Due to our starting ages in NZ our riders tend to move onto 600 when they are 18 or so rather than 16 or so, but the 125, 250Mono, 125 again, 250GP/600, 600 top level progression is sound. If one wants to move to the top of the sport, then any other pathway is going to be second best. Unfortunately oftentimes funding dictates what riders are able to do, but also unfortunately, that is life ay?

However, we have had no 250 4T bikes out on the circuits in NZ yet. No one has bought an MD250H to try it out. I wanted to make my own bike, but lack of funding has precluded that effort. And it would not have been an MD250H. Moriwaki have spent many years developing that bike and engine package. They have not just taken an engine out of a CRF250 and bunged it into an RS125 chassis. There is a lot more to it than that. That development makes the bikes fast and reliable. Hence the Brits not wanting the homebuilt MXengined bikes out in BSB, because those engines simply will expire too soon.

Ultimately though, if the costs of running Moto3 bikes exceeds that of 125GP bikes in short measure, then the sponsors and teams will turn away and go do something else. If it doesn't, then great. I guess we have it now (well, we will see what actually pans out) so we should give it all the benefit of the doubt. I can't help thinking though, that the 125GP/Moto3 scenario will be very similar to the 500GP/MotoGP one in terms of cost and in terms of riders. Didn't Rossi say that there are many riders in MotoGP who would not have been able to ride 500? Or something like that. Will Moto3/Moto2/MotoGP develop a large pool of good but not great riders rather than a small pool of outstanding riders? Which is better?

I still contend though, that if Aprilia had not cut off their own noses by pricing thier bikes out of the reach of most teams and not making good bikes that could compete with Honda and KTM rather than smoking them (other than one lone bike that Ayoyama rode) then KTM and Honda and possibly Yamaha might well have stayed in the game and we might not be in this situation at all. Aprilia must be a bit gutted now with all those lease bikes they have now not generating any revenues.

[steveyb]

we live in nz unless you can make a rs125 look like a rugby ball your not going anywhere so why not make it cheap for new riders. get the first ship to spain if your looking anygood !

This comment is also dead right.

BUT it is not because we live in a one-eyed rugby centrist country. The situation is the same for any endeavour, sport or otherwise. If you want to be the best, you must go offshore to pit yourself against the best and against more of the best.

In my career of science, one must go offshore for a period at least to gain experince, to understand other ways of doing things and to gain new insights.

In any other sport, there are more good and better competitors offshore.

Why is it that all our best sports people are always away at worlds, at regionals, at coaching camps, on scholarships etc etc.

Bike racing is no different and I struggle to understand how anyone can think that it is.

[steveyb]

Further updates from Japan via USA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0vP4BgNoiw&feature=player_embedded

A few more on NSF250R, after finishing a Sugo round.

* NSF finished, 1st, 2nd, 6th, 9th, 11th, 15th, 20th, 3-DNF(crashed) out of 33.
* 240 built so far, 200 for Europe, 40 for Japan(sold out).
* For those bought the bike can buy a complete engine as a spare for about 800,000yen, for now.
* HRC may sell the complete engine for public, not finalized yet. The motor is mountable into NX frame (RS125 NX4) by modifying its front hangers only.
* The two HRC kitted bikes didn't need slipstreaming to pass 125s, which were faster in corners.
* The users started making a bigger CCed ram-air box as a first step.

So HRC are now looking at supplying engines on their own.
800,000 yen = NZD$12,200

[BMWST?]

What Jasonu says about the Harely1200 racing has merit, to a point. People do love close racing no matter what the machines are, to a point. But people also love the show, the politics (no matter that we say we don't, we do actually get off on it), the noise, the colour, the personalities (people and machines or should that be machinalities?), the pomp, the circumstance.



its more than that tho...why do i acknowledge that moto 2 is bloody good racing but i dont watch it....because there isnt a brand related to it.something to hang your hat on.....even if the brands dont actually mean much to me(aprilia,derby,mahindra in the 125s for instance) i somehow find them much more intereesting to watch than the insane moto 2 class.....

[steveyb]

its more than that tho...why do i acknowledge that moto 2 is bloody good racing but i dont watch it....because there isnt a brand related to it.something to hang your hat on.....even if the brands dont actually mean much to me(aprilia,derby,mahindra in the 125s for instance) i somehow find them much more intereesting to watch than the insane moto 2 class.....

Yes, I meant to say that too....

But then, we (as in the general public) get into F1 and that is based mostly on teams rather than factories, to a point (again).

Or is it that the F1 teams have the same sort of pulling power as factories, and hence why the new kids and minnows in F1 have little following while the Maclarens etc are household names, cos to all intents and purposes, they are factories. Thereby supporting your arguement.

I think that if V8 Supercars was team based and not factory based, very few people would be interested in it.

[gav]

Hmm, interesting I tend to follow the rider rather than the brand of bike they are on.
Terol is starting to make 125's a lil boring atm.
The ex 125 guys in Moto2, Marquez and Bradley Smith are great to watch and follow there progress. And in MotoGP do you stop following a rider because he rides another brand of bike? :blink:

[steveyb]

If you were barking mad you could kit a relatively recent RS125 and enter GPs as a privateer.


Interestingly enough, the Mahindra bikes are sort of kitted Hondas.

They are modified Honda NX4s from a privateer factory in Italy that builds a rotary valve system for the Honda engine.

They are going well enough now. A few teething problems over the years (as the Lambretta, Loncin, Italjet(??) and now Mahindra, but not bad now).

But I think that with the budget to buy the right kit parts, be replacing stuff regularly and with a good suspension tech and the right rider, it would be possible to qualify at most events. Not all of them cos at the fastest circuits you would simply not keep up, but the fast circuits are fewer and fewer now. But one of the problems with that idea is that most of the people that would contemplate it are teams with beginner riders who are in a development phase and not fast enough compared to WGP competitors. So with the disadvanatge of the bike, team and the rider they are all on a hiding to nothing. Chuck Terol on a good Honda though and he will qualify at most events, maybe even finish in the pack somewhere.

[NOID]

I love the 125gp bikes, but im a 4T thumper man !!!! should be a great series if it gets off the ground.