What's wrong with Ducati MotoGP bike?

[Cleve]

http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/08/08/the_trouble_with_the_ducati_desmosedici_.html

In depth analysis by David Emmett

[slowpoke]

Wow, great article, well worth the read.

[Shaun]

So ME and Stephen should be the developers for Ducati then, since we both got all the problems considered. When we moving to Italy Stephen?

[pritch]

So ME and Stephen should be the developers for Ducati then, since we both got all the problems considered. When we moving to Italy Stephen?

That was somewhat akin to my reaction when I read the article. I thought that both of you had mentioned problems with engine layout and frame material. Nice work!

To earn the big bucks though, you'd need to be able to actually solve the problems :sherlock:

[NZsarge]

To earn the big bucks though, you'd need to be able to actually solve the problems :sherlock:

Yeah true, wonder what the engineers in the Ducati team are getting paid, maybe not enough... :D

[Mental Trousers]

Very interesting. Good find.

[pritch]

Yeah true, wonder what the engineers in the Ducati team are getting paid, maybe not enough... :D

I like the implication that there's a lot of activity at Borgo Panigale though.
There'd need to be, the current publicity won't be quite what Marlborough had in mind. On the plus side, there sure is a lot of it.

[slowpoke]

To earn the big bucks though, you'd need to be able to actually solve the problems :sherlock:

Nah, Ducati are just like the rest of us: solutions are easy if you drink enough red wine, the hard part is remembering them in the morning.

[Mort]

I dont think they'll fix that Duke by the sounds of it...

Good read that - thanks

[Urano]

Yeah true, wonder what the engineers in the Ducati team are getting paid, maybe not enough... :D

actually not.
which is the same problem of ferrari.
"dude, you're working for ducati/ferrari now! what else do you want?? be thankful that you don't have to pay nothing for this honour..."

[SimJen]

Interesting read, i wonder if the alloy frame will make a difference? the current one looks a bit too extreme?

[Crisis management]

If you want the background to Emmets' article go to the Moto GP thread in the racing forum of ADVrider, Emmet posts under the user name Kropotkin and the chassis info was all gleaned from postings by Jinx (used with his permission). A couple of guys there work on the Moto GP teams and a few others have very inside knowledge.
No easy solution seems to be the general consensus as it looks like new chassis and motor design is required and that's a very big philosophical leap for a small company to take.

[Brian d marge]

So ME and Stephen should be the developers for Ducati then, since we both got all the problems considered. When we moving to Italy Stephen?

sorry have been head hunted by Royal enfield,,, ....we missed the hysterisis of the different materials ..was looking at that tonight, 7 different springs at full lean .....the feedback would have been way different to what anyone would be used to ....stoner ....must have just been ...sod it, or a very upright riding style ...
Stephen

[crazy man]

l think lt needs to go back to the tressle frame. it worked well for them in superbikes for a long time and did not seem as bad in motogp till it changed
apart from it was mph faster years ago when casy won it. l think the the engine rule
has killed the power of the engine to keep it alive for the year

[Maido]

sorry have been head hunted by Royal enfield,,, ....we missed the hysterisis of the different materials ..was looking at that tonight, 7 different springs at full lean .....the feedback would have been way different to what anyone would be used to ....stoner ....must have just been ...sod it, or a very upright riding style ...
Stephen

Couldn't help it, off topic but very talented.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsTIMxeO_ng

[Cleve]

l think lt needs to go back to the tressle frame. it worked well for them in superbikes for a long time and did not seem as bad in motogp till it changed
apart from it was mph faster years ago when casy won it. l think the the engine rule
has killed the power of the engine to keep it alive for the year

Trellis you mean? Did you not read why this is NOT an option?

[Cleve]

Trellis you mean? Did you not read why this is NOT an option?

Motomatters Website is currently down so can't copy and post David's comments re the old trellis frame and why they can't do that for MotoGP bikes.

[CHOPPA]

Motomatters Website is currently down so can't copy and post David's comments re the old trellis frame and why they can't do that for MotoGP bikes.

Basically there was so many welds that no 2 chassis felt the same

[Shaun]

sorry have been head hunted by Royal enfield,,, ....we missed the hysterisis of the different materials ..was looking at that tonight, 7 different springs at full lean .....the feedback would have been way different to what anyone would be used to ....stoner ....must have just been ...sod it, or a very upright riding style ...
Stephen


And Im gone to www.tryphonos.com and Triumph:Punk:

[wharfy]

And Im gone to www.tryphonas.com and Triumph:Punk:

http://www.tryphonos.com/

[Shaun]

http://www.tryphonos.com/

Thanks for the spell check buddy

[Mental Trousers]

Even the simplest solution (mounting the motor so that the front cylinder is almost vertical and the rear cylinder horizontal so the bike gets some weight transfer going) would need a complete chassis redesign. But then that would fuck up the airbox etc and wouldn't fix the problem with the feel that carbon fibre provides.

Quite a problem.

How is it that the Britten worked then?? It was very similar - short section carbon fibre chassis parts mounted to the front of the engine with the swingarm mounted directly to the cases. If anything the Britten had more Carbon Fibre in the chassis parts (CF forks, A arms and wheels) than the Ducati GP bike.

The genius that is a rather eccentric and obsessive Kiwi bloke in a shed eh.

[Shaun]

Even the simplest solution (mounting the motor so that the front cylinder is almost vertical and the rear cylinder horizontal so the bike gets some weight transfer going) would need a complete chassis redesign. But then that would fuck up the airbox etc and wouldn't fix the problem with the feel that carbon fibre provides.

Quite a problem.

How is it that the Britten worked then?? It was very similar - short section carbon fibre chassis parts mounted to the front of the engine with the swingarm mounted directly to the cases. If anything the Britten had more Carbon Fibre in the chassis parts (CF forks, A arms and wheels) than the Ducati GP bike.

The genius that is a rather eccentric and obsessive Kiwi bloke in a shed eh.


The BRITEN never Worked mate, it was Just Fukin FAST! A Stroud and Jason M rode the wheels of it, simple as that

[imdying]

How is it that the Britten worked then??Ahhh, it didn't?

[Mental Trousers]

The BRITEN never Worked mate, it was Just Fukin FAST! A Stroud and Jason M rode the wheels of it, simple as that

So at the IOM you couldn't ride the Britten as hard as a GSXR??

[DEATH_INC.]

So at the IOM you couldn't ride the Britten as hard as a GSXR??

Remember, you're talking about very different levels of racing. The Britten was cool for what it was, but it was no gp bike. It also had the Hossak front end that that article says have funny feel as well. Remember the trellis ducati frame works at wsbk level, but not moto gp. Similar to the old kwakka setup that worked at most national levels, but not wsbk.
The britten would prolly be sweet at the iom, the grip levels and stresses are way less.

[Shaun]

So at the IOM you couldn't ride the Britten as hard as a GSXR??

Correct if the GSXR was using quality shocks etc also.

It WAS A FANTASTIC bike, it WAS F------in Fast and STOPPED well and once semi up write, it GRUNTED out of turns and it looked HORN, but it was never BALLANCED to it;s best I reckon.

[Shaun]

Remember, you're talking about very different levels of racing. The Britten was cool for what it was, but it was no gp bike. It also had the Hossak front end that that article says have funny feel as well. Remember the trellis ducati frame works at wsbk level, but not moto gp. Similar to the old kwakka setup that worked at most national levels, but not wsbk.
The britten would prolly be sweet at the iom, the grip levels and stresses are way less.



No way mate, STRESSES at the TT are more than anywhere else apart from MOTOX on a motorbike if being ridden fast!

[Mental Trousers]

Correct if the GSXR was using quality shocks etc also.

It WAS A FANTASTIC bike, it WAS F------in Fast and STOPPED well and once semi up write, it GRUNTED out of turns and it looked HORN, but it was never BALLANCED to it;s best I reckon.

Thanks Shaun. Always wondered what it was like compared to something else.


No way mate, STRESSES at the TT are more than anywhere else apart from MOTOX on a motorbike if being ridden fast!

Hence shit like Steering Dampers breaking and the number of bikes that don't finish :weep:

[crazy man]

Motomatters Website is currently down so can't copy and post David's comments re the old trellis frame and why they can't do that for MotoGP bikes.l read it and l dont beleave it! ducati have made them way to long not to get a bike frame ( motor gp frame!) 15% the same as the other cause of the frame

[slowpoke]

Correct if the GSXR was using quality shocks etc also.

It WAS A FANTASTIC bike, it WAS F------in Fast and STOPPED well and once semi up write, it GRUNTED out of turns and it looked HORN, but it was never BALLANCED to it;s best I reckon.

I read an interview with Stroudy in which he mentioned the Britten taught him to ride slow. Compared to the GP and superbikes he rode at the time you could only ride it at 90%.

[wharfy]

Correct if the GSXR was using quality shocks etc also.

It WAS A FANTASTIC bike, it WAS F------in Fast and STOPPED well and once semi up write, it GRUNTED out of turns and it looked HORN, but it was never BALLANCED to it;s best I reckon.

I still on occasion go to Te Papa and have an over priced coffee just so I can sit and look at the Britten - It hasn't dated at all :love:

[Shaun]

I still on occasion go to Te Papa and have an over priced coffee just so I can sit and look at the Britten - It hasn't dated at all :love:



Lovely isn;t it. Shame it is not a FULL COMPLETE bike though:shit:

[DEATH_INC.]

No way mate, STRESSES at the TT are more than anywhere else apart from MOTOX on a motorbike if being ridden fast!
Um yeh, I meant cornering stresses/loads.
The stresses from the bumps and shit from a road coarse would be pretty horrendous in their own way :shit:

[Badjelly]

l think lt needs to go back to the tressle frame....

Brilliant idea! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trestle_table)

[wharfy]

Lovely isn;t it. Shame it is not a FULL COMPLETE bike though:shit:

Have you souvenired some parts from it !! :)

Whats missing ?

[codgyoleracer]

I read an interview with Stroudy in which he mentioned the Britten taught him to ride slow. Compared to the GP and superbikes he rode at the time you could only ride it at 90%.


Life is full of backjanded complimets. :-)

[Cleve]

Post Brno test interview with Preziosi
http://motomatters.com/interview/2011/08/16/filippo_preziosi_debrief_transcript_toda.html

[codgyoleracer]

Post Brno test interview with Preziosi
http://motomatters.com/interview/2011/08/16/filippo_preziosi_debrief_transcript_toda.html

I seem to re-call Honda saying much the same thing when they decided to develop the V5 format. "we did it because it was hard & forced us to imagine new solutions - and learn something"

fantastic idea (all you need is the $$$$$$$$$$)

[Cleve]

I seem to re-call Honda saying much the same thing when they decided to develop the V5 format. "we did it because it was hard & forced us to imagine new solutions - and learn something"

fantastic idea (all you need is the $$$$$$$$$$)

yes - but so sad that apart from a few years of 990 MotoGP we never got to see anymore of the V5 anywhere else!

[k14]

yes - but so sad that apart from a few years of 990 MotoGP we never got to see anymore of the V5 anywhere else!
Has it been confirmed that next year they are going to keep the V4 (in the honda) or go back to a V5?

[pritch]

As I understand it the rules stipulate bore dimensions that limit the number of cylinders to four?

[LBD]

What's wrong with Ducati MotoGP bike?

Um....the number on the front?

[DidJit]

Ducati building an aluminium chassis (http://motomatters.com/news/2011/08/18/ducati_building_aluminium_chassis_as_par.html) as a parallel project...

[Metastable]

I was reading the original article a few days ago.... very interesting. However going back to the Britten...
- Yes it is no GP bike.
- Yes maybe when it comes to cornering it doesn't have the ability/feel of other bikes (I don't know)
- Yes TT racing is a totally different beast with the bikes often more vertical as opposed to leaned over for long periods of time.

However, the fact that some dude from Christchurch could build a bike from Carbon Fibre strands (it wasn't even prepreg CF sheets), that was GOOD ENOUGH to kick ass at a high level of competition is even MORE amazing now, when CF is being readily used in all sorts of applications, yet the top level of motorcycling still doesn't have CF sorted out. I just think that the problems Ducati is having with CF just magnifies how awesome Mr. Britten really was.