London underground Explodes

[MadDuck]

Just seen CNN. The underground is closed....FARK thats huge.

[FROSTY]

where?? what station--will be like on a line or a junction--anyway ya look at it lotsa hurt commuters

[MadDuck]

where?? what station--will be like on a line or a junction--anyway ya look at it lotsa hurt commuters

They are showing an exploded bus at Tavistock Square. Its a bit garbled at the moment

[FROSTY]

liverpool street -to allgate station -4 explosions -busses rooves blown off

[MadDuck]

The ENTIRE underground is closed due to multiple explosions

[N4CR]

Ohhh fuck... anyone know if thats near Islington in London?

My sis lives there and takes the choob every day :(

[MadDuck]

Ohhh fuck... anyone know if thats near Islington in London?

My sis lives there and takes the choob every day :(

Main area seems to be Kings Cross, Liverpool St and Bank stations.

[Kickaha]

Just reading about it on one of the Yamaha forums http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4659093.stm

[Beemer]

Check out the news - bombings in London, the Underground has been closed. A bus was bombed in Tavistock Square, reports of fatalities unconfirmed at present.

Hope no one we know is involved, bit freaky though.

[James Deuce]

http://london-underground.blogspot.com/

Mooch and his wife are there at the moment too.

[k14]

Yep looks like terrorism again. Just had ph call from cousin over there, she took the train to work this morning and was off the train about 30 mins before explosions happened. Not sure how close she was to the explosions though.

[Dafe]

It was probably Jacques Chirac!

[Indiana_Jones]

Not on. my brother is just outside of Lodon, And I believe he takes the tubes :no:

-Indy

[Big Dave]

'The bastards that did it should be lined up and shot with pellets of their own shit' - Baron, G.

[GROOMER]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=14088

[Dafe]

Jacques Chirac must be real pissed about loosing the Olympics to England!

[Marknz]

feckin arseholes!!!

[Ms Piggy]

Shit just watching the news...terrible stuff!!

[WINJA]

OH NO IS THIS SERIOUS? MY MATES JUST GONE TO WORK THERE , AN EX DARBY ST BOY

[FROSTY]

darn that you lot--Where is Posh Tourer??

[FROSTY]

OH NO IS THIS SERIOUS? MY MATES JUST GONE TO WORK THERE , AN EX DARBY ST BOY
ya mean simon-Honda triple boy

[SixPackBack]

darn that you lot--Where is Posh Tourer??

He was in Norwich last nite!

[MadDuck]

darn that you lot--Where is Posh Tourer??

Exactly what I thought when I saw the news!. Anyone got Milkeys number to check?

YES WINJA IT IS SERIOUS! Those of us been to London will know that

[FROSTY]

Not on. my brother is just outside of Lodon, And I believe he takes the tubes :no:

-Indy
hopeing he aint on that tube matey

[Squiggles]

sh**, thts bad..... am watching...f***!

[WINJA]

HAS THIS GOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH G8 PROTESTS

[TwoSeven]

it was the tail end of rush hour, hence not many pople outside the stations. Half an hour earlier and those trains would have been shoulder to shoulder.

[Marknz]

HAS THIS GOT ANYTHING TO DO WITH G8 PROTESTS

no, this will be a terrorist attack timed for when most of the Brit Police are up north at the G8.

Fuckin' ragheads.

[N4CR]

Well my sis and her fiancee are fine. My sister is actually in the same area and has a nice 1.5 hour walk home as the transport system is down.

Her workmate got off a bus at the same station at the same time when one of the busses exploded... she saw it. No more details than that at the moment.

Ill keep you guys posted if i learn any good juicy insider tid-bits.

I hope everyones loved ones are ok!

[k14]

Fuckin' ragheads.

I prefer towel heads :whistle:

[crashe]

TV1 news reported 2 deaths and 90 injured at this time. :no:

[GROOMER]

I prefer towel heads :whistle:

If they're responsible for this, I prefer NO heads! Fuckers!

[parsley]

no, this will be a terrorist attack timed for when most of the Brit Police are up north at the G8.
Actually, the City of London has it's own police force - the Metropolitan Police.
London is used to this kind of thing. When I was a kid there we used to get bomb warnings all the time. There were bombs in Manchester when I was a student as well. The police are well trained for this stuff as are the hospitals.
We finally get the IRA to calm down and we get Al Queda, anti-capitalists and the French. Bugger.

[Indiana_Jones]

When is the western world going to open it's eyes? :no:

-Indy

[Mooch]

http://london-underground.blogspot.com/

Mooch and his wife are there at the moment too.

What a fucking morning here in London, Ang and I are ok. Five stations have been done and possibly 3 buses.

Not sure what to feel at the moment , possibly a bit shocked maybe a bit lucky and again sad for those killed and injured.

I've been going to a job agency thats 1 1/2 hours in the tube each way.
I had plained to be there at around 09:30 this morning. My journery involves 3 tube trains and 31 tube stations. Two of which were done.
For some reason my wife overslept this morning which is normally my queue to get up. She went of to work normally catching the bus. I'm almost ready to leave and she calls me to say there'd been one tube accident and to check the news for delays. Shortly after the news comes through about the rest of the stations. Ang's calls again , saying "Stay at home today" , She gets to work ok. Then the news comes through about the buses.Fuck .
I've decided to stay in today.

I need a beer !

Mooch

[Patch]

Some poor soul just rang my phone (while reading these posts) looking for Jesse in London. You could tell he's worried, poor bastard.

[Pixie]

Three friggin channels with this crap and Big Brothel on the other :mad: :mad: :mad:

[georgedubyabush]

I'm home just south of the river. Girlfriend just got back home. As I look out the window a couple of miles from our flat this is all going down. Frantic calling of friends but not many phones are working.

[crashe]

I just emailed a friend who is in and working in london... hope I hear back soon.

a friend was chatting to someone on a bus in london and the line went dead... they are worried as they cant contact them back.

[XP@]

Buggr! First time I've missed the news for months (was watching new Dr Who DVD)

[Marknz]

What a fucking morning here in London, Ang and I are ok. Five stations have been done and possibly 3 buses.

Not sure what to feel at the moment , possibly a bit shocked maybe a bit lucky and again sad for those killed and injured.

I've been going to a job agency thats 1 1/2 hours in the tube each way.
I had plained to be there at around 09:30 this morning. My journery involves 3 tube trains and 31 tube stations. Two of which were done.
For some reason my wife overslept this morning which is normally my queue to get up. She went of to work normally catching the bus. I'm almost ready to leave and she calls me to say there'd been one tube accident and to check the news for delays. Shortly after the news comes through about the rest of the stations. Ang's calls again , saying "Stay at home today" , She gets to work ok. Then the news comes through about the buses.Fuck .
I've decided to stay in today.

I need a beer !

Mooch

Pleased to hear you okay Mooch. Take it easy over there.

[Ms Piggy]

I just emailed a friend who is in and working in london... hope I hear back soon.

a friend was chatting to someone on a bus in london and the line went dead... they are worried as they cant contact them back.
Hopefully that just cos of overloading on the phone lines - I just tried calling my Mum, she's not in London but you just never know aye. I couldn't get through though.

[pyrocam]

My brother moved to london 2 months ago.
apparently. he missed being on the explodey thing because on a WHIM he decided to go to work early.

my parents are all 'OMFG its gods hand' or some crap but fuck. thats some hardout shit.

[Ms Piggy]

Chanel 3 seems to have better coverage. They have Sky News.

[FROSTY]

ggod to see ya ok mooch.
can we do a round up of our london kbers --Bob where are ya mate??
Posh--give us a holla matey

[bgd]

Not much work being done here at the moment, everybody is on the internet trying to get news. I'm at Canary Wharf and there is talk of evacuation. Not sure how those outside of London will get home as no transport is running. Those in town can walk. I'm on the bike so will be okay.

Mobile network is struggling to cope and the internet is running like a dog. I'm just glad not to be a user of public transport.

[crashe]

who else (KBers) is over there in London at the mo???

can we get a list up...
Mooch - is ok
Posh Tourer - ???
Bob - ????

who else????

[Ghost Lemur]

Bahahaha :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :killingme

Does anyone here not live their lives from mass media force feed dribble?

Bet you're sitting there listening to the rediculous questions from the so-called journalists like "what did you see?".

Bring on the carnage, mayhem, hypocracy, not to mention moral indignation(sp?).

Humans are grand creatures. And the world is a beautiful place.


Having now played devils advocate, my thoughts with those pommy KBers who have relatives in london. On the bright side 90 out of 18 million are pretty sweet odds.

[bugjuice]

for what it's worth
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=london+webcam&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

but the web is probably grinding to a halt..

[FROSTY]

Bahahaha :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :killingme
Bring on the carnage, mayhem, hypocracy, not to mention moral indignation
Having now played devils advocate, my thoughts with those pommy KBers who have relatives in london. On the bright side 90 out of 18 million are pretty sweet odds.
DUDE I'D REALLY APRCIATE IT IF YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP- :mad: :mad: -MY FUCKING FAMILY IS IN LONDON :weird: :weird:
iM WAITING FOR PHONE CALLS -IF INDEED THEY COME

[John]

Bahahaha :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :killingme

Does anyone here not live their lives from mass media force feed dribble?

Bet you're sitting there listening to the rediculous questions from the so-called journalists like "what did you see?".

Bring on the carnage, mayhem, hypocracy, not to mention moral indignation(sp?).

Humans are grand creatures. And the world is a beautiful place.


Having now played devils advocate, my thoughts with those pommy KBers who have relatives in london. On the bright side 90 out of 18 million are pretty sweet odds.
pathetic, take your shit elsewhere.

[parsley]

Having now played devils advocate, my thoughts with those pommy KBers who have relatives in london. On the bright side 90 out of 18 million are pretty sweet odds.
Yeah, I know, but it doesn't stop me worrying. If my family go to London they tend to go as a group - my sister certainly wouldn't go without the anklebiters, and probably my mum as well.

[Mooch]

Bahahaha :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :killingme

Does anyone here not live their lives from mass media force feed dribble?

Bet you're sitting there listening to the rediculous questions from the so-called journalists like "what did you see?".

Bring on the carnage, mayhem, hypocracy, not to mention moral indignation(sp?).

Humans are grand creatures. And the world is a beautiful place.


Having now played devils advocate, my thoughts with those pommy KBers who have relatives in london. On the bright side 90 out of 18 million are pretty sweet odds.

Auctally it's pretty fucken real here !. It's real nice to know that you wife is on a bus when reports are coming though about buses being blown up.
Go back and crawl under your rock :mad:

[MadDuck]

Bahahaha :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :killingme

Does anyone here not live their lives from mass media force feed dribble?

Bring on the carnage, mayhem, hypocracy, not to mention moral indignation(sp?).

Humans are grand creatures. And the world is a beautiful place.

Having now played devils advocate, my thoughts with those pommy KBers who have relatives in london. On the bright side 90 out of 18 million are pretty sweet odds.

Thanks for that insight Ghost Lemur.

That puts life back into perspective. 90 in 18 million may be funny to you but to some here with friends, family and loved ones in the area I (and I can only speak for myself) fail to see your sense of humour.

[crashe]

Bahahaha :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :killingme

Does anyone here not live their lives from mass media force feed dribble?

Bet you're sitting there listening to the rediculous questions from the so-called journalists like "what did you see?".

Bring on the carnage, mayhem, hypocracy, not to mention moral indignation(sp?).

Humans are grand creatures. And the world is a beautiful place.


Having now played devils advocate, my thoughts with those pommy KBers who have relatives in london. On the bright side 90 out of 18 million are pretty sweet odds.

Dude I have a good friend over there that I cant get hold of in London.
I just tried her home ph and all ph lines are over loaded..

so go away if you have nothing decent to say....

[parsley]

People still trapped in King's Cross tube station.

[Indiana_Jones]

They've fucked around with my motherland I am fucking pissed, if they do here, I'm gonna be very, very fucking dicked off. :mad:
It brings tears to my eyes.

sorry about the language

-Indy

[bgd]

Just popped out for a sandwich. Canary Wharf has been sealed off, no traffic. People are starting the trek home already. Plenty of police and security activity. In the cafe, which has a wifi point, people are working on laptops I assume having had to leave their buildings. There is a real feeling of siege out there at the moment.

Many of our people will be working from home tomorrow. Key people will be put up in hotels. We are going to kick off our batches early and I expect we will be heading off shortly as well.

I anticipate quite a bit of filtering on the way home today. Just hope the tunnel is open to allow me to get across the river.

[MikeL]

My Mum, elder brother and sister-in-law arrived in London yesterday...

[James Deuce]

My Mum, elder brother and sister-in-law arrived in London yesterday...

Fingers crossed for you Mike.

[pyrocam]

The news from here is as follows , 6 bombs including underground and 3 buses. 20 dead , lots and lots injuired.

Ang took the bus this morning to work which is a couple kms away.
I was due to be on my 1 1/2 hour tube ride to a recruitment place but Ang slept in which meant I slept in. I'm rushing to get ready and Ang calls me on the bus saying one tube station is having a problem and to check the news. I check the news but not much happening and continue to get ready. Ang calls again to say a couple more stations are having problems and more news are coming though. Tells me to stay at home.
What the TV a bit more and a couple of buses are blowen up. These buses are outside of Tube stations with hundreds of people around. (Bali style)
The transport networks have been shut down.
Ang has made it to work , at the moment the police are saying stay indoors. We live close enough for her to walk home so will sort out something later today.

Phone systems are overloaded at the moment in london.
If anyone would like me to contact any friends in London then put the numbers though and I'll try and get through . Many people will be stranded in London at the moment so best bet would be tonight.
Internet is still fine so contact me here.

Regards
Neal</pre>


cheers mate
to re-affirm. I just called vodaone. basically the phone systems are overloaded. Ive been trying to call my mum for an hour now (call .... error. hangup... call. repeat) just keep trying guys if your trying to get through. ive had 4 types of different errors so far. ive called near 120 times or so

[Mooch]

My Mum, elder brother and sister-in-law arrived in London yesterday...

If you have details on the Hotel they are staying I could try from here .
PM me with details if you wish.
London is a big place and it's the CBD that's been effected and again only the underground and a few squares. I'd say they'd probably be in bed sleeping after a long flight.

The same goes for any other Kiwibiker members trying to contact friends or family in london.

[MikeL]

If you have details on the Hotel they are staying I could try from here .


Thanks for the offer. I don't know where they were staying - it was only for one night then they are getting a hire car to drive to Cambridge. I don't know whether they would have had to use the tube to get to the hire car place.

[Big Dave]

They've fucked around with my motherland I am fucking pissed, if they do here, I'm gonna be very, very fucking dicked off. :mad:
It brings tears to my eyes.

sorry about the language

-Indy

My initial reaction too - Trouble is - that's exactly the way the sick fucks that do this shit want you to react. That or cower in terror. Either way can't beat them because they are so fucked up and irrational by any values we can imagine.
I don't what the answer is, but spoiling for a fight I suspect is not it. Assuming it's Al Queda - Martyrdom is the gateway to heaven for them. My son says nuke 'em, I say what about the millions of cool ones?

Ghost Lemeur - have you been sniffing glue?

[Mooch]

Thanks for the offer. I don't know where they were staying - it was only for one night then they are getting a hire car to drive to Cambridge. I don't know whether they would have had to use the tube to get to the hire car place.

Chances are they are driving to Cambridge and aren't haven't herd about London. Perhaps you could contact your mums travel company , from there you'll get the name of the car rental company who will be avaible to confirm the car has been picked up. If I can help from here , please let me know.

[Ghost Lemur]

Don't worry guys they'll catch the French bastards responsible (we all know it's retaliation over loosing Olympics).

BTW Big Brother's on 2. :msn-wink:

Not many George Carlin fans in here is there?

To explain my original posts a bit clearer. As I was going to pull it after a pm conversation with Frosty but as it's been quoted so much there's no point.

The laughter was at the fact that TV dictates something is news and the world follows. I'm against what happened as much as I'm against the attrocities that are happening in the Congo, and Uzbekistan, and Brazil, and dozens of other countries on a daily basis. But if it's not a western country, general population don't give a shit.

Everyone is someone's mother/father/son/daughter/friend/. Everyone is a beautiful individual who only exists for a brief period of time.

What makes one group of lives worth more than another just because of the city they're able to live in?

Humans will always be human, neither perfect nor evil, just human. Tis what makes them so interesting. Capable of both.

Sorry to those of you who were offended, as I agreed with Frosty's pm that I could have left my post for a few days till you had all had a chance to find out about loved ones, and could have then worded it better. My goal was to get people thinking, and I failed by timing and wording all I achieved was getting people defensive.

My Bad. :no:

[TwoSeven]

Well the phone network will automatically be scaled back - they do that to allow for 111 calls to get thru. Doesnt help when 20million people in and around london all try and use their phones at the same time. They'll come back to service overnight.

From what I can see from the news and comparing it to my old London IRA days, the appropriate services have done their job effectively and all is now ok or settling down.

The only seem to be small bombs, not like bishops gate of old. I'd expect maybe 40 odd causualties max (bugger), so at least not a major incident like the US.

Currently docklands railway, underground and zone 1 buses are suspended - so dont bother trying those out.

The heathrow express is going from paddington only.

THe main sites affected are:
aldgate,
woburn [tavistock] place (bus),
edgeware
kings cross

As far as I can see, all the bombs (except the bus) were on the circle line.

Over 200,000 people travel this line every day, so the likley hood of someone you know being on it, in location to the bombs is very very small. Most likely you'll be hearing stories of frustration as people get disrupted.

So best thing to do is what we used to do, chill and go have a beer until everyone whos supposed to gets in contact.

[Big Dave]

>>Not many George Carlin fans in here is there?

yes - but I didn't get it.

>>But if it's not a western country, general population don't give a shit.

Not everyone on KB has family and friends or cultural ties in Uzbekistan.

[parsley]

Just seen Tony Blair giving a statement while all the other leaders stood behind him. Well, I assume they were real but they looked like a bunch of waxworks. George looked particularly vacuous, but I suppose he didn't have an autocue in front of him.

[Ghost Lemur]

>>Not many George Carlin fans in here is there?

yes - but I didn't get it.

>>But if it's not a western country, general population don't give a shit.

Not everyone on KB has family and friends or cultural ties in Uzbekistan.

My comment on Mayhem gore etc, was a not very well done reference to comments George made during a performance around the time of the first Gulf War. Pointing out humans love of viewing others carnage misery etc.

I expect no one here has ties to Uzbekistan. It doesn't help that the atrocities are being commited by a US approved tyrant. Does that make the lives of those being tortured and killed less important?



News just said that an Islamic group called Al Quada Europe have claimed responsibility on one of the regular towel head websites.


Fuckin towel heads

WOW, spot the racist. Bet you'd love to see them brutally killed? That makes you a better more civilised person of higher morals than them how?

[bgd]

Latest news here is that they shot a suicide bomber at Canary Wharf.

Think that's it from this end as we are about to go. All tunnels closed so going to have to sort out an alternative route.

And it's raining...

[TwoSeven]

News just said that an Islamic group called Al Quada Europe have claimed responsibility on one of the regular towel head websites.

Fuckin towel heads

You know its racism that causes terrorism.

[Ghost Lemur]

No I hate everybody equally. So you can get fucked too.

:killingme :rofl: :rofl: :killingme


BURN


Lovely comeback. :Punk:

[v.ros`]

What a terrible attack... :no:

Hope none of the us have families who are affected by this attack.

[placidfemme]

those terrorists are a bunch of fucking assholes... they should go and crawl back into thier caves and then I hope they cave in on them :angry:

I've called my sister and she is ok... still havn't heard back from mates that live over there :(

Hopefully no-one here has family/friends affected by this

[John]

Update: latest death toll is 50 :(

[Bob]

ggod to see ya ok mooch.
can we do a round up of our london kbers --Bob where are ya mate??
Posh--give us a holla matey

Sorry, didn't realise there was a thread going on here. This is a link to the post I put in the "Biker News" page:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=14095

As I said in there, I work between Aldgate and Aldgate East - which is where one of the explosions happened. I reckon I got off the tube train (went in that way this morning as I thought the ROAD would be unsafe due to teh heavy rain) about 2 or 3 minutes before the explosion. Girl at work was even closer - she got off the train at Aldgate East... and a few moments later all the lights on the station went out.

In the above link is another link, which gives details of what happened in chronological order.

Current fatality total is, I believe, 37 and still rising - given the explosion on the bus, I think it is going to be a while before the real total is known.

[placidfemme]

And this is what happens when you take America's side and send your troops to a war that doesn't involve you... INNOCENT people die :( The number will proberly keep climbing... in the herald they reckon more bodies are still on the trains... but it is now a crime scene...

My heart goes out to all those involved and thier families :(

[Ms Piggy]

Update: latest death toll is 50 :(
Chanel 3 (Sky News) is saying 37 fatalities and loads injured.

Anyone heard from Posh Tourer yet???

[ajturbo]

my X is over there in Loundon........

[Waylander]

Fucking media. Understandable that all of those who have family and stuff involved want to hear about it and such. But come on!! Let the government find out what is going on before starting on guesses and shit. And for fuck sake let that guy lying in the hospital bed with blood all over his face get looked at and quit poking cameras and microphones in his face. Fucking media. Never help anything and only make such things seem worse than it really is.

[placidfemme]

Fucking media. Understandable that all of those who have family and stuff involved want to hear about it and such. But come on!! Let the government find out what is going on before starting on guesses and shit. And for fuck sake let that guy lying in the hospital bed with blood all over his face get looked at and quit poking cameras and microphones in his face. Fucking media. Never help anything and only make such things seem worse than it really is.

I agree. I'd be pissed if my face appeared on a newspaper cover... exspecially if I hadn't been able to contact my family yet... imagine if that guy was a kiwi and his mother walked into the dairy this morning for milk for her cuppa and saw that... she'd proberly have a heart attack...

[Waylander]

I agree. I'd be pissed if my face appeared on a newspaper cover... exspecially if I hadn't been able to contact my family yet... imagine if that guy was a kiwi and his mother walked into the dairy this morning for milk for her cuppa and saw that... she'd proberly have a heart attack...
And all the peaple on NZ1. They just got off a fucking what, 20 hour flight? atleast 18 hours from LA and they hear about this shit from reporters asking them questions?!?! What the fuck!! Gods I hope I never have any contact with reporters. Fucking vultures.

[John]

Fucking media. Understandable that all of those who have family and stuff involved want to hear about it and such. But come on!! Let the government find out what is going on before starting on guesses and shit. And for fuck sake let that guy lying in the hospital bed with blood all over his face get looked at and quit poking cameras and microphones in his face. Fucking media. Never help anything and only make such things seem worse than it really is.
yea and yet you types piss and cry when you dont hear about things on the dot. Go figure.

[Waylander]

yea and yet you types piss and cry when you dont hear about things on the dot. Go figure.
Reporting the news is one thing but getting in the way and saying random shit that isn't true and does nothing to help the situation is another.

[John]

Reporting the news is one thing but getting in the way and saying random shit that isn't true and does nothing to help the situation is another.
are you helping the situation by blurting out your intellegence while everyone else is worrying about there fucken families? no.

[scumdog]

Bahahaha :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :killingme


On the bright side 90 out of 18 million are pretty sweet odds.

Unless you or your family/friends are amongst those 90 - about time you grew up and stopped posting like a cretin.

[Lou Girardin]

It's a terrible situation. I'm amazed that so far the death toll is quite low, I hope it stays that way. The Emergency services are doing superb work.
The perpetrators of this are animals, you can't really describe them as human. But terrorism is as old as humanity itself. Fortunately it rarely achieves it's aims without wide public support and these people don't have that. Al Quaeda will be irrelevancy in years to come like Red Brigade, SLA etc.
One thing that did impress me from the reports was, although I don't like him or what he stands for, Tony Blair flew straight back to London. A stark contrast to a certain other world leader who took to his airplane and cowered in fear.
Stiff upper lip rules.

[Waylander]

are you helping the situation by blurting out your intellegence while everyone else is worrying about there fucken families? no.
I'm not bothering those involved who should probably be seeking medical attention rather than talking to reporters. Sorry but this is something I get sick of very easily. The 911 attacks were on tv all day every day on every channel for three weeks when that happend and all I could think is "fuck off and let peaple get over it" Showing the damage to peaple and property isn't gonna help anything.

[John]

I'm not bothering those involved who should probably be seeking medical attention rather than talking to reporters. Sorry but this is something I get sick of very easily. The 911 attacks were on tv all day every day on every channel for three weeks when that happend and all I could think is "fuck off and let peaple get over it" Showing the damage to peaple and property isn't gonna help anything.
Yes, what you only just arrived in 2005? We see it everyday, why do we keep seeing it because people keep watching it. end this.. make a new thread if it wants to be a media debate.

[crashe]

I have finally heard back re the two I posted about earlier last night.

The guy who was on the bus and the cell phone went dead while chatting to my friend. Is OK, he was told to get off his bus and run... so he must have been right near it all.

My friend who lives and works in London. I got a email back this morning.
"Yes today I was to go into Russell Squsare for a haircut - but all services have been cut so no haircut. Fortuneatly I was at a meeting in Roehampton - miles from the city centre... all a bit worrying though."

So I am pleased to have heard back about them both and that they are ok.

TV1 say 50 dead and TV3 say 37 dead.
I guess it wil be a while to get the correct total or dead and injured.

[Mooch]

This link is probably more up to date than the news in NZ.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4661059.stm

[TonyB]

I have finally heard back re the two I posted about earlier last night.
That's good news crashe. I'm trying to contact some freinds over there also. Looks like it will take a while to hear back.

And Ghost Lemur....mate I dunno what to say...your timing is appalling. Nearly everyone on this thread is trying to find out if personal freinds or family members are OK. This is neither the right time nor the right place to make your point.

[Paul in NZ]

As I grow older... I'm constantly dismayed by the actions of my species and especially the lengths to which they will go to assert dominance over each other for essentially intangible things.....

London will survive... It's survived worse than this and the bombers knew that so one can only assume that they had another aim... Goodness knows what that was and how it could be worth this price...

But that is cold comfort to those that have been injured or killed. It won't stop there will it. Families without fathers/mothers/siblings, countless hours of pain recovering and another generation of hate and fear... Honestly... I just feel so sad about this.... (not to mention furiously angry but I try to manage that bit)

If you have suffered loss in this or similar, point making actions, you have my deepest sympathy. I don't pray, I don't believe in God but I do believe in the human spirit and if it is possible to draw strength from the good will of others, then I open mine to you for you to take what you need of it... This is just so sad...

Even sadder....

We are now one step closer to the choice... To the hell these idiots seek to loose on us all... If I did pray, I'd be praying we step back, take a deep breath and flick the safety catch back on... There is enough sadness without that!

Paul N

ps - brain dead bitch of the year goes to the fucking stupid cow on TV last night right after the plea from the Lodon Police to the media NOT to get in the way or speculate until they had time to get in all the reports and find out what was happening....

She asked a local guy - "I know we were just asked not to speculate on what caused this but what do you think happened?"

I ask you.....

[bugjuice]

lol.. after a heart felt piece, and very well written, that 'PS' was off the bat, huh Paul?!

I think they just wanted to cause chaos. And that they did. I'm surprised they didn't go for bigger targets like the London bridge, or Big Ben etc..

[placidfemme]

lol.. after a heart felt piece, and very well written, that 'PS' was off the bat, huh Paul?!

I think they just wanted to cause chaos. And that they did. I'm surprised they didn't go for bigger targets like the London bridge, or Big Ben etc..

Or the Live Aide concert with how many thousands of people or the protesters at the G8 thingy...

But in a way, its shut down the transport system for 1000's of commuters and put fear into anyone else who wants to use the subway... and buses...

The things that gets me is... People in London did a march against the war in Iraq... how many people where there... thousands... and the terrorists attacked them... the innocents who marched to help them (kinda) and they blew them up... thats just dumb, now those 1000's that marched against the war are going to be all "kill the bastards". They've just gone and made more enemys... they're not that smart... they're just cowards and murderers

[bugjuice]

they should just build a huge wall round their country, get out the innocent kids (not the ones touting machine guns), and fill it with water..
How many other countries are causing this much shit?

[placidfemme]

yeah... one big swimming pool... would also erradicate (sp?) drought in the surrounding countrys... would make them richer... reduce world debt and famine... that sounds like a good idea

[Edit] This is post number 666 :devil2:

[v.ros`]

naah i reckon they should put this into practise:

Every country will not interfere with other countrys' problems...that way, eventually everyone will get off their as and survive for themselves, remove the bad leaders, solve their problems, earn money from their OWN resources, and that way, there will be no need for bombs like this...

Thats my other 2 cents.

[TonyB]

The things that gets me is... People in London did a march against the war in Iraq... how many people where there... thousands... and the terrorists attacked them... the innocents who marched to help them (kinda) and they blew them up... thats just dumb, now those 1000's that marched against the war are going to be all "kill the bastards". They've just gone and made more enemys... they're not that smart... they're just cowards and murderers Assuming this was done by Muslim Extremists, as I understand it, anyone who is not a member of their particular religious sect is an infidel (SP?) and therefore killing them is not a crime. To them, infidels are unimportant- it does not matter if you kill them- infact it gives you greater stature in the eyes of their god.

[v.ros`]

well actually , being a Muslim, that is wrong Tony B. those extremists might belive that but Islam doesnt state any of thay at all. In fact, Islam tells us to live and respect every other religion in this world. Thats why during the 6th century (when the Prophet was living in the middle east), he allowed every religion - including the Jews to live in middle east and he respected them.

The way I see it, they are killing innocent people in the west as a result of west attacking their country - Iraq and Afghanistan and I wont be surprised if Iran is next on the list. Now dont get me wrong, im not saying what they did was good, all I am saying is under their eyes, some innocent people were killed in their country thru the war and so they feel its perfectly legit to go and kill innocent in the west.

And Islam does state that you will go to Heaven ONLY IF you kill your enemies IN A WAR. Not killing innocent people like this or 9/11 style.

[bugjuice]

how about people just stop blowing shit up. Leave each other's countries alone, and stop fukin bickerin like school kids.

[MSTRS]

they should just build a huge wall round their country, get out the innocent kids (not the ones touting machine guns), and fill it with water..
How many other countries are causing this much shit?
But which country?? These lower-order bipeds are from all over, and include the sympathisers that dwell amongst us. In saying that, I agree with your sentiments.

[Waylander]

And Islam does state that you will go to Heaven ONLY IF you kill your enemies IN A WAR. Not killing innocent people like this or 9/11 style.
Heh, then they just claim Jihad and have a ready made excuse.

Killing innocents is never exceptable by any nation. Doesn't matter if it's government condonde or alledgedly allowed by god.

[Drunken Monkey]

And Islam does state that you will go to Heaven ONLY IF you kill your enemies IN A WAR. Not killing innocent people like this or 9/11 style.

Hence the guise of Jihad, to the extremists this is part of the Holy War.

As touched on by others, this is a result of foreign policy, specifically US foreign policy. Of course, now that its started, one can't be seen to back down lest other groups use the same methods to effect their own 'foreign policy'.

And to those who ask 'why', I put forward it is simply what anyone in a desperate and/or hopeless situation would do. Ordinary people in ordinary circumstances rarely (if ever) perform extreme actions. The US media has done a great job of de-sensitising the average Westerner to the situation in the middle east. However 'extreme' they are made to look, the average person is no different to you or I = they just want to go on with their lives in their own country without some friggen superpower bossing them around.
Unfortunately they are not rich enough or militarily powerful enough to protect themselves from US foreign policy. What do you do when you can't fight someone with 'conventional' methods - you use 'unconventional' methods, in this case upsetting foreign government by terrorising unprotected civilians.

I'm not condoning the action by any stretch of the word, just trying to help people understand.

[Drunken Monkey]

But which country?? These lower-order bipeds are from all over, and include the sympathisers that dwell amongst us. In saying that, I agree with your sentiments.

So what sets you apart from other lower-order bipeds?
With a comment like that, it can't be because you're more enlightened than them. Maybe you shave your pubes?

[Lou Girardin]

they should just build a huge wall round their country, get out the innocent kids (not the ones touting machine guns), and fill it with water..
How many other countries are causing this much shit?

But, which country?
Iraq? Iran? Syria? Afghanistan? George Dubya's 2nd home - Saudi Arabia?
As a commentator said this morning, this is not a nationalistic group causing these attacks. Al Qaeda should be regarded as a virus infecting others.

[Ixion]

how about people just stop blowing shit up. Leave each other's countries alone, and stop fukin bickerin like school kids.

Amen brother. Most sensible comment so far.

[TonyB]

well actually, being a Muslim, that is wrong Tony B. Think maybe I didn't make myself clear. I understand perfectly that the belief system these terrorists operate under bears no resemblence to the true Muslim faith. I did say "Assuming this was done by Muslim Extremists, as I understand it, anyone who is not a member of their particular religious sect is an infidel ", what I meant was not directed at Muslims in general, only this particular group of people.

I hope you didn't take offence. And I can understand why the people that do this sort of thing are so frustrated. I know a guy who worked in Palestine. From his appartment he could see a bad trouble spot in Ramala (sp?). He said on many occasions that what CNN were reporting on his Sat TV was very very different from what he could actually see happening. The truth was often twisted for what I can only assume was a political agenda. Thats only one example of the sort of stuff that goes on.

It's not hard to imagine how the mind of an angry young man or woman could be twisted by a leader (such as Bin Laden) with a politcal agenda. Wrap it all up in the guise of 'faith', make them believe what they are doing is gods will, and presto! You have a fanatic who is willing to kill and be killed for their cause.

It worked well for Adolf Hitler....

[MSTRS]

So what sets you apart from other lower-order bipeds?
With a comment like that, it can't be because you're more enlightened than them. Maybe you shave your pubes?
There are those here that refer to these terrorists as 'animals'. I disagree with that as animals do not set about killing except to eat, or to protect themselves from a direct threat (other than musculids(sp)). Nor do I consider their actions as being worthy of 'people'. They are no better than violent criminals IMO so should I refer to them as 'scum' or 'weasels'? I make no claims as to my state of enlightenment, although I did shave them once on the vascular surgeon's orders. :whistle:

[Ixion]

well actually , being a Muslim, that is wrong Tony B. those extremists might belive that but Islam doesnt state any of thay at all. In fact, Islam tells us to live and respect every other religion in this world. Thats why during the 6th century (when the Prophet was living in the middle east), he allowed every religion - including the Jews to live in middle east and he respected them.

The way I see it, they are killing innocent people in the west as a result of west attacking their country - Iraq and Afghanistan and I wont be surprised if Iran is next on the list. Now dont get me wrong, im not saying what they did was good, all I am saying is under their eyes, some innocent people were killed in their country thru the war and so they feel its perfectly legit to go and kill innocent in the west.

And Islam does state that you will go to Heaven ONLY IF you kill your enemies IN A WAR. Not killing innocent people like this or 9/11 style.


It must be tough being a Muslim when this sort of thing happens. So many people making the logic jump "The terrorists are all Muslims. Therefore all Muslims arer terrorists " :weird:

And yeah, the Muslim Ottoman empire ruled over Christians (and Jews) in the Balkans for 500 years without officla persecution. Which is more thaan can be said for the Christian countries.

EDIT: For the removal of doubt - nothing above is intended in any to refer to anyone in particular, here or elsewhere.

[Drunken Monkey]

There are those here that refer to these terrorists as 'animals'. I disagree with that as animals do not set about killing except to eat, or to protect themselves from a direct threat ...

You said it yourself - any animal will attack to protect itself when backed into a corner, ergo these people feel cornered by the foreign policy of people who think they know better. This is just on a geo-political scale, not a 1-1 interaction. Referring to them as scum may make you feel better, but it does nothing to stop the situation from happening again.
If everyone was able to 'enlighten' themselves into being above political squabbling instead of being happy in their ignorance, we wouldn't have these sitautions.
God damn, I sound like a hippy. :brick:
Well I guess the other way would be to turn the entire Middle East into a big piece of radioactive glass...

[scumdog]

How to stop Muslim suicide bombers? - start burying the bombers remains wrapped in pig-skin, that way they'll never go to heaven.

As if the dumb-arsed prick WERE going to heaven anyway.

Won't stop the bombing but will stop the easiest way to get a bomb into a crowded area.

Got no time for ANY terrorist, we've only got one world and one life, let's all live with each other peacefully.

[MrMelon]

Durka durka mohhamed jihad!

I don't see any good coming of this. It's going to give the general public more reason to support foreign wars from the actions of a handful of extremists. :(

[750Y]

RIP to those who just died & sympathy to the families/friends.

[Drunken Monkey]

Durka durka mohhamed jihad!

I don't see any good coming of this. It's going to give the general public more reason to support foreign wars from the actions of a handful of extremists. :(

There's nothing you can do! You're helpless to stop it! You might as well profit from it by starting up a few businesses:
an ammo factory
a bandages factory
an MRE/freeze dry food factory
a black plastic zip-up bag factory

[v.ros`]

according to me... its alrite.. im not sure as to why I havent been hassled that much (apart from this one time at the airport) but other then that, all i can say is NZers, thank God are more educated / aware of what actually is going on then some Americans.

But one thing is for sure.... while in the mall or walking down the street... there are some who gives that "wierd" look - like they wanna say something but are too scared.. lol

[MSTRS]

You said it yourself - any animal will attack to protect itself when backed into a corner,
Well I guess the other way would be to turn the entire Middle East into a big piece of radioactive glass...
Point - but the threat is not commuters, or office workers in tall buildings....
What about 'our' oil?

[TwoSeven]

A couple of things to put it into perspective. England has had train and plane crashes bigger than this. Personally I think most londeners will have gotten over it by the end of the week - there are simply too amny people and the even was too small (in comparison). Being a londoner, the usual thing is to shrug your shoulders and get on with it - you'll probably hear the media saying the same thing pretty soon. As far as I am concerned CNN will probably bleat on for a while as they do.

What I can say is that the british people will be rather pissed off now. Its kinda like waking a sleeping giant. As the chap said, I pity the folks that did it. Poms are pretty good at resolving issues like that. Quietly vindictive would be a suitable term.

Couple of things tho, looking at the shape of the blasts and style of injuries, i'd be pretty sure that they were briefcase bombs. This means they were carried on by people (rather than being pre-planted) and those people will be on camera. Also it looks like they all got on (or seeded the bombs) from aldgate. I think perhaps the bus one may have been an accident - thats my theory.

Also, I'd suggest that if people dont know anything about religion - i'd refrain from commenting on it. Because a few people here are spreading FUD by quoting shite the've heard via the gossip tree and its rather embarrasing at best. :)

Pulling off a bombing right in front of the world leaders was rather interesting tho. It will be an interesting long term reaction when they all go back to their countries after actually being witnesses to it all. Slightly different from phoning the 'other' chap up and expressing condolences. Tony Blair looked livid rather than upset.

just my thoughts.

[Drunken Monkey]

Point - but the threat is not commuters, or office workers in tall buildings....
What about 'our' oil?

Yes, read on to responding with unconventional methods where conventional methods do not work. Each is a logical progression of the former. Not necessarily the correct or only choice, but a result of preivous actions nonetheless.

The half-life of Caesium-137 and Strontium-90 is around 30 years for each, so you probably want to wait approximately 600 years before returning to the region to pump the rest out...

More than enough time to grow those pubes back :)

[mikey]

GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE, reporters do

[Biff]

I've just managed to get through to my London based family, some that live in the city, others just over the river in Greenwich. Ms Biff and I panicked for a short while as it was proving impossible to get through by phone as all the circuits were busy.

My thoughts are with those effected by these cowardly attacks. Attacks most likely, although not confirmed, to have been carried out by Islamic extremists. Cowards that mercifully failed to detonate their explosives during the rush hour, because if they did you can guarantee that the death and casualty toll would have been much greater.

Let's not start with the verbal assaults against Muslims in general folks. It's these kinds of misdirected attitudes that have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people over the years. Intolerance breads violence, and this atrocity appears to have been caused by a very small minority of an otherwise peaceful religion.

Don't forget London, its inhabitants, and emergency services are used to these kinds of attacks. After all the IRA bombed the city for decades, killing hundreds of innocent people. Over the years the British people have learned to carry on with their lives, refusing to bow down to these attempts to weaken their resolve and effect their daily lives. If the scum that were behind this attack honestly believe that this will impact on the British, and indeed the belief of the western world as a whole, then they are wrong. London will be pretty much back to normal in a few days, the war against terror will continue, and these people will be hunted until the ends of the earth in order to bring them to justice.


Actually, the City of London has it's own police force - the Metropolitan Police.


Not quite correct. There are two overt police forces in London - City of London Police look after an area of around a mile square around parliment buildings, the Met look after the rest. Then there are the law enforcement and national security organisations you don't see.

[MSTRS]

The half-life of Caesium-137 and Strontium-90 is around 30 years for each, so you probably want to wait approximately 600 years before returning to the region to pump the rest out...

More than enough time to grow those pubes back :)
And to read the Bible, Talmud , Koran in an effort to understand then give up & become a Buddhist

[TonyB]

Also, I'd suggest that if people dont know anything about religion - i'd refrain from commenting on it. Because a few people here are spreading FUD by quoting shite the've heard via the gossip tree and its rather embarrasing at best. :)

LOL. I for one wish I'd never opened my big uninformed gob....or is that typed with my big uninformed fingers?? No more FUD from me :no:

[Ixion]

according to me... its alrite.. im not sure as to why I havent been hassled that much (apart from this one time at the airport) but other then that, all i can say is NZers, thank God are more educated / aware of what actually is going on then some Americans.

..

That's good to hear. :yes:

[MSTRS]

But one thing is for sure.... while in the mall or walking down the street... there are some who gives that "wierd" look - like they wanna say something but are too scared.. lol
Now be honest - most of us get nervous around burkhas & AK47s :whistle:

[parsley]

I've just managed to get through to my London based family, some that live in the city, others just over the river in Greenwich.
Good to hear yours are alright. I got through to my sister last night and the immediate family's okay, but it'll be a while before I know about all my friends in London.


Not quite correct. There are two overt police forces in London - City of London Police look after an area of around a mile square around parliment buildings, the Met look after the rest. Then there are the law enforcement and national security organisations you don't see.
<Shuffles feet, looks embarassed>Okay, so I didn't know what I was talking about. :nono: But I think the point still stands - increased security in Scotland will not effect London policing.

[eliot-ness]

Peace will reign on earth when the last stone, from the last church, falls on the head of the last priest.
There has never been, nor ever will be, a religion that will not condone warfare as a means to it's own ends. Look back through history. The victors always had God on their side.

[MrMelon]

A letter to the terrorists, from london (http://www.lnreview.co.uk/news/005167.php)




What the fuck do you think you're doing?

This is London. We've dealt with your sort before. You don't try and pull this on us.

Do you have any idea how many times our city has been attacked? Whatever you're trying to do, it's not going to work.

All you've done is end some of our lives, and ruin some more. How is that going to help you? You don't get rewarded for this kind of crap.

And if, as your MO indicates, you're an al-Qaeda group, then you're out of your tiny minds.

Because if this is a message to Tony Blair, we've got news for you. We don't much like our government ourselves, or what they do in our name. But, listen very clearly. We'll deal with that ourselves. We're London, and we've got our own way of doing things, and it doesn't involve tossing bombs around where innocent people are going about their lives.

And that's because we're better than you. Everyone is better than you. Our city works. We rather like it. And we're going to go about our lives. We're going to take care of the lives you ruined. And then we're going to work. And we're going down the pub.

So you can pack up your bombs, put them in your arseholes, and get the fuck out of our city.

[placidfemme]

Thats a good letter and it pretty much sums it up... :)

[Lou Girardin]

It seems from the timing of the attacks that the bus bomb was carried on by a suicide bomber when they were loading the buses with people evacuated from the tubes. Evil, but cunning aren't they.
But as another post said, you really don't want to rouse the Poms, there may be a show trial of some of those who did this. But most will quietly vanish with a little SAS and MI 6 help.

PS I've just realised the inappropriateness of my previous sig. Might just quietly change that for a while.

[Big Dave]

What i 'pray' for - apart from that it never happened and no-one was hurt of course - is that at the moment the suicide bomber presses the button, he comes to the horrible realisation that the entrance to ANY heaven is barred to fuckers that kill innocents - and he completely shits himself as his last thought is of his own stupid death and the fact that his soul is going to rot in whatever hell he belives in.

[El Dopa]

Let's not start with the verbal assaults against Muslims in general folks. It's these kinds of misdirected attitudes that have resulted in the death of hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent people over the years. Intolerance breads violence, and this atrocity appears to have been caused by a very small minority of an otherwise peaceful religion.



Hear, hear. I don't go round slagging off ALL catholics becuase IRA scum kill innnocent people, so think before you react.

Myself and my wife are still waiting to hear whether everyone we know who might have been in the area is ok, including her best mate.

London has dealt with this shit in the past, and will deal with it now.

I was in Central London when the Baltic exchange bomb went off, close enough to hear it.

The IRA bombed platform 3 at Victoria, which was where I used to catch a train south.

The Brixton, Brick Lane and Soho bombs were all set in places me and my wife used to hang out. A guy I know avoided getting blown up in Brixton by going to have a beer instead of catching a train.

But if anyone wants to make some smart cracks about 'the french', or make some other stupid point that really should be kept for another time, please, think before you open your gob, and STFU.

[FROSTY]

Folks just a bit of information for those of ya that don't know.
Anyone wanting to totally disrupt London and cause maximum Meyhem will attack the public transport system. Bomb a building and london will cary on. Bomb the tubes and you could stop london in its tracks

[Biff]

But I think the point still stands - increased security in Scotland will not effect London policing.

You're not wrong mate - The Met have around 30,000 police officers. That’s not far off half the entire British mainland’s total number of officers. Add to that the Specials - (part time members of the public that assist without pay), civil patrol/civic wardens etc (almost like police - but without the complete arresting powers), then add in the City of London police & British Transport Police and you're up to a potential general policing workforce that numbers between 35 – 40 K people. Plenty to go around me thinks..

And then there are the military/paramilitary types.

[RiderInBlack]

You know its racism that causes terrorism.And I also know that terrorism causes racism. If Al Queada (sp) want Westies to think Muslism Radicals are cool bunch of dudes you'd love to invite to your babie, they going the wrong way about it.

[Deano]

I don't presume to know the Koran at all, but if what was reported on 60 minutes this week is true (stoning homosexuals to death, views on women etc) then why would anyone want to follow Islam ? It's beyond me.

And when a film is made that depicts Islam in a bad light, the producer is murdered and the writer receives death threats and has to have round the clock protection.

[MadDuck]

Ok so its time to reflect. When I started the post last night all hell was breaking lose and the media were having a field day. HEAP killed and yadda yadda ....

Having spent some time there I know that hitting the underground would destroy the public access to and from the centre of London. I have to say the London emergency services were so READY for this kind of attack and it showed in their calmness both from the police interviews through to the people who had microphones shoved in their faces.

I kinda feel sorry for the terrorists (PT!) cos they woke the sleeping giant. Watch this space cos one thing the English dont do is lie down to this kinda thing.

Glad to see our London KBers all safe and sound !

[jazbug5]

I don't presume to know the Koran at all, but if what was reported on 60 minutes this week is true (stoning homosexuals to death, views on women etc) then why would anyone want to follow Islam ? It's beyond me.

And when a film is made that depicts Islam in a bad light, the producer is murdered and the writer receives death threats and has to have round the clock protection.

I'd say that folk who say that the Koran justifies these acts remind me more than a little of certain 'Christians'. George Dubya, anyone?

I am not Muslim (obviously) but have friends who are, and my sister has read it front to back (or is that back to front..?). Apparently none of these things feature prominently and murder is certainly not justifiable according to its laws. The oppression of women also has more to do with the mores of the desert cultures that adopted Islam- they didn't allow women to read or interpret the Book, and therefore were able to use it to justify all sorts of things. Not an idea exclusive to the practise of this religion.

Anyway, my heart goes out to the victims of this and of this whole situation. Innocent people may well suffer in eventual repercussions(sp?), also.

[Indiana_Jones]

Having spent some time there I know that hitting the underground would destroy the public access to and from the centre of London. I have to say the London emergency services were so READY for this kind of attack and it showed in their calmness both from the police interviews through to the people who had microphones shoved in their faces.

I kinda feel sorry for the terrorists (PT!) cos they woke the sleeping giant. Watch this space cos one thing the English dont do is lie down to this kinda thing.

One funny thing I find is how the media here and in other countries are like "what the hell?, they're calm?"
I think it's something we poms have built in or what not :yes:

And no, we won't bow to those dickless pieces of shit, unlike the Spanish. Wow, I mean I wish I had the balls to blow up unarmed cilivains going to work, big man :wait:

-Indy

[TwoSeven]

Hmm.. reading the Qur'an or لْقُرآن.. I assume she speaks fluent arabic ? or perhaps one of the sectarian english translations.

Its the written version of gods word as revealed by gabriel to muhammad some 1400 years ago. She'd also know that any translation (non-arabic version) would not be deemed a literal translation of the word of god. Also she may be able to name the number of surah.

There are 3 sects belonging to the muslim religion (like we have jews, catholics and prodestants) these are.

Alhus Sunnah Wal-Jamaa'h or Sunni muslim, Shi'ate Ali or Shi'a Islam and the Karijites (hopefully spelt that right).

Sunni is the largest religion and what most people will follow. Its based on two things, the words of the Qur'an and the deeds of Muhummad (salafee). They use the latter to translate the former. Since Muhummad was a generally nice bloke, they dont believe in killing and all that.

The shia are followers of Ali Talib one of the decendents of Muhammad they could be considered extremists if it werent for the last lot the Karajites. When Muhammad died their was a bit of a power strugle between Ali and a few others over who should be boss. The losers became fundemental extremists who believe in the literal translation of the Qur'an. These are the Karajites.

The problem is, that if you use the deeds of the generally nice bloke muhammad in reading the qur'an then the translation works out generally nice. However, if you dont, and take the literal translations then you get double meanings.

For example - take the following rough translation.

"Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They are themselves but fuel for the Fire"

Now, the christian bible has a similar phrase. But in christianity we basically say, disbelivers will burn in hell after they die, unless they repent and believe in god. Its usually pretty specific about the 'after they die' perferably of natural causes bit.

If you use the deeds of muhammad (the generally nice bloke) you get the same translation. If you dont you get something along these lines.

If they refuse to believe in god, then they are fire fodder. It could be taken as a good idea to then put them on the fire.

Which kind of implies you should knock them on the head now, rather than wait for them to die of natural causes as good christians would.

So you can see the problem. When god epressed his views to muhammad who promptly wrote them down. He kind of forgot to express his intent (meaning). So muhummad never wrote that bit down. There has been strife in iraq ever since as they have been fighting each other over who's 'intent' was right ever since. Hence the current problems in Iraq.

Its important to note that this has nothing to do with terrorism. This is just people fighting each other over who's belief is the correct one. They couldnt give a monkies about foreigners. Sometimes the word Jahid pops up. There are two variants - Greater jihad used to mean the 'struggle' against vices and the like (ie. the to implmement the 10 commandments in christianity) and the lesser jihad which means holy war (or struggle to teach non-believers the way of islam). A mujahid is someone who practices lesser jihad hence mujahideen (strugglers).

When I said muhammad is a generally nice chap, he was a mujahid, he and his followers used to nip to the neighboring visitors and educate (perform jihad) on the local inhabitants. Its not documented what happened to those that failed to become educated in the ways of allah. Which is comes back to Muhammads failure to document 'intent'. You see, jihad also meant 'holy war' which in those days meant - going round educating people in a crusade - but by peaceful means'. Its kind of like bob geldoff declaring war on poverty. It means we should get rid of poverty - not kill poor people.

Still nothing to do with terrorism.

Bin Laden practices soofism (similar to salafee of sunnah), which is fairly peaceful. He is also a follower of an absolute mad egyptian nutter by the name of Sayyid Qutb and hence a follower of Qutb'sm.

Sayyid Qutb was born in egypt a westener and converted to islam after living in the US (you'll click about here). He didnt like Nassar (president of egypt) and later (in 1966) got himself hanged.

Being a convert of islam he didnt quite understand it that well and got carried away when he heard about an old militant group known as the Khawaarij who went around butchering muhammads companions (they believed it was ok to kill muslims whereas other muslims didnt). He made a lot of islam up as he went along - which many religious people do. However, being a popular guy he had followers who believed him.

One of his made up bits, where the fact that isalm is in a state of 'unbelief' and this needs to be corrected. He also picked up on the holy war bit and the fact that the khawaajid thought it was ok to kill muslims and bang - you have a bunch of nutters. Now, you may of clicked where I said you would before. Sayyid had a bad time of it in the US - being a dirt poor egyptian, he suffered in the slums, but saw the riches. So he ended up not liking the US that much (think of him as failing to live the american dream).

Anyhow, a few groups that followed Qutb'sm are the al-Qaa'idah and my favorite Jamaah-atuul-jihad (islamic jihad). Qutb found away round the muslim law against overthrowing a muslim leader and one of the groups (al-jihad) were famous for assasinating anwar sadat.

Al-quaa'idah is currently run by a well known chap called usaamah bin laden and al-jihad by his right hand man (married to bin ladens daughter) none other than mr Ayaman Al-Zawahri who currently resides in Iraq (now you know why the US troops hate him so much).

So. Hope that might spread some understanding why islam and terrorism aint quit related.

[jazbug5]

Hmm.. reading the Qur'an or لْقُرآن.. I assume she speaks fluent arabic ? or perhaps one of the sectarian english translations.
.

My sister is a linguist. She taught herself Arabic so that she could read it in the original. Not sure how fluent she is, but. I can't really test her myself!
One of the Muslim friends I mentioned was a bit of a scholar and certainly fluent in Arabic- she was basically was in accord with the view on non-violence.
And on subjective/controlled interpretation. Hasn't everything been altered in transition, somewhat..?

Anyway, cheers for the info in the rest of the post- interesting stuff.

[TwoSeven]

I had a stab at learning arabic when I was in palistine (bet lahama [bethlehem]). I chap I knew tought be a few words in exchange for teaching him english. Is hard because I cant do some of the gutteral sounds. Gave up on the road signs tho. I mean what does squiggle dot squiggle mean. :)

[surfchick]

heart sank when i saw that news on london. my brother was heading to work..but was sweet.underground closed when he got there. reminded me of ringing to N. ireland when the omagh bomb went off- cousin just back from town- was fine.

my heart goes out to the families of the dead and to all the others who were maimed. :no:

[NC]

OH NO IS THIS SERIOUS? MY MATES JUST GONE TO WORK THERE , AN EX DARBY ST BOY
You're a Darby st boy? :clap:

[El Dopa]

One funny thing I find is how the media here and in other countries are like "what the hell?, they're calm?"
I think it's something we poms have built in or what not :yes:

-Indy

Yep. Stiff upper lip, Blitz spirit etc etc.

A point that the stupid fucking bint on TV1 news on Friday night COMPLETELY FUCKING MISSED.

She seemed to be under the impression that we were all hiding in the corner, sucking our thumbs and asking daddy why the bad men were doing bad things.

Erm, lady, here's a fucking newsflash for you. Not only did we live through 30 fucking years of IRA bombs, but we've all specifically expected a bomb on the tube for the last 4 years.

Brits may often come across as a bunch of effete tea-drinkers, but we also produce some of the most efficient, cold-blooded killers in the world. It wouldn't surprise me if a few heads in jars of formaldehyde are being used as novelty paperweights in Downing St over the next year or so.

[parsley]

You're not wrong mate - The Met have around 30,000 police officers. That’s not far off half the entire British mainland’s total number of officers. Add to that the Specials - (part time members of the public that assist without pay), civil patrol/civic wardens etc (almost like police - but without the complete arresting powers), then add in the City of London police & British Transport Police and you're up to a potential general policing workforce that numbers between 35 – 40 K people. Plenty to go around me thinks..
My Dad used to run a pub in central London (ah, happy days). One night not long after he took over he was having a bit of trouble with a couple of guys who'd had too much of the beer. They were suits so he didn't expect anything serious but he called the Police like he'd been taught at pub school. 10 minutes later the door opened and about 30 coppers ran in. It turns out that the City of London Police spend most of their weeknights sitting in the station drinking tea. When the call came in that there was trouble in a pub...

Unfortunately most of the other customers cleared out almost immediately. My Dad never called them again.

[parsley]

Its based on two things, the words of the Qur'an and the deeds of Muhummad (salafee). They use the latter to translate the former. Since Muhummad was a generally nice bloke, they dont believe in killing and all that.
Makes you wonder what Muhummad would say if he came back today. "You did WHAT?" :no:

The thing that most politicians and talk show hosts seem to get wrong is talking about things like poverty and lack of education being the cause of terrorism. If you look at most of the leaders of Al Queda, they're all rich, educated men who have spent a large part of their lives drinking, wenching and generally breaking most of the rules they now hold dear. Most of them became terrorists after being involved with the USA in some way. Hmmm...

[El Dopa]

Makes you wonder what Muhummad would say if he came back today. "You did WHAT?" :no:

The thing that most politicians and talk show hosts seem to get wrong is talking about things like poverty and lack of education being the cause of terrorism. If you look at most of the leaders of Al Queda, they're all rich, educated men who have spent a large part of their lives drinking, wenching and generally breaking most of the rules they now hold dear. Most of them became terrorists after being involved with the USA in some way. Hmmm...

Yes, but they draw from a huge pool of unfocussed resentment and anger, and direct it to their own ends.

Drain the pool, and watch the rich, educated evil bastards suffocate.

[justsomeguy]

It is terrible what has happened. Made more tragic by the fact that London had one of the largest public gatherings protesting against attacking Iraq.

I'm extremely relieved that I haven't read any sad information about any KB member's friend/relative being involved in the attacks and that London is getting back to normal.

One thing that has blown me away has been the perfection displayed by the emergency services. :clap:

Please note what I'm trying to do below is present my objective view on terrorism and what little I know about it. I strongly condemn any acts of terror.

Although it may seem simple to classify the reasons why people become a terrorist and develop such vile vehemence, the actual rationale motivating such people to live such a savage life is varied and sophisticated.

I once had a chance to speak to an Indian Army officer who dealt/faced terrorists in Kashmir. I also spoke about this subject in general to a friend from East Timor who also has seen terrorism/ violence before his eyes.

Basically they said, "If someone kills a member of your family or a close friend" - kills as in kills in front of you - "then most people who witness this are filled with a great desire for revenge, this desire is usually only satisfied by the killing of a member of the other party. The other person to be killed can be anybody even remotely linked to the other party".

I found this deeply disturbing but understood that this was how such people felt regardless of anything else. Dealing with the bearers of horrible single-mindedness was unfortunately sometimes only possible through the use of a gun.

As Gandhi said: An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.

Now these people are in a traumatised and almost brain washed trance..... Terrorist leaders, politicians, etc take advantage of these horrible feelings and begin to mould people minds into believing that their macabre sentiments are justified. In fact entire generations of children have grown into adults being fed alarming propaganda by these putrid politicians and even Kings from the years past. Now what facade could be more glorified than hiding behind a grotesque distortion of religion?? Hence all the pseudo Islam rubbish. I know several Muslim friends who I assure you tell me that Islam has absolutely nothing to do with what these scoundrels perpetrate.

This brain washing of the public through intelligently appealing to peoples primal desires is something that has been going on since centuries. The Bush campaign gave it a suitable name with their "Hearts and Minds" campaign - Note: These things can be used for both good like Bush is trying and bad like Osama is currently doing. I just hope that they catch and kill as many of these terrorists as soon as possible especially their terrorist leaders.

Once again I'm really, really ecstatic that I haven't read any sad information about any KB members friend/relative and that London seems to be getting back to normal.

.....end of rant.....

JSG

[MSTRS]

Islam has absolutely nothing to do with what these scoundrels perpetrate.

good like Bush is trying
Most of us realise that these 'events' have nothing to do with the tenets of Islam, but since the perpetrators call themselves Moslem, it becomes the de facto focus of our collective abhorrence of the bombings.
but who said that Bush is doing 'good'? To a lot of people around the world, he is just as bad as Osama & his ilk.

[justsomeguy]

Most of us realise that these 'events' have nothing to do with the tenets of Islam, but since the perpetrators call themselves Moslem, it becomes the de facto focus of our collective abhorrence of the bombings.
but who said that Bush is doing 'good'? To a lot of people around the world, he is just as bad as Osama & his ilk.

I think Bush is an arsehole - he's gonna join his dad in hell.....He's ruined Iraq and Afghanistan - killed scores and what has he achieved??? Saddam is probably in house arrest at the Hyatt somewhere and Osama is probably lounging at some tropical island looking at the sun set.

I realise that these people call themselves Muslims - But I think they do that as it sounds better and carries more weight than calling themselves Thomas, Richard or Harris.

[MSTRS]

Or, indeed, Graeme (Capill)

[Ghost Lemur]

...but we also produce some of the most efficient, cold-blooded killers in the world.

Hell yes.

And not just recently either. The first holacaust was british, also invented the concentration camp.

You know what they say, got to be careful of the quiet one's. :msn-wink:

[parsley]

The first holacaust was british, also invented the concentration camp.
Eh? I know the great British Empire (tm) was responsible for more than a few massacres but I don't think we can claim to have invented holocausts or concentration camps. The word holocaust is Greek for a start.


You know what they say, got to be careful of the quiet one's. :msn-wink:
Quiet ones? You've obviously never been around Poms when they're drinking. :drinkup:

[Bob]

Eh? I know the great British Empire (tm) was responsible for more than a few massacres but I don't think we can claim to have invented holocausts or concentration camps. The word holocaust is Greek for a start.

Quiet ones? You've obviously never been around Poms when they're drinking. :drinkup:

Actually, we created concentration camps during the Boer War in South Africa. This little link throws a touch more light on the tale:

http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/africa/boers.html

Tasmania of course, also saw the rather unique (at that time) British method of 'cleaning the place up'... by starting at one end of the island and heading to the other end, shooting all natives that were spotted. Once this was done, the few remaining were hurded up and placed in a concentraton camp. Again, details available at:

http://www.justpacific.com/tasmania/first.html

So no, we're not exactly innocents... but that was a long time ago...

[Lou Girardin]

Bush Snr is still alive and he regarded the invasion of Iraq as a mistake. That doesn't make him better though, he sat on his hands and allowed Saddam to gas the Kurds after GW2.
I did note the 'moderate' muslims distancing themselves from the terrorists, but the problem still stands that, even in this day and age, sharia law is vicious and repessive. Just last week Ashraf Choudry, one of our MP's, said he agreed with the stoning of homosexuals and (female) adulterers.
Muslims have to get past this literal interpretation of the Koran, as have Christians. Although some would have us go backwards, George Dubya is a proven killer, it's just that his methods are "scientific".

[v.ros`]

Bush Snr is still alive and he regarded the invasion of Iraq as a mistake. That doesn't make him better though, he sat on his hands and allowed Saddam to gas the Kurds after GW2.
I did note the 'moderate' muslims distancing themselves from the terrorists, but the problem still stands that, even in this day and age, sharia law is vicious and repessive. Just last week Ashraf Choudry, one of our MP's, said he agreed with the stoning of homosexuals and (female) adulterers.
Muslims have to get past this literal interpretation of the Koran, as have Christians. Although some would have us go backwards, George Dubya is a proven killer, it's just that his methods are "scientific".

That is your view about the shariah law. it doesnt necesarrily mean that it is vicious and repressive. Im not saying the whole world should start the shariah law - but if a country is run by a muslim, then dont you think you should respect their law and rights. By running a country with Sharaih law, it does reduce the level of crime as the punishment will mostly scare the people. Shariah law also doesnt say that everyone in the country will have to turn into Islam or get killed - shariah law fully gives rights and repsects other religion as well.

Regarding the muslim mps view, well he did say in the interview that he belived in stoning the homosexuals and adulterers, well he also said that he belives that should be the case only in a country which follows the shariah law and not NZ as NZ is predominately (Sp?) a christain country.

[pete376403]

Comments by John Pilger and Robert Fisk
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/071005X.shtml
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/070905Z.shtml

[Paul in NZ]

Sigh.....

There are always problems... If you are a powerful country, what DO you do about countries that have governments that foster terrorists and abuse there own citizens? Either way you are stuffed... It's a bit like Mike Tyson walking down the street and seeing a big woman mugging a small bloke. Hes stuffed no matter what he does.

(no I'm not defending the invasion)

The world is just full of arseholes... Arseholes that know better than everyone else and insist that well all do what the %^&k we are told and shut up about it. We certainly have our own version here but they generally satisfy themselves by taxing us to death and tut tutting over everything else (the political ones anyway - the commercial ones are 2 busy selling dodgy shite, planting pine trees and dredging up coral)

Personally... Divide Iraq in half. If you want to live in an Islamic democracy this side of the line, Islamic theocracy that side of the line...

Everyone gets to choose and nobody bitches about it afterwards.

[Lou Girardin]

That is your view about the shariah law. it doesnt necesarrily mean that it is vicious and repressive. Im not saying the whole world should start the shariah law - but if a country is run by a muslim, then dont you think you should respect their law and rights. By running a country with Sharaih law, it does reduce the level of crime as the punishment will mostly scare the people. Shariah law also doesnt say that everyone in the country will have to turn into Islam or get killed - shariah law fully gives rights and repsects other religion as well.

Regarding the muslim mps view, well he did say in the interview that he belived in stoning the homosexuals and adulterers, well he also said that he belives that should be the case only in a country which follows the shariah law and not NZ as NZ is predominately (Sp?) a christain country.

Stoning adulterers is, by definition, vicious and repressive. Are you also in favour of burning witches? That used to be Christian law, part of our culture.
One interpretation of the Koran says that infidels must face the fires. Infidels are the non-muslims. Ergo, if you're not a muslim, you must die.
As it's the fastest growing religeon, if NZ does become muslim, will we then become subject to shariah law? Will it be acceptable if it's the majority belief?
Then again, is Choudry not subjugating his beliefs to the law of the infidel?
He would be condemned to death for that under shariah law.
I'm sorry, but any religeon that advocates death for so many transgressions is not acceptable in an enlightened society.

[Ixion]

Is not Shariah law, by definition, only applicable to Muslims ? If so, whilst not wanting to be subject to it myself, I do tend to think that if others want to be so bound, it's really up to them. I would only have an issue if someone started wanting to forcibly apply it to unwilling recipients.

Even today some of the opinions of the more fundamentalist Christians can be pretty scarey.

There doesn't seem any good acceptable to all solution to these things. Sometimes wish the Big Fella would come down and sort us out.

"For heathen heart that puts her trust
In reeking tube and iron shard,
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
And guarding, calls not Thee to guard,
For frantic boast and foolish word
Thy mercy on Thy People, Lord! "

And, to forestall, the "heathen" was anyone who trusted to reeking tube and iron shard, not any particular faith.

[Clockwork]

Sigh.....

............Personally... Divide Iraq in half. If you want to live in an Islamic democracy this side of the line, Islamic theocracy that side of the line...

Everyone gets to choose and nobody bitches about it afterwards.

Hmmmm, that didn't work too well in Ireland.

[Deano]

Just last week Ashraf Choudry, one of our MP's, said he agreed with the stoning of homosexuals and (female) adulterers.

Muslims have to get past this literal interpretation of the Koran.

Of particular concern was that he just said "if it's in the Koran then I believe it". - He didn't appear to know the Koran/religion very well at all.

Blind faith ??


Regarding the muslim mps view, well he did say in the interview that he belived in stoning the homosexuals and adulterers, well he also said that he belives that should be the case only in a country which follows the shariah law and not NZ as NZ is predominately (Sp?) a christain country.

I think it's dangerous to expect that in any given situation, some devout Muslims (or any other religious followers), will place the laws of the land above their God's law.

[Paul in NZ]

Hmmmm, that didn't work too well in Ireland.

Haha! Too true mate....

Cheers

[Paul in NZ]

I think it's dangerous to expect that in any given situation, some devout Muslims (or any other religious followers), will place the laws of the land above their God's law.

God (if she came back) would probably just say something like - "You believed that? Shit guys I was just kidding... I was trying to take a dump and frickin Moses kept knocking at the damn door... So I just told him any old toot to get rid of the idiot"

The problem is... It's not gods law is it... It's always some dickhead interpreting gods law.... God grief, we have enough trouble with lawyers interpreting civil law (and a damn low opinion of them). Why should we think any more of the dodgy bastards (lower entrance standards to get into a church than a law school) that help us poor dumb bunnies figure out god type laws...

[Deano]

God (if she came back) would probably just say something like - "You believed that? Shit guys I was just kidding... I was trying to take a dump and frickin Moses kept knocking at the damn door... So I just told him any old toot to get rid of the idiot"

The problem is... It's not gods law is it... It's always some dickhead interpreting gods law.... God grief, we have enough trouble with lawyers interpreting civil law (and a damn low opinion of them). Why should we think any more of the dodgy bastards (lower entrance standards to get into a church than a law school) that help us poor dumb bunnies figure out god type laws...

True - should have read 'their interpretation of God's law'.

If God is perfect - does she need to take a dump ?

[surfchick]

Hmmmm, that didn't work too well in Ireland.
yup...never that simple

[Ixion]

yup...never that simple

Sadly, it never is. My motto in life - "It ain't that simple"

[Paul in NZ]

True - should have read 'their interpretation of God's law'.

If God is perfect - does she need to take a dump ?

Hell yes!

The 11th commandment is: There is nothing so over rated as a quick shag and nothing so underated as a good long crap!

Stands to reason too. Apparently Moses preached had a Parable that would support this commandment but somehow it never made the final cut of the Bible. I think it was a story about 2 brothers that went out into the desert and came to Soddom, one went a week without a shag (quite understandably) and the other (who was ghey) tried to go a week without a crap as a gesture of solidarity to his brother.

Eventually he exploded leading to the other story about Soddom and the pillar of salt was infact Epsom salts and he was being turned ON by it (it was quite a small and rather oddly shaped pillar) when the unfortunate event occured. naturally most people would not understand that so the story was changed...

[Paul in NZ]

Sadly, it never is. My motto in life - "It ain't that simple"

Pfft! Buy a Moto Guzzi mate. Our motto is - "I can't believe it's that simple"

[Ixion]

Hell yes!

The 11th commandment is: There is nothing so over rated as a quick shag and nothing so underated as a good long crap!

Stands to reason too. Apparently Moses preached had a Parable that would support this commandment but somehow it never made the final cut of the Bible. I think it was a story about 2 brothers that went out into the desert and came to Soddom, one went a week without a shag (quite understandably) and the other (who was ghey) tried to go a week without a crap as a gesture of solidarity to his brother.

Eventually he exploded leading to the other story about Soddom and the pillar of salt was infact Epsom salts and he was being turned ON by it (it was quite a small and rather oddly shaped pillar) when the unfortunate event occured. naturally most people would not understand that so the story was changed...

I await with bated breath , and no little trepidation, the true story on the accompanying incident at Gommorah. :scratch:

[Paul in NZ]

I await with bated breath , and no little trepidation, the true story on the accompanying incident at Gommorah. :scratch:

You got bat breath? Funnily enought thats what started the whole Gommorah business off you see... Well one day...

[Lou Girardin]

While watching Te News last night it occurred to me that there's been a media frenzy over the London bombings, at last count 50 dead. Yesterday 50 Iraqis died in terrorist attacks. last week there was around 30, the week before..............?. These deaths rate 10 seconds on the news or a couple of column inches in the papers. There have been at minimum, ten times the number of dead, free Iraqis than those killed in New York, Madrid and London.
I guess one white person must be worth more than 100 or a even thousand ragheads.
No wonder they hate us.

[Paul in NZ]

While watching Te News last night it occurred to me that there's been a media frenzy over the London bombings, at last count 50 dead. Yesterday 50 Iraqis died in terrorist attacks. last week there was around 30, the week before..............?. These deaths rate 10 seconds on the news or a couple of column inches in the papers. There have been at minimum, ten times the number of dead, free Iraqis than those killed in New York, Madrid and London.
I guess one white person must be worth more than 100 or a even thousand ragheads.
No wonder they hate us.

Wadda you mean "US" Infidel?

[parsley]

While watching Te News last night it occurred to me that there's been a media frenzy over the London bombings, at last count 50 dead. Yesterday 50 Iraqis died in terrorist attacks. last week there was around 30, the week before..............?. These deaths rate 10 seconds on the news or a couple of column inches in the papers. There have been at minimum, ten times the number of dead, free Iraqis than those killed in New York, Madrid and London.
I guess one white person must be worth more than 100 or a even thousand ragheads.
No wonder they hate us.
I know what you mean about a media frenzy, but you have to remember that a lot more of NZ know people in London than people in Iraq. They're more interested so the media cover it.

[v.ros`]

Stoning adulterers is, by definition, vicious and repressive. Are you also in favour of burning witches? That used to be Christian law, part of our culture.
One interpretation of the Koran says that infidels must face the fires. Infidels are the non-muslims. Ergo, if you're not a muslim, you must die.
As it's the fastest growing religeon, if NZ does become muslim, will we then become subject to shariah law? Will it be acceptable if it's the majority belief?
Then again, is Choudry not subjugating his beliefs to the law of the infidel?
He would be condemned to death for that under shariah law.
I'm sorry, but any religeon that advocates death for so many transgressions is not acceptable in an enlightened society.

Well the Koran does say that infidel must face the fire. Now what that means is not that infidels - meaning non-muslims should be killled and burnt to death... it means that according to the Koran, if you aint a muslim and you die, you will go to Hell. It does NOT in any way say that non-muslims should be killed just because they aint muslims. During the time Medinna (saudi arabia) was ruled by the prophets, there were non-muslims living in that place and they were not killed as infidels... they were given the right to live they life and worship whomever they wanted to.

If NZ does become a muslim country and say that the shariah law is implied, then what that means is you will have to follow the shariah law. it doesnt say you have to change your religion and become a muslim and pray 5 times a day. It doesnt tell you / or your wife to cover their face with a burkha - however, it does tell you to dress 'appropriately' - meaning no mini skirts and stuff like that. Now you might think that is oppression but according to the shariah law, they are just treating women with respect and not to look at them as just a 'sex object'. And if there is shariah law and you break it, well you face the penalty... just like any other country. Say you go and commit a crime today in NZ, you broke the law and according to NZ law, you will be put into a jail for maybe 2 years... well shariah will either cut your hands and stone you to death, depending on your crime...you might say this aint fair but every country has its law and shariah law aint no different. How come some of us complain about shariah law and we dont complain about the US law where there is a death penalty.... isnt that just the same as stoning someone to death..???

Regarding choudrey... well the way i see it, he was just trying to say this: even though he is a muslim and belives in shariah law... he was saying that since NZ aint a muslim country, the shariah law doesnt apply here and that even though he belives in stoning adulteres to death, that aint a NZ LAW practise and so he has to accept that. There is a big difference in believing something and following something. You can belive in whatever you want but it doesnt necessarily mean you have/are able to follow it..

sorry for the Spelling... i was typin in a hurry :)

and i totally agree with you about the deaths of 50 Iraqis... while watching it in the news, i was thinking the exact same thing. 50 died in two or three bombs and it was just another 15second clip on the news... no threads in KB forum... no minutes of silence around the world...

[scumdog]

Lets see... shariah law....law made by men about womens dress style/appearance ...respect for women??....keep them oppressed and in a lower status to males....stoned to death if they get caught 'jumping the fence'.... yup, can really see the gals going for that kind of 'law'!!!! :weird:

Lucky for them they can still vote in this infidel country!!

[Lou Girardin]

That's why I said "one interpretation" vros, unfortunately it is one that is increasingly common.

[TwoSeven]

Well the Koran does say that infidel must face the fire. ..

I think you will find the correct wording is 'will' rather than 'must'. Makes a slight difference in the meaning :)

[Paul in NZ]

Lets see... shariah law....law made by men about womens dress style/appearance ...respect for women??....keep them oppressed and in a lower status to males....stoned to death if they get caught 'jumping the fence'.... yup, can really see the gals going for that kind of 'law'!!!! :weird:

Lucky for them they can still vote in this infidel country!!

Yeah well... Unfortunate thing is.. Some would... Especially if there was a chance they would get to lob a few boulders...

[TonyB]

I stopped reading this thread a while back, but the Letter from London (http://www.lnreview.co.uk/news/005167.php) got me thinking. I really like the sentiment of that letter- who are you to attack us, it's been tried before, we'll decide the fate of our politicians etc. All well put.

Has anyone considered that the people of Iraq and their neighbours will be thinking exactly the same thing? The first known cities and civiliastions (http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_iraq.htm) were founded in what is now Iraq. The first known written language was devised by the Sumerians thousands of years ago. Civilisation has existed in this area in various forms since at least 5000BC. At that time Britain (http://www.great-britain.co.uk/history/history.htm) was in the stoneage- civilisation didn't really get going there untill 1500BC. The America's (http://www.usahistory.info/timeline/) weren't even 'discovered' untill 1492AD.

When their civilisation is so ancient, having a 'new' country like the USA interfere in their countries affairs must be hard to stomach

[Mooch]

I stopped reading this thread a while back, but the Letter from London (http://www.lnreview.co.uk/news/005167.php) got me thinking. I really like the sentiment of that letter- who are you to attack us, it's been tried before, we'll decide the fate of our politicians etc. All well put.

Has anyone considered that the people of Iraq and their neighbours will be thinking exactly the same thing? The first known cities and civiliastions (http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_iraq.htm) were founded in what is now Iraq. The first known written language was devised by the Sumerians thousands of years ago. Civilisation has existed in this area in various forms since at least 5000BC. At that time Britain (http://www.great-britain.co.uk/history/history.htm) was in the stoneage- civilisation didn't really get going there untill 1500BC. The America's (http://www.usahistory.info/timeline/) weren't even 'discovered' untill 1492AD.

When their civilisation is so ancient, having a 'new' country like the USA interfere in their countries affairs must be hard to stomach

Tony, you've really got to get out of Christchurch more often! Perhaps, if you you've been to London you'd understand how diverse the population is. Apart from the 23,000 kiwi's you'll find people from virtually every part of the world following every religion (or none). Same goes with the passengers on the Tube system here , Sometimes you'd think your somewhere other than Britain , the suburb I'm in at times you think that your in the middle east . All these mixtures of cultures use the Tube everyday. The follower’s responsible for the bombings would have known that they'd been killing people from all parts of the globe including fellow countryman.

Londoners have a great atituide towards getting on with life after these events. No one should have the right to decide that people should live or die based on misguided beliefs.
One thing for certain, I’ll be taking a leaf out of a Londoners book by catching the Tube and using the bus systems, and not bowing to terrorism. We’re not afraid!

[TonyB]

Think you might have missed my point slightly Mooch- but yeh, I DO need to get out of Chch more

[El Dopa]

While watching Te News last night it occurred to me that there's been a media frenzy over the London bombings, at last count 50 dead. Yesterday 50 Iraqis died in terrorist attacks. last week there was around 30, the week before..............?. These deaths rate 10 seconds on the news or a couple of column inches in the papers. There have been at minimum, ten times the number of dead, free Iraqis than those killed in New York, Madrid and London.
I guess one white person must be worth more than 100 or a even thousand ragheads.
No wonder they hate us.

Well, there's plenty of reporters in Iraq, but every time they step outside the green zone they run a high risk of ending up losing their heads live on some website. Or getting shot by the yanks.

I think it's more than a little disingeneous of you to imply that no-one's taking any notice of Iraq. Plenty of news outlets - e.g the BBC - have been keeping it pretty high profile, but what exactly are they meant to do? "OK, 10 days coverage for every 50 dead". With the current backlog, we'd be here until 2035.

[v.ros`]

Well, there's plenty of reporters in Iraq, but every time they step outside the green zone they run a high risk of ending up losing their heads live on some website. Or getting shot by the yanks.

I think it's more than a little disingeneous of you to imply that no-one's taking any notice of Iraq. Plenty of news outlets - e.g the BBC - have been keeping it pretty high profile, but what exactly are they meant to do? "OK, 10 days coverage for every 50 dead". With the current backlog, we'd be here until 2035.

so all of a sudden, 50 dead in london and it comes straight from behind into the news and stay for 10 days..? y is that..?

[Clockwork]

I'd suggest..... Terrorists kill dozens in Iraq; thats a Dog bites man Story. Terrorists kill dozens in London; that's a Man bites dog story. The main reason it's a bigger story is simply its novelty.

I don't think our media's "disproportionate" interest should be attributed to racist values. I believe this story has received more air time than the Spainish bombings too.... that's probably just a reflection of NZ's association with the region and its population. (ie it's closer to home)

[TonyB]

I'd suggest..... Terrorists kill dozens in Iraq; thats a Dog bites man Story. Terrorists kill dozens in London; that's a Man bites dog story. The main reason it's a bigger story is simply its novelty.

I don't think our media's "disproportionate" interest should be attributed to racist values. I believe this story has received more air time than the Spainish bombings too.... that's probably just a reflection of NZ's association with the region and its population. (ie it's closer to home)
Good point. There are a LOT of kiwi's in London and bugger all in Iraq etc- it's more relavent for us.

[Lou Girardin]

There's always some humour in the worst of tragedy's.
The US military in the UK banned all servicepeople from entering London while it was "unsafe".
While Londoners continue with their normal lives US soldiers are seen to cower on their bases.
This order has since been rescinded when the CO finally realised how pathetic it looked.
USA! FUCK YEAH!

[Wellyman]

In the paper today. they have an idea of who they think 3 out of the 4 suspected people who were responsible for the bombings.

[Lou Girardin]

They showed the 2 minutes silence in London this morning, it was absolutely awe-inspiring that everyone and everything stopped where they were and bowed their heads while Big Ben tolled. This action, more than anything, will show the terrorists and the rest world that people are not and will not be bowed by terror.
All Brits, born or citizen, should be immensely proud.

[Mooch]

A very moving day in London today of respect, my wife's work is close to Aldgate tube underground in London. Thousands of workers went down to the road surrounding this underground complex , all standing in silence , Ang was saying it was a very awe inspiring moment , thousands of people standing in absolute silence ,All the cars and buses normally on the road turn off the engines , no sound at all. Then the local church rang its bells in respect for the people who died. These were herd very clearly which normal would not happen at such a busy intersection. Thousands of people, not a sound to be herd!

Myself , I'm spending around 3 hours a day commuting on the tube system but fortunately / unfortunenatly wasn't caught up on the Tube last Thursday morning (slept in , what can I say !), so as a mark of respect , I was on a tube train at midday today to pay respect to those that died , and also as a message to terrorist , We are not afraid ,We will not live in fear , Your beliefs are wrong if you need to kill other human beings , Also , New Zealanders are not afraid , and stand united with all nations against terrorism , what ever your believes or region , If your killing other people , then your god will punish you , the loss of your lives doesn't make you a marter , rather a poor misguided sole , influenced by the wrong people , at the wrong time in your lives.

Mooch in London

[Paul in NZ]

Yes.

My sister emailed me this morning from the northern areas. Her ward (she works there OK) is full of some genuinely mad people and everyone, including the patients was utterly silent. She said it was a VERY powerful thing!

Well done the British! A bloody good response.... (followed by a few lethal james bondy type things I'm sure)

Cheers

[Biff]

Yup, London is back to normal again.

Do what you may terrorist scum - you'll never break the resolve or spirit of the British peoples.

[bugjuice]

just seen on the 6 o'clock news, that London (more specifically) along with most of the rest of England, stood still for 2 minutes yesterday..

Very impressive and powerful message.

[parsley]

just seen on the 6 o'clock news, that London (more specifically) along with most of the rest of England, stood still for 2 minutes yesterday..
Apparently they did the same in Germany - stopped all the buses and trains as well. Good on ya Fritz!

[scumdog]

After reading this thread and with the hope that any intended terrorists also reading the same type of info I hope they (the terrorists) realise they have accomplished NOTHING except killing a few innocents and pissing off a whole lot more people.

[TwoSeven]

They are just lucky they didnt blow up a pub. God forbid the loser who manages to spill the pints of a whole heap of poms. Would be worse if it had been in jordyville. Nuthin worse than a jordy with a suddenly short measure.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Well, sorry for being out of contact for so long, but I have been on the road. I was actually heading towards the M25 (London Ring Rd) when I heard the news. It didnt make much difference to the ring road, and the congestion hadn't reached out there until about 11, by which time I was happily off the M25 and down the M4 to Wales. However, all the electronic signs were warning "Avoid London Turn on Radio", which I think got everyone a bit nervous.

From what I've heard, London seems to have responded remarkably well as a whole, the people getting on with business, and the emergency services being very efficient. There was the story of the 88yr old woman who was going to the WWII memorial service, but found her bus had been cancelled. She was going to turn back, but when she found out that it was a terrorist attack (dirka dirka mohammed jihad!) she turned round and walked 5 and a half miles to get to the service! Basically she said 'look what happened last time we backed down to these type of people (WWII)', and refused to back down or change her plans because of them. Interesting....

There have been any number of debates going on in the talkback arena. There have been those who say it is all down to Iraq, those who say it is muslims, a muslim who claimed it was the CIA, and any number of other opinions.

I do not believe that Iraq had much to do with this at all, directly. The bombers were british born, and either through their social groups or through the newspapers/their experience, got so disillusioned with Britain that they decided to try something. Unfortunately, because of the great amount of media coverage suicide bombers have been getting, especially in the past 3 years, they turned to that as a way of making a point


I think the most interesting debate has been about the entire muslim faith.


....... Work in Progress ....... will edit more tomorrow.......