Benefits

[shrub]

This is a can of worms, and i want to try and avoid a left vs right slanging match so i'd appreciate thought before posting.

Benefits are an important part of our society because they are intended to provide a safety net when the wheels fall off life, but I think everyone would agree that things aren't working well. There are 2nd and 3rd generation "career' beneficiaries out there right now, with more following them, and that is wrong on a hell of a lot of levels, so what do we do?

Shit happened in my life a couple of times, and I have been on the DPB and on the dole, and I have to say it really sucks. The money is appalling - I budgetted my arse off, but still never had enough for anything beyond the basics and I got in the habit of checking my bank balance before I bought gas or groceries. I hated when the conversation at parties got to "so, what do you do for a job?" and I hated having to answer to DSW as they were then and sitting in the waiting area surrounded by other beneficiaries. I can't for the life of me see how ANYONE would actually choose to live like that, yet people do that for their whole lives. For me there was always a light at the end of the tunnel, but for a lot of people that tunnel is one way only, and I can't begin to imagine how fucked up that must feel.

It's bad for society - we have hundreds of thousands of people sitting on their arses, and that's kind of like pulling one plug lead off a bike engine. How much stronger would our economy be if even half of them had a job? They would earn and spend more, they would produce shit that could be exported or used here, do stuff that needs doing etc Crime would drop and hospital costs would drop as well as lower benefit payments.

So what do we do? Sit back and demand Pavlova Bennet gets tough and hands out cards controlling where people spend their money? Or make it harder to go on a benefit and stay on one? Nice idea, and pretty simple to do, but if the dole is harder to get or less, will Johnny Benneficiary decide "ah fuck it, the pricks have taken away my dole, I'll go and get a job"?

Do we go back to the days of the MOW and Railways where there were jobs for anyone and everyone? I can still remember my headmaster telling me that if I didn't lift my game I'd only ever work for the MOW because that was as bad as it got. The idea has merit because having work is good for you, getting a wage means you have more to spend (more tax, more economic activity etc), but it's a huge move from where we have been heading since the 80s, and where will the money come from?

Do we introduce mentors for kids in 2nd and 3rd generation benefit homes to help them get their act together? I remember a few years ago my neighbour's son was working on his car, and we got to talking about how much he loved fixing cars. I asked why he didn't do an apprenticeship and he looked at me "how do you get one of them?" I talked him through doing pre-trade training at tech, then what an apprenticeship was and where it would take him. He was interested and keen, but got distracted by weed and loser mates, and I sometimes wish I had kicked his arse until he got off it, but I was busy and had other shit to worry about.

Buggered if I know what the answer is, but there has to be one.

[Jantar]

Tough topics need tough decisons and when it comes to benefits there is none tougher. At present the benfits are too low, but there are too many people claiming them. If the number of beneficiaries could be reduced then the payout could be increased without costing the taxpayer any more, and maybe even make a saving.

My personal opinion is that we need to look at the reasons that these benefits were introduced and get back to the basics.

Superannuation: (Yes I'm only a few years away from retiring age, so this affects me as well.) The universal superannuation was introduced when the average life span was 72 for men and 75 for women. It was collectable at age 65. This age was later dropped to 60, and then increased back to 65. The average age span is now 78 for men and 80 for women, so I would have no difficulty in seeing the age for universal superannuation raised to 67.

Unemployment: This was introduced so that a working man who for some reason is put off from his job would have a basic income while searching for a new job. It wasn't there as a wage for teenagers leaving school. So lets make this simple. No-one can apply for the dole until they have paid income tax. (ie they have been in paid employment). The amount of time they can be on the dole is limited to 10% of the amount of time that they have been in paid employment. This would stop anyone from coming straight out of school and onto the dole.

DPB: This was introduced to assist the mother who's husband had suddenly departed the marriage. It was to tide her over that difficult period where she couldn't work to support herself while staying home to raise the children. It wasn't designed to allow teenage girls to get pregnant and have the child's future paid for by the taxpayer. So lets make the DPB only payable in those cases where a women has already been in a form of marriage (or civil union) and that relationship has broken up. Sorry girls; if you are only 16 and get pregnant at high school, either put the baby up for adoption, or let your parents pay to raise the child.

oK. I'm ready for the flames.

[James Deuce]

Jantar's awesome post.

Brilliant. I'm all for that with one caveat. Don't whip it out from under those who got on it under the conditions listed that won't be applicable in future.

[pzkpfw]

I'd like to see able-bodied people on benefits doing something.

They don't all spend all their time looking for or training for work, and in some cases there just aren't "real" jobs for them.

Picking up rubbish, gardening for old folk, cleaning graffiffittti. Whatever.

I think it's going to be an unavoidable fact of life. More and more people, more and more technology, fewer and fewer people needed.

[Taz]

I think it's going to be an unavoidable fact of life. More and more people, more and more technology, fewer and fewer people needed.

And this will cause the collapse of society. All great empires come to an end eventually.

[SimJen]

trouble is young kids of today feel they are owed something by society.
They see their heroes: Rappers, Sports stars, Actors etc raking in many millions for doing sweet FA and wonder why it is they can't have all that.
Waiting on the dole for the big time to hit, so they can become a professional bmx'er or skateboarder, or musician or drifter (in the car sense).
I'm all for tighter controls on getting the dole in the first place, Jantar has some good points!
I'd like to see it not being an option for school leavers!
I pay income protection insurance to protect me and my family/mortgage. I can't see myself ever needing a government handout, but if the shit really hit the fan it would be nice if there was something for me if I really needed it! Although I've paid tax for the last 20+ years! so its expected!

[shrub]

No-one can apply for the dole until they have paid income tax. (ie they have been in paid employment).

I like that idea, maybe if more people realised that working was actually pretty good and wages were a hell of a lot better than the dole it would no longer be seen as an alternative to work. The problem is there aren't enough jobs, so does that mean kids leave school without any form of income?

How's this for an idea: We make paid training schemes (quasi apprenticeships) available so if johnny leaves school with no work he can get on a 3 month scheme learning how to drive a forklift, and if he passes well and demonstrates a high level of attendance (never late or absent without a medical cert, and for no more than 2% of the course) the state subsidises him into a job. Maybe he doesn't drive a forklift at his new work, and all he does is sweep the floor, but as long as he turns up every day and works hard he gets a wage and his employer has a commitment to train and develop him. And for some of the kids a mentor could be available to meet once or twice a week (even over a beer) to check things were going well and work with the employer so he gets his needs met.

[SimJen]

The problem is there aren't enough jobs, so does that mean kids leave school without any form of income?

There are jobs if you look, its just some folks aren't willing to drop there sights. If I needed a job i'd work anywhere to support my family! Most aren't willing to "Settle" on a supermarket job or other low end work!
I work in the Steel Fabrication trade and we are always looking for guys. Problem is the vast majority who apply have several issues:
1. they have no CV
2. they have no experience
3. they often don't turn up to the interview or are late
4. biggest of all they are just plain unemployable!

[mashman]

I understand why someone would choose to be a doley. Sorry you didn't enjoy the experience. The pay may well be shit, but the hours are great (especially where there's kids involved) :yes:.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Just because there is a job sitting there waiting for someone to do it, doesn't mean it's gonna get done, especially if the pay is shit and the hours don't suit :shifty:

As for the way forwards. Cutting benefits off fully or partially will do more damage than good to those who are "legitimately" struggling (but fuck'em we'll catch some benefit cheats), ... let alone the social fallout etc... There is no way forwards whilst we're looking for the cause of the issue, which is OBVIOUS. There aren't enough jobs for everyone. More productive technology, tight budgets, ever changing "markets" etc.. have made certain of that... and in such a competitive and ever expensive marketplace, I can't see where these jobs are going to come from?

So if there aren't enough jobs, some people WILL have to be on the dole. I'd say get over it, but I can't say it with a straight face.

I know what the answer is though :)

[imdying]

Why should anybody be required to work? They're not your slaves. Who declared having a job and 'being productive' as the be all end all? What's wrong with being happy with smoking weed and hanging out with your loser mates? Who gets to label them losers in the first place? Breeders and go getters? Like they're any better?

Given those things... if society wants to build and play in their little holier than thou sand pit, they're required to support those who do not. Or they'll just take it anyway.

[Taz]

There are jobs if you look, its just some folks aren't willing to drop there sights. If I needed a job i'd work anywhere to support my family! Most aren't willing to "Settle" on a supermarket job or other low end work!
I work in the Steel Fabrication trade and we are always looking for guys. Problem is the vast majority who apply have several issues:
1. they have no CV
2. they have no experience
3. they often don't turn up to the interview or are late
4. biggest of all they are just plain unemployable!

So how does the school leaver get steel fabrication experience?

[Bald Eagle]

So how does the school leaver get sheet metal fabrication experience?

De-constructing dairy / liqour store roller doors ?

[Str8 Jacket]

trouble is young kids of today feel they are owed something by society.
They see their heroes: Rappers, Sports stars, Actors etc raking in many millions for doing sweet FA and wonder why it is they can't have all that.


And in some ways I think that this is a problem. The "stars" actually put in a hell of alot of hours if they want to be successful. They often have to make personal sacrifices that some of us couldn't imagine making in orde to be successful, it just LOOKS easy.....

Parents have to be to blame in some cases but not all cases. You can lead a horse to water etc etc

I agree with your hand-out mentality and believe that this may have come about from this Nanny state we are/ have created. Laziness is easy and let's be honest work aint all that glamorous in any shape or form.

Jantar's post say's it all really.

[shrub]

There are jobs if you look, its just some folks aren't willing to drop there sights. If I needed a job i'd work anywhere to support my family! Most aren't willing to "Settle" on a supermarket job or other low end work!
I work in the Steel Fabrication trade and we are always looking for guys. Problem is the vast majority who apply have several issues:
1. they have no CV
2. they have no experience
3. they often don't turn up to the interview or are late
4. biggest of all they are just plain unemployable!

How can you drop your sights from the dole? I agree though, people need to be willing to do anything, and a few years ago a business I owned got in the shit so I stood outside a nightclub from 11.00 pm until 0400 all weekend dealing with drunks and morons (on the bright side women love bouncers...).

My daughter is 18, very well presented and outgoing. She has done barrista training off her own bat and has visited every cafe, every restaurant, fast food dump and supermarket in the area with her CV, and has a 2 monthly call cycle. She has been doing that for nearly 6 months and has had about a weeks casual work out of it because she has no experience and there are a hundred other school kids doing the same thing.

making people employable and giving them experience is the key - and that includes having a CV and turning up on time. Some of them just don't know that shit, so teach them and mentor them. If they continue to drop out - 3 strikes and you're on your own with a card that allows you to attend a kitchen for 3 healthy and simple meals a day.

[avgas]

Perhaps I am just cold and heartless. But for me its simple.

Work or Die.

You want support? Get married or live at home - why should society be your crutch. You are a man/women of your own decisions........you make bad ones you should be fucked the arse. Not everyone else. It was your decision.

If the govt really wants to help, customize a job for every person. Get the wheelchair enabled behind a desk, the retards picking up rubbish and the mums delivering powerbills. Its not all rocket science.

Max benefit payment made in a row is 5 weeks. That is all the rest of us get before we lose all our money.

[SimJen]

So how does the school leaver get steel fabrication experience?

the thing is, if we advertise for experienced people, then we get all the non-experienced ones applying.
It is difficult to get experience and you have to expect people to not want to train someone if they have a busy business and just need skilled help.
We have a young fella that comes in after school and gets experience, also we have just had a lad on a gateway course from the school thats worked with us for a few weeks.
These can lead on to apprenticeships if they are the right characters for it.
There are plenty of jobs available if they want to go looking, perhaps not enough for everybody on the benefit, but then a percentage are unemployable anyway!

[nodrog]

I understand having to give money to those who cant work because they have had an accident, or need to stay at home and look after something that fell out of their vagina, or are black.

What I dont understand is why the fuck we have to give money to couples where one or both of them are working.

Your wages dont cover the cost of the next kid you want, or daycare? Toughshit, keep it in your pants then, or budget like everybody else who wants something.

[Str8 Jacket]

I understand having to give money to those who cant work because they have had an accident, or need to stay at home and look after something that fell out of their vagina, or are black.

What I dont understand is why the fuck we have to give money to couples where one or both of them are working.

Your wages dont cover the cost of the next kid you want, or daycare? Toughshit, keep it in your pants then, or budget like everybody else who wants something.

Common sense? Don't be so bloody stupid, that's been replaced by NCEA.....

[nodrog]

Common sense? Don't be so bloody stupid, that's been replaced by NCEA.....

what the fuck has the space shuttle got to do with it?

[bogan]

I know a of people who just can't get work, very well presented uni graduates, applying for pretty much anything. One just got his first bit of work in over a year, teaching people how to use some new pay and display meters for two weeks (the interface is retarded :facepalm:). If these guys are struggling, what hope is there for career beneficiaries who have been kicked off the dole? We won't have to pay for them anymore, but it doesn't solve anything, one could even argue crime could rise which would cost us more.

Slash minimum wage to encourage national production over exporting raw material and importing goods. Or if there are only a finite number of jobs to go around, implement some population control (sterilisation for criminals etc).

And stop the politicians selling NZ's future for a few election votes!

[Str8 Jacket]

what the fuck has the space shuttle got to do with it?

Hopefully we can use it to start transporting useless (dole bludging) citizens to outer space. Never to return.....

[nodrog]

Hopefully we can use it to start transporting useless (dole bludging) citizens to outer space. Never to return.....

fucken space cadets

[avgas]

fucken spaced cadets

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Banditbandit]

Superannuation: (Yes I'm only a few years away from retiring age, so this affects me as well.) The universal superannuation was introduced when the average life span was 72 for men and 75 for women. It was collectable at age 65. This age was later dropped to 60, and then increased back to 65. The average age span is now 78 for men and 80 for women, so I would have no difficulty in seeing the age for universal superannuation raised to 67.

My undertanding was that supperannuation was originally for people who eeded it and it was means tested ... the growing middle class demanded as of right .. because they have been "paying taxes all my klife" ..

THis was trhe decision that made it unaffordable ... so MPs who retire on 80% of the their MPs salaries after three terms are also entitled to superannuation ... Don Brash is entitled to universal superannuation .. (what's his personal worth) Bob Jones is entitled to universal superannuation (what's his worth?) . Not picking on these peiople as such .. but people like that do not need universal super ...

return it to means testing ..


Unemployment: This was introduced so that a working man who for some reason is put off from his job would have a basic income while searching for a new job. It wasn't there as a wage for teenagers leaving school. So lets make this simple. No-one can apply for the dole until they have paid income tax. (ie they have been in paid employment). The amount of time they can be on the dole is limited to 10% of the amount of time that they have been in paid employment. This would stop anyone from coming straight out of school and onto the dole.


Sort of like this idea .. BUT ... When I left school (early 70s) there was a massive unemployment crisis in Godzone - 2,000 people were unemployed ... later it peaked around 200,000.

If we have more workers than jobs then the idea of not gettign the benefit until you've had a job is punative ... I'm more inclined to think the school leavers should be in training ... BUT the problem thee is that stduent allowance is less than the dole ... it should be the same .. at least then we are paying for productive labour designed to increase sklls and employability. At present we are paying a minmal amount for training and more for doing nothing ... that does not seem right to me ..


DPB: This was introduced to assist the mother who's husband had suddenly departed the marriage. It was to tide her over that difficult period where she couldn't work to support herself while staying home to raise the children. It wasn't designed to allow teenage girls to get pregnant and have the child's future paid for by the taxpayer. So lets make the DPB only payable in those cases where a women has already been in a form of marriage (or civil union) and that relationship has broken up. Sorry girls; if you are only 16 and get pregnant at high school, either put the baby up for adoption, or let your parents pay to raise the child.

Adoption is not the best answer .. and what happens if the parents refuse to support the child or the mother? And accidents do happen - to married peopel as well as unmarried people ... and what about de facto relationships? And it is most often men who create solo mothers by walking out - not women who deliberately get pregnant ...

And the other parents are expected to pay child support - have you seen the sise of child support payments still owed ? $1.8BILLION last year (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3882606/Absent-dads-owe-billions-in-unpaid-child-support) bet it's more now -Collecting that would go a long way to reducing our welfare budget. (Bet there's a few in this forum who owe payments ...)

Instead of hitting solo mothers what about the absent fathers who owe us, the tax payer, $1.8Billion +

And how then does the mother feed the child? Yes, I agree with a lot of what you say . but the benefit was to ensure the wealfare of the child was taken care off - not the wealthfare of the mother ..


oK. I'm ready for the flames.

SOrry to disappoint . but no flames ..

[Banditbandit]

I like that idea, maybe if more people realised that working was actually pretty good and wages were a hell of a lot better than the dole it would no longer be seen as an alternative to work. The problem is there aren't enough jobs, so does that mean kids leave school without any form of income?



WORK IS CRAP !!! Who's bright idea was that? What a stupid way to organise a society.

There is no diginity ion labour any more (well for a very few artisans and a couple of other professions there might be)

Mostly it was organised for the benefit of the capitalist class to exploit the others ... why the fuck should I value working for the man to make a profit and drive a Merc or Roller and pay me shit wages so I can barely survive ?????

[James Deuce]

Why should anybody be required to work? They're not your slaves. Who declared having a job and 'being productive' as the be all end all? What's wrong with being happy with smoking weed and hanging out with your loser mates? Who gets to label them losers in the first place? Breeders and go getters? Like they're any better?

Given those things... if society wants to build and play in their little holier than thou sand pit, they're required to support those who do not. Or they'll just take it anyway.

Who are you and wtf have you done with imdying?

[Jantar]

My undertanding was that supperannuation was originally for people who needed it and it was means tested ... .....
No. It was origionally a seperate payment made as a tax of 1/6d in the pound earned, and payable to everyone on retirement. Later that 1/6d in the pound was incorporated into the general tax take, but the super was still payable to everyone.

Means testing came in in later, and although the super was still paid to everone who retired, those who earned more than a certain sum paid an extra tax of 25% of their earnings until such time as the extra tax equalled their pension. This was later abandoned as those who did have extra income were also the ones most able to hide it in trusts etc.

[Blackshear]

Was on the dole for about 5 months looking for a job 3 years back, WINZ is seriously shit when it comes to helping people find jobs. You get a minimum of 2 jobs to choose from (And maximum as it turns out, they wouldn't let me pick more than 2 from a list of 80-100) every week, not including the 'I asked for a job at these places;' sheet.

I even had a confirmed and sealed arborist job in wellington, complete with transport and a room, but they wouldn't agree to a 2 week trial (my choice, moving down an entire country and leaving your mates/family behind etc) before I signed the dotted line. I ended up not taking it because they decided it also wasn't right for my bike to get re-reg'd and WOF'd at their expense so I could get off the dole and onto a 6-month minimum contract.

Including $70 per week rent, had to buy my own food etc, I was receiving a massive $126 to live on a week. That leaves me... Err... Well I could afford about 7 $1 soft drinks a week :Punk:

[bluninja]

Not enough jobs? So why are there so many people working 48+ hours a week? If people weren't so greedy doing loads of overtime, there'd be enough working hours to go around.

[Blackshear]

Not enough jobs? So why are there so many people working 48+ hours a week? If people weren't so greedy doing loads of overtime, there'd be enough working hours to go around.

I'd be willing to bet a small amount of those doing OT would be the people who had no choice but to step down a financial rung, even further taking up more slots for school kiddies or young guys.

All I pretty much heard while hunting my ass off for a job was 'You look good, but the sad truth is that I have so many people with skills pouring out their asses, it would be illogical to not hire them.'

[bluninja]

All I pretty much heard while hunting my ass off for a job was 'You look good, but the sad truth is that I have so many people with skills pouring out their asses, it would be illogical to not hire them.'

So, have you tried getting work as a model? :no:

When I was looking for work, I got people asking for IT skills and NZ experience.....I find I just changed Microsoft to US settings and everything is fine. <_<

I have been unemployed, and what really pissed me off was the people (in the UK) sitting on their blanket drinking pish and begging, whilst I'm walking from interview to interview (no cash for car, petrol or pish). Many places wouldn't take me on because I was overskilled, or overqualified and would be gone as soon as a decent job turned up.

I think benefits in most circumstances should be conditional. If you are out of work for 6 months say, benefits should be tied to you upskilling or reskilling on an approved training course. No effort, no benefit.

As for the experience side, I think the government should subsidise people into jobs to the tune of the benefit they would have paid initially, with it tapering off over 6months to a year. The business gives the inexperienced, experience, and gets 'cheap' labour when they are least productive.

[XxKiTtiExX]

Not enough jobs? So why are there so many people working 48+ hours a week? If people weren't so greedy doing loads of overtime, there'd be enough working hours to go around.

So that they can afford to pay their own bills perhaps.

[blue rider]

Not enough jobs? So why are there so many people working 48+ hours a week? If people weren't so greedy doing loads of overtime, there'd be enough working hours to go around.

oh my god, your a funny guy, surly you joke?

maybe people in trades, or in union get over times, but the typical office drone, working through her/his lunch/smoko etc is not getting over time. if lucky it counts as time in Lieu :laugh:

one of my team mates just left, her job was not filled, we are getting re-structured and well i will do unpaid overtime for a while.....maybe i get time in lieu :laugh:

that was funny seriously

[mashman]

I think benefits in most circumstances should be conditional. If you are out of work for 6 months say, benefits should be tied to you upskilling or reskilling on an approved training course. No effort, no benefit.


... No money? that only leaves crime or death, or a mixture of both depending on desperation levels... why not just shoot people who don't have jobs and be done with it, instead of wasting air and fuckin society up with their antics.

[Spearfish]

Unemployment isn't working.

[scumdog]

Brilliant. I'm all for that with one caveat. Don't whip it out from under those who got on it under the conditions listed that won't be applicable in future.

I'm with James 2 here - plus drug-testing for those on the dole - after all they ARE meant to be job-seeking and being a stoner is not a pre-requisite for many jobs I've heard of.

[scumdog]

So that they can afford to pay their own bills perhaps.

Bills for luxuries rather than necessities in a lot of cases.

[XxKiTtiExX]

Bills for luxuries rather than necessities in a lot of cases.


Not always.

[scumdog]

Your wages dont cover the cost of the next kid you want, or daycare? Toughshit, keep it in your pants then, or budget like everybody else who wants something.

Nicely put.

Breeding is not a right.

[scumdog]

Just because there is a job sitting there waiting for someone to do it, doesn't mean it's gonna get done, especially if the pay is shit and the hours don't suit :shifty:


That sounds like a lazy bastards explanation of why they don't work..:shifty:

Get a job - any job, and there's a good chance it will lead to a better one.

[scumdog]

Not always.

I didn't say 'always'...

[blue rider]

what i don't get by those that propose the doing away of "benefits", what type of society do they envision?

at what time retirement and for whom?
superannuation was meant to alleviate poverty for people of a certain age.

retirement age was set to be sensible and should have little to do with how old people can get but with how long people have contributed.

surely a man having started at 14/15 years in a trade, steel work, roading etc will have more physical problem continuing their jobs at 60, than some pencil pusher who finished Uni with a PHD at 40? The same counts for females.?

Do we really want a country in which Grand Parents compete for MacDo jobs with the kids?
And who still employs people over 50?


DPB
females don't drop babys because they have got nothing else to do, and all by themselves! Usually it involves a man, someone has to donate the sperm.
Well at least I have yet to meet a women who had a baby because she was bored, and thought the benefit was a great incentive.

How about, sex ed in school (honest education, not some abstinence only horse manure), access to condoms (for the boys, someone teach the boys to keep it dressed!), the pill for the girls, and abortion legal and without any moral guilt and shame attached.
And this for all children regardless of their religion. That might help reduce unwanted pregnancies and the need for a mother/child benefit.

I hope that men realize that a women afraid of pregnancy=poverty will not have sex.....married or in a relationship or just as a one niter.....the times of headaches again...?

Unemployment benefits

how many people in the south Island alone have lost their jobs this year with closing of factories etc.
How many of those are in small communities where such a closure is not easily replaced with an opening.

we have had a bit of a financial crisis these last two years, how many of those that lost their jobs in the insurance, mortgage brokering sector and others have found new jobs?

I would assume that quite a few people that are currently on the benefit have actually contributed to the funds by paying tax many years that they have held a job.

And all those people on the 'benefit' still pay tax, GST on every transaction, be it for food, fuel, or cigarettes.
For what its worth they are still contributing, also I think the benefits themselves are taxed?

If we cut all these 'benefits', what type of society will we create?

A libertarian wet dream close to the industrial times around 1890?
Yei!!!!

[mashman]

That sounds like a lazy bastards explanation of why they don't work..:shifty:

Get a job - any job, and there's a good chance it will lead to a better one.

awwwwwwwww :violin:

there's also just as much of a chance that you'll end up in a string of shitty jobs...

[FJRider]

awwwwwwwww :violin:

there's also just as much of a chance that you'll end up in a string of shitty jobs...

Maybe ...

BUT ...

THEY WILL BE WORKING ...

and earning more money than they would get on the dole ...

[mashman]

Maybe ...

BUT ...

THEY WILL BE WORKING ...

and earning more money than they would get on the dole ...

:rofl:... money isn't everything!

[bogan]

:rofl:... money isn't everything!

But making a positive contribution to society counts for a hell of a lot in my books!

[FJRider]

:rofl:... money isn't everything!

It pays the bills ..

[mashman]

But making a positive contribution to society counts for a hell of a lot in my books!

They're already doing us all a favour by helping to keep inflation down... they're not putting one of us out of a job either... pretty positive in my eyes :shifty:... give 'em a pay rise :shit:.

At the end of the day society has tinkered with benefit systems in various ways, all of which have proven to be failures. Why not make being unemployed a job, officially that is :drinknsin



It pays the bills ..


So does the govt

[scumdog]

Why not make being unemployed a job, officially that is :drinknsin

I like it - make those on the unemployment benefit do some work:Punk:

[bogan]

They're already doing us all a favour by helping to keep inflation down... they're not putting one of us out of a job either... pretty positive in my eyes :shifty:... give 'em a pay rise :shit:.

At the end of the day society has tinkered with benefit systems in various ways, all of which have proven to be failures. Why not make being unemployed a job, officially that is :drinknsin

But is their effect on inflation greater than their effect on taxes? Have to look at the big picture.

In saying that, I think it is more the fault of the system not utilising all it's resources, rather than individuals screwing over the system. And yes, more tinkering is required, but future stable tinkering, not vote-buying tinkering.

[Winston001]

Simply as a matter of interest, in the United States, state income taxes include unemployment insurance. If you lose your job you are entitled to a certain number of weeks of the dole depending upon how long you worked, being a percentage of your original wage.

After that you go onto social welfare which is a lower payment but includes food stamps and other help. Still, being on welfare in the USA is a source of shame.

[mashman]

I like it - make those on the unemployment benefit do some work:Punk:

ha ha ha haaaaaa... reverse psychology...



But is their effect on inflation greater than their effect on taxes? Have to look at the big picture.

In saying that, I think it is more the fault of the system not utilising all it's resources, rather than individuals screwing over the system. And yes, more tinkering is required, but future stable tinkering, not vote-buying tinkering.


the big picture :rofl:... nah, noone likes looking at it... so they "make" their own and blame the Models later on.

Well if they ain't willing to "offer" for first rate health and education for all (irrespective of cost, tui), wtf do they expect. Aye, gotta agree there, the system is utterly pooked.

[blue rider]

Simply as a matter of interest, in the United States, state income taxes include unemployment insurance. If you lose your job you are entitled to a certain number of weeks of the dole depending upon how long you worked, being a percentage of your original wage.

After that you go onto social welfare which is a lower payment but includes food stamps and other help. Still, being on welfare in the USA is a source of shame.


explain this to me please

if I work and pay my taxes, i pay into the pot from which 'social welfare' "un-employment benefits' 'sickness benefits' etc are paid out.

everyone working is paying taxes towards these services so that in times of hardship, i.e. sickness, un-employment etc I/they can apply for these services. This will prevent me/them from loosing my/their house and feed the familiy, which surely is better than homelessness and begging in the streets


If one quits their job in New Zealand/Europe or the States for that matter one will have a stand down period and not receive a dime.
If the company that one works for re-structures or closes and people loose their jobs they can and should apply for a service that they have helped fund while being in gainfully employed!

Where is the shame in that?

social welfare is in the interest of the taxpayer....as social unrest due to poverty is not the solution.
it is a service that is paid for by the Taxpayer, being a taxpayer myself, I rather have the unemployed, sick and otherwise needy or unable, in housing and food, than homeless and hungry roaming the streets.

[Katman]

I understand why someone would choose to be a doley.

I heard the shuffling of feet coming towards the office one day and a head appeared through the door with the words "You gotta job?" I said "Sorry mate, I don't". He then replied "Can you sign this?"

I wanted to tell him to sit down and I'd tell him why he'd never get a job - but then figured neither of us actually cared.

[Winston001]

explain this to me please



In most OECD countries having a social welfare safety net is an accepted part of social democracy but only because these are rich countries. Its worth remembering that about 4 billion people have no such support at all.

There used to be a sense of shame at accepting charity: the dole etc fall into that category. There are people on here who have refused the dole as a matter of pride and found jobs - any job, to keep their self-respect.

However whatever the perspective might be in the USA, there shouldn't be shame in NZ for accepting state support. If there is a problem - arguably there isn't one - it is the families who regard benefits as a way of life. That is worth changing for their sake as well as the rest of us.

[Smifffy]

Jantar's great post

Mostly agree.


I'd like to see able-bodied people on benefits doing something.

They don't all spend all their time looking for or training for work, and in some cases there just aren't "real" jobs for them.

Picking up rubbish, gardening for old folk, cleaning graffiffittti. Whatever.

I think it's going to be an unavoidable fact of life. More and more people, more and more technology, fewer and fewer people needed.

Nah Bro. Better to do the graffiti and drop the litter, it fits in better with closing time hours.



Given those things... if society wants to build and play in their little holier than thou sand pit, they're required to support those who do not. Or they'll just take it anyway.

Personally I'd prefer that they did come and take it themselves, instead of having the government do their pinching for them. At least then I might get the opportunity to at least wing a few.


So how does the school leaver get steel fabrication experience?

Starts by sweeping the floor? Even back in the days when work was plentiful, many people that went into the trades were sweeping workshop floor before they left school. Some enlightened employers would also take them on through the holidays, but an apprenticeship might also be dependant on getting good marks as well.

Perhaps I am just cold and heartless. But for me its simple.

Work or Die.

You want support? Get married or live at home - why should society be your crutch. You are a man/women of your own decisions........you make bad ones you should be fucked the arse. Not everyone else. It was your decision.

If the govt really wants to help, customize a job for every person. Get the wheelchair enabled behind a desk, the retards picking up rubbish and the mums delivering powerbills. Its not all rocket science.

Max benefit payment made in a row is 5 weeks. That is all the rest of us get before we lose all our money.
Food for thought


I understand having to give money to those who cant work because they have had an accident, or need to stay at home and look after something that fell out of their vagina, or are black.

What I dont understand is why the fuck we have to give money to couples where one or both of them are working.

Your wages dont cover the cost of the next kid you want, or daycare? Toughshit, keep it in your pants then, or budget like everybody else who wants something.

Like the guy I know on 100k pa who is getting over 3 hundy a fortnight in working for families while Mum is at home?

I know a of people who just can't get work, very well presented uni graduates, applying for pretty much anything. One just got his first bit of work in over a year, teaching people how to use some new pay and display meters for two weeks (the interface is retarded :facepalm:). If these guys are struggling, what hope is there for career beneficiaries who have been kicked off the dole? We won't have to pay for them anymore, but it doesn't solve anything, one could even argue crime could rise which would cost us more.

Slash minimum wage to encourage national production over exporting raw material and importing goods. Or if there are only a finite number of jobs to go around, implement some population control (sterilisation for criminals etc).

And stop the politicians selling NZ's future for a few election votes!

When they chose their degrees did they ever consider the employment prospects and job market in those fields? I know companies that go every year to the unis in order to try and attract graduates to work for them, not many bachelor's of sport's performance or Master's of Women's studies get hired though, I will admit.


WORK IS CRAP !!! Who's bright idea was that? What a stupid way to organise a society.

There is no diginity ion labour any more (well for a very few artisans and a couple of other professions there might be)

Mostly it was organised for the benefit of the capitalist class to exploit the others ... why the fuck should I value working for the man to make a profit and drive a Merc or Roller and pay me shit wages so I can barely survive ?????

Never a truer word spoken brother. Just let me keep working for that man in his Roller, and let me keep those wages, and anyone who doesn't want or like to work can make their own arrangements, without being entitled to any of my hard earned.


Not enough jobs? So why are there so many people working 48+ hours a week? If people weren't so greedy doing loads of overtime, there'd be enough working hours to go around.

You mean like the taxi drivers in Auckland, doing the jobs that Kiwis just won't do?


... No money? that only leaves crime or death, or a mixture of both depending on desperation levels... why not just shoot people who don't have jobs and be done with it, instead of wasting air and fuckin society up with their antics.

I think the cops have already started that ;)


I'm with James 2 here - plus drug-testing for those on the dole - after all they ARE meant to be job-seeking and being a stoner is not a pre-requisite for many jobs I've heard of.

Agreed, driving past the front of the local courthouse the other day, the thought also occured to me that every person blocking the stairway and smoking, could be asked to contribute to their legal aid bill to the tune of 1 pack of smokes a week, for the duration of their trial. The country would save a shitload.


:rofl:... money isn't everything!

That's true for a lot of people. Mostly the people that want to take my money off me.


explain this to me please

if I work and pay my taxes, i pay into the pot from which 'social welfare' "un-employment benefits' 'sickness benefits' etc are paid out.

everyone working is paying taxes towards these services so that in times of hardship, i.e. sickness, un-employment etc I/they can apply for these services. This will prevent me/them from loosing my/their house and feed the familiy, which surely is better than homelessness and begging in the streets


If one quits their job in New Zealand/Europe or the States for that matter one will have a stand down period and not receive a dime.
If the company that one works for re-structures or closes and people loose their jobs they can and should apply for a service that they have helped fund while being in gainfully employed!

Where is the shame in that?

social welfare is in the interest of the taxpayer....as social unrest due to poverty is not the solution.
it is a service that is paid for by the Taxpayer, being a taxpayer myself, I rather have the unemployed, sick and otherwise needy or unable, in housing and food, than homeless and hungry roaming the streets.

I think we are predominantly talking about the people who are relying on the tax contributions made by their great-grandparents to fund their social welfare payments....

[blue rider]

In most OECD countries having a social welfare safety net is an accepted part of social democracy but only because these are rich countries. Its worth remembering that about 4 billion people have no such support at all.

rubbish....
NZ had social welfare for quite some time, since 1930 the Unemployment act...
"Social welfare in New Zealand is mostly funded through general taxation. Since the 1980s welfare has been provided on the basis of need. The exception is the universal superannuation."
wikipedia http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1130142349


For the germans we had un-employemnt benefits thanks to the "Eiserne Bismarck" whom no-one could call a socialist wall flower...<_<

Paternalistic welfare state
"Germany had a tradition of welfare programs in Prussia and Saxony that began as early as the 1840s. In the 1880s his social insurance programs were the first in the world and became the model for other countries and the basis of the modern welfare state.[40] Bismarck introduced old age pensions, accident insurance, medical care and unemployment insurance. "

wikipeida http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck

the US of A had F D Roosevelt and the "New Deal"

all sound conservative politics in my eyes and understanding


There used to be a sense of shame at accepting charity: the dole etc fall into that category. There are people on here who have refused the dole as a matter of pride and found jobs - any job, to keep their self-respect.

This is no charity, the programme are paid for by the tax payer, all taxpayers....not just the ones who might be for a Darwin type of society were the fittest is the only one to survive. And for those who refuse the dole in times of hardship, have they thought about their families? Those who depend on them?
Pride before hunger is an ugly bed fellow.



However whatever the perspective might be in the USA, there shouldn't be shame in NZ for accepting state support. If there is a problem - arguably there isn't one - it is the families who regard benefits as a way of life. That is worth changing for their sake as well as the rest of us.

The 2nd/3rd generation welfare abusers, how many are there, how much money is spend on them.....real dollar figures not just simple propaganda. The same counts for the loose women and girls that have babys to get a benefit, all on their own without the help of a man....it just does not add up.

And before we start stoning people for being lazy, might we spend time and have a look at were those generations of unemployed/unemployable dole abuser live, how was the schooling they recieved etc.
Their might be method to madness.
In any case there is no profit for business in 100% employment as wages usually go up and finding staff is a bit harder than in an economy were good jobs paying living wages are spare. We need under educated cheap labor to do certain jobs, always did, always will, and the more unemployed people a country has the cheaper wages get....!

The proposals coming from the Welfare Reform Group are all about shaming....
forcing people to be spot tested for drug abuse?
Are poor people now all criminals?
Are all single mothers dope heads? Are all single dads P cooks?
Will we as a society really allow for people to be treated like criminals before they have committed a crime, to make sure they are humbled, scared, humiliated and just don't apply for that benefit they should apply for?
And this is in the interest for whom? ?
So no money for societal welfare, but money for random drug testing of poor people needing financial assistance?

I just don't get how this can be considered sound politics.

[Winston001]

Paternalistic welfare state
"Germany had a tradition of welfare programs in Prussia and Saxony that began as early as the 1840s. In the 1880s his social insurance programs were the first in the world and became the model for other countries and the basis of the modern welfare state.[40] Bismarck introduced old age pensions, accident insurance, medical care and unemployment insurance. "

wikipeida http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck

the US of A had F D Roosevelt and the "New Deal"

all sound conservative politics in my eyes and understanding

The New Deal under FDR was a Democratic policy = Labour = Leftist/Socialist.

I'd never have thought of Otto Von Bismarck as a socialist but in terms of those times, he introduced very advanced social democrat policies. By contrast even today the USA struggles with arguments over such welfare programs.






And before we start stoning people for being lazy, might we spend time and have a look at were those generations of unemployed/unemployable dole abuser live, how was the schooling they recieved etc.
Their might be method to madness.

Agreed. I'm only posting here to enter a few facts. I have no interest in beneficiary bashing.


In any case there is no profit for business in 100% employment as wages usually go up....We need under educated cheap labor to do certain jobs, always did, always will, and the more unemployed people a country has the cheaper wages get....!



You see, this is one of the canards thrown recklessly around in discussions on employment viz. "politicians need 4% unemployment to make the economy work".

Utter nonsense.

A few decades ago it was suggested (Keynes?) that a certain level (4%) of unemployment was inevitable in modern society. This was twisted by political leftists into saying that unemployment was required - a clever but dishonest reinterpretation.

Research of past societies indicates that full employment as we enjoy is a 20th century phenomenon. Having no paid work, relying on poor houses and charity has been normal for centuries. More than 50% of people lived in the countryside where basic food and shelter could be obtained.

Proof? Go to India and watch the poor. Twisting branches off trees for firewood, begging, picking up dung, cleaning doorsteps, whatever it takes, just to get through another day. If there is a job it pays 40 rupees. ($NZ1/day).

Its far worse in Africa.

[scumdog]

And before we start stoning people for being lazy, might we spend time and have a look at were those generations of unemployed/unemployable dole abuser live, how was the schooling they recieved etc.


Or the schooling they DIDN'T receive.

Often by their own actions.

More than a few mums just see school as a way to get the kids out of the house (do the kids actually GO to school?)

And some kids make no attempt to learn while at school and disrupt others if they go there at all.

And some kids are actively discouraged from attending school or learning if they do go to school.

So they set themselves on a path to being a leech on society.....

[Spearfish]

what i don't get by those that propose the doing away of "benefits", what type of society do they envision?






DPB
females don't drop babys because they have got nothing else to do, and all by themselves! Usually it involves a man, someone has to donate the sperm.
Well at least I have yet to meet a women who had a baby because she was bored, and thought the benefit was a great incentive.

How about, sex ed in school (honest education, not some abstinence only horse manure), access to condoms (for the boys, someone teach the boys to keep it dressed!), the pill for the girls, and abortion legal and without any moral guilt and shame attached.
And this for all children regardless of their religion. That might help reduce unwanted pregnancies and the need for a mother/child benefit.

I hope that men realize that a women afraid of pregnancy=poverty will not have sex.....married or in a relationship or just as a one niter.....the times of headaches again...?


I would love to be able to agree with you.....many, many of the girls in west auckland don't have much self worth and come from families with even less, unfortunately they see the DPB as a better supply of money at over $650 (plus the other bits they get) per week compared to the "job seekers" Dole.
I didn't really go along with the idea of women/girls using DPB as a career option until I caught up with a mate who is concerned for is daughter, every month so far this year atleast one of her friends has dropped a sprog just to go on the DPB, they network, encourage each other and are pushing it as a real option for their friends.
Him and his wife have raised an intelligent, confident young lady who can do anything she puts her mind to so fingers crossed she can get through this "stage" without taking the easy(?) path and opting out of her own future.

[mashman]

Or the schooling they DIDN'T receive.

Often by their own actions.

More than a few mums just see school as a way to get the kids out of the house (do the kids actually GO to school?)

And some kids make no attempt to learn while at school and disrupt others if they go there at all.

And some kids are actively discouraged from attending school or learning if they do go to school.

So they set themselves on a path to being a leech on society.....

What utter poop. You've just described my school career (more or less) and I ain't exactly a leech on society. Try the stereotype behind door number 2, perhaps it will fit :)

[avgas]

awwwwwwwww :violin:

there's also just as much of a chance that you'll end up in a string of shitty jobs...
I found a bit of string in some pigshit once as a kid. Pulling it out I am pretty sure it was endless.
Same applies here.
I don't care if people have an endless string of pointless jobs, so long as they don't cost me in mine. Its the same reasoning I use with people who smoke, drink, go to church on sunday. I don't care 2 flicks for them so long as they don't cost me directly.

[avgas]

And before we start stoning people for being lazy, might we spend time and have a look at were those generations of unemployed/unemployable dole abuser live, how was the schooling they recieved etc.
This is true.
Perhaps the easier solution would be to simply terminate all people who apply for a benefit. Break the cycle.

Works for rabbits that get into the vegies.

[Woodman]

And who still employs people over 50?




I do, or close to 50 anyway.

Less sick days.
Good work ethics.
Only need to be told once.
Lots of inititiative.

[shrub]

The 2nd/3rd generation welfare abusers, how many are there, how much money is spend on them.....real dollar figures not just simple propaganda. The same counts for the loose women and girls that have babys to get a benefit, all on their own without the help of a man....it just does not add up.

A very, very good point. I have just read the Welfare Working Group report on reducing long term benefit dependency (http://ips.ac.nz/WelfareWorkingGroup/Downloads/Options%20Paper/Welfare-Working-Group-Reducing-Long-Term-Benefit-Dependency-The-Options.pdf), and they claim that: "12,000 people aged 28-64 years on the Unemployment Benefit who have spent more than 5 years out of the past 10 years on a benefit (as at June 2009)", which is a lot of people, but still only 0.51% of the labour force or 0.27% of the population (http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/lmr/lmr-hlfs-jun-11.pdf). 0.27% of the population means 1 person in 370 is a long term dole bludger. Is that a big problem? I don't think so.


And before we start stoning people for being lazy, might we spend time and have a look at were those generations of unemployed/unemployable dole abuser live, how was the schooling they recieved etc.

Odds are pretty good that 99% of those 12,000 didn't grow up in the kind of home we did. I'd lay money that very few of them had completed school and even less had done further training. How many people who went to a private/high decile school and had parents working are long term unemployed?



In any case there is no profit for business in 100% employment as wages usually go up and finding staff is a bit harder than in an economy were good jobs paying living wages are spare. We need under educated cheap labor to do certain jobs, always did, always will, and the more unemployed people a country has the cheaper wages get....!

Funny you should say that. Low unemployment is a huge problem for the business sector, and I was talking to a prominent local businessman a couple of weeks ago who commented that he was looking for staff and had never had so many good applicants, and how low the income expectations were. He was very pleased.


The proposals coming from the Welfare Reform Group are all about shaming....
forcing people to be spot tested for drug abuse?
Are poor people now all criminals?
Are all single mothers dope heads? Are all single dads P cooks?
Will we as a society really allow for people to be treated like criminals before they have committed a crime, to make sure they are humbled, scared, humiliated and just don't apply for that benefit they should apply for?
And this is in the interest for whom? ?
So no money for societal welfare, but money for random drug testing of poor people needing financial assistance?

I just don't get how this can be considered sound politics.

Now I disagree - this is outstandingly good politics. The moral majority are delighted because it shows Something Is Being Done, and finally our political leaders are Getting Tough On Benefit Abuse. Just like the card system Uncle John announced the other day - it will affect 2600 people (0.06% of the population) and cost $20,000,000, yet he got a standing ovation!!!!. It achieves nothing positive for society, the economy or the people concerned, but by God it wins votes.

[shrub]

I found a bit of string in some pigshit once as a kid. Pulling it out I am pretty sure it was endless.
Same applies here.
I don't care if people have an endless string of pointless jobs, so long as they don't cost me in mine. Its the same reasoning I use with people who smoke, drink, go to church on sunday. I don't care 2 flicks for them so long as they don't cost me directly.

Sadly they do. I'm guessing a highly successful type such as yourself earns $250,000 (if it's more, my apologies for underestimating your status) which means the government will steal around $73,000 from you in tax. Now the $12,000 long term unemployed cost around $97,000,000 in tax. The total tax take is $50bn and personal tax and GST make up 62% of that, so if you do the numbers it works out that over the next year those bludging pricks will cost you $87.84! WELL YOU MIGHT BE ANGRY, that is 0.04% of your income! However for the schmucks on the average wage of $54k pa, those wasters will only pay the long term dole bludgers $11.00 this year, it sucks to be you huh?

[oneofsix]

A very, very good point. I have just read the Welfare Working Group report on reducing long term benefit dependency (http://ips.ac.nz/WelfareWorkingGroup/Downloads/Options%20Paper/Welfare-Working-Group-Reducing-Long-Term-Benefit-Dependency-The-Options.pdf), and they claim that: "12,000 people aged 28-64 years on the Unemployment Benefit who have spent more than 5 years out of the past 10 years on a benefit (as at June 2009)", which is a lot of people, but still only 0.51% of the labour force or 0.27% of the population (http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/lmr/lmr-hlfs-jun-11.pdf). 0.27% of the population means 1 person in 370 is a long term dole bludger. Is that a big problem? I don't think so. [QUOTE]
factor in the 60-65 year olds, even creep in to the older 50s, and you have people that are nearly retired deciding they will wait it out as they are made to feel unemployable. Also their parents retired at 60 so why try had to get a job. Just a guess going from a sample of one but if you are made redundant at 60+ why not.

[QUOTE=shrub;1130142512]Now I disagree - this is outstandingly good politics. The moral majority are delighted because it shows Something Is Being Done, and finally our political leaders are Getting Tough On Benefit Abuse. Just like the card system Uncle John announced the other day - it will affect 2600 people (0.06% of the population) and cost $20,000,000, yet he got a standing ovation!!!!. It achieves nothing positive for society, the economy or the people concerned, but by God it wins votes.
Not hard to get a standing ovation when preaching to the converted. People see the obvious lay a bouts or what they look for and ignore all the school leavers looking hard for jobs that will be negatively affected by this victimization BS

[shrub]

Not hard to get a standing ovation when preaching to the converted. People see the obvious lay a bouts or what they look for and ignore all the school leavers looking hard for jobs that will be negatively affected by this victimization BS

And that's the problem. We don't really care about the unemployed, especially the young, because we're not them. I'm OK - if I send half a dozen emails by the end of the day I will have more work than I know what to do with, but I have an education, experience, networks but most of all; I am a confident, tall, white, male with a wardrobe of suits and no visible tattoos. That means a hell of a lot and probably opens more doors than all my degrees and experience.

But what about the people that don't have my advantages? Sure, I have worked hard to get where I am, but I had a head start that the people who have grown up in 2nd and 3rd generation poverty, who haven't been brought up to value learning and for whom "working" is something that other people do. Do we ignore them and hope they go away by giving them just enough money to survive and hiring public servants to keep them under control? Do we just hope that they will wake up, get off their arses and get a job?

[BoristheBiter]

A very, very good point. I have just read the Welfare Working Group report on reducing long term benefit dependency (http://ips.ac.nz/WelfareWorkingGroup/Downloads/Options%20Paper/Welfare-Working-Group-Reducing-Long-Term-Benefit-Dependency-The-Options.pdf), and they claim that: "12,000 people aged 28-64 years on the Unemployment Benefit who have spent more than 5 years out of the past 10 years on a benefit (as at June 2009)", which is a lot of people, but still only 0.51% of the labour force or 0.27% of the population (http://www.dol.govt.nz/publications/lmr/lmr-hlfs-jun-11.pdf). 0.27% of the population means 1 person in 370 is a long term dole bludger. Is that a big problem? I don't think so.

.

So what has happened to the 15-28 year olds? and yes i know that you can't claim a benefit until 17.

And you also haven't included those on the sick or invalids benefit.

[Str8 Jacket]

So what has happened to the 15-28 year olds? and yes i know that you can't claim a benefit until 17.

And you also haven't included those on the sick or invalids benefit.

I was in the independent youth benefit when I was 15 and still at school. In order to receive this benefit I had to live independently from a caregiver, attend school a certain number of days per year or be actively seeking work (incl volunteer work). Not sure if this still happens?

[BoristheBiter]

I was in the independent youth benefit when I was 15 and still at school. In order to receive this benefit I had to live independently from a caregiver, attend school a certain number of days per year or be actively seeking work (incl volunteer work). Not sure if this still happens?

To apply now you have to show that you can't live at home, or something along those lines, but otherwise it is expected for the family to pay for them until they become 18.

[Grasshopperus]

Ha, I love the high unemployment rate.

It means that I can staff my factory with relatively skilled workers but continue to pay them only a hair above minimum wage. Because my costs are low my product can compete internationally which is actually good for NZ's balance of payments. If there was low unemployment I'd have to spend more effort finding good people and I'd definitely have to pay them more too.

High unemployment means low costs of production. It affects the price of everything around you, and as relatively wealthy people you're all benefiting from it too. That's how you can afford your big screen TVs, Sky subscriptions and $200+ adidas jerseys all while living lifestyles that were unattainable, even by royalty, 100 years ago. We're all fatter, warmer and less-stressed than ever. Rejoice.

[Str8 Jacket]

To apply now you have to show that you can't live at home, or something along those lines, but otherwise it is expected for the family to pay for them until they become 18.

Yep, exactly the same then. Shame that I got kicked out of school for not being able to afford my (supposedly voluntary) fees..... I lived on $25 a week grocery $$, which wasn't too bad in the mid 90's but still bad. Made me get my arse into an apprenticeship with about the same pay....

[oneofsix]

And that's the problem. We don't really care about the unemployed, especially the young, because we're not them. I'm OK - if I send half a dozen emails by the end of the day I will have more work than I know what to do with, but I have an education, experience, networks but most of all; I am a confident, tall, white, male with a wardrobe of suits and no visible tattoos. That means a hell of a lot and probably opens more doors than all my degrees and experience.

But what about the people that don't have my advantages? Sure, I have worked hard to get where I am, but I had a head start that the people who have grown up in 2nd and 3rd generation poverty, who haven't been brought up to value learning and for whom "working" is something that other people do. Do we ignore them and hope they go away by giving them just enough money to survive and hiring public servants to keep them under control? Do we just hope that they will wake up, get off their arses and get a job?

hiring public servants isn't an option, the Nats have just added a whole heap of those to the migration figures.
wake and get a job where? Remember the employers don't want full employment as it pushes wages up but these are the same people who don't want to pay to keep a pool of workers to force wagers down. Sounds like someone wants their cake and to consume it as well, this usually works for the big guys as they get the govt. of the day to make the workers and small employers pay to help them keep their wage bills down.

[Banditbandit]

Ha, I love the high unemployment rate.

It means that I can staff my factory with relatively skilled workers but continue to pay them only a hair above minimum wage. Because my costs are low my product can compete internationally which is actually good for NZ's balance of payments. If there was low unemployment I'd have to spend more effort finding good people and I'd definitely have to pay them more too.

High unemployment means low costs of production. It affects the price of everything around you, and as relatively wealthy people you're all benefiting from it too. That's how you can afford your big screen TVs, Sky subscriptions and $200+ adidas jerseys all while living lifestyles that were unattainable, even by royalty, 100 years ago. We're all fatter, warmer and less-stressed than ever. Rejoice.

Yes - that's all true .. but how does that really benefit GodZone? Sure it improves our balance of payments - but to what end ? High unemployment, High social costs ... etc etc .. and you make a profit ... and the rest suffer ...

What happens to the poor buggas you pay fuck all to - who can't afford to get their kids educated ... who can't afford the Kiwi dream of home ownership ... who can't afford the cheap big flat screen tvs ... sky .. and adidas jerseys ...

So our balance of payments is better and those of us who can afford them get cheaper goodies ..

[Laava]

I have friends with benefits

[neels]

It is a never ending argument as there are so many variables.

I've been briefly on the dole and applied for jobs but got turned down because I was overqualified, they didn't want someone that would up and leave when something better turned up, so I stayed on the dole and the jobs stayed vacant.

We have a job going where I work, on pretty good money and not a lot of skills required, a total of 4 applicants.

A mate of mine is trying to help out a young fella with a job, and his biggest problem is getting him to turn up, and trying to pry him away from his phone to actually work instead of constantly texting his mates.

There are no easy answers and sadly no magic bullet.

[avgas]

Sadly they do. I'm guessing a highly successful type such as yourself earns $250,000 (if it's more, my apologies for underestimating your status) which means the government will steal around $73,000 from you in tax. Now the $12,000 long term unemployed cost around $97,000,000 in tax. The total tax take is $50bn and personal tax and GST make up 62% of that, so if you do the numbers it works out that over the next year those bludging pricks will cost you $87.84! WELL YOU MIGHT BE ANGRY, that is 0.04% of your income! However for the schmucks on the average wage of $54k pa, those wasters will only pay the long term dole bludgers $11.00 this year, it sucks to be you huh?
Nah. but I am working on it. My salary is enough for my family to plan for a future. Save ok money etc. I am around the middle wage amount. My goal is $200K in another 10 years. So while that removes 99% of your argument, as I am not loaded.......here is why I think beneficiaries need a wakeup call.

Wasn't that long ago where I was living on $8,000 p/a - took me about 10-12 years to get out of that. So I know what its like down there.

I have never been on any benefit, for the simple reason that I was smart with my money and any money (money left from dying family etc) I got went into savings. This burnt me when I lost my job or studied as I could not apply for a benefit - so I would clock up loans, and live off baked beans. My life savings, my house deposit became my reason of why I couldn't get a benefit. Double edge sword though, as it also kept me alive........but it took me so long to save it that I was loathed to spend it. I still am.

$8000 was less than what unemployment beneficiaries got at the time. My mates thought I was nuts.

But no, cry me a river about how I should support the system that did not support me. How I should be the crutch trying to lift those who do not WANT to do things the hard way like I did.
Tell me how they benefit society with their PURE LAZINESS, and how TIME ARE HARD.....

Fact of the matter is they don't know shit. They have never had to live on sub $10,000 for the year. Many don't know what it is like to sleep on a floor, or eat baked beans every night for a month. Is it wrong for me to think they should learn how good they have it before they ask for more?

Go look at the immigrants in NZ that don't get benefit, that work shit jobs, live in garages, and never ask for anything. Those people had it harder than ME. beneficiaries in NZ don't know SHIT.

[jasonu]

Simply as a matter of interest, in the United States, state income taxes include unemployment insurance. If you lose your job you are entitled to a certain number of weeks of the dole depending upon how long you worked, being a percentage of your original wage.



Correct but add you must have been employed for atleast one year to qualify for the dole.
It used to be you would get the dole for 6 months with the chance to extend another 6 months on a case by case basis. Now you can easily get the dole for 2 years, I know someone (lazy prick brother in law) that has been on it for 3 years.

[oneofsix]

will avgas now be voting labour?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5547388/Labour-will-cut-dole-spending-fund-apprenticeships

make the bludgers work :angry:

[scumdog]

I have friends with benefits

And I've got a tassled leather jacket - could I say I have fringe benefits?:pinch:

[avgas]

will avgas now be voting labour?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5547388/Labour-will-cut-dole-spending-fund-apprenticeships

make the bludgers work :angry:
Perhaps when a politician delivers on a promise I will consider voting again.
Until then why the fuck would I was my time on them? They are as bad as the bludgers. Only difference is they wear suits.

[shrub]

Excuse a little editing....


Wasn't that long ago where I was living on $8,000 p/a - took me about 10-12 years to get out of that. So I know what its like down there. ....$8000 was less than what unemployment beneficiaries got at the time. My mates thought I was nuts.

Interesting. The unemployment benefit for a male over 25 years is currently $201.00. Assuming you are talking 10 - 12 years ago the dole has not exactly kept pace with inflation.


I have never been on any benefit, for the simple reason that I was smart with my money and any money (money left from dying family etc) I got went into savings. This burnt me when I lost my job or studied as I could not apply for a benefit - so I would clock up loans, and live off baked beans. My life savings, my house deposit became my reason of why I couldn't get a benefit. Double edge sword though, as it also kept me alive........but it took me so long to save it that I was loathed to spend it. I still am.

In other words you didn't need to go on a benefit because you had an inheritence and you were able to borrow money. You had also earned enough money to be able to save, and I commend you for your financial self discipline - a quality that is all too rare today.


But no, cry me a river about how I should support the system that did not support me. How I should be the crutch trying to lift those who do not WANT to do things the hard way like I did.

You made a choice, and it was a choice that was based on you having goals, a cash asset and the ability to earn $8,000 pa while you were studying. What would you have done if you didn't have that cash asset, the ability to study and the means to earn $8k pa? There are many people who lack your resources, most significantly your self discipline and ability to set goals. Now another question: where did you get that from? Did you learn that from your family, friends or a mentor? Did you do something that taught you that, like a stretch in the armed services? Where would you be if you didn't have that advantage?


Tell me how they benefit society with their PURE LAZINESS, and how TIME ARE HARD.....

Times are hard(ish). They have been harder, and will be harder in the future, but there aren't a lot of jobs, especially for unskilled people. Do they benefit society? No, they don't - at least not when they are stuck on a benefit, but if they were able to use their time productively - whether in work or as a volunteer, then they would benefit society, and benefit themselves.


Fact of the matter is they don't know shit. They have never had to live on sub $10,000 for the year. Many don't know what it is like to sleep on a floor, or eat baked beans every night for a month. Is it wrong for me to think they should learn how good they have it before they ask for more?

I'm not sure the debate is about beneficiaries asking for more. I more think it's about the failure of the current system, and believe me, some of them know all about living it hard. A very, very small number don't, but they are the minority.

[SPman]

means 1 person in 370 is a long term dole bludger. Is that a big problem? I don't think so. Unfortunately, from strident media blather, it would seem that at least 360 of the others, do. Vehemently - and would want to remove them from society - which leaves me asking questions about current societal mores, peoples feeling's of powerlessness and /or arrogant superiority.

Which is why I can't stand most people and prefer to live in the bush!

Have been on the Dole, eaten baked beans and slept on floors - got fill-in jobs (which would lead nowhere but was an eye opener...scrub cutting and fencing out by Raglan in mid summer isn't a barrel of laughs, but at least I got fit) - it's not a life style myself and 90% of others similarly placed, liked, but at least it kept the family fed and a roof over our heads (just), whilst we could sort things out. Still, the pastime of kicking people when they are down is alive, well and thriving among large sectors of our society - the fact that 10% may deserve it, doesn't seem to get in the way of kicking the other 90% as well and treating them like bludgers! Fuck 'em!

That's what a society is in place for - helping people through the bad times so they can re-contribute when they are better placed,
Volunteer work on the dole? - me and others I've known in similar situations have done this, but the way most people talk, they seem to want it as a revenge for not having paid employment - which again leads me to believe people are pissed of with their lot so they like to strike out at those they perceive as "lesser" than them....
I dunno - back to the bush, I reckon!

[Ocean1]

You made a choice

He did. As does everyone else.

And that's the only critical factor amongst those who strive to be self suficient.

[Smifffy]

Unfortunately, from strident media blather, it would seem that at least 360 of the others, do. Vehemently - and would want to remove them from society - which leaves me asking questions about current societal mores, peoples feeling's of powerlessness and /or arrogant superiority.

Which is why I can't stand most people and prefer to live in the bush!

Have been on the Dole, eaten baked beans and slept on floors - got fill-in jobs (which would lead nowhere but was an eye opener...scrub cutting and fencing out by Raglan in mid summer isn't a barrel of laughs, but at least I got fit) - it's not a life style myself and 90% of others similarly placed, liked, but at least it kept the family fed and a roof over our heads (just), whilst we could sort things out. Still, the pastime of kicking people when they are down is alive, well and thriving among large sectors of our society - the fact that 10% may deserve it, doesn't seem to get in the way of kicking the other 90% as well and treating them like bludgers! Fuck 'em!

That's what a society is in place for - helping people through the bad times so they can re-contribute when they are better placed,
Volunteer work on the dole? - me and others I've known in similar situations have done this, but the way most people talk, they seem to want it as a revenge for not having paid employment - which again leads me to believe people are pissed of with their lot so they like to strike out at those they perceive as "lesser" than them....
I dunno - back to the bush, I reckon!

I don't mind putting a bit towards providing the basic necessities of life for those that can't manage, or even for my ownself should something happen to my employment & prospects.

I do however object to funding the lifestyles of those wearing red or blue hankies around their wrists and on their heads with fists or rolie dogs tattoed on their faces or on the back of their jackets.

There are also those gaming nerds who seem to think that as long as they have enough to keep them in pizza and dew then sleeping all day and gaming all night is worthy of our tax dollars. Yeah right.

As for the DPB any girl can make a mistake so I don't mind contributing to make sure that the kid can at least get a good start, but there is definitely a word for somebody that makes the same mistake three times. I say make the DPB a decent payment, but cap it, no bonus for a 2nd or 3rd kid, and no extra once the first kid leaves home.

[scumdog]

He did. As does everyone else.

And that's the only critical factor amongst those who strive to be self suficient.


Damn right - some make a decision to get ahead/try to get ahead.:yes:

Other make a decision to become a leeching loser for the rest of their sorry life.:angry:

[shrub]

He did. As does everyone else.

And that's the only critical factor amongst those who strive to be self suficient.

And that my friend is the key - making choices.

Every day every one of us has the chance to make choices, and those choices are decided by what we want from life. I want to spend the rest of my working life doing some specific things and earning a specific amount, to be able to work and travel, carry no debt, have the freedom to work the hours I want and more. I know the things I need to do that will mean I can have that, so every day I am faced with the choice of whether to do them or not, and because I have a long term vision and concrete goals combined with a belief in myself, every morning I choose to do what I need to do. My choices today will be decided by what I expect of myself and what I expect of myself will be decided by what I believe I can do.

I'm no different to anyone - OK, maybe a little bigger, fatter and balder than most, but that's about it. The difference between me sitting working away at a thesis that is already attracting attention from universities overseas and the guy across town who will spend today smoking weed and doing nothing is our expectations of ourselves. He has no expectations of himself beyond the banal because he has no belief in what he can do and have.

My belief in myself and my expectations of my life are the product of my upbringing. I was brought up to believe in my intelligence and believe in my ability to work, and I was brought up to expect to be successful. I was surrounded by books as a child, and my parents were moderate drinkers with no drug use beyond nicotine. Compare that to the tens of thousands of children growing up in poverty and in households dependent on a benefit - are they surrounded by books? Are they expected to do well at school?

The challenge to us as a society is to find a way to get those kids now and change their beliefs and expectations about themselves. Many of their parents are beyond redemption, but the kids aren't. Imagine if we could just get 20% of the kids on a one way ticket to benefit addiction to believe that they can own their own home, hold down a well paid job and live without drugs. Worth working towards? Or should we just go back to the default of ignoring them until they hit the papers?

[shrub]

Other make a decision to become a leeching loser for the rest of their sorry life.:angry: yeah, but without them and their radar guns and speed cameras the roads would be much more dangerous.:eek5:

[Ocean1]

My belief in myself and my expectations of my life are the product of my upbringing.

P'raps. Back to the old nature vs nurture innit.

I know too many bad kids from good parents and vice versa to believe there's much nurture in that recipe.

[shrub]

P'raps. Back to the old nature vs nurture innit.

I know too many bad kids from good parents and vice versa to believe there's much nurture in that recipe.

yeah, there will always be exceptions, and for many years I was one (until I nearly killed myself and realised I needed to grow up), but you can stack the odds. How many kids from private schools end up on a lifetime benefit compared to kids from low decile schools? Would it be too hard to try and find a way to get the kinds of attitudes that you and I have instilled in kids heading for trouble?

[mashman]

I'm no different to anyone - OK, maybe a little bigger, fatter and balder than most, but that's about it. The difference between me sitting working away at a thesis that is already attracting attention from universities overseas and the guy across town who will spend today smoking weed and doing nothing is our expectations of ourselves. He has no expectations of himself beyond the banal because he has no belief in what he can do and have.


Have you ever considered the possibility that people who don't know what they want to do when they grow up, choose not to do anything until they find something that they want to do?



The challenge to us as a society is to find a way to get those kids now and change their beliefs and expectations about themselves. Many of their parents are beyond redemption, but the kids aren't. Imagine if we could just get 20% of the kids on a one way ticket to benefit addiction to believe that they can own their own home, hold down a well paid job and live without drugs. Worth working towards? Or should we just go back to the default of ignoring them until they hit the papers?

I agree that we need to find a way to get the kids and parents educated. However I strongly disagree that any kid or adult is beyond redemption. You offer them enough money to do something and they'll most likely do it.

Shame that money is the only incentive. I highly doubt there is any other form of incentive that would motivate those who not only don't need/want motivation, confidence courses or classes on how to become a better human, but are more than happy with what they have. Underestimate happiness at yer own peril :)

I find it funny that doleys are considered thick or lazy or lack confidence or constantly take drugs or have no direction etc... I have found, in the past, that they are quite the opposite... but that coulda just been because they were Scots :shifty:

[Winston001]

You offer them enough money to do something and they'll most likely do it.

Shame that money is the only incentive. I highly doubt there is any other form of incentive that would motivate those who not only don't need/want motivation....


That is a common misunderstanding. Being paid for work is important in the sense that it enables a person to put food on the table, clothes, and a roof over the head. However studies show that a pay increase has only a temporary positive effect.

Odd as it might seem, work isn't about money (once you get above the basic wage). Work provides a person with a reason to get out of bed each day, a purpose in life. It also provides social contact with other people, feeling valued, learning to do new stuff, and most importantly a sense of self-worth.

Regrettably many employers do not understand these elements and wonder why they lose staff.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Odd as it might seem, work isn't about money (once you get above the basic wage). Work provides a person with a reason to get out of bed each day, a purpose in life. It also provides social contact with other people, feeling valued, learning to do new stuff, and most importantly a sense of self-worth. End quote.

I work at Work and Income, the point I try to make to the people I see is that work itself is a form of therapy, a cheaper type of counseling really. Sounds mad I know, but it's true.

[mashman]

That is a common misunderstanding. Being paid for work is important in the sense that it enables a person to put food on the table, clothes, and a roof over the head. However studies show that a pay increase has only a temporary positive effect.


Not sure where pay increases came into it? I did say "enough" money too. Here, Mr Doley, I'll pay you 100k to become a bin man v's Mr Doley, I'll pay you twice the amount you're currently "earning" on the benefit to become a bin man. I'm guessing one of those requests will be turned down. What's the point of difference?



Odd as it might seem, work isn't about money (once you get above the basic wage). Work provides a person with a reason to get out of bed each day, a purpose in life. It also provides social contact with other people, feeling valued, learning to do new stuff, and most importantly a sense of self-worth.

Regrettably many employers do not understand these elements and wonder why they lose staff.

:shit: Not about money? You're right that work gets people out of bed, ye don't get paid otherwise :laugh:... but it certainly doesn't give purpose in life unless they're vocational about it... failing that, it's about the money, no more, no less. Also, if I was on the dole I could choose who I "played" with, where work forces me to work with people I may not like, which may in turn could cause health problems, stress etc... (I don't see Mr Doley stressed, do you?). heh, feeling valued by your employers, good one Winston. Why would I not feel just as valued on the dole? I can learn new stuff on the dole too, in fact the govt would probably sponsor me to learn about just about anything I wanted too... whereas EVERY company that I have worked for has moaned and bitched about training. Self-worth, I nearly pee'd, my Self-worth has absolutely nothing to do with working, and I doubt I'm in the minority... again, probably found in the vocational crowd.

Business all the way, why should they give a shit? especially where a doley is involved... after all it's their money!

[turtleman]

Have you ever considered the possibility that people who don't know what they want to do when they grow up, choose not to do anything until they find something that they want to do?



So how do they "find what they want to do" whilst not doing anything ?
Smacks of bone idleness to me !
And while this particular group are choosing to do nothing until they know what they want to do, someone else is paying their way for them.
Fucking sponges.

If they choose to sit on their arse doing nothing because they don't know what they want to do when they grow up, then let their parents pay for them.

Or get back to fucking school.

[mashman]

So how do they "find what they want to do" whilst not doing anything ?


Who knows, perhaps it'll come to them on the lav one day.



Smacks of bone idleness to me !

And while this particular group are choosing to do nothing until they know what they want to do, someone else is paying their way for them.
Fucking sponges.


:violin: I don't mind paying.

[Road kill]

Odd as it might seem, work isn't about money (once you get above the basic wage). Work provides a person with a reason to get out of bed each day, a purpose in life. It also provides social contact with other people, feeling valued, learning to do new stuff, and most importantly a sense of self-worth. End quote.

I work at Work and Income, the point I try to make to the people I see is that work itself is a form of therapy, a cheaper type of counseling really. Sounds mad I know, but it's true.

I work to pay the bills only.
You think the day after I win Lotto I'm going back to work:laugh:,,no wonder you Winz fucks achieve nothing.

[turtleman]

Who knows, perhaps it'll come to them on the lav one day.



:violin: I don't mind paying.

Oh I don't mind paying either, where it is required :bleh: - but I was talking specifically about the non grown-ups from your first post that you have conveniently snipped from the quote. :tugger:

[mashman]

Oh I don't mind paying either, where it is required :bleh: - but I was talking specifically about the non grown-ups from your first post that you have conveniently snipped from the quote. :tugger:

ha ha ha haaaaa... snipped because it opens a can of worms I'd rather not open. Parents already pay, as well as in ways that aren't financial (possibly aid in gettin the kid removed, rehoused etc...) and sending them back to school is a waste of a place, time, money and educator sanity, especially if they aren't gonna bother (an overseas student could pay for that place, heh).

[turtleman]

ha ha ha haaaaa... snipped because it opens a can of worms I'd rather not open. Parents already pay, as well as in ways that aren't financial (possibly aid in gettin the kid removed, rehoused etc...) and sending them back to school is a waste of a place, time, money and educator sanity, especially if they aren't gonna bother (an overseas student could pay for that place, heh).

Heh - True dat ! in a lot of cases, but not all....
Not all kids are shitbags that require removal, rehousing etc... a lot are just idle and "can't be bothered"....

My kids were always told from the time they were about 12 years old that they were staying at school unless they provided for themselves - if they left they had to get a job, attend an educational institute or go out and fend for themselves. They've all done that, to a degree. It hasn't been an enforced rule (haven't had to), just the idea from a reasonably early age that there aint no free lunch, and they're responsible for their own destiny. Responsible for taking charge of their own outcome and aren't owed anything.

I used to tease my youngest (at age 8 or 9) that he was the smart one and had to stay at school and study to be a lawyer/doctor/etc so he could earn enough to support my lifestyle in my dotage :yes: ..... little bugger is still living at home with me (now 20) but at least is studying at tech :pinch:

[mashman]

Heh - True dat ! in a lot of cases, but not all....
Not all kids are shitbags that require removal, rehousing etc... a lot are just idle and "can't be bothered"....

My kids were always told from the time they were about 12 years old that they were staying at school unless they provided for themselves - if they left they had to get a job, attend an educational institute or go out and fend for themselves. They've all done that, to a degree. It hasn't been an enforced rule (haven't had to), just the idea from a reasonably early age that there aint no free lunch, and they're responsible for their own destiny. Responsible for taking charge of their own outcome and aren't owed anything.

I used to tease my youngest (at age 8 or 9) that he was the smart one and had to stay at school and study to be a lawyer/doctor/etc so he could earn enough to support my lifestyle in my dotage :yes: ..... little bugger is still living at home with me (now 20) but at least is studying at tech :pinch:

Aye, there is an element that makes a career out of it, but there always has been and always will be and it doesn't make them any less of a person... although the world and his dog would seem to disagree :).

My parents did the same for me, encouragement, explaining the way of the world etc... apparantly I told them to "fuck off" (and worse :facepalm:) and carried on doing my own thing. I can tell you from experience (ashamed as I am) that it can go pear shaped in a heartbeat, irrespective of the parents values and the value system drilled into their kids.

ye reap what ye sew :shifty: (gawd I got my everything crossed that my 3 uck foff pronto... I hope they follow my 20yr olds example and go to Uni... but I ain't countin my chickens)

[Smifffy]

:violin: I don't mind paying.

Then you can pay the bit they charge me for too. :)

[mashman]

Then you can pay the bit they charge me for too. :)

I will... once I have received your salary... to which end I'll need your bank details :) ... and I think your PC may have a virus.

[Smifffy]

I will... once I have received your salary... to which end I'll need your bank details :) ... and I think your PC may have a virus.

But you don't mind, and I do. Money isn't everything, remember?

[mashman]

But you don't mind, and I do. Money isn't everything, remember?

touche :laugh:... Money isn't everything to me, my Wife however :eek5: and kids for that matter ... meh

[frogfeaturesFZR]

I work to pay the bills only.
You think the day after I win Lotto I'm going back to work:laugh:,,no wonder you Winz fucks achieve nothing.

So I try to change things, hopefully I help someone everyday, you on the other hand are a sad excuse of a human. I will however piss on you should I see you on fire somewhere. I hope if you have kids they turn out to be a better human than their father.:motu:

[insane1]

is it suprising that most of the lazy cunts on benifits are either maori,coconuts or such like ,and have got themselves into a rut, and dont really give a fuck about getting out of said rut ,solution put the effort in or get nothing in return.

[Smifffy]

touche :laugh:... Money isn't everything to me, my Wife however :eek5: and kids for that matter ... meh

Yep, and money certainly isn't everything to them down the road, and their kids, cos they can always get more out of my salary.

Easy come, easy go, where as the rest of us have to do 12 hour days and nights just to keep afloat.

[mashman]

Yep, and money certainly isn't everything to them down the road, and their kids, cos they can always get more out of my salary.

Easy come, easy go, where as the rest of us have to do 12 hour days and nights just to keep afloat.

heh, not without the govts blessing.

I believe we have exercised our choices, stop whining. I'd love a do-over :yes:

[scumdog]

is it suprising that most of the lazy cunts on benifits are either maori,coconuts or such like ,and have got themselves into a rut, and dont really give a fuck about getting out of said rut ,solution put the effort in or get nothing in return.
Fighting a shark for a fish for dinner vs the benefit?

No brainer eh!

[racefactory]

I work to pay the bills only.
You think the day after I win Lotto I'm going back to work:laugh:,,no wonder you Winz fucks achieve nothing.

Very true. Whoever works otherwise in my books has either been institutionalized in their own slavery or has a piss poor imagination.

[Smifffy]

I think I could really enjoy my job if I didn't have to rely on it for a living.
:)

Very true. Whoever works otherwise in my books has either been institutionalized in their own slavery or has a piss poor imagination.

[BoristheBiter]

I think I could really enjoy my job if I didn't have to rely on it for a living.
:)

Depends on the job

[flyingcrocodile46]

Depends on the job

The job that suits is a matter of choice and for some there are none that will ever suit.

The only thing you have to work with to achieve happiness in life, is to change your attitude. It is the one sure fire answer that fits all and is easier and cheaper than a drive through cheeseburger. But it seldom occurs to us to look at ourselves as the problem that needs to be fixed, so we are seldom happy with what we have.

[avgas]

I work at Work and Income, the point I try to make to the people I see is that work itself is a form of therapy, a cheaper type of counseling really. Sounds mad I know, but it's true.

It could be a case of Schadenfreude.

[avgas]

Interesting. The unemployment benefit for a male over 25 years is currently $201.00. Assuming you are talking 10 - 12 years ago the dole has not exactly kept pace with inflation.
In other words you didn't need to go on a benefit because you had an inheritence and you were able to borrow money. You had also earned enough money to be able to save, and I commend you for your financial self discipline - a quality that is all too rare today.
You made a choice, and it was a choice that was based on you having goals, a cash asset and the ability to earn $8,000 pa while you were studying. What would you have done if you didn't have that cash asset, the ability to study and the means to earn $8k pa? There are many people who lack your resources, most significantly your self discipline and ability to set goals. Now another question: where did you get that from? Did you learn that from your family, friends or a mentor? Did you do something that taught you that, like a stretch in the armed services? Where would you be if you didn't have that advantage?
Times are hard(ish). They have been harder, and will be harder in the future, but there aren't a lot of jobs, especially for unskilled people. Do they benefit society? No, they don't - at least not when they are stuck on a benefit, but if they were able to use their time productively - whether in work or as a volunteer, then they would benefit society, and benefit themselves.
I'm not sure the debate is about beneficiaries asking for more. I more think it's about the failure of the current system, and believe me, some of them know all about living it hard. A very, very small number don't, but they are the minority.
Will bullet point it cos the little man woke us up early. And I need nap.

I lived on or under $150/week hence the 8K figure. And while the winz payment is $200 after tax my $150 was before. To get simple pleasure things I had to work cash.

I did need the benefit. The $9,000 sitting a term deposit determined I could not as I had over $2,500 in assets. Most beneficiaries get away with this by not having savings and putting it into a car. See the key to actually maintaining a benefit lifestyle is that you maintain you have no assets and so long as IRD can't see it your scott-free. I could not get student allowance (even a trimmed down version) due to my father earning over $40K (at the time....was a few years ago). The only way around that was to divorce my parents. Winz at the time did not understand the fact that I had not lived at home for 3 years.

Mentorship is a problem. I was fortunate enough to not have money growing up so I am probably considered self-taught. However then if I were to revert back to a previous stance and perhaps add to it.
"Cancel all benefits, when someone comes to complain give them a mentor+food vouchers+housing."
Who know could save us some money and improve NZ........its better that sitting on our hands and doing nothing except paying them.

If they were truly living it hard, why have they not changed their lives? Is it right that we keep making them live on tiny amounts of money doing nothing or should we perhaps pay them a bit more to do a 40 hour week.
Contrary to popular belief there is plenty of work out there, its just not in job form. Perhaps we should cancel the benefit and pay it all to creating jobs out of all this work that is not being done????

[puddytat]

The only thing you have to work with to achieve happiness in life, is to change your attitude..

As someone said to me the other day...."The best way to predict your future, is to create it"

[rachprice]

You know you can get a benefit for being >28 weeks pregnant? Not pregnant AND afflicted with some other medical disease or complication but for just being pregnant

Now I understand some women HAVE to give up work early but pregnancy is not an illness! I have seen women really take this for granted!

[frogfeaturesFZR]

You can get sickness benefit at age 18 for being over 27 weeks pregnant, however
You can be on a sickness benefit- hardship if you're 16 and over 27 weeks.
It then becomes EMA, and at 18, DPB.
Some look on it as a career choice.
My personal opinion is if you're on DPB, sole parent, and have further kids while
You are 'single' you get no further payments for the extra kids. I'll qualify that by saying if the child's the result of rape, then obviously you should get the extra payments.

We can theorize until we're dead, but until attitudes change - the cycle will repeat
Itself.

[flyingcrocodile46]

You can get sickness benefit at age 18 for being over 27 weeks pregnant, however
You can be on a sickness benefit- hardship if you're 16 and over 27 weeks.
It then becomes EMA, and at 18, DPB.
Some look on it as a career choice.
My personal opinion is if you're on DPB, sole parent, and have further kids while
You are 'single' you get no further payments for the extra kids. I'll qualify that by saying if the child's the result of rape, then obviously you should get the extra payments.

We can theorize until we're dead, but until attitudes change - the cycle will repeat
Itself.

Sterilise solo mums who are on DPB as a condition of their handouts.:yes: Save us all a fortune and prevent a generation bloated by bludgers born of bludgers.

[racefactory]

This whole thread is for the most part unnecessary. The thing people don't realize is that a long time ago people figured out that it is cheaper to give out handouts than face mass social unrest and crime.

The problem I think is not the fiscal leeching of the economy but rather the demographic problems that some of these schemes are giving rise to.

Also more importantly, this year the baby boomers are turning 65 and hordes of them are rushing for the finish line to retire. Where the fuck are we going to get the money from to pay for their benefits and existence? Come on now, dole bludgers? People just have their heads stuck in the sand.

[fuknKIWI]

it is cheaper to give out handouts than face mass social unrest and crime.

Yet we seem to have both...would the crime & unrest be worse without benefits?


This whole thread is for the most part unnecessary.
Are any threads here really necessary?

[BoristheBiter]

Also more importantly, this year the baby boomers are turning 65 and hordes of them are rushing for the finish line to retire. Where the fuck are we going to get the money from to pay for their benefits and existence? Come on now, dole bludgers? People just have their heads stuck in the sand.

Yep and most have worked for 40+ years so good luck to their retirement.
When you have worked for that long then you can comment the super schemes.

And to answer your question, easy stop all benefits to those that have not worked in full time employment for less than 5 years.
Also if you have not been in paid employment for more than 20 years you get no super.

As for the answer to what some will say is more crime then build more prisons and feed them for $1 a day, still cheaper than what we pay out now plus it creates jobs.

I'm all for giving some one a hand but not a hand out and this is what the social welfare system in this country and others in the west have become.

[mattian]

Young able bodied men should be made to work for the dole. Especially if they are straight out of high school.

[blue rider]

the solution


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxUuU1jwMgM&feature=player_embedded

[racefactory]

Young able bodied men should be made to work for the dole. Especially if they are straight out of high school.

Not woman?

[mashman]

Young able bodied men should be made to work for the dole. Especially if they are straight out of high school.

ha ha ha haaaaaa... sorry, but how would you force them to work?

[BoristheBiter]

ha ha ha haaaaaa... sorry, but how would you force them to work?

gun point?

[pete376403]

Young able bodied men should be made to work for the dole. Especially if they are straight out of high school.

Great idea but, what work would you suggest for young people with no work experience? Where are these jobs?

Earlier generations used to soak up young men by starting wars with other countries which also had a surplus of youth. Who should we go to war with?

[avgas]

Great idea but, what work would you suggest for young people with no work experience? Where are these jobs?

Earlier generations used to soak up young men by starting wars with other countries which also had a surplus of youth. Who should we go to war with?
Its late at night so bear with me an my meager list.
- Dishwashing
- Bar tending
- Fruit picking
- Fruit pruning
- Hedge trimming
- Fencing
- Hole digging
- toilet cleaning
- stove cleaning
- floor cleaning
- lawn mowing
- rubbish sorting
- fence painting
- ground painting
- drain cleaning
- shower cleaning
- factory jobs
- box packing
- data entry
- car counting
- surveying
- vacuuming
- crop planting

or we could put them on a wheel and get them to generate power as they run on it.
Prob a few million other possibilities that I have not thought of.

[Smifffy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_Tunnels

[oldrider]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_Tunnels

Kings and Noblemen of old used to employ the multitudes "gainfully" by building motes and/or filling them in!

MOW, NZED, NZR and all the various NZ Gov't departments used to carry out a lot of "makework" to do the same thing!

The Labour government of 1984 put an end to all that when they introduced "userpays"!

[racefactory]

Its late at night so bear with me an my meager list.
- Dishwashing
- Bar tending
- Fruit picking
- Fruit pruning
- Hedge trimming
- Fencing
- Hole digging
- toilet cleaning
- stove cleaning
- floor cleaning
- lawn mowing
- rubbish sorting
- fence painting
- ground painting
- drain cleaning
- shower cleaning
- factory jobs
- box packing
- data entry
- car counting
- surveying
- vacuuming
- crop planting

or we could put them on a wheel and get them to generate power as they run on it.
Prob a few million other possibilities that I have not thought of.

There would be far too many people's jobs at stake in this scenario and it would just bring on poverty as people who otherwise would have had jobs would now be made redundant to the 'dole bludgers'. It could bring on an inescapable barrier of destitution as the 'real jobs' become too scarce and fiercely competed for.

Jobs are hard enough to find in the economic climate today; you're asking for social unrest going down that path I reckon.

...However you're definitely onto it there with the treadmill idea!

[avgas]

There would be far too many people's jobs at stake in this scenario and it would just bring on poverty as people who otherwise would have had jobs would now be made redundant to the 'dole bludgers'. It could bring on an inescapable barrier of destitution as the 'real jobs' become too scarce and fiercely competed for.

Jobs are hard enough to find in the economic climate today; you're asking for social unrest going down that path I reckon.
I call rubbish to you there.
We currently IMPORT 9000+ workers to fill these roles. If you don't believe me do some research.

Also my first "mini-job" on the end of a shovel got me a real job.

I stand by what I say, people are both stupid and lazy. They think its easier to complain about the economic climate and sit and wait for the jobs to fall on their lap. Yet I don't see a single person approaching the council, the local orchard or build site. There are millions of jobs right now that aren't getting done purely on the fact that no one has the time to advertise them.

Right now my old man is begging for some workforce help in Chch. Job pays good, but its hard work and most of the sods would rather earn quarter the money doing fuck all.

At the low end of the market the world is your oyster. The problem is like I said. Stupid lazy people have a paid alternative to working.

[Swoop]

will avgas now be voting labour?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5547388/Labour-will-cut-dole-spending-fund-apprenticeships
It is interesting to see that liarbore have picked up on a scheme that used to work very well. Pay employers a few dollars to train a young person. It helps train and educate, keep them off the streets, get some self esteem; amongst others. There are benefits for the employer and the country in the longer term.

Really a case of "back to the future" if this eventuates.

It is noted that a similar scheme in The Netherlands has input from their "winz" people, who detect "at risk" youths and give a slightly higher incentive to the employer.
Much better to pay the money out at that stage to an employer, than later having to pay for the judicial system and the incarceration system, the rehabilitation system...


The Labour government of 1984 put an end to all that when they introduced "userpays"!
But... They were/are soooooooooo wise.:facepalm:

[Voltaire]

Do we really want a country in which Grand Parents compete for MacDo jobs with the kids?
And who still employs people over 50?


I'm 50 now..:facepalm:... I could be that old bloke at Bunnings or Mitre 10 who knows stuff without having to ask the computah....:innocent:

computers/mobile phones/internet and 'networking" have stopped people thinking for themselves.

[Toaster]

Benefits should be a safety net in times of need (e.g. redundancy, injury, income earner leaves the family - child support), not a lifestyle choice for the lazy or those that choose to breed generational bludgers.

Idle hands are never a good thing.

[Clockwork]

I call rubbish to you there. .....
Right now my old man is begging for some workforce help in Chch. Job pays good, but its hard work and most of the sods would rather earn quarter the money doing fuck all.

At the low end of the market the world is your oyster. The problem is like I said. Stupid lazy people have a paid alternative to working.

Sadly, I suspect you are right. My school leaver 18 year old has been temping as a laborer for Allied, Ok he has his own transport and we have been able subsidise his living expenses (as and when needed) but the fact is he consistently working 30+ hours a week, is getting recalled back to clients by name and he's now been asked if he'd be interested in a builder's apprenticeship with one of the "clients"



But... They were/are soooooooooo wise.:facepalm:

Fair's fair, that particular Labour Government now trades as the Act party.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Benefits should be a safety net in times of need (e.g. redundancy, injury, income earner leaves the family - child support), not a lifestyle choice for the lazy or those that choose to breed generational bludgers.

Idle hands are never a good thing.

Well said that man, now you do realize you'll be ostracized for talking sense ?

[scumdog]

Benefits should be a safety net in times of need (e.g. redundancy, injury, income earner leaves the family - child support), not a lifestyle choice for the lazy or those that choose to breed generational bludgers.



Echos my thoughts on the subject!`

But critcise those that chose that 'lifestyle' (life? - it's eeking out an existence one 'groundhog-day' after the other) at you peril.

"We'z got rights ya know"

[DMNTD]

ha ha ha haaaaaa... sorry, but how would you force them to work?

If they want to eat/pay bills/etc...they have to 'work'

[racefactory]

If they want to eat/pay bills/etc...they have to 'work'

Trouble is it's just not that easy to get 'work' these days. Even unfinished supermarkets have hundreds of desperate lining up. I've seen the depressing sights myself. It's certainly not how it used to be back before 08; it was piss easy to find jobs. I remember getting offered jobs without even asking after them back then! A good indicator is the amount of these cancerous recruitment agencies that have literally sprung out from the floorboards as of recently.

You need a degree to clean toilets and a 'pre-trade' qualification before you can even hope to start an apprenticeship. MacD's is the safest option for career prospects and job security now.

[mashman]

gun point?

heh... no doubt the day will come :).



If they want to eat/pay bills/etc...they have to 'work'


or thieve, or contribute to the black market. If it ever comes to that, I'd venture that the like minded, or pocketed in this case, will get together to remedy their financial situation and people will die... and it'll probably be the well fed ones that do the dying... bit dramatic I'm sure some will say (buckets of sand all round), but at the end of the day that sort of shit happens all over the world today!

[BoristheBiter]

heh... no doubt the day will come :).



or thieve, or contribute to the black market. If it ever comes to that, I'd venture that the like minded, or pocketed in this case, will get together to remedy their financial situation and people will die... and it'll probably be the well fed ones that do the dying... bit dramatic I'm sure some will say (buckets of sand all round), but at the end of the day that sort of shit happens all over the world today!

Yep because when they are caught for this they are let out to do it again.
But that is a whole other can of worms to open up.

the reason we have the fucked up welfare system we have today is they try and accommodate everything in one go instead of fixing the problems as they go.
Yes there needs to be a bigger picture but trying to get to the end in one go just makes it all that much harder.

[oldrider]

Benefits should be a safety net in times of need (e.g. redundancy, injury, income earner leaves the family - child support), not a lifestyle choice for the lazy or those that choose to breed generational bludgers.

Idle hands are never a good thing.

I have a niece who did just that, set up a lifestyle around the benefit system, knocked out two sprogs, excluded the fathers and is also a lifetime student of fuck all!

Gets all the perks and even has "student" trips overseas! (where one of the fathers of her sprog comes from!)

These spongers certainly know how to work the systems!

Even worse, the system guardians are part of maintaining the bloody deal! :facepalm:

[avgas]

Trouble is it's just not that easy to get 'work' these days. Even unfinished supermarkets have hundreds of desperate lining up. I've seen the depressing sights myself. It's certainly not how it used to be back before 08; it was piss easy to find jobs. I remember getting offered jobs without even asking after them back then!
You need a degree to clean toilets and a 'pre-trade' qualification before you can even hope to start an apprenticeship. MacD's is the safest option for career prospects and job security now.
Sounds like your scared of competition.


A good indicator is the amount of these cancerous recruitment agencies that have literally sprung out from the floorboards as of recently.
99% of recruitment agents are scum bags who don't have an HR bone in their body. Its the scum we seemed to have sucked from UK and Canada.

I am currently applying for better work. So I have having to deal with them on a weekly basis now. I would rather go to a blind dentist. Argh you have got me started on recruitment agents :angry: I need to go sit down.

Down side of being a nice place to live. All the scum soon come to rest.

[imdying]

Benefits should be a safety net in times of need (e.g. redundancy, injury, income earner leaves the family - child support), not a lifestyle choice for the lazy or those that choose to breed generational bludgers.This is rubbish.

If people don't want to work, why do you think that you should be able to make them? People are not your fucking slaves.

The majority of society that believes working is king, that giving a third or more of your life to make other people rich, is the way to go. Good on them. However there is no reason why everybody should have to follow that path.

This is a fact. We already know this to be true. We currently do not expect prisoners, pensioners, or children to work. We know that the world doesn't collapse if we don't all do what is the current norm as we've had the majority of humanities life span with prisoners, pensioners, and children, working.

You can either pay a benefit to those people who do not want to follow the path of all the other sheeple, or you can suffer the result of giving them no other option than to live in the one narrow minded society we currently have without money.

Really, as I've said many times before, the problem is one of over population. We don't have 200,000 unemployed in this country, we have about 2,000,000 more people than we need.

The other problem we have is that we insist on trying to bring up everybody to the same level. Well I've got news for you sunshine, ALL PEOPLE ARE NOT EQUAL. That whole notion is fucking ridiculous. Problem is, people are too blind to see that not equal does not mean better or worse, IT JUST MEANS THAT THEY ARE NOT EQUAL. Big fucking deal. You can't have a relentless greedy society like we have without people at the top, and people at the bottom. Simple as that.

[oneofsix]

This is rubbish.

If people don't want to work, why do you think that you should be able to make them? People are not your fucking slaves.

The majority of society that believes working is king, that giving a third or more of your life to make other people rich, is the way to go. Good on them. However there is no reason why everybody should have to follow that path.

This is a fact. We already know this to be true. We currently do not expect prisoners, pensioners, or children to work. We know that the world doesn't collapse if we don't all do what is the current norm as we've had the majority of humanities life span with prisoners, pensioners, and children, working.

You can either pay a benefit to those people who do not want to follow the path of all the other sheeple, or you can suffer the result of giving them no other option than to live in the one narrow minded society we currently have without money.

Really, as I've said many times before, the problem is one of over population. We don't have 200,000 unemployed in this country, we have about 2,000,000 more people than we need.

The other problem we have is that we insist on trying to bring up everybody to the same level. Well I've got news for you sunshine, ALL PEOPLE ARE NOT EQUAL. That whole notion is fucking ridiculous. Problem is, people are too blind to see that not equal does not mean better or worse, IT JUST MEANS THAT THEY ARE NOT EQUAL. Big fucking deal. You can't have a relentless greedy society like we have without people at the top, and people at the bottom. Simple as that.

All people are equal, they are not all the same.
If they don't want to work they don't have to, there are some who make this choice but don't rely on the benefit.
The benefit should only be a safety net. I have one using it as that at the moment whilst trying hard to find work.
IMO the benefit is a form of employment, you are employed to find work or bring up a kid or whatever. If they don't like the rules they can find another way providing it is within the rules of society or take the consequences.

[BoristheBiter]

This is rubbish.

If people don't want to work, why do you think that you should be able to make them? People are not your fucking slaves.

The majority of society that believes working is king, that giving a third or more of your life to make other people rich, is the way to go. Good on them. However there is no reason why everybody should have to follow that path.

This is a fact. We already know this to be true. We currently do not expect prisoners, pensioners, or children to work. We know that the world doesn't collapse if we don't all do what is the current norm as we've had the majority of humanities life span with prisoners, pensioners, and children, working.

You can either pay a benefit to those people who do not want to follow the path of all the other sheeple, or you can suffer the result of giving them no other option than to live in the one narrow minded society we currently have without money.

Really, as I've said many times before, the problem is one of over population. We don't have 200,000 unemployed in this country, we have about 2,000,000 more people than we need.

The other problem we have is that we insist on trying to bring up everybody to the same level. Well I've got news for you sunshine, ALL PEOPLE ARE NOT EQUAL. That whole notion is fucking ridiculous. Problem is, people are too blind to see that not equal does not mean better or worse, IT JUST MEANS THAT THEY ARE NOT EQUAL. Big fucking deal. You can't have a relentless greedy society like we have without people at the top, and people at the bottom. Simple as that.

Your right if people don't want to work that's fine, just don't expect to be paid for that choice. and why should i pay for that?

And you are right, people are not all equal, to think that you are an equal to me, don't make me laugh you don't even come close.

[mashman]

Yes there needs to be a bigger picture but trying to get to the end in one go just makes it all that much harder.

You're just taunting me now, aren't ya :)...

[imdying]

Your right if people don't want to work that's fine, just don't expect to be paid for that choice. and why should i pay for that?That's fine. You can choose to build a society that revolves around money, and then choose not to pay what you probably consider to be subclasses a benefit.

But you'll reap what you sow.

That's why we pay benefits... because the people (puppeteers) smarter than your dumb arse realise that.

You'll never be my equal though mate, you haven't got the balls.

[avgas]

If people don't want to work, why do you think that you should be able to make them? People are not your fucking slaves.
Vice versa really. People are not other peoples money tree's.

I don't think that people should be forced to work. I simply think that they should not be paid not to work.

Like I said before.

Work or Die/starve/beg.....

[imdying]

I don't think that people should be forced to work. I simply think that they should not be paid not to work.

Like I said before.

Work or Die/starve/beg.....Steal/defraud/kill... If you don't pay the peasants, they're more likely to revolt.

Whether to pay them or not in a society like ours isn't really the question, it's how much do we need to pay them to keep them down?

[shrub]

Steal/defraud/kill... If you don't pay the peasants, they're more likely to revolt.

Whether to pay them or not in a society like ours isn't really the question, it's how much do we need to pay them to keep them down?

Or maybe a better approach is what do we need pay them to get them up? Personally I believe that the overwhelming majority of people on a benefit would much rather have work, so what can we do to get them working?

I was reading an article about the Rooseveld New Deal and what the Swedes did around the same time, and I wondered why we don't try something similar. I mean the approach being used by the current lot has never really worked anywhere, so why not try something that has worked in the past? Or at least a variation on the theme.

[imdying]

Or maybe a better approach is what do we need pay them to get them up? Personally I believe that the overwhelming majority of people on a benefit would much rather have work, so what can we do to get them working? Quite possibly. I don't know that many beneficiaries, but the two I have the most contact with have absolutely no desire to work (full time). They also have no desire to be criminals, cause anybody any trouble, they just like to be left alone to do their thing.

They both work when it suits them, and one of them is actually quite a skilled worker in his field.

Sure we could force them into full time employment, but they won't enjoy that, and I hold enjoying life over conforming to society. Sure that means I foot the bill, but I'm happy and comfortable, it's probably the least I can do for my fellow man.

If everybody had their view, with our current society with it's grand plans of becoming bigger brighter and more prosperous, yes, we'd be screwed. But are those goals worthy? Do we really need society to keep pushing forward economically at all cost? Has it really served us that well?

[shrub]

Do we really need society to keep pushing forward economically at all cost? Has it really served us that well?

Errr... um, well.... Jeez mate, don't ask questions like that! Don't you listen to the advertising?

[imdying]

Mmmmm... I can see why some people want to step out of society. So long as they make some contribution, then I'm happy to pay their way, even if that contribution is as simple as doing others no harm. Ideally something more community (not society) minded would be nice, but no biggy.

[avgas]

Steal/defraud/kill... If you don't pay the peasants, they're more likely to revolt.

Whether to pay them or not in a society like ours isn't really the question, it's how much do we need to pay them to keep them down?
In any other country I would agree with you. But in NZ if you removed the benefit, possibly half would complain. 1/3 would change their lives and the remainder would simply disappear.

Tis the problem with giving away things, it always attracts more.

Now giving them a choice.
Work = money
No work = do you own life things = no money.......

[avgas]

Mmmmm... I can see why some people want to step out of society. So long as they make some contribution, then I'm happy to pay their way, even if that contribution is as simple as doing others no harm. Ideally something more community (not society) minded would be nice, but no biggy.
Don't confuse those who step out of society to those whom collect benefits.

One circle is not inside the other
http://herrington4thgrade.wikispaces.com/file/view/Venn_diagram.jpg/115185705/Venn_diagram.jpg

I have no issue at all of people who step out of society. I wouldn't mind being one myself one day.

Subject is about being paid for nothing.

[imdying]

I'm not sure how to reply to that, neither of those posts appear to make a point, or make any sense.

[BoristheBiter]

You're just taunting me now, aren't ya :)...

Yes sorry i was :p




You'll never be my equal though mate, you haven't got the balls.

Yep mine aren't blue.

[imdying]

Yep mine aren't blue.Smurfette is that you? :blink:

[avgas]

I'm not sure how to reply to that, neither of those posts appear to make a point, or make any sense.
Getting benefit != Escaping Society
The 2 can be exclusive.

Current issue is on whom should be paid what. Not why.

[imdying]

Getting benefit != Escaping Society
The 2 can be exclusive.Nobody suggested anything to the contrary... you may have interpreted it that way perhaps.


Current issue is on whom should be paid what. Not why.Those two issues however, cannot be separated. If there's no why, then there's no whom or what.

[BoristheBiter]

Nobody suggested anything to the contrary... you may have interpreted it that way perhaps.

Those two issues however, cannot be separated. If there's no why, then there's no whom or what.

Right, and if there is no work then there is no money.

[mashman]

7000+ beneficiaries found jobs last month. (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/10207499/number-claiming-dole-falls/)

[Winston001]

Steal/defraud/kill... If you don't pay the peasants, they're more likely to revolt.

...it's how much do we need to pay them to keep them down?

A privileged point of view only possible from a position of wealth.


Meanwhile in the real world - Why don't we see constant revolution among the 5 billion who have no welfare support at all? :bye:

[Usarka]

7000+ beneficiaries found jobs last month. (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/10207499/number-claiming-dole-falls/)

Yeah that doesn't mention the simultaneuous increase in dpb and sickness benefit.

[mashman]

Yeah that doesn't mention the simultaneuous increase in dpb and sickness benefit.

in true KB fashion... and you have the source to back that up?

[mashman]

Meanwhile in the real world - Why don't we see constant revolution among the 5 billion who have no welfare support at all? :bye:

because they spend all day searching for food and water?
because they don't have access to the "resources" required for successful revolution?
because they hold life more dear than those who would happily sell them down the river for a $?
because they do not have the "ability" to gather en masse easily and quickly?
because those who they would oppose have trained "forces" that would be used against them?
because they're forcibly enslaved/fear of life etc...?
because they wouldn't know what to do with the power once they got it?

likely several thousand more reasons why the real world doesn't/can't/won't revolt...

[racefactory]

Quite possibly. I don't know that many beneficiaries, but the two I have the most contact with have absolutely no desire to work (full time). They also have no desire to be criminals, cause anybody any trouble, they just like to be left alone to do their thing.

They both work when it suits them, and one of them is actually quite a skilled worker in his field.

Sure we could force them into full time employment, but they won't enjoy that, and I hold enjoying life over conforming to society. Sure that means I foot the bill, but I'm happy and comfortable, it's probably the least I can do for my fellow man.

If everybody had their view, with our current society with it's grand plans of becoming bigger brighter and more prosperous, yes, we'd be screwed. But are those goals worthy? Do we really need society to keep pushing forward economically at all cost? Has it really served us that well?


Steal/defraud/kill... If you don't pay the peasants, they're more likely to revolt.

Whether to pay them or not in a society like ours isn't really the question, it's how much do we need to pay them to keep them down?


That's fine. You can choose to build a society that revolves around money, and then choose not to pay what you probably consider to be subclasses a benefit.

But you'll reap what you sow.

That's why we pay benefits... because the people (puppeteers) smarter than your dumb arse realise that.

You'll never be my equal though mate, you haven't got the balls.

^ This guy know's what he's talking about.

Excellently put, seeing it all from afar.

[racefactory]

This is rubbish.

The majority of society that believes working is king, that giving a third or more of your life to make other people rich, is the way to go. Good on them. However there is no reason why everybody should have to follow that path.

This is a fact. We already know this to be true. We currently do not expect prisoners, pensioners, or children to work. We know that the world doesn't collapse if we don't all do what is the current norm as we've had the majority of humanities life span with prisoners, pensioners, and children, working.

You can either pay a benefit to those people who do not want to follow the path of all the other sheeple, or you can suffer the result of giving them no other option than to live in the one narrow minded society we currently have without money.

Really, as I've said many times before, the problem is one of over population. We don't have 200,000 unemployed in this country, we have about 2,000,000 more people than we need.



This is quality shit. Why can't more people think outside the box and see this?

It's the self preserving mechanism of our monetary-based social paradigm and just how deluded are we all by it...

Population, also such an overlooked factor in these problems. Human reproduction needs to be outlawed in some form. Weighing down society by getting the dole? Come on, isn't it ineffably worse for society to burden resources by selfishly spawning oneself in an already overloaded environment? People are just too PC to face this very real issue though, it's always the others that need to do something.

[racefactory]

99% of recruitment agents are scum bags who don't have an HR bone in their body. Its the scum we seemed to have sucked from UK and Canada.

I would rather go to a blind dentist. Argh you have got me started on recruitment agents :angry: I need to go sit down.



No, do tell. Let us gather around the fire and hear of the terrible evil that are the recruitment agencies; herding up droves of fellow compatriots and sorting them onto the slave wagon to be fed into camps of doom. Of course staffed by a bunch of commission hungry sharks who'll be all over you like flies around shit if they think they can make a buck out of you, until they think they can't make any money out of you!

[avgas]

No, do tell. Let us gather around the fire and hear of the terrible evil that are the recruitment agencies; herding up droves of fellow compatriots onto the slave wagon and fed into camps of doom. Of course staffed by a bunch of commission hungry sharks who'll be all over you like flies around shit if they think they can make a buck out of you, until they think they can't make any money out of you!
Now that we have talked about how politicians get votes let get back to the topic about recruitment agents :woohoo:

[BoristheBiter]

No, do tell. Let us gather around the fire and hear of the terrible evil that are the recruitment agencies; herding up droves of fellow compatriots onto the slave wagon and fed into camps of doom. Of course staffed by a bunch of commission hungry sharks who'll be all over you like flies around shit if they think they can make a buck out of you, until they think they can't make any money out of you!

So you do know more about them then you let on.

[avgas]

You were broke - not poor - it's a mental thing - makes a big difference
You are right. (secret mystery man :scooter:)
But how we change the perception of the poor? Money clearly does not resolve this.

[shrub]

because they spend all day searching for food and water?
because they don't have access to the "resources" required for successful revolution?
because they hold life more dear than those who would happily sell them down the river for a $?
because they do not have the "ability" to gather en masse easily and quickly?
because those who they would oppose have trained "forces" that would be used against them?
because they're forcibly enslaved/fear of life etc...?
because they wouldn't know what to do with the power once they got it?

likely several thousand more reasons why the real world doesn't/can't/won't revolt...

Pretty much spot on. Going back to when i did my pols degree I did a paper on political insurrection and a severely downtrodden populace is very unlikely to rebel for those reasons. Also the likelihood of political insurrection is strongly influenced by aspirations of the populace - they believe they can have more and resent that they aren't getting it combined with sufficient resources to mobilise and fight - in Libya they had AKs and Hilux utes plus people were able to feed and house the rebels.

[imdying]

Right, and if there is no work then there is no money.You jest? There will always be money (or I guess rather there will always be an economy ).


Why don't we see constant revolution among the 5 billion who have no welfare support at all?The gap (rich/poor divide) in this country isn't that huge, the great unwashed still have some power (this is generally never realised though as New Zealanders are unable to get worked up about anything for more than a week).

The gap in those countries that you refer to is big, often huge. One million guys with rice bowls and malnutrition versus one hundred fit guys with AKs... now ask yourself, why don't we see constant revolution??

We do however see occasional revolution, when some charismatic pinko comes along and convinces his brothers to rise up die for his cause.

[avgas]

There will always be money
Can't the same be said for work?

[BoristheBiter]

You jest? There will always be money (or I guess rather there will always be an economy ).
.

Yep and if you don't work you don't get any.

[imdying]

Can't the same be said for work?Does the deep wind roll through the valley on the cry of a song?


Yep and if you don't work you don't get any.Yes you will.

[racefactory]

This is rubbish.

Really, as I've said many times before, the problem is one of over population. We don't have 200,000 unemployed in this country, we have about 2,000,000 more people than we need.



How do you reckon that figure?

[avgas]

Does the deep wind roll through the valley on the cry of a song?
It can do according to this man.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lorenz

[imdying]

How do you reckon that figure?It's an arbitrary number. I don't know the actual number of unemployed we have and I don't care enough about it to research it. As far as the number we need to cull goes, that depends on when it happens, how much shit we're in by the time we finally realise that it's no longer just an option, how big the population is by the time we get to that realisation, and how many non contributors we're willing to accomodate (assuming Rossi lived here, but wasn't working, and had lost all the money he'd made racing, would you cull him? Or would you be happy to pay him a benefit in recognition of the amount of pleasure he'd given to motogp fans over the years? People like him have contributed their shall many times over IMO, YMMV).


It can do according to this man.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_LorenzSorry, you weren't meant to take that literally, see post 161.

[BoristheBiter]

Does the deep wind roll through the valley on the cry of a song?

Yes you will.

Please tell me how?

[racefactory]

assuming Rossi lived here, but wasn't working, and had lost all the money he'd made racing, would you cull him? Or would you be happy to pay him a benefit in recognition of the amount of pleasure he'd given to motogp fans over the years?

I'd pay him a benefit. Dpb, dole and accomodation supplement triple pack.

[avgas]

imdying if they revolt we have a reason to cull them off. Doesn't that help your cause?

[BoristheBiter]

I'd pay him a benefit. Dpb, dole and accomodation supplement triple pack.

And that's called superannuation, payment for services rendered.

[BoristheBiter]

It's an arbitrary number. I don't know the actual number of unemployed we have and I don't care enough about it to research it. As far as the number we need to cull goes, that depends on when it happens, how much shit we're in by the time we finally realise that it's no longer just an option, how big the population is by the time we get to that realisation, and how many non contributors we're willing to accomodate (assuming Rossi lived here, but wasn't working, and had lost all the money he'd made racing, would you cull him? Or would you be happy to pay him a benefit in recognition of the amount of pleasure he'd given to motogp fans over the years? People like him have contributed their shall many times over IMO, YMMV).



So if we aren't going to cull rossi who do we cull?

[racefactory]

And that's called superannuation, payment for services rendered.

X2 if he gets pregnant.

[BoristheBiter]

X2 if he gets pregnant.

now even i would pay if that happened.

[imdying]

if they revolt we have a reason to cull them off. Doesn't that help your cause?Not my cause, I wish I had that sort of power :laugh:

The world would naturally get there by itself (if you accept there's a finite number of people the earth can support). However it seems likely that it will not come to that because collective society is foolish enough to believe that we're civilised enough to figure out another solution (mass birth control, whatever).

Those who're actually pulling the strings don't give a fig about saving the great unwashed, but they do care about retaining the status quo... so it seems likely we'll have another 'great' war to achieve the cull in a way that is and has always been considered acceptable to society (for the unwashed will be taught that the greatest contribution one can make to society is to die for it).


So if we aren't going to cull rossi who do we cull?Good question... Assuming war doesn't fix the problem first, and I assume it will, or perhaps nature via plague (who knows, ask a medium?), then it'll sure be interesting to see how they figure that one out if it came to it :blink:

[racefactory]

That's really it though isn't it, what the world really needs right now is a war to fix everything and then we can have fun starting the viscous cycle all over again.

[shrub]

Not my cause, I wish I had that sort of power :laugh:

The world would naturally get there by itself (if you accept there's a finite number of people the earth can support). However it seems likely that it will not come to that because collective society is foolish enough to believe that we're civilised enough to figure out another solution (mass birth control, whatever).

Those who're actually pulling the strings don't give a fig about saving the great unwashed, but they do care about retaining the status quo... so it seems likely we'll have another 'great' war to achieve the cull in a way that is and has always been considered acceptable to society (for the unwashed will be taught that the greatest contribution one can make to society is to die for it).

Good question... Assuming war doesn't fix the problem first, and I assume it will, or perhaps nature via plague (who knows, ask a medium?), then it'll sure be interesting to see how they figure that one out if it came to it :blink:

I doubt we will see another war big enough to achieve that, I think what is more likely to happen (actually is already happening) is a widespread collapse of the planet's ability to sustain us resulting in mass starvation in some areas and widespread emigration to areas that are able to provide food and water. A very small percentage of the population are able to insulate themselves, and here in dear little NZ we are well set to weather the storm - except for the fact that a lot of people are already looking at us as a place to go.

[racefactory]

I doubt we will see another war big enough to achieve that, I think what is more likely to happen (actually is already happening) is a widespread collapse of the planet's ability to sustain us resulting in mass starvation in some areas and widespread emigration to areas that are able to provide food and water. A very small percentage of the population are able to insulate themselves, and here in dear little NZ we are well set to weather the storm - except for the fact that a lot of people are already looking at us as a place to go.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Given the crash course we are headed on at the moment, It looks like there will be huge famine ahead in our lifetimes as our artificial pyramid scheme continues to collapse on itself. Food and water will be the real currency.

Luckily we won't have such a hard time fighting off the influx of dying and desperate as we are in an excellent geographical position and our waters should take care of that for us. That's if we don't spawn too many of ourselves here first...

[imdying]

I doubt we will see another war big enough to achieve that, I think what is more likely to happen (actually is already happening) is a widespread collapse of the planet's ability to sustain us resulting in mass starvation in some areas and widespread emigration to areas that are able to provide food and water. A very small percentage of the population are able to insulate themselves, and here in dear little NZ we are well set to weather the storm - except for the fact that a lot of people are already looking at us as a place to go.Fun times in Tahoe... or is that Thames?

[imdying]

That's really it though isn't it, what the world really needs right now is a war to fix everything and then we can have fun starting the viscous cycle all over again.Given that's how we roll, I don't see how anybody can have anything but utter disgust for humanity.

Fuck humanity, not worth saving.

[BoristheBiter]

Given that's how we roll, I don't see anybody can have anything but utter disgust in humanity.

Fuck humanity, not worth saving.

i knew we would find something we agree on.

[BoristheBiter]

I doubt we will see another war big enough to achieve that, I think what is more likely to happen (actually is already happening) is a widespread collapse of the planet's ability to sustain us resulting in mass starvation in some areas and widespread emigration to areas that are able to provide food and water. A very small percentage of the population are able to insulate themselves, and here in dear little NZ we are well set to weather the storm - except for the fact that a lot of people are already looking at us as a place to go.

It has been this way for years.
It started with band-aid,over 22 billion has been spent in Africa and it is still the same. Its about time we just let it run its course.

[imdying]

i knew we would find something we agree on.Well now we have that and the GSXR750 being an awesome motorcycle. Next we'll be sitting around smoking a joint and singing kumbaya :drinkup:

[BoristheBiter]

Well now we have that and the GSXR750 being an awesome motorcycle. Next we'll be sitting around smoking a joint and singing kumbaya :drinkup:

God help us all.

[shrub]

It has been this way for years.
It started with band-aid,over 22 billion has been spent in Africa and it is still the same. Its about time we just let it run its course.

Aid has been really bad for Africa. I won't expand because it is a huge and complex problem that would take about 20 pages to even summarise, but the aid industry has turned what should be an incredibly rich continent into a disaster. I read a very good book a few months ago called Our Turn to Eat by Michela Wrong which described how aid had been subverted by first Daniel Moi then Mwai Kibaki to build empires based on tribal loyalties. A lovely example of where aid went wrong was President Mobutu having a chartered Concorde on standby because he believed none of his other jets were fast enough.

As for leaving Africa to run it's course, tempting as that may be, if we do there will be massive impacts on the west.

[BoristheBiter]

Aid has been really bad for Africa. I won't expand because it is a huge and complex problem that would take about 20 pages to even summarise, but the aid industry has turned what should be an incredibly rich continent into a disaster. I read a very good book a few months ago called Our Turn to Eat by Michela Wrong which described how aid had been subverted by first Daniel Moi then Mwai Kibaki to build empires based on tribal loyalties. A lovely example of where aid went wrong was President Mobutu having a chartered Concorde on standby because he believed none of his other jets were fast enough.

As for leaving Africa to run it's course, tempting as that may be, if we do there will be massive impacts on the west.

You said something about a war??

[shrub]

You said something about a war??

Civil wars in Africa are tipped to increase, but Africa has a minimal environmental footprint so even if you wiped out the entire population it would have about the impact of wiping out Belgium.

[insane1]

pray tell me why is it that most of the bludgers on the dole are either maori/cocunuts ,or women of the same race who get pregnant and keep doing so to stay on the dole,is a choice they make or are they to bloody lazy to do anything else.

[imdying]

pray tell me why is it that most of the bludgers on the dole are either maori/cocunutsIt's your perception (which doesn't make it a fact) because you live in Auckland. Plenty of lazy pale faced honkys down here.

[insane1]

nah it"s just a comment not fact,but it would seem it"s mainly coconuts/maoris being dole bludgers .

[mashman]

nah it"s just a comment not fact,but it would seem it"s mainly coconuts/maoris being dole bludgers .

take yer sunnies awf :shifty:

[imdying]

nah it"s just a comment not fact,but it would seem it"s mainly coconuts/maoris being dole bludgers .
This might help:

Key points:

At the end of February 2011, there were 64,308 people throughout New Zealand on unemployment-related benefits.
The majority (70%) were male.
By ethnicity, 36% were Māori and 10% were Pacific peoples.
By age group, 32% were youth aged 18-24 years.
In the three months to March 2011, 41% of people granted an unemployment benefit had either not been recently employed or had never worked.
In the three months to March 2011, only 4% of people granted an unemployment benefit listed their previous occupation as professional or technical workers

[Banditbandit]

At the end of February 2011, there were 64,308 people throughout New Zealand on unemployment-related benefits.
The majority (70%) were male.
By ethnicity, 36% were Māori and 10% were Pacific peoples.
By age group, 32% were youth aged 18-24 years.
In the three months to March 2011, 41% of people granted an unemployment benefit had either not been recently employed or had never worked.
In the three months to March 2011, only 4% of people granted an unemployment benefit listed their previous occupation as professional or technical workers

SO .. In realty it's men .. Men are the dole bludgers !!!! 70% of the unemployed dole bludgers are Men !!!

Put the lazy bastards on an island somewhere and let them starve ... !!!!

[imdying]

SO .. In realty it's men .. Men are the dole bludgers !!!! 70% of the unemployed dole bludgers are Men !!!Indeed. However I suspect those figures would even out if men had a coochie they could pop a DPB payment out of.

[Banditbandit]

Indeed. However I suspect those figures would even out if men had a coochie they could pop a DPB payment out of.

You're a man .. how can I take anything you say seriously ???? Just another lazy bludger ...

(Oh, wait .. when I look down ...)

[jonbuoy]

Why blame the "money" system? Back before we had money if you sat on your arse, didn´t get up hunt/grow make shelter you wouldn´t last too long. If you spent all day hunting and gathering for yourself/tribe do you think you would feed the guy that sat under a tree picking his teeth all day because he didn´t feel like doing anything himself day after day week after week?

[racefactory]

Why blame the "money" system? Back before we had money if you sat on your arse, didn´t get up hunt/grow make shelter you wouldn´t last too long. If you spent all day hunting and gathering for yourself/tribe do you think you would feed the guy that sat under a tree picking his teeth all day because he didn´t feel like doing anything himself day after day week after week?

You miss the point. It's because the monetary system is one of fractional reserve banking, where like a child’s game of musical chairs- as long as the music is playing, there are no losers. This is what is actually being blamed. Money is just a very useful means of exchange.

[mashman]

Why blame the "money" system? Back before we had money if you sat on your arse, didn´t get up hunt/grow make shelter you wouldn´t last too long. If you spent all day hunting and gathering for yourself/tribe do you think you would feed the guy that sat under a tree picking his teeth all day because he didn´t feel like doing anything himself day after day week after week?

pics or it never happened.

I get what you mean though (hopefully), and you're right. But we learned how to feed many off of the labor of a few, so I would have thought somewhere along the lines there were people picking their teeth under trees... praps they took turns :shit: before someone started to charge for their services...

[jonbuoy]

You miss the point. It's because the monetary system is one of fractional reserve banking, where like a child’s game of musical chairs- as long as the music is playing, there are no losers. This is what is actually being blamed. Money is just a very useful means of exchange.

Can you explain a little more? How is this relevant to some people not pulling their weight but expecting to be looked after? I can see the musical chairs scenario for the debt crisis and banking system some countries are in but trading services for tokens (or money) is something different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money

[jonbuoy]

pics or it never happened.

I get what you mean though (hopefully), and you're right. But we learned how to feed many off of the labor of a few, so I would have thought somewhere along the lines there were people picking their teeth under trees... praps they took turns :shit: before someone started to charge for their services...

People who managed to get an excess of whatever they were growing/collecting/harvesting would have swapped/bartered with others before "charging" for services. Charging only came after people decided it was easier to use money instead of swapping/bartering numerous times to get what they actually wanted. A doctor gets more "tokens" to buy things than a labourer because his services are rarer and more valuable, just the same as a cow is worth more than a chicken or a bag of rice.

People survived harsh winters in the Northern Hemisphere by stockpiling/preserving and storing in the summer. If you didn´t work you died.

[mashman]

People who managed to get an excess of whatever they were growing/collecting/harvesting would have swapped/bartered with others before "charging" for services. Charging only came after people decided it was easier to use money instead of swapping/bartering numerous times to get what they actually wanted. A doctor gets more "tokens" to buy things than a labourer because his services are rarer and more valuable, just the same as a cow is worth more than a chicken or a bag of rice.

People survived harsh winters in the Northern Hemisphere by stockpiling/preserving and storing in the summer. If you didn´t work you died.

True. Although you only need a doctor when you need one, same as a labourer I guess. Why they're paid differently is beyond me. Tis a shame some smart arse decided that their cow was more valuable than a chicken.

If you didn't work or hunt etc..., then you probably stole or scavenged to keep the reaper from the door, so I doubt that people died because they didn't work... and I also doubt that people where uncaring enough to allow people to just die, especially if they had surplus... unlike today where we have surplus and would rather it rot than give it away to those who might need it.

Time to move on I reckon. We have everything that we need other than the will to change how the system works. I often wonder how many great minds are lost because they choose what is seen as the lazy way to live.

[Oscar]

True. Although you only need a doctor when you need one, same as a labourer I guess. Why they're paid differently is beyond me. Tis a shame some smart arse decided that their cow was more valuable than a chicken.



That's some interesting "logic" there, sport.

If a labourer had to spend 10 years training, he'd get the same as a Doctor.

The reason a cow is more valuable than a chicken is 'cause a cow is a little bit bigger than a chicken and costs more to feed (and when I say costs more, that includes the physical effort involved).

Having said that, I have a chicken here that I'd like to swap for a cow - could you facilitate that for me?

[mashman]

That's some interesting "logic" there, sport.

If a labourer had to spend 10 years training, he'd get the same as a Doctor.

The reason a cow is more valuable than a chicken is 'cause a cow is a little bit bigger than a chicken and costs more to feed (and when I say costs more, that includes the physical effort involved).

Having said that, I have a chicken here that I'd like to swap for a cow - could you facilitate that for me?

I know, sense prevails in some small dark corners :)

Oh I see, it's the time it takes to train that makes them more valuable. In my profession I have to constantly upskill, yet I don't get paid as well as a doctor... yup, your logic is much bettererer.

:killingme... good god it's lucky that there have always been human beings around to look after cows, they'd have never been able to breed, feed or anything.

Sure, I just need your address and I'll package up the wife for ya.

[Oscar]

I know, sense prevails in some small dark corners :)

Oh I see, it's the time it takes to train that makes them more valuable. In my profession I have to constantly upskill, yet I don't get paid as well as a doctor... yup, your logic is much bettererer.

:killingme... good god it's lucky that there have always been human beings around to look after cows, they'd have never been able to breed, feed or anything.

Sure, I just need your address and I'll package up the wife for ya.

Of course there is a certain amount of choice invovled (my wife trained as long as a Dentist, but get's two thirds the income), but why would a labourer get paid (in money, economic credits or bales of hay) as much as a Doctor?

Your Cow/Chicken analogy is wandering also.‎ Even in the wild, you get a whole lot more benefit from catching a cow than a chicken, and the effort involved is different. So, I repeat, why would you value a chicken the same as a cow?

[mashman]

Of course there is a certain amount of choice invovled (my wife trained as long as a Dentist, but get's two thirds the income), but why would a labourer get paid (in money, economic credits or bales of hay) as much as a Doctor?

Your Cow/Chicken analogy is wandering also.‎ Even in the wild, you get a whole lot more benefit from catching a cow than a chicken, and the effort involved is different. So, I repeat, why would you value a chicken the same as a cow?


The labourer should get paid the same as the Doctor, because the Doctor isn't a labourer. They both do 1 job... you can't have 1 without the other. The Doctor cannot train if the University, Doctors House, Local Infrastructure etc... hasn't been built by the labourer. Why pay them differently?

Ahhh of course, I should have seen it a mile off. I forgot that you prefer to play the short game. In the short term the chicken will only give me eggs and the cow will give me milk (I can make cheese, butter etc... if I can be arsed). So they can both feed me in the short term. Over the longer term, the cow will give me 1 calf per year. The chicken could give me 100+ chickens per year. I may well get bird flu, but you'll always be a mad cow. I'll keep my chickens as they'd be more valuable.

[Oscar]

The labourer should get paid the same as the Doctor, because the Doctor isn't a labourer. They both do 1 job... you can't have 1 without the other. The Doctor cannot train if the University, Doctors House, Local Infrastructure etc... hasn't been built by the labourer. Why pay them differently?

Ahhh of course, I should have seen it a mile off. I forgot that you prefer to play the short game. In the short term the chicken will only give me eggs and the cow will give me milk (I can make cheese, butter etc... if I can be arsed). So they can both feed me in the short term. Over the longer term, the cow will give me 1 calf per year. The chicken could give me 100+ chickens per year. I may well get bird flu, but you'll always be a mad cow. I'll keep my chickens as they'd be more valuable.

So if the Labourer gets paid the same as the Doctor, why would I bother taking ten years to learn medicine? And being as how you have to be fairly smart to be a Doctor, there's always going to be a shitload more labourers around, and scarcity means value otherwise we'd all be giving our girls engagement rings with coal instead of diamonds..

The short game?
What's the average life span of a chicken?
And a hundred chicks a year?:shit: Your Rooster will be dead inside six months.

Besides, you said "a chicken", and I don't care what wacko economic system you're in, one cow will always be worth more than one chicken.

[Banditbandit]

So ...from the Government's own website ...

http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/022C2B15-1522-4140-999C-49CF45B43F46/512/0013Benefits1.pdf

Benefit payouts go to people in this percentage

Superannuation 52.3%
DPB 16.1%
Unemployment 16.2%
Invalids 6.6%
Sickness 4.0%
Others 4.7%

So .. it's not the Unemployed or the Solo Parents .. it's the superannuatents - they cost us 52.3% of our Social Welfare payouts ... more than half our welfare support goes to Old People ... they suck out more than the unemployed and the solo parents combined .. in fact all other benfits combined ...

So all you Bastards STOP GETTING OLD !!!

[Oscar]

So ...from the Government's own website ...

http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/022C2B15-1522-4140-999C-49CF45B43F46/512/0013Benefits1.pdf

Benefit payouts go to people in this percentage

Superannuation 52.3%
DPB 16.1%
Unemployment 16.2%
Invalids 6.6%
Sickness 4.0%
Others 4.7%

So .. it's not the Unemployed or the Solo Parents .. it's the superannuatents - they cost us 52.3% of our Social Welfare payouts ... more than half our welfare support goes to Old People ... they suck out more than the unemployed and the solo parents combined .. in fact all other benfits combined ...

So all you Bastards STOP GETTING OLD !!!

You would take your life in your hands telling some old people that their Superannuation is a benefit.

[mashman]

So if the Labourer gets paid the same as the Doctor, why would I bother taking ten years to learn medicine? And being as how you have to be fairly smart to be a Doctor, there's always going to be a shitload more labourers around, and scarcity means value otherwise we'd all be giving our girls engagement rings with coal instead of diamonds..

The short game?
What's the average life span of a chicken?
And a hundred chicks a year? Your Rooster will be dead inside six months.

Besides, you said "a chicken", and I don't care what wacko economic system you're in, one cow will always be worth more than one chicken.

Because they may want to be a Doctor when they grow up. So labourers are incapable of being Doctors? Since when did you have to be smart to be a Doctor? To pass exams? Pulease... anyone can learn anything they choose. You're sounding awfully belitist again.

Yes the short game... Cow worth more, must have cow. And if it dies within 1 year there's nothing to replace it, especially if it is so prized by all around you that don't have a cow and want one. At least I'll have 100 more chickens at the end of the year (i'm sure there'll be more than 1 horny rooster around).

Your value system is short sighted. You perceive it as worth more in value, yet you sacrifice your future by putting all of your eggs in one basket.

[Banditbandit]

You would take your life in your hands telling some old people that their Superannuation is a benefit.

Yeah . and that is the problem ... (apart from the fact that in less than 10 years I'll be eligible ...) .. too many people see superannuation as a right .. and get it even when they do not need it ...

That's the single biggest drain on the welfare system - NOT solo parents or the unemployed !!!

Look ... I do not begrudge old people a decent standard of living in their old age ... I do begrudge paying super to people who do not need superanuation to have a decent standard of living in their old age ...

[Oscar]

Because they may want to be a Doctor when they grow up. So labourers are incapable of being Doctors? Since when did you have to be smart to be a Doctor? To pass exams? Pulease... anyone can learn anything they choose. You're sounding awfully belitist again.

Yes the short game... Cow worth more, must have cow. And if it dies within 1 year there's nothing to replace it, especially if it is so prized by all around you that don't have a cow and want one. At least I'll have 100 more chickens at the end of the year (i'm sure there'll be more than 1 horny rooster around).

Your value system is short sighted. You perceive it as worth more in value, yet you sacrifice your future by putting all of your eggs in one basket.

I'm sure some labourers have the wherewithall to be Doctors.
But all of them?
Even some of them?

At the end of the day, being a Doctor requires more training and more intelect than digging ditches. However if you'd like to prove me wrong, next time you have a medical problem, please feel free to consult a labourer.

As for the farm animals, a cow is worth more than a chicken because it produces more than a chicken. If you disagree, please set a time and place where I can trade you a chicken for one cow. Actually, what the hell - you get me a decent dairy cow, I'll trade you 100 chickens for it!

[Oscar]

Yeah . and that is the problem ... (apart from the fact that in less than 10 years I'll be eligible ...) .. too many people see superannuation as a right .. and get it even when they do not need it ...

That's the single biggest drain on the welfare system - NOT solo parents or the unemployed !!!

Look ... I do not begrudge old people a decent standard of living in their old age ... I do begrudge paying super to people who do not need superanuation to have a decent standard of living in their old age ...

I can't argue - the single biggest fuck in NZ fiscal history was the scrapping of the Labour Party Super Scheme by Muldoon in 1975 and the subsequent and continuing use of Superannuation as a political football. And the lastest fuck up was Key's election promise not to put back the entitlement age...

[avgas]

So ...from the Government's own website ...

http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/022C2B15-1522-4140-999C-49CF45B43F46/512/0013Benefits1.pdf

Benefit payouts go to people in this percentage

Superannuation 52.3%
DPB 16.1%
Unemployment 16.2%
Invalids 6.6%
Sickness 4.0%
Others 4.7%

So .. it's not the Unemployed or the Solo Parents .. it's the superannuatents - they cost us 52.3% of our Social Welfare payouts ... more than half our welfare support goes to Old People ... they suck out more than the unemployed and the solo parents combined .. in fact all other benfits combined ...

So all you Bastards STOP GETTING OLD !!!
If you get rid of some of those other benefits they might drop like flies before they have a chance to get old.

Win-win

[mashman]

I'm sure some labourers have the wherewithall to be Doctors.
But all of them?
Even some of them?


... no real difference for Doctors having, or not, the ability to be Labourers? I'd venture it's the perception that sets the value of Doctors v's Labourers, and not the value that the individual brings to society, as you would have me believe.



At the end of the day, being a Doctor requires more training and more intelect than digging ditches. However if you'd like to prove me wrong, next time you have a medical problem, please feel free to consult a labourer.

As for the farm animals, a cow is worth more than a chicken because it produces more than a chicken. If you disagree, please set a time and place where I can trade you a chicken for one cow. Actually, what the hell - you get me a decent dairy cow, I'll trade you 100 chickens for it!

If you say so.

I'll check my bank balance and my calendar :)

[Oscar]

... no real difference for Doctors having, or not, the ability to be Labourers? I'd venture it's the perception that sets the value of Doctors v's Labourers, and not the value that the individual brings to society, as you would have me believe.





I would pay to see a Labourer take your appendix out...

[mashman]

I would pay to see a Labourer take your appendix out...

waaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa... oh you are a rotter :spanking:... and likewise a Labourer building your house.

[jonbuoy]

Because they may want to be a Doctor when they grow up. So labourers are incapable of being Doctors? Since when did you have to be smart to be a Doctor? To pass exams? Pulease... anyone can learn anything they choose. You're sounding awfully belitist again.

Yes the short game... Cow worth more, must have cow. And if it dies within 1 year there's nothing to replace it, especially if it is so prized by all around you that don't have a cow and want one. At least I'll have 100 more chickens at the end of the year (i'm sure there'll be more than 1 horny rooster around).

Your value system is short sighted. You perceive it as worth more in value, yet you sacrifice your future by putting all of your eggs in one basket.

Some people could never make it as a Doctor, Lawyer, Brain Surgeon, Company Director. Some people are smarter than others. Communism doesn´t work, fact.

[jonbuoy]

... no real difference for Doctors having, or not, the ability to be Labourers? I'd venture it's the perception that sets the value of Doctors v's Labourers, and not the value that the individual brings to society, as you would have me believe.



If you say so.

I'll check my bank balance and my calendar :)

You don´t think a doctor is more valuable to society than a labourer?? You´d change your mind if you were sick.

[Clockwork]

You don´t think a doctor is more valuable to society than a labourer?? You´d change your mind if you were sick.

Yes, but you might change your mind if you were heathy and needed a roof over your head.

As society evolved, it certainly needed and used labourers before doctors, they're actually a very recent invention (and in a lot of cases they still arn't much use)

I don't think this has anything to do with "Communism" but there is certainly a case to be made for people to bring to society that which they are best suited to deliver without expecting addional reward for it.

[puddytat]

Communism doesn´t work, fact.

And the richest,most populace country on the planet is......?:yes:

[jonbuoy]

Yes, but you might change your mind if you were heathy and needed a roof over your head.

As society evolved, it certainly needed and used labourers before doctors, they're actually a very recent invention (and in a lot of cases they still arn't much use)

I don't think this has anything to do with "Communism" but there is certainly a case to be made for people to bring to society that which they are best suited to deliver without expecting addional reward for it.

"Doctors" aren´t a recent invention, ancient Greeks had them, herbal healers and witch doctors have been around for longer than money. What you are describing is communism, a Doctor gets paid the same as a waitress, brain surgeon, scientist - how is that fair? Why do you think so many top scientists defected from Russia - we were happy to have them, the same couldn´t be said for labourers. A doctor could probably do a half decent job of making a shelter, a labourer wouldn´t be able to remove an appendix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

[Oblivion]

I was having a discussion about why the rest of the world was failing economically, while China, one of the strongest communist powers wasn't. We came up with communism as the prime reason.

In a communist society, Everyone has a job. E.g, To buy a newspaper, Someone got the newspaper, another got the bag ready, and the last one put it in the bag. Even if it was a job that could have been done by one person everyone had a job. Nowadays, everyone is so interested in lying on their ass waiting for the $100k a year to come their way. They aren't even interested in the supermarket job that will probably be better skill wise. :facepalm:

Solution; Make the whole world communist until it can properly sustain itself.

[jonbuoy]

And the richest,most populace country on the planet is......?:yes:

And you would want to live there?

[Clockwork]

"Doctors" aren´t a recent invention, ancient Greeks had them, herbal healers and witch doctors have been around for longer than money. What you are describing is communism, a Doctor gets paid the same as a waitress, brain surgeon, scientist - how is that fair? Why do you think so many top scientists defected from Russia - we were happy to have them, the same couldn´t be said for labourers. A doctor could probably do a half decent job of making a shelter, a labourer wouldn´t be able to remove an appendix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism


I'll conceded the Communism point but I'd just point out that the Soviet Union wasn't communist (that's just how their Government labled them, that would go for China too) Now Cuba, if they weren't being fucked over by the Yanks, they could be making a better fist of it.

Anyway, you're talking Witch Doctors Herbal Healers, and Aincent Greeks?? Leeches, bleedings and you're suggesting that they contributed more to that society than the labourers?

Just because desparate people "hoped" they may help didn't make them any more useful than todays faith healers and Homopaths.

[jonbuoy]

I'll conceded the Communism point but I'd just point out that the Soviet Union wasn't communist (that's just how their Government labled them, that would go for China too) Now Cuba, if they weren't being fucked over by the Yanks, they could be making a better fist of it.

Anyway, you're talking Witch Doctors Herbal Healers, and Aincent Greeks?? Leeches, bleedings and you're suggesting that they contributed more to that society than the labourers?

Just because desparate people "hoped" they may help didn't make them any more useful than todays faith healers and Homopaths.

You have to be kidding?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocrates

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3858087.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbalism

[puddytat]

And you would want to live there?

Where everyone is on the same level....anyday. But I'd go more along socialist lines:yes:

[jonbuoy]

Where everyone is on the same level....anyday. But I'd go more along socialist lines:yes:

Nice idea in theory, in the words of Frank Zappa

"communism doesn´t work because people like to own stuff".

I think China has a bigger gap between rich and poor than western societies.

[Clockwork]

No I'm not kidding, 150 years ago they didn't know about bacteria or infection, gthey had no anaesthetics. It was only 60 or so years ago they discovered antibiotics.

All that aside, the point I was making and stand by is that society needed and benefited from labourers long before it got any practical benefit from Doctors.

[puddytat]

Quote Jono,nice idea in theory

Hmmmm,dunno about that....but I do accept that its not perfect, but I really dont see open slather capitalism as being that much different in its rich/poor disparity.One thing about China is that the people believe strongly in their system & even stronger in their culture:yes:
In the west the mantra is " If its not about me then Im not interested":facepalm:
Socialism is really a slightly different kettle of fush:yes: And like clockwork says Cuba is a good example....& unlike what western media portrays, the people are generally happy, well fed & like the system. I know, Ive been there.

[jonbuoy]

No I'm not kidding, 150 years ago they didn't know about bacteria or infection, gthey had no anaesthetics. It was only 60 or so years ago they discovered antibiotics.

All that aside, the point I was making and stand by is that society needed and benefited from labourers long before it got any practical benefit from Doctors.

It might be they have only just recently been making some decent headway but the tribal witchdoctor was well treated and held a lot of power in the communities. I can´t think of any ancient civilisation that didn´t put the healers or the medicine men on a bit of a pedestal. Like it or not. Its no different to the chief or the strongest fighter having the pick of the best women and food. Human nature.

[Clockwork]

I don't have to like it, you may well be correct. People are funny brids and there are still people today that believe in all sorts of mumbo jumbo but that doesn't mean that the mumbo jumbo is of any benefit to society.

If you don't repect the Witch Doctor, he'll make your knob drop off. If your a king with a festering wound and no one else can help of course you're going to seek the services of a Doctor, what have you got to loose? What has the Doctor got to gain if he can convince the King he is in fact making things better?

[mashman]

Some people could never make it as a Doctor, Lawyer, Brain Surgeon, Company Director. Some people are smarter than others. Communism doesn´t work, fact.

You don´t think a doctor is more valuable to society than a labourer?? You´d change your mind if you were sick.

A doctor could probably do a half decent job of making a shelter, a labourer wouldn´t be able to remove an appendix.


Why not? Because someone is smarter? It takes knowledge, that's all. You're right, communism doesn't going far enough, because it still relies on some form of reward system. Get over the need for a reward system and accept that your basic needs are going to be met and you have something entirely different. Something that would also include the ability to have toys and stuff.

The bin man is more valuable to society than a Doctor. As mentioned, until you need a Doctor, they're useless. The Labourers skills are more transferable from job to job. So yeah, I'd say they were more valuable.

Why wouldn't a labourer be able to remove an appendix? They're already good with tools and understand how to follow instructions. Where's the problem, other than lack of experience?